Why Narcissists Can't Admit Being Wrong, featuring Dr. Guy Winch
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- Опубликовано: 18 мар 2024
- Dr. C has an enlightening discussion with Dr. Guy Winch about narcissists who simply cannot say: "I was wrong." Dr. Winch identifies multiple reasons they have this difficulty, then discusses our best responses.
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Dr. Les Carter is a best selling author and therapist who has semi-retired to Waco, TX. For 40+ years he maintained a counseling practice in Dallas, conducting more than 65,000 therapy sessions and many workshops and seminars. He specializes in anger management and narcissistic personality disorder. Since creating his RUclips channel, his videos have received more than 110 million views.
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Narcissists can't admit being wrong, but have no problem blaming you for everything that goes wrong.
True 👍
That’s your role!
Exactly! He thinks, if I feel bad it must be your fault.
My mother is this way. I started believing I was the main problem bc that's what I was always told.
This is so true
"Manipulation is when they blame you for your reaction to their toxic behaviours, but never will discuss their disrespect that triggered you."
-Unknown
They are the only ones deserving of respect, (whether parent, child, sibling or partner).
This is so right, I've experienced it so many times. Apologising for something THEY done. Mind boggling.
It is your fault that they’ve misbehaved. And therefore you’re not allowed to have your emotions, you’re not entitled to your reactions, and you’re a bad person for even bringing it up to them because after all, you caused it. Narcissist are so twisted.
They are so self righteous, they can't see past their nose😅
This is so incredibly profound. They set us up and then criticize our honest expression or exasperation and frustration!
The funny part in all this is that they often label other people they abuse as fragile and overly sensitive 😂
They sure do
They do love hiding behind their transparent projectionism as if no one can still see them for what they are.
lol I know it’s so backwards
They Are Gaslighters !
And / or the people they abuse are ‘unforgiving,’ when the issue is that they are unremorseful and unapologetic. But what is revealing is the accusation of being ‘unforgiving’ is a tacit admission of guilt on their part, yet still being without remorse nor offering a genuine apology.
‘They will repeat their mistakes to the grave’. True words!
Or to ours because of them.
"One thing about narcissists is they are extraordinarily predictable." This is gold . 💛 Thank you.
Yes they are not that mysterious lol just frustrating bc you feel like you’re going in circles
Narcissists will compete with you. That's one of the most predictable things they do.
Yep, competitive one up ya to guard their insecurity 😮😅
Absolutely they will oee on your leg and tell you it's raining. 😊😢
Here's another one. It diesnt matter how many times they go to store and even with a list he doesn't get something. Then after the 20 th time you mention this is rediculous you tell the narc it can't always be a mistake and they go into a rage abd he says . People can make mistakes why are you upset ???
The greatest sadness is they have the power of manipulation. They get away with it because they exhaust everyone else. The only reason they have any relationships is due to manipulating someone. 😢😢😢
You've got that right.
Even if you had video of what they did, they would still deny it! Don’t let them make you unsettled!
If you recorded what they did, it your fault already. (Real-life story every single day)
Absolutely
I have seen a video where the interviewer caught the interviewee in a blatant lie and the person would even admit they would do it again.
Because narcissism is a lie & it’s the basis of life
Been there and played that game. It did not matter to them that they were getting caught in their lies and called out in real time as I recorded them point blank doing it. They just kept going as if they believed that if they just lied hard enough long enough, I'd give up and give in.
They feel intense shame and take it way too far to hide it. They are ‘never wrong’ in order to keep the facade going. They must portray a higher position to feel in control. You better not do better than they are in anything, or else. 🔨🔨🔨
👍
💯💯💯
I like the eject and parachute analogy. I shall remember that one. It's pointless talking to them about anything. They do not care how you feel or think. They're right you're wrong in their heads, there is no nuance. Once you wake up, you cannot unsee it and they won't change. There is no relationship, there never was because they cannot connect unless it's on their terms. You might spend decades in confusion slowly disintegrating and loosing yourself before something breaks the spell and you finally see they don't care about you and they never did. They rationalise everything they do and you're the bad person. Paranoid and defensive and they'll throw you under the bus every time to save themselves.
This is the sad, sad truth. You lose everyone slowly as they become bullied, bribed, and finally desensitized. You are the problem for everyone keeping on.
Oh how I want to hear the words, 'I don't like who I am when I am around them'.
Bingo. It’s like trying to have a relationship with and get through to a retarded zombie.
And this works in all contexts: just as well in private life, work context, or service context.
Very very well written. This is exactly what happened to me, only i never did put it as clearly. Thank you*
It is incredibly sad and painful that we are all going through this. I'm glad my comment could connect with how others feel and help in some small way ✌
@@bereal6590 Yes, thank you for sharing. 🌹 It is so true and we often realize what's going on very late.
Its almost magical that the content like this is available for us for free.
Thank You.
Glad for the opportunity to use the YT platform for this!
If someone else admits a mistake, they jump on it. They think it shows weakness. Like a predator waiting for the opening to destroy you.
And-“everyone is out to get me”-yes! And, they are always out to get others too. Works both ways.
Why Trump dumps on wounded servicemen as well as foreigners like his Scottish mother whom he hated since he never separated @ the appropriate age of 3 so he’s stuck in those terrible 2’s forever & we’re stuck with him
Self-awareness is not their strong point in life.
Look! A responsible, mature adult that can humble themselves and admit when they are wrong! I've found me scapegoat. 😈
Society sees you're the responsible one who can admit they are human and goes along with the narc that everything is your fault. Even if you are on the other side of the world at the time. Through some mystical force you have done it. There can be no discussion about it since the stupidity would be on full display. Just go along to get along with the unspoken rules but never ever speak of them or else you're oppressing everyone. REEEEEEE!
Yep, the truth teller doesn't have a chance against the masked liar😮😮
@@teresadvorak6145 They do but they have to take an active exposure-type defense stance to make it work.
