Saber is not white as snow. She is portrayed as very idealistic and chivalrous here, as you mentioned. She's quite ruthless when she sees it as the right choice. She will kill people who did nothing wrong of their death to help her nation. Saber and Kiritsugu are very similar in that regard. She ruled for 20 years as a king, after all, so moments like this are out of character for her.
I think Christine meant it as in her ideology is pure as snow. Like she's not going to back down from it. Sure, it allows her to kill in the name of the cause, but the idea behind it is too black and white. -Kyle
@@TheGenreVerse I agree with you about how the scene is portrayed as only black and white. My point is that Saber knows the grey area, but her portrayal as an idealist in order to show extremes with Kiritsugu is kind of jarring.
Blaming Kiritsugu or Artoria is immature. Simply because with the development of the human mind, the means to achieve something also develop. For example, ways to achieve war. The more technology develops, the more the human soul regresses. In the era of knights, morality was above all. By the time of Kiritsugu's life, war had evolved from a victory of pure ideals into a mere tool for achieving political goals. Not every war is like this, but it would be naive to deny it.
I'm pretty sure I discussed how there are Just Wars and that thinking there isn't is immature. I also pointed out there are pointless wars, including one I fought in. No one knows the awfulness of war better than the Soldiers that fight them. I despise my country's war in Iraq but understood Afghanistan. However, we stayed too long in Afghanistan and fought it stupidly. To think that there can't be a just war today is as naive as thinking all wars are just. Both Kiritsugu and Saber are dealing with half-baked ideology.
@@TheGenreVerse, the fact that you are one of the people who took part in the war adds weight to your opinion. It's good when at such moments you really have something to back up your words. In this I express my respect to you.
Tehnologies has nothing to do with soul regression.......it's actually the opposite.The more tehnology is developed the more devastating in terms of scale they become and more people are involved in it becuase of that!Before war was done by professional's who were taught how to fight and be discipline since the day they were born and those we call knights.But when casualty is doing the war the honor is thrown away out the window.But don't get it wrong the war's was also done for resourser's and political need's of certain people back then as well if we remember why Mordred turned england knight's against Arturia.
Saber's knights have done things not too far off from what Kiritsugu does and she shouldered their sins. Some of her knights were shady AF, but she always gave benefit of the doubt. What happened at the end of Camelot makes the 4th Holy Grail War look like Tuesday. It's just that Saber's rule didn't end up the way she liked and chivalry is all she has left to stand on. Saber and Kiritsugu are more similar than they want to admit; just a different stage in their life which is why they can't stand each other. At the end of the Holy Grail War, Kiritsugu comes to understand Saber whether he knows it or not.
Personally i have to agree with kerry on this one, i don't believe in just wars, there are wars which are more honorable than others but a perfectly just right war, is something i don't believe in
Firstly, thank you for both of your service!! Secondly, you guys are both very funny and intellectual, I enjoy hearing you guys talking about your philosophy through all of your experience in the military, especially this episode as Kiritsugu express his view on warfare, human nature and their illusion. Please keep up the good work!
I can't fault Kiritsugu for being so jaded but he seriously never thought this through. How, HOW is the grail going to end all bloodshed? Conflicts will arise as long as there are differing human interests. To end all future bloodshed would require taking away free will.
That's why I asked if he were gonna Thanos everyone. Like, Endgame Thanos where he decided to reset the whole universe... His outlook is completely flawed, but at least he acknowledges humans being trash at the core. What makes us special is the ability to ignore the lazy, selfish, and animatic voice inside and choose to work together, sacrifice for others, and move forward towards a better tomorrow. Everytime you choose someone or something else over yourself, you're bucking Human Nature, and that's pretty cool. -Kyle
Ultimately, changing human nature; the original purpose of the grail was to enact the third true magic across the entire globe, doing away with death and sadness entirely. Kiritsugu planned on wishing for literally that.
