Class Tier Rankings for D&D 5e: Who is the best Damage Dealer?
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- Опубликовано: 3 июл 2024
- MONSTERS OF DRAKKENHEIM is 300+ pages of eldritch horror inspired monsters for 5e by the Dungeon Dudes! Coming to Kickstarter March 26th, 2024: www.kickstarter.com/projects/... We discuss who we think the strongest class in D&D 5e is for the role of Damage Dealer. We also look at which classes the community ranked highly.
Get in on our new kickstarter here: www.kickstarter.com/projects/...
BEAT DOWN
0:00 - Sponsor
1:14 - Intro
4:35 - Artificer
7:21 - Barbarian
10:47 - Bard
15:33 - Cleric
19:42 - Druid
22:56 - Fighter
27:27 - Monk
31:42 - Paladin
37:53 - Ranger
42:25 - Rogue
46:41 - Sorcerer
50:06 - Warlock
52:55 - Wizard
56:28 - Community Rankings
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For all of the tricksy spells and clever item usage and cunning plans I've seen as a DM, nothing comes close to derailing an encounter more then the words "I use Action Surge."
I played a vengeance Paladin/battlemaster fighter multiclass that ended up leaving the campaign because of how he trivialized boss fights. Hunters mark + Vow of Enmity -> Smites, Superiority Dice -> Action Surge -> Riposte + Smite completely broke the game.
@@blingwraith6951 As a DM, reading this already hurts
@@blingwraith6951 May I ask the level spread? 👀
I was rolling up a character for a level-20 one-shot, and the group needed a tank, so I figured "hey, play a Cavalier with a halberd." Hit 9 times on the first turn of our second combat, followed by *11 times before the start of his next turn.*
DM should be ready and plan around it. Let players know they can rock with all that stuff but you make the encounters twice or three times as hard. Or just make that one player have to deal with the toughest encounters..... If you don't feel like punishing all the players.
DD: "Fireball isn't the answer to everything."
Jocat: "What are you trying to say people within fireballing distance?"
Had the same image in my head.
Fireball isn't the answer, fireball is the question. The answer is "Yes."
Fireball needs moar Action Surge.
fun fact. in one of our first DnD 3rd E. campaigns, our party was in a border land environment with ongoing battles between the two nations. We where hired by one of them, to investigate some murders, when travelling overland, we saw a group of humanoids fleeing from us at first sight. Our paladin shouted to us "Look, deserters!" our mage :"Fireball!" rest of group :"what???!!!" so for some, Fireball IS the answer 🤣
Only fireball. Just fireball. Just fireball.
One thing I don't like much about most class rankings for D&D is that it is always based on the assumption that you will reach lvl 20 and have all abilities, I'd like to see a ranking for up to lvl 10, I think 95% of the times I've played D&D I never had a character reach more than level 9 or 10.
This is why Treantmonk doesn't evaluate class abilities after level like 12. Even when you go beyond that, if you aren't increasing spell levels, then the class features tend to be so bad it makes multiclassing more appealing. If you want people to stay in their class then make staying worth it!
u suc at this game
Yeah, I see far more games peter out well before 10th level.
@@raedien Treantmonk is great, but he often misjudges some OP abilities and say they are just ribbon features. Which has made me stop watching his videos for how quickly he can dismiss certain abilities and subclasses that are really good. For example, on the Swashbuckler, I remember he said that Panache is worse than a first level spell, when it is the best social ability in the whole game. It is a charm at will with zero disadvantages, it completely breaks all social interactions, even more so than an eloquence bard. And he was just like, nah it sucks.
That one is the one that I remember, but I have seen him do that to many many abilities or spells, he is just like it sucks, and doesn't even elaborate or considers it further.
The Paladin is worth staying in but the others I would like to multi class
After these videos it would be interesting to see a video where the two of you create the best build you can (no limits, multiclass included) to fit each role.
I remember a “most powerful party” video they did that comes close to what you’re asking
Found it… probably don’t trust my links lol
ruclips.net/video/uuYFYlmdbIY/видео.html
Assassin Rogue Grave Cleric Dueling Pally Meta Sorcerer Battlemaster Fighter nova build from D4... it's just ridiculous ❤
@@ninanmathew4365 rogue plus ranger is broken af then if you add fighter for you can get multi attack increase its hella broken af
The moon druid has the ability to play every role at least passably
don't forget that sneak attack isn't really a nova ability, its consistent damage. Yes it works great on a crit, but you don't use a resource so its available every turn. Sneak attack may not allow for damage to multiple enemies, but for dps you can expect damage similar to extra attack martials without having to build for damage. It's also worth mentioning that for rogues getting a reaction attack can boost their damage exponentially, which is a unique aspect that lets them dish out a lot of damage.
Yes! Rogues can get another Sneak Attack in the round on an Opportunity Attack because it isn't their turn! But you'd have to play it smart and build ways to trigger that
More so that they uniquely get a linear increase, while everyone else gets less
Rogues can get all sorts of opportunities for a second sneak attack if they have a few levels of Battlemaster (for Riposte, etc.)...or, even better (i.e. not missing out on sneak attack dice) if they team up with a Battlemaster with Commander's Strike. It's so much more fun that with some attention paid to acting as a team, a group of different classes can be pretty epic. A paladin can kill big scary demons with a smite...a paladin teamed up with a bard to cast Hold Monster and a Grave domain cleric to cast Path to the Grave (and any number of options for even more support) can *annihilate* them.
Absolutely! I do think that rogues deserve more credit for their reliability, although that reliability can extend to squishiness as well. They are particularly potent in a party that works well as a team for battlefield positioning where even an offhand dagger without any help from dual wielding can do a lot of damage on a sneak attack if your main attack misses or you don't need to use your sneak attack to take out the first target. Plus, while the rogue's abilities are generally front-loaded, sneak attack continues to increase in potency all the way to level 20, which puts it a step above many other abilities.
Rogue could easily be the S tier choice. As you mentioned, sneak attack uses no resources and is available nearly every turn. I've never played D&D 5e with a rogue in the party and it not be the most reliable high damage dealer.
I think one of the biggest limitations of Ranger is their reliance on concentration spells. Their spell list is full of great self-buffing spells, but you generally can only use one of them at a time.
Nah they're concentrating on Entangle, Pass Without Trace, or Conjure Animals. Nothing else is good enough to take up their concentration. Of those, PWT will get the Gloom Stalker more chances to trigger dread ambusher, entangle is giving you advantage, and Conjure Animals makes a joke out of damage dealing. They're way better than what they're given credit for.
I am playing out of the abyss and I won a shield guardian golem, so I can store a spell on the golem so I can basically use to concentration spells because the golem is casting one of them and it's broken
A gloomstalker assassin with a grave cleric buddy is yucky for a DM.
Realistically, the Ranger only needs to concentrate on one at a time in most circumstances, so this is a total non-issue.
At level 4 my Horizon Walker can Crit with a single arrow, using hunters mark and planar warrior, and do 2d8+1d6 (doubled) +10+3 force damage for an average of ~38 and a max over 50 damage at level 4.
Its worth the concentration on hunters mark, so long as you can get multiple rounds in.
The relevance of Spellcasters as damage dealers relies strongly on the amount of combats per adventuring day. I was in a group where we had 1-2 combats per day. Caster could cast a leveled spell almost every attack, or lay down some AoE or consistent damage concentration spells. It was hard for non-magic users to keep up with that. But when it was longer fights or a rare occasions of a third or fourth combat going down the equation changed. Then it was the ranger, rogue, barbarian and hexblade dishing out damage reliably.
this is why Im upset when people criticize the gritty realism rule, saying it's only for hardcore campaigns. On the contrary, I think it's best for light campaigns with less combat.
I use night's sleep short rests. Two consecutive short rests without strenuous activity makes a long rest. With about 1-2 encounters a day, it's suddenly balanced perfectly for 5e
While playing a druid, and having more then two combats a day, one of the issues i had was leftover spell slots and usages of features while other classes were running dry. normally a well places entangle spell was all i needed to let everyone else deals damage. Watching paladins, clerics and others use up their abilities and slots while i sit back and wonder when i can heal. 1d8 with a rapier is nice at advantage but not when i get my 3rd level spell furry fireball.
by level 5 i leave melee players in the dust. Conjure animals. I highly doubt anyone has figured out just how much damage this one spell is capable of doing for an entire hour with what is listed in the spell. An example is 8 wolves. Each has pack tactics, and each can do an average of 7 damage a round or 56 damage and you the player can still attack. then you can turn into a black bear and add another 12 damage to that. 68 damage and 8 strength saving throws. At that point, for an entire hour of nonstop combat, a round being 6 seconds and giving the best possible scenario, 6 seconds equals a round, 40,800 damage for the life of conjure animals. This would make it the highest possible damage out put spell at level 5. Conjure animals also has a list of what you can summon so dm aproval is not required and it lets you choose what you summon, not the dm.
