AOP is like Yoshimitsus spin/flash. It creates a panopticon effect, where you constantly have to keep the moves in the back of your mind, which you also mention in the video, gives the moves an unseen value in the form of mental plus frames, where they "should've" been minus, which is very beneficial. League of Legends has the same problem with permanently invisible champions like Evelynn, and they're also hated.
Flash is way more intuitive to launch punnish, bait out, ect. Pressing your regular launcher when seing aop whiff usually results in the move whiffing, connecting but not launching cause of some strange floating state that i dont even understand.
@@ParkourGripthat's not really true. The only time she's in a float state is after AOP 3+4, or if she jumps or rolls. Otherwise any launcher that hits AOP hits her in a standing state.
@@enderborn9209 nobody is complainig about nerfing AOP, people are complaining about flash. I don't think my statement is cluless whatsoever. I've played Tekken for a long time in tournaments and Flash in T8 is worse than AOP. AOP cannot hit me just by dashing forward, she HAS to do a move. Both are great mindfucks, I just think Flash is definately worse.
Great video. Great discussion and amazing editing. I found the part about Xaoi Yu players needing to manage the emotions of their opponents especially poignant. The more I play tekken, the more I understand that the game is much more than mechanics, frame data, and technical skill. Reading your opponent, making them hesitate and second guess, frustrating them into making mistakes, that's the mental game. Every character can do it, but Xaoi Yu was designed for it. As you pointed out, there is counterplay to AOP, and there is a reason we rarely see Xaoi Yu represented at the highest level despite her reputation. Akuma had a horrible reputation and low usage rate, and won the world tour twice, and several tournaments. And there are several very strong Xaoi Yu players in this world that won majors with T7 Xaoi, universally considered weaker than T8. These are facts. And yet going down this comment section people disagree with you, and present incorrect information on AOPs lack of counterplay. Her mental damage wildly exceeds her actual effectiveness as a character. And to be clear im not a ling downplayer. She's very strong in T8. But there are other characters in that game who are more performant (and also more popular) who recieve far less vitriol.
Lesson I've learned: people don't actually like when the game is actually interactive. The presence of things that make you have to alter your pre-planned strategy are the things people hate the most. Signed, team land destruction/ mill/discard
"What something objectively does is seldom as memorable as what it subjectively makes you feel" brilliant sentence that honestly lies at the heart of so, so many topics of fighting game (and honestly most competitive games) design. For a while I've been positing that "character balance is more about spectacle than it is about actual fairness", but it goes so much deeper than that. Even the dreaded topic of motion inputs and executional difficulty in old vs new fighting games mostly comes down to the perception of fighting games being difficult to learn among non-fgc crowd much more than to their actual difficulty.
I used to think the same way until Happy Chaos was introduced in GGST. A player with good execution, not neccesarily a good player, could lock you down for the entire game with little counterplay in neutral and no counterplay in the corner. Just true blockstrings until you die from chip damage. It's definitely true that in most games, there's counterplay to everything. SF6 for example is a game where every character has all the tools they need to counter their opponent's approach and some moves can be annoying if you don't know their counterplay or can't react fast enough to them (Ken's H Dragonlash for example can be jabbed and leads into juggle combo, but you won't see anyone doing that below Diamond 3). That said, some characters in other games definitely deserve all the hate
My favorite versions of Counterspell are the ones that let your opponent spend mana to stop it. Especially if you counter a spell that produces more mana, like Dark Ritual
Counterspells suck because of the mentality behind it. Why are you stopping me from doing my thing? Don't you have a cool thing you want to doing that would be more interesting than shutting down someone else? As opposed to Tekken, which is specifically about blocking, punishing, anticipating, and the infamous side-step.
@@VenzyntRoleplay hey man, I ran those spells in a Izzet deck. Using a counter powered up my Nivix Cyclops, so my opponents would be even more discouraged from attacking. Then on my turn I'd burn their creatures with instants and power up the cyclops even more using Titan Strength.
I love the 2 black counter spell, "Dashed Hopes" (or something like that) because it allows the opponent spend 5 life to override it. This allows some creative baits like Dashed Hopes into lightning bolt to down a greedy 8 life opponent.
@@VenzyntRoleplay this is most autopilot rdw mindset i've ever seen, throwing a fit because someone didn't just turn all their cards sideways in their combat and actually left a creature standing to _block_
Amazing concept for the video; the repitition made the insights gained from juxtaposing Xiaoyu and Counterspell feel almost profound, even despite the subject(s) lol Really cool stuff!!
Reading this makes me very glad. I was very excited to write the "rhyming" parts, but also apprehensive- Hard to escape the feeling that people would find it very tedious.
What? CCGs were an analogy for FGs for like decades. Ever read David Sirlin's Playing to Win? He also made a card game and a fighting game in the same universe.
I would like to add that most exclusively newer players dislike Counterspells. They rarely mention that the alternative is everyone just topdecks gas all the time and there are no answers.
Ling Xiaoyu is a character specialist..not something you pickup and start winning, why most will drop her. Hard work and dedication to a character like Ling pays off, if your patient enough to see it through.
Now that your travels have let you aside this little soapbox, may I suggest you take a gander on the rest of the channel? There is a lot of good FGC content to be found.
Even though players tend to complain about control, when played in a mirror match, it can be amazing to watch. One game that always comes to mind is, the Kaladesh Pro Tour Finals between Shota Yasooka and Carlos Romão. It’s a masterful showcase of a more classical take on Control, where both players try to build their resources and close out the game by playing a huge threat, while at the same time, trying to negate their opponent from doing the same.
I'm still working on stuff! But it takes time, sometimes longer than other times. Most recently I did a video for @TheoryFighter, though it is a bit different than my usual output.
As a fighting game player with access to a below average laptop and aging switch, I think its safe to say that my choices in game are limited. When I looked to play Fighting Games, without knowledge of Fightcade, I went to switch sales and discovered Skullgirls for dirt cheap. And I think playing Skullgirls on switch is the absolute best way to start, because the only way to find matches is discord because so few play, and thus communicate with others. With everyone else also playing on the only thing available to them, its mostly beginner to mid range players that play, and thus has served as my jumping off point for TFG. Im not sure how relevant this comment is to the video, but I felt compelled to share
Fighting games are community built, community run, and community enjoyed. The crux of fighting games are that you play with friends or rivals, and nobody wants to play against a CPU. Whether it be a meme mirror match or an extremely close game between even opponents, isn't that making friends?
@@larrydupp3988 It's true that fighting games are a lot more fun with friends (especially over voice chat), but your line about FGs "only" being fun if youre making friends just felt really wrong to me. I dont know about you but the deconstruction of how a fight works is just really appealing to me, you get to theorycraft gameplans, tech, and other stuff and test how it works against real people. In that case I'm not really trying to "make friends", just having fun with the game itself. Or maybe I'm being too pedantic, in that case I apologize.
@@sleepfgc No, you're not being pedantic, I think I am overgeneralizing a lot of what makes fighting games unique in the artform of video games, but personally, when I theorycraft combos, routing, planning on counterpicks and more, the most excited I am for it all is to share it with other people, and see what thoughts and criticisms they have to help me improve. I think I am coming at this from an angle of joy found in the comraderie, while your joy is found in the game itself. Thank you for the apology though, it's appreciated!
I thought Steve is the blue character, he's the _Counter_ hit guy after all Ling is more akin to a prison card like Chalice of the Void, something that flat out nullify some of the opponent's moves just by pasively being there
In an ocean of videos starting with the words "coming up:" in the corner while a 30-second clip from 4 minutes into the same 10-minute video plays, here you are with an actual intro that is as well thought out as the rest of the video. Well done
Excellent video and topic. Only real critique here being the sketchbook-esque styling of the clips and anything with text was genuinely grating to look at and cause me a headache
ah that's unfortunate, I personally quite liked the stylistic choice, do you think it would have been less grating for you if the filter was less gaussian (more painterly) and animated slower? say 6-8fps instead of what looked close to 20fps?
