Install Raid for Free ✅ IOS: clcr.me/Tpoyhg ✅ ANDROID: clcr.me/rXwNbS ✅ PC: clcr.me/1WgClp and get a special starter pack 💥Available only for the next 30 days BTW, I have a new podcast called "Flashback" on Relay FM. We talk about old, failed tech and what we can learn from it. Check it out! relay.fm/flashback
You live in the wrong country, here in Spain we pay about 60 US$/Month for a 600Mbps fibre simetrical bandwith (no transfer cap) and we never pay for the installation fee.
Alex they do there was a RUclipsr with around 350k subs that refused to do an ad placement cause he hates mobile games but they were willing to pay 4 grand..... His whole video was about talking how bad RAID shadow legends is and stuff
I agree with a good bit of what you present, but here's a bit more input: LTO isn't really "open" anymore since only IBM designs and manufactures the drives since LTO-7. Any SAS Tape drive can be a Thunderbolt tape drive, all that mLogic has done is hide the adapter in the case. LTO tapes are good for tens of thousands of accesses, not a hundred or so. We have LTO-1 tapes in our lab that have over 10,000 full passes and even old DDS-1 tapes (1990-ish) that have closer to 50K write/read passes. When you say "the software" keeps track of the file's location on tape, clarify that the LTFS drivers keep track of that. Yoyatta ID depends on the LTFS layer for tape access. Access times on an LTO 7 or 8 tape is under 5 minutes (LTO-6 and 5 are under 4 minutes). This means that software that truly manages the tape layer can locate even a 500 byte email file and start the restore in under 5 minutes. Be aware that a power loss during tape writing with any LTFS-based solution will result in a completely corrupted tape, not just the data that was being written at the point of failure. It would be better to perform the backups from the native file system on the TruNAS/FreeNAS host (Margaret?) rather than via CIFS and the network. You lose filesystem metadata when you do it that way. Just a bit of feedback based on 35 years in the backup business.
He should hopefully have a UPS that can last for at least long enough to shut down the storage server gracefully in the event of a power failure. Hooking the tape drive up to that will help ensure graceful power failure there too
@@emu071981 The issue is the write to the tape and the unmounting of the LTFS volume. It's more than just a power interruption. The power loss manager must be able to tell Yoyatta to close the current write and then unmount/eject the tape before shutting things down. This is an LTFS weakness, not a problem in Yoyatta ID.
@@Adam-de8jm Because the LTFS index partition and the EOD marker on the data partition can't be updated in such an event, we've seen a lot of tapes that required very extensive deep recovery runs to get "any" data back off of the tape. Other backup apps like tar, pax, cpio, and bru use the tape as the sequential beast that it is and the worst that happens is the file that was being written at the failure point is incomplete. All of the other data written to that point may be restored with no special handling of the tape.
Tape drives before LTO-6 (maybe including LTO-6 now) are a lot cheaper. I purchased a used Quantum LTO-5 from ebay at several hundred dollars, and it worked without any issue. Do use brand new tapes for data storage (actually LTO tapes have a chip inside, which records the read/write statistics.). You will need to wait for some enterprises to update their hardware and sell the outdated ones on ebay.
@@Test-bi5rg yeah, I think I paid like 20 bucks for my LTO-2 tape drive. The cheapest drives are the internal ones which are SCSI over LVD so you need a serial interface controller card but the setup is very clean when set up. Just like a regular DVD drive in your PC, except it's a tape drive.
You cannot lose a Raid Shadow Legends sponsor.... seriously YTers have tried but because them meme the ad themeselves RSL don't care. Any exposure is good exposure
Snazzy Labs is quickly approaching a singularity wherein the rate at which they shoot video to explain their video storage solutions outpaces their ability to acquire new storage for the additional videos.
As an enterprise IT sysadmin - THANK YOU for showing that tape is the thing to use for backups and not jerry-rig solutions like Linus has done for his projects. Tape is cheap, and as long as you label your tapes properly and have a good application for managing it, it's super flexible. Very nice video! :D
I thought that Linus made one video about tape storage once? But yeah, it's really interesting! If I did require a backup, I'd probably try to do tape as well (as one of them).
@@snazzy next thing you need to do is figure out your off-site data storage. My ex-employer (looong time ago, when DDS was a thing) rented a small bank vault for that. I visited it weekly (or was it daily?) replacing backups.
Finally, someone does a video on the current day tape storage technology. All my mates look me as a caveman when I talked with them about the enormous storage space current type can provide.
I love tape and absolutely wouldn't replace that over more fault tolerance since it's not a solution but i keep asking myself why not use one vdev with 24 drives and raid z3? more storage anyway.
I'm not sure what that was about, but I've been using LTO tapes for years in enterprise applications and have never heard of OS X support or that odd piece of software. Every enterprise backup solution in the past 15 years has full support for LTO tape backup storage devices. Including free open source solutions like Bacula - which would have easily ran on his HP DL380 Gen 8 back there. Having said that, an Apple Mac mini is not enterprise grade, not redundant, no out-of-band management and is completely out of place in that regard - but it is A LOT CHEAPER then an actual enterprise solution if for some reason he didn't want to co-host a backup solution on that rack server he already has running.
@Franz Xaver Fuchsberger The Mac Pro is a server grade machine. Every design decision other than the desktop case itself (they sell the same exact thing in a rack mount case) has server use in mind. Hex channel, ECC memory. GPU SKUs that undergo workstation+server validation. Extended IO (PCIe Multiplexing) that doesn't restrict what IO you can use. Passive heatsinks on processors, active case cooling. Proprietary PSU configuration to facilitate the addition, removal, or replacement of hardware (MPX modules). Dedicated hardware acceleration module (Afterburner card). Twin 10GbE ports. Hell, the best argument for your side is that the Xeon W chips are marketed as high end workstation chips. But that's a tad disingenuous, as the specific subset that Apple is using are derived from Xeon Scalable processors, just without the scalable features.
Most tape media is guaranteed for around 30 years. I've seen older tapes in service. I say that media should be temporary if data is to be permanent. Newer media is always denser and faster. Copying old data to new media every 20 years or so would be a great practice.
