I was a tooling designer at Commonwealth Engineering in the early 80's. I did the jigs to build the Z1 and Z2 trams as well as the Articulated trams. Fun times.
Really enjoyed this podcast style collab between you and Taitset, would really like to see this style of ranking video but instead of Melbourne Suburban trains or even both Electric trains and Vline country trains.
@@Taitset However, if you look at most second generation tramways (like the Sydney Light rail, Parramatta light rail, Newcastle light rail, Canberra light rail and G-Link), there is no need to even request a stop, any more than there is a need to request a metro or suburban railway station. Have you ever watched for people waiting at your stop and not bother to request it if you see people waiting there? Have you ever seen people miss their stops because they did not expect to have to request them? I have, on occasion, missed trams because the driver did not see me.
However, light rail in other states (except for the off-street section in Adelaide) just stops at all stops regardless. You might think that is worse than having to search for a button in a packed tram but have you ever seen people miss their stops because they did not expect to have to request them?
W-Class is S-tier purely for its legendary status. There were trams before it and trams after it but W-Class is the only tram that we’ll never officially retire even as a resident that’s lived here all my life and was never around in the W-Class era it still puts a smile on my face whenever I see one it’s perfect in that way, you know it’s like Supermarine Spitfire something so perfect that it became an icon except that it’s a tram. Hopefully G-Glass can become as legendary as W-Class trams.
Good vid - but old man mutters about missing the 3-door W-class trams with *canvas* *roller* *doors* . With the "first class" section at each end, with a sliding wooden door and long bench seats. Those were the days... (Of course those were the days - I was 12). The route map was on the back of the drivers door: it had all the distances in miles, furlongs and *chains*. Wonderful for horse race fans and 19th Century surveyors. Z-class was peak 1979: my first ride was to the Rivoli to see Moonraker for my cousin's birthday
B2 appreciation club, I used to work in East Melbourne, so I'd always get the tram from Flinders Street using the Route 75 along Wellington Parade and loved when I'd get a B2 over an A class. E-class is the best out of the modern fleet, also used to work on Bourke Street so I'd see plenty of those as well as the odd C2, and I do like the way they ride. Rode one out to Northcotte a few times to look at rentals earlier in the year and they do ride nicely.
@@JackStavris yeah B2s are so nice, they're so roomy and the seats are really comfy. I think Comeng initially wanted to make a low floor tram instead of the current b2 design though, I wonder how it would've turned out
The city trams were my "company car" in the 80's. Used to work as a lift mechanic with Johns Perry Lifts and when you worked the city they gave us a annual tram card for us to get around. Many a time going up Collins street of any of the main drags in Melbourne with my apprentice holding an extension ladder between the doors in a W class tram. WH&S would have kittens now if we did that. Often we used to help the clippie when the pole came off the wire at the top of Collins and Spring St. Fun times.
Hey guys, a local here from the Netherlands. The combino trams in Amsterdam are indeed single-ended, however there are 4 trams that have got 2 cabs and doors on both sides. All the other 151 are single-ended. Great vid btw!
Do the single-ended trams there have a big turning loop at the end of the line, or is there no end and they then continue to another line and go back to somewhere else?
@@Wdeane1957 The lines with single-ended trams have indeed turning loops at both ends of the line. In Amsterdam there are no lines that continue as other lines at the terminus. Line 14 is the only exception: line 14 has a turning loop at the one end, but runs at the other end a circular route with multiple stops. And of course the lines with double-ended trams (lines 5 and 25) are also an exception. The Gleisplan website has a schematic diagram of the tram tracks in Amsterdam and also diagrams of other European and even American cities.
The third light from 39:04 is a very European thing. Most, if not all railed vehicles here are required to have a triangle of white lights at the front. So I'm guessing that metro couldn't buy combino's without toplights
Up all night doing many things, flick on RUclips as the sun's coming up looking for a few videos to wind down with. Sees the video, wonders "how could a tier list video be one hour long", then sees it's Taitset and Philip. It could have gone for another hour and I'd have zero complaints. Just robbing Peter to pay Paul now, but an hour less sleep is justified in this case. Speaking on behalf of the small group of gunzels I'm fostering, we'd love to see more collaborations from the two of you in future :)
Greetings from Philadelphia, PA (USA). Loving this introduction to Phil's channel (a Taitset subscriber here). I've never been down under, but these sound like a lot of interesting trams, which is fueling my urge more than ever. I've learned more about modern (post-W class) trams in this video than ever before. Interesting fact with the C1: That same configuration was first tried over one hundred years ago in Boston, MA. They took two single-truck cars and hung a massive entry area between them (the cars were subsequently called "two beds and a bath". The results were about what one might expect: By all accounts it rode worse than even the C1. They never learn, do they?
@@Myrtone I know what the next fleet will be like. And I know that there are some fixed-bogie units that are sufficient in their applications. But Philadelphia, like Melbourne, is a heritage system, with two different divisions that have historically used different wheel profiles. Being concerned about wheel design is only logical in this context.
11:42 The conductor’s space was most recently converted into standing room with a lean seat against the side wall but in the 1990s it was where the Metcard machines were installed which were in that position until around 2014 by what I remember but they did have Miki machines instead for a couple of years prior to the reconfiguration! :)
Fantastic video guys! So great to see a collaboration between two of my favourite transport creators. Here's hoping that you'll do more videos together in the future!
When I was in Melbourne earlier this year, I didn't have time to ride all the tram classes, but I did catch C1s on the 109 a few times. I am not a fan of the C1 class because of their bland appearance and rough ride quality (not to mention the horrible grinding noise when they go through a sharp curve). The other classes I managed to ride on were the C2, E2, W8 and Z3. On the whole, I was impressed by the city's tram network, and it was cool to finally see it again after riding the preserved Melbourne trams here in New Zealand. As for the restaurant trams, I remember seeing and photographing at least one of them the first time I was in Melbourne (back in October 2013). At the time, I did realise how important the photographs could be in the future. W2 class No. 411 is still running as a restaurant tram, albeit across the ditch in Christchurch.
