Why doesn't Hamburg, Germany have trams? |

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  • Опубликовано: 5 ноя 2024

Комментарии • 93

  • @TFTSB
    @TFTSB  2 дня назад +19

    What if the real #Tramburg was the friends we made along the way?

  • @SimonS44
    @SimonS44 День назад +66

    Hamburger Hochbahn actually started tendering feasibility studies for a Stadtbahn system like four weeks ago 👀

    • @MrMakabar
      @MrMakabar День назад +4

      Just worried they built a tram as an extension for the U4 towards Harburg. Really that part of town needs both systems.

  • @bobi7152
    @bobi7152 День назад +40

    Surprising how Munich didn't loose its trams, considering the car-centric nature of the city and its economy.

    • @acmenipponair
      @acmenipponair День назад +13

      Munich had the luck, that their political ideas always come 20 years later than in the rest of Germany. So the crazyness of getting rid of the tram lines there only came up in the 1980s. And then the greens were already powerful and stopped it in the Stadtrat. Until the 1990s the Tram network then was mostly neglegted, until the SPD-Greens coalitions decided that it's not logical to pay billions for new ubahn lines in the center, when you already have the exact route covered by tram lines.

    • @CharlsonS
      @CharlsonS День назад +6

      @@acmenipponair that's incorrect. Tramway closures also started in Munich by the 1960s, it was just a much slower process as the city focused more on replacing the tram by new U-Bahn lines over the years rather than closing it for the sake of closing like Hamburg did. It was the realization in the 1990s that there are lots of routes where trams still make sense, especially those lines that were not replaced by any U-Bahn line whatsoever. As for the greens... it was not a thing of logic that they blocked U-Bahn proposals, they were just docmatically anti U-Bahn. Thankfully the U-Bahn plans are back on track after basically nothing happened for years.

    • @ft4709
      @ft4709 День назад +4

      Car-centrism really is somewhat of a national phenomenon. Except for the manufacturing plants I feel like Hamburg might actually be more car-centric than Munich, maybe even thanks to the lack of trams. However, one has to keep in mind that by the time Munich opened their first U-Bahn line, Hamburg's network was almost identical to what we have today, except for U4 and the northernmost part of U1 towards Norderstedt. Considering the fact that they'd basically grown the network by more than 50% in less than a decade, I can totally see why, back in the day, nobody was willing to spend money on upgrading the trams. Totally different story in Munich: They were still considering a Stadtbahn akin to Frankfurt until 1964 and thus even purchased new tram rolling stock. The uncertainty about what kind of mass transit system it was going to be essentially lead to a tram modernization effort which helped keeping them alive during the transition to U-Bahn, and political change secured their long-term survival. Hamburgs trams however were horribly outdated by the 1960s with no immediate capacity advantage over a regular bus (they still operated with trolley poles until 1978!) and thus, according to the Zeitgeist, getting rid of them before a proper replacement was constructed still seemed like the more reasonable decision. The alternative would have required major investments in rolling stock and infrastructure, but without a long-term strategy nobody was willing to pay for this. Obviously, with the benefit of hindsight, it would have been nice had they kept the trams around. But I think it's less local car culture/politics and more so the existence of a functioning pre-war U-Bahn system that led to the tram's demise. Look no further than Berlin.

  • @SchwarzeSonne130
    @SchwarzeSonne130 День назад +16

    Many German Cities, especially smaller ones, had trams
    There are still some ideas of bringing them back, sadly the one in Regensburg failed.

    • @TFTSB
      @TFTSB  День назад +2

      Sometimes I think aboit how even Stade had an experiment with a Stadtbahn. But that's a video for another time ;)

    • @SchwarzeSonne130
      @SchwarzeSonne130 День назад +6

      @@TFTSB Yeah, public transport was way more back then but then the car wave happened. Nowadays, cars are so inefficient but people still have the image of old rusty trams and old rusty Schienenbusse when they think about trains and trams.

  • @namenamename390
    @namenamename390 День назад +16

    0:25 that's not necessarily true. In Karlsruhe for example, it is, trams switch from their own network to the mainline railway network. But Stuttgart's Stadtbahn for example only ever runs on its own tracks, and even if they're fully grade separated, they are officially still tram tracks, not rail lines. The difference is that Stuttgart always runs according to the BOStrab, the rules for trams, whereas Karlsruhe switches from BOStrab rules to EBO rules for mainline railways.
    What I'm saying is, "Stadtbahn" is a loosely defined term that means something slightly different in basically every German city that has one. But the difference between Straßenbahn and Stadtbahn is not that Stadtbahnen run on "standard rail lines", as said in the video. The most important difference is the amount of separation from other traffic, which mostly is achieved without switching to mainline rail operation.
    And just to name another important difference, trams mostly have low floors these days to allow for boarding from the sidewalk, whereas Stadtbahn systems are mostly high floor for a more metro like boarding process, with the exception of like half of Düsseldorf's system, which has low floor Stadtbahn trains and it's really weird.
    Sorry for this nitpick on a thing that isn't even that important for the point of the video, but I couldn't stop myself.