That's why the holy grail was needed in the first place. Remember that the grail is supposed to be OMNIPOTENT. We learn later that it doesn't work this way (well, fate/zero IS a prequel). But this is an universe where MAGIC exists. Therefore, if something is supposed to be OMNIPOTENT, it means omnipotent. That's the main problem here. At this point in the story, the grail is supposed to be omnipotent for everyone involved. The fact that to make someone happy you have to cause problem for someone else has been discussed in the fate serie as well; and the grail was specifically supposed to be the answer to solve this problem.
Saber probably didn't lied about that unhorable battle would dull her sword. First sword of king Arthur - sword in the stone, was lost because he acted unhonorably in battle against a knight, later Lady of the Lake gave him Excalibur. Saber is a king of knights, her power lies in acting knighty. I think even Lancer hismef was affected by her, he was completely on her wave of chivalry. And to be fair - he is in big disadvantage and probably would be killed, at least one fair battle isn't going to destroy the world. Kiritsugu would do overkill just for the sake of success no matter how everyone feels about that.
In Fate, Caliburn broke because it was primarily decorative, not because of anything to do with honour. And the whole 'king of knights' thing is just a title, her power doesn't come from post-mortem alteration based on her legend or anything bestowed upon her conditionally, she's significantly weaker here than she was in life and Excalibur is a 12,000 year old planetary defense system. In some versions the sword has restrictions on its use, but those restrict its power as a fortress-vaporizing beam of death, not as a sword.
@@iusethisnameformygoogleacc1013 I think Caliburn is really broke because of she attacking her opponent from the back in the fight with King Pellinore? But there are many version of Arthur story, at least in the Type-Moon's version, and it is more ideal that Caliburn break because of dishonorable act, else what is the value of acting knightly, why people should act morally, moral is merely for the weak majority? That would be not very Fate Plus Lancer does gave up one of his spear for her, so it is fair to not using her thumb i guess, it is just resume match of the first battle of them If she use it she can't fight without hesitating
@@TheGenreVerse Not really? There are a bunch of ways on the table when you consider that making literally everyone happy and immortal was the intent of a majority of the people that built the grail, at least one of whom definitely should have known what was and wasn't possible for it. That's ignoring the whole 'does free will exist' thing because while the idea that it does IRL is basically indefensible, that doesn't really matter in fiction. Most of the things responsible for humanity being shitty to each other don't really have to involve free will, and saying that getting rid of them takes away free will is like saying that having walls that prevent me from punching the president takes away mine.
@@iusethisnameformygoogleacc1013 Completely disagree. In order to make everyone happy, you would have to allow people with deviant behaviors and dark tendencies to be happy and guess what makes them happy? In order to grant immortality you would have to stop reproduction as there wouldn't be enough land or resources. Removing human greed removes human progress as wanting more, faster, and easier has driven most inventions and innovations. The free will to punch someone exists regardless of walls, but if I remove the part of your brain that drives that feeling, then you no longer have free will. The function of it has been removed. Lobotomies removed free will.
The thing about Saber is that Zero is not her story. Fate/Stay Night and the Garden of Avalon go into her backstory more. She is absolutely not "white as snow". She more than anyone knows what it means to sacrifice for the sake of victory. Zero doesn't because it was written under the assumption that people have read FSN before it. Something I think the anime should've done better is shown how Artoria was outright going to win this fight, even with one hand. The narration in the novel made it clear. Kiritsugu's cruelty is just unnecessary.
You deleted your other comment! Here was my response: Kayneth was a POS and completely unhinged himself. He murdered a clergyman! A corrupt one, but still... He got what was coming to him, and sure... we could have watched him beg for relief a bit more... 😈😈😈
@@TheGenreVerse I deleted it cuz it was rather rude. Not everyone reacts to gruesome things the same way. Also, lore stuff, but don't worry about the Church too much in this universe. Risei was a bastard in his own right.