Thanks guys amazing and informative video rating trams! As a regular route 12/109 user can confirm I often wait for an A class to come along especially in summer! Hoping they can also fix the awful creaking and groaning sounds and uncomfortable feeling coming to a stop of the E class on the G class!
Thanks both of you for the video, hope to see you collab more in the future. I know it's a bit subjective and everyone has their own judging criteria, fair enough, but I have to say I was a little surprised how little accessibility factored into both of your ranking. They are after all, _public_ transport, so in my opinion all subsets of the public -- including, for example, wheelchair users like myself -- being able to actually access and use these trams should be an important factor. Maybe from a mechanical and smooth ride point of view the C1 class is subpar, but in my opinion it marks an important step forwards into taking accessibility seriously. For this alone I'd rate the C1 class relatively high, while still leaving room for the more recent and improved low floor trams to rank higher. On the other hand, I can give the legacy trams pre-1990 some lenience, but I'd have to dock points for a fairly recent and inaccessible tram like the B2 class -- which was still being ordered and manufactured as recently as the mid 90s for the B2 -- after the disability discrimination act (DDA) had already passed in 1992.
So how do the E class and upcoming G class (with slight inclines next to the doors and in the aisles) compare to the other low floor trams, which have completely flat low floor areas?
@@Myrtone I love the E class trams, the slight incline is compliant with DDA accessibilitt standards and not an issue. I think they are considerably better than the older accesible trams like the C1. Can't wait to try out the G classes, from what I've seen in Phillip's and Taitset's early preview of them, they look fantastic!
@@stormblessed2673 You might think it is not an issue because it complies with the D.D.A. This is a dangerous assumption, as rules vary between jurisdictions and change over time. Have you ever observed how other people ride trams or spoken to people about why they don't ride them? In particular, have you ever observed how others also in wheelchairs use public transport or spoken to any about why they don't ride trams, even low floor ones?
Agree that the B-class are the best. I didn't know they originally experimented with moveable steps for different platform heights. Reminds me of the Muni Metro light rail/trams in San Francisco. That seems to work well over there. I also like how the B-class have the fold out stop signs to warn drivers. Such a shame that all the modern trams don't have that.
I remember riding some of these trams when I stayed in Melbourne back in 2010. Was in fact staying somewhere near the far end of the 75 tram (and yes I do remember riding it all the way from the city out there)
I travel on the E class trams almost daily, and I agree that the interiors are a huge improvement on all the C and Ds, which always frustrated me so much to ride. It was like no thought had been put into the actual functionality of the interiors at all. At first, the Cs used to only have one call button at each door section (that's one covering the doors on both sides, not one per door). Oh how I hated those trams! But I find the E class are really un-smooth. They don't rock; they surge unevenly forward. I've gotten motion sickness on a ten minute ride on one! Never had motion sickness on a tram before.
The E class interior floors, however, are not completely flat. There is a slight incline next to the doors which the Australian Quadriplegic Association (aqa.org.au) claims are a danger to disembarking wheelchair users.
In the 80s there were still some of W8 class trams working in the city which had more character and ambience than any other. I have strong happy memories of them, but thats mostly because my best friends property had a clean W8 class tram on stilts and we always played on it, pretending to be the driver, always lifting a wooden flap to see what destination I was cranking the front sign to. Everything still worked, it was in excellent condition for . I will always remember the smell of the wood on those trams...
They look the same but mechanically very different. 6 sections and about 55m long, bogey under each section, no suspended sections. They are a later design after Siemens learned too late about the cracking that affected the Combinos in Melbourne and a number of European cities. (Someone should have told CAF!)
Sadly so many of the older trams were not accessible for many other mobility aids, not just wheelchairs. Accessibility is so often overlook in videos about public transport, so kudos for mentioning it, and great video guys.
I've seen some people get pretty upset at the changes to the W8, but I think it's quite cool the way the hid as much of the new gear as possible and still meet some modern standards to keep them running every day.
A couple of notes- C2 class- the right front/left rear single doors on the C2 are functional, but permanently isolated when in service. This is because some stops aren't long enough to have all the doors open on to the platform (Spring & Bourke, South Melbourne Market come to mind). The E class (1m longer) gets around this by having the doors set further in from the extremities of the tram. E class- internally they are designated as either E1 or E2 (so it's not solely a gunzel term), but in practice are just called E (same story with A1 & A2). The E2 cabs have superior visibility as the large A pillars on the E1 design cause blindspots that necessitated the retrofitting of extra cameras. The separate cab door is beloved by drivers and will be sorely missed on the G class. I was surprised to see the C2 so high up as they have all the same handling & ride quality issues of the C1!
Really appreciate your videos which show a lot of small things that can be explored around Melbourne. With a mortgage and cost of living challenges, we can't really travel oversea, interstate or even resort towns in Victoria as much as we like and do get stuck in Melbourne most of the time.
I use trams, buses and trains a lot and love to explore Victoria in public transport. I have to say that I absolutely hate the D2 trams, so much waste of space and the single seats are too close together so it’s kind of awkward to share the feet space with someone else. Love your work guys I’d like to be more involved in the public transport community, I find it fascinating. 😊
Side displays! If you’re at a longer stop with multiple routes, one model I dunno which one, has only one single small side display, and if you miss the front display and the side display is broken or covered in advertising or at the far end of the tram from you it’s really easy to get on the wrong tram or miss your tram, esp if the tramTRACKER screens say your tram that’s at your stop is actually still a minute or two away.
W is definitely an s class, I see so many people look twice when they see one! Now onto waiting for the train tier list I guess, any ideas if that would happen?