They lie, you call it out and expose it on the spot and you never back down no matter how insane they get.
The main issue I’ve seen with narcissists is how inferior they perceive you to themselves. If you can relate to a HOW DARE YOU type of anger when you stand up for yourself, that’s really a telltale sign to me.
Arrogant Gaslighters !
As s a non-fragile person, it's kind of shocking to see an abuser act damaged, after physically injuring you to the point of disability.
It's always someone else's fault!
Pushing away responsibility for their wrongdoings! This is the bomb that obliterates the relationship. It reeks of putridity.
Yep, they are distortionists calling anyone who talks about what's going on a conspiritist so they can keep their eyes closed to true facts 😅😂
Rotting of the soul.
@@raygarafano3633 Oh yes.
In that case, my narc dad stinks! I have no contact, so I don't have to smell his s....!
Narc mother in law taught her narc son that he can do whatever he wants to whoever he wants whenever he wants. No one told me this 33 years ago! 😩
Mine called himself Number One Son 🤦♀️ oldest of 6 & the Golden Child of a male cheating narcissist & a codependent mother 🤷♀️ she also made him her spouse so he ended up supporting the family & went to Vietnam for higher pay 🙍♀️ now that he’s over 70 & she’s in her 90’s with a faulty memory he finally shows how much he really hated being a mama’s boy
Agree. This is my ex MIL.
But their mothers teach them how to lie and manipulate , I think and when they get a narcissist injury it sets them off to defend themselves in a narcissist fashion , I think
40 years !!
😂🎉@@caroleminke6116
Their lies are far too shameful towards humanity....it goes above and beyond humane, its as cruel as it gets
Whatever they say you did is more likely something they did wrong.
Exactly 💯 %
My husband’s ex wife is a typical narcissist. They have children and so he has to keep interacting with her. It’s a nightmare. We have decided to do everything in writing with her in terms of the kids so that we keep a proof of everything that has been decided. But even then, she doesn’t “see”/admit the gaslighting, the misinformation she gave earlier, her change of decision etc. And she accuses us of exactly what she does.
It’s awful to experience that on daily basis.
I have a family member like that. I will not interact with them without witnesses and recording and any agreement to work with them would have to be in writing.
In return, they avoid me at all costs! Like the literal they will leave public events to avoid me level of avoidance.😁
Bravo to you! Well done! I think people who are not stuck with a narcisist (who don't share kids, or are over 21) have to ABSOLUTELY stay away from these people. They are always right and whatever you do, or whatever way you do it, you will always be wrong in their eyes and they will always blame you. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. @@mrsqueakthecat.8061
Sorry to hear that and wish your family well. My husband’s ex-wife does the same things you described.
@@maragirl1658sorry to hear that. I hope you manage to deal with her the best way possible. With children in the middle, it’s so much harder. Also we want them to be protected from her harassment, tantrums and hunger for drama.
I've tried the "in writing" thing. It doesn't work. All that happens is they say "Well I only signed it because you forced me to", or "That isn't what I meant, you're misinterpreting it", or "Wow, how petty of you to want things in writing" or, "That was yesterday, before you...(fill in the blanks)". The mental gymnastics done to avoid any kind of accountability is second to none.
When I admitted fault with my narc sister she added to it..." And you're this and you're that!"
Yes! Thats a predictable alert for the prime insulter to pour on more insults to drag you down deeper to make themselves appear higher with such fakery! It’s all very sick! I had to go no contact with my sick insane abusive dangerous sister as there’s no end to them setting you up for abuse! Their jealousy can go deep and making you a scapegoat is the goal as well to deflect off themselves!
Pathetic!🙄
“Fragility”. I feel like it always come back to complex trauma in childhood.
I think this is the case, but the narcissist won't admit that there's a problem or downplay it.
I know narcs who it was reversed in childhood. They were coddled and told how wonderful and amazing they were all the time. And they thought that they were so awesome that anytime they heard anything different he couldn’t take it.
@@DJH97I think that is a form of enabling, an insidious type of abuse in which someone with a tendency can be groomed. The question is then, if narcissists don't love what intention made them give in. Was it desire of that kind of control?
Certainly childhood trauma affects children in VERY SERIOUS ways that must NEVER be minimized, leading to developing many of the defense mechanisms that the narcissist is known to employ. What Dr. Winch seems to be addressing is the actual “fragile” ego structure beneath the defense mechanisms, protecting them from the utter annihilation they cannot dare invite on themselves, if they don’t-without exception-employ these impregnable defenses against any truth that calls themselves into question. It’s much more primal, as opposed to a cause-and-effect developmental process. (It seems to me.)
P.S. It is definitely both/and, not either/or. The fragility of the ego structure is on a spectrum as well. Each person professionally diagnosed with NPD (and on that spectrum) will have their own individual spot on the fragile ego structure spectrum.
What a relief that i am not a narcissist,isnt it a good feeling to be able to say " I am sorry if i hurt you " ,if we were wrong,being a human with feelings towards humankind is wonderful 😊
But do you always MEAN those words?
In their delusional reality, "admission" is a sign of weakness. And bullying/blameshifting you into taking ownership for their wrongdoings = a power dynamic shift for lifetime a supply of future devaluation in any narrative they choose. Taking responsibility of something they did wrong is the holy grail of supply.
When in the presence of a NPD person, admission *is* not just a sign of weakness but an actual weakness.
Why do you think the first thing a lawyer will tell you is don’t talk?
I am no-contact with my narc dad to prevent stress!
Dr. Winch was a very good guest, Dr. C. He was very direct and no nonsense.
You pick interesting experts.
Thanks! Next Tuesday is Dr. Ramani.
@@SurvivingNarcissism Ramani has got it when it comes to narc dynamics! And she is an able communicator.