Don't sweat it. I figured you may have had some actual shock at our humor or were shocked to find someone as dark as yourself. Kudos for the self moderation though, even if not needed in this case! The world would be better if we all did that more. -Kyle
@@TheGenreVerse Interesting thing about Keyneth's decline is that he too was an idealogue about the honor of mages, and had been disgusted by Kiritsugu using commoner technology like guns in this war of magic. Yet, he ends up disgracing himself resorting to using a gun to kill the priest. Though to be fair, the priest had also been scheming with Tokiomi and Kirei and not neutral like he was supposed to be. In the Fate universe, the Church is a massive organization of equal stature to the magi with their own agendas.
Thank you for sharing your opinion. I think a teacher should inspire students, not berate them for their blood/DNA. Also, loving someone through betrayal is not necessarily the sign of a strong love. That woman tortured him and stole from him (in a way) and loving through that makes you appear weak. Just my take on it. Thank you so much for watching! Thank you for talking with us!
I think Kirisugui knew his ideology is unobtainable , that’s why he needs a miracle (the Grail) to make it happen.
Diarmuid cursing the Grail really hits hard for those who have watched the rest of Fate
Saber is not white as snow. She is portrayed as very idealistic and chivalrous here, as you mentioned. She's quite ruthless when she sees it as the right choice. She will kill people who did nothing wrong of their death to help her nation. Saber and Kiritsugu are very similar in that regard. She ruled for 20 years as a king, after all, so moments like this are out of character for her.
I think Christine meant it as in her ideology is pure as snow. Like she's not going to back down from it. Sure, it allows her to kill in the name of the cause, but the idea behind it is too black and white. -Kyle
@@TheGenreVerse I agree with you about how the scene is portrayed as only black and white. My point is that Saber knows the grey area, but her portrayal as an idealist in order to show extremes with Kiritsugu is kind of jarring.
@@TheGenreVerse It's not black and white at all. She's way too complex for Zero alone to show you who she is.
Blaming Kiritsugu or Artoria is immature. Simply because with the development of the human mind, the means to achieve something also develop. For example, ways to achieve war. The more technology develops, the more the human soul regresses. In the era of knights, morality was above all. By the time of Kiritsugu's life, war had evolved from a victory of pure ideals into a mere tool for achieving political goals. Not every war is like this, but it would be naive to deny it.
I'm pretty sure I discussed how there are Just Wars and that thinking there isn't is immature. I also pointed out there are pointless wars, including one I fought in.
No one knows the awfulness of war better than the Soldiers that fight them. I despise my country's war in Iraq but understood Afghanistan. However, we stayed too long in Afghanistan and fought it stupidly.
To think that there can't be a just war today is as naive as thinking all wars are just.
Both Kiritsugu and Saber are dealing with half-baked ideology.
@@TheGenreVerse, the fact that you are one of the people who took part in the war adds weight to your opinion. It's good when at such moments you really have something to back up your words. In this I express my respect to you.
Tehnologies has nothing to do with soul regression.......it's actually the opposite.The more tehnology is developed the more devastating in terms of scale they become and more people are involved in it becuase of that!Before war was done by professional's who were taught how to fight and be discipline since the day they were born and those we call knights.But when casualty is doing the war the honor is thrown away out the window.But don't get it wrong the war's was also done for resourser's and political need's of certain people back then as well if we remember why Mordred turned england knight's against Arturia.
Saber's knights have done things not too far off from what Kiritsugu does and she shouldered their sins. Some of her knights were shady AF, but she always gave benefit of the doubt. What happened at the end of Camelot makes the 4th Holy Grail War look like Tuesday. It's just that Saber's rule didn't end up the way she liked and chivalry is all she has left to stand on. Saber and Kiritsugu are more similar than they want to admit; just a different stage in their life which is why they can't stand each other. At the end of the Holy Grail War, Kiritsugu comes to understand Saber whether he knows it or not.