The issue you refer to with the D1/D2 is related to frame strengthening after Siemens recalled the combino due to cracking frames. They removed a number of seats in the strengthening process and added diagonal reinforcing between the ceiling and walls at the ends of the sections. When they were delivered, there was a 2x2 layout on the outer seats over the bogies.
Nice nerdy video! 😏 Interesting that you rate the two Citadis C1 and C2 very differently, although they should be technically pretty similar cause the Citadis is a system vehicle. Alstom developed this type primarily for the many new light rail systems in France over the last 25 years. The speciality of the Citadis is that the front can usually be redesigned for each city. What comes behind it, however, is usually identical... On the C1, it is noticeable that the body is not cambered - otherwise a typical feature of all Citadis (as on the C2). Does anyone know why this is the case? Mr T, you pronounced Mulhouse quite correctly 😀Btw Mulhouse is an interesting little town with the French national railway museum (Cité du Train) and the Cité de l'Automoblie, the largest car museum in the world with a movie-like history... Greetings from upover (Berne/Europe)
Also, no sound plays when the button is pressed and I saw a woman miss her stop at night because she thought she pressed that button but actually had not. That said, light rail in other states, with the exception of that off-street section in Adelaide, stops at all stops regardless. You might think that is worse than not having the request buttons where you need them but have you ever seen people miss their stops because they did not expect to have to request them? I have heard of that before.
I’d have put the E on top tier, but I’m probably biased because it’s the one I use most and it feels like E classes are my trams. I agree that Ws are just obsolete as trams but that Melbourne wouldn’t look right without them, and yes I’m another one who was only interested in riding on a W class on my first visit here. I’d give them a B grade just because any transport minister that got rid of them would probably be tarred and feathered. Oh, and you guys missed out on the Restaurant Tram. We went three times on various special occasions like milestone birthdays and anniversaries, and had a fantastic experience each time. Yeah, not cheap but the food was excellent and eating a delicious dinner while spending the evening trundling around the inner suburbs was a delight. I was very sad to see it go and I’d book in a heartbeat if it came back.
The narrowing front overhang on the Z class is for loading gauge reasons as the tram would stick out too far out of a curve otherwise. Nearly all PCCs in the world have this and are having the same problem with platform stops due to it.
A little known bit of trivia is the Z4 which eventually evolved into the A class was designed to operate in multiple. The unions opposed this as it was seen as a way of reducing the number of drivers (despite the Sydney O/P class and the Adelaide H class operating in multiple, in Adelaide for over 50 years by that time). As a result the couplers were never fitted. The B class has essentially the same electrical equipment and could theoretically operate in multiple, and the A and B could theoretically work in multiple with each other. However very few termini could have accommodated A/B or B/B pairs.
re: the extra light at the top of the D1 combino: at least in the Netherlands a rail vehicle has to have three white headlights, and that third light is that same one you see on the top of the Amsterdam Combino trams
A1 still has the tie-down bar for the trolley pole just on top of the windscreen while the A2 doesn't. Z3 is the MVP for loading and unloading speed. You can't get stuck up the back like all the other classes - because there's a door at the very back, plus I enjoy not having any automated announcements (that one might just be me though). Double doors at the front, where the majority of people prefer to board, is also excellent. Great design IMO, far better than any other for those reasons alone..
As someone with an invisible disability that means I have a tendency to bloat and gain weight (it’s a symptom), all trams post Bs are significantly less comfortable The the well-cushioned, bench style seats make it so much easier to fit in around other passengers and find an angle that works and doesn’t jam into my bum or genitals in a cruel and unusual way The better stability, and various nooks and corners of the b and z class trams also make it easier to get out of people’s way while standing, but also to do so while keeping close enough to the seats to nab one when someone gets off without having to battle someone speedier who probably doesn’t need it as much Finally, although they’re hopefuls for wheelchair users, my parents actually find the design of the door handles much easier to grab onto for support while they hoist themselves up the steps, one at a time, so they actually put less weight on their dodgy knees to get in the supposedly more disability friendly models from recent years - so being disability friendly is more a matter of what disability you have and what your needs are I think the hypothetical b tier models with the combination of door types allowing for wheelchair/pram/shopping trolley users is really the overall winner for addressing a combination of needs
Watching what is possibly the best video on RUclips and low and behold the B3 Class comes up. Fun fact, one of these does actually exist, albeit only in Lego form
The C2's were leased for the 2006 Melbourne Commonwealth Games, and yes it was an awkward discussion.... Mullhouse owned them, their network was in its infancy, so superfluous to the then requirements.... and I believe the then state government bought them outright.
I'll defend C1 over D class because I truly do despise the D class seating configuration. But then again I also enjoy x'trapolis trains so maybe I just like a bumpy ride. I hate the Siemens trains as well.. hmm. I probably enjoy A and B class the most, but I almost never use the E or C2 class routes so it's hard to form a strong opinion about them. Looking forward to the Gs though. They seem like a nice mix of old and new. Great video guys!
Today, I had to help an old man with a walking frame off an E class due to the slight incline next to the door, which in turn is because of the pivoting bogies often preferred by railfans.
Some of the earliest level platforms were built in the year 2000-2001 when the 109 tram route was extended from Balwyn to Box Hill! Also the light rail platforms on the Port Melbourne and St Kilda lines were originally not level as they were a bit lower or higher than the tram doors but were modified to be suitable for level boarding in 2000-2001! :)
I would rate the w class restaurant trams S tier! I miss them. Haven’t been on city circle in years so i can’t rate them. I look forward to the G class! It will be interesting if they use that design to ultimately replace the C/D trams While the d’s aren’t favourable overall using a d2 on route 6 imo is not optimal given what appears to be lower patronage than other routes and not many low floor stops. If they were to have built low floor stops on route 19 than it would make sense to concentrate them there. Interestingly enough they were on the 96 at one point a place they were never designed to go 😂
The B3 is almost a M31 tram. M31 is rebuilt M21 trams build by ASEA/Hägglunds that also developed the M25, M28 and M29 that the Z class was built up on.