@@SurvivingNarcissismDr. Ramani is one of my absolute favorite people in the world 😍 You and her are my go to people for narcisissm and both of you have made me feel so validated in what I've experienced
Yes, instead of going to my room and crying until I have burst blood vessels in my eyes, I now excuse myself and say I need my alone time to be respected and I squirrel away and watch Dr. C on RUclips. Dr. C “knits me back together” and he always ends with the word “peace”. That word is a big hug to me and I am strengthened by it 😊
They will not allow for talking anything out or make peace if it involves exposing why and what the reason is they are blaming you for the relationship division. 😢
I'm in the middle of all this. It's awful. God is with me keeping me safe from my narc bully.
You're lucky. When I went through my version of what you likely dealing with, felt totally abandoned by God.
I have never been closer to God. Dealing with my soon to be ex husband has driven me to the Bible and prayer like never before and a true comfort. I can tell him my doubts, frustration and helplessness. He knows and sees it all, he has a purpose and plan. I think of Job and Joseph, things that happened in their lives, meant for harm, but God means it for good.
My prayers go out for you Daughter of the Most High God. You are not alone. I too find myself closer to Him than ever while I awaken to the malice I live with. Praise His Holy Name! It's a painful and scary storm to go through that's for sure. You feel like it's going to just destroy you. Remember Jesus brought them through it and calmed the storm. Though our crowns be in the dirt throttled and stomped, our Father is faithful to renew it. Pray for me
King Saul 🎯
Though retired now, I used to marvel at decision-makers at the many places I worked through the years who could not admit they made mistakes. That meant mistakes never got corrected. I watched a lot of businesses crash and burn.
I never had a problem saying, "I made a mistake, and here's how I'm going to fix it."
No matter how logical a person talks, any narc in relation with that person will always find a reason for objection by blaming her/him.
The Double Whammy is that they do not like being wrong/ making errors, yet their way of approach things often induces these exact errors... NB: Then a scapegoat needs to be found - not them ! Even when they were warned beforehand not to make these errors (brushed aside and waved away at that point), and they knowingly + informedly proceeded down the wrong path, in the end it is still someone elses fault, obviously....
So, in a a step by step timeline :
1) You see the problem coming (even if they dont), which is stress inducing for you
2) You try to have a normal factual conversation with them, about avoiding the problems heading your way, which inevitably turns into a Great Argument (They yell, try to make you look ridiculous, or smear if other people are involved etc.), all of which is stress inducing for you
3) You have to deal with lingering resentment that you dared to have the Conversation with them in the first place which even vaguely suggested that there might have been something wrong with their approach, or they overlooked something, or the timing was not realistic, or they are not the experts on everything involved , all of which of course is a Sacriledge that Cannot Be Forgotten. The constant lingering resentment afterwards is stress inducing for you.
4) ... You see the problems playing out in real life (as announced), with things going wrong/ breaking down. This is of course, inevitably very stressing to be in the middle of.
5) Then the narc panics, and needs immediate damage control : Someone has to manage the stress of this situation (their project is not doing good, and people are watching) + needs to technically fix the issue itself. ... Oh, but they cannot do this themselves (they cannot handle the stress + cannot fix the issue) .. So you end up with a stressed narc who yells + insults others to alleviate his own stress + tries you to work overtime in a bad situation under stress to rectify the issue. Again, all of this is stressinducing for you.
6) If this is not going fast enough/ not possible to fix completely, you get an OD of 5) see above
7) ... And even after things get resolved, now a scapegoat needs to be found.... Guess who will have to take the blame ?
UGH
So you end up: Constantly stressed, yelled at, and impossible to get some credit even if you worked double shifts under difficult situations. EVEN IF YOU DID A GOOD JOB
Typical at work: Narcs do not like the Prep stage of projects : You have to figure out technical stuff, work alone (hunched over things to test/ read up on etc + With no chances to have meetings where you can Sit At The Head of the Table ! No Great Things to Communicate about Progress etc. )
They want to skip over this stage, or short circuit it. And then they start a project, unprepared, with parts missing, unrealistic expectations, .... LEt The Games Begin *
That was a chilling account, accurate to a T. Thank you for sharing. Suddenly, I don't feel like I am going insane.
Since I have gone no-contact with my narcissistic dad, it is all on him(his b.s.)!
Our narcissistic actually remembers events to fit his narrative. He retells a story in a way that put him in control or totally absolves himself from wrongdoing…I think he truly believes the retelling and has an ‘amnesia’ like episode, where he can rewrite history to match his ego.
They also look for ways to attach a narrative that makes them look like a victim to manipulate into feeling sorry for them so that there is a deflection of accountability on their part. They literally create imaginations in situations.
@@CROSS-Examine you’re so right! I’ve actually said “that was a very creative story, your imagination is so powerful “.
You defend yourself in situations that are imaginary.
@Thejxns I just commented on another comment about this type scenario. Calmly say, "That's not how I remember it." And then ask, "Why do you see it that way?" They love causing emotional upheaval. It makes them feel in control. Don't give them the satisfaction. Stay calm and cool. Ask more questions than you make declarations. This makes them have to think about what they are saying, placing the accountability back into their lap. They may go off in a completely different direction, stomp off and leave, or shut down completely. When something is true, you have a "well" to draw from to explain deeper. When it is a fallacy and you're questioned on the spot, you can go no further. It's not real.
@@ToyotaGuy1971 I didn’t suggest in any way that narcissists are only male…you made that up, be careful, that’s a narcissistic trait. I only said that MY narcissist is male, from your comment it sounds like the people in your life also have a male narcissist !
@@ToyotaGuy1971 I was vague in my comment because, naming someone in the comment section of a video about narcissistic behavior, wouldn’t be appropriate. Sweetie, take your meds and calm down. I’m going to have a great day, thankfully without you in it!
reparenting the inner child means learning to love, nurture, and protect the part of the brain that carries unhealed childhood pain
The Narcissist DOES NOT HAVE a wrong bone in their body. Thanks for this highly educational presentation and then some!