@@rehoboth_farm What about VCR tape. Most of that is now unrecoverable. (I know it can still be recovered but a process to do so is no longer economy feasible.)
@@jeposton VHS tape is not made to the same standards that certified media like LTO or other backup media are. A few years ago I worked in the seismic industry and we were still using a lot of DLT IV tape media that was first available in the mid 90's so it is a contemporary of VHS. We also used older media. We had an occasional failure on tapes that had been used over and over again that were very old. I spent many hours dismantling tape drives and trying to save tapes. I've put more than one into a waste basket. Luckily we normally had more than one copy or were able to reproduce it from earlier versions of the data. Ultimately the reason that we began moving it all to newer media was because it took so much more space to store and was so time intensive to read and write the old media. At the time we chose LTO5 because it was the best price/size storage for our needs including drive cost, server/interface card cost, etc. LTO6 had come out but was still VERY expensive. The quality of a high end storage tape like an LTO is much better technology now than it was on DLT tape from the 90's and it was head and shoulders better quality than video tape. However, to your point I always preached that media had to be temporary if Data was to be permanent. All media eventually fails and must be replaced even if it is on a 20 year cycle. It is a cost/performance/longevity and other factors type of problem. Cost is a really big deal. Now you can buy an LTO8 cartridges for about $150. That is 30TB of storage space if your data compresses well. How is that cost compared to equal hard disk space? Then compare it to RAID 6 storage. Another huge consideration is that if you already own a bunch of LTO 5 drives and tapes why would you want to go spend a bunch of money to replace them with LTO 8 if it is all working just fine? One great thing about the LTO format tapes is that the drives will usually read 2 previous generations and be able to write one previous generation. So an LTO 5 can read and write an LTO 4 and read and LTO 3. This really can help in upgrades and tape copies. You can also still buy a brand new LTO 5 tape drive and tape. This is because industrial types of equipment like this have a longer expected life span. Of course ALL media has issues. CDs and DVDs have their share of issues. Hard disks will demagnetize and have mechanical failure. Tape has been an industry standard long term bulk backup solution in various iterations going back to the 60's. There has been an enormous amount of engineering involved. It isn't going away anytime soon. All of the largest companies in the world use this solution. What is your solution? How would you backup a few petabytes of data that can't be compressed? Could you guarantee the media for 20 years? If you have a better way then you should talk to IBM or Quantum. I hope the information helps.
We use LTO tapes in television. I think all TV's use them to store movies and archive. News room use rack mount multi LTO rack, but in main TV there are LTO Robot room for that. So it change tapes automaticly.
A business internet provider. Residential internet is much cheaper here in the USA but our office is in a business park so we're stuck with paying the big bucks.
You’re literally the only person creating content on here that I watch every video from. You cannot make bad content and the improvements in production quality have shown up more and more over time. They’re generally family friendly and I can show them without reservation to others. Please keep this up. Seriously. A+.
In one scene: "Are you bored yet?" In next scene: grabs lighter to open box Me: "Getting more interesting. This is definitely not going to end well." Thinks about getting popcorn.
Hey interesting fact/experience I just had with ZFS.... We lost our OS drive to a power loss, thought all the data was gone (luckily we hadnt really started using it yet) Got a new Drive, reinstalled CentOs and ZFS, and I was able to import in the Zpool like nothing happened at all, data intact! TLDR: You an completely replace and reinstall the OS Drive and your Zpool will remain (if nothing wrong with the drives)
True! Super neat. We had something similar because we're booting our server off of an SD card (really, really not ideal, but HP prevents non-HP booting in their BIOS) and lost the SD card but one more install with FreeNAS and it imported our pool and all prior settings in a jiffy!
I like that FreeBSD allows you to boot from ZFS, making a separate OS drive unnecessary. From what I understand this is also possible in some Linux distros, but is perhaps more complicated to configure.
so video starts at 6:00 and the benefit of the cheap tape is way offset by the huge cost of the LTO rack reader and only breaks even after 400 tb and the tapes have to be swapped whenever you want to read from them unlike always online hard drives. Interesting information but -1 as a solution.
Noooo. The solution is to use the *RAID* drive array. This technology can create copies over multiple drives, kinda like the *shadows* of the original data. The technology is quite *legend*-ary
NO ONE in my life pulled me that strong to the video before. For over 6 years of my youtube usage I've never watched a video for 20 minutes and listen to it.
Here in Moscow, Russia, we can (and pretty much everybody) have 100mbps FIBER for about 7 bucks+ a month. 200 from ~15$. And Alex Brin called us a "snowy Nigeria" 0_0
While available, can the average person, who is not well off, afford that? You're talking in dollars, which seems cheap to people in America, but aren't to a large portion of the world.
im in the boonies in canada and i pay $350 for tv, phone and internet and i have the fastest internet i can get. i top out at 400 kb/s download (5 mbit)
One downside to LTO is that drives only maintain backwards compatibility about 2 generations back, so you need to keep shifting your data to newer tapes over time (as newer LTO versions come out) or risk not being able to read them back in. The movie industry is facing this problem with digital element archiving.
Actually, it's not too big of a deal. With the robotic tape library system they can read the tapes from one library and then save it to another library with newer tape drives. I totally agree that tapes should be rotated to newer format every few years to make them readable in the future.
If you're not permanently archiving data, but just rotating tapes for backups, sure. But if you are using it to archive data long-term (like movie/video elements), it does become a problem as you create more and more data to add the archives.
You didn't mention the biggest advantage of tape over spinning disk hard drive, tape is immune to vibrations. Spinning disks have a chance of shattering in transport when moved to off-site locations
We used to book motorcycle couriers to zoom our "fresh out of the drive" system dump to our off-site backup servers. All as a test of our failover procedures. I would be worried about a HDD surviving that.
Tape is a pretty standard storage medium still. My friend worked in an animation house (one contracted out to do scenes for hollywood films). They had an offsite backup- incase of fire, theft etc, all tape storage, in constant use.
Why in the hell did you not just buy a 1U rack shelf instead of that stupid unit you got ?! These things are 10 times less expensive and will let air pass better to keep that choking Mac mini cooler
All you need to do now is a tape based archive wall robot ( something similar to the tape robot from hacker’s movie) that instead of the standard tape go solid states
Focus is shady sometimes during the video :( I love your videos very much, when you upload I drop everything and watch your video so please take this as constructive criticism.
