A couple of my uncles were drafted into Vietnam and were issued the 1st iterations of an M16, and when I enlisted they gave me a rundown of their experiences. One and only time anyone in the family ever heard them speak of it And a lot of it was how much they hated those rifles and they ran down a list of issues. And this is the first time I’ve ever heard anyone run that list out. Stick powder would absorb humidity and jam, no chrome on the firing pins, supposedly didn’t need cleaning kits or CLP, later powder change fouled the barrels. Up and down a nightmare. 1st thing they did was beg/borrow/steal BARS from some Marines, and had my grandpa ship them 12 gauge shotguns and Browning 9mm pistols. True story. One of those pistols will be mine someday but I’m in no hurry to inherit it. Rather sit on the porch and share a beer once a week. The long range shooting discussion was interesting. The back and forth with this group is enjoyable, very respectful. The listener can relate to both sides. But I do agree with the man sitting solo on the right side, and it’s neither here nor there but imho you train like you fight. So he’s only interested in rounds that he’s going to hunt with at ranges he will be hunting. Makes sense to me, but I do understand the curiosity of the other side of the table for shooting at long ranges. Great discussion as always. There!s so much content to catch up on. And as far as marketing value I’ve recently been buying Vortex products based off these podcasts/RUclips production. Simply because it’s so pleasant to see a group of skilled professionals having such fantastic in depth discussions. High speed low drag, much appreciated.
Ryan, I loved that you mentioned the 25-45 Sharps. I bought a 24 inch barrel for my AR in it because I had a 5 gallon bucket of Lake City 5.56 brass. I don't load 5.56/223 because I have plenty on hand and have killed many deer with it. To date I have loaded 110 grain FTXs to @ 2700 fps, the 117 grain interlocks to @ 2600 fps, the 120 grain Game Kings to @ 2500 fps, the 80 grain ttsx to @ 3000 fps and the 100 grain tsx to around 2750 fps. This is going to be my go to deer rifle thus season here in North Carolina. All of my shots here are 250 yards or less and this cartridge should be great at those ranges.
the modularity of the AR15 makes it pretty easy to switch between AR15 compatible cartridges. 300 blk shoots very well out of a short barrel and is effective and accurate out to 300 yards. if you need to go out past 300 yards, 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC carry more energy more accurately out to 600+ yards than .223. you can do a 30 second upper swap or a 3 minute barrel swap. you don't need to compromise with a "do everything" cartridge. but respect to the .223 for where its been and where its brought us.
@@625098evan 6.8 doesn’t carry more energy at distance and 6.5 grendel isn’t the greatest cartridge out of the ar platform, the Dimensions lend it better suited for Ak style rifles.
Its a good round. A 55 or less out of a 20 or longer just destroyed small critters, and long 69-77 rounds go a fee hundred just fine and can drop a deer (maybe not legally though) at a decent distance, and its cheap and plentiful enough for defensive training. It isnt perfect, but man it can do a lot.
Ryan is a stand up Gentlemen!!! Hands Down !!! His knowledge and true understanding of what cartridges were developed for and what an ethical and practical shooter will use them for is OUTSTANDING!!!! All you Gentlemen are doing the shooting community a great service 👍👍👍👍👍 And Vortex is truly a name in optics one can trust 👍👍👍👍👍
.223 is definitely one of my favorites. We have a .24 caliber cutoff for deer hunting here so it's mostly for varmints/targets. The most accurate rifle I ever owned or have shot was a T/C encore with 26" bull barrel in .223. One ragged hole at 100 yards and amazing velocities from the long barrel.
The 223 wins out at distance due to the longer bullets available, making the bullet wider for the same length makes it heavier, sure, but at a lower BC is doesnt retain its velocity.
28:30 - While not one person listening to this podcast wants to be a 2 gun guy. The thing about being a 2 gun guy is you get VERY familiar with those guns. And therefore very deadly.
I'm a 2 gun guy for the most part. 243 for deer and everything else 223. With new tsx bullets in 223, I may be a one gun guy. It's depending on how it performs this deer season. I have been told that there is little to no difference in damage done internally on deer, between the 223 and 243 calibers, when using the large expanding, all copper bullets, that hold 100% of their weight. Honestly it's the AR15 platform and price of ammo. My predator ammo, both 4 legged and 2 legged 😏, is $10 a box and deer ammo I can get for around twice that price. Now, I say all that but I'm such a fan of 243 80 grain ttsx from Barnes, that I'll probably never get rid of my small, light 243 single shot rifle. I do have a 22 lr rifle for plinking and a pellet rifle for fun and to introduce my neices, nephews, and friends to shooting and/or hunting. So if it came down to ONLY 2 guns period, it would easily be a 12 Guage shot gun and an AR15 in 556.
3 gun for hunting for food - 22 LR for squirrel/rabbit, .243 to 30 cal for deer (moose/elk) count as deer so caliber just depends on where u live and shotgun for birds, again (410 to 12 gauge) depending on where u live…
Btw hornady did an awesome job improving cartridge design except for the .17 hmr, the .22 is still the best squirrel and rabbit hunting caliber if u want to eat, .17 hmr and up just ruins too much meat on average
So, I'm biased, being a Marine Vet, however, my love for it comes from before the Marine Corps. When I was a youngin' I seen a smattering of West Virginia Whitetail taken by old timers with the .222 Remington (I'll not name names, because I believe that's illegal there). Once I connected the dots to the .223 being the next evolution of that, I've loved it. Good do everything cartridge. For the size of the deer where I live now, WNC, 223 is excellent. And since the only real predators we have out here are coyotes, black bears, and maybe a bobcat, needing bigger is a non-issue. Those typically don't attack people, and If they do, 223 will work. That being said, I'll use a bigger caliber, specifically 30-06 or 41 Remington magnum, if I chase bears, I don't do that much yet so It's a non issue. I love .223
223 77gr concern for home defense. That is my house load. Let my youngest use it to take her first deer. 35-45 yards. Shot was a little back in the liver, back of of the lungs. No pass through. And the buck made it 25-35 yards away from the shot. So if you want an exit wound for blood trail tracking, you will find yourself wanting more penetration. It you are trying to remedy a bad situation fast. Well you know what I am using , guess that says it all. I continue to keep the 77gr load for the house. Have gone to a bonded or all copper load for woods duty.
After watching a few podcasts about the 223, I went out and hunted whitetail in South Carolina. At 70 yards, I took two does in one day. High shoulder shot on first one. She made it 10 yards. The second was a double lung. She made it about 50 yards with almost no blood trail. I had to comb the woods for an hour finding her. The only negative thing about that round was the difficulty in tracking if the shot isn't in the drop zone.
The long range argument is the perfect example of how much more wisdom a decade on the planet gives you. (or whatever the age gap is here, idk, just guessing) In ten years, I bet both of them are saying the same thing as Ryan. Effectively: "Been there, done that, no practical benefit to be gained as I'd be using wildly different projectiles, probably different powder, possibly even a wildly different rifle, for ringing steel at 1200yd as taking a Mule deer at 600yd, even with the same cartridge" .223 is awesome and one of the most versatile small game/combat cartridges on the planet. Everyone should own a firearm in .223 (or .223wylde or 5.56)
Bro I’m listening sitting here at the local brow clown called “going-postal”. So fitting I’m shipping home the 600 rounds I managed to load while at work this hitch
I finally used 223 successfully on a deer this past season. First time was years ago and never found the deer……but the bullets out now are WAY better and I would trust it on anything deer or smaller. So many weights and types to choose from….plus its usually cheaper.
There is a reason the military chose this cartridge, because of its versatility. I like mine for the lack of recoil like you said, but don't get me wrong, I do like my 7mm's for the knockdown power and flat trajectory. The cost savings to reload the .223 vs the other cartridges I own, make it the king in my cabinet!
The military chose it for lightweight, good accuracy, and acceptable lethality. US military doctrine in 1958 did not revolve around the individual lethality of infantrymen. Airpower and artillery were seen as the great killers of the enemy on the battlefield. We were still a conscript military and expected the bulk of the infantry to have a low level of training in any foreseeable conflict.
I’ve owned a Savage model 12 with a 26” barrel for close to 20 years, with a 55 Gr FMJ it has produced groups that I could cover em with my pinkie finger. When it comes to handloading it’s a dream, it’s not picky at all. Over the years I’ve learned that there’s a difference in commercial brass and 5.56x45 brass, case thickness and internal capacity. Ball powders has given me the tightest groups.
I think the fact we have figured out the 223wylde chambering has opened up all kinds of folks to this. I haven’t bought one yet. But it’s my next rifle.
Please do more of these I enjoy them so much make my days at work alot better can yall do one on AR uppers and talk about the various calibers and there uses
10:00 Q: " A great question to ask then is that the function of the rifle (AR) or the cartridge?" My answer: Both- I love the versatility of the AR platform for home protection, shooting at the range, and hunting whitetails and hogs. If I'm hunting in rifle season out of my climber or my saddle- AR is going up that tree with me. Mine is the Bushmaster E2S (Patrol Rifle) 36" overall length and it is light weight- great for climbing. The 62 grain Fusion or the 64 grain Winchester (XP or the Power-Point) is enough to kill anything I want to eat at the distances I shoot at in the swamps of south Mississippi. The round is just like any other cartridge- shot placement is crucial! High shoulder shot (brachial plexus on whitetails) and head or neck shots on hogs with the cartridges mentioned- no tracking required. Great discussion fellas- I have thoroughly enjoyed it!
