Was definitely hitting the ball further and more solid -- great drill -- everyone needs to incorporate it in their swing. Can you also reply to my earlier comment about the video re abduction? Thanks!!
I’m at the golf course parking lot watching the joke swap playlist and this pops up like a sign from god. Got the laughs in and also figured out how to get lag in my swing. Thought I accidentally added a golf vid in queue
I can’t believe how much this video has helped my ball striking. First time on range after watching this, I was instantly more consistent with contact. The more comfortable I get with the slightly different motion at takeaway the more yardage I gain. Especially with mid irons. 5 iron went from consistent 185 to well over 200. I’m a single digit handicap and this is my first ever comment on a video. Thanks AMG
What a gold mine of information. Right after watching this I went outside and noticed that my left arm was even further across my body than 44 degrees (not the 18 degree Pro limit). I correct this and I immediately felt my swing come together.correctly. I know you noticed this as well, but there is also a major difference in the head tilt between the Pro and the Amateur. The Pro's head tilts forward and the Amateurs head tilts backward! I made that change as well when I swung outside and noticed that I was making crisp, compressed contact! Thank you again!
So me. Plus my hands are also much higher at that delivery position. No wonder I can't get shaft lean and a bent right arm at impact. The recent Golftec discovery now starts to make sense as well, and/as it can only be done correctly with little left arm adduction. This is probably the most enlightening golf video I ever watched, and I've watched thousands and had hundreds of lessons with top pros and the robot- many, many thanks!
This is hands down the most informative golf video I have ever seen; by a mile. Simply brilliant demonstration of the fine lines between ‘OK’ and ‘Excellent’.
AMG is hands down (no pun intended) the best instruction outh there...i have one suggestion...i have been able to implement and physically accomplish 99% of your key knowledge swing concepts (proper pressure and center of mass change, hands faster down from top vertically while simultaneously shallowing club, right arm depth, pelvic angle more descending, etc etc) by Decreasing my back swing by 30-40%!!!!! Just thought id share. It was an epiphany moment...maybe i can slowly add more shoulder turn little by little but today i was hitting my 6i 190 yards with beautiful lower penetrating ball flight and my finish was so controlled and balanced...thanks guys
I really enjoy the gears comparisons you do. It's such an objective measure and like you showed, the more swings you can get, the greater the credibility for your teachings. I actually didn't know you had a paid site. The RUclips videos themselves have been a game changer! Thank you👍
We really appreciate that, Radd, we're glad you enjoy these. We always learn a ton during the process of doing them so it's cool to hear others enjoy them too!
Exactly what I needed. I was putting way to much effort into an extended backswing. Now have effortless power always knew I could produce. Thanks a lot
Because you didn’t give the muscles time to build up or you weren’t using the right ones this video is bs no pro looks like that in their swing their left arm almost reaches their right shoulder. Your never gonna get a 120 mph club head speed without extending your back swing
You have identified an important distinction between the two swings but have not identified the root cause of the problem . Why is the angle less ? You have to correct the root cause rather than try to correct a number arising as a result of another problem. Is this because the amateur a more arms swing then body and shoulder turn ? I believe that this should actually be referred to as an adduction angle (add... towards the midline)as opposed to an abduction angle (ab... away from the midline). Love all the pro vs am videos
This video helped me fix my early extension. I had my left arm WAY across my chest. By keeping my hands more in front of my chest, it shortened my backswing, allowed me to release the club later, and get the shaft lean and compression I've been wanting. Thank you !
Hi there, great vids and great content! One thing I noted is that the Pros all have rotated more than the AM. All the Pros have their lead-shoulder further ahead than the AM, and thus all have rotted their hips more than the Am at arm parallel. Maybe something to look at for the creation of lag. Keep it rolling!
One thing we'll cover in a future episode is that most ams rotate more at the beginning of the downswing only to slow it as the downswing progresses, while the pros do the opposite.
Great video, guys! I've become a bit of a geek over the last 2 years or so when it comes to swing mechanics. I've learned a ton about this and why things need to happen the way they do (I know I still have tons and tons to learn :-), my buddies are sick and tired of me lol). In regards to the lead arm adduction section of the video, you don't mention much about how to create more shoulder turn by using your hips and legs in the back swing. Not a lot of us are nearly as flexible as Rory and his buddies :-). That might be out of scope for what you're talking about specifically in this video, but for those of us that might not realize how shoulder turn is allowing the pro to move his arm less across his chest, some of us are probably going nuts trying to figure out how the pro is doing this and the amateur is not. My guess is that because there is so much more shoulder turn from the pros (at least 90 degrees and in some cases a lot more) the lead arm doesn't have to move as much across the chest because the chest is rotating back (with the shoulders) along with that arm. Because we amateurs don't typically have that amount of shoulder turn, we tend to move our lead arm back across our chest more in an attempt to create a bigger back swing and get more club head speed (which, as I understand it, actually creates less speed). I suppose it's worth mentioning that a longer back swing, don'e correctly, has the added benefit of providing more time in the down swing to clear the lead side of the body allowing the hands to move in front of the ball. That creates shaft lean and a delofting of the club face, allowing for more compression and distance. There's more to it than that though! I know! It would be great to know your thoughts on my comments. I've learned a lot, but I'm sure I got something wrong here! Thanks guys and please keep these awesome videos coming. Instant subscribe and maybe more. Heading to the website now. :-)
Agreed. I’ve done k vest etc and came away thinking it was physical limits, yet we know many great strikers who aren’t all that flexible or strong- certainly way less than me. Seems like talent! But I’d love to see a video where you show a student go from before to after. That would sell a lot of subscriptions! I’ve got a 16yo who’s opposite of me- all talent and carries the ball 310 with 125mph clubspeed and carries 7i 190 smoothly but he jumps and does a lot of athletic things that he probably doesn’t need to do to hit it solid and close to his distances. But when someone has talent you don’t touch it. In my case, I need all the help I can get. I’ll buy your course and see if I can come close to these positions! I’m also trying to train impact with DST club and the Impact snap and do find it makes my body figure out what to do.