My narc husband will never admit fault in anything. He will, in fact, blame me for his fault because of some action, behavior, or confrontation of holding him accountable to his actions that made him do it. If I would just be a mindless doormat that he could walk over we wouldn’t have any problems at all, after all, I’m the one causing all the problems by confronting him, right?
Wow😢are we married to the same person?😭I'm sorry that you are going through this and I am going through the exact same thing it sounds like.....my heart is so broken and I'm emailing and emotionally drained
😂😂you nailed it! That's exactly what happens!
I've often admitted I am wrong, just to keep the peace. And then they hammered me more.
Don't betray yourself like that ever again ok?
🤗
I told a narcissist...that he forgot our conversation...being older, was worried..needless to say. I was the brunt of every bad word he could think of....🤔
I am no-contact, so he has no punching bag!
The person I'm dealing with says I'm sorry I was wrong but im not going to stop
Bara Schmidt asked a good question. Do narcissists know their true selves? I've wondered this. Or, do they believe the delusion they present to the world?
They have no sense of self/identity. It's why they can play the "chameleon" so well. They "mirror" behaviors and personalities, especially when they want to gain your favor. They can not accept constructive criticism, so therefore, they never grow into the person they were meant to be. They "create" the world they want to live in and need to control the narrative. Their whole reality is a lie.
I don’t think they believe in a “true self”. I think they BELIEVE everyone is posing or posturing for gain. It’s their paradigm - no other frame of reference for them.
Dr. C - I have an idea for a video if you understand it...something about how narcissists' lack of empathy and delusionality lead them to making wrong assumptions and erroneous judgments. projection probably also plays a huge role, as with everything they do. and say.
Good suggestion.
@@SurvivingNarcissism you've probably already done one!
@@sheilajacProjection is a strong lead into being gaslit, they wake up with it and go to bed with it. Probably their number 1 go to.
After a particularly epic fit of narcissistic rage, my father would often say, "That wasn't me who did that. It was someone else." Similarly, my ex-husband (also a narc of course) would verbally or physically assault me in the evening, never apologize, and go to bed in a huff. The next morning he behaved as if nothing had happened. The denial is unbelievable.
Not only that, they blame YOU for 'making them do it'.
And then they throw a tantrum if you refuse sex.. they want sex to show you how much they love you.
Not happening.
I didn't even have to make a mistake, my father would try to find one, in that sense, when he went off on one of his rages it was bordering sadistic. He was so unhinged I thought as a child maybe he will loose it and kill me. He hit me a few times but not beaten but the threat was always there. I developed ocd in my 20's because of it. I don't have that now but his legacy messed me up, a form of brainwashing to shame and blame me. He wanted to find faults that didn't exist
Narcissists remain squarely in their (Self- proclaimed) Superior position even when faced with empirical evidence they are flawed. Don't climb that mountain of shame with them. Remember the movie " The Blob " - don't get any on ya!!
Yes. It gets really messy 😕
😮😅😂😅! Good one 👍😅
The biggest flaw with empirical evidence that even that means it has flaws. You mention self proclaimed. But superior on its own isn't narcissism. Seen any heroes without being superior, any Doctors that nail every topic without having any sense of superiority. I think Self- proclamation is a big give away true that. Exploiting others to gain Superior status is. Just empirical evidence isn't flawless every science topic holds that dear to their heart. The flaw in recognising Narcissism stands with 5 traits, but the Question remains 5 oh really. Thresshold because nobody seems to know why 5 traits. Flaws for sure. Have a nice day.
My dad, to the max, on this. I am no-contact, so I won't be undermined by him and his nonsense!
The hardest thing for a person with Narc tendencies to overcome is the feeling of. . . SHAME. The is NO "middle ground." There is NO "balance" in their minds (and mostly likely in their Hearts). Everything is very "Black or White" with NOTHING in between. Thanks for this video, Les! (BTW - to me. . . "Les IS More!" Thank you.
Thanks, Les - I think? I'm not sure what you mean by that??? @D.m_me_SurvivingNarcissism1.
Yep... SPLITTING
I am always told to APOLOGISE
I have spent a lifetime of watching certain narcissists “reframe” things so that they are not wrong, so they are the “hero”. I feel this is a kind of blame shifting. Catherine Austin Fitts calls this the story of “I am good” that every person wants to believe.
Much more than that & has nothing to do with normal people lol. It’s part of the delusion as hero or martyr while disguising the bully behind this devious mask that’s life or death for a narcissist
they twist, even invert reality. they remember what serves their narrative and completely black out any and everything that contradicts it. then they discard you and destroy yur character while you're going about your life not aware that anyone could be so deluded and sick. by the time you figure it out, 30+ years are gone, you're sick, isolated and (in my case anyway) disabled and that's STILL not enough, they want you to "die in poverty" too. that's a direct quote i heard not too long ago. except i was told they hadn't decided yet if that's their final decision. i've long assumed it would be, since it's been suggested many times.
It is b.s. and we don't have to deal with it!
So, when someone blames or accuses you of something they did, and you appeal to them to be honest, or explain that you did not do it, then you injure their ego, and they feel like a victim and that you are the cruel perpetrator. "They don't perceive themselves as dishonest. They perceive themselves as victimised."
Thank you both for explaining this trouble which is so baffling to the person who understands the healing power of taking responsibility for oneself, honest apologies and gracious forgiveness.
Narcissists are full of jealousy. Jealousy, the fear of not being perfect. Their subconscious has been hijacked by a overbearing selfish parent whom has the trap of expectation deeply embedded into an innocent soul (thank you Nicholeen Peck for understanding the trap). Brilliant lady and I wonder what she thinks of narcissists? Parents represent society when a child grows up.
Thanks for your guest.
"How can you minimize the damage done to you?" Yes. That's THE question.
Expectations ARE the rub. Having no expectations is the sweet spot!
When you get frustrated you’re accused of being erratic and argumentative 😂 it’s so piece full in my home again it’s been 2 months and I certainly don’t miss all that drama,, I still have vile emails from him but I don’t have to answer him anymore 🙌🏼
The narcissist's ego is a sense of superiority which is an insecure place because it doesn't really exist.