    • @TFTSB
      @TFTSB  День назад +5

      No no, a well warranted nitpick on a point I perhaps oversimplified too much here

  • @jolotschka
    @jolotschka День назад +9

    Hamburg dachte in den Siebzigern Gelenkbusse wären der letzte Schrei und hat sich von allen Straßenbahnlinien getrennt.

  • @AxtInsBeinLP
    @AxtInsBeinLP День назад +11

    Dont forget before the busbeschleunigungsprogramm the buses were faster than afterwards

    • @TFTSB
      @TFTSB  День назад +3

      Oh good point! I also wish I mentioned the long ass XXL buses the used to run near Dammtor

    • @ernieee42
      @ernieee42 День назад +1

      @@TFTSB Always wondered, what would happen, if some driver enters a dead end street or something. I don't think you can reverse them.

    • @TheKnaeckebrot
      @TheKnaeckebrot 12 часов назад +1

      I was staying in Hamburg for ~6 months, with a daily commute from Rahlstedt - Wandsbek Markt (nearest U-Bahn) ... with my bike driving along the road I'd regularly overtake several(!) buses of the same line, always staying still in the rush hour :D

  • @brimbles4999
    @brimbles4999 20 часов назад +2

    Hamburg does have a really nice bus system from the time i visited, but i feel what people don't realise when they say "we don't need trams, we already have a good bus network" is they forget that ppl who are not able-bodied EXIST, sure I can use buses quick and easy but like do people forget when their bus has to wait at a stop for way too long because the driver has to help someone in a wheelchair on? or a mum getting a pram with their kids on? when you see a tram network with level boarding, and how quick EVERYONE can hop on and off with ease you really cannot go back (the tram network in london, croydon, despite its issues, is HIGHLY used by disabled people and parents in the local area, i see far more on the trams than i see on even the busiest bus routes)

    • @TFTSB
      @TFTSB  19 часов назад +1

      This! Absolutely this!

  • @tomo-tawa-linja
    @tomo-tawa-linja 2 дня назад +24

    ripping out trams for buses and attempting to recover the lost capacity with "BRT" projects... HMMMMMM I've seen this movie before...
    also yes those pink glowing cubes are amazing, it's giving crimson forest

    • @TFTSB
      @TFTSB  2 дня назад +2

      It's a tale as old as time, and as difficult as, uh, replacing BRT with high capacity trams lol

    • @DiamondKingStudios
      @DiamondKingStudios День назад

      MARTA’s barely trying to expand its transportation network and there are proposals to put in BRT lines in major Atlanta corridors.
      I expect it to turn out like MBTA’s Silver Line (whole story about that…)

    • @jonistan9268
      @jonistan9268 День назад

      At least turning a BRT line into a tram line looks easier than building a tram where no dedicated transit infrastructure is available, because the space you're going to use is already being used for transit, so you don't have to fight carbrains.

    • @qjtvaddict
      @qjtvaddict 23 часа назад

      Automated metros it is

    • @qjtvaddict
      @qjtvaddict 23 часа назад +1

      @@DiamondKingStudiosnothing will be as bad as Boston silver line

  • @nick3805
    @nick3805 14 часов назад +1

    Funfact: Despite the Renaissance of the Tram having led to a rapid Expansion of Tram Networks and no Shutting down of Trams anymore, my Home City Saarbrücken is actually the only City in Germany to have built a new Tram from Scratch that isn't an Expansion of an already existing Network.

  • @acmenipponair
    @acmenipponair День назад +7

    Not only: "Why do you build a complete section of the Ubahn with no connection to the Elbphilharmonie..." A Stop at Baumwall would have brought a good connection to the U3 - instead of having to walk through a long tunnel in Jungfernstieg and then using STAIRS to get to the station... God forbit that in Hamburg people with disabilities get a good transit, they might start to use the ÖPNV...

    • @TFTSB
      @TFTSB  День назад +4

      The U4 is a full story of missed potential. At least the stations are gorgeous!