Good call on LTO as a storage medium. Can that Mac Mini feed the tape fast enough to avoid "shoe shining" the tape (and causing excessive tape and head wear)? Also, I'm not sure I understand your argument for Thunderbolt vs SAS connection (SAS is more standard), but whatever works. Nice job. Also, 1U is 1 3/4".
When I worked for Bull Information Systems twenty years ago we called hard disks online storage, backup tape was off-line storage and tape-based indexed backups were called NEARLINE. So that's what you have there - perfect nearline storage! Fabulous video btw - it gives a real insight into your operation. Thanks.
Thank you for this awesome guide! I find your videos are more and more informative and helpful in setting up something complicated. This is especially true for your recent AMD Hackintosh DIY!! Luv it! Great job Snazzy Labs! With your wonderful content, no doubt you will run out of storage soon!!
yeah it really must be stressful being able to record anything you want and knowing all you have to do is post it to the internet to rake in 6 figure(if not 7) net profits per year, while not leaving your own house. i couldn't imagine a more stressful job. /sarcasm
While I’m not saying it’s easy, he’s making copious amounts of money from doing all of this (as evident by the thousands in equipment shown in just this 1 video)
you should have just bought a 1u rack shelf for your mac mini - you dont need that sonnet pos. why do you need a mac pro to remote in to the mac mini? surely you can remote in from anywhere on your network? a better set up (if yoyotta supported agents) would be a direct connection from margaret to the tape drives, and margaret running a software agent - no mac mini in the middle, and all yoyotta does is kick off the job on a schedule and tells the agent backup up those directories to this tape drive. this architecture would be simpler and require less network bandwidth generated from moving all the file around between margaret and the mac mini.
Ha ha ha(laugh in Romanian) 10 euro for 1Gbps internet speeds and this is for consumers. Businesses pay more as they have contracts that specify that their bandwidth is guaranteed.
I think some households in Sweden get 10 GBit/s for ~50€/month and mind you Sweden has much higher wages too. Meanwhile, here in Germany I would need to pay 55€/month (up from 45€/month) for 175 MBit/s max down over my current ~96 with an unchanged upload speed of between 30 and 40 MBit/s. Just great. All that over a centuries old former telephone line, because our conservative party in the 80's ignored the expert's suggestions to broadly roll out fiber and CATV as a minimum for rural areas. Some people get less than 2 MBit/s till this day, even over cellular data. Sad. At least, most plans are uncapped when it comes to fixed broadband. Our cellular is either capped, very expensive (like >100€/month) or non-existent, because of lack of competition and corresponding laws… Mind you, 1 GBit/s is the max you normally can get in Germany apart from some very select few thousand households in either Metropolitan or Hinterland areas, while in outer countries this is already considered "the minimum" for most - at least those who want and can afford it. Most of that over some >110€/month fiber or CATV which is not nearly as stable or low-latency. Always feels so bad watching someone download over Gigabit/s lines with like 120 MB/s from Steam, when you are lucky to get 11 on most days. Hearing my parents say 12 MBit/s down with 2,3 MBit/s up is "fast" just a few years back was even worse…
After seeing this, I really want you to do a video on data organization/management... That YoYatta software looks very interesting for streamlining the workflow of pulling images/videos of memory cards and doing some organization for you.
I’ve sold backup solutions for years into the enterprise environment. Observations: - Tape is cheap but very slow to retrieve and subject to all kinds of degradation attacks. Any magnetic field in the vicinity. HVAC failure can destroy tapes. Mechanism failures can stretch, crinkle or break tapes. Putting in the wrong tape and accidentally writing over previous data. After 10 years or less the binder dries out so oxide falls off the tape making it unreadable. ...and much more. - Optical storage has none of those drawbacks, is rated for much higher longevity plus It’s much easier to handle and can be automated if needed.
LTO tapes are sometimes a nightmare to do a recovery on. it all depends on what software you use for back up. We use EMC Networker for out robotic tape library and it was a nightmare to do some recoveries.
Yeah but his upload speed is really crap as he already noted. Then you have to truly believe the Google won't use your personal data without telling you. They're not living up to the whole trust factor given their shady practices.
Pretty standard stuff if you need to absolutely NOT loose data. For me its RAW photos among other things and a TIFF can easily be a couple of GB. Tapes are basically consumables, you take a new one, write it full with data and trow it into a tape library, bank vault or shelf and never look at it again. They are really not meant to be used frequently. And if you want a random file on it it can take tens of minutes so you could as well dump the entire tape and search it on your hard drive.
I don't work with servers, have never seen a server up close, I will likely never buy a server, yet I found this video to be incredibly interesting. Thanks for making an interesting video about servers.
The internet prices in USA are just crazy. In my country (altough in a small part of it for now) you can get a symmetrical 10Gb/s connection for like $33 a month
I don't know what was the biggest money waste: if it was the Mac mini server rack mount (just put it on top of something) or if it was the dedicated monitor for it (just VNC or ARD into it for god's sake!)
Depends on the source volume and the archival software. As long as your source volume can provide a sustained 3800MB/sec stream, you'll write to an lto-7 or LTO-8 tape at just over 1TB/hour. So, yes, filling a 12TB LTO-8 tape "will" take 12 hours. But, you'd be in worse shape doing the same write to a 12TB Exos drive at 120MB/sec (less than 500GB/hour).
download RAID shadow legends now and get a hot goth gf for real tho, I've been waiting for an in depth video about magnetic tape viability for archival storage for a while
I should purchase a +300.000 subs channel with viewer bots and maybe I will get a sponsorship from them 😂 I heard they pay like 4000-7000$ for a single advertisement
You can format LTO tapes (I think from LTO5 and up) with LTFS. This is a file system that allows you to use it like a HDD. The tape is partitioned into 2 areas, one for file metadata and one for the data itself. This allows the location of each file to be know and the drive will wind to that location to fetch the file. Storing a new file is as simple as mounting the tape as a drive and dropping the file onto it. The only downside is that you must wait for the tape drive to seek to the files you wish to get (thats not terribly slow anyway) and when you delete a file the file is not erased from the tape. The area of tape the file occupied is simply not used again. To claim that space back the tape will need reformatting.