Typical of rich spoiled rotten brats that grew up extremely privileged their entire childhood
This is spot on my girlfriend!
She was worse, 8 years later she has begun to admit a little give on issues.
It's been hell. The irrationality is over the top.
I have reached a whole new level of tolerance.
If it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger.
I am strong now and she knows it, and hates it!
She won’t change so you do?! Plz get out of this sick situation & stop codependency so you can have a real relationship in the future
@@caroleminke6116the sex is probably too good or she’s smoking hot
They will never be half the person you are & they know this, so they have to make themselves look bigger & better 😅 yep😂
@@caroleminke6116 I have left her 6 times in 10 years and the last time was for a year. I was done and with in her face, premeditated discussion of my departure.
It's openly known that next time is the last time. This is ridiculous!
I'm aware of codependency. I am not that. I am to logical and confident. However, I have emotions for those in my inner circle, and, people can heal. That's my fault, and I do pay that bill that doesn't receive social wealth! I call it humanity.
Reason, in all situations can win the day. This is not the fix, even though she is unreasonable. Reason is not the issue. I am trying, and making forward ground with her. Not fixing her, but her acknowledging the problem. She admits she has a problem and that is the good, small step to this big problem.
I am addicted to codependency, when it's positive, by & towards each other. Love they call it.
I am opposed to codependency when it's harmful. I am disgusted with her negative, reactive ways. I have solutions to this thing called life we share. I talk with her about getting financially free, with lots of room to play. That is a good goal? But it takes the both of us, or she will bleed me dry. She is the opposite, and almost wants destruction and chaos. It's like she wants to be a victim rather than a billionaire.
To tell her friends about the bad guy boyfriend and make up complaints is better than having a good guy boyfriend that is dedicated to her in every way and elevating her to Taj Mahal princess level.
I am straight with her. I hold back nothing. I do it calmly and she hates talking about it. I know these types of people are nothing but negative by choice. But a choice that is made in their minds, like a negative program that she installed in her early age. She is not in charge of it's micro management. She oversees the program like a boss that is to busy playing golf. The choice is made not by her consciousness, but by the program that makes her feel good. It doesn't have to be reasonable or make sense. An automated choice.
That's when I do a screeching stop the subject, and inquire why she made the choice and locked it in without investigation, or any knowledge of the issue. Even contrary to professional advise.
She's not dumb! She's a Doctor!
The negative reaction that is out of the blue, is her toy, and she wants me to play with her toy. A toy that is delusional and causes degrading harm. Benefits no one! This is when she is happiest. This mostly happens with just her & I. When I discuss it to someone anonymously, they reply with, "This person has a mental disorder". That's like saying grass is green, water is wet.
It's just play and not reality, but it makes her feel strong. I present real world solutions trying to make her feel strong but if it didn't come from her, it gets negatively degraded, thus, overall, little change.
I have tried all forms of known reversal tricks, made things up to see what comes out the other side of the girlfriend machine. I have tried treating her like a person with multiple personalities'.
"Who am I talking with now"? "Is this the Dr.? The horse rancher? Or the little girl on her bedroom floor having a tea party"? It's just a sarcastic ploy, but if she is going to make such extreme social swings and beat me over the head with them, then I will need her theater schedule and introduction to the characters.
It's the little change that is the real world damage when you live in the country of opportunity and at a time that it's easier to go big now than ever before! To bicker about imaginary, divisional issues and not focus on opportunity, is the chizling of the gravestone to -6' level, in lue of Taj Mahal level, quality of living.
Oh, that is so sad taboo, you are wasting your life.
They always hold us to a standard that means nothing to them and their actions. What do we do when they claim to hold things against you but will not tell us what we did?
This is classic. Usually, it is something we never did at all but was a figment of their delusion because of how they see themselves and others. Usually, this "offense," if you will, will surface at an opportune time for the narc, to throw you off balance and to regain their control of a situation. The best way to counteract this is to remain calm, state that it is not how you remember it, and ask them why they perceived it that way?
I recently had an experience with my young adult stepdaughter. We had a conversation that was needed because of something that happened that she brought upon herself. I asked more questions, though not many, than I made declarations. Every time she would try to veer off course with some random accusation, I'd redirect to the center of the conversation. Let's just say, there was nothing she could do to flip it around on us, no matter what she tried. We remained calm and collected. We let her know it was a safe place to talk if she had any grievances relative to the topic. We gave opportunities (3 ×) for her to tell us what her thoughts were about the events that lead to the current situation. Total silence. When she realized she could not manipulate us or cause an emotional upheaval, she stormed out and slammed the door. She still hasn't spoken to us, and that was 2 months ago. She's mad at us when she should be mad at herself. The "stonewalling" is manipulation. I told my husband not to let it get to his heart. It's what she wants. She will have to learn the hard way. Keep the boundaries. In a normal relationship, we can not correct what we do not know.
I'm being blamed for others' mistakes as well as their cruel and vile behaviour. I believe that would be called "PROJECTION????"
It is. I am not in contact with my narcissistic dad, so he can't "project" his crap on me!
@@jackilynpyzocha662 I hear you. I'm not in contact with my entire family. So much for being the family scapegoat.
Many GREAT POINTS HERE. The number 1 favorite of mine is that YES - ALL NARCS ARE USING THE SAME BLUEPRINT for their lives of REPEATED destruction. There are variables, but all survivors of NARC abuse all have VERY similar stories. THANK YOU both for your expert exposition.
Trying to get a narcissist to see they are wrong the argument can go on forever. It is not a hill worth dying on..
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I think everydody can be fun and loving until challenged. What makes us human is the capability of being loving or at least understanding and reasonable against all odds. Narcissists are not capable of that. Very sad. But if I want a stable, loving and fun relationship, I would rather choose my pup over a narc. Thank you for this meaningful conversation, gentlemen.