When you cast this spell using certain higher-level spell slots, you choose one of the summoning options, and more creatures appear: twice as many with a 5th-level slot, three times as many with a 7th-level slot, and four times as many with a 9th-level slot.
8 wolves becomes 16 with a 5th level slot, 24 wolves with a 7th level slot, and 32 with a 9th level slot. Doubling the damage of just the wolves is 67,200 damage in an hour and this is just the 5th level version of this spell.
@@TheKillerman3333 There is a huge difference between sustained damage classes. Where Druid with his Concentration spells is the unparalleled God tier,
when the adventure day lasts long enough. And, on the other side, burst classes like the Paladin.
Also, the Druid is laughing at that Fireball Wizard in "that`s a lot of damage!"Spike Growth: More damage to more enemies. But, to compensate, it is cast with a level 2 spell slot.^^
Indeed: When the adventure day, instead of the recommended 6-8 fights, lasts only ever 3 battles, with Short Rests between them, the Druid gets actually sold terribly short.
If one is not fighting the one BBEG, where the Paladin comes absolutely to his own, the "best" measure for the "damage dealing potential" is probably not DPR,
but Damage per Day. - Leaving Monk, with his Ki points, at D tier. And, Druid goes waaaaay up here.- Even before maximizing the value of his Conjuration spells.
Wizards / Sorcerers / Bards may be stronger at actual controlling, with short-term tactical nukes like Hypnotic Pattern and Polymorph, though.
@@Badbentham though wizards get access to more druid spells then druid getting wizard spells
OP, you must not have had a Druid.
My party has a tempest cleric, and he’s great. Once, we were up against like 50 kobolds, and he flew up on his broom of flying and vaporized them all with call lightning. It was awesome
"I feel like this is the one time I'm giving the Bard a D."
Every bard player watching this video: ...heh heh.
;)
Take my like and get out.
Bard here, I definitely smirked
Wow
Like #69 here.
Other classes: "You can't just use Fireball in every situation!"
Wizards: "What's your point, person in Fireball range?!"
“Oh, nothing, person in sneak attack range”
I am a forge cleric, so fire doesn’t bother me. LOLOL
JoCat never disappoints.
I cast absorb elements and then shoot you five times with sharpshooter.
Hold on a sec [moves into longbow range instead] sorry what was that? I can't hear you over the sound of Sharpshooter
I really hope the Monk gets some serious love in 5.5 / "One". They really need it. A few Monk-only Unarmed Combat related feats would be nice, as well as an earlier capstone ability, plus just some better cohesion within each subclass abilities. Only the Way of Mercy pulls it off right. I hope they really take a look at how the Way of Mercy is put together and just fixes the others to be more like that. Here's to hoping...
I would love to see a ninja monk, kartanas, knumb chucks, sai, and so on! Not just unarmed!
100 percent brother. buff monks
A subclass that gives you the "Unarmed Fighting" fighting style would be pretty awesome, so you don't have to multiclass into fighter for it.
@@Cloudstrife112233 Giving one subclass a thing doesn't fix the entire class. If they had a few fighting styles available to them, that would be a step in the right direction
Frankly I think just giving the monk a fighting style fixes it big time
Saw Drakkenheim being advertised in Critical Role. I hope that gets you guys even more much deserved exposure!
One thing to keep in mind, paladins damage doesn’t drop off at higher levels thanks to Improved Divine Smite. At level 11, your accuracy is pretty solid, so you’ll see your paladin adding +2d8 every turn. On top of all the other fun things they do.
1d8 with improved divine smite, doesn't take away from your point though
@@ADT1995 right, and with two attacks. At those levels it’s pretty easy to land attacks.
@@izaac05 I see what you are saying now. And yeah by level 11 you expect to hit
@@izaac05 three attacks with a stick n board pally 😁
Shout out to the Dissonant Whispers spell as a damaging dealing option for the Bard! Provoking attacks of opportunity with a spell is highly underrated!
Agreed, but that dips into control. When the paladin and barbarian are flanking the disonant whispers target it can be a massive boost, but it requires set up.
@@knate44 maybe. The control aspects are light though. If you can provoke 2 attacks of opportunity though? That damage can be huge
A low levels sure. At high levels I would much rather use a reaction for counterspell and silvery barbs etc instead of a single weapon attack.
I played a lore bard with a lvl 6 team and with conjure animals and dissonant whispers I consistantly did 70-80 pts of damage each round. Definitely a specific build but I consistantly out damaged the rest of the team at that level. (Eldritch knight, redemption paladin, soul knife rouge)
@@logancuster8035 yes but those are other charaters attacks of opportunity, you setting up other, you aren't doing the damage yourself.
1) “Nothing warps combat encounters more than ranged combat”. Maybe this is the best reason NOT to ignore ammunition tracking. Give archers a one quiver limit and make them weigh their options for when they need to get into the thick of it (because as mentioned, all archers are also capable of fighting in melee).
2) Nice to see the non-spellcasters FINALLY getting some love :)
Technically the counter for that is that the Archer can make arrows with the Woodcarver’s tools. Every short rest makes 5 arrows and every long rest makes 20. Combine that with the 50% recovery rate of arrows, the ubiquity of them on the battlefield and the minor cost - counting arrows is not much different then whittling when you are watching grass grow.
Most ppl will rank martials higher than spellcasters when it comes to dealing damage because most ppl will say that there are better things to use your spells on than damage
Two levels in artificer cures this, or three in hexblade depending on your dm.
@@leodouskyron5671 ... in a wooded area where you can actually collect the materials... and also gonna be expecting you to pick up that tool proficiency. Still as manageable as you'd like it to be. Any background can convert one skill or tool proficiency to another (DMG) and any race with a weapon prof can convert it to a tool prof (Tasha's). Of course if you really must begin without doing that, there's always an Artificer dip. Point being, it isn't free if you don't want it to be.
@@leodouskyron5671 However, the archer's player needs to have chosen proficiency in Woodcarver's tools...
People are STILL sleeping on the Ranger. Post Tasha’s, it’s actually quite good! I agree with the Dudes: Ranger more consistently does damage than most classes. Part of it lies in the Archery fighting style which makes them super accurate.
I think Ranger is the best half castor damage dealer. Paladin can do more damage but only a few times, while Ranger can have up to 3+ modifiers for every hit without using a single spell. And Hunter’s mark is 1st level while Smites are 2nd or higher. I think it still doesn’t beat Fighter, but I definitely think it’s up there.
@@princestarfy4098 I would argue the hunter conclave can match or even pass the fighter. Sure you only get one extra attack as a ranger, but with horde breaker every weapon attack lets you make another attack against another target with the same weapon, so now 4 attacks, add in swift quiver and 2 attacks as bonus action each making horde breaker activate again, your looking at 8 attacks per round for the 1 minute swift quiver lasts, the fighter is only getting 8 attacks in up to 2 rounds where they use action surge.
even a gloom stalker heavy weapon build can do competitive dps .
@@princestarfy4098 paladins and rangers are in the literal same boat with hunters mark vs smites. Smite is higher burst damage while hunters mark is smaller sustained damage each attack but both use 1st level slots
@@princestarfy4098 Hows that? Example level 5. Ranger with +5 dex with Hunters Mark would be 4.5+5+3.5 x2 = 26 dmg. Paladin, sword and shield, using Divine Favor and Dueling Fighting Style does 4.5+7+2.5 x2 = 28 dmg. There I just out damaged your Ranger without using Smite.
Before watching, bard is D-Tier. Crowd control and buffs do not give you a lot of damaging spells.
Without multiclass, yeah. A Hexbard Swords college dude gets pretty gross starting at 7th or so level. Hex+curse+dueling+flourish and 2-3 attacks starts to add up, especially if you can focus on a single target. Later, you are dropping animated object swarms and summoned permanent griffons etc so you would outpace a martial pretty handily even in combat. Being a martial is just sad
@@rexringtail471 or I can play my instrument and the entire battlefield is now charmed and combats over. The bard can certainly be good at damage, but to do it you need to multiclass into possibly the best gish subclass, speaking more of the hexblade's power than the bard's.
@@dakotaanderson7906 in that multiclass you need only 1 level of exblade to attach with your charisma, a sword bard is a good damage dealer on his own
@@dakotaanderson7906 >best gish subclass
Bladesinger laughs
@@jpjfrey5673 hexblade is a better gish imo, but the updated BS is very very close. The main difference is a hexblade is more of a martial that can cast some spells while bladesinger is a full on caster that can get down and dirty in the trenches. Mainly due to warlocks having limited slots and bladesinger having basically full wizard repertoire + sweet martial skills.