Tape is cheap. But tape drives are $$$$$. It's only worth it for backing up dozens of TB. Otherwise, just buy a few 14 TB hard drives and a hot swap backplane.
And music levels. Okay okay, I'll shut up now. Sorry. Sorry. I do like watching your videos. I appreciate that you tend to put a massive amount of effort into them, and lots of cool hardware too.
Install Raid for Free ✅ IOS: clcr.me/Tpoyhg ✅ ANDROID: clcr.me/rXwNbS ✅ PC: clcr.me/1WgClp and get a special starter pack 💥Available only for the next 30 days
BTW, I have a new podcast called "Flashback" on Relay FM. We talk about old, failed tech and what we can learn from it. Check it out! relay.fm/flashback
We lost our lovely friend Quinn to the dark side of Raid™ shadow legends
well if i was subed i would unsub. raid is from china. do u want corona-chan on your phone?
get a steadicam or stabilizer man... I am about to throw up.
I fucking hate raid shadow league and thair shitty add
You live in the wrong country, here in Spain we pay about 60 US$/Month for a 600Mbps fibre simetrical bandwith (no transfer cap) and we never pay for the installation fee.
Not even Snazzy is safe from RAID shadow legends
🤑
F
I've heard they pay really well and it's not hard at all for me to skip over it, so at this point I just don't notice.
You know what else costs $200?
Alex they do there was a RUclipsr with around 350k subs that refused to do an ad placement cause he hates mobile games but they were willing to pay 4 grand.....
His whole video was about talking how bad RAID shadow legends is and stuff
I agree with a good bit of what you present, but here's a bit more input:
LTO isn't really "open" anymore since only IBM designs and manufactures the drives since LTO-7.
Any SAS Tape drive can be a Thunderbolt tape drive, all that mLogic has done is hide the adapter in the case.
LTO tapes are good for tens of thousands of accesses, not a hundred or so. We have LTO-1 tapes in our lab that have over 10,000 full passes and even old DDS-1 tapes (1990-ish) that have closer to 50K write/read passes.
When you say "the software" keeps track of the file's location on tape, clarify that the LTFS drivers keep track of that. Yoyatta ID depends on the LTFS layer for tape access.
Access times on an LTO 7 or 8 tape is under 5 minutes (LTO-6 and 5 are under 4 minutes). This means that software that truly manages the tape layer can locate even a 500 byte email file and start the restore in under 5 minutes.
Be aware that a power loss during tape writing with any LTFS-based solution will result in a completely corrupted tape, not just the data that was being written at the point of failure.
It would be better to perform the backups from the native file system on the TruNAS/FreeNAS host (Margaret?) rather than via CIFS and the network. You lose filesystem metadata when you do it that way.
Just a bit of feedback based on 35 years in the backup business.
He should hopefully have a UPS that can last for at least long enough to shut down the storage server gracefully in the event of a power failure. Hooking the tape drive up to that will help ensure graceful power failure there too
Shut up nerd
@@emu071981 The issue is the write to the tape and the unmounting of the LTFS volume. It's more than just a power interruption. The power loss manager must be able to tell Yoyatta to close the current write and then unmount/eject the tape before shutting things down. This is an LTFS weakness, not a problem in Yoyatta ID.
Oh god I can already see that janky power button turning off the computer in the middle of a backup and bricking the drive.
@@Adam-de8jm Because the LTFS index partition and the EOD marker on the data partition can't be updated in such an event, we've seen a lot of tapes that required very extensive deep recovery runs to get "any" data back off of the tape. Other backup apps like tar, pax, cpio, and bru use the tape as the sequential beast that it is and the worst that happens is the file that was being written at the failure point is incomplete. All of the other data written to that point may be restored with no special handling of the tape.
I have a solution: Raid Sha.... Skip
Yeah. Poo
@@amiri7392 200? rookie number
That sponser money...
The new RAID disk configuration, available today!
I've always wanted to get into tape, but the drive cost is too prohibitive for me atm
Can't blame you. Not a cheap enterprise.
EBAY bro. EBAY. Old drives from last gen? They are $39 bucks. And Old tapes? CHEAP!
@@MickeyMishra really? can you recommend a specific one bro?
Tape drives before LTO-6 (maybe including LTO-6 now) are a lot cheaper. I purchased a used Quantum LTO-5 from ebay at several hundred dollars, and it worked without any issue. Do use brand new tapes for data storage (actually LTO tapes have a chip inside, which records the read/write statistics.). You will need to wait for some enterprises to update their hardware and sell the outdated ones on ebay.
@@Test-bi5rg yeah, I think I paid like 20 bucks for my LTO-2 tape drive. The cheapest drives are the internal ones which are SCSI over LVD so you need a serial interface controller card but the setup is very clean when set up. Just like a regular DVD drive in your PC, except it's a tape drive.
Wow. Keeping me glued for 20 minutes with in-depth explanations without being boring seriously needs credit.
Thanks!!
For real! Quinn is great!
yea, when he said "are you bored yet?" it really threw me off because I was entranced!
Agreed, not patronising, not over my head.
@@MaxUgly I didnt even notice him say are you bored yet
People: going crazy over raid shadow legends
Me: did he just try to remove tape by lighting it on fire?
Same. He carries a lighter but not a pocketknife? Lol
Didn’t take him as a smoker till I seen that
I’m not lol. Lighter was above my gear shelf on my 3D printer.
@Radu Arsenie forget about the cardboard box, he tried to remove TAPE by lighting it on FIRE.
@Critical Unity CRITICAL HIT!
"you know what else costs 200$? an addiction to raid sha..." *coughs because he almost lost his sponsor lol
@@Top_Cheeze It was actually a joke and not part of the ad.
You cannot lose a Raid Shadow Legends sponsor.... seriously YTers have tried but because them meme the ad themeselves RSL don't care. Any exposure is good exposure
@@Top_Cheeze lmaooo please don't tell me you are this blind to humor.
@@Icessassin A German RUclipsr literally said that this game is boring and got the cash
@@AlexandersMashups I know
Snazzy Labs is quickly approaching a singularity wherein the rate at which they shoot video to explain their video storage solutions outpaces their ability to acquire new storage for the additional videos.
