True..... as long as the Cables have proper continuity, make good connections and don't have complicated connectors that do not last, then the Music comes throught just fine.
Your point? Ohh, just put a crap sounding cable in place, (cause I think the internals are crap anyway) there will be no difference. If the product inside the chassis is working as a whole sonically, don't you think you need something decent to justify money spent on the two components in the first place.
@@carmenandthedevil2804 The manufacturer already allowed for external cabling, unless you think they don't know you must use the plugs they provide with any cable you can buy...
@@andershammer9307 My point is simple: Designers of systems know that the external cabling is a variable and must be accounted for in the overall audio quality produced by their designs. As such, they do not expect replacing a cable to dramatically affect their equipment, or they would provide them themselves and make BANK...
The trouble is there are very few dealers left. I used to work in a High-End audio store and I helped people get better sound. I didn't sell anything that didn't improve sound or didn't sound good for them.
That Monster cable test was a joke, 1983. They did that test for years to try and convince salespeople that selling high end cables to customers was justified. I was part of one of those demo tests when they went around years ago. Using a zip cable or complete garbage wire compared to even just simple quality copper wire makes an audible difference. I remember asking them to compare generic quality copper wire to theirs... Reply was, "well that difference won't be audible".
Sure, I can agree with that. Monster Cable is essentially a marketing company. I just hope you’re not implying that all cables produce these same results. I own a relatively high-end headphone system with Ultimate interconnects by High Fidelity Cables, Furutech Alpha NanoFlux NCF power cords, and a ToneKraft headphone cable by Audio Envy. The difference in sound between these cables and stock is night and day. And I would bet my life savings that 100% of people in a double-blind study would agree, choosing my high-end cables over stock. Granted, these are very high-end cables. But there are plenty of more reasonably priced cables, DH Labs for example, that are a significant improvement over stock.
@@LorenzoNW if the difference is that great, it should captured and measured by lab equipment. I don't see any cable manufacturer claiming such or even publishing a lab result. Until then its all placebo.
@@IsmaelMartinezPR the same goes for vine tests and food. So if your suggestions stands true. Eat dog food and make your own strawberry vine. Since blindtests can't pick cheap or expensive Bordeaux. And food experts failed on expensive pate and dogfood.
Dankzzz it does not work that way. As a food marketer I can tell you that the differences in food products including alcohol are all subjective. The only way to make sure a product performance is to do a R2 (r square) reliable sample test. I don’t see, never seen any manufacturer of cables or even Multi $$$grand speakers do AB testing. Not casual or coincidental test of products. And yes, a $20 bottle of wine could taste better for most consumers than a multi multi $ chat. Lafite. You can’t measure it, so you need a large sample. Cables =placebo
@@IsmaelMartinezPR the point holds up. Its a fact that expensive vine and food are better.. the question is if the human senses blind can pass the test in a lab. The placebo card is absolutely valid, but that doesn't mean no difference....
Best cable for my system, 50ft. speaker wire at Fred's for $5. I have always used "regular" speaker wire. Sounds good enough for me. Hooked up on a Sansui 9090 with four Pioneer CS99s. Sounds awesome!! Years ago a friend of mine brought over some expensive cables. We hooked them up and we honestly couldn't tell any difference.
After I purchased a MBL amp, pre amp and CD player ( I already had Merlin speakers) and the dealer lent me some cables and told me to test them out at home for 3 days. I called a friend to perform a blind test. The following day I was the owner of a set if high end cables. Smart dealer, happy customer.
Steve, let the guy talk! Steve steered this interview in a direction he wanted it to go. I like Steve and watch a lot of his videos and always hit the like button, so don't get me wrong about my intent here.
Sorry to be so offtopic but does someone know a way to get back into an Instagram account?? I was stupid forgot my password. I love any tips you can give me!
@Zahir Parker i really appreciate your reply. I got to the site on google and im trying it out now. I see it takes a while so I will reply here later with my results.
The Monster cable vs zip cord test ONLY proved that thicker gauge cables are better than thin cables due to lower resistance and less voltage drop. So buy 10 ga generic cable it's inexpensive and does the job.
TheViewFromUpHere I’ve used the $100 20’ monster instrument cable they were making in 2000 for live music. The 1/4 inch right angle male the put on it was the tiniest bit bigger than all of the females on all my basses. I didn’t notice this until the monster inevitably failed, and I tried to use my backup. I had to duct tape it into the inputs on my amp and bass live because the bigger male ends of the monster bent and shaved the inputs permanently bigger. I wouldn’t doubt that they did this on purpose. Never again.
Thick cables solve the problem of lowered damping factor. High value of damping factor is important for proper amp feedback control if implemented, because class A tube amps mostly don't have feedback control, have poor damping factor, so in theory then can use as thin and inexpensive cable as possible, since it cannot make out port resistance anyhow worse.
He knows how to sell in the modern world. The consumer is hundreds of times smarter and more informed than consumers were before the internet. We want straight forward honest opinions. A little bit of magic, a little bit of wu-wu is fine! Just don't smother us in BS. This guy gets it right.
Terrific conversation. I’m so glad to see Mr. Singer you’ve talked about him so much in the past and those photos that you’ve shown of you and your youth you guys of known each other for a long time. Thanks for sharing I hope to see more by Mr. Singer he is a very smart man I took a lot away from him and will be reaching out to him for sales and advise in the future thanks guys
I've had good results from the Audioquest affordable interconnects and their Flex 2 in-wall affordable speaker cables. They have some insanely expensive higher end cables with batteries that they call the "dialectric bias system" and other crazy super expensive ridiculous cables, but their entry level cables are well made and sound good.
James Randi has offered 1 million dollars to anyone who can reliably tell the difference between a cheap and a 7500 dollar interconnect. Surprisingly few have even attempted the challenge, no matter how much they gloat about their prowess in high end.
The kind of cable that was tested in 1983 can be had today for less than a hundred dollars. Cables with decent gauge and high quality copper are common nowdays. Just one more reason to not throw money away on over engineered cables that have no solid evidence about performing better.
Way back when when I worked at Circuit City everyone wanted to sell Monster Cables because that was one of THE best things to sell in the ENTIRE store in terms of commission. There was so much markup in those cables it was ridiculous.
I was one of those that bought into them. Circuit City was where I started my journey into home theater :) although I knew very little aside from what the sales people told me
@@sccanj I've been using 14 awg zip cord for 40 years it lasts a lifetime too. Without even trying it, I know pure copper will sound better. 40 something years ago I just put my money into the Best turntable, and speakers I could afford, and guess what I bought a CARVER integrated receiver, that was my weak link 40 years ago. I'm upgrading now and I'm prepared to spend $1000 on speaker cables and one interconnect. My new components will be. Around $4000 bringing my total up to 5K peanuts for most people but I'm a thrifty guy who knows what he can afford
This was great. I’m surprised that $2,000 is too much to spend on a $10,000 system. But this video stops short of being earth shattering and I’m glad. Mr Singer asserts, when all is said and done, that good cables are good, and better cables are better. In principle. Thanks for the great content, Steve.
Sonically a 10 dollar interconnect or speaker cable sounds exactly the same as a 1000 dollar one. How much you're willing to pay for aesthetics only pretty much determines the spending you'll have.
@@dingdong2103 ten dollar speaker wire? you can't even get competent speaker wire for ten dollars. what gauge are we talking, with ten dollars? is it actual copper, or are we talking copper coated aluminum? and so on. these factors ABSOLUTELY affect sound. you shouldn't spend $2000 on speaker wires, *ever,* in my opinion, but that's not the same as what you're saying, which is that _everything is the same._ in no possible world is everything the same
@@WeeWeeJumbo a 4 mm2 wire is sufficient for 99% of the worlds speaker setups. That and decent connectors can be had for 10 bucks. If someone wants to pay more just for looks, up to them.
I used to employ a lot of young people when I was the manager of a Hi Fi shop and they used to go on and on about cables. I was only 25 at the time and thought snake oil. Yes I used to stock a range of cables with gold plating and silver wires but only because I could make a lot of profit for the company that I worked for. The other day a friend of mine asked me if I wanted a couple of pairs of phono to phono cabled 6 and 10 meters long. I jumped at the chance. He made the comment that I might be fussy about cables and I told him I don't think they make mcc difference.
People love subjective ridiculous things that they can just make definitive statements about without anyone having the chance to disprove them. It satisfies the same part of the brain as someone who knows "local music that's better than anything else on the radio". Some chance at pretending you have exclusive knowledge or getting yourself to believe that you hear things other people don't. The same people probably also have stock tips (without any wealth to show for it) and ghost stories, and perhaps a few robert kiyosaki books.
The thing is .. if comparing cartridges cantileverers for a minute.. You can buy the most expensive mp500 from nagoaka or an mc ortofon and be happy. You can be happy with a nagaoaka mp150 Mc is not necessarily better Than mm. And a cartridge that works for a technics 1200 may be too heavy for a dual. Make the most of what you bought make the most if what you have. No need to upgrade. Be happy play music.