As a tram commuter, the B Class is by far my favourite. The only time I'll prefer something else is if I have the pram so I have to walk to St Kilda Junction to wait for a D class.
Great video guys! As an American I found all of this very interesting. I was wondering though what happened to that C class at 26:04 like where did the rest of it go?
it bent around into the fence of a property, tends to happen with articulated trams when they derail. well, actually it completely broke through the fence. imagine being the person living in that house, hearing a loud bang and screeching outside and then seeing a tram in your front garden
One thing I notice when I ride an A2 tram is that some of them have a footy whistle noise when you pull the stop string or press the stop button which I haven’t heard on any other trams 😂
With the door at the front of the new G class, I know when I take the route 16 or 72 to the end, if the trams use the drop off stop, most of the time the driver will only open the front door, and get everyone out of that door, so that it is harder for a car to mow through people getting off. I do wonder if that door is going to be used the same way if they need to stop and get people off outside of the normal stops.
I do love b's and my kids recognise them too. Thanks to the video on the new g class. My conclusion is, the PTC did better Trams as high floors, and just do low floor sections for and have conductor's on board. I had the unfortunate task of riding D's down 96 to north Fitzroy for a few years, such hateful vehicles. I think overall low floors suck for buses too. Of course I loved mk1 and mk2 man's so maybe I'm quite biased. The b's have had a recent bogie replacement scheme instead of testing and rebuilding the 30~ year old units. So they are good to go for a while yet.
The A class tram types can be distinguished between each other quickly by the round trolley pole reel bases on the front which is only on the A1 class trams while only the A1 class trams have abandoned trolley pole mounting points but some A1s have also more recently had this removed! :)
The new seat arrangement on the B class theoretically increased capacity, but it actually decreased capacity in practice. 2, possibly 3 people can stand in the same area that previously seated 4 people. The only way they fit more people is by squashing everyone in like sardines.
I generally like the E class trams but I find 2 things weird: 1) Some seats have a weird popping noise when you lean hard on the seats (I think the seats closest to the doors) 2) No front doors
Another thing to consider is that the interior floor is not completely flat. According to the Australian Quadriplegic Association (aqa.org.au) this puts disembarking wheelchair users at a danger of somersaulting out of their wheelchairs.
Glad its not just me, the seat popping is really annoying, especially with the inertia from the tram accelerating and decelerating meaning it happens over and over.
I reckon the W5-7 and B class trams were too conservative. I understand that you can’t always have the absolute latest technology, however I think we should have got PCC based trams in the 1940s instead of loud and largely wooden trams which were fundamentally similar to the first Ws of the 1920s. The B2s could have been low floor from the beginning (there were actually plans in 1982 and early 1990s) which I think would have been doable.
On the D trams, if there's not many people and I don't feel like sitting, I'll just rest my bum on those folded up middle seats or lean against the inside glass.
Referring to my other comment somewhere about the comfort of riding based on the kind of disability, I have a radically different rating for C2s - they go in the D tier with the other C class - those seats are awful and there’s not nearly enough to grab onto as you move through the carriage
The other not 100% reliable method for A1 vs A2 is the obvious provision of retraction ties for the trolley poles... a small ellipse shape on the front right.
Thanks for having me on the channel Philip!
If anyone has suggestions about other topics you'd like to see us do in this style, please let us know!
Trains would be great! Maybe buses!
also maybe V/line!
Ranking all train or tram lines would be nice.
how effective the city loop is compared to say adelaide and other termini that don't have through-running
Talk about rules and facilities for prams, bikes, scooters and other such vehicles.
You two have to understand, this is basically Christmas for your fans
Tyrek Lannister was last seen atram
I was a tooling designer at Commonwealth Engineering in the early 80's. I did the jigs to build the Z1 and Z2 trams as well as the Articulated trams. Fun times.
Really enjoyed this podcast style collab between you and Taitset, would really like to see this style of ranking video but instead of Melbourne Suburban trains or even both Electric trains and Vline country trains.
VLine train a waste of time, within a couple of years there will only be one type, vLocity
Not hard. G class loco.
@@WanderingBabs Sprinters will still be here for another decade or so, and the n sets still have at least half a decade on the Swan Hill route.
as a person who has never been to Melbourne in his life, this video is 🔥🔥
One thing I love about the Comeng trams is the stop cables. No need to walk around in search for a button in a packed tram!
Agreed! And very satisfying to use.
Agree 100%.
@@Taitset However, if you look at most second generation tramways (like the Sydney Light rail, Parramatta light rail, Newcastle light rail, Canberra light rail and G-Link), there is no need to even request a stop, any more than there is a need to request a metro or suburban railway station.
Have you ever watched for people waiting at your stop and not bother to request it if you see people waiting there?
Have you ever seen people miss their stops because they did not expect to have to request them?
I have, on occasion, missed trams because the driver did not see me.
YES!! so helpful when you’re carrying stuff and have a bunch of things to gather
However, light rail in other states (except for the off-street section in Adelaide) just stops at all stops regardless. You might think that is worse than having to search for a button in a packed tram but have you ever seen people miss their stops because they did not expect to have to request them?
5:51 SO TRUE🤣🤣🤣
I filmed a W class tram and it wasnt flickering but in the video, it was
This was so entertaining. Two blokes chatting about their loves of the trams 🚊
Awesome video. This was a really calming way to spend my afternoon, listening to two guys rate trams…
I watched it while (very slowly) unloading the dishwasher. Sooo relaxing
Great seeing my favorite VIC based urban channels collaborate, hope to see more of these in the future. Surely with Julian O'Shea
W-Class is S-tier purely for its legendary status.