As an enterprise IT sysadmin - THANK YOU for showing that tape is the thing to use for backups and not jerry-rig solutions like Linus has done for his projects. Tape is cheap, and as long as you label your tapes properly and have a good application for managing it, it's super flexible. Very nice video! :D
Thanks!! Hoping to get a library soon.
I thought that Linus made one video about tape storage once? But yeah, it's really interesting! If I did require a backup, I'd probably try to do tape as well (as one of them).
@@snazzy next thing you need to do is figure out your off-site data storage. My ex-employer (looong time ago, when DDS was a thing) rented a small bank vault for that. I visited it weekly (or was it daily?) replacing backups.
Yep! As a former sysadmin this brings back memories of storing tapes in vaults and inserting new ones every single day :)
You ain't taking backup seriously unless your tapes are stored in disused cold war bunkers.. VMS & DLT tapes FTW ;-D
6:40
*To Add : You can initialise new LTO-7 tape cartridges as type-M in a LTO-8 drive giving 9TB capacity for the same price or 0.004$/GB.
Quinn: This is a very expensive box
Also Quinn, 10 seconds ago: *Trying to burn the package down with a lighter*
Finally, someone does a video on the current day tape storage technology. All my mates look me as a caveman when I talked with them about the enormous storage space current type can provide.
RAIDZ2: Vdev Legends
I’m dead 😂 😂
I love tape and absolutely wouldn't replace that over more fault tolerance since it's not a solution but i keep asking myself why not use one vdev with 24 drives and raid z3? more storage anyway.
To be announced LTO-14 tape boasts 576 TB uncompressed or 1.44 PB compressed. Where I heard that number before? oh right 1.44 MB floppy disc.
Quinn: This video is sponsored by Ra-
Me: KING CRIMSON!!!
me: STICKY FINGERS!!
You are truly cultured
Me : *screams "fuck off"* *reports this video as spam*
KIRA QUEEN DAISON NO BAKUDAN BITEZ ZA DUSTO
@@Kostas_Ountsis you rewind the video
>primary motivator is cost
>everything is apple
[x] doubt
I'm not sure what that was about, but I've been using LTO tapes for years in enterprise applications and have never heard of OS X support or that odd piece of software.
Every enterprise backup solution in the past 15 years has full support for LTO tape backup storage devices. Including free open source solutions like Bacula - which would have easily ran on his HP DL380 Gen 8 back there.
Having said that, an Apple Mac mini is not enterprise grade, not redundant, no out-of-band management and is completely out of place in that regard - but it is A LOT CHEAPER then an actual enterprise solution if for some reason he didn't want to co-host a backup solution on that rack server he already has running.
did this comment come from 2005 or what
@@cashnelson2306 isn't that cheese grater apple computer horribly expensive?
@@nimistar01 Compared to prosumer machines and EPYC, yes. Compared to other server grade systems, not really, no.
@Franz Xaver Fuchsberger The Mac Pro is a server grade machine. Every design decision other than the desktop case itself (they sell the same exact thing in a rack mount case) has server use in mind.
Hex channel, ECC memory.
GPU SKUs that undergo workstation+server validation.
Extended IO (PCIe Multiplexing) that doesn't restrict what IO you can use.
Passive heatsinks on processors, active case cooling.
Proprietary PSU configuration to facilitate the addition, removal, or replacement of hardware (MPX modules).
Dedicated hardware acceleration module (Afterburner card).
Twin 10GbE ports.
Hell, the best argument for your side is that the Xeon W chips are marketed as high end workstation chips. But that's a tad disingenuous, as the specific subset that Apple is using are derived from Xeon Scalable processors, just without the scalable features.
7:08 "their magnetic so they last forever.
No, they last a long time but will fail eventually. Floppy discs are a prime example of this.
Floppy's are closer to hard drives than tape.
Most tape media is guaranteed for around 30 years. I've seen older tapes in service. I say that media should be temporary if data is to be permanent. Newer media is always denser and faster. Copying old data to new media every 20 years or so would be a great practice.
@@rehoboth_farm What about VCR tape. Most of that is now unrecoverable. (I know it can still be recovered but a process to do so is no longer economy feasible.)
@@jeposton VHS tape is not made to the same standards that certified media like LTO or other backup media are.
A few years ago I worked in the seismic industry and we were still using a lot of DLT IV tape media that was first available in the mid 90's so it is a contemporary of VHS. We also used older media. We had an occasional failure on tapes that had been used over and over again that were very old. I spent many hours dismantling tape drives and trying to save tapes. I've put more than one into a waste basket. Luckily we normally had more than one copy or were able to reproduce it from earlier versions of the data.
Ultimately the reason that we began moving it all to newer media was because it took so much more space to store and was so time intensive to read and write the old media. At the time we chose LTO5 because it was the best price/size storage for our needs including drive cost, server/interface card cost, etc. LTO6 had come out but was still VERY expensive. The quality of a high end storage tape like an LTO is much better technology now than it was on DLT tape from the 90's and it was head and shoulders better quality than video tape.
However, to your point I always preached that media had to be temporary if Data was to be permanent. All media eventually fails and must be replaced even if it is on a 20 year cycle. It is a cost/performance/longevity and other factors type of problem.
Cost is a really big deal. Now you can buy an LTO8 cartridges for about $150. That is 30TB of storage space if your data compresses well. How is that cost compared to equal hard disk space? Then compare it to RAID 6 storage. Another huge consideration is that if you already own a bunch of LTO 5 drives and tapes why would you want to go spend a bunch of money to replace them with LTO 8 if it is all working just fine?
One great thing about the LTO format tapes is that the drives will usually read 2 previous generations and be able to write one previous generation. So an LTO 5 can read and write an LTO 4 and read and LTO 3. This really can help in upgrades and tape copies. You can also still buy a brand new LTO 5 tape drive and tape. This is because industrial types of equipment like this have a longer expected life span.
Of course ALL media has issues. CDs and DVDs have their share of issues. Hard disks will demagnetize and have mechanical failure. Tape has been an industry standard long term bulk backup solution in various iterations going back to the 60's. There has been an enormous amount of engineering involved. It isn't going away anytime soon.