I’m really loving building an artificer. I know it’s not the best damage dealer but since it’s a party of me and a Cleric, two support classes can be phenomenal together. The sustainability is going to be outstanding. We can both heal each other and as long as the enemies aren’t healing for more than we’re hitting for, we’ll be able to take almost anything.
artificer battle mage with a gun with the reloading infusion, sharpshooter and faerie fire and extra attack can put out some pretty impressive DPS, 3 level dip for battle master to get a +2 to your attack roll (lvl 1) action surge (lvl 2) and then precision shot (lvl 3) and you are consistently hitting with your pistol (1d10+int+10+1) or your musket (1d12+int+10+1) and using action surge you can make that shot 4 times (will use all your superiority dice, but good nova) you will have a +6 to hit advantage on the attacks (faerie fire) and if they all hit and you have +5 int it's a minimum of 72 points of damage and a max of either 81 or 83. and you can still keep up 2 shots per round.
I love these videos. My favorite part almost every time is the disappointment with the monk. Can’t wait to see your take on what the Monk could be in your upcoming Kickstarter book!
Totally!!
A DM must hack the Monk a bunch.
I don't get why some people can't admit Monks only get decent if the DM tries their best to make them better. Meanwhile, other builds get nerfed by DMs because they're gamebreaking lol. You can have amazing and fun flavor with your Monk, but it's still poorly designed (and WoTC won't admit this either xD)
@@willmena96
Well posted.
@@willmena96 I'm with you. People think we shit on the monks because we have some sort of bias or animus against them. No! I played a monk, and I loved him. But he was weak - and the class needs a fundamental rework. We crap on the monk because we want to see them propped up in line with other classes, that's the ONLY reason we do it.
@@thecognitiverambler8911
Agreement.
That's what so good about this channel the D. Dudes keep it real.
Like, the Bard beat the Monk.
Feels like short-changing the sorc to gloss over metamagic. Quicken and Twinned are so broken for burst damage, and lets them get more mileage out of solid cantrips like Firebolt so they can save their spell slots.
Giving the Paladin almost an S for their nova potential, and then handing the Sorc a B feels really weird.
A level 5 sorcerer will "do" more damage by twin casting haste on the martials than it will by blasting. I feel like the challenge to rate a sorcerer here is that they, by virtue of how you build a sorc's spell list, can be built to do anything.
Quicken spell should really allow you to ignore the bonus action cantrip limitation imo...
Y'all take these guys seriously? lol
Those are both really good metamagic options, but I think the Dude's point is that they are so resource intensive in terms of metamagic points you will be out of metamagic while the fighter is still slashing away like a deranged blender. Personally, I think the Sorc deserves an A ranking, but I can see where they are coming from.
The monk is one of the best damage dealers for the first few levels, it's just a shame that once you hit like level 5-ish, they fall off HARD.
Way of the Long Death potentially can dump 20d10 in a single attack
Monk has some fairly severe resource issues too. I feel like it needs a rework, Treantmonk did a good job solving those issues to bring it in line power wise - he even made sun soul playable.
@@recursiveslacker7730 Heres hoping with D&D One
@@recursiveslacker7730 The resource issues are needed to keep them from being hands-down the best damage dealer early game. Having 3 attacks at level 2 is really really good.
I think Monk is the best class in the game until level 5 then it becomes the worse class in game…
I feel like they forgot one very important feature of the wizard - Arcane Recovery. May not seem like it would make that big of a difference, but being able to get extra spell slots back on a SHORT rest is huge as a main spellcaster, even with it only being allowed once per day. You get a lot more spell mileage, especially on days with many encounters. Admittedly, what you do with those spell slots is entirely up to you, whether it’s utility or support or damage, but it does allow for the possibility of more damage overall in a 24 hour period.
I will also note that we tracked kills in our first major campaign, and the Paladin in our party was beating me consistently until we reached mid to higher levels. Then it switched due to the AOE factor and more available spell slots. My wizard also did the most damage of the whole campaign in one turn at 13th level due to a rule technicality - I cast Tidal Wave on some fire elementals for a total of 280 cold damage.
But then in this regard they don't hold a candle to Warlocks, who get every spell slot back every time your party has a short rest, without expending a class ability, it's just there.
@@orvixvaxis724 warlocks also have 2-3 spell slots for majority of the game, as opposed to 9+ spell slots
Wait until they hear about elves
Monk being so low in community just makes me think back to way back when. Wasn't 5e, but 3.5. We were playing a fairly high-power campaign, and at one point, our half-giant monk ended up using flurry, dealing a combined total damage damage of, of all things, 666.
I really love all the recurring damage you can do as a Druid. Setting up turn one with spike growth or insect plague, getting damage every turn, pushing with thunderwave or pulling with thorn whip, and still being able to drop things like Erupting Earth or Blight. Those numbers add up, especially for Wildfire and Stars who get decent bonus action damage as well. I would have fought for the B tier for my nature bois
You can summon 8 giant poisonous snakes that do 3d6 poison damage plus 1d4 bite damage. That's level 3 conjure animals btw. So higher levels you can do 24 giant poisonous snakes!
A Shephard Druid summoning mass quantities of velociraptors with multiattack and pack tactics doing insane damage every round is nutty. It does require some DM houseruling though since RAW you can't choose what you summon.
Just a pack of wolves is terrifying, even with the "you can only summon what you know" rule. Or giant vultures. Honestly, just being a bad ass bear at low levels with a Moonbeam is pretty sweet and consistent damage. I did Moon druid to level 12, and was very happy with damage output and my place in the party throughout. I always felt vital.
I'm personally playing a Support Paladin in one of my games, focusing on casting spells like Shield of Faith, Bless, or Heroism to help keep some of the squishier characters standing or support the party's damage. Even still, Smites are very fun to do. We just hit level 5, so I'm excited to have more spell slots to better mix support with damage.
I feel like the casters' ability to AOE an encounter was grossly undervalued
The issue casters have is they all have limited spell slots, and their AoE damage is only really good at dealing with the minions, while their single-target damage tends to lag behind, meaning their slots are better used for support or utility, such as slow or haste
Also a lot of the big AoE spells come up against saving throws and resistance.
@@thatonguy2407 considering that 5e is a game of action economy, destroying hordes of minions should be valued higher.
@@shoulung6203 their AoE is the only reason casters are above C tier. Their single-target falls behind the martials, they have limited slots that are better used to do other effects that are overall better than just doing some damage, and once their slots are down, cantrips are about as damaging as a wet noodle
@@thatonguy2407 well, they did use a level 20 fighter to show 8 attacks per round, so I think talking about unlimited scorching rays and thunderwaves counts as good dps. I'm in the middle of a fight in Strahd right now where we went to the monastery and there has to be 40-50 1/4 CR creatures coming at us, that can whittle our party down in no time, even if we had a level 11 fighter with three attacks per round. A wizard is going to go a long way to dropping those minions down so we can actually make it to the fight with the abbot to let the martial types do that good single-target damage. Sadly, my bladesinger multiclass is built for smiting, so we're stuck using thunderstep and lightning bolt from another character to make any headway; wish we had a full-blown wizard right now. sure, fighters rule the single target or small group dps, but spellcasters are going to take it for large number fights, just pointing out that there's a bias for small scale and single target dps here.
The monk that is playing in my campaign took fey touched to bump their uneven wisdom score and she took fey touched with hex. That realy bumped her dmg especialy in bossfights.
I used this same feat and found it to be a great boost
Fey-touched is super strong grabbing Hunter's Mark or Hex. I used it on Artificer Armorer as well, and I may even use it on my Star Druid in an upcoming campaign to boost Archer Constellation damage.
I did the same thing... but mine was a human so IT was kinda a free feet. MY DM hates me cause he brought guns into the world and with Athlete I'm sliding around jumping around and making him really have to work for a critical hit. I'm also the only person without a gun which is hilarious as even the warlock has a pistol. Rogue, Warlock, Bard and Monk. (also shocker I have the highest Str score with 11.. go fig right)
Gonna be playin monk next campaign and I'm using this now. Was already gonna power up my monk with 3 levels into battle master fighter, I will be unstoppable with hex/hunter's mark and action surge.
This combo is really strong at ~level 5 where your high number of attacks(3-4) will benefit the most of an extra d6. There are some risks/downsides though.
It takes a feat/ASI, and Monks are generally MAD. Luckily it still gives a +1 to Wis, so it is not a huge setback.
It is 1 cast per long rest and it takes your bonus action(which yoou often use for extra attacks). You have to pick when and where this will be useful.
It is concentration(so can be lost due to damage taken) and it can be dispelled/counterspelled.
It does not scale. It is awesome at level 4-5, but at level 10 and beyond, you generally wont have it active for long(see above) and the payoff is much smaller. At least Hex will give disadvantage on checks(great for grapplers), but Hunter's Mark does not have that great in-combat utility, except if an enemy tries to hide.