When someone successfully picks out an expensive cable over a cheaper cable in a double blind listening test, we'll talk. It'll never happen. Just as nobody has been able to pick out a higher bitrate lossy file over a lossless hi-res file. People 'hear' differences purely because they expect to. It's called 'expectation bias'. Take away the expectation, take away the nonesense claims.
Finally, someone makes great sense of it all!! And it’s great he didn’t touch power cable as this one doesn’t make sense. Look inside a $10K amp and see how the mains are wired, from the socket to the power supply, usually a transformer is not crazy.
my rca cables are audioquest evergreen and my speaker cables are copper stranded 14 gauge and they work so well with my marantz cd, cayin tube integrated amp and diamond 10.4 floorstanders. Sound is well defined, smooth, good soundstage and spl. Affordable too.
Funnily, in the lab we do not use such expensive cables with test equipment if we need to make a patch, twin core solid copper mains cable is often used if normal Coax is not required. Mentioned this to a mate who worked for Linn, and he agreed, said they had seen no benefit over mains cable.
I will put my humble .02 in the pot here. In my experience cables make a huge difference. I just did an A/B speaker cable test with some well known industry people and the results were pretty dramatic. 8ft lengths running between modified Tekton Moab speakers and a Bel Canto SET 40 triode amp. Cable A was a cable that was not cheap, and performed very well. Braided silver 24 conductor. Cable B was Silversmith Fidelium Foil cables and wow. Everything sharpened up, so much more coherent across the entire spectrum. It was a stark difference. The physics behind them explains a lot. Highly recommended. I also built a pair of 3 conductor .9999 solid silver cables in 15ga (1 20ga, 1 22ga and 1 24ga) and when compared to very affordable mogami speaker cable the results were less dramatic but still apparent. The silver cables are brighter and faster. The mogami have a rounder sound that may be more desirable to some. The trick is to find gear that play nice with each other, with your room, with your musical tastes, your budget... Cables matter, that being said, I only dropped some real coin on them after I had amazing speakers, amps, dac, TT and the like. Prioritize that first.
Surprising honesty in the audiophile audiophile community and the hi-fi dealership world... Welldone mr.Andrew... and wellsaid. And Steve made some good points too...
I am still using that 1980’s Monster Cable in one of my systems and still enjoying it. Great weekend video Steve. Keep ‘em coming!! And yes, Andy is the real deal!!
Mine is the original Monster Cable....purchased from Goodwin's High End in Boston back in the early 80's. It still works for me in a tertiary office system.
There are a lot of inexpensive GREAT cables out there. Studios use Mogami and you can buy a spool and solder the cables yourself. You can call the cable company who has years of experience and will send you multiple pairs of cables and you buy the one you like and return the rest!
@@andershammer9307 They make many different types of cables. I'm quite sure they all don't sound the same. I use them myself, along with Blue Jean I think they're called. Don't remember the exact model I use, but they're the one's that won a sound off among a bunch of AudioKarma members. And mine don't sound dark too me, although like a warm sound. So maybe my warm, is your dark. Anyway, the guy who built them for me, has built tons of them for many AudioKarma members, and everyone seems to like them. It could also be your equipment, and/or room. But either way. I think they sound great in my modest system. They made a noticeable difference from the cheap old cables I was using previous to them. And for the price, they're worth a try. And even if they are too dark now, they might not be later, if you change a component or two. Right? What do you use now? Out of curiosity.
My modified Dynaco FM-3 has an pair of Cardas 300B cables but everything else is Livewire Double-braid Litz cable. All old now but not sure anything new and affordable would be any better.
@@andershammer9307 If your cables alter the frequency response they are insufficient for the task. Are you sure you used the appropriate variety for your purposes?
Nope. It relies on your own experience and your own ears. If you can't hear the difference, don't spend the money! Experiment on your own to see what you can hear! Take your wife with you if possible. My wife heard the difference of my new speaker cable. She heard the supertweeters make a difference. That is proof enough for me. I can hear the difference but I just might be convincing myself. She's not convincing herself of anything. I hear the difference in my new (DIY) power cord: more bass and rhythm, better separation of the instruments. My wife didn't say anything but she started dancing to the music. That's good enough for me. All the best, Rob
@Yuvi A Hi Yuvi - can you share some tips for materials and techniques with us? I think many people would be interested to learn from you and save money! All the best, Rob
@@johnholmes912 Sound engineers will tell you about everything, thatts why most recordings sound like crap. Just listen and get what pleases you most. There is just no best cable.
Another quality video Steve. I spent about 5% of my overall spend on cables and I'm very happy with the results. I couldn't imagine spending 20%, who the hell would do that?
Thanks Mr Singer this is great information I have used (and continue to use) different cables to "fine tune " the sound from my system. It works for me. This is another reason why we should Always use a dealer and not think we are so cleaver and don't need a dealer just go shopping on the internet like an idiot
@@deepee1544 How do you know dealers don't trust in the lines they carry and use them to give you a good result? This is why they like certain things and have them in their shop because they can show great results to their customers. When I go to a dealer I am usually searching for something if they don't have it I will move on
It is good to see Andy again and listen to the wisdom of his seasoned approach to a controversial subject in audio. If you don't think cables make a difference then this will not apply to you ever, this is not a discussion for you. However, if you think that you want to connect a system appropriately with the wisdom of experience then here is great advice.
Cables only improve the sound if you pray to them and strap a 9-volt battery onto the cables to align the electrons you can also elevate the cables off the floor to isolate them from vibration but this only works if you rest the cables on exotic silk pillows. And remember these tried & true practices only work for speaker cables. Power cords and interconnects are totally different and require different ritualistic measures to attain good sound.
Don't forget your crystals on top of the speakers and amps. You know it probably actually does something because the sound gets dispersed more as it hits the crystals after bouncing off the ceiling ;p
A 1983 AB test, thats the only one he can recall. wow. Heres the real problem with the subject. Its that after your 45 birthday you start to loose hearing spectrum. Mr. Singer and Mr. Gettenberg seamed to be in their 60's. Therefore they should address the fact that good or better or cheap cables, people over certain age cant hear the difference. The looming existence of presbycusis (google it) will in time limit the amount of spectrum you can hear and therefore, HD Audio, super high sampling rates and even better cables won't (to your ears) won't make any difference. If you are over 55 be weary of placebo effect.
My Name well congratulations, that you are an exception to the rule. Additionally you don’t say anything, it’s like saying that my memory is as good as an elephant. Sorry, don’t mean to be disrespectful but a teenager these days could be hurt from abuse. I am glad you hear very well. What about others in your age group?
@@pekkatervala8476 Hello, its human nature and many audio reviewers seem not to accept that fact. As a coincidence, Audio Science Review just posted a review of Expensive headphone cables. The precision audio analyzer did not find any difference whatsoever. Cheers
Everything matters. I scoffed for YEARS on the benefits of aftermarket, high end power cables...but adding a couple AudioQuest Z3 cables to my system (one on the DAC, one on my AVR) and a Y2 on my Bluesound Node 2i, convinced me. Not only was it a noticeable improvement, it was transformative to my system! I AM a fan of "Anticables"...they make GREAT cables using oxygen free, high quality SOLID copper, with a minimal insulating coating...and they are sold for a very low price (starting at $50 for speaker cable). I have bought about 4 sets of them so far (2 sets were gifted to my father and brother). I also bought some Black Cat cables...a Silverstar digital coax (entry level) and a pair of Coppertone RCAs (also entry level)...the coax goes from the Node 2i to my DAC (Schiit Gungnir multibit), the RCAs go from the DAC to my AVR (Marantz SR7007, running Martin Logan Theos, bi-amped, in "pure direct" stereo only). Again, a HUGE improvement in sound quality. I HIGHLY suggest that you find a dealer who will lend you cables...then listen in your own home on your own system! If you don't hear a difference that justifies the price, DONT BUY THEM! But anyone who gives cables an honest audition will soon learn that yes, the DO make a difference, and yes, they ARE important. You just don't want to put a $500 cable on a $600 amp. A good rule of thumb is to keep your cables at around 10% of your total system budget. But, again, that's up to YOU and what YOU can hear and whether YOU find it of value. TRUST YOUR EARS!
Very sensible advice! System synergistic cables is what makes the 'magic'. Some component manufacturers do make their own cables ( power and interconnects mostly). After extensive testing they have worked out what is the best interface between their sources, amplifiers etc.
This ... this is exactly right IMO. Whether by instinct or total fluke (more likely) this is the approach I am taking in building my “final” (ha!) system. I have the phono preamp and power amp in place (as dictated by budget/financial resources,) speakers are good enough but subject to upgrade. Digital front end is sorted (not that digital matters much!) with analog front end a work in progress. The current room is fine for its size. The cables are mostly generic but a couple of steps above zip cord. Once I have all the remaining details settled, I’ll work on cables to find which ones are synergistic (not the brand) with my components.
I agree, just use high quality copper speaker wire of the proper gauge for the power you'll be pushing to the speakers and use well sheilded all copper interconnects and I've never had a problem. I'm a big fan of Amazon basics cables for interconnects and micca speaker cables. Thank Zeos from Z reviews for getting me hooked on those cables!