There were trams before it and trams after it but W-Class is the only tram that we’ll never officially retire even as a resident that’s lived here all my life and was never around in the W-Class era it still puts a smile on my face whenever I see one it’s perfect in that way, you know it’s like Supermarine Spitfire something so perfect that it became an icon except that it’s a tram.
Hopefully G-Glass can become as legendary as W-Class trams.
I love how the D class in the C tier and the C class is in the D tier
Good vid - but old man mutters about missing the 3-door W-class trams with *canvas* *roller* *doors* . With the "first class" section at each end, with a sliding wooden door and long bench seats. Those were the days... (Of course those were the days - I was 12).
The route map was on the back of the drivers door: it had all the distances in miles, furlongs and *chains*. Wonderful for horse race fans and 19th Century surveyors.
Z-class was peak 1979: my first ride was to the Rivoli to see Moonraker for my cousin's birthday
B2 appreciation club, I used to work in East Melbourne, so I'd always get the tram from Flinders Street using the Route 75 along Wellington Parade and loved when I'd get a B2 over an A class.
E-class is the best out of the modern fleet, also used to work on Bourke Street so I'd see plenty of those as well as the odd C2, and I do like the way they ride. Rode one out to Northcotte a few times to look at rentals earlier in the year and they do ride nicely.
@@JackStavris yeah B2s are so nice, they're so roomy and the seats are really comfy. I think Comeng initially wanted to make a low floor tram instead of the current b2 design though, I wonder how it would've turned out
The city trams were my "company car" in the 80's. Used to work as a lift mechanic with Johns Perry Lifts and when you worked the city they gave us a annual tram card for us to get around. Many a time going up Collins street of any of the main drags in Melbourne with my apprentice holding an extension ladder between the doors in a W class tram. WH&S would have kittens now if we did that. Often we used to help the clippie when the pole came off the wire at the top of Collins and Spring St. Fun times.
Hey guys, a local here from the Netherlands. The combino trams in Amsterdam are indeed single-ended, however there are 4 trams that have got 2 cabs and doors on both sides. All the other 151 are single-ended.
Great vid btw!
Do the single-ended trams there have a big turning loop at the end of the line, or is there no end and they then continue to another line and go back to somewhere else?
@@Wdeane1957 The lines with single-ended trams have indeed turning loops at both ends of the line. In Amsterdam there are no lines that continue as other lines at the terminus. Line 14 is the only exception: line 14 has a turning loop at the one end, but runs at the other end a circular route with multiple stops. And of course the lines with double-ended trams (lines 5 and 25) are also an exception.
The Gleisplan website has a schematic diagram of the tram tracks in Amsterdam and also diagrams of other European and even American cities.
Thanks very much for that information!
The third light from 39:04 is a very European thing. Most, if not all railed vehicles here are required to have a triangle of white lights at the front. So I'm guessing that metro couldn't buy combino's without toplights
Wonderful video … I learnt a lot. 🤓 Hoping for more of these collabs! ✌️
Up all night doing many things, flick on RUclips as the sun's coming up looking for a few videos to wind down with. Sees the video, wonders "how could a tier list video be one hour long", then sees it's Taitset and Philip. It could have gone for another hour and I'd have zero complaints. Just robbing Peter to pay Paul now, but an hour less sleep is justified in this case. Speaking on behalf of the small group of gunzels I'm fostering, we'd love to see more collaborations from the two of you in future :)
Stoked on this collab. My two favourite melbourne based public transport/urban RUclipsrs
Love the collab!! I'll never get over you both giving the Z class a B :(
This is the collab we all needed, and some great perspectives and opinions shared between you two, nicely done!
Greetings from Philadelphia, PA (USA). Loving this introduction to Phil's channel (a Taitset subscriber here).
I've never been down under, but these sound like a lot of interesting trams, which is fueling my urge more than ever. I've learned more about modern (post-W class) trams in this video than ever before.
Interesting fact with the C1: That same configuration was first tried over one hundred years ago in Boston, MA. They took two single-truck cars and hung a massive entry area between them (the cars were subsequently called "two beds and a bath". The results were about what one might expect: By all accounts it rode worse than even the C1. They never learn, do they?
And your new trolley fleet will also have short segments on fixed bogies. There are, however, plenty of fixed bogie LRVs that *are* fit for purpose.
@@Myrtone I know what the next fleet will be like.
And I know that there are some fixed-bogie units that are sufficient in their applications.
But Philadelphia, like Melbourne, is a heritage system, with two different divisions that have historically used different wheel profiles. Being concerned about wheel design is only logical in this context.
11:42
The conductor’s space was most recently converted into standing room with a lean seat against the side wall but in the 1990s it was where the Metcard machines were installed which were in that position until around 2014 by what I remember but they did have Miki machines instead for a couple of years prior to the reconfiguration! :)
Ah that's interesting I didn't know that, thanks for that!
Fantastic video guys! So great to see a collaboration between two of my favourite transport creators. Here's hoping that you'll do more videos together in the future!
When I was in Melbourne earlier this year, I didn't have time to ride all the tram classes, but I did catch C1s on the 109 a few times. I am not a fan of the C1 class because of their bland appearance and rough ride quality (not to mention the horrible grinding noise when they go through a sharp curve).
The other classes I managed to ride on were the C2, E2, W8 and Z3. On the whole, I was impressed by the city's tram network, and it was cool to finally see it again after riding the preserved Melbourne trams here in New Zealand.
As for the restaurant trams, I remember seeing and photographing at least one of them the first time I was in Melbourne (back in October 2013). At the time, I did realise how important the photographs could be in the future. W2 class No. 411 is still running as a restaurant tram, albeit across the ditch in Christchurch.