@@alexonstott4954 I thought about it as I was watching the greenscreened tekken gameplay segments and realised I'm actually not sure how I would apply such a filter over them; problem being the gameplay should be shown at 60fps or 30fps to retain comfortable readability. best compromise I can think of is to put the captured gameplay [keyed out as in this video] on a fully transparent background and give it a full 30fps filter, then layer that _on top of_ the foundational blank canvas layer this video already uses, but with the aforementioned 6-8fps painterly filter (probably 6 so it matches 1/5 to the gameplay, but experimenting would be necessary to figure out whether the dissonance of 8fps might improve the feel).
Another intricacy i want to note between a creature getting bolted and countered is that you CAN save the minion if you can increase their health or buff them in some way to protect from the damage (as long as you have the resources necesarry). A counter spell can only be responded to by either another counter spell or an effect that explicitly forbids countering. There are generally less options available to most magic colors in the counter situation than in the lightning bolt situation.
I loved this video. I used to play control competitively and I felt the social commentary in my soul. In MTG, control is usually not competitively relevant but it is a boogey man. I love the example you used from MTG playtesting. Countering a Llanowar elves is wildly inefficient and a borderline bad play. The Bolt is only 1 mana and achieves the same thing, but it FEELS better for the opp. Thats subversive play in a nutshell. I personally love subversive play in competitive games because it teaches PATIENCE. I also like the bit about Blue decks and Ling being objectively mid but subjectively awful.
God. I love rubbish‘s style. Can you even still call that merely editing? Its insane, unique artstyles , playful animations… every video rubbish put out is a work if love and long work nd its provided for free. Such a gem.
As a Xiaoyu main that’s in Fujin, I picked her up and rose without looking any strats up. I dunno how to feel about this video lol. I just thought her cancels into transitions and mobility was saucy.
I love the structure of this video, subbed. BTW, as someone who does not play blue in magic, I don't mind most blue things, if I can make the game faster, you should be able to make it slower
Subversion for its own sake is a better decision than making a medium intuitively understood- even if subversion can be harmful to the artwork. The artists and creators are allowed to pertake in creative liberties that arent as easily replicated by future design. An example of subversive design that is welcomed by tekken players is Bryan Fury. He has a unique taint mechanic but gameplay design is to use counterhit tools that net high value with low commitment. This playstyle also removes agency from the opponent but at a tolerable level generally that only higher level players complain about. But there is not a character like Bryan who lacks fundamental strengths in order to amplify certain aspects (i.e black deck). Whereas the negatives of playing xiaoyu are overlooked because a majority of the population cannot exploit these weaknesses to begin with. The only difference is that xiaoyu removes offensive agency that seems more natural to the average player whereas Bryan strictly operates in the randomness of neutral to begin with. The main point is that these characters are unique and operate on the idea of subversion; however the inverse of making a character intuitive to interact with and understand is potentially more problematic. A key example of this is the release of Leroy in Tekken 7, Leroy's kit was practically a mixture of previous designs and mixed together for the sake of efficiency and simplicity. It was clear that his design was the perversion of intuitiveness, attempting to construct a strong character in a rational sense instead of use their creative liberty and ingenuity. Even Kunimitsu in Tekken 7 stated by Harada was supposedly a stance character - hence the blue and red flames on the swords, reduced to a poking character with ridiculously strong tracking. Her design left mixed reactions and feelings towards the player base. The originals are still extremely popular - more often than not as opposed to the DLC and newcomers. TLDR; appeasing to everyone makes art lame
I think fundamentally people hate when things feel unfair (understandable). If a counter strategy is not obvious and you have no one to teach you, it can feel unfair even if it objectively is not unfair. Some kind of advanced training packs could help a lot here i think. I agree with you that asymmetry is cool and interesting and balance through symmetry makes things booooring. This is why i never play e4 in chess. Too many mirrored games with 10-20 moves of theory that end in a draw.
Excellent video. Appreciated the mirrored details in the first half. I don't know if the ultimate conclusion should be taken to heart, as Xiaoyu cannot so easily be separated from Tekken or her playstyle, but I don't have a better suggestion. This is a problem caused by the intersection of circumstances and human tendencies, so we'd need a tutorial or story fight akin to Skullgirls' Peacock where players are forced to adapt to Xiaoyu's stance. No matter what, the medicine will be bitter.
As a Mishima player, I'm supposed to hate Xiaoyu's (or anyone, apparently), but honestly I can't bring myself to. She's a really fun character to play against for me because it makes me rethink my own kit and consider unorthodox routes to get my victory condition. I have a sorta similar experience with Zafina's kit or other stances in general. Sometimes it is frustrating, but it's even more satisfying figuring out ways to overcome it.
The impact of perception and expectation is insane. I don’t play MTG but I do play Yugioh, and in Yugioh you more or less constantly expect any given play to get stuffed in a variety of ways, and the name of the game is trying to get your opponent to use up their tools that threaten your goals. Hearing that people complain about Magic cards that say 'No' was wild to me because Yugioh is full of saying 'No' to eachother until you run out of ways to say it. But since in Yugioh you fully expect it as just how the game works, it's not particularly annoying.
Well I'm convinced. I don't play tekken and I don't plan to, but I am already sharpening my pitchfork to crucify Ling Xiaoyu. I think my hatred for nullification mechanics stems from the 2500+ hours I spent as a Jäger main in rainbow six siege, an operator whose claim to fame was looking at whatever the attackers bring along and saying "no"
I think this would be less of a problem if there was a more intuitive way to deal with AOP, or if it at the very least had its counters more appropriately communicated by the game's systems. The difference between AOP and any other defensive option in Tekken is that it just shuts down so much, while also not having a clear downside communicated to the player. This runs counter to most of Tekken's moves having some sort of risky hard counter (low/high crushes, punch parries, launch punishing power lows, big evasive launchers being super minus, etc). Moves like AOP and RLX tend to give the impression that they have extremely disjointed risk/reward because of the fact they don't have a clear hard counter that becomes immediately apparent to the player (and in the case of RLX, you only get a float when you do punish it, so your combo does less damage). It's certainly not intuitive to a lot of people that you have to know if you have a move that hits arbitrarily low enough to smack ling out of her AOP, and that a lot of moves that do intuitively hit low enough are often too slow to be practical to use. Its a very hard to intuit mindgame at first and it doesn't really get any better for the characters who can't deal with it that well. This is only exacerbated due to Tekken 8's systems covering for the deliberate trade off having these moves incurs of weaker offense, so its really not hard to see why its way easier to hate on the move than it is to engage with it like any other move.
Dude, if this was true, why not address steve's aggression and various other, obviously much more threatening and less read dependant moves compared to ling xiaoyu? Do you know that not many people even know that you can interrupt lars very easily between transitions using hopkicks (thats what I use anyways)? nothing in tekken 8 is clearly communicated compared to t7, so why do you need a clear indicator for aop?
@@KyeCreates The thing about the things you bring up here is that even though they aren't really visually communicated in a match, they're still communicated through frame data. A lot of people may not know about interrupting Lars transitions, but you still have a reasonable and (somewhat) intuitive way of finding a response or counter by using training mode. Steve's aggression is similar in that, even though he may still have his turn, he usually limits his options after if he goes into DCK or whatever other stance he usually transitions into. Now I'm not gonna say these things also can't be communicated better, because there's a lot of really punishable stuff that doesn't look all that punishable due to the lack of any hitstop or unique animations to tell the defender "hey, your opponent just fucked up! kill em!", but at the very least a player is more likely to figure it out through experimenting frame data and the like without any extra arbitrary conditions that are needed. AOP and RLX are different in this regard because the best options are extremely specific or impractical. It's not that they're crazy that's the problem, its more that the actual solution is so niche, not told by the game's own mechanics, and inconsistent in their successful applications that its not hard to see why people hate on those two stances so much. Did you know Kazuya df1 will hit Eddy out of RLX but not ling out of AOP? Its inconsistencies like that that make those moves annoying to a lot of people.