Great analysis. I’ve watched 2 of your videos this morning, and quickly becoming a fan! You’ve got my swing analyzed perfectly…..hips move forward, lag disappears! Good thing I can get it up and down from the truck of my car. Now to fix it!
Super interesting. Reals vs feels! I was instructed to keep my left arm pinned to my chest a bit longer on the downswing (couple years ago), and it transformed my ball striking. No more fats. Face to path more reliable. No loss in distance -- though probably due to better strike rather than club head speed. It might be, however, that what I feel -- longer connection in downswing -- might in fact result in better angles coming into impact. Will have to do some slow-mo vids face on to see. Thank you for your work and your analysis.
Try to get someone to hold the camera up looking down at about 90º to your shoulder tilt. That'll give a better view of what's happening in this department👍
Have played golf over 20 years now, have NEVER heard or seen this information before. I feel like I've just discovered something! That lead arm adduction for pros just blows my mind. What this is telling me, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that the arms/hands are dropping first, and then at a faster rate than the upper core. Is this correct? I've never downloaded anything off RUclips before, but this will be the first. Is there more great teaching like this on your website? If so, sign me up!
This is fantastic analysis - I had never even considered lead arm travel angles as a possible data point until now. Can’t wait to incorporate this on the range tomorrow. Thanks!
I have a concept that creates the magic force at impact, I believe it’s all timing, it’s as if the very butt end of the club and left hand actually stops or slows up to let the right hand lever the club, the hands have to be out front , it’s the shaft flexing and springing toward ball. That’s why the best at impact have their hands so far past center as the club head catches up. It’s this spring lever effect culminated with fast delivery that increases speed.
Yeah a lot of people talk about hand position at address or at the top but I noticed Rory awhile ago how half way down his hands are over his right thigh . then the hands more forward of the ball and then the club head starts to release. Ever since then I’ve tried to do the sa,e thing in my swing.
Another brilliant video, with very detailed explanation! Watched all of their videos now and I'm putting them all together, so I can have the perfect swing - in about 30 years time!
This was great. Just went to play today after watching this video. I was trying to emulate the concepts (especially the left arm angle going back, and then cupping the wrists). I havent done any of the drills but my ball striking was a lot better. Thanks for the great content!
Hi - great to see the ams vs pros comparisons back again! On the down the line shots though as well as the club face difference, the main thing for me and the mistake I fall into, is the the ams shoulders are still closed to target whereas the pro is at least square on at this point. So the am will end up with more of a flip to release as they have not cleared shoulders, hips etc?? Fixing that is the holy grail !!
Both still have closed shoulders at that point. The big difference with rotation, and one we'll cover in a future episode, is that most ams rotate more out of the top slowing the rotation into impact. The pros tend to do the opposite. So what you're seeing in the frames you mentioned is that happening.
Your discussion of adduction and depth is excellent. Too much confusion follows the stress on left arm connection and synchronization in the backswing- having the left arm follow the rotation too far inside. Instructors spoke of "plugging" the left arm into the chest causing the problem you mention. You very quickly mentioned having the chest rotate away from the left arm- that's my next swing thought.
You mentioned there was a difference in ball speeds between the pro and am given similar swing speeds. Was curious how significant that difference in ball speeds is given similar swing speeds and why that is. Love your videos and your comparisons. You guys rock!
Great video, but it got me to thinking of a question. Maybe I missed it but, club head speed about the same pro-am? So, if the ball is met with the same force, why it goes farther with the slightly different technical differences. Those differences don't seem to create better club speed but possibly create better contact? Is contact at the sweet spot of the club face be why the pros hit farther and could these technical differences between pros and ams (very good ams) be what creates better contact and better contact translates to farther distance and better accuracy? It's all so very interesting. I find your videos the most interesting and informative.
AMG - Question for you about a comparison of the pros vs ams when transitioning from top into downswing. If you look at 9:45 ish here, we see the issue that pro's don't move their lead arms across their chests as much as the ams do - which I think I'm working on improving in my own swing. My question is in the transition - when they start the downswing in earnest - and the body starts to rotate down, does this angle increase for a brief moment before the hands start moving? Seems to me that (I know the sequencing is very tight) but if the hips move, then body, then arms, then its possible that the pros might allow that angle to increase just before the hands start moving down. Non-3D viewing makes it look that way at times, and it sorta seems like it might feel right - that softer arms at the top could mean that the body rotates and slightly increases that angle as the arms haven't moved yet. Thoughts?
As someone who is technical, for better or worse, this is an interesting video despite perhaps an overload of information for an average golfer. I can handle it. Re the angle on the backswing, isn’t the difference in angles due to the fact that the pro has a greater shoulder turn than the amateur. Many amateurs “pick the club up” and don’t turn enough. You don’t describe what causes this difference in angles. That would be informative I think. BTW, as a woman (single digit but 70), do you have some analyzes of LPGA golfers’ swings? It would be very interesting to compare. With our slower swing speed, especially as a senior, I’m not sure I can get that same lead arm abduction as men might. It’s all about swing speed. No? What are your thoughts? Thank you!!
Great questions, Lois. Doing what you see in this video is what allows golfers to rotate their shoulders better. We see it everyday in lessons with our senior golfers. They have should rotating because what their trying to do with the left arm and where they think it should be at the top is keeping them from more rotation. We've seen this change produce 30º more shoulder rotation from a 66 year old golfer. He felt like he won the lottery😊. Yes, over the past year we've been collecting more and more LPGA golfers. In fact, in our next Pros vs Ams video, you'll see one of them.