I have degree in chemistry, in chemistry to make chemical bond energy is needed, to break a bond energy is needed.
Trauma bonds in order to be broken need interventional energy this where a therapist comes in, needs to be done professionally.
She told me she's never wrong in a cute joking way, in the honeymoon phase. I didn't believe she was serious. I was very wrong.
I left a 30 year marriage with a narc. Now I have financial worries I never had. Has anyone else experienced this? Do you ever think “I should have learned to live with this without it impacting me so deeply” to keep the financial security late in life?
It’s a hard place to stand. I went straight from leaving the marriage to caring for elderly sick parents. No end in site! I’m tired!
You can keep it to the fun times IF you are not living with them or in an intimate relationship. But…something not mentioned here is that when supply feels low for them in their daily activities (work or whatever) they will come home and seek conflict so that they can receive the supply their looking for through your disregulation. Also, you will NEVER address an issue without it becoming traumatic emotionally for you. The argument (that you checked out of within the first 20 minutes accepting that it wasn’t going to get resolved as usual) will last the duration of the day you’re in and the next day until they break you down and you allow “reconciliation” without an actual resolution. This is a pattern that repeats itself over and over. Often the same fights same arguments because of course they never actually get resolved in the first place. It’s hell basically.
"I was wrrr.. wrr... I was... not right." 😀
Once when my ex was having some problem with the car, I asked him if it could have had anything to do with something he had done earlier. He got all bent out of shape and informed me that doesn't like being blamed. That's right, in his universe it's against the rules for anything to be even remotely his fault.
Yup
Since narcissism is a lie about who the person truly is… an immature pre-adolescent in an adult body pretending to be a hero or a martyr then understanding the need to deflect or deny isn’t that hard… facts are nothing to a person lying to save his fake self or false mask that’s all there is between life & death to an infant
I had a friend come to me quite aggressively with accusations of unsolicited advice. I had suggested a movie to her. I was taken aback by the aggression and anger and tried to tell her I meant nothing by the movie suggestion.
Then, when I texted her the next day telling her that I didn’t appreciate being spoken to that way and asked on how we could agree on how to treat each other moving forward, she completely blew up. I had no problem for apologizing for hurting her feelings and wanted to understand why she was reacting in such an awful way.
Drop her when she shows you her real self
Her attitude: her problem!
For the record- just keep successfully running your own race to win ( for yourself) and understand that an imbalance of power ( weighted against you) made it virtually impossible to stay 😅in the relationship
Hey, that's a really good way to look at that 😀 😅
I can’t help but delight in the way Dr. C made Dr. W laugh.❤
It’s tragic I’ll be 59 and finally walked from Toxic family members, I’m almost ashamed that I was so manipulated to engage. I am proud now that I have finally realized the best reaction is no reaction but the grief was hard. Having to come to realize what I wanted for my family was merely a fantasy.
I was around such immature toxic adults when I was younger and even still.
But I can't even think about them anymore because it's just too painful. Some of the people are so selfish that it's like torment and it like a chore to be around them
I still can't see how some people like people like that it seems that the society props up the most toxic people and people while the empaths are hurt more.
This conversation was fascinating to watch! I learned so much. My narcissistic mother would NEVER admit she was wrong about anything. Yet her favorite line was "I'm the first one to admit when I'm wrong" Yes, very easy to say when you never think you're wrong!
😂😂😂...Yeah....easy when you are never wrong...they are so delusional
Love you Dr Guy Winch! I love your direct, blunt and no BS answers. Certainly enhanced my understanding of what is Narcissism all about one and how to deal with one.
Thank you Dr C for bringing him on!
Comments are correct on every level. I have a ex girlfriend who I know now that she is a narcissist. She uses the legal system to try to harass me with accusations for her benefit. It costs me over $50k in legal fees to defend myself. In court next week to defend something that has been already ruled to be decided in my favor. This is the first time we went on offense against her. Hoping for jail time for her with restrictions and sanctions that stick for her. It’s a bloody nightmare. Nine years dealing with this crap and all the lies from her.
The only thing you can control is yourself. Once I put boundaries up and kept them up my life becamei refreshing.
In the mother of all projections, my narc accused me of being incapable of self-reflection. I almost died of derisive laughter.
I think a lot of narcissists in their arrested mental development are trying to right the wrong inflicted upon them in childhood by their parents/caregivers by feeling entitled to unconditional love and acceptance. They idealise us as the perfect parent they wish they had, whose love for them would be unyielding no matter how they behaved. When we fail to live up to this expectation, narcissistic injury occurs, we become devalued and they now view us as a representation of their offending parent who they have secret desires of vanquishing to symbolically eradicate their shame.
Nah...they are trying to stay in the paranoid schizoid position....the first development stage of a child. They only want "the good breast" and never "the bad breast". They split the mother into a not whole object. They can not fuse the mother into a whole loved object... because there is a "bad breast" that frustrated them in the mother...but the mother also have "the good breast" that who satisfy their whole existence. So how can the child survive this...they split the mother and all of the reality into "good" and "bad". All that is me is worthy of only good....the rest is all bad. Everything that is me is all good and everything that is not me and for me is all bad. They need to have such a overwhelming experience that comes with such great consequences that they need to see themselves as "all bad" (no supply). So that they can start realize through therapy that the reality and themselves are not split up in all good and all bad. They need to realize that there is good and bad in all of us...