Kazuya df1 will hit ling even out of aop duck btw. But you are right, it is kinda ambigious what moves can and can not hit aop. It is also ambigious what moves track to left and what track to right. Its the same thing. If you want to catch someone stepping to right, use a move that tracks there. If you want to catch someone using aop, use a low or a mid with a large hitbox.
@@Rius9106 Ah, my bad. I've had it whiff in some scenarios, I guess it mightve been out of the range where it would consistently hit when I've had it whiff on me.
Xiaoyu is for furries so do not bully them please just don't play them, walk towards them and feed them up to high ranks , I still walk towards them and I'm Tekken God. Xiouyi furries need help and this is am outlet
I like this visual effect you put over your video, but would love if you cut out the cards for us to read the texts. I dont know much about magic, only played yugioh a sh*tton but i was so curious haha
I'm really glad you touched on the "social burden" of playing control. A few months ago I was practicing a top tier control deck at my locals with the hopes of taking it to the regionals. While I inherently enjoy winning, the negative reactions of the people around me killed the joy of playing my deck. I get that I'm not responsible for their mentality when playing the game, but it sapped the joy of winning from me. So I stopped playing control.
Nah, she's fine, there's a big difference between the mechanics people love to cry about and the kind people actually quit over, and running into the occasional ling in ladder isn't making people quit. Also, the huge outcry now is because people hope if they complain enough now, the character might get nerfed and they won't have to deal with learning the counterplay. You nerf any character or mechanic bc people complain about it online and you end up negotiating with terrorists, they'll just ask for more. No, just give people time, they'll learn to adapt, and eventually they'll find something new to complain about and loudly claim will make them quit Tekken.
Was thinking about this weeks later (thats how good it is) and the more I think about it the more I disagree with the conclusion (or "question?") you pose at the end. Your argument is that essentially the character should be (effectively) deleted because no one is having fun. Opponent's arent having fun. And even the Ling players arent having fun because they are dealing with vitriol from the community. But clearly we don't hate it enough to NOT play the character 😂. Taking away what makes her special is removing what makes the character unique and takes the choice away from players who can already choose to play a different character if they want. But we dont because we ultimately like playing blue. And removing her ability to do what she does is effectively deleting the character, even if she remains in the game in name/appearance only. That would be really sad to see. 😢 Again, great video. Truly enjoyed even if I disagree.
I think that question is what lies at the heart of the character. What level of utilitarian design should game developers exercise? Is the idea of Ling that she is supposed to be a tricky and at times obnoxious hinderance until the player learns how to deal with her, etc? While I would personally always opt for Lings design to stay as is, I do think there is a difference between tweaking her mechanical makeup and removing it entirely. Undoubtedly still a difficult proposition to manage though. Thanks for watching!
Another thought-provoking video! Well done! It pains me to think that "Let it rock" is falling out of favor because of societal and technological shifts, but that's just business.
I'd see these types of gameplay interactions going over better with the general public, if after a loss these games would explain the idea behind them and some basic counter play. Instead of them being immediately frustrated and influenced by the twitter
People can find the solution in the lab. It's not hard to set up. And in T8, you can literally go re-play the match to see what would work in that scenario. Text on a screen after getting angry isn't going to teach the player anything. Going through the effort of setting up the lab scenario and feeling that natural 'ah-ha' will better commit your brain to the knowledge.
I can understand, for most casual players they do not have the time required to work this out, and more importantly they want their small amount of time playing the game to be fun and feel fair. If you wanted Xiaoyu to remain the same way she currently is you would probably have to dedicate some effort to every character, much like how Basically a very character in SF has some kind of way of dealing with fireballs. It would mean that every character would need a move that is a wide enough sweep that if a player was expecting sidestep phoenix they could just hit with the sweep get knockdown into oki and then follow up with a brutal combo that dumpsters Xiaoyu.
23:21 you said "subversion for subversion's sake" and I got PTSD flashbacks to Last Jedi. Good video btw, was just talking to a friend the other day about "interactivity" being important to a multiplayer experience
AOP is fine, Ling usually does low damage and whiners will cry for nerfs until he has to full launch you 4 times to win. As always the best characters will have good neutral play and do enough damage to end your life in 2 good reads. At top play its harder to fool players, the fewer times you have to win the mind game to win the better. Ling AOP being being tricky isn't an enduring advantage. Ling will probably never win anything important in T8 history.
Note that Counterspell is no longer legal in Standard format (the most common and most casual format). There are other counter-spell cards, but they are either more expensive to play in terms of resources, or they are more restrictive in their ability to counter than brandname Counterspell.
@@HQRubbishOh yeah definitely. No need to go into 30 years of MTG history. Legacy magic formats are definitely the Super Turbo of MTG where people reminisce about "the good old days" while forgetting about all the absolutely broken stuff.
The idea of making Xiaoyu weak early on a Tekken sequel's lifespan @ 29:25 . I guess that's what Tekken Project is doing for Eddy. Eddy feels so bad when you only evaluate the moves he's had from previous games; compare their properties in T8 and in the prequels. Are the developers afraid of rebuilding, reimagining Eddy Gordo as a strong, as...maybe an upper mid tier DLC character at launch (i.e. his launch as a DLC)??? Regardless of how high or low Eddy is in anybody's tier list, I don't think right now it's fair for the developers if I put the blame on Eddy for my inabilities in reaching God of Destruction, for my failures at local tournaments. I still have a lot room to improve. A buttload of match up facts to learn and relearn(geez...sometimes I hate it when something I have memorized for many years gets a minor, kinda imperceptible change). So yeah, I guess I should git gud while I wait for Eddy buffs. If I eventually reached a point where I felt the character limited my potential, at least my fundamentals would've been solid already by that point.
Changing Xiaoyu to be less "blue" might shift some of the general hate away from her, but people are always going to hate on something, especially online. I rarely engage with the online Tekken community outside of actually playing the game because people complain and whine about any little thing - these are mostly lower skilled players who don't know what they're doing and won't put in the effort to learn. Salt also generally comes from losing, and if people don't learn to counter Xiaoyu, they'll lose to her more often, and she will therefore generate more salt. Is it annoying that I have to change my playstyle to counter Xiaoyu specifically? Yes, but that's part of the game. This video provided some interesting info and ideas on interactivity in games, but I disagree with the conclusion because I believe there are some things that people should just deal with.
Its funny because in 8 Ling struggles against absolute mashy and aggro characters. (And unfortunately most of the roster are obnoxiously mashy and aggro) if the person just straight up doesnt respect ling you get ran over because of the things/playstyles tekken 8 encourages.
I have a bit of an issue with your analysis of counter spells Vs instant removal as it does not consider things such as enter battlefield effects and effects that benefit from a creature entering the battlefield. There is a huge difference between preventing a card from entering play and letting it enter then removing it. Also, I think comparison is inherently flawed as counter spells have a resource management, no I don't mean mana. I mean card advantage. You cannot stuff your deck full of 30 counter spells and 30 lands. You will run out of cards in your hand, you will run out of counter spells eventually in your library. Xiaoyu on the other hand can use AOP however many times she wants with minimal risk, as most options that work on AOP are low reward whilst Xiaoyu typically gets huge reward if AOP works. That's another thing that should have been talked about, risk Vs reward. The risk of wasting a counter spell against a less impactful card when the opponent has a game ender is PAINFUL whilst getting hit by Kazuya DF3 cause you AOP'd thinking he'd do one his key moves that gets countered fully by AOP just feels like "ah dang it" In general, I was excited to see how this video pans out because I'm an avid hater of Xiaoyu and avid enjoyer of MTG, but I came away really confused at to why this video was this long when it could be summed up as "Xiaoyu and Blue makes people feel like they aren't playing the game, and that leads to them being unfun to play against, and that leads to people being toxic" I highly recommend rereading this script, because there is a lot of fluff here that could have been removed.