I enjoyed the video. My question is this, the lead arm in pros is about 18 degrees and ams are 43 degrees. Great news only I need to know how to achieve this position. It makes sense that pros have less work to do on the downswing.
This actually shows that most of the backswing rotation is coming from the hips (~45 degrees) and torso rotation (another ~45 degrees) and the final bit of rotation is achieved through the arm across the chest (~21 degrees) as seen in the video. People that have trouble reaching the top of the backswing are generally not yet very good at achieving the hip and torso rotation required either due to a lack of understanding how to do so correctly or because of a lack in flexibility which can be gained through practicing the right things.
I'm confused by the part of the abduction. At the top of the golf swing, you state the left arm is 43 degrees across the chest for amateurs and 18 degrees for pros. But yet in videos of pros I have seen and in some other videos of yours, it appears to show that even with pros, their left arm is almost flat against their chest in the backswing but certainly more than 18 degrees. To only be 18 degrees, it seems to me that your left arm only goes back slightly on the backswing and to the right your stance at address by only 90 degrees. Can you clarify?
Exactly that’s why you can’t listen to a lot of this stuff most of it is made to keep you struggling so you keep coming back for lessons. Pros absolutely have there arm way more across the body than this video. It’s bullshit
Mike, im wondering about the amateurs hands at club parallel. In the pro vs ams model it is unclear to me of the hand depth. Should we assume that both hand depths are the same distance away from the body? Do you often see the hands getting “stuck behind” the hips instead of out in-front of the body?
Stuck behind has more to do with height than depth. When the trail arm doesn’t lower enough in the beginning of the downswing, it won’t be low enough late in the downswing. It’s the hands being too high at shaft parallel that has then stuck behind. We typically see ams lower their trail arm less than HALF of what we see the pros do from the top to left arm parallel.
My left arm almost touches my chest on my back swing. I know I am an idiot but when I started playing golf, I read an article by Jimmy Ballard about staying connected and I came away with the idea that my left arm should be connected to my chest and I have never been able to change it. I can definitely see myself in the amateur in this video.
Mike, seems the left arm position for the pro MAY be due to a better turn? Is the turn an integral part of why pro's vs. am's have different left arm movement?
I like the video. Do you think this is tied to the feel of keeping the hands in front of the chest and pushing away? When that is my thought, I tend to keep the left arm from crossing over.
another WoW! I liked your video about the HIPTURN, and this one. The most important part of the video for me is the fact that the Left shoulder protraction at the top of the swing is much smaller for the Pros. Yes, I think I know it through my experience, but didnt put that importance on. But as lons as the protraction is big, no one can hit like a Pro, then we need to fix it. Plz tell us "How to have smaller protraction at the top of swing"
Hey guys, love your channel. Clearing up so much misunderstanding, It would be interesting Matt Kuchar left arm. Also we need the next video on this. I think here many of us can improve.
This is startling. So the initial 90° angle results from the shoulder being turned inward. Then the pros keep their hands in front of them by turning the shoulders an extreme amount after fully turning their hips. I assume I have that right... Absolutely fantastic video, I've shared it with several people. Might sign up for the paid stuff!
I would really like to see you demonstrate the left arm positions in the back swing between pro/am. I can't understand how the pro left arm can travel so much less than the amateur's lead arm. Is this because they are getting to the top because of greater chest turn?
It has more to do with shoulder rotation than chest rotation, Don. I think a lot of golfers see those as the same thing, but they are quite different. The shoulders can rotate a lot more because they move independently of one another.
This is so important. Would love you to explain or show in real swing the shoulder movement of the pro. It feels as a very minimal turn. Or from set-up, just turn till hands reach trailing leg or knee and then mostly arms to the top. Would that be about right? Thanks!
At minute 9 you show the lead arm angling across the body on 18 degrees. The picture above looks like MUCH more than that, and when I watch the pros, it APPEARS as if, as they take their backswing up and back, that their arm crosses their body about 45 to 60 degrees! I don't even know if that is possible, but 18 degrees is hardly any movement. What am I seeing that looks like more ... even in your diagram. Thanks, Glen
Hey guys, awesome video. Another one I like to revisit every so often. I have a question about the LAA number at address. It looks like all players have the left arm angled towards the center of the body rather than straight out as would be expected with 90 degrees of LAA. You guys have also shown how the hands are more towards the right side or center of the body at impact, how can the left arm have over 90 degrees of LAA with the hands in that position? How is the LAA angle defined exactly?
How many times have we heard a pro say, it feels like my left arm is pinned against my chest and the chest then turns and flings the arms. Feel vs real once again.
I am curious, how much of a "pros" swing is meant to solely create distance and how much encourages consistency. Eg, if I was more focused on improving my consistency and distance was not a high priority, would I be making the same changes? Obviously we all need some distance but hitting a 7 iron 150 is not difficult, hitting it 150 straight can be, at least for me.... I have been making adjustments to my swing based on your videos and my back is starting to say "stop it"!
Its a valuable knowledge about what I'm doing wrong at the time on the first tee where every body look up you what do you have thank you great video keep up !!!...it
This was eye opening for me and it really shows why we as amateurs don't have good lag, because how can we possibly catch up if our lead arm abduction is so wide on backswing. Question: how can I get my lead arm in front of where it was ad address on the downswing so my hands are in front of my right leg and not behind it?
Jennifer, the key is to not move it too far across in the backswing. It's not something that will be fixed in the downswing if that there's just too much ground to cover coming down.
@@AthleticMotionGolf would the proper backswing thought to be just keep the left arm pinned against the chest on the takeaway and just turn my chest back?
@@jenniferlee8701 Would definitely not recommend that thought. We've got some more stuff on the way to explain this in more detail, but pinning the left arm gets golfers in trouble on the downswing.