All of the largest companies in the world use this solution. What is your solution? How would you backup a few petabytes of data that can't be compressed? Could you guarantee the media for 20 years? If you have a better way then you should talk to IBM or Quantum.
I hope the information helps.
@@rehoboth_farm Thanks.
We use LTO tapes in television. I think all TV's use them to store movies and archive. News room use rack mount multi LTO rack, but in main TV there are LTO Robot room for that. So it change tapes automaticly.
This time you outlinused Linus on backups
He has already doing a video on this.
Doesnt he have like a 3 Petobyte one
Edit: 1 Petobyte
@@oren8699 Petobyte
@@oren8699 Petobyte
no he didnt linus does backups with tapes for a while now
Me: Lets out a big *sigh*
“Are you bored yet?”
Me: wtf
he knows lol
What the hell? I pay 30$ per month for my fiber connection for 50 up and 50 down! In Pakistan!
What kind of internet provider is this??
Umer Salman it’s just North American crap we have to deal with.
A business internet provider. Residential internet is much cheaper here in the USA but our office is in a business park so we're stuck with paying the big bucks.
Well
I pay 39€ per Month (how is the course currently?) in Germany for ~0.3 mbit/s down 0.1 up
But well, we are a special case :D
$14/month for 100mbps down 4mbps up... Not sure if it's a good deal.
Lol, 10 bucks for 100/100 here in Czech Rep
You’re literally the only person creating content on here that I watch every video from. You cannot make bad content and the improvements in production quality have shown up more and more over time. They’re generally family friendly and I can show them without reservation to others. Please keep this up. Seriously. A+.
Thank you so much!
Did he just say YOLO in 2020?
*Subscribed*
😂
Yeah. So what if he did?
Hello Kitty Lover Man! Not many people say it anymore
Hmm, @@TechnoLadz, that's mildly interesting.
I still say it sometimes when I go out on a limb with something I don’t trust
In one scene: "Are you bored yet?"
In next scene: grabs lighter to open box
Me: "Getting more interesting. This is definitely not going to end well." Thinks about getting popcorn.
Next scene: "This is a VERY expensive and overpriced box."
A lighter is definitely the right tool to use.
@@TheNewTimeNetwork Right tool for the right job. What could possibly go wrong? (munches on popcorn)
Hey interesting fact/experience I just had with ZFS....
We lost our OS drive to a power loss, thought all the data was gone (luckily we hadnt really started using it yet) Got a new Drive, reinstalled CentOs and ZFS, and I was able to import in the Zpool like nothing happened at all, data intact!
TLDR:
You an completely replace and reinstall the OS Drive and your Zpool will remain (if nothing wrong with the drives)
True! Super neat. We had something similar because we're booting our server off of an SD card (really, really not ideal, but HP prevents non-HP booting in their BIOS) and lost the SD card but one more install with FreeNAS and it imported our pool and all prior settings in a jiffy!
@@snazzy yea btw....save any config files you can especially if using CentOs! It definitely came in handy for custom settings (non ZFS settings)!
I like that FreeBSD allows you to boot from ZFS, making a separate OS drive unnecessary. From what I understand this is also possible in some Linux distros, but is perhaps more complicated to configure.
well, duh, that's why you go software RAID route instead hardware RAID route
so video starts at 6:00 and the benefit of the cheap tape is way offset by the huge cost of the LTO rack reader and only breaks even after 400 tb and the tapes have to be swapped whenever you want to read from them unlike always online hard drives. Interesting information but -1 as a solution.
Snazzy: "I have a solution"
*Raid: Shadow Legends ad*
me: "So your solution is to play... Raid Shadow Legends...???"
Does it playable on tape
Of fucking course not
@@MuhammadIlhamuodd254512 u englis not gud
@@harvey4385 bruh get out
Noooo. The solution is to use the *RAID* drive array. This technology can create copies over multiple drives, kinda like the *shadows* of the original data. The technology is quite *legend*-ary
wait an ad? your on youtube with out an adblocker? u dumb so dumb
NO ONE in my life pulled me that strong to the video before. For over 6 years of my youtube usage I've never watched a video for 20 minutes and listen to it.
Here in Moscow, Russia, we can (and pretty much everybody) have 100mbps FIBER for about 7 bucks+ a month. 200 from ~15$.
And Alex Brin called us a "snowy Nigeria"
0_0
While available, can the average person, who is not well off, afford that? You're talking in dollars, which seems cheap to people in America, but aren't to a large portion of the world.
Ping from your Swedish neighbour here, got 1000/1000 fiber and a backup cable 500/50
Auto Pi afford internet for 7$? Sorry, what? Of course yes
@@David-nh7px sure. Even for those who are on the edge of poverty it's not a huge deal.
im in the boonies in canada and i pay $350 for tv, phone and internet and i have the fastest internet i can get. i top out at 400 kb/s download (5 mbit)
One downside to LTO is that drives only maintain backwards compatibility about 2 generations back, so you need to keep shifting your data to newer tapes over time (as newer LTO versions come out) or risk not being able to read them back in. The movie industry is facing this problem with digital element archiving.
Actually, it's not too big of a deal. With the robotic tape library system they can read the tapes from one library and then save it to another library with newer tape drives. I totally agree that tapes should be rotated to newer format every few years to make them readable in the future.
If you're not permanently archiving data, but just rotating tapes for backups, sure. But if you are using it to archive data long-term (like movie/video elements), it does become a problem as you create more and more data to add the archives.
13:06 I'd put some 3-in-1 oil on the spindle that little arm is sitting on to see if that let it release.
Fiber in Spain is 1 GigaBit for around 50€ (55$) in the biggest and most known company here. 600$ for fiber is a big pain in the ass.
And the installation is free.
Working at a corporate datacenter, we have an absolute fortune invested in LT06 tapes for long-term storage.
You didn't mention the biggest advantage of tape over spinning disk hard drive, tape is immune to vibrations. Spinning disks have a chance of shattering in transport when moved to off-site locations
We used to book motorcycle couriers to zoom our "fresh out of the drive" system dump to our off-site backup servers. All as a test of our failover procedures. I would be worried about a HDD surviving that.
once again, raid shadow legends proceeds with their quest to sponsor all the youtubers. GOTTA CATCH THEM ALL
Exept @Dankpods!