War cleric is a huge damage dealer with a caveat, they need to use spells like crusaders mantle. They don’t increase JUST their damage, but the entire parties damage. That can be far better than just one guy hitting hard.
An upcast Spiritual Guardians is terrifying all by itself. Ten minutes of upto 9d8 damage per turn.
My party: Ah, the healer.
My cleric: You don't know what kind of god I serve. 😂
Lol, I just started playing a cleric in a game and I summed up my character with the sentence "I'm not that kind of cleric."
Played a Life Cleric that wanted everyone around her to value life, ended up killing the most enemies during the campaign. lol
@@LupineShadowOmega you WILL value life, as it leaves your body. Fear of death and valuing life are the same as far as my god is concerned.
@@adaelion3772 To be fair she tried very hard to convince the party's enemies to not throw away their lives in foolish conflict. But when conflict happened, Toll The Dead was not a game.
Im playing a grave cleric in a campaign and theres a running gag that for him to be more focused on buffing the party, he somehow finds a way to explode an enemies head all over the barbarian every combat
Shout out to the Spiked Growth spell as a very impressive damage option for the Druid! You need ways to force enemies through it he spikes, thorn whip comes to mind, but goodness it can be powerful.
I actually had a party member take spike growth for a hold the line oneshot. That simple spell, shredded a healthy chunk of the encroaching enemy forces if not killed then out right since they were in a position with no choice but to go through that prickly terrain.
I know this is more specific, but Swarmkeeper Ranger. Rangers can also cast the spell, and after hitting the enemy, have them do a Strength Save or be forced 15 feet through the Spike Growth in ANY horizontal direction.
@@MagusDouken Even better, try a Dao Genie Warlock. You get spiked growth added to the Warlock spell list. You then take Agonising Blast, Grasp of Hadar and Agonising Blast as invocations. You then repeatedly blast enemies back and forth in the Spiked Growth like a cheese grater with no saving throws. It's a horrifying amount of damage.
@@MagusDouken Oh damn, yeah that's even scarier XD. Saving this for later^^
@@TheHandgunhero Sounds fun, but I thought of mine because I am currently a Swarmkeeper Ranger in my current campaign so the thought came to mind.
But you mentioned Agonising Blast twice lol
Can't wait for the summative video on all classes! Awesome episodes! Thanks!
I think depending on level drastically changed each class on your list, I think if you did a level break down on when each class is the strongest at its peak would grant greater insite into the rankings and would justify them better, thanks for the video, I think it was good and look forward to more
I would have bet anything that Monty would make a case for the Wizard being S tier. It’s nice to see martial classes finally getting some respect
Isn't sorcerer the highest dps with twinned spell potential?
@@kief453 also i think more bang for their buck using any sort of dmg spells.
@@kief453 not consistently
To be fair they overrated Fighter in my opinion. I can name 4-5 classes that will on average per round out dmg Fighter 9 out of 10 times easily. Its a good solid dmg dealing class, its not a great dmg dealing class.
@@Dave004 I’m curious now, which classes do you feel can out damage the average fighter? I’m sure there are exceptions with a few subclasses but IMO nothing compares to a fighter when playing with feats
So I have been listening to y'all's campaign and I gotta say I love the characters and the way the story is told definitely going to have a new Patreon member can't wait to see what else you guys doo
Worth mentioning that Eldritch Blast scales with fighters extra attack up until tier 4, at which time they get their 4th attack 2 levels sooner than a fighter.
Fighter can gas up their attacks with magic weapons, GWM, etc so I’m not saying it’s like for like, but warlocks can also add hex, and invocations that allow those attacks to add a little battle field control.
Eldritch Blst is wild
Gets even wilder when you can cast it as a bonus action with quicken or illusionist bracers, or instead of one of your attacks as Bladesinger, while still attacking 1-2 times with your weapon. Hexblade/Bladesinger with Illusionist Bracers can get into 10 attack per turn, repeatable or 16 if you splash Fighter 2 for action surge.
no you dont?? Extra attack, not extra spell attack. Just like you dont get it for the green flame blade or w.e. its called, cuz its a spell attack, not a attack action. Please dont spread bs.
Action surge works but thats once an short rest.
I think the Cleric is being a little under-rated, mostly because upcasting SG and maybe even SW can really bring down lots of foes. For me and my War Cleric, it's always about upcasting as high as possible and maintaining concentration.
Cleric is also by far the best for the first few levels
Yeah I find when playing a cleric, because of the way it maximises your action economy, it's often still best to use your highest level slots on spirit guardians and spiritual weapon, instead of using higher level spells, because of the way over time those maximise your use of action/bonus action/passive damage.
Also some clerics get inflict wounds which does 3d10 at level one.
@@RandoSando. Yeah, my DM really suggests Inflict Wounds, tbh. Nasty damage.
One of the most underappreciated part of the paladin builds is how broken of a spell find steed is at lower levels its an extra attack with plus 6 to hit and doing 2d6+4 and giving the opportunity to knock the prone but more importantly having the option to just get a dash AND a disengage without using your action or your bonus action is simply unrivalred. This gets even better at higher levels with the ability to fly and do more damage with find greater steed. This spell, the Insane auras, as well as abilities like improved divine smite let the paladin really be able to keep up with the longevity of the fighter with the ability to do crazy Nova damage with your smites.
Personally as someone whose played both Paladin and Fighter more than once, I'd edge out Paladin slightly for damage per round but you could argue it depends on the build (taking polearm for example on one vs the other). Action Surge is powerful, and 3x attacks at lvl 11 is too, but Paladins getting Smite, Spirit Shroud at lvl 9 and Improved Divine Smite at lvl 11 will out dmg the Fighter most times I believe.
There's also a great counter to how messy summon animals is..
You don't have to summon them on the ground. A group of Aurochs falling 20 ft onto your enemies becomes a very druid flavored mooteor swarm. 😂
“We saw a fighter kill two dragons in one turn in a recent session”
Sebastian Crowe was also surprised by Rudi.
Artilerist artificer is actually a really fun blaster with basically multi attack with the turrets and extra d8 on spells cast from your gun which depending on whether you count cantrips as spells can really transform how nasty they can be.
Would be nice to get a full comprehensive table of all classes, party-roles and grades.
I don't think they have done a video yet on the best Faces.
After this series I'd love to see a summary recap on the results for each class for each archetype.
You dudes never fail to make entertaining and informative videos. Love your channel. 💕
The thing that gets me is why did the Ranger not get more love. It is drop dead simple to make them do effective damage and strategy that they bring when magic and archery together (sometimes with critters too) … I guess I am just missing the love.
Guys - Druids are “B” tier because it you cast or Wild shape it the zoo will run all over your target.
Ranger suffered from "Fighters are better Rangers" jokes all the time and just had to deal with a specific light for the longest time until Tasha's gave it the well deserved boost it needed. So, for now, its reputation is still in the medical wing recovering from the constant stomping.
I'm playing a Harengon Swarmkeeper and loving the hell out of her.
I feel like a lot of votes come from people that take memes too seriously. They think Rogues are Stealth Archer from Skyrim and that all Rangers are Beastmasters.
Rogues get a lot of benefits if the DM grants them advantage like candy and if the monsters are played in easy mode. As soon as you lose Sneak Attack, you lose everything. Meanwhile, Rangers can do a lot of stuff, have spellcasting and other subclass features that help them a lot. Sure, they aren't fighters, but that's just an unfair comparison lol
Rangers are similar to warlocks in my book. Both got an A? You think ranger should get an S??? No shot. Unless you mean by the community? Before the ranger was revised and strong sub classes were added, it was considered one of the worst classes besides monk. Some subclasses are bonkers like gloom stalker.
@@joshholmes1372 I don’t understand your point. I think you don’t either. You I think believe that people only vote for S? I don’t think that was my point and so I have no real answer for you. Also, we are in 2022 so if you are talking about 2014 Ranger we’re talking apples and oranges.
@@leodouskyron5671 you said that you were surprised they didn't get more love. At first, I assumed you were talking about from the DDs, then I thought maybe you meant from the community. If it's the first, they get plenty of love at A rank. If it's the latter, I can agree that the community is behind the times and likely haven't given it a try due to stigma and should get more love from the community.
There's a min-max player in my current playgroup who's playing a level 7 ranger that seems to consistantly dish out more damage than the barbarian in our group. He's even a close contender with my fighter. The ranger can be scary, if built right.
Gloomstalker with SS, archery style, and either vhuman or elvish race for Elven Accuracy?
Once you get into multi-classing options, I think the Ranger shoots up even more. Get five or six levels of ranger under the belt and then go into rogue or fighter, or even barbarian and you can really wreck face. The best damage dealer I've made started as ranger and then moved into rogue at mid levels and then Fighter for the mid-late game. By level 15 I was dishing out 100+ damage every round consistently. It was awesome.