@@HQRubbish never said you were, but when providing information for a comparison which takes up half the video you'd think you'd do what you can to make sure the comparison works
played mtg for 16 yrs and competitvely for 11 and generally tourney wise no one rlly cares about control the general annoyance amongst top play is normally whatever is busted in the meta, been playing tk since the start of the year and am tk king ling and honestly think shes fine and find more ppl complain about drag (the meta) ppl just need to lab or learn how to play against match ups when it comes to both games tho and in tk u have all the answers dont even need to sideboard its just knowing when to place your answers/threats also i think xiaoyu is like a mana tithe but when ppl dont know the match up it feels like u played a white daze out of no where
I think you bring up some really interesting points about the nature of legacy game design in an online era. However, the solution is not to axe Xiaoyu. Remember that the seemingly "vast majority of the playerbase whom hate Xiaoyu" will be skewed by the human tendency to be more vocal about complaints than praise, especially online. Scrubs will be scrubs. If we remove Xiaoyu from the game, these players will simply find the next boogeyman to complain about. Subversive design can be a magnet for these complaints, but it is not the source. These players complain because at a fundamental level, they are incapable of swallowing their pride and admitting they were beaten by a strategy they were unprepared for; they instead point to some excuse, in this case Xiaoyu being "cheap" or "broken" or "toxic," in order to preserve their ego. Removal of certain design choices to appease scrubs will make the game worse for everybody in the long run. It is not the responsibility of designers or players to make scrubs feel better. The responsibility is on scrubs to adopt better mindsets, and if they refuse to do so, then everybody else should be laughing them out the door.
While I do understand this sentiment and (at least to a point) tend to agree. I do think it is easy to dig yourself into a position of "superiority" for lack of better wording visavi this scrub argument. Design decisions in games can be more or less successful without having to fall back on detractors being gatekept by skill issues. While I don't personally agree with people who find Ling to be "bullshit", I think it is important to think about what makes that attitude occur- Especially if it said attitude happens to be recurring over vast stretches of times within (at least seemingly) a majority of players. Does that alone automatically means the design ought to change? Perhaps not, but lots of things are bad design for the intended audience, even if there are some amount of people who will as statistical outliers end up enjoying it. Thanks for watching.
i get that you wanted visual consistency, but making text and details fuzzy kinda just takes me out of the visual aspect of the video, otherwise, i like the content and everything you have to say made sense. i hope to see more
Counter spells are an outlier scenario within magic where players who claim counters are unfun and stop gameplay are genuinely scrubs who lack understanding. The actual unfun and agency removing gameplay mechanic in magic is Stax, and I say this as an avid cedh player used to the most degenerate gameplay possible. Stax as a few situational cards is fine, but an entire deck dedicated to it is far far worse than any control matchup in 1v1 formats.
While I appreciate the point of the video, I think it misses the point of "is this too much?". The main issue and solution presented seems to be a lack of familiarity which is a common complaint. But we're also at a point where Xiaoyu has some of the strongest mixup in the game if you don't check her. Xiaoyu has became too rounded and is strong in ways which run counter to "the design". If blue was running an aggro deck where each creature also had the ability to tap to counterspell, one might reasonably question the design and balance of the cards. Another culprit could be Yoshimitsu with notably spin in mind. At the highest level of play, Yoshimitsu's spin completely nullifies Lidia's heaven and earth stance, in all situations except for heat smash on block. You can't delay your options or choose moves to track it, you just don't do it. Not only is it not fun, it's incredibly strong and completely invalidates the uniqueness and assymmetry of some characters. A DP is strong but it has counterplay, whereas this just cuts part of the game out. Basically Xiaoyu's AoP is fine but fuck Yoshi.
@@HQRubbish No, but it's only in T8 where we have people like Knee joining the complaints (AFAIK). Either way, my comment was just an excuse to complain about Yoshi 🙏
I believe everyone who's kicking your butt in a game is annoying. I think it is, when you take a step back, ridiculous to consider any particular character any more annoying than any other. If you really believe that, is it impossible for you to train for fighting that one character? Can you not dedicate some time to learning how to punish that character, how to deny them their tricks, to even learn how to play them so you understand what they want and when? I really believe any form of annoyance on a character stems from a complete lack of willingness to learn anything other than general strategy, and that's unfortunate. Of course this is ignoring actual balancing issues, I do believe characters can be too strong and prefer when a game's power level as a whole is on the lower side, but very few amount of character strengths completely outweigh their weaknesses. Learn how to fight them. Train. Become a better fighter tomorrow than you are today. That's what I love doing more than anything.
AOP is like Yoshimitsus spin/flash. It creates a panopticon effect, where you constantly have to keep the moves in the back of your mind, which you also mention in the video, gives the moves an unseen value in the form of mental plus frames, where they "should've" been minus, which is very beneficial. League of Legends has the same problem with permanently invisible champions like Evelynn, and they're also hated.
Flash is so much worse, just moving can get you juggled whereas AOP you can do SOME moves to counter it. I see your point though
@@303Smilezzz with all due respect, what a clueless statement
Flash is way more intuitive to launch punnish, bait out, ect. Pressing your regular launcher when seing aop whiff usually results in the move whiffing, connecting but not launching cause of some strange floating state that i dont even understand.
@@ParkourGripthat's not really true. The only time she's in a float state is after AOP 3+4, or if she jumps or rolls. Otherwise any launcher that hits AOP hits her in a standing state.
@@enderborn9209 nobody is complainig about nerfing AOP, people are complaining about flash. I don't think my statement is cluless whatsoever. I've played Tekken for a long time in tournaments and Flash in T8 is worse than AOP. AOP cannot hit me just by dashing forward, she HAS to do a move. Both are great mindfucks, I just think Flash is definately worse.
Great video. Great discussion and amazing editing.
I found the part about Xaoi Yu players needing to manage the emotions of their opponents especially poignant. The more I play tekken, the more I understand that the game is much more than mechanics, frame data, and technical skill. Reading your opponent, making them hesitate and second guess, frustrating them into making mistakes, that's the mental game. Every character can do it, but Xaoi Yu was designed for it.
As you pointed out, there is counterplay to AOP, and there is a reason we rarely see Xaoi Yu represented at the highest level despite her reputation. Akuma had a horrible reputation and low usage rate, and won the world tour twice, and several tournaments. And there are several very strong Xaoi Yu players in this world that won majors with T7 Xaoi, universally considered weaker than T8. These are facts. And yet going down this comment section people disagree with you, and present incorrect information on AOPs lack of counterplay. Her mental damage wildly exceeds her actual effectiveness as a character.
And to be clear im not a ling downplayer. She's very strong in T8. But there are other characters in that game who are more performant (and also more popular) who recieve far less vitriol.
They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
Yeah, aop is kinda fun to fight against. Ling in heat is not lol
@@brandonbowers3703 *Xiao Yu
Can we talk about your editing style? it's so pleasing and it maintains visual consistency throughout the video. i love it❤
Lesson I've learned: people don't actually like when the game is actually interactive. The presence of things that make you have to alter your pre-planned strategy are the things people hate the most.
Signed, team land destruction/ mill/discard
Magic was such a good comparison. Everyone who has played magic and tekken immediately gets it.
god dude your channel is so immensely underrated, you're like if HORSES was into fighting games and I fucking love it so much.
If horses were into fighting games they would probably play on leverless with big buttons for their hooves which wouldn’t be what rubbish is into
"What something objectively does is seldom as memorable as what it subjectively makes you feel"
brilliant sentence that honestly lies at the heart of so, so many topics of fighting game (and honestly most competitive games) design. For a while I've been positing that "character balance is more about spectacle than it is about actual fairness", but it goes so much deeper than that. Even the dreaded topic of motion inputs and executional difficulty in old vs new fighting games mostly comes down to the perception of fighting games being difficult to learn among non-fgc crowd much more than to their actual difficulty.