I enjoyed the 2 of you working together, hopefully we will see more collaborations in the near future. thank you both
Thanks guys amazing and informative video rating trams! As a regular route 12/109 user can confirm I often wait for an A class to come along especially in summer! Hoping they can also fix the awful creaking and groaning sounds and uncomfortable feeling coming to a stop of the E class on the G class!
Thanks both of you for the video, hope to see you collab more in the future. I know it's a bit subjective and everyone has their own judging criteria, fair enough, but I have to say I was a little surprised how little accessibility factored into both of your ranking.
They are after all, _public_ transport, so in my opinion all subsets of the public -- including, for example, wheelchair users like myself -- being able to actually access and use these trams should be an important factor. Maybe from a mechanical and smooth ride point of view the C1 class is subpar, but in my opinion it marks an important step forwards into taking accessibility seriously. For this alone I'd rate the C1 class relatively high, while still leaving room for the more recent and improved low floor trams to rank higher.
On the other hand, I can give the legacy trams pre-1990 some lenience, but I'd have to dock points for a fairly recent and inaccessible tram like the B2 class -- which was still being ordered and manufactured as recently as the mid 90s for the B2 -- after the disability discrimination act (DDA) had already passed in 1992.
So how do the E class and upcoming G class (with slight inclines next to the doors and in the aisles) compare to the other low floor trams, which have completely flat low floor areas?
@@Myrtone I love the E class trams, the slight incline is compliant with DDA accessibilitt standards and not an issue. I think they are considerably better than the older accesible trams like the C1.
Can't wait to try out the G classes, from what I've seen in Phillip's and Taitset's early preview of them, they look fantastic!
@@stormblessed2673 You might think it is not an issue because it complies with the D.D.A. This is a dangerous assumption, as rules vary between jurisdictions and change over time.
Have you ever observed how other people ride trams or spoken to people about why they don't ride them?
In particular, have you ever observed how others also in wheelchairs use public transport or spoken to any about why they don't ride trams, even low floor ones?
Agree that the B-class are the best. I didn't know they originally experimented with moveable steps for different platform heights. Reminds me of the Muni Metro light rail/trams in San Francisco. That seems to work well over there. I also like how the B-class have the fold out stop signs to warn drivers. Such a shame that all the modern trams don't have that.
this is an iconic collab!
hearing how well you get on makes me soooo happy 🥰
I've caught maybe 4-5 trams (none of them covered here) in my life but just listened to two guys talk about trams for over a hour.
I remember riding some of these trams when I stayed in Melbourne back in 2010. Was in fact staying somewhere near the far end of the 75 tram (and yes I do remember riding it all the way from the city out there)
Lets go, couldn't of asked for a better video to enjoy my Monday afternoon with. Thanks to both of you for your amazing content, keep it up
I travel on the E class trams almost daily, and I agree that the interiors are a huge improvement on all the C and Ds, which always frustrated me so much to ride. It was like no thought had been put into the actual functionality of the interiors at all. At first, the Cs used to only have one call button at each door section (that's one covering the doors on both sides, not one per door). Oh how I hated those trams!
But I find the E class are really un-smooth. They don't rock; they surge unevenly forward. I've gotten motion sickness on a ten minute ride on one! Never had motion sickness on a tram before.
The E class interior floors, however, are not completely flat. There is a slight incline next to the doors which the Australian Quadriplegic Association (aqa.org.au) claims are a danger to disembarking wheelchair users.
In the 80s there were still some of W8 class trams working in the city which had more character and ambience than any other. I have strong happy memories of them, but thats mostly because my best friends property had a clean W8 class tram on stilts and we always played on it, pretending to be the driver, always lifting a wooden flap to see what destination I was cranking the front sign to. Everything still worked, it was in excellent condition for . I will always remember the smell of the wood on those trams...
42:44 There is also an almost identical tram in Budapest, the only difference from what I can tell it’s they’re much longer.
They look the same but mechanically very different. 6 sections and about 55m long, bogey under each section, no suspended sections. They are a later design after Siemens learned too late about the cracking that affected the Combinos in Melbourne and a number of European cities. (Someone should have told CAF!)
cant believe i just watched a 1 hour video about 2 gunzels ranking all the trains, absolute great video 👍
Sadly so many of the older trams were not accessible for many other mobility aids, not just wheelchairs. Accessibility is so often overlook in videos about public transport, so kudos for mentioning it, and great video guys.
Another issue is the problem request stopping (or at least our implementation of it) places for visually impaired people, also overlooked.
I was at that C1 launch at inglisby rd in 2003 too... I recall practically fainting from excitement, I would've been 6 or 7 years old.
W class are a tram that make feel of Melbourne tram, From Brisbane Queensland guy
Wake up babe! Is it my birthday? Philip Mallis and Martin Bennet just dropped a new collab!
I've seen some people get pretty upset at the changes to the W8, but I think it's quite cool the way the hid as much of the new gear as possible and still meet some modern standards to keep them running every day.
A couple of notes-
C2 class- the right front/left rear single doors on the C2 are functional, but permanently isolated when in service. This is because some stops aren't long enough to have all the doors open on to the platform (Spring & Bourke, South Melbourne Market come to mind). The E class (1m longer) gets around this by having the doors set further in from the extremities of the tram.
E class- internally they are designated as either E1 or E2 (so it's not solely a gunzel term), but in practice are just called E (same story with A1 & A2). The E2 cabs have superior visibility as the large A pillars on the E1 design cause blindspots that necessitated the retrofitting of extra cameras. The separate cab door is beloved by drivers and will be sorely missed on the G class.
I was surprised to see the C2 so high up as they have all the same handling & ride quality issues of the C1!
Really appreciate your videos which show a lot of small things that can be explored around Melbourne. With a mortgage and cost of living challenges, we can't really travel oversea, interstate or even resort towns in Victoria as much as we like and do get stuck in Melbourne most of the time.