@@AthleticMotionGolf : this is Reggie Lee i'm actually using my wife's google account under Jennifer to reply to your videos. I'm in the Palm Springs (Indian Wells, La Quinta) area do you guys ever get out here? IF so I would love to get a lesson or if not, do you recommend someone in this area that teaches with the gear set up and similar methods as yours?
@@jenniferlee8701 Hi Reggie, we haven't been out that way yet, but we are talking to some folks about doing a school out there in 2020. I'll have to look and see who might have a GEARS out that way.
I signed up just to watch flight fix and it didn’t really fix my issue. Makes me wonder if some people need to train wrist conditions to retain lag even if your lead arm is in a good place off the chest????
Great vid. But when I first looked at the pro v am, I thought you were going to point out that the am slid away from his hands. The amateur's left hip stalled out over the left foot rather than rotated back. This seems like a reason the hands get stuck behind the amateur....they don't have a chance to keep up with the lower body slide. Love your stuff!!! Now one can understand how the arms of the pros swing past the torso so well through contact....they don't get buried behind the torso in the backswing.
Is the left arm adduction angle based on the upper arm only? Not to say to bend the elbow a lot, but not hyperextended.. Saying that this is why even with the gears stopped it doesn't appear as if it's past the address at delivery.. Well, that and the angle of the arm to camera.. Kinda like a 90* wrist angle looking like 120* from face on when it's flattened?
I pulled some still frames from a number of pros top of backswings and I'm just not seeing what's claimed here. Pros clearly lay their lead arm across their chests to their opposite shoulder....not mid-chest. Am I missing something here?
Yessir, the biggest being the angle you are most likely seeing it from. The list of things you can't see from video (at least not the standard video angles) is quite large.
Sorry should have read club head at 10:00 when hands are at right knee. Have also found it much easier to get the weight fully shifted to the left front leg on the downswing with club head trailing still trailing at 10:00. Massive difference in driving distance 😀
Tyler Rosenow I’m sorry, I misunderstood you question. We have a whole step-by-step series how to do that (10-12 videos IIRC) along with all the drills inside our membership. Here’s a link if you are interested athleticmotiongolf.com/amg-all-access/?inf_contact_key=5397ad06bcae6e24007ee3618b34662c
@@AthleticMotionGolf yes, when you look at flexible golfers like Charl Scwartzel etc who has their lead arm straight up in the air, no wonder ppl strive for that despite not having the shoulder rotation to make it work
Love these videos! They are very informative. I would like to also point out that the ametuer never recentered his body weight. He looked to stay on his back foot.
With the 6 pro diagrams together at 15:20, is their left arm at the outside to the address position during the club at parallel to the ground or is that is that at ball strike? If it is during club parallel to ground, then what is the arm/shoulder angle during impact and after impact?
Fantastic video and information. Do the pros get the same delivery position well into the trail leg thigh for driver as you have shown with the 7 iron?
Great video, though im confused... i was only just watching one of your old myth buster videos regarding "arms in front of chest" and it showed the pro gets quiet a bit of lead arm abduction?
In that video around 1:30 Shaun says "he lets that angle contract a little bit." That's exactly right and what we covered in more detail here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing you looking at the angle graphic in that video thinking it decreases quite a bit. That's why this has been misunderstood for so long. In order to see that angle correctly, or see the true angle, the camera (your POV) would have to rotate with the shoulder so it stays at 90 to the angle. Then that angle would look completely different. That video was done back in 2016, since then GEARS has updated that graphic and attached the actual real-time angle to it as it moves with the swing. The key point is that unless the camera is rotating with the angle, it will always look skewed from a single fixed camera angle. That making sense?
It's interesting how I learned "grip at the ball" halfway down to no avail. But now I realize when the wrist is cupped..lead edge on arm...yes..but then the pros seem to torque the club and turn the face which in turn moves the grip to point slightly inside the ball... probably fast torque and cancelling it out with turn flattening?..
Mike, it seems like the amateur lead arm adduction angle is a symptom rather than a root cause. Would you say that the amateur's larger delivery adduction angle might be the result of the amateur's leaning a bit too much with the left shoulder? This might create a situation where the left arm can't "outrun" or release around the left shoulder. On the other hand, the pro has a more rotational motion that allows the lead arm to release better and thus for the left arm to open up past its impact position? Just wondering because I feel as though I sometimes lean too much with my left shoulder, which hampers rotation and results in a pulling across the ball and a weak slice/shank like the amateur pictured here. But if I try to rotate while "containing" the left shoulder, I can more easily release the club.
We always like to ask the golfer to show how the left arm should move when we see this issue in a swing. We'll have the stand up straight with the chest remaining square so there isn't bias or lean in the equation. They will always take the left arm as far as possible across their chest. When they do that, they get that left shoulder lean. So from best we can tell with the players we see, it stems from what they think the left arm should do in the backswing.
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Awesome drill -- can't wait to try it this afternoon!!
@@mariamark2166 Let us know how it goes👍
Was definitely hitting the ball further and more solid -- great drill -- everyone needs to incorporate it in their swing. Can you also reply to my earlier comment about the video re abduction? Thanks!!
@@mariamark2166 Sorry, Maria, I must have missed that question. Could you ask it again here?
@@AthleticMotionGolf &lost4
Oh yes I loved this episode of weekend update joke swap
lmao
I’m at the golf course parking lot watching the joke swap playlist and this pops up like a sign from god. Got the laughs in and also figured out how to get lag in my swing. Thought I accidentally added a golf vid in queue
HAHAHAHAH!
Me too, me too.