I used to think the same way until Happy Chaos was introduced in GGST. A player with good execution, not neccesarily a good player, could lock you down for the entire game with little counterplay in neutral and no counterplay in the corner. Just true blockstrings until you die from chip damage.
It's definitely true that in most games, there's counterplay to everything. SF6 for example is a game where every character has all the tools they need to counter their opponent's approach and some moves can be annoying if you don't know their counterplay or can't react fast enough to them (Ken's H Dragonlash for example can be jabbed and leads into juggle combo, but you won't see anyone doing that below Diamond 3).
That said, some characters in other games definitely deserve all the hate
My favorite versions of Counterspell are the ones that let your opponent spend mana to stop it. Especially if you counter a spell that produces more mana, like Dark Ritual
Counterspells suck because of the mentality behind it. Why are you stopping me from doing my thing? Don't you have a cool thing you want to doing that would be more interesting than shutting down someone else? As opposed to Tekken, which is specifically about blocking, punishing, anticipating, and the infamous side-step.
@@VenzyntRoleplay hey man, I ran those spells in a Izzet deck. Using a counter powered up my Nivix Cyclops, so my opponents would be even more discouraged from attacking. Then on my turn I'd burn their creatures with instants and power up the cyclops even more using Titan Strength.
I love the 2 black counter spell, "Dashed Hopes" (or something like that) because it allows the opponent spend 5 life to override it. This allows some creative baits like Dashed Hopes into lightning bolt to down a greedy 8 life opponent.
These are trash
@@VenzyntRoleplay this is most autopilot rdw mindset i've ever seen, throwing a fit because someone didn't just turn all their cards sideways in their combat and actually left a creature standing to _block_
Amazing concept for the video; the repitition made the insights gained from juxtaposing Xiaoyu and Counterspell feel almost profound, even despite the subject(s) lol
Really cool stuff!!
Subject is game design which can, as any subject, be profound.
Reading this makes me very glad. I was very excited to write the "rhyming" parts, but also apprehensive- Hard to escape the feeling that people would find it very tedious.
Never in my life would I thought I would see tekken and magic in the same video.
lol I feel you
Sajam often talks about MtG.
What? CCGs were an analogy for FGs for like decades. Ever read David Sirlin's Playing to Win? He also made a card game and a fighting game in the same universe.
I would like to add that most exclusively newer players dislike Counterspells. They rarely mention that the alternative is everyone just topdecks gas all the time and there are no answers.
Ling Xiaoyu is a character specialist..not something you pickup and start winning, why most will drop her.
Hard work and dedication to a character like Ling pays off, if your patient enough to see it through.
oh hell yeah a video essay about the FGC AND Magic: the gathering? the algorithm knows me well
Now that your travels have let you aside this little soapbox, may I suggest you take a gander on the rest of the channel? There is a lot of good FGC content to be found.
Even though players tend to complain about control, when played in a mirror match, it can be amazing to watch. One game that always comes to mind is, the Kaladesh Pro Tour Finals between Shota Yasooka and Carlos Romão. It’s a masterful showcase of a more classical take on Control, where both players try to build their resources and close out the game by playing a huge threat, while at the same time, trying to negate their opponent from doing the same.
Love the video. Disagree with the conclusion. Tekken isnt Tekken without Xiaoyu, and Xiaoyu isn't Xiaoyu if she isn't "blue".
I hope you keep making these essays. I know the views went down since the baiken and tag 2 ones, but I was blown away by these last couple
I'm still working on stuff! But it takes time, sometimes longer than other times.
Most recently I did a video for @TheoryFighter, though it is a bit different than my usual output.
That thumbnail is glorious and I can't wait to watch the video
This makes me wanna pull a Drake on Xiaoyu
As a fighting game player with access to a below average laptop and aging switch, I think its safe to say that my choices in game are limited. When I looked to play Fighting Games, without knowledge of Fightcade, I went to switch sales and discovered Skullgirls for dirt cheap. And I think playing Skullgirls on switch is the absolute best way to start, because the only way to find matches is discord because so few play, and thus communicate with others. With everyone else also playing on the only thing available to them, its mostly beginner to mid range players that play, and thus has served as my jumping off point for TFG. Im not sure how relevant this comment is to the video, but I felt compelled to share
What the heck am I saying of course this is relevant. Fighting games are only fun if you make friends while playing them
@@larrydupp3988What...? Fighting games are much more than just making friends 😅
Fighting games are community built, community run, and community enjoyed. The crux of fighting games are that you play with friends or rivals, and nobody wants to play against a CPU. Whether it be a meme mirror match or an extremely close game between even opponents, isn't that making friends?
@@larrydupp3988 It's true that fighting games are a lot more fun with friends (especially over voice chat), but your line about FGs "only" being fun if youre making friends just felt really wrong to me.
I dont know about you but the deconstruction of how a fight works is just really appealing to me, you get to theorycraft gameplans, tech, and other stuff and test how it works against real people. In that case I'm not really trying to "make friends", just having fun with the game itself.
Or maybe I'm being too pedantic, in that case I apologize.
@@sleepfgc No, you're not being pedantic, I think I am overgeneralizing a lot of what makes fighting games unique in the artform of video games, but personally, when I theorycraft combos, routing, planning on counterpicks and more, the most excited I am for it all is to share it with other people, and see what thoughts and criticisms they have to help me improve. I think I am coming at this from an angle of joy found in the comraderie, while your joy is found in the game itself. Thank you for the apology though, it's appreciated!
I thought Steve is the blue character, he's the _Counter_ hit guy after all
Ling is more akin to a prison card like Chalice of the Void, something that flat out nullify some of the opponent's moves just by pasively being there
I’m excited every time I see a new video drop. Excellent work, as always. 🖤
In an ocean of videos starting with the words "coming up:" in the corner while a 30-second clip from 4 minutes into the same 10-minute video plays, here you are with an actual intro that is as well thought out as the rest of the video. Well done
Whenever I see one of your videos pop up in my feed I pop off, genuinely one of the most underrated creators on the platform
Excellent video and topic. Only real critique here being the sketchbook-esque styling of the clips and anything with text was genuinely grating to look at and cause me a headache
ah that's unfortunate, I personally quite liked the stylistic choice, do you think it would have been less grating for you if the filter was less gaussian (more painterly) and animated slower? say 6-8fps instead of what looked close to 20fps?
@@FerousFolly I like the style as well, but I also think it would look better with the changes you suggested
@@alexonstott4954 I thought about it as I was watching the greenscreened tekken gameplay segments and realised I'm actually not sure how I would apply such a filter over them; problem being the gameplay should be shown at 60fps or 30fps to retain comfortable readability.
best compromise I can think of is to put the captured gameplay [keyed out as in this video] on a fully transparent background and give it a full 30fps filter, then layer that _on top of_ the foundational blank canvas layer this video already uses, but with the aforementioned 6-8fps painterly filter (probably 6 so it matches 1/5 to the gameplay, but experimenting would be necessary to figure out whether the dissonance of 8fps might improve the feel).
10:27 oh my god the little touch of putting xiaoyu into yoshi's med stance hold to look at the screen, i'm dying
She settle down to learn how to fuck around.
Another intricacy i want to note between a creature getting bolted and countered is that you CAN save the minion if you can increase their health or buff them in some way to protect from the damage (as long as you have the resources necesarry). A counter spell can only be responded to by either another counter spell or an effect that explicitly forbids countering. There are generally less options available to most magic colors in the counter situation than in the lightning bolt situation.
I loved this video. I used to play control competitively and I felt the social commentary in my soul. In MTG, control is usually not competitively relevant but it is a boogey man. I love the example you used from MTG playtesting. Countering a Llanowar elves is wildly inefficient and a borderline bad play. The Bolt is only 1 mana and achieves the same thing, but it FEELS better for the opp. Thats subversive play in a nutshell.
I personally love subversive play in competitive games because it teaches PATIENCE.