A good piece and some sage advice. Many have become far too price driven and yet still expect the full fruit kit for less. And then assume all the service and support is to be supplied basically from thin air. I've heard this increasingly price driven market best described as; "The great race to the bottom." Building a relationship with a dealer you trust, and not feeling the need to screw every sale down through the floor, will generally achieve the best outcome for all concerned. And, yes, one should apply common sense to this equation also, just as you would any other significant purchase.
For some reason many casual listeners are simply unable to detect a subtle improvement in sound quality, especially in a mid-fi system. One true test is to remove the new purportedly "better" unit/cables from the system and return the original unit/cables, then re-listen. The downgrade, if any, is more easily detected - even by a casual listener. If you don't hear a difference then send the new unit/cables back to the store. *
I'd ask "what is better?". Maybe some cables do change things, but perhaps it's just that - a change to the sound over what is normal transmission through a wire.
@@RennieAsh - true enuf. But cables are a bit like rocky roads... Personally, I liked how DH Labs' BL-1 silver-coated, OFC interconnects caused my ribbons to "sound" a little "edgier." A question of, "How do you like your poison (distortion) ?" -Lol *
Honest interview! Customers have to be reasonable. The dealer/salesperson has to make some money too. Here in Poland, I deal with only one music equipment store. Some things they sell cost less than others, some other items cost a little more. But you what? They know our name and phone number and do the best they can. I haven't spent tons there, but I am always buying from them when our worship team needs something. I went from analog mixer to full digital and bought everything from them. And yes, cables do make a difference.
How can people say this so confidently? Everyone with so much confidence says they can tell the difference but they can never demonstrate it with a blind A/b test. Unless I'm wrong, please demonstrate to me with some evidence that there's a correlation between the cost and quality of a cable and the sound.
@@michaelcorcoran8768 back in the "day" when you would get the "gimme" interconnects with some equipment, you would notice the difference between it and a quality cable. There is a point of diminishing return. Over the years since the original introduction of the Monster Interlink Reference and Powerline 2 cables, I have a draw full of different interconnects from various manufacturers including MIT, Vampire, Monster, Siltech, home brew coax, Belden, Star Quad (Mogami), Morrow etc...some I could tell the difference, others, not at all. The same with the speaker cables I've collected. I didn't like the Monster M1's at all.... I don't have to be blindfolded either. Just not know which is which and if there actually is a referable difference. Have you ever without your bias taken the test yourself? A friend had an Onkyo receiver, a JVC CD Player and some inexpensive turntable all hooked up with "gimme" interconnects. I brought over a pair of the original MIT 330 that didn't have those "boxes". My friend had heard my hi end system, but was happy with what he had. I put in the MIT's. He heard the difference, but said it's not worth the cost for him.
I too swapped out my 18 AWG zip cord for the original Monster Cable back in the 1980s. It made a difference: the system (SAE preamp, Adcom power amp, E-V Interface A speakers) actually sounded (very) slightly better with the old zip cord -- but the difference wasn't enough to bother swapping the cables back.
@George Blisson -- My conclusion being entirely subjective, that's certainly possible, but running a "blind test" on a couple of meters of stranded copper is neither practical nor worth the effort IMO any more than going back to the zip cord was at the time. Ever since then, I've ignored all the speaker cable hype and simply gone by Roger Russell's advice -- I've even used jacketed 18 AWG AC cord from a defunct vaccum cleaner. :-) roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
I use a Monster cable for my guitars/basses to the pedal boards or amps, but I do this because the cable is tough and the constant tugging of a guitar or bass on the cable tends to break connections at the connecters. I use it for the toughness of the constantly moving end rather than for better sound. The Monster cables seem to be tougher than mast other cables I have tried. On my stereo speakers, I just use relatively heavy gauge copper cables (don't have a high end system by any means, but it sounds good).
With speaker cables the gauge (lower the better) is pretty much the only selection criteria. Oxygen free copper, silver etc. are just snake oil and have zero measureable effect on the speaker performance. This has been proven by blind tests and measurements countless of times. Speaker gauge needs to be low especially in two cases: 1) You pull long distances, for example you have rear speakers for surround at the back of a large room and 2) The speakers have a low impedance. For example electrostatic speakers drop to 0,5 ohms at high frequencies.
Great discussion. Cables may make a difference, certainly well shielded cables and high gauge speaker cables with quality connectors will. Other than that, it's only money well spent after everything else is exactly where you want it. At that point you have two options. Very high end magical cables, or a witch doctor.
I suppose that everyone here who defends and invests in extremely expensive cables already has a fully acoustically built and treated room, which is ultimately what makes an audio system sound good. Nope? It is funny to see people who invest 10,000 in cables and listen in a room that measures the same width and height or that the room is made of wood (it is so common in the USA)
If you're a complete novice this video makes sense. But if you're a seasoned audiophile of many years, I want to be telling the dealer what sounds good, or not. I certainly don't need someone else's preferences. Its a long time ago now, but in my youth I worked for Sevenoaks HiFi ... They sold mid to high end kit, and they (like any business) want to make money. My romance with HiFi didn't apply in the shop. And we always stocked flavour of the month HiFi reviewers recommended buys, which usually had good mark ups. The reality was that often really good equipment little known with poor markup value was always pushed to the side - unless I did the god awful thing and push it in favour. Sometimes very knowledgeable audiophiles would venture in and buy such gear. I was dismissed after 18 months when a new CCTV system caught me recommending stuff with little profit, and giving out info as the why, but since we had 3 listening rooms back then it was easy to demonstrate the really cool stuff. And expensive kit was not always the best either.
My system cost me about 10k and I have spent probably 3k on cables. The difference is that the 10k I spent got me gear that would cost about 50k at his store. The Bryston 10 year old gear still has 10 year warranty left on it and once you go Bryston you don't look back or at least I haven't.
When I worked at a high-end stereo store it was just the store owner and me and we had relationship with a lot of customers. We had a lot of repeat customers because they trusted my ears. Yes me made a profit on some things but thats how you stay in business but we didn't recommend anything that didn't sound good at whatever price point.
@@andershammer9307 Most things sold at Sevenoaks HiFi was of good to excellent quality. Even magazine favourites. Just it wasn't always the best value. In those days, people would often come into the shop with a list of recommendations from magazine reviews. It was hard work showing examples of why "X" wasn't always a good choice because "Y" just wouldn't do it justice. But in those days, HiFi reviewers were like Gods and convincing someone otherwise verged on blasphemy, but thank goodness for listening rooms. Time consuming, but always worth it. Unlike now, back then the front end was considered primary for building your system round. Expensive Turntables/arm/cartridge combos with cheap amps & speakers. Though our killer budget system was a dual turntable, NAD amp, and mission speakers. I had a few variations that I felt sounded better for similar money that would often include better speakers or amp. It was the "golden years" for HiFi in terms of interest, and the real stars of the show were budget developments which seemed to constantly push the boundaries.
That must have been a pretty good little system. I still Love Dual turntables and I have about 15 of them. My primary turntable is a Dual 731Q. I also have a LINN LP12
I buy decent cables and use them. Not the Cheapest but not Real Expensive--And I've used expensive before. Now I look for good construction and reliability. I use a good Oxygen Free Speaker cable usually 12 ga. with a flexible jacket, these are usually high quality. Everything has been working fine without a glitch and I get Clean Sound--What more do I need?
Always use the most expensive digital cables, Monster hdmi cables give a warmer tone to your 0s and 1's. A friend spend a hundred bucks on a video cabe. I swapped it out without him knowing, he never knew the difference.
It only matters for interference or some other kinds of degredation of the signal over long runs with digital ;p Idk ow that manifests itself though, does it just stutter the signal?
Cables do make a difference in most systems. I offer two exceptions from my own experience: 1. Driving a power amp from a passive pre-amp. Massive difference between cables driven from a pot or resistor network. Practically NONE when using an audio auto-transformer as a volume control. (I suspect its an impedance thing - pots increase the series resistance when you turn the volume down - but transformers reduce the output impedance.) Unbalanced equipment only. 2. Driving balanced equipment (requires 3 conductors and commonly used for professional microphone preamps). I offer no theory on this, just my own observations. A decent cable as used by professionals for microphones is absolutely fine and affordable in your HiFi. I am with Andrew on this topic. A decent set of cables is fine without wasting the budget on exotica. For any techies out there, I recommend "The Super-Cables Cookbook" by the late Allen Wright. A worthwhile read on the subject. 😀
tragic to read the people who drunk the coolaide. I master and mix records for a living and I promise no studio is using expensive cables to record music.
I don't "believe" in cables because in most arguments for higher end cables, belief is what's required. However, I DID have a cable experience that made a positive difference and I think there is a scientific reason for it. I bought a spool of 16 gauge cable about 7 years ago when I first got into audio, and I've been using for all my speakers ever since. I recently looked back at my purchase and realized it was Copper-clad aluminum. On a lark I bought a spool of 10 gauge pure copper wire for about $35 with new banana plugs. I made the new cables, cleaned the terminals and plugged everything in. it made a SIGNIFICANT difference - reminiscent of when I give my car a tune up. The system seemed to play louder and significantly more dynamically. I had my SO switch back and forth 5 times listening to the game of thrones intro and I got it right every single time very quickly. I'm chalking this up to the reduced conductivity of the aluminum more than anything else. I don't think I'd experience a difference like this going from $0.60 a foot 10 gauge copper to some fancy shielded $1000 10 foot cable.
