Reposting my comment from the original video, since I've managed to rescue it ;) I was really looking forward to your reaction to these and now I'm feeling guilty because of how hard they hit you :'D But it's understandable, it's such a speedrun of emotional damage. I don't think there's much to add on the most important scenes, really. Maybe just that the dilemma of sacrificing the few to save the many and the murky grey area between being a "hero of justice" and a detached killing machine is something of an overarching theme in Fate in general. Just something to keep in mind. It's probably worth stopping by Kerry's old man and how his way of thinking encapsulates Mages' fixation on the Root -- notice how he's not trying and testing these awful things to research a pathway to the Root, but simply to buy himself time so he can then get to the actual Root-related efforts. In a way maaaaybe (if we forget the child-trading, perhaps) he's worse than Tokiomi, who just accepts he's not gonna achieve the goal and is fine with any future Tohsaka succeeding in his stead. Regarding Kerry, Iri, Einzberns' plan and how it all aligns: it's a case of the Einzberns (grandpa Acht, the family head, to be precise) using Kerry more than the other way around. In general, the Grail War ritual is designed as an unfair game with a tilted playing field -- the core idea is for the original families to win, while the foreign contestants are just pawns used to summon more Servants. But then each of the three families individually is looking to further tilt the field in their favor. For Einzberns in the Fourth War that special trick was to hire an elite Mage-killer from the outside as their representative, to compensate for the fact they're poor at fighting. Kerry developing genuine feelings for Iri and making her become more humane is just an (unhappy) accident. As for why are they're not good at fighting -- that's because their core purpose and the one thing they excel at is creating homunculi. Iri and Illya are both created in the image of Justeaze, the former head of the family and the founder of the Holy Grail War. Justeaze herself was very powerful homunculus and her input into the ritual was providing the Lesser Grail "mechanic" -- so she became the "heart" of the Grail in the same way Irisviel is destined to. So long story short -- technically Iri is not "a homunculus pushed into the War under the Einzbern name", but literally "an Einzbern". There's a lot of paradoxes in there, since the process of creating a good vessel is hit-and-miss and there are cases of yet-nameless homunculi being thrown away as unsuitable, while the brain behind it all, Old Man Acht is an artificial being himself (but not in the same vein as Justeaze's successors). All in all, the lines between being a member of the clan, a tool for that clan and a key to the greater good of summoning the Grail is pretty blurry. On a different note, I like your reading of Kirei's intentions -- the hatred for Tokiomi and Risei for trying to push him into certain roles based on complete misconceptions and the wish to break free. I always was under the impression it's mostly his sadistic desire to bring others suffering that drives him towards those urges to kill. Like with Risei, I felt it was less "I hate him so much I'd like to kill him myself" and more "it'd feel delightful to make this man who cared for me suffer before my eyes". But maybe one doesn't rule out the other and it's a deeply ingrained kind of resentment that Kirei himself, numb to most emotions, doesn't realise? It's something fun (in a twisted way) to think about. Complete side-note: the Dead Apostles that we see here are a massive branch of the bigger Type-Moon lore in itself. This category fits all sorts of vampiric, blood-drinking, immortal-ish (or undead) creatures. The zombie-like ones we see here are the lowest of low, but there are many cases of fully conscious, intelligent Dead Apostles, some of which are the most powerful figures of the Nasuverse. Some sleep in coffins like stereotypical vampires, some fight off their impulses and pass for perfectly normal humans, and others are just superpowerful beings beyond the realm of human possibilities. So Norikata's idea theoretically wasn't impossible, but far-fetched -- it'd require either "help" from another powerful DA (plus having predispositions to become something more than a ghoul) or ages of crazy experiments on oneself. (Dead Apostles play a much bigger part in Tsukihime than Fate, but there are references and metions like this one here and there.)
Ahh thanks for the comment save! Appreciate all the extra info. Yeah it's actually depressing that we can jockey trade over who's the least worse mage dad - Tokiomi, who gave away one of his kids, or Kiri's dad, who was okay with human testing and human collateral as a means to the Root. I don't know if I can make a call 😞 Interesting re: the Einzberns and their strategy for winning the Grail, as well as the whole history with homunculus creation. It's sad (although at this point, unsurprising) that someone born into a mage family has their personal value tied in some way to how useful they are to the family's quest for legacy and power. I'd figured there might be different levels of Dead Apostles given Vorzak was one too, which made me wonder if Kiri's dad might just have been thinking about becoming one himself (or turning his kid into one), just to as you said buy more time.