I also like the bit about Blue decks and Ling being objectively mid but subjectively awful.
God. I love rubbish‘s style. Can you even still call that merely editing? Its insane, unique artstyles , playful animations… every video rubbish put out is a work if love and long work nd its provided for free. Such a gem.
As a Xiaoyu main that’s in Fujin, I picked her up and rose without looking any strats up. I dunno how to feel about this video lol.
I just thought her cancels into transitions and mobility was saucy.
I’ve been thinking of picking up teken. Thank yoy for selling me on Xiaoyu
Please do not pick up Tekken.
@@al-mungus677 LMAO
@@al-mungus677 I main Xiaoyu and the bullshit about people getting bullied for playing the character just makes me want to play her more.
@@Ston3D.FreeN7 I wish you good luck in vanquisher
@@al-mungus677 why do you assume he will be stuck in Vanquisher?
I love the structure of this video, subbed. BTW, as someone who does not play blue in magic, I don't mind most blue things, if I can make the game faster, you should be able to make it slower
Subversion for its own sake is a better decision than making a medium intuitively understood- even if subversion can be harmful to the artwork. The artists and creators are allowed to pertake in creative liberties that arent as easily replicated by future design. An example of subversive design that is welcomed by tekken players is Bryan Fury. He has a unique taint mechanic but gameplay design is to use counterhit tools that net high value with low commitment. This playstyle also removes agency from the opponent but at a tolerable level generally that only higher level players complain about. But there is not a character like Bryan who lacks fundamental strengths in order to amplify certain aspects (i.e black deck). Whereas the negatives of playing xiaoyu are overlooked because a majority of the population cannot exploit these weaknesses to begin with. The only difference is that xiaoyu removes offensive agency that seems more natural to the average player whereas Bryan strictly operates in the randomness of neutral to begin with. The main point is that these characters are unique and operate on the idea of subversion; however the inverse of making a character intuitive to interact with and understand is potentially more problematic. A key example of this is the release of Leroy in Tekken 7, Leroy's kit was practically a mixture of previous designs and mixed together for the sake of efficiency and simplicity. It was clear that his design was the perversion of intuitiveness, attempting to construct a strong character in a rational sense instead of use their creative liberty and ingenuity. Even Kunimitsu in Tekken 7 stated by Harada was supposedly a stance character - hence the blue and red flames on the swords, reduced to a poking character with ridiculously strong tracking. Her design left mixed reactions and feelings towards the player base. The originals are still extremely popular - more often than not as opposed to the DLC and newcomers. TLDR; appeasing to everyone makes art lame
I think fundamentally people hate when things feel unfair (understandable). If a counter strategy is not obvious and you have no one to teach you, it can feel unfair even if it objectively is not unfair. Some kind of advanced training packs could help a lot here i think. I agree with you that asymmetry is cool and interesting and balance through symmetry makes things booooring. This is why i never play e4 in chess. Too many mirrored games with 10-20 moves of theory that end in a draw.
Say what you will, but I never find your videos boring. Very well done!
subbed for the intro. Much like Ling you drew me in then slapped my cheeks.
HYYYPE! I love these dude, thank you!
Excellent video. Appreciated the mirrored details in the first half. I don't know if the ultimate conclusion should be taken to heart, as Xiaoyu cannot so easily be separated from Tekken or her playstyle, but I don't have a better suggestion.
This is a problem caused by the intersection of circumstances and human tendencies, so we'd need a tutorial or story fight akin to Skullgirls' Peacock where players are forced to adapt to Xiaoyu's stance. No matter what, the medicine will be bitter.
Good analysis please more content into theory like this
I just picked up Xiaoyu because she looked fun T T
Well non-stopping now.
She's one my favorite characters, hope you have a great time!
As a Mishima player, I'm supposed to hate Xiaoyu's (or anyone, apparently), but honestly I can't bring myself to. She's a really fun character to play against for me because it makes me rethink my own kit and consider unorthodox routes to get my victory condition. I have a sorta similar experience with Zafina's kit or other stances in general. Sometimes it is frustrating, but it's even more satisfying figuring out ways to overcome it.
@@6button9 very based approach, love to see a fellow _puzzles are fun, actually_ guy in the wild
@@6button9thats how a Real One thinks. Good work, fam.
I was tricked into thinking this was a tekken video
You might've been tricked into believing it was ONLY a Tekken video
The impact of perception and expectation is insane. I don’t play MTG but I do play Yugioh, and in Yugioh you more or less constantly expect any given play to get stuffed in a variety of ways, and the name of the game is trying to get your opponent to use up their tools that threaten your goals. Hearing that people complain about Magic cards that say 'No' was wild to me because Yugioh is full of saying 'No' to eachother until you run out of ways to say it. But since in Yugioh you fully expect it as just how the game works, it's not particularly annoying.
Beautiful video essay
I'd add more evasive, turn-taking characters like Xiaoyu, to condition people to respond to shenanigans instead of bitching about them.
Well I'm convinced. I don't play tekken and I don't plan to, but I am already sharpening my pitchfork to crucify Ling Xiaoyu.
I think my hatred for nullification mechanics stems from the 2500+ hours I spent as a Jäger main in rainbow six siege, an operator whose claim to fame was looking at whatever the attackers bring along and saying "no"
But who's the Operator that says. Yes, and?
and he was a 3 speed 😭
@@GuileWinQuote he stopped being a three speed? When? I guess it's been a while since I played
@@HQRubbishOryx is the yes and
@@bartekkko like two years ago i think? maybe even more, he has been 2 speed for a while now
I think this would be less of a problem if there was a more intuitive way to deal with AOP, or if it at the very least had its counters more appropriately communicated by the game's systems. The difference between AOP and any other defensive option in Tekken is that it just shuts down so much, while also not having a clear downside communicated to the player. This runs counter to most of Tekken's moves having some sort of risky hard counter (low/high crushes, punch parries, launch punishing power lows, big evasive launchers being super minus, etc). Moves like AOP and RLX tend to give the impression that they have extremely disjointed risk/reward because of the fact they don't have a clear hard counter that becomes immediately apparent to the player (and in the case of RLX, you only get a float when you do punish it, so your combo does less damage). It's certainly not intuitive to a lot of people that you have to know if you have a move that hits arbitrarily low enough to smack ling out of her AOP, and that a lot of moves that do intuitively hit low enough are often too slow to be practical to use. Its a very hard to intuit mindgame at first and it doesn't really get any better for the characters who can't deal with it that well. This is only exacerbated due to Tekken 8's systems covering for the deliberate trade off having these moves incurs of weaker offense, so its really not hard to see why its way easier to hate on the move than it is to engage with it like any other move.
Dude, if this was true, why not address steve's aggression and various other, obviously much more threatening and less read dependant moves compared to ling xiaoyu? Do you know that not many people even know that you can interrupt lars very easily between transitions using hopkicks (thats what I use anyways)? nothing in tekken 8 is clearly communicated compared to t7, so why do you need a clear indicator for aop?
@@KyeCreates The thing about the things you bring up here is that even though they aren't really visually communicated in a match, they're still communicated through frame data. A lot of people may not know about interrupting Lars transitions, but you still have a reasonable and (somewhat) intuitive way of finding a response or counter by using training mode. Steve's aggression is similar in that, even though he may still have his turn, he usually limits his options after if he goes into DCK or whatever other stance he usually transitions into.
Now I'm not gonna say these things also can't be communicated better, because there's a lot of really punishable stuff that doesn't look all that punishable due to the lack of any hitstop or unique animations to tell the defender "hey, your opponent just fucked up! kill em!", but at the very least a player is more likely to figure it out through experimenting frame data and the like without any extra arbitrary conditions that are needed. AOP and RLX are different in this regard because the best options are extremely specific or impractical. It's not that they're crazy that's the problem, its more that the actual solution is so niche, not told by the game's own mechanics, and inconsistent in their successful applications that its not hard to see why people hate on those two stances so much. Did you know Kazuya df1 will hit Eddy out of RLX but not ling out of AOP? Its inconsistencies like that that make those moves annoying to a lot of people.