"Minimize the damage to YOU!" -- well said
10:25 ohhh I have THe perfect example for that!! In an explosion of rage, my maternal unit attacked me and strangled me, and than claimed to literally *every* one that ‘she felt threatened and did it to defend herself’.. against someone who was actually leaving, or trying too, after she became more and more agitated as she saw how her full blown tantrum about 37yo me going against her will by divorcing my (ex of 8y now) abusive husband to me and even more the children wasn’t working, and took the decision to gtfo when resorted herself to scream at me that “we’re better than this in our family, we don’t get divorced”, because ‘divorce is ugly’, ‘morally ugly people get divorced’, and because ‘marriage is a serious engagement, it’s a contrat that you made for life” which was what slapped me most, what woke me up from her raging trans, as she should very well know that I know that she cheated on my dad with the neighbour because, as she explained it to me, “my dad had been working too much lately and she was missing on affection and intimacy”, but here’s the *truth* : my dad’s a fed, he was mobilized for a little ~3 months to literally go fight a local war, fighting to contain a crisis that exploded on the limits of a native territory, against ‘North American’ natives, and protect and defend the surrounding houses and citizens.. he still came home here and there to shower and sleep, but went straight back, and I remember those times very well, I remember how physically and mentally exhausted and shaken he was when he came home, but also how motivated he was to go back 6-8hrs later, I remember his tactical gear and his muddy boots, I remember hearing about the intensity of having cocktail Molotovs thrown at them right and left, I remember hearing about some of his colleagues and friends that got hurt, most permanently, and some others that almost got blown up and turned into a human torch, and I remember being so fvcking scared he would get badly hurt. I was 9. So at 9yo, I knew enough to understand that she was full of crap. From before my birth until I was ~7yo, my dad worked away all week - he was the PMs close security detail, and followed them 5d/w and sometimes more - so I wipe my butt with her ‘missing out so much affection’ bs excuse, that unfortunately seems to have worked with my dad. I never saw any emotion on his face related to this. She only gave me her version of events, which was just a petty attempt to get my sympathy, to avoid accountability. To a 9yo girl, that witnessed AP’s wife barging in our house screaming profanities at her mother, that understood what it meant, and saw ‘whatever that was’ that came after.
And now she rationally thinks she has any credibility in being *that enraged* to the point of attacking me? She cheated. I didn’t. I said no to violence and abuse on my children. Of course she didn’t. She last all possible remains of any credibility she could’ve still have that day. She crossed my point of no return, that was my epiphany while I was completely dissociated, that and ‘don’t you fvcking move, or you’ll hand her on a silver platter everything she needs to end you, maybe even take your kids away from you, just let her, you know how this usually goes, she’ll calm down after she physically releases all her rage, and from seeing the pain she’s inflicted onto you, which she didn’t get that time, hence it took a little longer than usual..
So me, who completely frozen and dissociated, who didn’t even move, didn’t do anything in self-defense, while she was actively squeezing my throat with both hand, blocking my airways, convincingly screaming that I was crazy and should get my meds changed as ‘I don’t seem to have to good ones’, me who’s been seeing her GP every month for the last 2.5y, me who’s been to therapy, me who’s doing everything she can to not have abuse and violence in her home but his being forced to.
It doesn’t even make sense, but I’ve since learned that when things ‘don’t make sense’, it’s because you’re missing pieces… so, I know she went full nuclear with that disgraceful interpretation of feeling her ego threatened, as it’s been 7.5y since I vanished, and no one absolutely no one in the entire family has ever tried to contact me, to know what happened, how I’m doing or ask why they haven’t seen or heard of me in a while. No one. Not even when my 11yo almost died from Crohn’s disease 2y ago. So, I prefer not thinking about it.
They don’t know, and I can’t make them want to.
They all don’t care to know at least some of the context considering the severity of the event, no one is curious to know if a deposition immediately after the event was made with the local police, which was, if I was hurt, if I needed some help, or worried if my kids were safe with me.. I mean, if I was really that crazy, then how come no one ever did anything for them? To “protect them from crazy me”? And no one cared to hear about the extensive psychiatric assessment I humbly asked for, cause in my simplistic factual world, it’s ok to be bipolar or whatever, as long as you take care of yourself and follow your medical team’s orders, you’re more than fine. So, I really wanted to know if I had something because I’m raising 2 kids that I really don’t want to fvck up just because I neglected myself all while *everyone knew but did nothing*, so yes, I really truly wanted to know in order to get the right treatment and get better, and be an even better mom. (Spoiler - Dx: PTSD related to childhood and recent events, and I’m on the spectrum, which finally makes a lot sense.
After meeting with my paternal unit the next day and where that landed, I decided that I was not going to fight this. I had no chance, not much leg left to stand on, he had swallowed and took for only truth her insane version where she interpreted “threats to her reputation” as threats to her safety.. by that man that had said to my att husband that he was right for raging and cursing at me, his 36yo daughter, because of the mess the house was in when he came home from work, that man that believed it wasn’t abnormal that my youngest was 6yo the first time I was able to leave the house alone without any kids, and that man straight up told me “what do you want me to do, throw her in the street? I can’t and will not do this!” when I wasn’t asking for anything but to be heard and believed by my dad, I just needed my dad, I needed him to be my dad, my protector, after I know he’s spent his career protecting and defending others, I thought it would trigger at least something, just enough to be believed.
That didn’t happen.
But that’s what revealed to me how deeply deranged, dangerous, and completely disgusting she was and is, and that I had to cut all contact and flee to seek safety. I knew it was insanity. I didn’t want to have any part in it.
I gtfo’d.
My only goal became taking care and protecting my children and myself… which with the ex-husband that I have, I’ve barely been able to. But that’s another story.
Sorry for rambling y’all
DH is from a military family. The father would force admission that you made a mistake as a humiliation ritual. Just ground them into the dirt. Not a great guy-always had to “win”, force others, especially his kids, into subjection. I think his kids developed great skill with blame-shifting to avoid the humiliation.
18:58 pure gold! "An entirely different narrative of what happened in which their behavior [or conduct] is excused ... and everyone else is to blame."
For a narcissist to admit that they were actully wrong about something would be to admit they have failings or are imperfect, and that is so anathema to their psyche as to be totally unacceptable. A narcissist believes they are perfect and without flaws, it is everyone else who is wrong and the sooner that other people realize this, the better their world will be.
You can't show it by reason when someone is unreasonable.