I fell in love with handloading for 5.56 and .223 wringing out sub .5 groups with handloads to testing my handloads like the 73eldm out to 1400 yards. I even competed in steel gong challenge matches 300, 600 and 1000 yards in an AR shooting against guys with 6.5 Creedmoor and beating them. taking 40gr Varmageddon and cranking the velocity up to 4000 fps out of an 18inch. tailoring loads to my 10.3, 10.5, 12.5 and 14.5 guns. Don't get me wrong I loaded and shot and love .308, 30-06, 6.5 Creedmoor and 300 win mag. but if I can only have one I'm taking a 18in SPR and if I can have 2 I'm taking a .308 and with 3 I want a a 11.5 AR in 5.56
That last line is a tough one. Personally I think .308 would just barely edge the .223 out for me simply because I can take pretty much any game with it and I don't do a lot of varmint hunting. But man would I fight to make sure I could turn that "only one" into "only two" so that I could take the 5.56/.223 as well! If we're talking "go to war" I'd reluctantly leave the .308 behind due to ammo weight alone, but hopefully I never have to make that decision (or go to war for that matter)
Really enjoyed this post learned a ton...primary reason to watch👍 I own a Ruger Precision Rifle (RPR) 5.56, yes no longer available and a Unitah .223 Wylde bolt upper for AR lower, plus several other AR uppers in 5.56. The RPR and Unitah are SO much fun to shot. Accurate at 300yards...shoot all day long. MOA and sub MOA groups being conscience of barrel temp.
Excellent Discussion! On my most recent AR build, I used a 16” barrel with MIDLENGTH gas system. I also switched to a fixed A2 buttstock, which has a heavier buffer and longer spring than an adjustable stock has. Recoil is virtually eliminated, and follow-ups are easier because the rifle doesn’t move when you fire it!
223 twist rates and bullet weights along with barrel lengths -- matching everythings up has also been slightly difficult for me. My CZ 527 MTR 1:9 25.5 inch bolt gun vs all my AR's with 1:7 and 14.5 and 16 inch barrels - just putting holes on paper these days ...
episode 222 should have been about the inimitable .222 too :). We need to resurrect that beautiful cartridge as it serves as an awesome introduction to centrefires. In addition, it would have been interesting to have a group as knowledgeable as yourselves to discuss the relative merits of both the .222 and the .223 cartridges. Edit: by resurrect, I mean renew public interest in an amazing, flat-shooting, intrinsically accurate, and extraordinarily mild recoiling round. The world needs the big manufacturers to start making these rifles again.
Up until the early 2000’s if you asked any farmer in my country what their main rifle around the place was, they’d have said a .222 these days it’s almost always a 22-250 or a 223. They are practical people and the flatness of the 22-250 or the economy of the 223 was enough to move the 222 aside.
Haters gonna hate… but time proves the good and useful.. the .223 was designed as an intermediate cartridge… and it does that very well! I have 3 children, they all started off their hunting and shooting careers with a single shot .22 Hornet.. I hand load the Barnes triple shock X 45 grain bullet in it.. it is Devastating at short range.. 50-60 yards and closer.. many Whitetail have been brought home because of this little double deuce. So you step it up in grain weight and velocity.. .223/5.56… 55 grain Barnes X Will absolutely pass through a Whitetail end to end.. and demolish the vitals in its path.. (in it’s effective range.. considering velocity and energy for the bullet to do it’s thing..) .223 is awesome… not my (if I only had 1 gun) gun, but I wouldn’t feel at a terrible disadvantage… just have to stay within my ability and comfort zone… that said… MANY a man creature never heard the shot that pushed a 55 grain ball that took his last breath away well past 500 yds.. 🤷♂️
Great podcast. Your guest is honest and knowledgeable .5.56 off the shelf in anything but 55 gr.is hard to find? The 223/5.56 and 308 are here to stay! Both are fun out to 800 yds, after that, call for an air strike.
I think Ryan is right on. He and I have the same perspective. Have I shot targets at 1000yds +? Yes. Is it fun? Yes. Is it practical for me in my hunting? No. I like to mess around with 1000yds but, I’d never shoot game at those distances. To me, it’s just not ethical in almost any circumstance. I, like Ryan, am a 600yd and in kinda guy. I handload HUNTING bullets capable of making those kinds of shots. Regardless of what ultimatereloader might say, the eld-x isn’t a hunting let alone the eld-m. Barnes ttsx and accubonds are the way to go.
Same! I live in Michigan, my hunting ranges are going to be 400 and in. I’m lucky enough to have a 600 yard range on my property. Yes shooting 1000+ is fun but I practice being proficient 50-600 with all my hunting rigs. 👍🏻
@@Sanquinar shot placement is crucial no matter the bullet. But with bullets like the eld x there’s even less room for error. Also I think the type of game being hunted matters as well. Is the eldx ok for deer sized game? Sure. But it wouldn’t be in my type 5 bullets for things such as an elk, black bear, moose, ect….. I can’t see how an eldx is even comparable to a bonded bullet, or framed/partitioned bullet, or ttsx bullet. And for longer shots I’d take the ablr or Barnes lrx over the eldx any day.
@@craigmcmullen231 everyone has their preference which is fine and I get that. but if anything I would sooner believe that something like a Barnes or a bonded bullet would have less room for error than something like an eld-x or gameking. If you get the chance, go to black hills ammunitions website and look at their 5.56 ammunition page. They have a loading for 62gr TSX, and the 77gr TMK, which is the even thinner jacketed version of the gameking from what I understand. the TSX while penetrating deeper, has a much narrower permanent and temporary wound cavity than the TMK which still penetrates enough.
My only .223 is a SAKO 85 Varmint. I love it. Took a row deer with it this summer. Plan on giving it a shot with hogs. It prefers longer bullets due to its 1:8" twist. 69 grain Lapua Scenar L gives the best groups. PPU Match 69 grainers are dirt cheap for the performance they offer. Haven't tried the 75 grain yet, I've got a box of them waiting, Also, I think Berger make 80 grain projectiles.
Stop hating on Ryan guy's, he is a hunter at heart. As am I! I don't care to shoot at 1000 yds and hit steel. I can't eat steel!!! I hunt deer often with 223 with 62 gr tsx.
I've been deer hunting with a CZ527 varmint laminate .223 1/9 twist. Running Federal Fusion 62gr. It's been fantastic on deer @ medium distance. Looking at getting a 6arc to fill that roll and going to 53gr vmax in the cz to be a dedicated yote gun.
I'm a 2 gun guy for the most part. 243 for deer and everything else 223. With new tsx bullets in 223, I may be a one gun guy. It's depending on how it performs this deer season. I have been told that there is little to no difference in damage done internally on deer, between the 223 and 243 calibers, when using the large expanding, all copper bullets, that hold 100% of their weight. Honestly it's the AR15 platform and price of ammo. My predator ammo, both 4 legged and 2 legged 😏, is $10 a box and deer ammo I can get for around twice that price. Now, I say all that but I'm such a fan of 243 80 grain ttsx from Barnes, that I'll probably never get rid of my small, light 243 single shot rifle. I do have a 22 lr rifle for plinking and a pellet rifle for fun and to introduce my neices, nephews, and friends to shooting and/or hunting. So if it came down to ONLY 2 guns period, it would easily be a 12 Guage shot gun and an AR15 in 556.
I have a Ruger American chambered in .223 Remington and have loads of fun shooting steel at 300 yards. The Ruger likes 75 & 77 grain bullets with H335 and Varget. My AR likes those also. Both are a 1:7 twist. Uses half the powder than the .308 and bullets are cheaper.
No exaggerating, no BS. I'm known as the Encyclopedia of firearms and cartridges. Ever episode I watch, you literally say what I'm thinking. Miss very little. We should have coffee lol
The .223 Remington cartridge is great. I have one in a Winchester Model 70 Featherweight. It was my very first center fire rifle. I still have it today and use it all the time. I do have to replace my 39 year old Bushnell 3-9×40 scope. So if you have any suggestions, I would greatly appreciate the help.
I have used both interchangeably in the AR platform for years. I bought a Remington 700 cdl in the 223rem and made the epic mistake of firing a NATO 5.56 through it and it became a serious problem to remove the spent casing. Lesson learned
I know one thing for sure, shooting .223 from an iron sight match conditioned AR-15 A2 or A4 in Long Range US Service Rifle Competition is the most difficult thing to do and thus it is the thing to do for any interested in developing marksmanship skills to the highest plateaus.
If I could only have one gun it would be an AR in .223, perfect for home and self defense, powerful enough to take deer, and with a .22LR converter, can easily take small game.
Killed my first deer, and several after that over the years with my 222 Remington. I've since retired it due to factory ammo selection, and use a 223 Remington every year for white tailed deer. Never had one get away from me. Took a large body 9 point with it two years ago. Shot placement right behind the front shoulder at roughly 100yrds. The deer ran 25ish yards and crashed. Shot placement, and bullet selection is key, but the 223 will due the job.