Kazuya df1 will hit ling even out of aop duck btw. But you are right, it is kinda ambigious what moves can and can not hit aop. It is also ambigious what moves track to left and what track to right. Its the same thing. If you want to catch someone stepping to right, use a move that tracks there. If you want to catch someone using aop, use a low or a mid with a large hitbox.
@@Rius9106 Ah, my bad. I've had it whiff in some scenarios, I guess it mightve been out of the range where it would consistently hit when I've had it whiff on me.
Xiaoyu is for furries so do not bully them please just don't play them, walk towards them and feed them up to high ranks , I still walk towards them and I'm Tekken God. Xiouyi furries need help and this is am outlet
I like this visual effect you put over your video, but would love if you cut out the cards for us to read the texts.
I dont know much about magic, only played yugioh a sh*tton but i was so curious haha
I been trying to explain this in my own type of way. This video puts the way I'd articulate it to shame. The analogies are pretty good.
babe wake up new rubbish dropped
What's blue's equivalent of Ling's heat activated Hypnotist mixup?
Asking the real questions 😂
gifts ungiven
Splinter Twin. Eot Pestermite into kill. Have the answer or die.
I would rather play against 10 blue control decks in a row than a single mono red burn deck. Those focus groups just haven’t been hurt enough yet.
Wait do people really dislike blue and xiaoyu that much? I just find them both the most fun to play.
It be like that, don't let that stop you from enjoying your time though!
I'm really glad you touched on the "social burden" of playing control. A few months ago I was practicing a top tier control deck at my locals with the hopes of taking it to the regionals. While I inherently enjoy winning, the negative reactions of the people around me killed the joy of playing my deck. I get that I'm not responsible for their mentality when playing the game, but it sapped the joy of winning from me. So I stopped playing control.
This taught me much more about myself than anything else
Nah, she's fine, there's a big difference between the mechanics people love to cry about and the kind people actually quit over, and running into the occasional ling in ladder isn't making people quit. Also, the huge outcry now is because people hope if they complain enough now, the character might get nerfed and they won't have to deal with learning the counterplay. You nerf any character or mechanic bc people complain about it online and you end up negotiating with terrorists, they'll just ask for more. No, just give people time, they'll learn to adapt, and eventually they'll find something new to complain about and loudly claim will make them quit Tekken.
Was thinking about this weeks later (thats how good it is) and the more I think about it the more I disagree with the conclusion (or "question?") you pose at the end.
Your argument is that essentially the character should be (effectively) deleted because no one is having fun. Opponent's arent having fun. And even the Ling players arent having fun because they are dealing with vitriol from the community. But clearly we don't hate it enough to NOT play the character 😂. Taking away what makes her special is removing what makes the character unique and takes the choice away from players who can already choose to play a different character if they want. But we dont because we ultimately like playing blue. And removing her ability to do what she does is effectively deleting the character, even if she remains in the game in name/appearance only. That would be really sad to see. 😢
Again, great video. Truly enjoyed even if I disagree.
I think that question is what lies at the heart of the character. What level of utilitarian design should game developers exercise? Is the idea of Ling that she is supposed to be a tricky and at times obnoxious hinderance until the player learns how to deal with her, etc?
While I would personally always opt for Lings design to stay as is, I do think there is a difference between tweaking her mechanical makeup and removing it entirely. Undoubtedly still a difficult proposition to manage though.
Thanks for watching!
So I should have been playing Xiaoyu instead of Leo all along? Good to know.
From femboy to real girl.
It's like Pinocchio but less wood 😂
@@misterlinux9290 😂
I mean like... It's a fantastic video, damn.
RHYSTIC STUDIES CAMEO YOOOOOOOOOOO we love to see it. Sam plays Tekken stream WHEN?
Another thought-provoking video! Well done! It pains me to think that "Let it rock" is falling out of favor because of societal and technological shifts, but that's just business.
I'd see these types of gameplay interactions going over better with the general public, if after a loss these games would explain the idea behind them and some basic counter play.
Instead of them being immediately frustrated and influenced by the twitter
You have a very generous conception of how people generally respond to games explaining themselves.
People can find the solution in the lab. It's not hard to set up. And in T8, you can literally go re-play the match to see what would work in that scenario.
Text on a screen after getting angry isn't going to teach the player anything. Going through the effort of setting up the lab scenario and feeling that natural 'ah-ha' will better commit your brain to the knowledge.
I can understand, for most casual players they do not have the time required to work this out, and more importantly they want their small amount of time playing the game to be fun and feel fair.
If you wanted Xiaoyu to remain the same way she currently is you would probably have to dedicate some effort to every character, much like how Basically a very character in SF has some kind of way of dealing with fireballs. It would mean that every character would need a move that is a wide enough sweep that if a player was expecting sidestep phoenix they could just hit with the sweep get knockdown into oki and then follow up with a brutal combo that dumpsters Xiaoyu.
The filter makes the video look reaaaally rough on qualities lower than 1080p
Then watch it on 1080 lol like what?
@@pumkinmuscles1104 we have reached the point where children can no longer conceptualize "slow internet," have we
I fucking love your channel.
I pop off when I see a Xiaoyu or Yoshimitsu. They play in such a cool creepy way.
Not for real!
You got rhystic studies to do guest voice work? Sick
23:21 you said "subversion for subversion's sake" and I got PTSD flashbacks to Last Jedi.
Good video btw, was just talking to a friend the other day about "interactivity" being important to a multiplayer experience
I think if you made a video on the differences on dragunov from tk 7 to tk 8 and how it made him so good now would be a great video for your format
AOP is fine, Ling usually does low damage and whiners will cry for nerfs until he has to full launch you 4 times to win. As always the best characters will have good neutral play and do enough damage to end your life in 2 good reads. At top play its harder to fool players, the fewer times you have to win the mind game to win the better. Ling AOP being being tricky isn't an enduring advantage.
Ling will probably never win anything important in T8 history.
Note that Counterspell is no longer legal in Standard format (the most common and most casual format). There are other counter-spell cards, but they are either more expensive to play in terms of resources, or they are more restrictive in their ability to counter than brandname Counterspell.
Yes, I sort of lump together all counters into an amorphous blob of "counterspell" in this video for simplicity's sake.
@@HQRubbishOh yeah definitely. No need to go into 30 years of MTG history.
Legacy magic formats are definitely the Super Turbo of MTG where people reminisce about "the good old days" while forgetting about all the absolutely broken stuff.
In a way it’s a blessing and a curse that tekken builds on such a legacy
A curlessing or a blurse?
The idea of making Xiaoyu weak early on a Tekken sequel's lifespan @ 29:25 .
I guess that's what Tekken Project is doing for Eddy.
Eddy feels so bad when you only evaluate the moves he's had from previous games; compare their properties in T8 and in the prequels. Are the developers afraid of rebuilding, reimagining Eddy Gordo as a strong, as...maybe an upper mid tier DLC character at launch (i.e. his launch as a DLC)???
Regardless of how high or low Eddy is in anybody's tier list, I don't think right now it's fair for the developers if I put the blame on Eddy for my inabilities in reaching God of Destruction, for my failures at local tournaments. I still have a lot room to improve. A buttload of match up facts to learn and relearn(geez...sometimes I hate it when something I have memorized for many years gets a minor, kinda imperceptible change).
So yeah, I guess I should git gud while I wait for Eddy buffs.
If I eventually reached a point where I felt the character limited my potential, at least my fundamentals would've been solid already by that point.
Changing Xiaoyu to be less "blue" might shift some of the general hate away from her, but people are always going to hate on something, especially online.
I rarely engage with the online Tekken community outside of actually playing the game because people complain and whine about any little thing - these are mostly lower skilled players who don't know what they're doing and won't put in the effort to learn.