I can’t believe how much this video has helped my ball striking. First time on range after watching this, I was instantly more consistent with contact. The more comfortable I get with the slightly different motion at takeaway the more yardage I gain. Especially with mid irons. 5 iron went from consistent 185 to well over 200. I’m a single digit handicap and this is my first ever comment on a video. Thanks AMG
What a gold mine of information. Right after watching this I went outside and noticed that my left arm was even further across my body than 44 degrees (not the 18 degree Pro limit). I correct this and I immediately felt my swing come together.correctly. I know you noticed this as well, but there is also a major difference in the head tilt between the Pro and the Amateur. The Pro's head tilts forward and the Amateurs head tilts backward! I made that change as well when I swung outside and noticed that I was making crisp, compressed contact! Thank you again!
Awesome! Great work there👊
So me. Plus my hands are also much higher at that delivery position.
No wonder I can't get shaft lean and a bent right arm at impact.
The recent Golftec discovery now starts to make sense as well, and/as it can only be done correctly with little left arm adduction.
This is probably the most enlightening golf video I ever watched, and I've watched thousands and had hundreds of lessons with top pros and the robot- many, many thanks!
We really appreciate the kind words and glad it helped! What's the recent discovery they made?
This video blowed my mind, the best golf video i have seen, and i have seen alott.
thanks!!
This is hands down the most informative golf video I have ever seen; by a mile. Simply brilliant demonstration of the fine lines between ‘OK’ and ‘Excellent’.
Wow, thanks bud!
"You don't have to be fit, you don't have to be young, you don't have to be hyper flexible..." Are you trying to sweep me off my feet, Mike?
😂NO 😂
I know right!?
They had me at "You don't have to be fit"!
Anyone else from the Michael Che Colin Jost joke swap playlist? lol
Yes, I was so confused when this video came on
AMG is hands down (no pun intended) the best instruction outh there...i have one suggestion...i have been able to implement and physically accomplish 99% of your key knowledge swing concepts (proper pressure and center of mass change, hands faster down from top vertically while simultaneously shallowing club, right arm depth, pelvic angle more descending, etc etc) by Decreasing my back swing by 30-40%!!!!! Just thought id share. It was an epiphany moment...maybe i can slowly add more shoulder turn little by little but today i was hitting my 6i 190 yards with beautiful lower penetrating ball flight and my finish was so controlled and balanced...thanks guys
I really enjoy the gears comparisons you do. It's such an objective measure and like you showed, the more swings you can get, the greater the credibility for your teachings. I actually didn't know you had a paid site. The RUclips videos themselves have been a game changer! Thank you👍
We really appreciate that, Radd, we're glad you enjoy these. We always learn a ton during the process of doing them so it's cool to hear others enjoy them too!
Exactly what I needed. I was putting way to much effort into an extended backswing. Now have effortless power always knew I could produce. Thanks a lot
Because you didn’t give the muscles time to build up or you weren’t using the right ones this video is bs no pro looks like that in their swing their left arm almost reaches their right shoulder. Your never gonna get a 120 mph club head speed without extending your back swing
You have identified an important distinction between the two swings but have not identified the root cause of the problem . Why is the angle less ? You have to correct the root cause rather than try to correct a number arising as a result of another problem. Is this because the amateur a more arms swing then body and shoulder turn ? I believe that this should actually be referred to as an adduction angle (add... towards the midline)as opposed to an abduction angle (ab... away from the midline). Love all the pro vs am videos
You guys are in a different league to everyone else,I’ve learned so much just by watching your channel,🖖👊
Awesome, Ian, thanks so much for watching!🙏💯
This video helped me fix my early extension. I had my left arm WAY across my chest. By keeping my hands more in front of my chest, it shortened my backswing, allowed me to release the club later, and get the shaft lean and compression I've been wanting. Thank you !
great!
Hi there, great vids and great content! One thing I noted is that the Pros all have rotated more than the AM. All the Pros have their lead-shoulder further ahead than the AM, and thus all have rotted their hips more than the Am at arm parallel. Maybe something to look at for the creation of lag. Keep it rolling!
One thing we'll cover in a future episode is that most ams rotate more at the beginning of the downswing only to slow it as the downswing progresses, while the pros do the opposite.
@@AthleticMotionGolf Cool, looking forward to that! Thx
Great video, guys! I've become a bit of a geek over the last 2 years or so when it comes to swing mechanics. I've learned a ton about this and why things need to happen the way they do (I know I still have tons and tons to learn :-), my buddies are sick and tired of me lol).
In regards to the lead arm adduction section of the video, you don't mention much about how to create more shoulder turn by using your hips and legs in the back swing. Not a lot of us are nearly as flexible as Rory and his buddies :-). That might be out of scope for what you're talking about specifically in this video, but for those of us that might not realize how shoulder turn is allowing the pro to move his arm less across his chest, some of us are probably going nuts trying to figure out how the pro is doing this and the amateur is not.
My guess is that because there is so much more shoulder turn from the pros (at least 90 degrees and in some cases a lot more) the lead arm doesn't have to move as much across the chest because the chest is rotating back (with the shoulders) along with that arm. Because we amateurs don't typically have that amount of shoulder turn, we tend to move our lead arm back across our chest more in an attempt to create a bigger back swing and get more club head speed (which, as I understand it, actually creates less speed). I suppose it's worth mentioning that a longer back swing, don'e correctly, has the added benefit of providing more time in the down swing to clear the lead side of the body allowing the hands to move in front of the ball. That creates shaft lean and a delofting of the club face, allowing for more compression and distance. There's more to it than that though! I know!
It would be great to know your thoughts on my comments. I've learned a lot, but I'm sure I got something wrong here! Thanks guys and please keep these awesome videos coming. Instant subscribe and maybe more. Heading to the website now. :-)
I was wondering the exact same thing. i sure wish they would have commented!!