...a 2019 video that references a test in 1983. With several hundred, (or several thousand), high-end audio shows since then...plenty of opportunities have presented themselves for blind A/B testing with the industry experts taking turns in the proverbial hot seat. (I know, I know...when cable "A" isn't correctly identified as being superior to cable "B", the compromised hotel room, or lack of proper wall/ceiling/floor treatments, or proximity near to or far away from the transformer supplying the hotel's power, etc. would be brought up...)
its tooo many variables. Sometimes noise from ether is so great that only full shielded balanced audio cable can stop them. But thats type of cable add weight to the sound and not everyone like it.
My thoughts on system spending. 40% speakers 20% preamp 25% amp 10% source 5% cables. The amp and speakers will never become obsolete. An amp and speakers that sound good today will sound good twenty years from now. The source seems to change ( lps, cassette, 8 track, cd, laser disc, DAT, ipod, and most recently streaming) who knows in future how we will consume music?
james martin not sure that one will hold up. As speaker ages, all of the moving parts will wear especially the surround. I had a few sets, JBL, Frazier, etc where ultimately the speaker surround and cone material started to disintegrate. Just have a look at the used market for Wilson Audio, many of the WATT/Puppy had the woofer drivers foam surround replaced. Same with Amps, I have an amp my dad purchased in 1975 and I had to do a full restoration, a lot of the electrolytic capacitors dried out and components failed due to heat and age from 3 decades of running until it started going into protection.. I documented every component upgrade and semiconductor substitution, where many are not available today. So as electronics continue to improve, better material science, so do the integrated systems they go into. Many of the components I put in where at the same or higher tolerance rating and smaller. The Amp a Sansui AU-6900 is up to the task of proving maybe another decade of service, but the contacts and volume pot will give out and the sound will slowly degrade again. Typically newer electronics will incorporate better ways of doing the same job. Another good example McIntosh. Their preamp lineup evolution has continuously improved how inputs are switched, how the volume is controlled.
@@mpitogo Thanks for the response, this is only my personal opinion from experience. My Bryston 3b nrb and Vandersteen 2ces still perform flawlessly since I purchased them in '94. My other components have been changed, sold. I may have to repair or replace in the future, but I feel I certainly got my money's worth and more from them. Cheers
not if you want looks, then you may do a little bit more. I'd say anything over $100 for the pair is over the top. There's only so much pure copper gold plated connectors with fancy translucence covers can cost etc.
Speakers, room acoustics, furniture (affects acoustics), amp source, power treatment, cables ;-) I mean source matters if you do things like vinyl or digital, or low bitrate vs high bitrate in all digital source. I guess DAC applies to this group.
Sorry but I've got to disagree! Cables can limit in an extreme way good equipment... Just my experience and my 2 cents. Until you have really good cables in your system, you don't know how your loudspeakers, how your cd-player, how your amp really sounds! Of course the biggest profit goes to a cable manufacturer... Unfortunately it's about how they 'sound' and not how much it costs to build them... And yes, I agree, there's a difference between the best cable for a system and the most expensive cable. Sometimes the most expensive ones don't match well as some cheaper cables...
Absolutely correct! - Cables cannot "perfect" the sound of a system, they can only DEGRADE its sound quality to an extent. IOW, the very BEST that any cable can do in your system is to "get out of the way" of the signal, and NONE of them do, due to factors like shitty metal, shitty insulating ability or poor construction! *
Dunno why but I thought Andy was not with us anymore, so glad to see I'm wrong! And so glad to see an honest seller of audio instead of a used car salesman.
The only variable left out here is the diminishing and lack of quality and honest dealers with the best interests of the customers in mind. The great ones are simply not being replaced soon enough if at all. Is there someone stepping in for the legacy of this highly intelligent and honest man? Strictly IMO
The most expensive cables i would (will) buy is pure silver Mundorf cables. And if they somehow oxidate, even better conductivity. MUNDORF MCONNECT SGW115W Pure Silver/Gold White PTFE Wire 1.5mm www.audiophonics.fr/en/cable-metre/mundorf-mconnect-sgw115w-cable-argentor-isole-ptfe-blanc-15mm-p-1818.html
Yeah I agree on a 10k system spend the cash on the system than go from there. I’m just replacing my Focal 836w speakers with the Paradigm Persona F3. My Audio dealer says just keep what you have for cables now, break in the speakers than will go from there. He’s been my go to Audio guy for almost 40 yrs. now. During the 80’s we had a few pairs of the Monster m100 interconnects ( I believe that was model #) most of us who tried it preferred the Vampire wire brand to the Monster at 1/4 the price. That was our observation.
Cables are just smoke and mirrors I hand crafted my own cable design which can handle 150 Amps nominal for next to nothing and I played it against a solid core silver monocrystal cable design which costs exactly 100 times more. For the test I used the same high end Furutech rhodium plated plugs with carbon fiber version, to give it a fair shoot out. My design won hands down easy. We also tested it on a high resolution audio system where you can hear differences very easy. So there you got it. Just snake oil. What is worth investing, is a good plug. Furutech or WBT are some of the best ones.
If cables are just smoke and mirrors, and make no difference.... How could yours "smoke" the other cables? I mean as you've just said there is no difference!
The key point is "good enough". One other point to note is if the device has gold plated connectors, then using cables with gold plated connectors means more than if the device doesn't have them, where it may be better to have connectors with the same finish as those on the device
now you only have to explain how to select synergy when you have some 250 billion of possible combinations in a typical dealer store of only 20 different items of each: source, pre, amp, speakers, etc.
Question: does the length of the run also impact the importance of cables? For example, the impact is much more significant for say, 20 foot runs than say, 4 foot runs?
Well there is resistance, interference/pickup that could happen first. Perhaps slight inductance or capacitance effects though normally this is so small it's not even in the audio band. Mostly you need to worry about the first 2.
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I admire this man's honesty. If only there where more retailers like him around.
@behexen250 Yes I agree now that the title is a bit misleading considering your reply. Thanks for taking the time for this.👍😊
True..... as long as the Cables have proper continuity, make good connections and don't have complicated connectors that do not last, then the Music comes throught just fine.
A good moment of audiophile sincerity. Liked it!
Cable manufacturers must love when you put a $1000 cable on an external connector which is attached to a $0.5 wire inside the chassis...
or inside a speaker cabinet!
Your point? Ohh, just put a crap sounding cable in place, (cause I think the internals are crap anyway) there will be no difference. If the product inside the chassis is working as a whole sonically, don't you think you need something decent to justify money spent on the two components in the first place.
@@carmenandthedevil2804 The manufacturer already allowed for external cabling, unless you think they don't know you must use the plugs they provide with any cable you can buy...
We should just go back to boom boxes where there is no external cable.
@@andershammer9307 My point is simple: Designers of systems know that the external cabling is a variable and must be accounted for in the overall audio quality produced by their designs. As such, they do not expect replacing a cable to dramatically affect their equipment, or they would provide them themselves and make BANK...
The trouble is there are very few dealers left. I used to work in a High-End audio store and I helped people get better sound. I didn't sell anything that didn't improve sound or didn't sound good for them.
That Monster cable test was a joke, 1983. They did that test for years to try and convince salespeople that selling high end cables to customers was justified. I was part of one of those demo tests when they went around years ago. Using a zip cable or complete garbage wire compared to even just simple quality copper wire makes an audible difference. I remember asking them to compare generic quality copper wire to theirs... Reply was, "well that difference won't be audible".
Sure, I can agree with that. Monster Cable is essentially a marketing company. I just hope you’re not implying that all cables produce these same results. I own a relatively high-end headphone system with Ultimate interconnects by High Fidelity Cables, Furutech Alpha NanoFlux NCF power cords, and a ToneKraft headphone cable by Audio Envy. The difference in sound between these cables and stock is night and day. And I would bet my life savings that 100% of people in a double-blind study would agree, choosing my high-end cables over stock.
Granted, these are very high-end cables. But there are plenty of more reasonably priced cables, DH Labs for example, that are a significant improvement over stock.
@@LorenzoNW if the difference is that great, it should captured and measured by lab equipment. I don't see any cable manufacturer claiming such or even publishing a lab result. Until then its all placebo.
@@IsmaelMartinezPR the same goes for vine tests and food. So if your suggestions stands true. Eat dog food and make your own strawberry vine. Since blindtests can't pick cheap or expensive Bordeaux. And food experts failed on expensive pate and dogfood.
Dankzzz it does not work that way. As a food marketer I can tell you that the differences in food products including alcohol are all subjective. The only way to make sure a product performance is to do a R2 (r square) reliable sample test. I don’t see, never seen any manufacturer of cables or even Multi $$$grand speakers do AB testing. Not casual or coincidental test of products. And yes, a $20 bottle of wine could taste better for most consumers than a multi multi $ chat. Lafite. You can’t measure it, so you need a large sample. Cables =placebo
@@IsmaelMartinezPR the point holds up. Its a fact that expensive vine and food are better.. the question is if the human senses blind can pass the test in a lab.