Good stuff, was really interested in the effectiveness of the .223 especially when .223 is cheaper that 5.56 here in Cali (yes behind enemy lines). Glad to hear that the effectiveness of my 18” .223 wylde won’t degrade when using standard .223. 👍🏾
You are exactly right, the technology change on .223, .308, 45ACP, 9mm, and 30-06 has changed so much it still all depends on application. And many other calibers. I am a muzzle loader shooter and shoot from .40 cal to .50 cal pistol and rifle. They need to make a small caliber in-line muzzle loader .22-38 cal. I saw this Pedersoli White Hawk 209 Rifle .177 Cal but its $479.99.
Your comment about the 223 being the small block Chevy of the cartridge world is even more interesting when remembering that both came out in 1955. What was it about that year?
Mr. M. to shush the masses across the table. 300 yards at something with a heart beat let alone 600; is so much more meaningful than 2 miles at a man made rock. Drop the headset sir.
For .223 ammo, I really like some of the bonded soft point stuff. It holds together, but mushrooms to about half an inch, even bigger if using something above 55 grain. Seems like there are some restraints in terms of what our military can use, but it looks like they are now squeaking past the technicality with something like a 77 grain “match,” explaining that the small ‘hollow point’ is really just there for accuracy, not expansion.
@@shamrock5725 I like the Speer (CCI) Gold Dot expanding soft tips. I also like the Hornady Whitetail soft points in 60 grain. But for general use, plinking, etc, I mostly use M193 FMJ. However, for pesky watermelons, the polymer-tipped 55 grain varmint rounds see to work well.
I'm a fan of weird calibers; and wanted to get a 22 Hornet; and the more I thought about it; there really is not reason to not just get 223; available brass; more options on bullets; ect. My bolt action 223 is by far my go to target rifle.
Hmmm; only guessing when the .22 Hornet fell into the category of weird calibers. Fortunately bullet design has made it more effective with time; and the low report seems to go little noticed in more developed areas. It’s a good cartridge; and I usually grab the the Hornet and leave the .223 setting….
Yeah but Hornet is a nice caliber. It's rimmed so you can chamber it in a revolver and lever guns. A 6" Smith & Wesson and a button mag Marlin 336 in 22 Hornet are two of my bucket list guns. A friend of mine has an early N-frame 22 Hornet built for his Dad by Gary Reeder. It is a tack driving MFer.
About 20 years ago my friends dad built a 223/6mm. was cool because it was different at the time. We did a lot of doe and hog management with it. 100grain soft point inside 100yard. We thought we were cool because nobody else we knew had ever seen one.
5.56mm-‘06, 85gr Nosler Partition, 1:6 twist, titanium barrel (or whatever is impossible to burn out). Call it the 5.56 Dizzle-Whilley Tyranosaur Stomper. Why not? Zing-bobba-looie, donchaknow? Ryan is my brand of nerd. He knows what he knows and he knows what he likes and he’s confident enough to chase the odd ducks!
I owned a lot of calibers before the big ammo crunches started. I’ve actually cut my rifle calibers down to .22 LR, 5.56/.223, 6.5 CM, and .45-70. I’ve cut my pistols down to .22 LR, 9x19mm, and .357 magnum. I only run 12ga shotguns now. It’s honestly not a bad life. Do I want another cartridge? Maybe…I’d like to build a nice .338 LM down the road, but I’m really happy with these I have now, and I think I can hunt any game in NA with my current setups, from squirrels and rabbits to grizzlies and bison.
I only shoot 5.56/223, 308, or 12 gauge for any reasons those cartridges are always available reasonably affordable and capable of hunting everything I hunt and like it was mentioned in ND we have alot of wildlife with wings
13:06 So, just having mentioned its prolific use on the battlefield, for now 70 years, And its dominance and exceptional performance... My question is this. I was introduced to firearms with Canadian Armed Forces, at 18 years old, And so I feel most comfortable with the 223. Because of the 5.56 Having watched your 270 winchester vs 30-06, and your 6.5 creed vs 308 winchester comparisons, with ballistic gel testing How do the 270 win, the 6.5 creed, commpar against the 223?
i use 300 blk ar pistol for home defense. shorter barrel with suppressor helps with maneuver around door frames and can walk down a hallway shouldered perpendicular to the wallway traffic and not hit the wall and have room to maneuver. hp subs so that hitting targets wan't over pen and misses will not travel far outside the house (confident it wont leave the property unless arched upwards. Most engatements in a home defense will be
I love my 9in 300blk so much that I don't even own a 223 lol. With my Razor 1-6 on top I can make good hits out to 300yds and it fits in my freaking backpack.
@@musicman1eanda yea i'm looking to start deer hunting in southeast US. If i can get my hands on a few boxes of hornady's subsonic hunting rounds i'll use those. Once i move, i'll start making my own. If i can't get my hands on those, i'll just use supers.
It's one of the classics, for sure. I'm waiting for a few components, then I'll be assembling a 223 wylde, for my son to use deer hunting. It's the most affordable way for him to cut his teeth on a centerfire cartridge. In a few years, he'll carry my 30-30, but he's not big enough yet.
Those 64gr (I think?) deer season xp from Winchester really surprised me this last fall. First time I've ever used anything below a .243win 100gr'er on deer but my initial tests firing into water jugs surprised me enough to give it a try. Took a small-ish 165lb spike-buck at about 90yd, broadside, and it just BARELY exited the opposite side (projectile broke through but was kind of dangling from the exit wound... never seen anything like it) but did a surprising job of expanding while also holding together enough to keep penetrating. On a bigger bodied 240+ lb buck I'm guessing it would run for a long while on a heart/lung shot, but was fine for a small/medium whitetail (small younger ones taste better anyway) Keep the distance under 100yd and he should be good to go. Best of luck to you both!
I appreciate you sharing your experience, and congrats on the buck. I was apprehensive of 223 for deer, but there's enough evidence showing it's capabilities in the deer woods. My original plan was to start him on a 243, but I can't afford 1.50/round for him to get comfortable/confident enough to hunt. It's going to be a special season. I'll be carrying my grandfather's 725, for the first time. I was with my grandfather the last time it was in the woods. So, I get to use my gramp's rifle, on my son's first hunt, who was named after my grandfather.
I used a 223 for deer for 30 years never lost one now I have every 6.5 I think they make and I am going back to a 223 for my deer rifle all of my 6.5s I have shot deer with and they always run 50 plus yards so I am guessing they just don't do what is needed to drop a deer with in 10 yards all my 30s work on deer but I have also taken black bear with 223 so in my book you can't go wrong but there is nothing wrong with a 243 or 6mm of some sort killed deer with 243 and 6mm arc my daughter uses a 6.5 Grendel to hunt with but I think I am going to Chang that to after what happened this past year probably giving her the 6.8 spc I know it works very good for hunting
@@downeastjd1711 I hear that. Love my .243 and it's just sat for the last two years, untouched. Not paying those prices, and I ran out of primers long ago so it (along with all my other non-military calibers) has just sat in my safe as I wasn't smart enough to keep more than a couple boxes on hand for each. I won't make that mistake again, assuming we ever come out of this shortage... I hope you didn't take it as me trying to sow doubt about .223 for deer as I was only talking about that one load from Winchester. Guess I didn't make that clear, that's my fault. The reason I mentioned that load in particular is I've seen it on shelves multiple times over the last 6mo, and midway seems to have it periodically for about $1.10/rd (if I remember correctly) so there's a good possibility of finding it. That's awesome that you've got your grandfather's old rifle. 725, that's a bolt gun, right? Always wanted to play around with a spitzer bullet in a .30-30 to see how much flatter they would shoot. That's a cool gun, and even cooler that it's stayed in the family! Wish you two the best of luck; I'm sure it'll be a season/hunt your son will remember the rest of his life!
@@seanburns4632 You know, I've noticed the same thing with 6.5 Creed. Shots that would have put them down on the spot or within 15ft with a .308 or .243 have given them a chance to get up and run when I've used 6.5. Tried it for two seasons 5-6 years back and eventually sold my rifle. Don't know why. It's not like I was taking 500yd shots or anything, all were well under 150yd, and I always wait until I have a clear broadside shot unless using a standard/long action cartridge, so it was always a mystery to me why I had such bad luck with 6.5CM on deer. I know it was developed as a target round, but they make hunting ammo for it and I believe I used either Core-Lokts or Power-Shok, same two I use in many other calibers with great success.
On 223, I ve ate 3 deer via 223 in my hands. Ruger 556. 62 grain impressed me. I knew it would work. But how well it worked I still wonder if it always performs like that. Same ammo same shot placement. Distance. Does 223 62 grain hunting style ammo always work that well?
mentioned a 338 straight but not a 300 blackout? only thing I think was missed. Only other thing would have been twist rates in the AR/M-16 platform updated as the cartridge started using heavier and heavier bullets. Great talk as always.