I use trams, buses and trains a lot and love to explore Victoria in public transport. I have to say that I absolutely hate the D2 trams, so much waste of space and the single seats are too close together so it’s kind of awkward to share the feet space with someone else. Love your work guys I’d like to be more involved in the public transport community, I find it fascinating. 😊
So in that case, what do you think of the Variotrams that used to run in Sydney?
Side displays! If you’re at a longer stop with multiple routes, one model I dunno which one, has only one single small side display, and if you miss the front display and the side display is broken or covered in advertising or at the far end of the tram from you it’s really easy to get on the wrong tram or miss your tram, esp if the tramTRACKER screens say your tram that’s at your stop is actually still a minute or two away.
The Ben Hur of tram videos.Only far more enjoyable.
W is definitely an s class, I see so many people look twice when they see one! Now onto waiting for the train tier list I guess, any ideas if that would happen?
Well done fellas' a great presentation.
The issue you refer to with the D1/D2 is related to frame strengthening after Siemens recalled the combino due to cracking frames. They removed a number of seats in the strengthening process and added diagonal reinforcing between the ceiling and walls at the ends of the sections. When they were delivered, there was a 2x2 layout on the outer seats over the bogies.
Nice nerdy video! 😏
Interesting that you rate the two Citadis C1 and C2 very differently, although they should be technically pretty similar cause the Citadis is a system vehicle. Alstom developed this type primarily for the many new light rail systems in France over the last 25 years. The speciality of the Citadis is that the front can usually be redesigned for each city. What comes behind it, however, is usually identical...
On the C1, it is noticeable that the body is not cambered - otherwise a typical feature of all Citadis (as on the C2). Does anyone know why this is the case?
Mr T, you pronounced Mulhouse quite correctly 😀Btw Mulhouse is an interesting little town with the French national railway museum (Cité du Train) and the Cité de l'Automoblie, the largest car museum in the world with a movie-like history...
Greetings from upover (Berne/Europe)
Thanks for that information!
Stop buttons on the D class are NEVER WHERE I NEED THEM! Bring back the cord
Also, no sound plays when the button is pressed and I saw a woman miss her stop at night because she thought she pressed that button but actually had not.
That said, light rail in other states, with the exception of that off-street section in Adelaide, stops at all stops regardless. You might think that is worse than not having the request buttons where you need them but have you ever seen people miss their stops because they did not expect to have to request them? I have heard of that before.
I’d have put the E on top tier, but I’m probably biased because it’s the one I use most and it feels like E classes are my trams. I agree that Ws are just obsolete as trams but that Melbourne wouldn’t look right without them, and yes I’m another one who was only interested in riding on a W class on my first visit here. I’d give them a B grade just because any transport minister that got rid of them would probably be tarred and feathered.
Oh, and you guys missed out on the Restaurant Tram. We went three times on various special occasions like milestone birthdays and anniversaries, and had a fantastic experience each time. Yeah, not cheap but the food was excellent and eating a delicious dinner while spending the evening trundling around the inner suburbs was a delight. I was very sad to see it go and I’d book in a heartbeat if it came back.
As someone who took trams along the 70 and 75 lines a lot for a long time, I feel very attached to them.
The narrowing front overhang on the Z class is for loading gauge reasons as the tram would stick out too far out of a curve otherwise. Nearly all PCCs in the world have this and are having the same problem with platform stops due to it.
That's very interesting, thank you I had no idea!
I like the high floor rams because there’s heaps more seating that the c class which sre are the 2 trams that run in my area.
Have you ever checked out light rail with high platform loading? There are plenty of examples overseas.
A little known bit of trivia is the Z4 which eventually evolved into the A class was designed to operate in multiple. The unions opposed this as it was seen as a way of reducing the number of drivers (despite the Sydney O/P class and the Adelaide H class operating in multiple, in Adelaide for over 50 years by that time). As a result the couplers were never fitted. The B class has essentially the same electrical equipment and could theoretically operate in multiple, and the A and B could theoretically work in multiple with each other. However very few termini could have accommodated A/B or B/B pairs.
re: the extra light at the top of the D1 combino: at least in the Netherlands a rail vehicle has to have three white headlights, and that third light is that same one you see on the top of the Amsterdam Combino trams
love this collab!
A1 still has the tie-down bar for the trolley pole just on top of the windscreen while the A2 doesn't.
Z3 is the MVP for loading and unloading speed. You can't get stuck up the back like all the other classes - because there's a door at the very back, plus I enjoy not having any automated announcements (that one might just be me though). Double doors at the front, where the majority of people prefer to board, is also excellent. Great design IMO, far better than any other for those reasons alone..
W class tram is definitely an S tier.
Great colab guys! This was a very fun video!
The legends are together at last!!!! 🎉
Great video 👍
As someone with an invisible disability that means I have a tendency to bloat and gain weight (it’s a symptom), all trams post Bs are significantly less comfortable
The the well-cushioned, bench style seats make it so much easier to fit in around other passengers and find an angle that works and doesn’t jam into my bum or genitals in a cruel and unusual way
The better stability, and various nooks and corners of the b and z class trams also make it easier to get out of people’s way while standing, but also to do so while keeping close enough to the seats to nab one when someone gets off without having to battle someone speedier who probably doesn’t need it as much
Finally, although they’re hopefuls for wheelchair users, my parents actually find the design of the door handles much easier to grab onto for support while they hoist themselves up the steps, one at a time, so they actually put less weight on their dodgy knees to get in the supposedly more disability friendly models from recent years - so being disability friendly is more a matter of what disability you have and what your needs are
I think the hypothetical b tier models with the combination of door types allowing for wheelchair/pram/shopping trolley users is really the overall winner for addressing a combination of needs
Amazing collab guys
Watching what is possibly the best video on RUclips and low and behold the B3 Class comes up. Fun fact, one of these does actually exist, albeit only in Lego form
it is really cool
Haha
The C2's were leased for the 2006 Melbourne Commonwealth Games, and yes it was an awkward discussion.... Mullhouse owned them, their network was in its infancy, so superfluous to the then requirements.... and I believe the then state government bought them outright.