The placebo card is absolutely valid, but that doesn't mean no difference....
Best cable for my system, 50ft. speaker wire at Fred's for $5. I have always used "regular" speaker wire. Sounds good enough for me. Hooked up on a Sansui 9090 with four Pioneer CS99s. Sounds awesome!! Years ago a friend of mine brought over some expensive cables. We hooked them up and we honestly couldn't tell any difference.
After I purchased a MBL amp, pre amp and CD player ( I already had Merlin speakers) and the dealer lent me some cables and told me to test them out at home for 3 days. I called a friend to perform a blind test. The following day I was the owner of a set if high end cables. Smart dealer, happy customer.
Thank you Andrew and Steve for speaking these truths.
According to them….
Love Andrew Singer.Very smart man.Period.
Steve, let the guy talk! Steve steered this interview in a direction he wanted it to go. I like Steve and watch a lot of his videos and always hit the like button, so don't get me wrong about my intent here.
Sorry to be so offtopic but does someone know a way to get back into an Instagram account??
I was stupid forgot my password. I love any tips you can give me!
@Milan Omari instablaster :)
@Zahir Parker i really appreciate your reply. I got to the site on google and im trying it out now.
I see it takes a while so I will reply here later with my results.
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@Milan Omari You are welcome =)
The Monster cable vs zip cord test ONLY proved that thicker gauge cables are better than thin cables due to lower resistance and less voltage drop. So buy 10 ga generic cable it's inexpensive and does the job.
TheViewFromUpHere I’ve used the $100 20’ monster instrument cable they were making in 2000 for live music. The 1/4 inch right angle male the put on it was the tiniest bit bigger than all of the females on all my basses. I didn’t notice this until the monster inevitably failed, and I tried to use my backup. I had to duct tape it into the inputs on my amp and bass live because the bigger male ends of the monster bent and shaved the inputs permanently bigger. I wouldn’t doubt that they did this on purpose. Never again.
@@anthonyiodice Anthony, you DID cryo that duct tape....right?
Thick cables solve the problem of lowered damping factor. High value of damping factor is important for proper amp feedback control if implemented, because class A tube amps mostly don't have feedback control, have poor damping factor, so in theory then can use as thin and inexpensive cable as possible, since it cannot make out port resistance anyhow worse.
I immediately want to buy something from this guy now.
He knows how to sell in the modern world. The consumer is hundreds of times smarter and more informed than consumers were before the internet. We want straight forward honest opinions. A little bit of magic, a little bit of wu-wu is fine! Just don't smother us in BS. This guy gets it right.
Terrific conversation. I’m so glad to see Mr. Singer you’ve talked about him so much in the past and those photos that you’ve shown of you and your youth you guys of known each other for a long time. Thanks for sharing I hope to see more by Mr. Singer he is a very smart man I took a lot away from him and will be reaching out to him for sales and advise in the future thanks guys
I would love if this guy was my boss. He sounds like the perfect person to mentor anybody / everybody.
yes-you make a good point
What Andrew says is very true. You need a good dealer.
I've had good results from the Audioquest affordable interconnects and their Flex 2 in-wall affordable speaker cables. They have some insanely expensive higher end cables with batteries that they call the "dialectric bias system" and other crazy super expensive ridiculous cables, but their entry level cables are well made and sound good.
James Randi has offered 1 million dollars to anyone who can reliably tell the difference between a cheap and a 7500 dollar interconnect. Surprisingly few have even attempted the challenge, no matter how much they gloat about their prowess in high end.
@@dingdong2103blabla
Andrew is one stoic guy, serious when necessary. Does he ever smile? Thanks Steve!!
The kind of cable that was tested in 1983 can be had today for less than a hundred dollars. Cables with decent gauge and high quality copper are common nowdays. Just one more reason to not throw money away on over engineered cables that have no solid evidence about performing better.
Yes, Monster Cable MC500 was (by the looks) better then QED79 strand back then. Wasnt till later that all the MC500 went green.
Properly shielded copper and call it a day. Cable voodoo is hilarious. It amazes me that people with so much money can be so stupid.
Way back when when I worked at Circuit City everyone wanted to sell Monster Cables because that was one of THE best things to sell in the ENTIRE store in terms of commission. There was so much markup in those cables it was ridiculous.
I was one of those that bought into them. Circuit City was where I started my journey into home theater :) although I knew very little aside from what the sales people told me
All the monster cable stuff lasts a lifetime though
@@sccanj I've been using 14 awg zip cord for 40 years it lasts a lifetime too. Without even trying it, I know pure copper will sound better. 40 something years ago I just put my money into the Best turntable, and speakers I could afford, and guess what I bought a CARVER integrated receiver, that was my weak link 40 years ago. I'm upgrading now and I'm prepared to spend $1000 on speaker cables and one interconnect. My new components will be. Around $4000 bringing my total up to 5K peanuts for most people but I'm a thrifty guy who knows what he can afford
This was great. I’m surprised that $2,000 is too much to spend on a $10,000 system. But this video stops short of being earth shattering and I’m glad. Mr Singer asserts, when all is said and done, that good cables are good, and better cables are better. In principle. Thanks for the great content, Steve.
Sonically a 10 dollar interconnect or speaker cable sounds exactly the same as a 1000 dollar one. How much you're willing to pay for aesthetics only pretty much determines the spending you'll have.
@@dingdong2103 ten dollar speaker wire? you can't even get competent speaker wire for ten dollars. what gauge are we talking, with ten dollars? is it actual copper, or are we talking copper coated aluminum? and so on. these factors ABSOLUTELY affect sound.
you shouldn't spend $2000 on speaker wires, *ever,* in my opinion, but that's not the same as what you're saying, which is that _everything is the same._
in no possible world is everything the same
@@WeeWeeJumbo a 4 mm2 wire is sufficient for 99% of the worlds speaker setups. That and decent connectors can be had for 10 bucks. If someone wants to pay more just for looks, up to them.
I used to employ a lot of young people when I was the manager of a Hi Fi shop and they used to go on and on about cables. I was only 25 at the time and thought snake oil.
Yes I used to stock a range of cables with gold plating and silver wires but only because I could make a lot of profit for the company that I worked for.
The other day a friend of mine asked me if I wanted a couple of pairs of phono to phono cabled 6 and 10 meters long.
I jumped at the chance. He made the comment that I might be fussy about cables and I told him I don't think they make mcc difference.
Thanks for that insight into your life, I for one feel richer for it.
People love subjective ridiculous things that they can just make definitive statements about without anyone having the chance to disprove them. It satisfies the same part of the brain as someone who knows "local music that's better than anything else on the radio". Some chance at pretending you have exclusive knowledge or getting yourself to believe that you hear things other people don't. The same people probably also have stock tips (without any wealth to show for it) and ghost stories, and perhaps a few robert kiyosaki books.
Finally! Ty for your honesty.
The thing is .. if comparing cartridges cantileverers for a minute..
You can buy the most expensive mp500 from nagoaka or an mc ortofon and be happy.
You can be happy with a nagaoaka mp150
Mc is not necessarily better Than mm.
And a cartridge that works for a technics 1200 may be too heavy for a dual.
Make the most of what you bought make the most if what you have.
No need to upgrade.
Be happy play music.
When someone successfully picks out an expensive cable over a cheaper cable in a double blind listening test, we'll talk.
It'll never happen. Just as nobody has been able to pick out a higher bitrate lossy file over a lossless hi-res file.
People 'hear' differences purely because they expect to. It's called 'expectation bias'. Take away the expectation, take away the nonesense claims.
Finally, someone makes great sense of it all!! And it’s great he didn’t touch power cable as this one doesn’t make sense. Look inside a $10K amp and see how the mains are wired, from the socket to the power supply, usually a transformer is not crazy.
but ist essential when recording :) Good microphone can pick electromagnetic noise from power cords, from your monitor, or even from your phone!.
my rca cables are audioquest evergreen and my speaker cables are copper stranded 14 gauge and they work so well with my marantz cd, cayin tube integrated amp and diamond 10.4 floorstanders. Sound is well defined, smooth, good soundstage and spl. Affordable too.
I roll my own. Canare or Belden cable and Neutrik connectors. As long as the capacitance and resistance are proper, the cable will be fine.
Probably the best justification for cables I've ever heard .
Funnily, in the lab we do not use such expensive cables with test equipment if we need to make a patch, twin core solid copper mains cable is often used if normal Coax is not required. Mentioned this to a mate who worked for Linn, and he agreed, said they had seen no benefit over mains cable.