I've been in love with the AR platform since forever, and really still think it's the best platform ever manufactured for the price out there... I will even admit I've been a fanboy of the AR15/.223" combo since forever too. Nevertheless I started to found it somewhat laking when I started going for shorter length barrels, that are way more convenient to carry in and out of cars and SUV trucks. And I guess I wasn't alone either, since a bunch of pretty savvy people started messing with 6.8mm and some other wildcat cartridges to enhance the performance of the AR15 because the AR10 where so heavy, and cumbersome, and what have you. Then FINALLY, enters the .300"BLK and voila! I'm back at loving the AR15/.300"BLK combo with a 12"brls where it does well everything I want done from 300m and in, conveniently in and out of any car/SUV I care to drive around in. And since I really can't see/identify squat past the 300m mark any way, I don't even have any compulsion of messing with all the 6.5mm and 6mm wonder magic cartridges that are all the rage nowadays. In fact one of the DMR instructors argued that in a real life 2 ways shooting rages, very few people could shoot worth a dime past 300m; and most DMR trained people who could, would rather send a 84mm Carl Gustav RPG round down range, or call CAS at anything past 700m. And that's why I'm having such a hard time getting exited at anything "magic and new" that will laser-beam an ogive out there from 0 to past 1,000m. Don't get me wrong, it does make for some great conversations at the range; but yeah make my 12"brl AR15 a .300"BLK, and my 16"brl AR10 a .308"W. Put LPVOs and 45 degree angled RDS on them, and I'm in business with probably way more real life capability than I'm able to use efficiently ... Add a TAC13 RDS installed, with the control-strap gizmo and there you have my 3 "long-guns" to rule all situations (really that gizmo is weird and scary at first, but IT WORKS...). Now add my EDC .40"SW Glock23 RMR equipped, and my .38"Spl+P S&W642 EDC-backup and I'm a very, very happy camper. :>0
Really what I mean is that I'm into modernized late 19th to early 20th century performance because it worked then, and still works today better than the average JOe ability to use them eficiently. :>0
You mand .223 more interesting for sure. I'm not doubting effectiveness but sometimes in my brain likes all the other ar cartridges more. 350 legend and 6 arc and 6.5 Grendel mostly.
There used to be a group on RUclips Called the Long Rang Hunting Club , the .30-378 was one of their primary guns. They were doing some crazy wicked things with it and lots of conversation. Maybe they’re still around.
you know you never hear of anybody shooting the 112grn 223 usually I always hear everybody shooting 55, 62,, 69, 75, 77grn but you never hear the ballistics on the 112grn which I would like to see
He said the opposite of that. At 35:30 he gets asked "Ryan, do you ever shoot out further than 600 yards, just for fun." His answer is "Not really" and later he says "there's nothing for me there." And "It was fun to do, but did I learn anything? The short answer is no". He goes on to explain that since the type of rounds you are using are completely different, and that using a heavy bench rest rifle make the experiences different enough that it is unhelpful. I agree that long range competition doesn't help in hunting. Hunting elk up in the mountains, it's not likely that you will be able to get a nice comfortable shooting position with a solid flat rest; rather you are going to be awkwardly on a steep slope shooting off your knees, or backpack, or a sloping low branch you have to stoop to use. You are probably carrying the lightest rifle and scope you can. And you don't have a bunch of time to dial everything in like you do on the bench. You are probably using a second focal plane scope with capped turrets, and you might not even have parallax adjustment (and for something like coyote hunting where you need to get on target fast, you really don't have time for adjusting for parallax). On top of that, shooting accurately is only a tiny minority of what it takes to be a good hunter. If you wan't to improve your hunting you'd be far better off spending time out in the backcountry trying to understand the movements and patterns of the animals, than you would spending a day at the range dialing turrets and trying to hit steel at 1000 yards.
Well at least they were able to dispel most of the homoerotic tension in the first few minutes. Glad they got that out of the way so they can focus on talking about the cartridge.
There is at least one manufacture of Bolt Guns offering guns in 5.56 NATO...Mossberg! They may only be doing this in the Patrol and the MVP series rifles. Unfortunately I think its only available in a 1-9 twist which works great in my MVP Varmint with 53 to 69 gr bullets. Their MMR also was in 5.56 NATO as well at one time.
New subscriber and just wanted this video. I love your videos! I just purchased the Henry Long Ranger Express in .223/5.56. What are your thoughts on this rifle 31:3731:37 compared to a bolt gun? I topped it with a Vortex Venom 3x15x44 FFP and I love it!!
The 5.56 may not be impressive with 55 grain bullets, but SOCOM made great use of 77 OTMs as their 'standard' load, and New Zealand is actually using the 77 OTM as their standard projectile in their new LMT rifles.
To add to some of what Ryan said about the 223 ai on the off season or for practice alot of people will practice lr with a 233 cuz it's cheap to shoot but another reason I shoot a 223 ai is cuz with the 40 degree shoulder u don't have to trim the case as much or at all cuz evertime u shoot a cartridge it grows little by little but with the 40 degree shoulder it doesn't as much but to the AR world u wouldn't want to chamber a AR with a cartridge that has a 40 degree shoulder cuz u will more that likely have problems with it presenting to the chamber if u look at the new nosler cartridges idk about all of them but the 28 nosler has a 35 degree shoulder on it idk in testing if they had problems with a 40 degree or not but I thinks that's y alot of company's don't mess with reloading 40 degree cartridges like the 280 ai is the only one that they mess with but the Creedmoor is 30 degree and old cartridges r 20 degrees I believe or 25 but with a steeper shoulder angle helps boost fps but if u go ti far u might have feeding issues just depends on what u want to do I guess but I have a 223 ai and love it
My 223 wssm going 4650 woth .408 inch group at 125 yards with 40 gr is nuts really does gas it up and knock on wood the browning a bolt feeds beautiful
I am super interested in further development of really long 90+ grain bullets in 223. I hope more people get into shooting these bullets because then faster than 1:7 barrels will become more common.
@@newerest1 no absolutely it's dead. No one is releasing new guns chambered in it. It was a half developed cartridge that failed the hype test. My preferred shop is the largest FFL in my state and they aren't stocking guns or ammo. That tells me all I need to know. If there was a demand for either they would have it on the shelves. With all the calibers to choose from a new one gets one chance to get it right. If not people move past it and it is assigned to the pile of misfit cartridges.
A couple of my uncles were drafted into Vietnam and were issued the 1st iterations of an M16, and when I enlisted they gave me a rundown of their experiences. One and only time anyone in the family ever heard them speak of it
And a lot of it was how much they hated those rifles and they ran down a list of issues. And this is the first time I’ve ever heard anyone run that list out. Stick powder would absorb humidity and jam, no chrome on the firing pins, supposedly didn’t need cleaning kits or CLP, later powder change fouled the barrels. Up and down a nightmare.
1st thing they did was beg/borrow/steal BARS from some Marines, and had my grandpa ship them 12 gauge shotguns and Browning 9mm pistols. True story. One of those pistols will be mine someday but I’m in no hurry to inherit it. Rather sit on the porch and share a beer once a week.
The long range shooting discussion was interesting. The back and forth with this group is enjoyable, very respectful. The listener can relate to both sides. But I do agree with the man sitting solo on the right side, and it’s neither here nor there but imho you train like you fight. So he’s only interested in rounds that he’s going to hunt with at ranges he will be hunting. Makes sense to me, but I do understand the curiosity of the other side of the table for shooting at long ranges.
Great discussion as always. There!s so much content to catch up on. And as far as marketing value I’ve recently been buying Vortex products based off these podcasts/RUclips production. Simply because it’s so pleasant to see a group of skilled professionals having such fantastic in depth discussions. High speed low drag, much appreciated.
I absolutely adore my 223Rem!
just got a Rem 700 .223 SPS tactical 20" barrel and threaded the muzzle so now I guess I have a Rem. 700 .223 ACC SPS
anyone know if I'm right ?
I absolutely adore you Piet! In a completely man to man no funny business kind of way of course….😉
Ryan, I loved that you mentioned the 25-45 Sharps. I bought a 24 inch barrel for my AR in it because I had a 5 gallon bucket of Lake City 5.56 brass. I don't load 5.56/223 because I have plenty on hand and have killed many deer with it. To date I have loaded 110 grain FTXs to @ 2700 fps, the 117 grain interlocks to @ 2600 fps, the 120 grain Game Kings to @ 2500 fps, the 80 grain ttsx to @ 3000 fps and the 100 grain tsx to around 2750 fps. This is going to be my go to deer rifle thus season here in North Carolina. All of my shots here are 250 yards or less and this cartridge should be great at those ranges.
Where can I buy these larger cartridges already loaded ? I don't reload but would like to try these heavy bullets . Thanks in advance .
@@completesystemfailure4669 you can buy factory ammo directly from the Sharps Rifle Company.
We need a Ryan's top 10 guns in his collection podcast!
6.5, 6.5, 6.5, etc.
I really do wish I could emphasize on how much I truly enjoy your show. You guys are great and tons of knowledge, thank you for what you do.
I've gone from "why would anyone want a 223?" to "why do I need anything but a 223?" in the last couple of years.
the modularity of the AR15 makes it pretty easy to switch between AR15 compatible cartridges. 300 blk shoots very well out of a short barrel and is effective and accurate out to 300 yards. if you need to go out past 300 yards, 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC carry more energy more accurately out to 600+ yards than .223. you can do a 30 second upper swap or a 3 minute barrel swap. you don't need to compromise with a "do everything" cartridge. but respect to the .223 for where its been and where its brought us.