Playing a horizon walker in avernus currently wit a wizard druid and monk, best place for this class and I am wrecking face.
It's a good feeling to see the ranger capable of being the hard hitter wit our current game system!
Thats how it should be. Barbarians are not built for damage dealing. They dont get anything that scales the way fighters and paladins get
This isn't surprising. Barbarians scale terribly after 5 and just don't get much stronger from 6-20.
I was surprised you guys didn’t show your picks on a table like you’ve been doing with these videos. Really helps get a more comprehensive view of your choices
They did; it’s just before the community rankings section
Clerics are easily A tier for damage. I played a Death Cleric in a campaign from level 1 to 10 and my damage was almost always the highest. Sustainable high damage is fairly rare and the cleric does it very well.
Yea the damage cleric does deal pretty good damage
Exactly, death, war, forge, light and tempest all have amazing damage capabilities. I played a Arcane Fighter/Forge Cleric multiclass and damn i did some damage (not the highest but def low to mid A tier). Not only that, i was more tank than our fighter being able to get an on demand AC 27 or something, with minimal effort. Full Plate armor + shield + shield of faith + reaction shield + forge domain armor buff + absorb elements. Even with all the melee shenanigans i still provided crucial support as a secondary support.
As a DM i would fear this build together with a more support focused paladin. Both being able to bring the hurt and the heal.
Also a strategy we used was me grappling a foe, the sorcerer casting a careful fireball. With fire resistance from the forge cleric I’d only take 1/4th damage 😂.
@@joranvanolphen9892 with so much utility as well . now the poor monk should be able to be buffed
Yeah, playing Tempest Cleric here and I am really loving my "Destructive Wrath" and my passive, "Wrath of the Storm."
Loved the vid good to see martial characters finally getting some love. I think I disagree about casters though. I mean our casters have ended entire encounters with one spell. End of the day I love the martial for single target but it would take about 5 or more turns for a fighter to do that much damage because they are dependent on focused damage. Not that it's bad but I think for the mere fact that AOE exists it should put them on par or better than a martial. Sure they have fuel of spell slots but you don't need a full tank of gas if one slot can end an encounter.
My fighter has been known to do over 200 damage in one round.
@@panpiper Awesome.
Fighters don’t get 4 attacks until level 20 and action surge can only be used twice in a combat encounter. A 20th level sorcerer or wizard can easily output more damage with meteor swarm (which is a more appropriate comparison than fireball). Sure, you could say a fighter has more damage output in a sustained combat (more than 6-ish rounds) but I would argue a blaster wizard or sorcerer easily outputs more damage. Especially if you only look at class abilities and not adding feats into the equation
still the fighter is the only class that get 3 attacks at level 11, witch level 6 spell do more damage than 6 attack in around?
And fighter got a ton of class abilities to add damage, save for purple kinght, all the subclass have way to add more damage to your attacks.
@@fabiovarra3698 Harm or an upcasted Blight easily surpass 3 weapon attacks, greatsword is an average of 7+STR mod so average 28ish damage, fireball a level 3 spell is average 24 damage. Harm does 60 damage. Spell damage easily puts out more damage than weapon damage. In a combat that doesn’t drag out to 8-10 rounds, spell casters do much more damage
@@evansiegel5660 Yeah, but feats do exist and they largely benefit martials. most fighters will be doing 58 damage in that example maybe more if they also went PAM or crossbow expert. So the fighter will equal or exceed harm round after round.
@@evansiegel5660 Harm and Blight are both constitution saving throw, the most common high stat for monsters (and the avarege for 14d6 is 50). Your lucky if you do more than 30 damage with most single target spells. Disintegration is an exception but only because if the target saves you do nothing. Probably animated objects is your best option.
Great video. I think you might be mistaken about Artillerists though since they have all kinds of synergy with their features and canons or spells to increase damage and can use Shatter combined with the SSI to add significant extra damage per round provided that they can give it to a familiar or tiny servant or a party member who has nothing better to do to with their bonus action. They might even qualify as an A tier blaster once they get to level 11 and of course it gets even better at level 15.
I think this might even work with Catapult in the SSI even though it is single target damage, especially if it can be stored in the SSI at level 2 since that would be 4d8 damage.
Bilbrons & Dragons has a video on RUclips that lays it out pretty convincingly. Bilbron Artillerist - Artificer Build Series - D&D 5e. This build is pretty great, and it doesn't even include somethings like picking up Hex from Fey Touched or using firearms that might even increase the damage output.
To be fair, one of the great tragedies is that the Dungeon Dudes have never had a competent druid on their table. From the druid subclass rankings, to the rankings for the roles, you guys really need somebody to show you the complete dickery and cataclysms the druid is capable of.
The Druid is probably the best class for shenaniganary. I fear any player that ever brings one to my table.
They acknowledged it with certain builds, but not as a whole do they see it as high.
I'm currently having an insane amount of fun as a BarBEARian as a Kalashtar. 2 levels of Druid and now 3 levels of Barb (Animal Totem-Bear) while raging I have resistance against all forms of damage and the Sentinel feat is busted in melee battles. It's a blast.
@@FutureOverYou Ah good ol Bear Totem. Busted at level 3 XD
a level 11 wildfire druid that knows a fight is coming can summon his wildfire spirit, then cast investure of fire, then finnaly wildshape into a direwolf and run into the fight as a flaming fenrir that shoots out fire as his action and teleports around the battlefield as a bonus action. With a little help from your friends you can even use your reaction to deal damage with your couterizing flames - or use it to heal your friends if they ask really nicely :) and lets not forget that if an enemy ends its turn next to you they get burned and if they try to move away after attacking you (and they dont disengage) you get advantage on your opportunity attack thanks to direwolf having pact tactics and your wildfire spirit being right there next to you.
Have a good feeling for the barbarian for the first time in awhile!
I don’t tbh. Its great for tanking damage but only B tier for putting it out
Unfortunately, past around level 5, fighter just pumps out more damage more consistently. Fighters just get so many good class and subclass features that add to your damage every round, whereas barbarians kindof have to rely on brutal critical crits to put out as much damage as a fighter does on any round. Past level 3 barbarians don't get anything that lets them pump out damage nearly as consistently as fighters :/ Fighters also get more feats that let them take GWM and PAM while also maxing out their strength pretty early on.
@@Bidniss. I think one of the reasons why Barbarians are often seen as a great damage dealer is because it's one of the best fit with the Great Weapon Master Feat ...they can attack with advantage at anytime (reckless attack) and can therefore reduce the effect of the -5 to hit, and can then add the +10 damage often !
@@Bidniss. It very much depends on your assumptions. Advantage from Reckless Attack actually keeps the Barbarian at equal or greater damage than the no-Advantage Fighter. However Fighters can get Adv otherways which enable them to out-damage Barbs past level 11.
@@Herbalizer28 yeah, of course, I don't think they're bad at dishing out damage, but in my experience advantage gets thrown around enough that reckless attack loses a bit of its value.
And if we're going into multiclassing, I would much rather go Barb 2/3 and Fighter X than go fighter 2/3 Barb X.
Barbarians are very good at beating things up, but I don't think they stay as good as they are in tier 1 when you go into tiers 2, 3 and 4 because they're soooo front loaded.
One thing Id take into account with the nova classes: paladin and rogues. Their damage increases much more linearly. Every level they are upping their possible sneak or smite damage.
A fighter or barbarian by comparison will have specific points where a specific feat or extra attack ups their damage and then they platou for a while.
So, at specific levels, the novas will likely pass the consistent damage dealers until they get their next big ability.
I'm not sure I'd consider rogue nova damage. It's sustainable.
@@itspabbs Im using their terms. It has more to do with how much you are able to split the damage up between multiple small targets. Rogues nova a single target rather than take down many minions within one turn.
there is no fear like hearing the high level fighter say
'and I action surge'
and I feel you guys did an important distinction in thinking in terms of a sustained fight and not just ' we are trying to end this encounter before anyone gets a second turn'
Action Surge isn't that impressive though, its good Nova but so is a Paladin with Smites. And once you get to lvl 11, Fighter with 3x attack vs a Paladin with Improved Divine Smite and Spirit Shroud up, Paladin will outdmg that Fighter every step of the way. Add Polearm to both Fighter and Paladin, and Paladin will do even more dmg per round on average than Fighter. The only thing I can think of the Dungeon Dudes did to somehow think Fighters do such good dmg is assuming GWM hits every attack, which is nonsense.
As someone who played a monk for years as their first ever character, I would have to agree with Monty's better judgment and give them a D here. Even changing my subclasses to Drunken Master halfway through, it was hard to hit and deal much damage to anything. I was the guy who used stunning strike and backed away. It's sad. Hope the dudes fix Monks in Sebastian Crowe's!