I will put my humble .02 in the pot here. In my experience cables make a huge difference. I just did an A/B speaker cable test with some well known industry people and the results were pretty dramatic. 8ft lengths running between modified Tekton Moab speakers and a Bel Canto SET 40 triode amp. Cable A was a cable that was not cheap, and performed very well. Braided silver 24 conductor. Cable B was Silversmith Fidelium Foil cables and wow. Everything sharpened up, so much more coherent across the entire spectrum. It was a stark difference. The physics behind them explains a lot. Highly recommended. I also built a pair of 3 conductor .9999 solid silver cables in 15ga (1 20ga, 1 22ga and 1 24ga) and when compared to very affordable mogami speaker cable the results were less dramatic but still apparent. The silver cables are brighter and faster. The mogami have a rounder sound that may be more desirable to some. The trick is to find gear that play nice with each other, with your room, with your musical tastes, your budget... Cables matter, that being said, I only dropped some real coin on them after I had amazing speakers, amps, dac, TT and the like. Prioritize that first.
Surprising honesty in the audiophile audiophile community and the hi-fi dealership world... Welldone mr.Andrew... and wellsaid. And Steve made some good points too...
Very insightful discussion.
Interviewer, shut up! Just for a minute, let the guy say what he wants to. Why did you do so much yakking? I loved what the man had to say.Thank you.
I am still using that 1980’s Monster Cable in one of my systems and still enjoying it.
Great weekend video Steve. Keep ‘em coming!!
And yes, Andy is the real deal!!
Monster cable was once good way back in the 80's but its junk now. Definitely better than even thick zip cord but there were better cables.
Mine is the original Monster Cable....purchased from Goodwin's High End in Boston back in the early 80's. It still works for me in a tertiary office system.
There are a lot of inexpensive GREAT cables out there. Studios use Mogami and you can buy a spool and solder the cables yourself. You can call the cable company who has years of experience and will send you multiple pairs of cables and you buy the one you like and return the rest!
Mogami was too dark sounding for me so I don't recommend it.
@@andershammer9307 They make many different types of cables. I'm quite sure they all don't sound the same. I use them myself, along with Blue Jean I think they're called. Don't remember the exact model I use, but they're the one's that won a sound off among a bunch of AudioKarma members. And mine don't sound dark too me, although like a warm sound. So maybe my warm, is your dark. Anyway, the guy who built them for me, has built tons of them for many AudioKarma members, and everyone seems to like them. It could also be your equipment, and/or room. But either way. I think they sound great in my modest system. They made a noticeable difference from the cheap old cables I was using previous to them. And for the price, they're worth a try. And even if they are too dark now, they might not be later, if you change a component or two. Right?
What do you use now? Out of curiosity.
My modified Dynaco FM-3 has an pair of Cardas 300B cables but everything else is Livewire Double-braid Litz cable. All old now but not sure anything new and affordable would be any better.
@@andershammer9307 If your cables alter the frequency response they are insufficient for the task. Are you sure you used the appropriate variety for your purposes?
Where are the lab tests that show any improvement. Without those, its all hear say.
So, the argument that "of course cables matter" relies on a comparison of Monster Cable to zipcord more than 35 years ago.
Nope. It relies on your own experience and your own ears. If you can't hear the difference, don't spend the money! Experiment on your own to see what you can hear!
Take your wife with you if possible. My wife heard the difference of my new speaker cable. She heard the supertweeters make a difference. That is proof enough for me. I can hear the difference but I just might be convincing myself. She's not convincing herself of anything. I hear the difference in my new (DIY) power cord: more bass and rhythm, better separation of the instruments. My wife didn't say anything but she started dancing to the music. That's good enough for me. All the best, Rob
@Yuvi A Hi Yuvi - can you share some tips for materials and techniques with us? I think many people would be interested to learn from you and save money! All the best, Rob
the laws of physics are the same now as 35 years ago; sound engineers will tell you speaker cables aren't that important
@@johnholmes912 Sound engineers will tell you about everything, thatts why most recordings sound like crap.
Just listen and get what pleases you most. There is just no best cable.
2,000 from 10,000 of a system for CABLES is lunacy!
This man is great😄!
Another quality video Steve. I spent about 5% of my overall spend on cables and I'm very happy with the results. I couldn't imagine spending 20%, who the hell would do that?
Thanks Mr Singer this is great information I have used (and continue to use) different cables to "fine tune " the sound from my system. It works for me. This is another reason why we should Always use a dealer and not think we are so cleaver and don't need a dealer just go shopping on the internet like an idiot
@@deepee1544 How do you know dealers don't trust in the lines they carry and use them to give you a good result?
This is why they like certain things and have them in their shop because they can show great results to their customers.
When I go to a dealer I am usually searching for something if they don't have it I will move on
It is good to see Andy again and listen to the wisdom of his seasoned approach to a controversial subject in audio. If you don't think cables make a difference then this will not apply to you ever, this is not a discussion for you. However, if you think that you want to connect a system appropriately with the wisdom of experience then here is great advice.
Cables only improve the sound if you pray to them and strap a 9-volt battery onto the cables to align the electrons you can also elevate the cables off the floor to isolate them from vibration but this only works if you rest the cables on exotic silk pillows. And remember these tried & true practices only work for speaker cables. Power cords and interconnects are totally different and require different ritualistic measures to attain good sound.
Don't forget your crystals on top of the speakers and amps. You know it probably actually does something because the sound gets dispersed more as it hits the crystals after bouncing off the ceiling ;p
A 1983 AB test, thats the only one he can recall. wow. Heres the real problem with the subject. Its that after your 45 birthday you start to loose hearing spectrum. Mr. Singer and Mr. Gettenberg seamed to be in their 60's. Therefore they should address the fact that good or better or cheap cables, people over certain age cant hear the difference. The looming existence of presbycusis (google it) will in time limit the amount of spectrum you can hear and therefore, HD Audio, super high sampling rates and even better cables won't (to your ears) won't make any difference. If you are over 55 be weary of placebo effect.
My Name I did not say that. I am saying that once you are past a certain age, it does not make any difference.
My Name well congratulations, that you are an exception to the rule. Additionally you don’t say anything, it’s like saying that my memory is as good as an elephant. Sorry, don’t mean to be disrespectful but a teenager these days could be hurt from abuse. I am glad you hear very well. What about others in your age group?
Right. I'm 59 and I don't hear frequencies above 12 kHz. 5 years ago I could still hear 13 kHz...
@@pekkatervala8476 Hello, its human nature and many audio reviewers seem not to accept that fact. As a coincidence, Audio Science Review just posted a review of Expensive headphone cables. The precision audio analyzer did not find any difference whatsoever. Cheers
I love 12-gauge OFC zip wire. Interconnects are a bit trickier but I like what I hear from Andy.
Thank you gentlemen! That is how I feel about interconnects and other cables. More please.
Everything matters. I scoffed for YEARS on the benefits of aftermarket, high end power cables...but adding a couple AudioQuest Z3 cables to my system (one on the DAC, one on my AVR) and a Y2 on my Bluesound Node 2i, convinced me. Not only was it a noticeable improvement, it was transformative to my system! I AM a fan of "Anticables"...they make GREAT cables using oxygen free, high quality SOLID copper, with a minimal insulating coating...and they are sold for a very low price (starting at $50 for speaker cable). I have bought about 4 sets of them so far (2 sets were gifted to my father and brother). I also bought some Black Cat cables...a Silverstar digital coax (entry level) and a pair of Coppertone RCAs (also entry level)...the coax goes from the Node 2i to my DAC (Schiit Gungnir multibit), the RCAs go from the DAC to my AVR (Marantz SR7007, running Martin Logan Theos, bi-amped, in "pure direct" stereo only). Again, a HUGE improvement in sound quality. I HIGHLY suggest that you find a dealer who will lend you cables...then listen in your own home on your own system! If you don't hear a difference that justifies the price, DONT BUY THEM! But anyone who gives cables an honest audition will soon learn that yes, the DO make a difference, and yes, they ARE important. You just don't want to put a $500 cable on a $600 amp. A good rule of thumb is to keep your cables at around 10% of your total system budget. But, again, that's up to YOU and what YOU can hear and whether YOU find it of value. TRUST YOUR EARS!
Very sensible advice!
System synergistic cables is what makes the 'magic'. Some component manufacturers do make their own cables ( power and interconnects mostly).
After extensive testing they have worked out what is the best interface between their sources, amplifiers etc.
Synergy is key. Absolutely agree.
This ... this is exactly right IMO. Whether by instinct or total fluke (more likely) this is the approach I am taking in building my “final” (ha!) system. I have the phono preamp and power amp in place (as dictated by budget/financial resources,) speakers are good enough but subject to upgrade. Digital front end is sorted (not that digital matters much!) with analog front end a work in progress. The current room is fine for its size. The cables are mostly generic but a couple of steps above zip cord. Once I have all the remaining details settled, I’ll work on cables to find which ones are synergistic (not the brand) with my components.
What do you know?, A high-end dealer who is honest. Thank you, Mr. Singer.
I agree, just use high quality copper speaker wire of the proper gauge for the power you'll be pushing to the speakers and use well sheilded all copper interconnects and I've never had a problem. I'm a big fan of Amazon basics cables for interconnects and micca speaker cables. Thank Zeos from Z reviews for getting me hooked on those cables!
I recommend silver rather than copper. Both metals oxidise with age and silver oxide has much less detriment to the sound than copper oxide.
A good piece and some sage advice. Many have become far too price driven and yet still expect the full fruit kit for less. And then assume all the service and support is to be supplied basically from thin air. I've heard this increasingly price driven market best described as; "The great race to the bottom."