Ok this content alone made me slam that subscribe button! Been looking for this type of detail
Appreciate that slam, Chip!🙏👊
Agreed. I’ve done k vest etc and came away thinking it was physical limits, yet we know many great strikers who aren’t all that flexible or strong- certainly way less than me. Seems like talent! But I’d love to see a video where you show a student go from before to after. That would sell a lot of subscriptions! I’ve got a 16yo who’s opposite of me- all talent and carries the ball 310 with 125mph clubspeed and carries 7i 190 smoothly but he jumps and does a lot of athletic things that he probably doesn’t need to do to hit it solid and close to his distances. But when someone has talent you don’t touch it. In my case, I need all the help I can get. I’ll buy your course and see if I can come close to these positions! I’m also trying to train impact with DST club and the Impact snap and do find it makes my body figure out what to do.
Great analysis. I’ve watched 2 of your videos this morning, and quickly becoming a fan! You’ve got my swing analyzed perfectly…..hips move forward, lag disappears! Good thing I can get it up and down from the truck of my car. Now to fix it!
I think is one of the best channels to watch for strong data analysis to sharpen your game.
Super interesting. Reals vs feels! I was instructed to keep my left arm pinned to my chest a bit longer on the downswing (couple years ago), and it transformed my ball striking. No more fats. Face to path more reliable. No loss in distance -- though probably due to better strike rather than club head speed.
It might be, however, that what I feel -- longer connection in downswing -- might in fact result in better angles coming into impact. Will have to do some slow-mo vids face on to see.
Thank you for your work and your analysis.
Try to get someone to hold the camera up looking down at about 90º to your shoulder tilt. That'll give a better view of what's happening in this department👍
Wow! Such a good video, I had no idea how little they moved their arms across the body.
On to the range.
Have played golf over 20 years now, have NEVER heard or seen this information before. I feel like I've just discovered something! That lead arm adduction for pros just blows my mind. What this is telling me, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that the arms/hands are dropping first, and then at a faster rate than the upper core. Is this correct? I've never downloaded anything off RUclips before, but this will be the first. Is there more great teaching like this on your website? If so, sign me up!
C'mon, we have an entire video series dedicated to this topic! You get immediate access when you sign up😊
This is fantastic analysis - I had never even considered lead arm travel angles as a possible data point until now. Can’t wait to incorporate this on the range tomorrow. Thanks!
Most golfers haven't, but it's made a huge difference to a lot of swings!
I have a concept that creates the magic force at impact, I believe it’s all timing, it’s as if the very butt end of the club and left hand actually stops or slows up to let the right hand lever the club, the hands have to be out front , it’s the shaft flexing and springing toward ball. That’s why the best at impact have their hands so far past center as the club head catches up. It’s this spring lever effect culminated with fast delivery that increases speed.
Yeah a lot of people talk about hand position at address or at the top but I noticed Rory awhile ago how half way down his hands are over his right thigh . then the hands more forward of the ball and then the club head starts to release. Ever since then I’ve tried to do the sa,e thing in my swing.
Valuable insight into the framework of the swing and what it looks like, in comparison. Good stuff!
Can’t wait to get home and start working on this! Thanks so much for your time and expertise!🙏🙏🙏
Outstanding discovery, never seen anything like this! Excellent graphical representations.
Glad you enjoyed it, Brian, we hope it helps. Thanks for checking it out🙏
Thank you guys for doing something that would cost us viewers so much money to get this kind of information. Tremendous help
Awesome video great explanation. And the flight fix series is pure gold
Paul Weyland 👊🙏🏻
Another brilliant video, with very detailed explanation! Watched all of their videos now and I'm putting them all together, so I can have the perfect swing - in about 30 years time!
This was great. Just went to play today after watching this video. I was trying to emulate the concepts (especially the left arm angle going back, and then cupping the wrists). I havent done any of the drills but my ball striking was a lot better. Thanks for the great content!
Awesome way to go! Glad it helped👊
why is this in the weekend update playlist lol
Lmao same I was watching the playlist and then golf.
Hi - great to see the ams vs pros comparisons back again! On the down the line shots though as well as the club face difference, the main thing for me and the mistake I fall into, is the the ams shoulders are still closed to target whereas the pro is at least square on at this point. So the am will end up with more of a flip to release as they have not cleared shoulders, hips etc?? Fixing that is the holy grail !!
Both still have closed shoulders at that point. The big difference with rotation, and one we'll cover in a future episode, is that most ams rotate more out of the top slowing the rotation into impact. The pros tend to do the opposite. So what you're seeing in the frames you mentioned is that happening.
Your discussion of adduction and depth is excellent. Too much confusion follows the stress on left arm connection and synchronization in the backswing- having the left arm follow the rotation too far inside. Instructors spoke of "plugging" the left arm into the chest causing the problem you mention. You very quickly mentioned having the chest rotate away from the left arm- that's my next swing thought.
Yeah I don't recall a pro swing that doesn't do that - great catch! No way to get the hands deep early while doing that as well👍
You mentioned there was a difference in ball speeds between the pro and am given similar swing speeds. Was curious how significant that difference in ball speeds is given similar swing speeds and why that is. Love your videos and your comparisons. You guys rock!
IIRC, it was 5mph in ball speed.
@@AthleticMotionGolf thanks. That's significant. The quality of the contact somehow is better - You can hear the difference it's that "pro sound".
@@ulilohrmann1951Lohrmann undoubtedly the best sound in sports!😊
I would love to see a video on LAA. How you obtain a better position! Awesome video,
I really enjoyed your interesting observations and data on generating lag. Do you have any drills to achieve the ideal LAAs? Thanks!
I'd be VERY interested in that video, as well
Great video, but it got me to thinking of a question. Maybe I missed it but, club head speed about the same pro-am? So, if the ball is met with the same force, why it goes farther with the slightly different technical differences. Those differences don't seem to create better club speed but possibly create better contact? Is contact at the sweet spot of the club face be why the pros hit farther and could these technical differences between pros and ams (very good ams) be what creates better contact and better contact translates to farther distance and better accuracy?
It's all so very interesting. I find your videos the most interesting and informative.