I mean, monks can use crusher and with all of the attacks/stunning strikes you really tip the scales on crit potential. It's unreliable, but when you crusher crit or stun you increase the damage of everyone. It doesn't scale them up to A or anything, but I feel B is very fair. There are also some good magic tattoo options to bump damage as well. I definitely wouldn't ever give them a D, that just feels mega harsh.
TBH all I feel is missing from Monk is an option that gives them Adv on their attacks like Barbarians and Rogues get.
@@agilemind6241 well, that's kind of a big feature of stunning strike (aside from effectively removing the victim's turn) in that if it's successful at the start of your turn, you then have advantage for the rest of your current one and the next one.
I am thinking that monks should have an innate ability to mark an enemy similar to what some of the ranger subclasses can do. Hex and hunter's mark are 2 of the best damage boosting spells for characters that attack more than 1 time per turn, but require the monk to either take specific feats or multiclass while being pretty MAD.
the other big thing to note about monks is that they have pretty great damage in Tier 1. the extra 1 or 2 attacks can deal enough damage to keep them competitive with the big boys in the early levels. it's only once extra attack + GWM/PAM and SS/XBE come online that they start to lag behind due to the lack of feat support.
Being mega harsh to monks? That doesn’t sound like this channel!
i was once playing a druid/cleric in a party with two monks and with magic items, the two monks dealt a lot of damage. eventually my character changed for a gloomstalker ranger and i instantly became the biggest damage dealer in an instant. it was intestesting to see the monks performing at their best getting immediately usurped by some random ranger.
Yep. I play a Monk (with some fighter and ranger) and knock the hell out of mostly everything. The party is always shocked how far ahead (VTT tracks damage) he is, but there are no Barbarians, Moon Druid, Fighter, Paladins. I would be interested to see how far he would fall if adding a vanilla-or feated- martial.
I want to see you guys go through what an Artificer, Arcane Trickster Rogue would look like and how you would level efficiently. I've been looking at it but I can't see it really coming together till late to mid game.
Fantastic video guys! I've weighed in every time so far, so I'll weigh in again here with my thoughts:
Artificer B- : I really have a hard time placing the artificer because the subclass says a lot more than the chassis. I think B might be a little generous, as they're a bit harder pressed for feat support (depending on the subclass), and just lack the real show-stopper tools that the other big contenders get. I float between C and B.
Barbarian A-: I think you guys oversold the barbarian just a bit. I mean there's two things that I find go overlooked with the barbarian: The first is that rage is a finite resource - that in the wrong circumstances is actually pretty easy to deactivate (creatures they can't reach, for example). The second is: well, creatures they can't reach. If you're a barbarian, you're a one-trick pony. A flightless (for the most part) range-less meatbag that can hit hard when you can close the gap. But even then, I don't think barbarians get the damage support of the fighter, paladin, or even honestly ranger. So I float between B and A here due to the class' real limitations.
Bard: C: I think your guys' debate here was spot-on. The bard doesn't shine at damage, but I think Monty was right that they *could* be built to be ok at it if you worked at it a little.
Cleric: B: I think you guys were on point here also. They have some fantastic blasts, but spells are a limited resource, and clerics have other roles to play often times as well. Rock solid B.
Druid: C: This is a TOUGH one. Because yes, a druid that focuses on summoning can LAY it down. But overall I've played two druids and I was generally behind the curve in my damage output. They're better at utility and battlefield control. But if you really want to focus on damage, you can get a high B / low A I think.
Fighter: S: This is also tough for me. Because there are definitely contenders. But I mean the fighter just comes fully loaded, and hitting hard is a no brainer. Action surge is the quintessential nova ability, full suite of fighting styles, extra ASI's for the juiciest feats, and more attacks than anyone else. Can attack from up close or from afar, and unlike the barbarian in my opinion, they have better subclass support to really push them to higher limits in damage output (Echo knight, Rune knight, Battlemaster). You'd have to struggle to make a fighter who didn't hit hard.
Monk: C-: Sorry not sorry, man. The monk has TOO many problems - and Monty hits most of them. They have virtually no feat support (or resources to access them given how MAD they are), ki is limited, and their base damage just isn't great. Mix that with the fact that for the most part they're melee AND squishy, lack spells or big utility options, and the monk just comes out grossly underwhelming here.
Paladin: A+: You guys nailed it. The paladin's a pretty fantastic martial out the gate, and solid too. Add smites and spell support (which includes some real bangers such as find greater steed), and paladins will always deliver. I'm of the opinion they're the best martial class in the game. They're tanky, they lay down the law, and they have quite a good spell list to fill the gaps.
Ranger: A: I'm with you guys here too. Rangers are STILL criminally underrated even though virtually everything that was wrong with them in 2014 has basically been fixed. Gross subclass options (Gloomstalker at the top), archery fighting style, and a damn good spell list that supports utility needs AND damage boosting. Rangers are well-placed to deliver some hurt.
Rogue: B: I think I'm with Monty on this (as I usually am, apparently). Rogues have a lot of virtues here. Sneak attack does add quite a boon of damage, and the rogues are the poster-child to always having a full tank of gas which is nice. The problems of the rogue are: Sneak attack is pretty damn easy to get these days but NOT guaranteed, and it's a massive problem if you can't get it. One attack is also a big limiting factor against other martials who usually get at least 2. Rogues are solid - can definitely go higher - but they need work and planning.
Sorcerer: B: I think you guys nailed it. Sorcerers can lay it down, but they have an EXTREMELY finite spell list in most subclasses, so real building and planning is required. They sit a comfortable spot below the martials.
Warlock: A: Yup, also agree. Warlocks are basically your archer-casters in my book. They do have a weakness in that they lack some of that feat-supported wallop the other martials can access, but you make a warlock to deal good, consistent damage.
Wizard: B/A: Wizards are tough for me. I think you guys were right. If you're playing a wizard to hit as hard as possible all the time, you're probably playing them wrong as they're gods of battlefield manipulation. But I mean let's just talk real for a second. Wizards have the best spell list in the game, including some of the best blasts or summons. They have a ton of spells they can select just by leveling in ADDITION to everything they can scribe. If a wizard wants to bring the hurt, they've got the tools in their colossally immense toolbox. But when they're paired with a Fighter, a Paladin, a Rogue, and a Cleric, let's just say. Those other guys can do the damage (and basically ONLY the damage) in combat situations. How about I take care of everything else and put divide their forces? So wizards I think look more limp than they are, purely because of their abundance of combat support strengths that usually sap their attention.
My favorite build is a Barbarian(3)(Bear)/Fighter(11)(BM) with GWM&POM tons of consistent dmg some burst and extremely hard to kill.
Take sentinel for an extra bit of F that guy energy too.
You forgot to mention sorceress can move around their spell slots to get many casts of 4th or 5th level spells
And they proficiency in con saves to keep up spells that damage every round (like animate objects)
Oh how much would I love to include multiclass options and their possibilities in this rating... Yeah it would take hours... To days... But it would be worth it
One thing I think about with the fighter and it's many attacks is how it can use that to apply bonus effects from magical weapons, such as a flame tongue, or arrows of slaying. Other martial classes usually get 2 swings with that legendary god slaying sword, baring buffs like haste, where as the fighter gets 4, or 8 with action surge. That alone makes me really want to use one in an epic campaign.
Another great discussion guys
I love the "Power Attack" Comment... I'm running a few campaigns myself and I'm thinking.. why not just Remove GWM and Sharpshooter and just add Power Attack? Or perhaps just add Power Attack and just state that you can't stack Power Attack to either GWM and Sharpshooter?
I already use a homebrew version of GWM & Sharpshooter, suggested by The DC Coach, which is basically changes -5 +10 to " - proficiency number, + proficiency x 2" but I feel like this only bandages the issue, I feel like adding Power Attack might just be the best fit
At higher levels, that solution gives the user -5/+10 anyway (and then -6/+12 if the campaign makes it that far).
I wanted to add that mitheral... adds finesse to weapons (or cancels heavy) and Adamantine adds heavy (or cancels finesse)
@@CharlesUrban at higher levels, i think it’s fine. a 13th level character with a low bonus to hit and adding +10 damage on attacks is… fine, really? between magic items, high average damage like rage and improved divine smite, and the like, if you want to drop your proficiency bonus in exchange for _only_ 10 more damage on the hit i think it’s okay
I don't know about dropping Sharpshooter completely. It (and Spell Sniper) also add the ability to ignore half and three quarters cover. Maybe make "Power Attack" melee exclusive.
“Bard is great, you can fix it by multiclassing” c’mon, man!
Bard is a great class. You set your criteria. If you have to actually try to have it produce the same output that others do naturally it gets a low ranking. These are your rules. Follow them.
Bard CAN do perfectly fine damage. If the way to fix Bard is by using less Bard ….. then Bard is the low damage problem you’re solving for.