  • @pandahugs2271
    @pandahugs2271 День назад +4

    love this video. visited hamburg in 2017 but yea makes sense for hamburg to have a tram.

    • @TFTSB
      @TFTSB  День назад +1

      Thank you so much!

  • @mats7492
    @mats7492 День назад +4

    Stadtbahn is the best of both worlds..
    Subway or tram depending on need and location!Love the systemwe have here in Hannover.
    Only thing missing is a Ringbahn!

    • @TFTSB
      @TFTSB  День назад +1

      I love the Hannover Stadtbahn! Your trains always look so cool to me!

    • @mats7492
      @mats7492 День назад

      @@TFTSB There will be new ones arriving next year
      ruclips.net/video/f2PfFyyJbbI/видео.html&ab_channel=%C3%9CSTRAHannoverscheVerkehrsbetriebeAktiengesellschaft

  • @InsertGreatChannelName
    @InsertGreatChannelName День назад +2

    I love your channel great job

    • @TFTSB
      @TFTSB  День назад

      Thank you tons!

  • @jonistan9268
    @jonistan9268 День назад +2

    I've used bus line 5 quite a bit on my last visits to Hamburg. As far as I can tell, turning this into a tram line between Dammtor and Niendorf Markt wouldn't be that complicated. This entire setion is a BRT line on its own lanes already with proper platforms, some even way too long for buses as far as I could tell. The entire thing basically looks like a good tramline without trams.
    Then the buses just continue on a pretty normal road all the way to Burgwedel, you can either turn this into a local bus route (most people change at Niendorf Markt anyway, so not having a through service there wouldn't be a disaster) or you could make a really bold move and just continue it along where the bus runs now. The main issue I see with this is that going to Niendorf Markt and back to the main stroad is a bit more difficult and annoying with a tram than with a bus. I wonder how this was done back when the tram (line 2 according to the map in the video) was still running. After all, it followed this exact route, terminating somewhere in the centre of Schnelsen, and it did serve Niendorf Marktplatz somehow.

    • @bojstojsa7574
      @bojstojsa7574 20 часов назад

      With the U5, there will be rapid transit on most of this corridor (till Behrmannsplatz) so a tram would not be needed. But there could be a tram from Schnelsen via Niendorf Markt to Behrmannplatz as a feeder for the U5.

  • @hammi9573
    @hammi9573 День назад +6

    I can drive the old Hamburg Trams 👉👈

    • @TFTSB
      @TFTSB  День назад +2

      Oh hi 🥺👉👈

  • @Henthrad
    @Henthrad 14 часов назад +1

    Can't wait for a video on the Kiel Stadtbahn project ✨

    • @TFTSB
      @TFTSB  13 часов назад

      I can't wait to make it!

  • @BrunoTorres1
    @BrunoTorres1 2 дня назад +7

    I totally see all your points and would Hamburg not be in Germany but a more reasonable (at least regarding transit) country like France or Spain, Hamburg would probably get the U5 faster + an U6 + some interconnecting Trams like Lyon or Marseille do. (The Hochbahn-network is to be fair already way bigger than the two slightly smaller french towns I mentioned) But regarding that it is in Germany where (apart from Munich or Berlin) it is always tram OR metro and this toxic discussion has been held for decades I would try to lobby for 1990es Madrid style Metro Plans or plans like Grand Paris Express to efficiently expand the S- and U-Bahn and not opening up the tram-pandora-box. But I sadly believe that the car infested politics in Germany are by this point too corrupt to efficiently plan and build any public infrastructure without exploding costs, some CDU- or SPD-buddy firms getting insanely rich along the way and the public not getting much (or nothing) at the end...

    • @TFTSB
      @TFTSB  2 дня назад +4

      Hey, a girl can dream

    • @BrunoTorres1
      @BrunoTorres1 День назад +1

      @@TFTSB of course! please dream on and make more videos! ;) (also what else is there to do in Stade then to dream ;P)

    • @TFTSB
      @TFTSB  День назад +1

      Surprisingly, actually, there's been a pitch for a tram line across the region here! Which I'd love to cover as an excuse to cover the Stade Stadtbahn tests that were orchestrated by a group of students back in the 90s!

    • @Wildcard71
      @Wildcard71 День назад

      Look at London: Wimbledon to Waddon Marsh and Addiscombe to Elmers End are former rail lines converted to tram.
      I don't say West Croydon as it contradicts the imagination.

  • @vavy3
    @vavy3 День назад +5

    Maybe it makes sense to start restoring Tramburger from the south side of Elbe, where U-Bahn just doesn't exist at all? Like routes 42 and 13 ?