I'll defend C1 over D class because I truly do despise the D class seating configuration. But then again I also enjoy x'trapolis trains so maybe I just like a bumpy ride. I hate the Siemens trains as well.. hmm. I probably enjoy A and B class the most, but I almost never use the E or C2 class routes so it's hard to form a strong opinion about them. Looking forward to the Gs though. They seem like a nice mix of old and new. Great video guys!
Today, I had to help an old man with a walking frame off an E class due to the slight incline next to the door, which in turn is because of the pivoting bogies often preferred by railfans.
great video!
Some of the earliest level platforms were built in the year 2000-2001 when the 109 tram route was extended from Balwyn to Box Hill! Also the light rail platforms on the Port Melbourne and St Kilda lines were originally not level as they were a bit lower or higher than the tram doors but were modified to be suitable for level boarding in 2000-2001! :)
I would rate the w class restaurant trams S tier! I miss them. Haven’t been on city circle in years so i can’t rate them.
I look forward to the G class! It will be interesting if they use that design to ultimately replace the C/D trams
While the d’s aren’t favourable overall using a d2 on route 6 imo is not optimal given what appears to be lower patronage than other routes and not many low floor stops.
If they were to have built low floor stops on route 19 than it would make sense to concentrate them there. Interestingly enough they were on the 96 at one point a place they were never designed to go 😂
The B3 is almost a M31 tram. M31 is rebuilt M21 trams build by ASEA/Hägglunds that also developed the M25, M28 and M29 that the Z class was built up on.
As a tram commuter, the B Class is by far my favourite. The only time I'll prefer something else is if I have the pram so I have to walk to St Kilda Junction to wait for a D class.
Great video guys! As an American I found all of this very interesting. I was wondering though what happened to that C class at 26:04 like where did the rest of it go?
it bent around into the fence of a property, tends to happen with articulated trams when they derail. well, actually it completely broke through the fence. imagine being the person living in that house, hearing a loud bang and screeching outside and then seeing a tram in your front garden
z3's are my personal favourites
One thing I notice when I ride an A2 tram is that some of them have a footy whistle noise when you pull the stop string or press the stop button which I haven’t heard on any other trams 😂
With the door at the front of the new G class, I know when I take the route 16 or 72 to the end, if the trams use the drop off stop, most of the time the driver will only open the front door, and get everyone out of that door, so that it is harder for a car to mow through people getting off. I do wonder if that door is going to be used the same way if they need to stop and get people off outside of the normal stops.
W8 = S [it's the only tram I can ride since I live in Perth]
Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes christmas has come early and 10 times over
That's how I would pronounce Mulhouse as well (which is probably not correct, but it's close). Also, Mulhouse has a simply gorgeous station
I do love b's and my kids recognise them too. Thanks to the video on the new g class.
My conclusion is, the PTC did better Trams as high floors, and just do low floor sections for and have conductor's on board.
I had the unfortunate task of riding D's down 96 to north Fitzroy for a few years, such hateful vehicles. I think overall low floors suck for buses too. Of course I loved mk1 and mk2 man's so maybe I'm quite biased.
The b's have had a recent bogie replacement scheme instead of testing and rebuilding the 30~ year old units. So they are good to go for a while yet.
The A class tram types can be distinguished between each other quickly by the round trolley pole reel bases on the front which is only on the A1 class trams while only the A1 class trams have abandoned trolley pole mounting points but some A1s have also more recently had this removed! :)
Oh thanks very much that's a much easier way than trying to figure out the different brake systems!
The new seat arrangement on the B class theoretically increased capacity, but it actually decreased capacity in practice. 2, possibly 3 people can stand in the same area that previously seated 4 people. The only way they fit more people is by squashing everyone in like sardines.
I generally like the E class trams but I find 2 things weird:
1) Some seats have a weird popping noise when you lean hard on the seats (I think the seats closest to the doors)
2) No front doors
Another thing to consider is that the interior floor is not completely flat. According to the Australian Quadriplegic Association (aqa.org.au) this puts disembarking wheelchair users at a danger of somersaulting out of their wheelchairs.
Glad its not just me, the seat popping is really annoying, especially with the inertia from the tram accelerating and decelerating meaning it happens over and over.
W class' are I would say A tier
They attract tourists, they arent to functional, but they're iconic. I do like the way they look tho
Great chat
Wait.. is the restaurant tram no longer running?!?!
I reckon the W5-7 and B class trams were too conservative. I understand that you can’t always have the absolute latest technology, however I think we should have got PCC based trams in the 1940s instead of loud and largely wooden trams which were fundamentally similar to the first Ws of the 1920s. The B2s could have been low floor from the beginning (there were actually plans in 1982 and early 1990s) which I think would have been doable.
Basically the Glidus/Schwifty ASOIAF theories podcast but with public transport
I think that roaring sound the D2s make is from the unpowered bogie in the middle
On the D trams, if there's not many people and I don't feel like sitting, I'll just rest my bum on those folded up middle seats or lean against the inside glass.
you guys should totaly do trains. like v line and metro that would be awsome.
Referring to my other comment somewhere about the comfort of riding based on the kind of disability, I have a radically different rating for C2s - they go in the D tier with the other C class - those seats are awful and there’s not nearly enough to grab onto as you move through the carriage
W8 1029 in ball i give it an A I like it a lot
The other not 100% reliable method for A1 vs A2 is the obvious provision of retraction ties for the trolley poles... a small ellipse shape on the front right.
Incredible
The C2 class trams rarely ran on the 109!
I had no idea!