I agreed with Kelly
If the fix is multiclasding, that breaks the criteria they've been using. So Kelly is correct with a D. Otherwise, they need to go back and give every other D in other videos a C with multiclassing.
@@jamessatter7418 they’re not good at following their own criteria. If they skipped the criteria and just gave their opinion of the ratings they couldn’t possibly be wrong.
But, they keep explaining how things are rated, and then not following their own ratings.
I also agree
I don't think the D is justified, not because of multi-classing, but because D says "you can't do this except for one exception"
Bards have three subclasses that give melee boosts (swords, Valor, and Whispers) and even without that a bard is decent with a weapon in hand.
But I think the levels matter. Bard has good damage dealing options at mid to high levels. Not stellar, but they are there. And at low levels when the bard has no real damage spells? Them making a single weapon attack is in line with the fighter doing the same.
So I think C fits better. They aren't good at it, but they have options over the course of the class as a whole
Thanks for the heads up on KS, I just backed the pdf pledge.
Evoker wizard is one of those classes that I think really changes once you see it in play. On paper it sounds good but not crazy, until you're in a dungeon, it's cramped and you're being swarmed but you can still fireball with impunity.
Dm'd for one in curse of strahd where there are a lot of dungeons with narrow corridors and them just never having to worry about parry positions was huge. My opinion on the subclass changed dramatically over the course of that campaign.
Wow I'm surprised on this one, anyone in the optimization community would disagree with almost every rating
I am not saying this to disagree, but I genuinely do not know. What would the optimization community rank as the top choices?
@@mitchellholmes2850 Honestly same. Even from what I've seen from Treantmonk, the main disagreement would just be Paladins over Fighters and Rangers over Barbarians. Even I as a self-proclaimed Ranger fanboy/apologist don't even mind the class being rated under Barbarians (because Barbarians can at least have some solace between this and frontlining as the only times they are better than Rangers)
I mean, Ranged Ranger is really fucking strong, archery + Sharpshooter + Crossbow expert + Hunter's mark/Entangle is 3 attacks at Lvl 5 (variant human for free feat) with 3 extra d6s (hunter's mark)/advantage (entangle) depending on which you are concentrating
And that's before any subclass
“Bards are better damage dealers than Monks” and “there are no build options for Monks”…🤔
Great viedo! I really like you style of ranking. Please consider making a class tier ranking video on beginner friendliness/complexity.
Another great video, i love the analytics of this and it really makes you think about how things work.
I do wanna make a shout out to melee clerics though. At level 8, +1d8 on some subclasses and you cast holy weapon doing another 2D8 and then weapon dmg, lets say a morningstar or another d8 dmg weapon. Thats 4D8 + up to 5 (7 if you wanna take a fighter initiate feat for duelling) of reliable dmg plus a spiritual weapon for another d8 + modifier at the lowest level of the weapon.
So 5D8 + plus between 0 and 12 dmg (depending on stats and if u have the duelling feat) for using 2 spell slots, and if you are a death cleric you can channel divinity at this point two times for an extra 21 dmg on two hits. So if you focus on dmg with a cleric it can be pretty nasty I think, though your party might be a bit upset with the cleric that does not buff them I guess. :P
I love the rangers though, I am about to go into a new campaign at level 4 with an Eladrin fey walker ranger, that has daggers as their weapons, and likes to throw them (with thrown weapon fighting style and fighting initiate feat for archery.
I think the extra dmg from this subclass is the most interesting, though it is only a D4, but instead of you only being able to deal extra damage once per turn their ability is that a target can only take that damage once per turn so if you spread out your damage you can do that extra damage to several targets.
I really think that the Druid deserves an honorable mention A-rank for the sheer area that they can affect with some of their unique damage spells. Tsunami may not deal a ton of damage to a single target, but it affects 3600 squares in total. If you look at Storm of Vengeance, it may deal an average damage of around 21 to most targets, but it has a radius of 360 feet. For those of you that play on a grid, that’s 16000 squares, not counting the mile in height that it affects. Even if cast on a moderately crowded area like a marching army or a village, that can easily wipe out over 100,000 hp. And because these spells have the unique range of Sight, they can be cast from a mountain top up to 40 miles away, and could even potentially be cast through certain remote viewing abilities. These spells may not be effective in direct combat, but no one else has the potential to wipe out a mass of enemies at range like the Druid does. Not to mention things like Earthquake that could bring down a massive temple, or firestorm that could potentially devastate wooden buildings or ships. A high level Druid is potentially a walking catastrophe. Or flying, when they get the ability to cast spells in wildshape.
Based on how they talked about the Sorcerer and Warlock I think they prioritized single target damage over total damage possible on the board. Bird in the hand type of deal.
As much as I love Druid (played all Circles except Dream) it's a very boom and bust class for when you get to unleash the immense, devastating, raw power of nature. The spells you mention are high level, which most campaigns do not even reach. In many official campaigns it's also rare to maximize the potential of their concentration spells since dungeons and towns provide corners and doors for full cover that baddies can hide behind.
At Tier 4 Druids def deserve A if not S for being able to level entire cities, but averaged out from the lowely level 1 all the way 20 they're more of a B unless given swarms of dumb goblin enemies that stay clumped close together.
I laugh when people say druids cant do dmg . moonbeam and erupting earth by themsleves could keep you far above most martials . also if you are circle of sheperd you can wreck quite alot of face with your summons
To sum up, take 2 levels of fighter and/or paladin for the 2 best damage capable features in the game: Action Surge and Divine Smite
In your opinion which of the two would be better to take? At my table we only allow one single class of multiclassing (Two class levels at most, no dipping into a third), and I was wondering in your opinion which you think would be better?
@@knowwhoiamyet it depends on your starting class. Paladins pair well with spellcasters for the spell slots to use for smites. Without those spell slots, you won't do much smiting and the stats are harder to multiclass into.
Fighter helps literally everyone. Action surge to do another action, spell, attack, etc. And access to weapon and armor proficiencies you may want. Also, fighter is easier to dip into.
For a high level campaign I played a Fighter (2) Paladin (12) sorcerer (6). It developed organically from level 10 upward and was not optimized.
He became a sorcerer after losing his left arm below the elbow from a near death crit from a unique monster in the shadowfell and couldn’t swing his greatsword anymore. The DM gave me the sorcerer option leaning into the shadow sorcerer as kind of a corruption from the monster and the near death experience in the shadowfell.
He ended up getting a magically grafted adamantine arm that cost almost all the gold he amassed over the campaign plus a quest that took a solid 3 levels to complete.
He did so much damage with extra spell splots for smiting, improved divine smite, 2 fighting styles, and action surge. He was so hard to take down and control the DM banned the combo and multi class combos more than 2 classes.
Your assessment of fighters and paladins is dead on. They can put up serious numbers.
Congrats guys that's awesome!
Paladin lvl 5 with hx blade lvl 3, or paladin lvl 3 and her lvl 5, with the rest in sorceror is pretty much infinite smiting and bonus action smite spells.
Plus with only needing 13 strength you can fully go constitution and charisma with some dex for for better initiative.
Ya i'd argue Paladin is the real S tier, Fighters are A+ but not quite S.
Wizard is great at dealing damage, but it isn’t consistent damage due to the fact they need to use spell slots to deal good damage. I think warlock is better at dealing damage consistently than wizard, due to Eldritch blast being decent at damage with the mandatory eldritch blast+agonizing blast combo, and it being a cantrimp.
Vhuman metamagic adept + 2 level fighter dip + haste means you can do up to 8 Eldritch Blasts in one round at level 5. The quickened metamagic basically acts as another action surge. And haste doesn't restrict the number of EB beams like it does weapon attacks. So this build potentially scales better than fighter's extra attack. Of course fighters get more feats and other goodies. But a high level warlock that's built right can go toe to toe with fighters for how many attack rolls they make in a turn.
@@samuelwyatt7846 haste doesn’t grant you the ability to cast another spell, unfortunately. It gives you an extra action that can only be used on the actions listed in the spell description, and cast a spell is not one of them. Every table can choose to play it differently if they want, but RAW, haste doesn’t give you another cast of EB.
@@nousernameinputed you’re right! I’ve never played this build. I was just trying to think of how to cast as many EBs as possible in one turn. So I think you max out at 3 with action/bonus action/action surge.
Good catch
A good concentration spell only takes one slot, and can deal damage round after round. Add arcane recovery and the much higher number of spell slots the wizard gets, and I think it’s fair to say that for many groups, the wizard won’t fall behind the warlock in consistent damage too often. But in groups that favor long dungeon crawls, you’re probably right more often than not.
@@nousernameinputed A concentration spell can lose concentration(damage and various effects) or be dispelled before it has gained much value. You can also only concentrate on 1 thing at a time. You have a limited selection of prepared spells, so if you also want to bring utility and support effects(various buffs), it starts to diminish your damage spell variety.