    • @TFTSB
      @TFTSB  День назад +2

      That would be lovely. Goodness those areas especially would benefit

  • @acmenipponair
    @acmenipponair День назад +3

    By the way, one mistake: Neumünster Süd is not part of the USAR plan anymore, because the HVV ends in Boostedt (as the Kreis Neumünster doesn't want to be part of the HVV)

    • @TFTSB
      @TFTSB  День назад +1

      True! But it is part of the A2 still, hence the technicality

    • @Wildcard71
      @Wildcard71 День назад

      Don't say "Kreis", it's a district free town, surrounded by Plön (PLÖ), Segeberg (SE) and Rendsburg-Eckernförde (RD).
      By the way, the Neumünster broadcasting station is located in Steinburg (IZ).

    • @Wildcard71
      @Wildcard71 День назад

      @@TFTSB Until the 90s, it even didn't have a number. Simply AKN. Those times, you had to change trains at Kaltenkirchen.

  • @Wildcard71
    @Wildcard71 День назад +2

    I would be interested in a line from Tonndorf to Spadenland. They should build a new bridge over the S-Bahn for it. (where there used to be a railway crossing long time ago)

  • @True_NOON
    @True_NOON 17 часов назад +1

    8:20 the Elbphillamonie is positioned not that horribly for it, but crossing that bridge across the dockbay on the way to the nearest station was horrendous (i have vertigo :3)

  • @adrianxoxoxo
    @adrianxoxoxo 12 часов назад +1

    More Videos Please, Now! :D
    Thank you for your nice Vids :)

    • @TFTSB
      @TFTSB  11 часов назад

      More in the works! Also shorts at least 4x a week

  • @MrLOLCraftLP1
    @MrLOLCraftLP1 День назад +1

    Neumünster Süd. Beste Station 😂 Kannst Umsteigen von AKN nach Oldesloe oder bis zum Hbf fahren. Plus eine Abstellung und Waschhalle nebenann.
    Spaß bei seite NMS Süd ist ne ekelhafte Station, Musste von 2019 bis 2022 dort mit der AKN nach Moorbekhalle zur BBZ Norderstedt fahren. Irgendwie hat sie einen Gruseligen vibe. Eine echt Schöne Station die ich empfehelen kann ist Rendsburg mit Ausblick auf die Hochbrücke.
    Meine Lieblingstation auf meiner Strecke ist Plön, beim Sonnenaufgang neben den Plöner see fahren ist traumhaft, vorallem von ganz vorne. 🥰

  • @germanmosca
    @germanmosca День назад +3

    Leipzig would be so fucked without a Tram...
    And last time i was in Hamburg a couple years ago... uggh.... It so desperatly needs Trams to repalce the BRTish bus lines.

  • @gaboversta2.423
    @gaboversta2.423 День назад +2

    Wait. Kiel is getting trams? Why did I not hear of that while living there in September?
    Also, what kind of luck is this,
    - moved to Tallinn a decade before Rail Baltica was completed
    - moved to Kiel ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ before they got a tram
    - moved to Rendsburg just when bus strikes started
    next up the new Coradia Max for Lower Saxony are going to be delayed again just in time for me to move to Emden.

    • @TFTSB
      @TFTSB  День назад

      Yup! Kiel is getting not only a Stadtbahn network, but an S-Bahn network as well!

  • @texer5111
    @texer5111 День назад +1

    You pointed out the Horner Geest extention. When i look at the this project i always ask my self why they don´t extend the line to Jenfeld and Barsbüttel. Do you know a reason for that? Yes the S4 is beeing build, but its not near Jenfeld

    • @TFTSB
      @TFTSB  День назад +1

      Unfortunately not, though I'd imagine it's something to do with funding, NIMBYs, or both

    • @bojstojsa7574
      @bojstojsa7574 23 часа назад

      Because Horner Geest is closer to Horner Rennbahn. It's a cheap and relatively simple two station extension. Once it is completed there will without a doubt be considerations of further extending the U4 to Jenfeld. In the same manner, the U4 is being gradually extended southwards, first with two stations in the Hafencity, then Elbbrücken, now Grasbrook and in the future Northern Wilhelmsburg.
      Barsbüttel will never get a subway over Jenfeld. It's not part of Hamburg and not a densely populated area.

  • @nickib7371
    @nickib7371 День назад

    You're right, let's bring back the trams. Start with line number 5. Use large 2,65m wide wagons.