@@625098evan 6.8 doesn’t carry more energy at distance and 6.5 grendel isn’t the greatest cartridge out of the ar platform, the Dimensions lend it better suited for Ak style rifles.
Its a good round. A 55 or less out of a 20 or longer just destroyed small critters, and long 69-77 rounds go a fee hundred just fine and can drop a deer (maybe not legally though) at a decent distance, and its cheap and plentiful enough for defensive training.
It isnt perfect, but man it can do a lot.
Bears. Retention of energy at distance.
I did that in the last hour.. 😂
Ryan is a stand up Gentlemen!!! Hands Down !!! His knowledge and true understanding of what cartridges were developed for and what an ethical and practical shooter will use them for is OUTSTANDING!!!! All you Gentlemen are doing the shooting community a great service 👍👍👍👍👍 And Vortex is truly a name in optics one can trust 👍👍👍👍👍
.223 is definitely one of my favorites. We have a .24 caliber cutoff for deer hunting here so it's mostly for varmints/targets. The most accurate rifle I ever owned or have shot was a T/C encore with 26" bull barrel in .223. One ragged hole at 100 yards and amazing velocities from the long barrel.
I'd LOVE to see a longer conversation on the 6x45 vs "heavy" 223 loads
Yes!
Seconded!
Buy a schultz o Larsen legacy with two barrels
No it would defeat the purpose of the cartridge
The 223 wins out at distance due to the longer bullets available, making the bullet wider for the same length makes it heavier, sure, but at a lower BC is doesnt retain its velocity.
Wow! What an interesting Podcast. I have a much greater appreciation for the .223 now. Thanks guys!!
Currently having a “223 trainer”built off of a blueprinted Remington 700 action 8 twist krieger barrel to mainly shoot the 77gr match kings.
28:30 - While not one person listening to this podcast wants to be a 2 gun guy. The thing about being a 2 gun guy is you get VERY familiar with those guns. And therefore very deadly.
Like The old guys here in Australia say “beware the man with only 1 gun, for he can surely use it”.
😉
I'm a 2 gun guy for the most part. 243 for deer and everything else 223. With new tsx bullets in 223, I may be a one gun guy. It's depending on how it performs this deer season. I have been told that there is little to no difference in damage done internally on deer, between the 223 and 243 calibers, when using the large expanding, all copper bullets, that hold 100% of their weight.
Honestly it's the AR15 platform and price of ammo. My predator ammo, both 4 legged and 2 legged 😏, is $10 a box and deer ammo I can get for around twice that price. Now, I say all that but I'm such a fan of 243 80 grain ttsx from Barnes, that I'll probably never get rid of my small, light 243 single shot rifle.
I do have a 22 lr rifle for plinking and a pellet rifle for fun and to introduce my neices, nephews, and friends to shooting and/or hunting.
So if it came down to ONLY 2 guns period, it would easily be a 12 Guage shot gun and an AR15 in 556.
3 gun for hunting for food - 22 LR for squirrel/rabbit, .243 to 30 cal for deer (moose/elk) count as deer so caliber just depends on where u live and shotgun for birds, again (410 to 12 gauge) depending on where u live…
Btw hornady did an awesome job improving cartridge design except for the .17 hmr, the .22 is still the best squirrel and rabbit hunting caliber if u want to eat, .17 hmr and up just ruins too much meat on average
So, I'm biased, being a Marine Vet, however, my love for it comes from before the Marine Corps. When I was a youngin' I seen a smattering of West Virginia Whitetail taken by old timers with the .222 Remington (I'll not name names, because I believe that's illegal there). Once I connected the dots to the .223 being the next evolution of that, I've loved it. Good do everything cartridge. For the size of the deer where I live now, WNC, 223 is excellent. And since the only real predators we have out here are coyotes, black bears, and maybe a bobcat, needing bigger is a non-issue. Those typically don't attack people, and If they do, 223 will work. That being said, I'll use a bigger caliber, specifically 30-06 or 41 Remington magnum, if I chase bears, I don't do that much yet so It's a non issue. I love .223
Agreed 223 is awesome from another fellow WV guy! Thanks for your service
WV says any centerfire rifle cartridge is legal for deer.
@@georgesakellaropoulos8162 huh, you're right. I misread it for a few years in a row lol
Ryan is a cartridge encyclopedia, dang.....👌👍🤘
Yes he is!
223 77gr concern for home defense. That is my house load. Let my youngest use it to take her first deer. 35-45 yards. Shot was a little back in the liver, back of of the lungs. No pass through. And the buck made it 25-35 yards away from the shot. So if you want an exit wound for blood trail tracking, you will find yourself wanting more penetration. It you are trying to remedy a bad situation fast. Well you know what I am using , guess that says it all. I continue to keep the 77gr load for the house. Have gone to a bonded or all copper load for woods duty.
After watching a few podcasts about the 223, I went out and hunted whitetail in South Carolina. At 70 yards, I took two does in one day. High shoulder shot on first one. She made it 10 yards. The second was a double lung. She made it about 50 yards with almost no blood trail. I had to comb the woods for an hour finding her. The only negative thing about that round was the difficulty in tracking if the shot isn't in the drop zone.
The long range argument is the perfect example of how much more wisdom a decade on the planet gives you. (or whatever the age gap is here, idk, just guessing)
In ten years, I bet both of them are saying the same thing as Ryan. Effectively:
"Been there, done that, no practical benefit to be gained as I'd be using wildly different projectiles, probably different powder, possibly even a wildly different rifle, for ringing steel at 1200yd as taking a Mule deer at 600yd, even with the same cartridge"
.223 is awesome and one of the most versatile small game/combat cartridges on the planet. Everyone should own a firearm in .223 (or .223wylde or 5.56)
Good timing. Need something to watch while I wait for the brown clown to deliver my Vortex QR riser mount for my Venom to go on my AR.
Bro I’m listening sitting here at the local brow clown called “going-postal”. So fitting I’m shipping home the 600 rounds I managed to load while at work this hitch
I finally used 223 successfully on a deer this past season. First time was years ago and never found the deer……but the bullets out now are WAY better and I would trust it on anything deer or smaller. So many weights and types to choose from….plus its usually cheaper.
There is a reason the military chose this cartridge, because of its versatility. I like mine for the lack of recoil like you said, but don't get me wrong, I do like my 7mm's for the knockdown power and flat trajectory. The cost savings to reload the .223 vs the other cartridges I own, make it the king in my cabinet!
The military chose it for lightweight, good accuracy, and acceptable lethality. US military doctrine in 1958 did not revolve around the individual lethality of infantrymen. Airpower and artillery were seen as the great killers of the enemy on the battlefield. We were still a conscript military and expected the bulk of the infantry to have a low level of training in any foreseeable conflict.
I’ve owned a Savage model 12 with a 26” barrel for close to 20 years, with a 55 Gr FMJ it has produced groups that I could cover em with my pinkie finger. When it comes to handloading it’s a dream, it’s not picky at all. Over the years I’ve learned that there’s a difference in commercial brass and 5.56x45 brass, case thickness and internal capacity. Ball powders has given me the tightest groups.
I think the fact we have figured out the 223wylde chambering has opened up all kinds of folks to this. I haven’t bought one yet. But it’s my next rifle.
Please do more of these I enjoy them so much make my days at work alot better can yall do one on AR uppers and talk about the various calibers and there uses
Glad you're enjoying the cartridge talks! There's plenty more to come. We'll add your suggestion to our list and see what we can make happen!
I very much like this
10:00 Q: " A great question to ask then is that the function of the rifle (AR) or the cartridge?" My answer: Both- I love the versatility of the AR platform for home protection, shooting at the range, and hunting whitetails and hogs. If I'm hunting in rifle season out of my climber or my saddle- AR is going up that tree with me. Mine is the Bushmaster E2S (Patrol Rifle) 36" overall length and it is light weight- great for climbing. The 62 grain Fusion or the 64 grain Winchester (XP or the Power-Point) is enough to kill anything I want to eat at the distances I shoot at in the swamps of south Mississippi. The round is just like any other cartridge- shot placement is crucial! High shoulder shot (brachial plexus on whitetails) and head or neck shots on hogs with the cartridges mentioned- no tracking required. Great discussion fellas- I have thoroughly enjoyed it!
I fell in love with handloading for 5.56 and .223 wringing out sub .5 groups with handloads to testing my handloads like the 73eldm out to 1400 yards. I even competed in steel gong challenge matches 300, 600 and 1000 yards in an AR shooting against guys with 6.5 Creedmoor and beating them. taking 40gr Varmageddon and cranking the velocity up to 4000 fps out of an 18inch. tailoring loads to my 10.3, 10.5, 12.5 and 14.5 guns. Don't get me wrong I loaded and shot and love .308, 30-06, 6.5 Creedmoor and 300 win mag. but if I can only have one I'm taking a 18in SPR and if I can have 2 I'm taking a .308 and with 3 I want a a 11.5 AR in 5.56
That last line is a tough one. Personally I think .308 would just barely edge the .223 out for me simply because I can take pretty much any game with it and I don't do a lot of varmint hunting. But man would I fight to make sure I could turn that "only one" into "only two" so that I could take the 5.56/.223 as well! If we're talking "go to war" I'd reluctantly leave the .308 behind due to ammo weight alone, but hopefully I never have to make that decision (or go to war for that matter)
What twist rate is this do all 18” using? 1:8?