Wow, now I understand more what lag is, thank you for great work.
That pro left arm at delivery is deceptive...and amazing. Thanks guys!
You guys make the best videos. Love the detail in your explanations. Your videos helped improve my golf swing so much.
So is the key of this video to turn your back more and your arms less so that the club stays in front of your chest or something else?
Yes... and it can be somewhat controlled by the right arm. Do not allow the right arm to fold up more than 90 degrees.
AMG - Question for you about a comparison of the pros vs ams when transitioning from top into downswing.
If you look at 9:45 ish here, we see the issue that pro's don't move their lead arms across their chests as much as the ams do - which I think I'm working on improving in my own swing. My question is in the transition - when they start the downswing in earnest - and the body starts to rotate down, does this angle increase for a brief moment before the hands start moving?
Seems to me that (I know the sequencing is very tight) but if the hips move, then body, then arms, then its possible that the pros might allow that angle to increase just before the hands start moving down. Non-3D viewing makes it look that way at times, and it sorta seems like it might feel right - that softer arms at the top could mean that the body rotates and slightly increases that angle as the arms haven't moved yet. Thoughts?
As someone who is technical, for better or worse, this is an interesting video despite perhaps an overload of information for an average golfer. I can handle it. Re the angle on the backswing, isn’t the difference in angles due to the fact that the pro has a greater shoulder turn than the amateur. Many amateurs “pick the club up” and don’t turn enough. You don’t describe what causes this difference in angles. That would be informative I think. BTW, as a woman (single digit but 70), do you have some analyzes of LPGA golfers’ swings? It would be very interesting to compare. With our slower swing speed, especially as a senior, I’m not sure I can get that same lead arm abduction as men might. It’s all about swing speed. No? What are your thoughts? Thank you!!
Great questions, Lois. Doing what you see in this video is what allows golfers to rotate their shoulders better. We see it everyday in lessons with our senior golfers. They have should rotating because what their trying to do with the left arm and where they think it should be at the top is keeping them from more rotation. We've seen this change produce 30º more shoulder rotation from a 66 year old golfer. He felt like he won the lottery😊.
Yes, over the past year we've been collecting more and more LPGA golfers. In fact, in our next Pros vs Ams video, you'll see one of them.
I enjoyed the video. My question is this, the lead arm in pros is about 18 degrees and ams are 43 degrees. Great news only I need to know how to achieve this position. It makes sense that pros have less work to do on the downswing.
Awesome video, per usual. It's funny how complex analysis leads to simplifies answers. Thanks!
It starts with simple pros😄 Thanks bud!
How do you get to the top of the backswing while barely moving your left arm across your chest?
This actually shows that most of the backswing rotation is coming from the hips (~45 degrees) and torso rotation (another ~45 degrees) and the final bit of rotation is achieved through the arm across the chest (~21 degrees) as seen in the video. People that have trouble reaching the top of the backswing are generally not yet very good at achieving the hip and torso rotation required either due to a lack of understanding how to do so correctly or because of a lack in flexibility which can be gained through practicing the right things.
Brilliant again. You guys should have the most subscribers for golf on RUclips.
Anon we will if you’ll just get 1 million of your closest friends to subscribe 😁
I'm confused by the part of the abduction. At the top of the golf swing, you state the left arm is 43 degrees across the chest for amateurs and 18 degrees for pros. But yet in videos of pros I have seen and in some other videos of yours, it appears to show that even with pros, their left arm is almost flat against their chest in the backswing but certainly more than 18 degrees. To only be 18 degrees, it seems to me that your left arm only goes back slightly on the backswing and to the right your stance at address by only 90 degrees. Can you clarify?
Exactly that’s why you can’t listen to a lot of this stuff most of it is made to keep you struggling so you keep coming back for lessons. Pros absolutely have there arm way more across the body than this video. It’s bullshit
@@Jman-co7xw they turn their shoulders/chest more, so the arm doesn't do as much independent movement it's just being carried back by the torso.
Watch the shoulder turn video. It’s about shoulder protraction and retraction. Not arm rotation.
Great content, I'd been missing the old Gears Pro -vs- Am videos.
Brian Felder us too😊
seems like tilting shoulders on plane, and some right scapula retraction in the backswing will help...
Rear scap retraction is a big part of it👍
Mike, im wondering about the amateurs hands at club parallel. In the pro vs ams model it is unclear to me of the hand depth. Should we assume that both hand depths are the same distance away from the body? Do you often see the hands getting “stuck behind” the hips instead of out in-front of the body?
Stuck behind has more to do with height than depth. When the trail arm doesn’t lower enough in the beginning of the downswing, it won’t be low enough late in the downswing. It’s the hands being too high at shaft parallel that has then stuck behind. We typically see ams lower their trail arm less than HALF of what we see the pros do from the top to left arm parallel.
My left arm almost touches my chest on my back swing. I know I am an idiot but when I started playing golf, I read an article by Jimmy Ballard about staying connected and I came away with the idea that my left arm should be connected to my chest and I have never been able to change it. I can definitely see myself in the amateur in this video.
lafreeway that’s a very common interpretation and intent with “stay connected” unfortunately.
Mike, seems the left arm position for the pro MAY be due to a better turn? Is the turn an integral part of why pro's vs. am's have different left arm movement?
I like the video. Do you think this is tied to the feel of keeping the hands in front of the chest and pushing away? When that is my thought, I tend to keep the left arm from crossing over.
another WoW! I liked your video about the HIPTURN, and this one. The most important part of the video for me is the fact that the Left shoulder protraction at the top of the swing is much smaller for the Pros. Yes, I think I know it through my experience, but didnt put that importance on. But as lons as the protraction is big, no one can hit like a Pro, then we need to fix it. Plz tell us "How to have smaller protraction at the top of swing"
Hey guys, love your channel. Clearing up so much misunderstanding, It would be interesting Matt Kuchar left arm. Also we need the next video on this. I think here many of us can improve.