  • @kailahmann1823
    @kailahmann1823 20 часов назад

    And instead of trams they have the M2 bus lines, which at some point did double-articulated buses every 90 seconds… and they were still crammed.

  • @EisenbahnenBw
    @EisenbahnenBw День назад +1

    My hometown Reutlingen (Baden Württemberg) sadly has the same problem. We are working on a new Stadtbahn system though, it will just take a massiv amount of time

    • @TFTSB
      @TFTSB  День назад

      I'd love to try out y'alls Stadtbahn when the first bit opens

  • @Zenon-x3h
    @Zenon-x3h День назад +2

    And Wiesbaden has no trams too

    • @sidneynixdorf5175
      @sidneynixdorf5175 День назад +1

      And Wiesbaden people don't want one sadly, they just stick to their bus system. Also Wiesbaden has like the worst traffic compared to other cities of its size, driving in Wiesbaden is HELL either if you're car driver or by bike

  • @cbw06
    @cbw06 День назад +2

    0:33 well that was unexpected

  • @erikziak1249
    @erikziak1249 21 час назад +1

    Should have shown the Überseering, a "nice" display of the "Autogerechte Stadt" city planning in Hamburg. Everything for cars, pedestrians forced to walk absurd detours over stairs and pedestrian bridges. Of coruse you will notice various desire paths on the grass, people refuse to walk routes somebody intended for them, they cross the wide 6 lane road wherever they want and rightly so. I did it too when there. But it is such an ugly location to work at, espcially since I used public transit to move around.

    • @TFTSB
      @TFTSB  21 час назад

      This is actually another video I'm wanting to do!

  • @egon1003
    @egon1003 День назад +1

    Die frage ist nur welche tramlinen gebaut werden könnten, ich habe das gefühl hamburg plant überall eine s oder u bahn wo eine tram sinn machen würde. Leider ist halt alles nur planung wie u4 richtung süden oder s bahn nach osdorfer born usw.

    • @bojstojsa7574
      @bojstojsa7574 20 часов назад

      Zum Beispiel auf dem Ring 2 oder der B431 als Ersatz der 1 und abschnittsweise der 2 sowie der Linien 13 und 14.

  • @InsertGreatChannelName
    @InsertGreatChannelName День назад

    Nice

  • @True_NOON
    @True_NOON 17 часов назад +1

    [Moin Bremen]
    Too funny- Niedersachsener

    • @TFTSB
      @TFTSB  16 часов назад

      Thank you for appreciating my humour haha

  • @InsertGreatChannelName
    @InsertGreatChannelName День назад +1

    #Tramburg

  • @BylJsemMichalDva
    @BylJsemMichalDva День назад +1

    #tramburg

  • @dermitseinenzuegen
    @dermitseinenzuegen 16 часов назад +1

    #tramwestberlin

    • @TFTSB
      @TFTSB  16 часов назад

      I'd love that

  • @RoamingAdhocrat
    @RoamingAdhocrat День назад +1

    even keel, lol

  • @erikziak1249
    @erikziak1249 21 час назад

    Regensburg?

  • @AMPProf
    @AMPProf День назад

    Was

  • @exxselnt
    @exxselnt День назад +1

    i dont wont trams in hamburg

    • @TFTSB
      @TFTSB  День назад

      And why is that?

  • @mikaoleander
    @mikaoleander День назад +1

    this video feels like it was tailor-made for me lol, i've been visiting hamburg more frequently in the last couple of months and the lack of trams has been really frustrating, sure the buses are super frequent in many places, but they can be super unreliable because of traffic.
    also happy to see the bremen tram system getting some love. i think it's very interesting how BSAG is handling the unique challenges of 1) bremen having no money, 2) the ground that bremen is built on being super soft and sandy, making tunnels extremely unviable, and 3) all of bremen's bridges over the river weser being bombed in ww2, meaning that even today there are very few bridges. i would love to see a video on bremen's tram system at some point :)
    (also let's not mention that, like in many parts of germany, all of bremen's bridges are in desperate need of repairs, with one of the 2 bridges used by the trams closing literally today and it will not be reopened any time soon, which is a huge blow to the transit network 🥲)
    edit: how tf did my side note get twice as long as my actual comment

    • @TFTSB
      @TFTSB  День назад +1

      I'd love to cover Bremen in an upcoming video. That's one of my favourite cities, period - and they have quite a history with a whole planned out cancelled U-bahn Netz!

    • @simulatorfreak
      @simulatorfreak 16 часов назад

      @@TFTSB hannover had exactly the same plans. They wanted to switch from the tram to the underground. Now there is a good light rail system there