@@markjohnson206 not a do all an SPR and 1 in 7a do all for me would be somewhere in that 12.5 to 13.7 range but the distance would suffer hard
@@mfallen6894 I love the .308 because of barrel life honestly and it just hits harder at longer range
Really enjoyed this post learned a ton...primary reason to watch👍 I own a Ruger Precision Rifle (RPR) 5.56, yes no longer available and a Unitah .223 Wylde bolt upper for AR lower, plus several other AR uppers in 5.56. The RPR and Unitah are SO much fun to shot. Accurate at 300yards...shoot all day long. MOA and sub MOA groups being conscience of barrel temp.
Great piece, changed the way I look at .233
Excellent Discussion! On my most recent AR build, I used a 16” barrel with MIDLENGTH gas system. I also switched to a fixed A2 buttstock, which has a heavier buffer and longer spring than an adjustable stock has. Recoil is virtually eliminated, and follow-ups are easier because the rifle doesn’t move when you fire it!
a 223 is still one of the best cartridges out there,,i would never be with out several,
223 twist rates and bullet weights along with barrel lengths -- matching everythings up has also been slightly difficult for me. My CZ 527 MTR 1:9 25.5 inch bolt gun vs all my AR's with 1:7 and 14.5 and 16 inch barrels - just putting holes on paper these days ...
.223/5.56 is hands down the centerfire cartridge I shoot the most and is probably my favorite. AR and bolt guns.
Love the podcast guys. Talked to Ryan the other day when I called customer support, he was very helpful!
Glad you could connect with him! He is a wealth of knowledge!
episode 222 should have been about the inimitable .222 too :). We need to resurrect that beautiful cartridge as it serves as an awesome introduction to centrefires. In addition, it would have been interesting to have a group as knowledgeable as yourselves to discuss the relative merits of both the .222 and the .223 cartridges. Edit: by resurrect, I mean renew public interest in an amazing, flat-shooting, intrinsically accurate, and extraordinarily mild recoiling round. The world needs the big manufacturers to start making these rifles again.
Very well said! We will definitely add that to the list!
Up until the early 2000’s if you asked any farmer in my country what their main rifle around the place was, they’d have said a .222 these days it’s almost always a 22-250 or a 223. They are practical people and the flatness of the 22-250 or the economy of the 223 was enough to move the 222 aside.
i love my Tikka in 223. I was lucky enough for it to shoot just under MOA with cheap bulk ammo -> perfect PRS trainer.
Haters gonna hate… but time proves the good and useful.. the .223 was designed as an intermediate cartridge… and it does that very well! I have 3 children, they all started off their hunting and shooting careers with a single shot .22 Hornet.. I hand load the Barnes triple shock X 45 grain bullet in it.. it is Devastating at short range.. 50-60 yards and closer.. many Whitetail have been brought home because of this little double deuce. So you step it up in grain weight and velocity.. .223/5.56… 55 grain Barnes X Will absolutely pass through a Whitetail end to end.. and demolish the vitals in its path.. (in it’s effective range.. considering velocity and energy for the bullet to do it’s thing..) .223 is awesome… not my (if I only had 1 gun) gun, but I wouldn’t feel at a terrible disadvantage… just have to stay within my ability and comfort zone… that said… MANY a man creature never heard the shot that pushed a 55 grain ball that took his last breath away well past 500 yds.. 🤷♂️
Very good points! It definitely has a place and has proven itself over the years!
My grandfather took many white tails with a bolt .233 with hot hand loads, works perfectly fine for that
Great podcast. Your guest is honest and knowledgeable .5.56 off the shelf in anything but 55 gr.is hard to find? The 223/5.56 and 308 are here to stay! Both are fun out to 800 yds, after that, call for an air strike.
Or stalk closer, haha
Great podcast ! Learnt so much, thanks
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for tuning in!
I think Ryan is right on. He and I have the same perspective. Have I shot targets at 1000yds +? Yes. Is it fun? Yes. Is it practical for me in my hunting? No. I like to mess around with 1000yds but, I’d never shoot game at those distances. To me, it’s just not ethical in almost any circumstance. I, like Ryan, am a 600yd and in kinda guy. I handload HUNTING bullets capable of making those kinds of shots. Regardless of what ultimatereloader might say, the eld-x isn’t a hunting let alone the eld-m. Barnes ttsx and accubonds are the way to go.
Same! I live in Michigan, my hunting ranges are going to be 400 and in. I’m lucky enough to have a 600 yard range on my property. Yes shooting 1000+ is fun but I practice being proficient 50-600 with all my hunting rigs. 👍🏻
what makes you think that the eld-x isn't a hunting bullet, when its been shown that it works well on game
@@Sanquinar thin jacket, isn’t bonded, isn’t “partitioned”. I wouldn’t consider the Sierra game king a great hunting bullet either.
@@Sanquinar shot placement is crucial no matter the bullet. But with bullets like the eld x there’s even less room for error.
Also I think the type of game being hunted matters as well. Is the eldx ok for deer sized game? Sure. But it wouldn’t be in my type 5 bullets for things such as an elk, black bear, moose, ect…..
I can’t see how an eldx is even comparable to a bonded bullet, or framed/partitioned bullet, or ttsx bullet. And for longer shots I’d take the ablr or Barnes lrx over the eldx any day.
@@craigmcmullen231 everyone has their preference which is fine and I get that. but if anything I would sooner believe that something like a Barnes or a bonded bullet would have less room for error than something like an eld-x or gameking. If you get the chance, go to black hills ammunitions website and look at their 5.56 ammunition page. They have a loading for 62gr TSX, and the 77gr TMK, which is the even thinner jacketed version of the gameking from what I understand. the TSX while penetrating deeper, has a much narrower permanent and temporary wound cavity than the TMK which still penetrates enough.
Rayan Is a Cartridge Master mine, great Podcast, 223 can do it all!!!
Yes he is! Glad you enjoyed it!
EXCELLENT evaluation. To many people discount this outstanding round.
My only .223 is a SAKO 85 Varmint. I love it. Took a row deer with it this summer. Plan on giving it a shot with hogs. It prefers longer bullets due to its 1:8" twist. 69 grain Lapua Scenar L gives the best groups. PPU Match 69 grainers are dirt cheap for the performance they offer. Haven't tried the 75 grain yet, I've got a box of them waiting, Also, I think Berger make 80 grain projectiles.
Would an 8 twist stabilize something as heavy as an 80 grain? I remember 224 Valkyrie not stabilizing something that heavy with a faster 1:7.
@@bmstylee my 1:8 stabilizes 77s just fine. Haven't tried an heavier though.
There was a 223 bullet for the Hornet, the newer ones are 224 bullets
Stop hating on Ryan guy's, he is a hunter at heart. As am I! I don't care to shoot at 1000 yds and hit steel. I can't eat steel!!! I hunt deer often with 223 with 62 gr tsx.
I've been deer hunting with a CZ527 varmint laminate .223 1/9 twist. Running Federal Fusion 62gr. It's been fantastic on deer @ medium distance. Looking at getting a 6arc to fill that roll and going to 53gr vmax in the cz to be a dedicated yote gun.
I'm a 2 gun guy for the most part. 243 for deer and everything else 223. With new tsx bullets in 223, I may be a one gun guy. It's depending on how it performs this deer season. I have been told that there is little to no difference in damage done internally on deer, between the 223 and 243 calibers, when using the large expanding, all copper bullets, that hold 100% of their weight.
Honestly it's the AR15 platform and price of ammo. My predator ammo, both 4 legged and 2 legged 😏, is $10 a box and deer ammo I can get for around twice that price. Now, I say all that but I'm such a fan of 243 80 grain ttsx from Barnes, that I'll probably never get rid of my small, light 243 single shot rifle.
I do have a 22 lr rifle for plinking and a pellet rifle for fun and to introduce my neices, nephews, and friends to shooting and/or hunting.
So if it came down to ONLY 2 guns period, it would easily be a 12 Guage shot gun and an AR15 in 556.
Nothing against you other guys, but I could listen to Ryan talk about any cartridge. Love the videos! Keep it going.
I have a Ruger American chambered in .223 Remington and have loads of fun shooting steel at 300 yards. The Ruger likes 75 & 77 grain bullets with H335 and Varget. My AR likes those also. Both are a 1:7 twist. Uses half the powder than the .308 and bullets are cheaper.
No exaggerating, no BS. I'm known as the Encyclopedia of firearms and cartridges. Ever episode I watch, you literally say what I'm thinking. Miss very little. We should have coffee lol
The .223 Remington cartridge is great. I have one in a Winchester Model 70 Featherweight. It was my very first center fire rifle. I still have it today and use it all the time. I do have to replace my 39 year old Bushnell 3-9×40 scope. So if you have any suggestions, I would greatly appreciate the help.