@@ravenclawreacts Yeah, it is a grim contest and not just between these two, but most mage families' heads apparently. Family always comes second to magecraft, even if the interested parties don't realise that (Emiya certainly didn't seem to). As for Dead Apostles, yeah, there are certain "levels" to vampiric creatures here. Above Dead Apostles stand True Ancestors -- the "vampire royalty", "perfectly" immortal, as in: they don't need blood to sustain themselves. There's more on them in Tsukihime -- let's just they're not likely to function among humans or actively hunt them. DA are clearly inferior to them as they need to consume lives to exist (hence why "imperfect" immortality) -- and unlike True Ancestors, they're never born this way, but have to be turned by someone or, less likely, undergo some magical procedures that would make them "not alive, but not dead either". The 27 strongest among those are called Dead Apostle Ancestors -- an elite among the imperfect vampires. They can pass down their "seats" among the 27 to a chosen successor or get usurped by someone. Below them are regular, run-of-the-mill Dead Apostles like Odd Vorzak (or Borzak, depending on translation -- lowkey important, since the name returns in different series). Immortal (*terms and conditions apply), fully sentient, not big of a deal among vampires, but still dangerous to people. And then at the bottom are the failed Dead Apostles or Ghouls -- like what the islanders turned into. Not sentient, driven by thirst for blood, sometimes also used by Dead Apostles who turned them as pawns to gather life energy for them. Whether someone turns into a sentient Dead Apostle or a Ghoul depends on their predispositions -- Emiya senior clearly was considering turning himself or Kerry into a DA, but the "incident" made him realise it can go either way, probably. Had he survived, he would probably stop at perfecting his Time Alter magecraft. BTW, not sure if you remember, since it was many episodes ago -- the spell Kerry uses on himself during his fight with Kayneth in the Einzbern mansion is the same technique Norikata experimented with on the flowers, their "family magecraft". Except Kerry almost renounces his legacy by using it the opposite way his dad intended -- not to make himself age slower, but to manipulate his pace and push his own body to the limit.
I always feel bad for Norikata (Kerry's dad) a bit. It is borderline impossible for classical mage to be decent human being, but Norikata, despite obviously lack of common human morals, had decency to at least be a good parent, and genuinly loved and cared for Kiritsugu. It is even stated in Light novel version that he specifically waited for Kiritsugu so they could leave the island... yeah
Damn, even on a still? Love these examinations of this show. This was the one of the highlights of the series along with one other moment that's still to come.
![KSI - Thick Of It (feat. Trippie Redd) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/At8v_Yc044Y/mqdefault.jpg)
Reposting my comment from the original video, since I've managed to rescue it ;)
I was really looking forward to your reaction to these and now I'm feeling guilty because of how hard they hit you :'D But it's understandable, it's such a speedrun of emotional damage.
I don't think there's much to add on the most important scenes, really. Maybe just that the dilemma of sacrificing the few to save the many and the murky grey area between being a "hero of justice" and a detached killing machine is something of an overarching theme in Fate in general. Just something to keep in mind.
It's probably worth stopping by Kerry's old man and how his way of thinking encapsulates Mages' fixation on the Root -- notice how he's not trying and testing these awful things to research a pathway to the Root, but simply to buy himself time so he can then get to the actual Root-related efforts. In a way maaaaybe (if we forget the child-trading, perhaps) he's worse than Tokiomi, who just accepts he's not gonna achieve the goal and is fine with any future Tohsaka succeeding in his stead.
Regarding Kerry, Iri, Einzberns' plan and how it all aligns: it's a case of the Einzberns (grandpa Acht, the family head, to be precise) using Kerry more than the other way around. In general, the Grail War ritual is designed as an unfair game with a tilted playing field -- the core idea is for the original families to win, while the foreign contestants are just pawns used to summon more Servants. But then each of the three families individually is looking to further tilt the field in their favor. For Einzberns in the Fourth War that special trick was to hire an elite Mage-killer from the outside as their representative, to compensate for the fact they're poor at fighting. Kerry developing genuine feelings for Iri and making her become more humane is just an (unhappy) accident.
As for why are they're not good at fighting -- that's because their core purpose and the one thing they excel at is creating homunculi. Iri and Illya are both created in the image of Justeaze, the former head of the family and the founder of the Holy Grail War. Justeaze herself was very powerful homunculus and her input into the ritual was providing the Lesser Grail "mechanic" -- so she became the "heart" of the Grail in the same way Irisviel is destined to.
So long story short -- technically Iri is not "a homunculus pushed into the War under the Einzbern name", but literally "an Einzbern". There's a lot of paradoxes in there, since the process of creating a good vessel is hit-and-miss and there are cases of yet-nameless homunculi being thrown away as unsuitable, while the brain behind it all, Old Man Acht is an artificial being himself (but not in the same vein as Justeaze's successors). All in all, the lines between being a member of the clan, a tool for that clan and a key to the greater good of summoning the Grail is pretty blurry.