Salt also generally comes from losing, and if people don't learn to counter Xiaoyu, they'll lose to her more often, and she will therefore generate more salt. Is it annoying that I have to change my playstyle to counter Xiaoyu specifically? Yes, but that's part of the game.
This video provided some interesting info and ideas on interactivity in games, but I disagree with the conclusion because I believe there are some things that people should just deal with.
U r wrong bro, I'm beast at Tekken and Xiou is annoying and for annoying weak ppl and should be removed from the game, we don't need those people fr.
ngl i didn't need half this video to be about a card game to understand the point
Gotta account for the people who aren't as bright as you.
Thanks for watching!
Its funny because in 8 Ling struggles against absolute mashy and aggro characters. (And unfortunately most of the roster are obnoxiously mashy and aggro) if the person just straight up doesnt respect ling you get ran over because of the things/playstyles tekken 8 encourages.
Listen I don’t hate Ling as much as most people but do you not know what frametraps are?
I have a bit of an issue with your analysis of counter spells Vs instant removal as it does not consider things such as enter battlefield effects and effects that benefit from a creature entering the battlefield. There is a huge difference between preventing a card from entering play and letting it enter then removing it.
Also, I think comparison is inherently flawed as counter spells have a resource management, no I don't mean mana. I mean card advantage. You cannot stuff your deck full of 30 counter spells and 30 lands. You will run out of cards in your hand, you will run out of counter spells eventually in your library. Xiaoyu on the other hand can use AOP however many times she wants with minimal risk, as most options that work on AOP are low reward whilst Xiaoyu typically gets huge reward if AOP works.
That's another thing that should have been talked about, risk Vs reward. The risk of wasting a counter spell against a less impactful card when the opponent has a game ender is PAINFUL whilst getting hit by Kazuya DF3 cause you AOP'd thinking he'd do one his key moves that gets countered fully by AOP just feels like "ah dang it"
In general, I was excited to see how this video pans out because I'm an avid hater of Xiaoyu and avid enjoyer of MTG, but I came away really confused at to why this video was this long when it could be summed up as "Xiaoyu and Blue makes people feel like they aren't playing the game, and that leads to them being unfun to play against, and that leads to people being toxic"
I highly recommend rereading this script, because there is a lot of fluff here that could have been removed.
Perhaps I am free to strive to create things which are not purely distilled down information delivery vehicles?
@@HQRubbish never said you were, but when providing information for a comparison which takes up half the video you'd think you'd do what you can to make sure the comparison works
played mtg for 16 yrs and competitvely for 11 and generally tourney wise no one rlly cares about control the general annoyance amongst top play is normally whatever is busted in the meta, been playing tk since the start of the year and am tk king ling and honestly think shes fine and find more ppl complain about drag (the meta) ppl just need to lab or learn how to play against match ups when it comes to both games tho and in tk u have all the answers dont even need to sideboard its just knowing when to place your answers/threats also i think xiaoyu is like a mana tithe but when ppl dont know the match up it feels like u played a white daze out of no where
As always... Holy shit! What a video
Another banger. Thank you
What's that horrible filter, jesus chrit
It's an annoying person detector.
@@HQRubbish aw dang
When the world needed him most. He returns
waiting for the thumbnail and title to changes 7 times in the next week or so
I think you bring up some really interesting points about the nature of legacy game design in an online era.
However, the solution is not to axe Xiaoyu. Remember that the seemingly "vast majority of the playerbase whom hate Xiaoyu" will be skewed by the human tendency to be more vocal about complaints than praise, especially online.
Scrubs will be scrubs. If we remove Xiaoyu from the game, these players will simply find the next boogeyman to complain about. Subversive design can be a magnet for these complaints, but it is not the source. These players complain because at a fundamental level, they are incapable of swallowing their pride and admitting they were beaten by a strategy they were unprepared for; they instead point to some excuse, in this case Xiaoyu being "cheap" or "broken" or "toxic," in order to preserve their ego.
Removal of certain design choices to appease scrubs will make the game worse for everybody in the long run. It is not the responsibility of designers or players to make scrubs feel better. The responsibility is on scrubs to adopt better mindsets, and if they refuse to do so, then everybody else should be laughing them out the door.
While I do understand this sentiment and (at least to a point) tend to agree. I do think it is easy to dig yourself into a position of "superiority" for lack of better wording visavi this scrub argument.
Design decisions in games can be more or less successful without having to fall back on detractors being gatekept by skill issues.
While I don't personally agree with people who find Ling to be "bullshit", I think it is important to think about what makes that attitude occur- Especially if it said attitude happens to be recurring over vast stretches of times within (at least seemingly) a majority of players.
Does that alone automatically means the design ought to change? Perhaps not, but lots of things are bad design for the intended audience, even if there are some amount of people who will as statistical outliers end up enjoying it.
Thanks for watching.
why is the video blurry 😭
I forgot to wear my glasses.
i get that you wanted visual consistency, but making text and details fuzzy kinda just takes me out of the visual aspect of the video, otherwise, i like the content and everything you have to say made sense. i hope to see more
incredible video❤
Counter spells are an outlier scenario within magic where players who claim counters are unfun and stop gameplay are genuinely scrubs who lack understanding.
The actual unfun and agency removing gameplay mechanic in magic is Stax, and I say this as an avid cedh player used to the most degenerate gameplay possible. Stax as a few situational cards is fine, but an entire deck dedicated to it is far far worse than any control matchup in 1v1 formats.
While I appreciate the point of the video, I think it misses the point of "is this too much?". The main issue and solution presented seems to be a lack of familiarity which is a common complaint. But we're also at a point where Xiaoyu has some of the strongest mixup in the game if you don't check her. Xiaoyu has became too rounded and is strong in ways which run counter to "the design". If blue was running an aggro deck where each creature also had the ability to tap to counterspell, one might reasonably question the design and balance of the cards.
Another culprit could be Yoshimitsu with notably spin in mind. At the highest level of play, Yoshimitsu's spin completely nullifies Lidia's heaven and earth stance, in all situations except for heat smash on block. You can't delay your options or choose moves to track it, you just don't do it. Not only is it not fun, it's incredibly strong and completely invalidates the uniqueness and assymmetry of some characters. A DP is strong but it has counterplay, whereas this just cuts part of the game out.
Basically Xiaoyu's AoP is fine but fuck Yoshi.
Do you think that people have just started complaining about AoP in T8?
@@HQRubbish No, but it's only in T8 where we have people like Knee joining the complaints (AFAIK). Either way, my comment was just an excuse to complain about Yoshi 🙏
23:21 I wonder if the 2 clips shown here mean something.
"This character isn't playing tekken"
😎yes
- a ling main
This is amazing.
I was not prepared for tekken x magic
I believe everyone who's kicking your butt in a game is annoying. I think it is, when you take a step back, ridiculous to consider any particular character any more annoying than any other. If you really believe that, is it impossible for you to train for fighting that one character? Can you not dedicate some time to learning how to punish that character, how to deny them their tricks, to even learn how to play them so you understand what they want and when? I really believe any form of annoyance on a character stems from a complete lack of willingness to learn anything other than general strategy, and that's unfortunate. Of course this is ignoring actual balancing issues, I do believe characters can be too strong and prefer when a game's power level as a whole is on the lower side, but very few amount of character strengths completely outweigh their weaknesses. Learn how to fight them. Train. Become a better fighter tomorrow than you are today. That's what I love doing more than anything.
So its actually not bs and actually healthy for the game.
this video would have benefited A LOT from some background music my rotten brain is out
Play it at 1.5 speed
I have never been able to stand how silly this character is. Even when she isn’t in AOP she has a million moves that evade something.
Yes, Xiaoyu is blue
Rubbish they could never make me hate u💜
gaming
Here Right before this video Blows up
Rhystic Studies in a Rubbish video my worlds are colliding
What game is being played at 27:19?
Soul Calibur V
Very interesting video