He's awesome in his way of thinking
I have used both interchangeably in the AR platform for years. I bought a Remington 700 cdl in the 223rem and made the epic mistake of firing a NATO 5.56 through it and it became a serious problem to remove the spent casing. Lesson learned
75 and 77 gr ammo is my choice loads for 223 wylde. The 22 Grendel sounds very interesting however, there not enough factory support yet for round.
I know one thing for sure, shooting .223 from an iron sight match conditioned AR-15 A2 or A4 in Long Range US Service Rifle Competition is the most difficult thing to do and thus it is the thing to do for any interested in developing marksmanship skills to the highest plateaus.
If I could only have one gun it would be an AR in .223, perfect for home and self defense, powerful enough to take deer, and with a .22LR converter, can easily take small game.
Killed my first deer, and several after that over the years with my 222 Remington. I've since retired it due to factory ammo selection, and use a 223 Remington every year for white tailed deer. Never had one get away from me. Took a large body 9 point with it two years ago. Shot placement right behind the front shoulder at roughly 100yrds. The deer ran 25ish yards and crashed. Shot placement, and bullet selection is key, but the 223 will due the job.
Good stuff, was really interested in the effectiveness of the .223 especially when .223 is cheaper that 5.56 here in Cali (yes behind enemy lines). Glad to hear that the effectiveness of my 18” .223 wylde won’t degrade when using standard .223. 👍🏾
You are exactly right, the technology change on .223, .308, 45ACP, 9mm, and 30-06 has changed so much it still all depends on application. And many other calibers. I am a muzzle loader shooter and shoot from .40 cal to .50 cal pistol and rifle. They need to make a small caliber in-line muzzle loader .22-38 cal. I saw this Pedersoli White Hawk 209 Rifle .177 Cal but its $479.99.
You didn’t talk about the headspace difference between the .223 and .556 , curious as to why?very informative, thanks
Your comment about the 223 being the small block Chevy of the cartridge world is even more interesting when remembering that both came out in 1955. What was it about that year?
Mr. M. to shush the masses across the table. 300 yards at something with a heart beat let alone 600; is so much more meaningful than 2 miles at a man made rock. Drop the headset sir.
I feel like they skirted around the obvious question about ethical ranges for various size game with 223, specifically whitetail
For .223 ammo, I really like some of the bonded soft point stuff. It holds together, but mushrooms to about half an inch, even bigger if using something above 55 grain. Seems like there are some restraints in terms of what our military can use, but it looks like they are now squeaking past the technicality with something like a 77 grain “match,” explaining that the small ‘hollow point’ is really just there for accuracy, not expansion.
Any particular bullet specifically that you're talking about?
@@shamrock5725 I like the Speer (CCI) Gold Dot expanding soft tips. I also like the Hornady Whitetail soft points in 60 grain. But for general use, plinking, etc, I mostly use M193 FMJ. However, for pesky watermelons, the polymer-tipped 55 grain varmint rounds see to work well.
At 10:44 "blurple" I feel that concept in my soul.
I'm a fan of weird calibers; and wanted to get a 22 Hornet; and the more I thought about it; there really is not reason to not just get 223; available brass; more options on bullets; ect. My bolt action 223 is by far my go to target rifle.
Hmmm; only guessing when the .22 Hornet fell into the category of weird calibers. Fortunately bullet design has made it more effective with time; and the low report seems to go little noticed in more developed areas. It’s a good cartridge; and I usually grab the the Hornet and leave the .223 setting….
Yeah but Hornet is a nice caliber. It's rimmed so you can chamber it in a revolver and lever guns. A 6" Smith & Wesson and a button mag Marlin 336 in 22 Hornet are two of my bucket list guns. A friend of mine has an early N-frame 22 Hornet built for his Dad by Gary Reeder. It is a tack driving MFer.
I like the .223 but I love the original .222 Remington aka the Triple Deuce. Still waiting on that #10MinutesTalk.
About 20 years ago my friends dad built a 223/6mm. was cool because it was different at the time. We did a lot of doe and hog management with it. 100grain soft point inside 100yard. We thought we were cool because nobody else we knew had ever seen one.
77grain Sierra Match King is all I run. Big fan of the Norma and Black Hills. The IMI with the Razor Core is an accurate SOB as well.
5.56mm-‘06, 85gr Nosler Partition, 1:6 twist, titanium barrel (or whatever is impossible to burn out). Call it the 5.56 Dizzle-Whilley Tyranosaur Stomper. Why not? Zing-bobba-looie, donchaknow?
Ryan is my brand of nerd. He knows what he knows and he knows what he likes and he’s confident enough to chase the odd ducks!
I owned a lot of calibers before the big ammo crunches started. I’ve actually cut my rifle calibers down to .22 LR, 5.56/.223, 6.5 CM, and .45-70.
I’ve cut my pistols down to .22 LR, 9x19mm, and .357 magnum.
I only run 12ga shotguns now.
It’s honestly not a bad life. Do I want another cartridge? Maybe…I’d like to build a nice .338 LM down the road, but I’m really happy with these I have now, and I think I can hunt any game in NA with my current setups, from squirrels and rabbits to grizzlies and bison.
I only shoot 5.56/223, 308, or 12 gauge for any reasons those cartridges are always available reasonably affordable and capable of hunting everything I hunt and like it was mentioned in ND we have alot of wildlife with wings
I've been eyeing the Henry Long Ranger lever action in .223. May have to do it now.
That mustache is epic!!! LOL
Yes it is :)
Great podcast Brothers
13:06
So, just having mentioned its prolific use on the battlefield, for now 70 years,
And its dominance and exceptional performance...
My question is this.
I was introduced to firearms with Canadian Armed Forces, at 18 years old,
And so I feel most comfortable with the 223. Because of the 5.56
Having watched your 270 winchester vs 30-06, and your 6.5 creed vs 308 winchester comparisons, with ballistic gel testing
How do the 270 win, the 6.5 creed, commpar against the 223?
I don't think.i will ever be without a 223 it is a working man's rifle ammo.is reasonable price and it will really earn its keep one of my favorites
i use 300 blk ar pistol for home defense. shorter barrel with suppressor helps with maneuver around door frames and can walk down a hallway shouldered perpendicular to the wallway traffic and not hit the wall and have room to maneuver. hp subs so that hitting targets wan't over pen and misses will not travel far outside the house (confident it wont leave the property unless arched upwards. Most engatements in a home defense will be
I love my 9in 300blk so much that I don't even own a 223 lol. With my Razor 1-6 on top I can make good hits out to 300yds and it fits in my freaking backpack.
@@musicman1eanda yea i'm looking to start deer hunting in southeast US. If i can get my hands on a few boxes of hornady's subsonic hunting rounds i'll use those. Once i move, i'll start making my own. If i can't get my hands on those, i'll just use supers.
It's one of the classics, for sure. I'm waiting for a few components, then I'll be assembling a 223 wylde, for my son to use deer hunting. It's the most affordable way for him to cut his teeth on a centerfire cartridge. In a few years, he'll carry my 30-30, but he's not big enough yet.
Those 64gr (I think?) deer season xp from Winchester really surprised me this last fall. First time I've ever used anything below a .243win 100gr'er on deer but my initial tests firing into water jugs surprised me enough to give it a try.
Took a small-ish 165lb spike-buck at about 90yd, broadside, and it just BARELY exited the opposite side (projectile broke through but was kind of dangling from the exit wound... never seen anything like it) but did a surprising job of expanding while also holding together enough to keep penetrating. On a bigger bodied 240+ lb buck I'm guessing it would run for a long while on a heart/lung shot, but was fine for a small/medium whitetail (small younger ones taste better anyway)
Keep the distance under 100yd and he should be good to go. Best of luck to you both!
I appreciate you sharing your experience, and congrats on the buck.
I was apprehensive of 223 for deer, but there's enough evidence showing it's capabilities in the deer woods. My original plan was to start him on a 243, but I can't afford 1.50/round for him to get comfortable/confident enough to hunt.
It's going to be a special season. I'll be carrying my grandfather's 725, for the first time. I was with my grandfather the last time it was in the woods. So, I get to use my gramp's rifle, on my son's first hunt, who was named after my grandfather.
I used a 223 for deer for 30 years never lost one now I have every 6.5 I think they make and I am going back to a 223 for my deer rifle all of my 6.5s I have shot deer with and they always run 50 plus yards so I am guessing they just don't do what is needed to drop a deer with in 10 yards all my 30s work on deer but I have also taken black bear with 223 so in my book you can't go wrong but there is nothing wrong with a 243 or 6mm of some sort killed deer with 243 and 6mm arc my daughter uses a 6.5 Grendel to hunt with but I think I am going to Chang that to after what happened this past year probably giving her the 6.8 spc I know it works very good for hunting
@@downeastjd1711 I hear that. Love my .243 and it's just sat for the last two years, untouched. Not paying those prices, and I ran out of primers long ago so it (along with all my other non-military calibers) has just sat in my safe as I wasn't smart enough to keep more than a couple boxes on hand for each. I won't make that mistake again, assuming we ever come out of this shortage...