Building a relationship with a dealer you trust, and not feeling the need to screw every sale down through the floor, will generally achieve the best outcome for all concerned. And, yes, one should apply common sense to this equation also, just as you would any other significant purchase.
For some reason many casual listeners are simply unable to detect a subtle improvement in sound quality, especially in a mid-fi system.
One true test is to remove the new purportedly "better" unit/cables from the system and return the original unit/cables, then re-listen. The downgrade, if any, is more easily detected - even by a casual listener.
If you don't hear a difference then send the new unit/cables back to the store.
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I'd ask "what is better?". Maybe some cables do change things, but perhaps it's just that - a change to the sound over what is normal transmission through a wire.
@@RennieAsh A good starting point is, All cables degrade, not improve, signal transmission/musical quality. -The only question is, "by how much..."
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@@cactus00001 Idk, because some people probably like the effects of certain cables that change the signal more.
@@RennieAsh - true enuf. But cables are a bit like rocky roads...
Personally, I liked how DH Labs' BL-1 silver-coated, OFC interconnects caused my ribbons to "sound" a little "edgier."
A question of, "How do you like your poison (distortion) ?" -Lol
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Honest interview! Customers have to be reasonable. The dealer/salesperson has to make some money too.
Here in Poland, I deal with only one music equipment store. Some things they sell cost less than others, some other items cost a little more. But you what? They know our name and phone number and do the best they can. I haven't spent tons there, but I am always buying from them when our worship team needs something. I went from analog mixer to full digital and bought everything from them.
And yes, cables do make a difference.
How can people say this so confidently? Everyone with so much confidence says they can tell the difference but they can never demonstrate it with a blind A/b test. Unless I'm wrong, please demonstrate to me with some evidence that there's a correlation between the cost and quality of a cable and the sound.
@@michaelcorcoran8768 back in the "day" when you would get the "gimme" interconnects with some equipment, you would notice the difference between it and a quality cable. There is a point of diminishing return. Over the years since the original introduction of the Monster Interlink Reference and Powerline 2 cables, I have a draw full of different interconnects from various manufacturers including MIT, Vampire, Monster, Siltech, home brew coax, Belden, Star Quad (Mogami), Morrow etc...some I could tell the difference, others, not at all. The same with the speaker cables I've collected. I didn't like the Monster M1's at all.... I don't have to be blindfolded either. Just not know which is which and if there actually is a referable difference.
Have you ever without your bias taken the test yourself?
A friend had an Onkyo receiver, a JVC CD Player and some inexpensive turntable all hooked up with "gimme" interconnects. I brought over a pair of the original MIT 330 that didn't have those "boxes". My friend had heard my hi end system, but was happy with what he had. I put in the MIT's. He heard the difference, but said it's not worth the cost for him.
I too swapped out my 18 AWG zip cord for the original Monster Cable back in the 1980s. It made a difference: the system (SAE preamp, Adcom power amp, E-V Interface A speakers) actually sounded (very) slightly better with the old zip cord -- but the difference wasn't enough to bother swapping the cables back.
@George Blisson -- My conclusion being entirely subjective, that's certainly possible, but running a "blind test" on a couple of meters of stranded copper is neither practical nor worth the effort IMO any more than going back to the zip cord was at the time. Ever since then, I've ignored all the speaker cable hype and simply gone by Roger Russell's advice -- I've even used jacketed 18 AWG AC cord from a defunct vaccum cleaner. :-)
roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
I use a Monster cable for my guitars/basses to the pedal boards or amps, but I do this because the cable is tough and the constant tugging of a guitar or bass on the cable tends to break connections at the connecters. I use it for the toughness of the constantly moving end rather than for better sound. The Monster cables seem to be tougher than mast other cables I have tried. On my stereo speakers, I just use relatively heavy gauge copper cables (don't have a high end system by any means, but it sounds good).
With speaker cables the gauge (lower the better) is pretty much the only selection criteria. Oxygen free copper, silver etc. are just snake oil and have zero measureable effect on the speaker performance. This has been proven by blind tests and measurements countless of times. Speaker gauge needs to be low especially in two cases: 1) You pull long distances, for example you have rear speakers for surround at the back of a large room and 2) The speakers have a low impedance. For example electrostatic speakers drop to 0,5 ohms at high frequencies.
Link the blind AB test please.
I run left over remanent cables from a computer network system installation for my 400 wpc system.
Great discussion. Cables may make a difference, certainly well shielded cables and high gauge speaker cables with quality connectors will. Other than that, it's only money well spent after everything else is exactly where you want it. At that point you have two options. Very high end magical cables, or a witch doctor.
I’d like to see a video of his shop
I suppose that everyone here who defends and invests in extremely expensive cables already has a fully acoustically built and treated room, which is ultimately what makes an audio system sound good. Nope? It is funny to see people who invest 10,000 in cables and listen in a room that measures the same width and height or that the room is made of wood (it is so common in the USA)
If you're a complete novice this video makes sense. But if you're a seasoned audiophile of many years, I want to be telling the dealer what sounds good, or not. I certainly don't need someone else's preferences. Its a long time ago now, but in my youth I worked for Sevenoaks HiFi ... They sold mid to high end kit, and they (like any business) want to make money. My romance with HiFi didn't apply in the shop. And we always stocked flavour of the month HiFi reviewers recommended buys, which usually had good mark ups. The reality was that often really good equipment little known with poor markup value was always pushed to the side - unless I did the god awful thing and push it in favour. Sometimes very knowledgeable audiophiles would venture in and buy such gear.
I was dismissed after 18 months when a new CCTV system caught me recommending stuff with little profit, and giving out info as the why, but since we had 3 listening rooms back then it was easy to demonstrate the really cool stuff. And expensive kit was not always the best either.
My system cost me about 10k and I have spent probably 3k on cables. The difference is that the 10k I spent got me gear that would cost about 50k at his store. The Bryston 10 year old gear still has 10 year warranty left on it and once you go Bryston you don't look back or at least I haven't.
When I worked at a high-end stereo store it was just the store owner and me and we had relationship with a lot of customers. We had a lot of repeat customers because they trusted my ears. Yes me made a profit on some things but thats how you stay in business but we didn't recommend anything that didn't sound good at whatever price point.
@@andershammer9307
Most things sold at Sevenoaks HiFi was of good to excellent quality. Even magazine favourites. Just it wasn't always the best value. In those days, people would often come into the shop with a list of recommendations from magazine reviews. It was hard work showing examples of why "X" wasn't always a good choice because "Y" just wouldn't do it justice. But in those days, HiFi reviewers were like Gods and convincing someone otherwise verged on blasphemy, but thank goodness for listening rooms. Time consuming, but always worth it.
Unlike now, back then the front end was considered primary for building your system round. Expensive Turntables/arm/cartridge combos with cheap amps & speakers. Though our killer budget system was a dual turntable, NAD amp, and mission speakers. I had a few variations that I felt sounded better for similar money that would often include better speakers or amp.
It was the "golden years" for HiFi in terms of interest, and the real stars of the show were budget developments which seemed to constantly push the boundaries.
That must have been a pretty good little system. I still Love Dual turntables and I have about 15 of them. My primary turntable is a Dual 731Q. I also have a LINN LP12
BRAVO! Finally sensibility in the consumer audio world.
20 yrs. ago I added low end "Monster Cable" RCA's, to a computer speaker system I had at work. Yes..., instant sound improvement.
I buy decent cables and use them. Not the Cheapest but not Real Expensive--And I've used expensive before. Now I look for good construction and reliability. I use a good Oxygen Free Speaker cable usually 12 ga. with a flexible jacket, these are usually high quality. Everything has been working fine without a glitch and I get Clean Sound--What more do I need?
Always use the most expensive digital cables, Monster hdmi cables give a warmer tone to your 0s and 1's.
A friend spend a hundred bucks on a video cabe. I swapped it out without him knowing, he never knew the difference.
Excellent! I like my ones baked, and my zeros fried... served warm, of course, never cold!
It only matters for interference or some other kinds of degredation of the signal over long runs with digital ;p Idk ow that manifests itself though, does it just stutter the signal?
Cables do make a difference in most systems. I offer two exceptions from my own experience:
1. Driving a power amp from a passive pre-amp. Massive difference between cables driven from a pot or resistor network. Practically NONE when using an audio auto-transformer as a volume control. (I suspect its an impedance thing - pots increase the series resistance when you turn the volume down - but transformers reduce the output impedance.) Unbalanced equipment only.
2. Driving balanced equipment (requires 3 conductors and commonly used for professional microphone preamps). I offer no theory on this, just my own observations. A decent cable as used by professionals for microphones is absolutely fine and affordable in your HiFi.
I am with Andrew on this topic. A decent set of cables is fine without wasting the budget on exotica. For any techies out there, I recommend "The Super-Cables Cookbook" by the late Allen Wright. A worthwhile read on the subject. 😀
tragic to read the people who drunk the coolaide. I master and mix records for a living and I promise no studio is using expensive cables to record music.