Which is important, because a lot of enemies have various forms of resistance or saving throw proficiencies. Which means that to stay consistent in dealing damage, you need a rather broad variety of damage spells.
That form of focus and specialization automatically drops the ranking for spell casters as damage dealers. When a Wizard says they want to be a damage dealer, the party still expects them to bring Counterspell, Fly and various other, non-damaging spells.
in a strahd campaign i was a part of, one of the people who i played was was a fairy gloom stalker. He did more damage then the rest of our party combined cause he was so small + with the flight he could very easily find a dark corner somewhere to hide in and since gloom stalkers are invisible in darkness even to creatures with dark vision he would constantly get advantage on his sharpshooter attack roles + plus the extra damage from the first turn bonus damage and he was basically unstoppable.
Having finally gotten caught up to Fate of Drakkenheim, I can say with confidence that Joe rapier stabbing enemies for three damage and then questioning why he's even doing it is the most Joe story I have heard.
I usually think Artificer gets shafted a little bit in these rankings, probably due to how much work it can take to get them to be very very good at any one thing, but if you focus on it, you really can get them to be good at almost anything with a careful enough build. For example I think Artillerist can really do quite a bit more damage than many people think if you make heavy use of a spell storing item loaded with Shatter, and/or put a flamethrower turret on an allied melee range combatant to be hitting two or three enemies per firing of the turret. Then if we’re spending spell slots at all we can huck some Fireballs with Haste.
Overall I totally don’t disagree with the Dudes’ ranking, I just have been pretty obsessed with the Artificer lately.
But that’s the thing you have to build and build hard to make the artificer very good at a certain thing. Which makes it so under their criteria they just can’t rank it very high due to artificer not being automatically inclined to being a damage dealer. I do love the artificer I think it’s really cool so don’t think I’m hating on it
From what (admittedly ittle) I've seen of artificer, it seems like their whole thing is that they're kinda just not great at most things, except for the one thing you build hard into which really excels. So they simply don't fit the ranking criteria very well.
2 wizards, one casts bigby's hand, the second casts prismatic wall. The first grabs the foe and holds them in the prismatic wall and crushes them with the hand. Magical cheese grater.
I have a Gloomstalker Ranger, dip in rogue and fighter trying to add the echo knight subclass. The Ranger is an amazing character that can help multiple players on the board.
As a warlock main, I don't use hex once the wall spells come online. My personal favorite is wall of light. I call it the disco room, where I cast the wall on the ground to light up all the enemies to attempt a field wide blind, (debuffs are always an important caster mechanic)
And then use the bonus attack wall beam as a way to open up the space for my allies as well as getting that extra shot every turn. If the space is small, start the necrodancer music, I'm turning on the disco as my opening move.
Feats are an optional feature in 5e;if you had treated them as such the monk would rate much higher. I think your issue is that monks were balanced against other classes without considering feats. As a note, monks can also pick up sharpshooter and archery fighting style as feats, so can also compete as a mixed ranged/melee damage class.
the big problem with a ranged monk is that you can't use stunning strike like that
@@fabiovarra3698 I was addressing the idea of damage; I also mentioned that it would be a combo of ranged and melee, or you can just do hand xbow like everyone else to get that bonus attack with the xbow and the sharpshooter damage bonus. I very rarely use stunning strike on my monk as I try to conserve my key points for things I know are going to be effective.
@@fabiovarra3698 crossbow expert and sharp shooter, get hand crossbow as a weapon proficiency through race or multi class, make it your monk weapon, shoot, shoot, flurry kick for stunning strike. A single level of fighter for the proficiency and the archery fighting style would go a long way, drow if you aren't multi classing. Not saying its top tier but it works. If guns are a option go gunner feat at level 1 as a variant human, shoot shoot, kick. Gun Fu. I'd say Giff but their gunnery traits doesn't allow you to shoot in melee without disadvantage. The gunnery feat does.
Cleric at a B with Spirit Guardians is quite an undersell. Spirit Guardians wrecks things in most encounters far more than Bless on a Barbarian will (for instance).
but bless on a barbarian, warlock, and rogue? while boosting their saves with the other half of bless? sounds pretty good to me
Echo Knight Fighter + 3 level dip to get bear totem barbarian. At level 14 (granted that is a high level) you get 3 multi attack + 1 extra attack with Unleash Incarnation + action surge = 4 more attacks with another unleash incarnation. Then, you are raging, use reckless attack so all 8 attacks are at advantage and add extra damage to each hit. You are resistant to all damage types besides psychic as a bear totem barbarian. On top of that, if you have an adamantine breastplate you are immune to critical hits, so very little punishment opportunity from reckless attack. You are basically an unstoppable machine of insane damage capability.
My table (not me DMing) has been rolling gestalt a lot recently, one side of the gestalt can Multiclass a single "side of the gestalt" (MAYBE TWO if the story is really good) classes. I think ya'll would love doing a gestalt build series as you've done with the multiclass. I'm currently playing, side one Rune Knight fighter, Astral self Monk, side two Twilight cleric. She's a grappler with Bless, Moonbeam, and Spiritual Guardians.
I hear your sorceror points and I counter with Twin Disintegrates lol.
If only the Alc\Arty Artificer got full casting or even Warlock type progression
So much do I wish this.
I love this video. This everyone should watch your videos SO MUCH INFORMATION its not even funny! Keep it up.
Awesome material!
I'd give the druid an A personally, anyone with conjure animals, lets say using level 7 spell slot, 24 swarms of rats, 2d6 damage each (rat swarms can occupy the same space as other creatures so stack them) that last for 1 minute whilst you also blast them with blight, nothing survives
The thing is
Most things after level 11 do have resistance or straigth up immunity to nonmagical damage, which means conjure animals gets a little bit obsolete
And blight well
Doesn't work on undead and Contructs, and IS a Con Save spell which makes it a little bit meh
But oh boy how it works on lower levels
My sister played a circle of the swarm tabaxi druid before it became spores. She had swarms of smaller cats following her everywhere and her spells were using cats. Never have reanimation spells felt so horrifying as when she continued playing them and converted to the spore druid mechanics.
Very interesting thank you
I have watched this video 2 or 3 times. Love the content:)
Not sure why no love for sorcerers. Meta magic is soooo powerful. Twinned spells action economy rivals action surge, can be used multiple times per rest, and also conserves spell slots. Speaking of which, sorcerers can create spell slots using sorcery points. Subtle spell trumps other casters by bypassing counter spell. Distant spell gives you the ability to outrange just about anyone.....and the list goes on. Definitely should be a high A.
I’d argue twinned spells are 100% better than action surge because it allows you to kind of concentrate on two spells at once since most don’t have the option to target more enemies.
I would argue that you fell into a bit of a trap with the paladin and cleric. The cleric especially.
You argued that they would be better off doing something else. However, that doesn't mean that they don't deal damage excellently.
Just because they can do A or B, doesn't mean they can't be good at A.
Perhaps you see that as a build issue, but I would not view that as a negative against them as these builds aren't necessarily niche nor more difficult to achieve than alternative options for them. Even if their better option is B.
In any case I still agree with you that the fighter is the S-tier for this role.
Side note:
I would also like to emphasize that the ranger seems to be just a slightly worse version of the dex based fighter. (There was a brief discussion of your strength based martial vs the ranger rogue that sparked my thought here.) With the large caveat that they have hunters mark and and their damage per round boosts that their subclasses give them that sort of make up the difference between total attacks per round, but not allowing them to spread that damage around.
I think they fell into the trap of not wanting everything to be in A or B tier. Honestly every class in the game can be an S tier build for damage expect maybe Bard.
I also think they fell into the trap of wanting to to give more attention to non-castors. Even though Fighter and Barbarian are amazing damage dealers, I personally think Warlock and Sorcerer or even a life Cleric just with Spirit Guardians and Spiritual weapon are far better at dealing damage, and at high level they don’t need to rely on magic weapons.
Why doesn't anyone ever mention animate dead with clerics? At base level you can get 4 skeletons with 1d6+2 damage at +4 to hit. They can be issued general commands and take no additional resources or bonus actions during combat. This pairs perfectly with Spirit Guardians because it creates a larger area of half movement that they have to get through to get to your skeletons all the while taking damage. Spiritual Weapon and Toll the Dead on top of this is 4d6+8 (skellies) / 3d8 (per target SG) / 1d6+3 (SW) / 2d12 (toll the dead). These stacked layers of consistent damage really add up. Especially if you have a plate wielding Cleric that can grapple, use shove, generally outlast stuff, or are a twilight cleric that can buff up the HP of the minions.
I'm playing a Horizon Walker Ranger (a subclass that amps the damage up). We've got a Fighter, Hexblade, and Barbarian and I'm one of the top 2 damage dealers each session. I'm glad to see them give Ranger that recognition.
I play a swarmkeeper who keeps pushing enemies back into spike growth.