Personally i have to agree with kerry on this one, i don't believe in just wars, there are wars which are more honorable than others but a perfectly just right war, is something i don't believe in
Diarmuid: pierces his heart, screams and cries how much he hates them all
Cuchulainn: You thought killing me would be enough to kill me?!
16:39 As a Ukrainian i can't agree more
Hoping for the best in Ukraine!
@@TheGenreVerse Thank, we Ukrainians are incredibly grateful to the United States for helping our country
You shouldn't apologize so much when pausing. I for one like hearing valid and sound arguments.
6:51 Fury and jealousy... even one of those can blind men from reasoning, but when they're combined? Super effective!
Firstly, thank you for both of your service!! Secondly, you guys are both very funny and intellectual, I enjoy hearing you guys talking about your philosophy through all of your experience in the military, especially this episode as Kiritsugu express his view on warfare, human nature and their illusion. Please keep up the good work!
Thank you so much for the support and the amazingly kind words!
One of the best episodes, and your commentary on leadership and the price of honor was, I expected, well worth listening to...
Thanks for watching and for the compliment!
I can't fault Kiritsugu for being so jaded but he seriously never thought this through. How, HOW is the grail going to end all bloodshed? Conflicts will arise as long as there are differing human interests. To end all future bloodshed would require taking away free will.
That's why I asked if he were gonna Thanos everyone. Like, Endgame Thanos where he decided to reset the whole universe... His outlook is completely flawed, but at least he acknowledges humans being trash at the core.
What makes us special is the ability to ignore the lazy, selfish, and animatic voice inside and choose to work together, sacrifice for others, and move forward towards a better tomorrow.
Everytime you choose someone or something else over yourself, you're bucking Human Nature, and that's pretty cool. -Kyle
That's why he states he needs a miracle because perhaps in some reality, this is possible. The omnipotent wish granting device the holy grail.
Ultimately, changing human nature; the original purpose of the grail was to enact the third true magic across the entire globe, doing away with death and sadness entirely. Kiritsugu planned on wishing for literally that.
That's why the holy grail was needed in the first place. Remember that the grail is supposed to be OMNIPOTENT.
We learn later that it doesn't work this way (well, fate/zero IS a prequel). But this is an universe where MAGIC exists. Therefore, if something is supposed to be OMNIPOTENT, it means omnipotent. That's the main problem here. At this point in the story, the grail is supposed to be omnipotent for everyone involved.
The fact that to make someone happy you have to cause problem for someone else has been discussed in the fate serie as well; and the grail was specifically supposed to be the answer to solve this problem.
I can't wait for your reaction to the following 3 episodes. Episodes 18 and 19 really being my favorite ones from the series. Keep up the good work
Saber probably didn't lied about that unhorable battle would dull her sword. First sword of king Arthur - sword in the stone, was lost because he acted unhonorably in battle against a knight, later Lady of the Lake gave him Excalibur. Saber is a king of knights, her power lies in acting knighty. I think even Lancer hismef was affected by her, he was completely on her wave of chivalry. And to be fair - he is in big disadvantage and probably would be killed, at least one fair battle isn't going to destroy the world. Kiritsugu would do overkill just for the sake of success no matter how everyone feels about that.
In Fate, Caliburn broke because it was primarily decorative, not because of anything to do with honour. And the whole 'king of knights' thing is just a title, her power doesn't come from post-mortem alteration based on her legend or anything bestowed upon her conditionally, she's significantly weaker here than she was in life and Excalibur is a 12,000 year old planetary defense system. In some versions the sword has restrictions on its use, but those restrict its power as a fortress-vaporizing beam of death, not as a sword.
@@iusethisnameformygoogleacc1013 I think Caliburn is really broke because of she attacking her opponent from the back in the fight with King Pellinore?