Tape is a pretty standard storage medium still. My friend worked in an animation house (one contracted out to do scenes for hollywood films). They had an offsite backup- incase of fire, theft etc, all tape storage, in constant use.
I'm sure they have a cool robotic tape library system. $$$ but worth it!
"this years, 2018 mac mini"
I suggest using a Dell ML series machine. They are built to use Tape media and they can hold a ton of physical tapes.
Why in the hell did you not just buy a 1U rack shelf instead of that stupid unit you got ?! These things are 10 times less expensive and will let air pass better to keep that choking Mac mini cooler
Ya but they're not cute.
Future expansion, and minimizing footprint.
It’s a about the button pusher!
No I serious, how annoying would it be to have to do a hard reset if it was on a rack self
And cooling, Apple will tell you it’s not needed! Thermal throttling is a feature not a flaw
Edward Lucas Just turn it backwards. There's nothing on the front of a Mac Mini anyway
why didn't I learn from tape BEFORE...thanks for sharing !!!
What the hell happened to the focus on this video? It's like you recorded it with a phone that had issues getting things on first plane.
I'm pretty sure they're doing manual focus in this video.
All you need to do now is a tape based archive wall robot ( something similar to the tape robot from hacker’s movie) that instead of the standard tape go solid states
Focus is shady sometimes during the video :(
I love your videos very much, when you upload I drop everything and watch your video so please take this as constructive criticism.
Noted. Will improve. Thanks!
Your explanations and enthusiasm keeps me glued to your videos.
Why not use backblaze b2 and mail in your data?
Do they mail it back when you need it? When you need the lot of it that is. (31 TB)
@@dlarge6502 Yep, they do, and they even do it for free if you ship back the HDD
When I watch you videos I feel smarter, and snazzier! Thanks man. I hopefully I never have to solve a problem like this.
Good call on LTO as a storage medium. Can that Mac Mini feed the tape fast enough to avoid "shoe shining" the tape (and causing excessive tape and head wear)? Also, I'm not sure I understand your argument for Thunderbolt vs SAS connection (SAS is more standard), but whatever works. Nice job. Also, 1U is 1 3/4".
Love these types of videos. Server gear is so neat.
Most interesting Tech channel on YT. Keep up to good work bro. I shook my head no after you asked if we were bored lol.
Haha good. Thanks so much!
Great minds think alike! I totally understand all the pros/cons. People need to be media-wise.
10:20 no need for the MacMini, you can run BHYVE w/MacOS on your FreeNAS.
When I worked for Bull Information Systems twenty years ago we called hard disks online storage, backup tape was off-line storage and tape-based indexed backups were called NEARLINE. So that's what you have there - perfect nearline storage! Fabulous video btw - it gives a real insight into your operation. Thanks.
Dude, if I were your insurance provider I would definitely increase your fee after seeing how you open boxes.
Thank you for this awesome guide! I find your videos are more and more informative and helpful in setting up something complicated. This is especially true for your recent AMD Hackintosh DIY!! Luv it! Great job Snazzy Labs! With your wonderful content, no doubt you will run out of storage soon!!
I never realised how hard content creators work, seems really stressful :(
It’s fun most of the time.
yeah it really must be stressful being able to record anything you want and knowing all you have to do is post it to the internet to rake in 6 figure(if not 7) net profits per year, while not leaving your own house. i couldn't imagine a more stressful job.
/sarcasm
While I’m not saying it’s easy, he’s making copious amounts of money from doing all of this (as evident by the thousands in equipment shown in just this 1 video)
Josh C you do realize that all of this was collected over many years, right?
you should have just bought a 1u rack shelf for your mac mini - you dont need that sonnet pos.
why do you need a mac pro to remote in to the mac mini? surely you can remote in from anywhere on your network?
a better set up (if yoyotta supported agents) would be a direct connection from margaret to the tape drives, and margaret running a software agent - no mac mini in the middle, and all yoyotta does is kick off the job on a schedule and tells the agent backup up those directories to this tape drive.
this architecture would be simpler and require less network bandwidth generated from moving all the file around between margaret and the mac mini.
Ha ha ha(laugh in Romanian) 10 euro for 1Gbps internet speeds and this is for consumers. Businesses pay more as they have contracts that specify that their bandwidth is guaranteed.
I think some households in Sweden get 10 GBit/s for ~50€/month and mind you Sweden has much higher wages too. Meanwhile, here in Germany I would need to pay 55€/month (up from 45€/month) for 175 MBit/s max down over my current ~96 with an unchanged upload speed of between 30 and 40 MBit/s. Just great. All that over a centuries old former telephone line, because our conservative party in the 80's ignored the expert's suggestions to broadly roll out fiber and CATV as a minimum for rural areas. Some people get less than 2 MBit/s till this day, even over cellular data. Sad. At least, most plans are uncapped when it comes to fixed broadband. Our cellular is either capped, very expensive (like >100€/month) or non-existent, because of lack of competition and corresponding laws…
Mind you, 1 GBit/s is the max you normally can get in Germany apart from some very select few thousand households in either Metropolitan or Hinterland areas, while in outer countries this is already considered "the minimum" for most - at least those who want and can afford it. Most of that over some >110€/month fiber or CATV which is not nearly as stable or low-latency. Always feels so bad watching someone download over Gigabit/s lines with like 120 MB/s from Steam, when you are lucky to get 11 on most days. Hearing my parents say 12 MBit/s down with 2,3 MBit/s up is "fast" just a few years back was even worse…
Great video Quinn! I love the idea of using commercial networking/server gear in a small business setting and seeing hhow it worked out.
After seeing this, I really want you to do a video on data organization/management... That YoYatta software looks very interesting for streamlining the workflow of pulling images/videos of memory cards and doing some organization for you.
in developed country that internet connection price even of commercial connection are ridiculous.
10:32 -- What the actual hell is going on? Just have a handy lighter next to your bong off set is kinda nice tho.
Man... I just love these type of 'servery' videos..pleeaaaseee upload as much of them as possible!
Are you bored yet? No, I love this stuff!