The root cause is low self-esteem, insecurity and low self confidence. All because they never felt loved by their mother.
Or father.
İmagine how it is if they are ignored by both parents!
Nit necessarily the mothers fault. There can be other factors.
Nah...you are making them a victim...that is the story from the abuser. It is Pride...they can not tolerate to not be the centre of the world...like all babies feel at first. This is what they want to keep...so they use manipulation to make others sacrifice themselves for them. Like saying...I was never loved(because someone said no) life is unfair to me(because I do not get what want ALL the time)...
Sure there could be abuse in childhood, but some kids get through that with the most lovely and kind personality
But this is vulnerable narcisist. The other geneorosity type always bullys,rages and gaslight you. It does not matter whether it is a he or she.
I also understand now they strike out cuz something about me threatens them. Getting a bit easier to not take it personally.
My ex wife stated on numerous times during our marriage......
" The words I'm sorry are not in my vocabulary "
I'm glad she's your ex! wow!
@@miranda-r4s.....So am I.
How convenient for the narcissist until it’s over
Sounds like my narc dad; which is why I am not in contact with him!
I’ve been nodding along the entire time I listened to this video. Thank you so much for sharing all these wonderful conversations.
You are so welcome!
I made the mistake of staying too long with him 🙄😂
Ughh so used to this behavior from most of the people i was around when i was growing up. I always wished the person would also be strong enough to say “i was wrong” and it just wouldnt happen. Trying to continue to get them to see this was fruitless. “A fools errand” as he said lol.
'Really enjoyed Dr. Winch's input! Thanks Dr. C!
The Team Healthy community feels like a second home.
A healthy one! 💜🐾
Thank you Dr. Ramani for giving us the space to feel, what we feel - when forgiveness feels almost impossible when the narcs have no remorse, or guilt over how they abused us. Having a professional state this herself, is very validating when other people don’t understand.
My apologies, I just realised I put my comment on the wrong video. Thank you to both Doctors for your professional insight and in trying to help Survivors 🙏🏽
They can't admit they're wr,wr,wr er...not quite right 😳 (Fonz from Happy Days)
Lol😂
@@Teacher369 Heyyyy!!!
😂…..Heyy Amanda ❤ 🫂. Good old Happy Days. What a great show that was growing up!
@@tbunnyshy1 Hee hee 😜 ❣️
Not only they don't accept their own mistakes (known/unknown) that but they will compel you to be the bearer of their mistakes😮many thanks for the insightful discussion Dr. C, Dr. Winch and Everyone🙏🕊🌷💝🤗
"know what (who) you're dealing with & adjust your expectations accordingly"
That is some really actionable advice. It could save a person from so much aggravation and wasted time
yeah, that's code for: find/create your exits NOW. Narcs are typically charismatic and awesome in public contexts, but never bring them 1:1 up close and personal.
LOVE Guy Winch!! Thanks for having him on.
They definitely want you to engage in an argument. Their strategy is to emotionally disregulate you during the argument by gaslighting and other crazy making tendencies so instead of taking responsibility and feeling the shame they would experience, they can raise themselves above you because now you’re completely unhinged and look crazy. Everyone around you will agree with them that you are acting nuts. Now you’re experiencing the shame FOR them. This is supply for them. It’s so gross.
Exactly. All. That.
Thank you !!!!
You're welcome!
Dr. Guy Winch really knows this subject. I’m almost 50 and starting to desire the career like you guys. I have never known what to do with my life. I have always gone where ever the wind blows me. My son like me is clueless also. I have been encouraging him to be like you guys. He would be very good at that. He has always had a level head from when he was very young. Talking to him about psychological problems is refreshing because he brings important things up that I would never have thought and have never heard. I played a card mind game with him when he was little called, “conflicted.” He completely amazed me and that is a understatement.
Try getting an MSW
Another great one Dr. C. thank you for this.
Glad you enjoyed it
Wow. This guy is amazing. My life for 30 years. About mentally and emotionally destroyed me.
Hey, Dr C forgot to mention. Great story about your mom getting a D in typing. 😄 Perfect! 😊
You could have knocked me over with a feather when she said that.
@@SurvivingNarcissism I bet! That was one of those rare moments! ☺️
The game of “I’m important!”. I like that you have both touched on the point of the combatant’s belief in their own self importance.
The whole family is their orbit.
@@t_nels those people so minded hold their family members captive. The hope is that each person trapped into the captive family dynamic chooses to take back their power and liberate themselves. God bless you.
@@pepperjones7559 Amen 🙏🏼
It's part of some cultures - Japan - can't admit they're wrong - loss of face, which is a fate worse than death. The culture there is passive aggressive, covertly narc. It's often been called "a culture of shame".
“I may not always be right, but I’m damn sure never wrong” said my ex who has since turned my adult children and grandchildren against me .
Thank you for this episode with Dr. Guy Winch. I greatly appreciated his insight. I am choosing to stay married to my covert narcissist husband and it was great to hear the encouragement for what to expect and not expect from the narcissist and how to cope with self-care. His description of the typical argument “I can say X but you shouldn’t say Y” describes about every frustrating argument my husband and I have. I rarely confront him about anything anymore, because it always gets turned around on me and I’m the critical one. The thing is, I finally realized I started believing his projections. But, Dr. Winch is right, most of the time my husband is a pleasant person to be with. I am also hrecently realizing that he’s an emotional amputee and there is so much self-protection going on that I’ll never enjoy emotional intimacy with him. It’s sad to be realizing this after 37 years of marriage. But at least I can find healthy ways to cope with that understanding.
I’m in the same situation. I choose to stay in the marriage and cope with self care as well.
Great discussion
Wonderful, deep conversation. Thank you, gentleman.
Too many folks equate being wrong/making a mistake with that you are a "bad person", as that's how we are conditioned from early infancy to think.
Have to get away from that!
If it is a fragile Ego, aren’t there ways to build a resilient ego while taking off the defensive cladding?