I don't "believe" in cables because in most arguments for higher end cables, belief is what's required. However, I DID have a cable experience that made a positive difference and I think there is a scientific reason for it. I bought a spool of 16 gauge cable about 7 years ago when I first got into audio, and I've been using for all my speakers ever since. I recently looked back at my purchase and realized it was Copper-clad aluminum.
On a lark I bought a spool of 10 gauge pure copper wire for about $35 with new banana plugs. I made the new cables, cleaned the terminals and plugged everything in. it made a SIGNIFICANT difference - reminiscent of when I give my car a tune up. The system seemed to play louder and significantly more dynamically. I had my SO switch back and forth 5 times listening to the game of thrones intro and I got it right every single time very quickly. I'm chalking this up to the reduced conductivity of the aluminum more than anything else. I don't think I'd experience a difference like this going from $0.60 a foot 10 gauge copper to some fancy shielded $1000 10 foot cable.
CCA is cancer.
@@andrewc1036 Expensive speakers use it now.
I’m still using my 1980s Monster cables. Love em! So do my speakers...
@@deepee1544 they were developed in the late 1970s as far as I know by Noel Lee, the founder of the company. Look it up…✌️
...a 2019 video that references a test in 1983. With several hundred, (or several thousand), high-end audio shows since then...plenty of opportunities have presented themselves for blind A/B testing with the industry experts taking turns in the proverbial hot seat.
(I know, I know...when cable "A" isn't correctly identified as being superior to cable "B", the compromised hotel room, or lack of proper wall/ceiling/floor treatments, or proximity near to or far away from the transformer supplying the hotel's power, etc. would be brought up...)
its tooo many variables. Sometimes noise from ether is so great that only full shielded balanced audio cable can stop them. But thats type of cable add weight to the sound and not everyone like it.
My thoughts on system spending.
40% speakers
20% preamp
25% amp
10% source
5% cables.
The amp and speakers will never become obsolete. An amp and speakers that sound good today will sound good twenty years from now. The source seems to change ( lps, cassette, 8 track, cd, laser disc, DAT, ipod, and most recently streaming) who knows in future how we will consume music?
james martin not sure that one will hold up. As speaker ages, all of the moving parts will wear especially the surround. I had a few sets, JBL, Frazier, etc where ultimately the speaker surround and cone material started to disintegrate. Just have a look at the used market for Wilson Audio, many of the WATT/Puppy had the woofer drivers foam surround replaced. Same with Amps, I have an amp my dad purchased in 1975 and I had to do a full restoration, a lot of the electrolytic capacitors dried out and components failed due to heat and age from 3 decades of running until it started going into protection.. I documented every component upgrade and semiconductor substitution, where many are not available today. So as electronics continue to improve, better material science, so do the integrated systems they go into. Many of the components I put in where at the same or higher tolerance rating and smaller. The Amp a Sansui AU-6900 is up to the task of proving maybe another decade of service, but the contacts and volume pot will give out and the sound will slowly degrade again. Typically newer electronics will incorporate better ways of doing the same job. Another good example McIntosh. Their preamp lineup evolution has continuously improved how inputs are switched, how the volume is controlled.
@@mpitogo
Thanks for the response, this is only my personal opinion from experience. My Bryston 3b nrb and Vandersteen 2ces still perform flawlessly since I purchased them in '94.
My other components have been changed, sold. I may have to repair or replace in the future, but I feel I certainly got my money's worth and more from them.
Cheers
I think I spend about 80% on speakers lol. And you forgot room treatments ;p
you got it backwards----most of the money should be in the front end [ cd player or tt./ cartridge/ preamp].
He is right .
understanding electrics is a good idea .
There are more Hi Fi miths to be settled
Thank you. Seriously. Yes cables make a difference and it’s very very tiny in comparison to money spent on other things.
Andrew is the sort of dealer you'd want to go to. He tells you what you don't need to buy.
7 people are angry they invested too much on cables
Any speaker cable above $2 per foot is snake-oil. This applies to any combination and price for the other components. 🙃
not if you want looks, then you may do a little bit more. I'd say anything over $100 for the pair is over the top. There's only so much pure copper gold plated connectors with fancy translucence covers can cost etc.
supposed it costs really 2$ not a cheap bad cable with price set at 2$ :) then a 1.99$/foot cable is the best cable for me too :)
My brother used to work there! He was there about a decade.
Honest and correct POV!
Great video n information.
Room - Amplifier - Speaker - Sources - Vinyl and CD ............. expensive cable.
Great tip and great video!
This is my order:
Speakers, Amp, Source, Acoustics, Power treatment, Cables, Furniture.
itoosh by acoustics presumably you mean room. I think I may put that higher in order
Speakers, room acoustics, furniture (affects acoustics), amp source, power treatment, cables ;-)
I mean source matters if you do things like vinyl or digital, or low bitrate vs high bitrate in all digital source. I guess DAC applies to this group.
@@RennieAsh I placed room acoustics after amp and source because acoustics should be done with measurement and A LOT OF FINE TUNING.
Good to know that the audio dealers know their worth
I agree. suited to the system.
Indeed.
Sorry but I've got to disagree! Cables can limit in an extreme way good equipment... Just my experience and my 2 cents. Until you have really good cables in your system, you don't know how your loudspeakers, how your cd-player, how your amp really sounds! Of course the biggest profit goes to a cable manufacturer... Unfortunately it's about how they 'sound' and not how much it costs to build them... And yes, I agree, there's a difference between the best cable for a system and the most expensive cable. Sometimes the most expensive ones don't match well as some cheaper cables...
Absolutely correct! - Cables cannot "perfect" the sound of a system, they can only DEGRADE its sound quality to an extent.
IOW, the very BEST that any cable can do in your system is to "get out of the way" of the signal, and NONE of them do, due to factors like shitty metal, shitty insulating ability or poor construction!
*
Dunno why but I thought Andy was not with us anymore, so glad to see I'm wrong! And so glad to see an honest seller of audio instead of a used car salesman.
Actually Andy isn't with us anymore but Steve being the powerful person he is, brought Andy back for this interview. 😄
@@progressiveguy9959 so sad.
The only variable left out here is the diminishing and lack of quality and honest dealers with the best interests of the customers in mind. The great ones are simply not being replaced soon enough if at all. Is there someone stepping in for the legacy of this highly intelligent and honest man? Strictly IMO
nr one, most important component is: room acoustics... and 99.98% of audiophiles don't get this
Maybe 80%..
Great segment Steve!
What brand do you suggest and what do you think about skw speaker cable
If I lived in the US … I’d buy from Sound by Singer … agree buy the best you can afford and then cable later
Sounds like a reasonable guy, perhaps he's already made his $$ in this industry and can afford to call out bs when asked.
People probably trust him more and do business with him
It's the exact opposite. He's earned a comfortable life through acting as a confidence man.
The most expensive cables i would (will) buy is pure silver Mundorf cables. And if they somehow oxidate, even better conductivity.
MUNDORF MCONNECT SGW115W Pure Silver/Gold White PTFE Wire 1.5mm
www.audiophonics.fr/en/cable-metre/mundorf-mconnect-sgw115w-cable-argentor-isole-ptfe-blanc-15mm-p-1818.html
There is a reason Bill Low lives in a multi-million dollar home in Newport Beach. His loan is 2.16 million. So he needs to sell a lot of cables.
Truer words couldn’t have been spoken here.
Yeah I agree on a 10k system spend the cash on the system than go from there. I’m just replacing my Focal 836w speakers with the Paradigm Persona F3. My Audio dealer says just keep what you have for cables now, break in the speakers than will go from there. He’s been my go to Audio guy for almost 40 yrs. now. During the 80’s we had a few pairs of the Monster m100 interconnects ( I believe that was model #) most of us who tried it preferred the Vampire wire brand to the Monster at 1/4 the price. That was our observation.
All the haters! Wish I had come up with Monster Cable back in the day, I’d be livin good right now!!
but you would never have thought of it
Cables are just smoke and mirrors
I hand crafted my own cable design which can handle 150 Amps nominal for next to nothing and I played it against a solid core silver monocrystal cable design which costs exactly 100 times more. For the test I used the same high end Furutech rhodium plated plugs with carbon fiber version,
to give it a fair shoot out.
My design won hands down easy.
We also tested it on a high resolution audio system where you can hear differences very easy.
So there you got it. Just snake oil.
What is worth investing, is a good plug. Furutech or WBT are some of the best ones.
If cables are just smoke and mirrors, and make no difference.... How could yours "smoke" the other cables? I mean as you've just said there is no difference!
I want to see test results!
The key point is "good enough". One other point to note is if the device has gold plated connectors, then using cables with gold plated connectors means more than if the device doesn't have them, where it may be better to have connectors with the same finish as those on the device
now you only have to explain how to select synergy when you have some 250 billion of possible combinations in a typical dealer store of only 20 different items of each: source, pre, amp, speakers, etc.
Question: does the length of the run also impact the importance of cables? For example, the impact is much more significant for say, 20 foot runs than say, 4 foot runs?
Well there is resistance, interference/pickup that could happen first. Perhaps slight inductance or capacitance effects though normally this is so small it's not even in the audio band. Mostly you need to worry about the first 2.