I’ve sold backup solutions for years into the enterprise environment. Observations:
- Tape is cheap but very slow to retrieve and subject to all kinds of degradation attacks. Any magnetic field in the vicinity. HVAC failure can destroy tapes. Mechanism failures can stretch, crinkle or break tapes. Putting in the wrong tape and accidentally writing over previous data. After 10 years or less the binder dries out so oxide falls off the tape making it unreadable. ...and much more.
- Optical storage has none of those drawbacks, is rated for much higher longevity plus It’s much easier to handle and can be automated if needed.
LTO tapes are sometimes a nightmare to do a recovery on. it all depends on what software you use for back up. We use EMC Networker for out robotic tape library and it was a nightmare to do some recoveries.
I love the way how you explained the issues with hard drives/tapes then, come to the product and its benefits. I say it's super cool.
google drive storage is unlimited when you have at least 5 business users (about $30 a month) 🥳 - only limited to 750gb upload per day, per user.
Yeah but his upload speed is really crap as he already noted. Then you have to truly believe the Google won't use your personal data without telling you. They're not living up to the whole trust factor given their shady practices.
Isnt is 750mb? Im not sure
@@IraQNid you can encrypt the data before uploading
Shared drives are always unlimited from GSuite for about 12 bucks per month
Can be bypassed with Service account
I think it's great that you're giving interns a chance to lead the camera. I hope he's already learned a lot from this experience.
video starts at 5:41
Video starts at 0:00
As they all do, @@_purejosh! Ya beat me to it! :-)
Been a subscriber for a few years now. Videos getting better and more interesting all the time!
Uh, some how, this video had some
Blair witch project, feel to it
I know what you're saying but hard drives are also magnetic.
13:29 LMFAO!
Okay. Just ordered a unit and 3 tapes... now all I need is a roll of scotch tape and a pair of scissors.
This guy is like me convincing my mom to let me buy a 2000 dollars PC
Pretty standard stuff if you need to absolutely NOT loose data. For me its RAW photos among other things and a TIFF can easily be a couple of GB. Tapes are basically consumables, you take a new one, write it full with data and trow it into a tape library, bank vault or shelf and never look at it again. They are really not meant to be used frequently. And if you want a random file on it it can take tens of minutes so you could as well dump the entire tape and search it on your hard drive.
Watch out your turning into Linus next you will have a large noisy server like his lol good video
I don't work with servers, have never seen a server up close, I will likely never buy a server, yet I found this video to be incredibly interesting. Thanks for making an interesting video about servers.
The internet prices in USA are just crazy. In my country (altough in a small part of it for now) you can get a symmetrical 10Gb/s connection for like $33 a month
While true, his is even more expensive because it's commercial internet. He gets a static IP among other "features."
paying $55usd for 100mbps down 15 up $300gb cap. Usually speed test apps say between 100 and 110mbps also steam usualy reports 13 to 15 Mbps
Multiple LTO 5 and lto 6 drives are a godsend.
Under nerd on me would love to actually HEAR that drive write data!
I don't know what was the biggest money waste: if it was the Mac mini server rack mount (just put it on top of something) or if it was the dedicated monitor for it (just VNC or ARD into it for god's sake!)
10:32 We have all been there, no knife *insert some random nearby object that usually doesn’t open the box*
Didnt linus make a video and say it can take an entire day to write to a tape? Was he totally wrong or is this totally different?
Depends on the source volume and the archival software. As long as your source volume can provide a sustained 3800MB/sec stream, you'll write to an lto-7 or LTO-8 tape at just over 1TB/hour. So, yes, filling a 12TB LTO-8 tape "will" take 12 hours. But, you'd be in worse shape doing the same write to a 12TB Exos drive at 120MB/sec (less than 500GB/hour).
Excellent video. In my opinion, this is perhaps your most interesting video: mac minis, server racks & tape drives,
oh my!
download RAID shadow legends now and get a hot goth gf
for real tho, I've been waiting for an in depth video about magnetic tape viability for archival storage for a while
Linus has a couple of videos on jt too
Hey Quinn, your videos flow very well. This one dragged on for a while but was great information. I appreciated it dude.
ARE YOU SERIOUS? Raid shadow legends is everywhere. WTH
M Ha they pay great as a sponsor :).
I should purchase a +300.000 subs channel with viewer bots and maybe I will get a sponsorship from them 😂
I heard they pay like 4000-7000$ for a single advertisement
MichalPlays I heard RUclips is onto bots so it won’t work. But yeah it’s about that for a spot.
@@PolakeXD goddamn
You can format LTO tapes (I think from LTO5 and up) with LTFS. This is a file system that allows you to use it like a HDD. The tape is partitioned into 2 areas, one for file metadata and one for the data itself. This allows the location of each file to be know and the drive will wind to that location to fetch the file. Storing a new file is as simple as mounting the tape as a drive and dropping the file onto it.
The only downside is that you must wait for the tape drive to seek to the files you wish to get (thats not terribly slow anyway) and when you delete a file the file is not erased from the tape. The area of tape the file occupied is simply not used again. To claim that space back the tape will need reformatting.
Oh no, raid shady legends
I mean, the plans for an entire Death Star were stored on tape. Seems legit.
13:30 😂😂😂😂😂😂
I seriously laughed out loud hahaha
Really interesting! Getting into servers and storage has really open up a new tech world for me.
Just buy a 1u shelf instead for the mac mini, duh!
Yep I’m glad I found you by accident this is my third video I’ve seen and you’re now on my shortlist for technology gurus to learn from
13:30 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Tape is cheap. But tape drives are $$$$$. It's only worth it for backing up dozens of TB. Otherwise, just buy a few 14 TB hard drives and a hot swap backplane.
Hi. We need to speak about focus.
Agreed, and depth of field choices.
One day we will look back at these times and wonder....
And music levels. Okay okay, I'll shut up now. Sorry. Sorry. I do like watching your videos. I appreciate that you tend to put a massive amount of effort into them, and lots of cool hardware too.
I am just going down on the same road with disk shelves, rack servers, lto tapes. Good to see others going to the same direction!
Me: Sees sponsor and skips segment
Also me: Hears raid shadow legend
Me again: Watches Quinn advertise this game to a bunch of nerds