On a different note, I like your reading of Kirei's intentions -- the hatred for Tokiomi and Risei for trying to push him into certain roles based on complete misconceptions and the wish to break free. I always was under the impression it's mostly his sadistic desire to bring others suffering that drives him towards those urges to kill. Like with Risei, I felt it was less "I hate him so much I'd like to kill him myself" and more "it'd feel delightful to make this man who cared for me suffer before my eyes". But maybe one doesn't rule out the other and it's a deeply ingrained kind of resentment that Kirei himself, numb to most emotions, doesn't realise? It's something fun (in a twisted way) to think about.
Complete side-note: the Dead Apostles that we see here are a massive branch of the bigger Type-Moon lore in itself. This category fits all sorts of vampiric, blood-drinking, immortal-ish (or undead) creatures. The zombie-like ones we see here are the lowest of low, but there are many cases of fully conscious, intelligent Dead Apostles, some of which are the most powerful figures of the Nasuverse. Some sleep in coffins like stereotypical vampires, some fight off their impulses and pass for perfectly normal humans, and others are just superpowerful beings beyond the realm of human possibilities. So Norikata's idea theoretically wasn't impossible, but far-fetched -- it'd require either "help" from another powerful DA (plus having predispositions to become something more than a ghoul) or ages of crazy experiments on oneself. (Dead Apostles play a much bigger part in Tsukihime than Fate, but there are references and metions like this one here and there.)
Ahh thanks for the comment save! Appreciate all the extra info.
Yeah it's actually depressing that we can jockey trade over who's the least worse mage dad - Tokiomi, who gave away one of his kids, or Kiri's dad, who was okay with human testing and human collateral as a means to the Root. I don't know if I can make a call 😞
Interesting re: the Einzberns and their strategy for winning the Grail, as well as the whole history with homunculus creation. It's sad (although at this point, unsurprising) that someone born into a mage family has their personal value tied in some way to how useful they are to the family's quest for legacy and power.
I'd figured there might be different levels of Dead Apostles given Vorzak was one too, which made me wonder if Kiri's dad might just have been thinking about becoming one himself (or turning his kid into one), just to as you said buy more time.
@@ravenclawreacts Yeah, it is a grim contest and not just between these two, but most mage families' heads apparently. Family always comes second to magecraft, even if the interested parties don't realise that (Emiya certainly didn't seem to).
As for Dead Apostles, yeah, there are certain "levels" to vampiric creatures here. Above Dead Apostles stand True Ancestors -- the "vampire royalty", "perfectly" immortal, as in: they don't need blood to sustain themselves. There's more on them in Tsukihime -- let's just they're not likely to function among humans or actively hunt them. DA are clearly inferior to them as they need to consume lives to exist (hence why "imperfect" immortality) -- and unlike True Ancestors, they're never born this way, but have to be turned by someone or, less likely, undergo some magical procedures that would make them "not alive, but not dead either".
The 27 strongest among those are called Dead Apostle Ancestors -- an elite among the imperfect vampires. They can pass down their "seats" among the 27 to a chosen successor or get usurped by someone. Below them are regular, run-of-the-mill Dead Apostles like Odd Vorzak (or Borzak, depending on translation -- lowkey important, since the name returns in different series). Immortal (*terms and conditions apply), fully sentient, not big of a deal among vampires, but still dangerous to people. And then at the bottom are the failed Dead Apostles or Ghouls -- like what the islanders turned into. Not sentient, driven by thirst for blood, sometimes also used by Dead Apostles who turned them as pawns to gather life energy for them.
Whether someone turns into a sentient Dead Apostle or a Ghoul depends on their predispositions -- Emiya senior clearly was considering turning himself or Kerry into a DA, but the "incident" made him realise it can go either way, probably. Had he survived, he would probably stop at perfecting his Time Alter magecraft.
BTW, not sure if you remember, since it was many episodes ago -- the spell Kerry uses on himself during his fight with Kayneth in the Einzbern mansion is the same technique Norikata experimented with on the flowers, their "family magecraft". Except Kerry almost renounces his legacy by using it the opposite way his dad intended -- not to make himself age slower, but to manipulate his pace and push his own body to the limit.
I always feel bad for Norikata (Kerry's dad) a bit. It is borderline impossible for classical mage to be decent human being, but Norikata, despite obviously lack of common human morals, had decency to at least be a good parent, and genuinly loved and cared for Kiritsugu. It is even stated in Light novel version that he specifically waited for Kiritsugu so they could leave the island... yeah
Damn, even on a still? Love these examinations of this show. This was the one of the highlights of the series along with one other moment that's still to come.
Its a shame the other one got copystruck 😔
How do you remember anything watching a show over the course of 2-3 years?
Re-watches, and analysing it as a text helps memory retention!