But there are many version of Arthur story, at least in the Type-Moon's version, and it is more ideal that Caliburn break because of dishonorable act, else what is the value of acting knightly, why people should act morally, moral is merely for the weak majority? That would be not very Fate
Plus Lancer does gave up one of his spear for her, so it is fair to not using her thumb i guess, it is just resume match of the first battle of them
If she use it she can't fight without hesitating
20:26 "You can't change human nature"
I think his wish at this point is to literally change human nature 😅
Or end all wars ever 🤔
Only way is to remove what makes us human... Free Will
@@TheGenreVerse Free will is debatable 🙂
I mean literally, philosophers and physicists aren't sure. It is preferable to believe that we do though.
@@TheGenreVerse Not really? There are a bunch of ways on the table when you consider that making literally everyone happy and immortal was the intent of a majority of the people that built the grail, at least one of whom definitely should have known what was and wasn't possible for it. That's ignoring the whole 'does free will exist' thing because while the idea that it does IRL is basically indefensible, that doesn't really matter in fiction. Most of the things responsible for humanity being shitty to each other don't really have to involve free will, and saying that getting rid of them takes away free will is like saying that having walls that prevent me from punching the president takes away mine.
@@iusethisnameformygoogleacc1013 Completely disagree. In order to make everyone happy, you would have to allow people with deviant behaviors and dark tendencies to be happy and guess what makes them happy? In order to grant immortality you would have to stop reproduction as there wouldn't be enough land or resources. Removing human greed removes human progress as wanting more, faster, and easier has driven most inventions and innovations. The free will to punch someone exists regardless of walls, but if I remove the part of your brain that drives that feeling, then you no longer have free will. The function of it has been removed. Lobotomies removed free will.
One of my favorite episodes
Although last one was a huge battle, this really feels like a change of pace to me
The thing about Saber is that Zero is not her story. Fate/Stay Night and the Garden of Avalon go into her backstory more. She is absolutely not "white as snow". She more than anyone knows what it means to sacrifice for the sake of victory.
Zero doesn't because it was written under the assumption that people have read FSN before it. Something I think the anime should've done better is shown how Artoria was outright going to win this fight, even with one hand. The narration in the novel made it clear. Kiritsugu's cruelty is just unnecessary.
You deleted your other comment! Here was my response:
Kayneth was a POS and completely unhinged himself. He murdered a clergyman! A corrupt one, but still... He got what was coming to him, and sure... we could have watched him beg for relief a bit more... 😈😈😈
@@TheGenreVerse I deleted it cuz it was rather rude. Not everyone reacts to gruesome things the same way.
Also, lore stuff, but don't worry about the Church too much in this universe. Risei was a bastard in his own right.
Don't sweat it. I figured you may have had some actual shock at our humor or were shocked to find someone as dark as yourself.
Kudos for the self moderation though, even if not needed in this case! The world would be better if we all did that more. -Kyle
@@TheGenreVerse Interesting thing about Keyneth's decline is that he too was an idealogue about the honor of mages, and had been disgusted by Kiritsugu using commoner technology like guns in this war of magic. Yet, he ends up disgracing himself resorting to using a gun to kill the priest.
Though to be fair, the priest had also been scheming with Tokiomi and Kirei and not neutral like he was supposed to be. In the Fate universe, the Church is a massive organization of equal stature to the magi with their own agendas.
日本のfateファンですが、最期まで割とケイネスは良い人でした。1話でも、本当に悪い教師だったら、ウェイバーの論文なんかタイトルだけ読んで捨てていた。しかし彼は最後まで読んだ上で意見をした。ソラウのこともきちんと愛している。裏切られようとも。魔術師にしてはかなり人間性がある人だ。
Thank you for sharing your opinion. I think a teacher should inspire students, not berate them for their blood/DNA. Also, loving someone through betrayal is not necessarily the sign of a strong love. That woman tortured him and stole from him (in a way) and loving through that makes you appear weak. Just my take on it. Thank you so much for watching! Thank you for talking with us!