I hope you didn't take it as me trying to sow doubt about .223 for deer as I was only talking about that one load from Winchester. Guess I didn't make that clear, that's my fault. The reason I mentioned that load in particular is I've seen it on shelves multiple times over the last 6mo, and midway seems to have it periodically for about $1.10/rd (if I remember correctly) so there's a good possibility of finding it.
That's awesome that you've got your grandfather's old rifle. 725, that's a bolt gun, right? Always wanted to play around with a spitzer bullet in a .30-30 to see how much flatter they would shoot. That's a cool gun, and even cooler that it's stayed in the family!
Wish you two the best of luck; I'm sure it'll be a season/hunt your son will remember the rest of his life!
@@seanburns4632 You know, I've noticed the same thing with 6.5 Creed. Shots that would have put them down on the spot or within 15ft with a .308 or .243 have given them a chance to get up and run when I've used 6.5. Tried it for two seasons 5-6 years back and eventually sold my rifle.
Don't know why. It's not like I was taking 500yd shots or anything, all were well under 150yd, and I always wait until I have a clear broadside shot unless using a standard/long action cartridge, so it was always a mystery to me why I had such bad luck with 6.5CM on deer. I know it was developed as a target round, but they make hunting ammo for it and I believe I used either Core-Lokts or Power-Shok, same two I use in many other calibers with great success.
On 223, I ve ate 3 deer via 223 in my hands. Ruger 556. 62 grain impressed me. I knew it would work. But how well it worked I still wonder if it always performs like that. Same ammo same shot placement. Distance. Does 223 62 grain hunting style ammo always work that well?
62 and 64 gr federal work very well. I've used those for years on deer/hogs. Went to 77gr for longer range and no complaints.
mentioned a 338 straight but not a 300 blackout? only thing I think was missed. Only other thing would have been twist rates in the AR/M-16 platform updated as the cartridge started using heavier and heavier bullets. Great talk as always.
I've been in love with the AR platform since forever, and really still think it's the best platform ever manufactured for the price out there... I will even admit I've been a fanboy of the AR15/.223" combo since forever too.
Nevertheless I started to found it somewhat laking when I started going for shorter length barrels, that are way more convenient to carry in and out of cars and SUV trucks. And I guess I wasn't alone either, since a bunch of pretty savvy people started messing with 6.8mm and some other wildcat cartridges to enhance the performance of the AR15 because the AR10 where so heavy, and cumbersome, and what have you.
Then FINALLY, enters the .300"BLK and voila! I'm back at loving the AR15/.300"BLK combo with a 12"brls where it does well everything I want done from 300m and in, conveniently in and out of any car/SUV I care to drive around in. And since I really can't see/identify squat past the 300m mark any way, I don't even have any compulsion of messing with all the 6.5mm and 6mm wonder magic cartridges that are all the rage nowadays.
In fact one of the DMR instructors argued that in a real life 2 ways shooting rages, very few people could shoot worth a dime past 300m; and most DMR trained people who could, would rather send a 84mm Carl Gustav RPG round down range, or call CAS at anything past 700m. And that's why I'm having such a hard time getting exited at anything "magic and new" that will laser-beam an ogive out there from 0 to past 1,000m.
Don't get me wrong, it does make for some great conversations at the range; but yeah make my 12"brl AR15 a .300"BLK, and my 16"brl AR10 a .308"W. Put LPVOs and 45 degree angled RDS on them, and I'm in business with probably way more real life capability than I'm able to use efficiently ... Add a TAC13 RDS installed, with the control-strap gizmo and there you have my 3 "long-guns" to rule all situations (really that gizmo is weird and scary at first, but IT WORKS...). Now add my EDC .40"SW Glock23 RMR equipped, and my .38"Spl+P S&W642 EDC-backup and I'm a very, very happy camper. :>0
Really what I mean is that I'm into modernized late 19th to early 20th century performance because it worked then, and still works today better than the average JOe ability to use them eficiently. :>0
Great video. Any chance a 300 Norma video is coming?
Not yet...but we have added that to list so - stay tuned!
You mand .223 more interesting for sure. I'm not doubting effectiveness but sometimes in my brain likes all the other ar cartridges more. 350 legend and 6 arc and 6.5 Grendel mostly.
My AR has the "Heartbreak" muzzle brake on the end. Nothing in this world has ever made my ears hurt that bad.
Id love to hear a 10 minute talk about the 30 378 weatherby
There used to be a group on RUclips Called the Long Rang Hunting Club , the .30-378 was one of their primary guns. They were doing some crazy wicked things with it and lots of conversation. Maybe they’re still around.
I need more of these for my soul... cartridge talks. Please!!! 280 rem 222rem 444marlin 30 carbine!!! 10mm
Love this stuff. More on the 243 win and what we can do with it modern day
you know you never hear of anybody shooting the 112grn 223 usually I always hear everybody shooting 55, 62,, 69, 75, 77grn but you never hear the ballistics on the 112grn which I would like to see
Who makes a 112gr? Imagine It would need a 5 twist to be halfway stabilized
223 is the greatest
@kevin pierson nope
The best all around
@kevin pierson me and my 77 year old dad only hunt for coyote
Ryan seems like the guy that uses long rang competition to hone his hunting skills.
He said the opposite of that. At 35:30 he gets asked "Ryan, do you ever shoot out further than 600 yards, just for fun." His answer is "Not really" and later he says "there's nothing for me there." And "It was fun to do, but did I learn anything? The short answer is no". He goes on to explain that since the type of rounds you are using are completely different, and that using a heavy bench rest rifle make the experiences different enough that it is unhelpful.
I agree that long range competition doesn't help in hunting. Hunting elk up in the mountains, it's not likely that you will be able to get a nice comfortable shooting position with a solid flat rest; rather you are going to be awkwardly on a steep slope shooting off your knees, or backpack, or a sloping low branch you have to stoop to use. You are probably carrying the lightest rifle and scope you can. And you don't have a bunch of time to dial everything in like you do on the bench. You are probably using a second focal plane scope with capped turrets, and you might not even have parallax adjustment (and for something like coyote hunting where you need to get on target fast, you really don't have time for adjusting for parallax). On top of that, shooting accurately is only a tiny minority of what it takes to be a good hunter. If you wan't to improve your hunting you'd be far better off spending time out in the backcountry trying to understand the movements and patterns of the animals, than you would spending a day at the range dialing turrets and trying to hit steel at 1000 yards.
I feel special today!
Well at least they were able to dispel most of the homoerotic tension in the first few minutes. Glad they got that out of the way so they can focus on talking about the cartridge.
There is at least one manufacture of Bolt Guns offering guns in 5.56 NATO...Mossberg! They may only be doing this in the Patrol and the MVP series rifles. Unfortunately I think its only available in a 1-9 twist which works great in my MVP Varmint with 53 to 69 gr bullets. Their MMR also was in 5.56 NATO as well at one time.
New subscriber and just wanted this video. I love your videos! I just purchased the Henry Long Ranger Express in .223/5.56. What are your thoughts on this rifle 31:37 31:37 compared to a bolt gun? I topped it with a Vortex Venom 3x15x44 FFP and I love it!!
The 5.56 may not be impressive with 55 grain bullets, but SOCOM made great use of 77 OTMs as their 'standard' load, and New Zealand is actually using the 77 OTM as their standard projectile in their new LMT rifles.
To add to some of what Ryan said about the 223 ai on the off season or for practice alot of people will practice lr with a 233 cuz it's cheap to shoot but another reason I shoot a 223 ai is cuz with the 40 degree shoulder u don't have to trim the case as much or at all cuz evertime u shoot a cartridge it grows little by little but with the 40 degree shoulder it doesn't as much but to the AR world u wouldn't want to chamber a AR with a cartridge that has a 40 degree shoulder cuz u will more that likely have problems with it presenting to the chamber if u look at the new nosler cartridges idk about all of them but the 28 nosler has a 35 degree shoulder on it idk in testing if they had problems with a 40 degree or not but I thinks that's y alot of company's don't mess with reloading 40 degree cartridges like the 280 ai is the only one that they mess with but the Creedmoor is 30 degree and old cartridges r 20 degrees I believe or 25 but with a steeper shoulder angle helps boost fps but if u go ti far u might have feeding issues just depends on what u want to do I guess but I have a 223 ai and love it
great vid!
My 223 wssm going 4650 woth .408 inch group at 125 yards with 40 gr is nuts really does gas it up and knock on wood the browning a bolt feeds beautiful
awesome!
I am super interested in further development of really long 90+ grain bullets in 223. I hope more people get into shooting these bullets because then faster than 1:7 barrels will become more common.
If 224 Valkyrie didn't bomb horribly because it couldn't deliver on the hype we might have.
@@bmstylee I wouldn't call it completely dead just yet. This is still a very abnormal market.
@@newerest1 no absolutely it's dead. No one is releasing new guns chambered in it. It was a half developed cartridge that failed the hype test. My preferred shop is the largest FFL in my state and they aren't stocking guns or ammo. That tells me all I need to know. If there was a demand for either they would have it on the shelves. With all the calibers to choose from a new one gets one chance to get it right. If not people move past it and it is assigned to the pile of misfit cartridges.
@@bmstylee what about 6arc are you seeing at the same store?