This is startling. So the initial 90° angle results from the shoulder being turned inward. Then the pros keep their hands in front of them by turning the shoulders an extreme amount after fully turning their hips. I assume I have that right... Absolutely fantastic video, I've shared it with several people. Might sign up for the paid stuff!
Awesome if you like this, you’ll love the Swing System 😊
One of the top 10 videos in golf
I would really like to see you demonstrate the left arm positions in the back swing between pro/am. I can't understand how the pro left arm can travel so much less than the amateur's lead arm. Is this because they are getting to the top because of greater chest turn?
It has more to do with shoulder rotation than chest rotation, Don. I think a lot of golfers see those as the same thing, but they are quite different. The shoulders can rotate a lot more because they move independently of one another.
I was genuinely a little sceptical when this video popped up in my feed, but the amateur swing is pretty much my swing. Some great things to work on!
Thanks for checking it out👊
mine too!
10:00 I thought left arm is supposed to be pinned against chest at the top of the swing? How is this poissible with only 18 degrees?
This is so important. Would love you to explain or show in real swing the shoulder movement of the pro. It feels as a very minimal turn.
Or from set-up, just turn till hands reach trailing leg or knee and then mostly arms to the top. Would that be about right?
Thanks!
Lead arm angle. I've found my problem. Thanks Mike.
Very informative and useful, I will use this when training. Many thanks
You have no idea how much this video helped! Thanks so much!
At minute 9 you show the lead arm angling across the body on 18 degrees. The picture above looks like MUCH more than that, and when I watch the pros, it APPEARS as if, as they take their backswing up and back, that their arm crosses their body about 45 to 60 degrees! I don't even know if that is possible, but 18 degrees is hardly any movement. What am I seeing that looks like more ... even in your diagram. Thanks, Glen
Hey guys, awesome video. Another one I like to revisit every so often.
I have a question about the LAA number at address. It looks like all players have the left arm angled towards the center of the body rather than straight out as would be expected with 90 degrees of LAA. You guys have also shown how the hands are more towards the right side or center of the body at impact, how can the left arm have over 90 degrees of LAA with the hands in that position? How is the LAA angle defined exactly?
This was extremely helpful! Thanks guys
Amazing! I've always thought that the pros adduct their arm more and that the lead wrist should be opposite the trail shoulder at the top.
catshitonthecarpet you were on 🎯👊
How many times have we heard a pro say, it feels like my left arm is pinned against my chest and the chest then turns and flings the arms. Feel vs real once again.
Unreal breakdown.
Loving it ♥️🙏🏻 AMG for life ❤️🙏🏻
You're too kind brother🙏
I am curious, how much of a "pros" swing is meant to solely create distance and how much encourages consistency. Eg, if I was more focused on improving my consistency and distance was not a high priority, would I be making the same changes? Obviously we all need some distance but hitting a 7 iron 150 is not difficult, hitting it 150 straight can be, at least for me.... I have been making adjustments to my swing based on your videos and my back is starting to say "stop it"!
Another facinating video from you Guys, so so informative.
Its a valuable knowledge about what I'm doing wrong at the time on the first tee where every body look up you what do you have thank you great video keep up !!!...it
Thanks for watching!🙏
This was eye opening for me and it really shows why we as amateurs don't have good lag, because how can we possibly catch up if our lead arm abduction is so wide on backswing. Question: how can I get my lead arm in front of where it was ad address on the downswing so my hands are in front of my right leg and not behind it?
Jennifer, the key is to not move it too far across in the backswing. It's not something that will be fixed in the downswing if that there's just too much ground to cover coming down.
@@AthleticMotionGolf would the proper backswing thought to be just keep the left arm pinned against the chest on the takeaway and just turn my chest back?
@@jenniferlee8701 Would definitely not recommend that thought. We've got some more stuff on the way to explain this in more detail, but pinning the left arm gets golfers in trouble on the downswing.
@@AthleticMotionGolf : this is Reggie Lee i'm actually using my wife's google account under Jennifer to reply to your videos. I'm in the Palm Springs (Indian Wells, La Quinta) area do you guys ever get out here? IF so I would love to get a lesson or if not, do you recommend someone in this area that teaches with the gear set up and similar methods as yours?
@@jenniferlee8701 Hi Reggie, we haven't been out that way yet, but we are talking to some folks about doing a school out there in 2020. I'll have to look and see who might have a GEARS out that way.
I signed up just to watch flight fix and it didn’t really fix my issue. Makes me wonder if some people need to train wrist conditions to retain lag even if your lead arm is in a good place off the chest????
Can you show a real person (pro vs. am) from side and rear angles?
Great vid. But when I first looked at the pro v am, I thought you were going to point out that the am slid away from his hands.
The amateur's left hip stalled out over the left foot rather than rotated back. This seems like a reason the hands get stuck behind the amateur....they don't have a chance to keep up with the lower body slide.
Love your stuff!!!
Now one can understand how the arms of the pros swing past the torso so well through contact....they don't get buried behind the torso in the backswing.
"they don't get buried behind the torso in the backswing" BINGO!👊
One of your best! Thanks.
Thanks brother👊
best video explanations i've ever seen!
We glad u found it 😊🙏🏻
Is the left arm adduction angle based on the upper arm only? Not to say to bend the elbow a lot, but not hyperextended.. Saying that this is why even with the gears stopped it doesn't appear as if it's past the address at delivery.. Well, that and the angle of the arm to camera.. Kinda like a 90* wrist angle looking like 120* from face on when it's flattened?
I pulled some still frames from a number of pros top of backswings and I'm just not seeing what's claimed here. Pros clearly lay their lead arm across their chests to their opposite shoulder....not mid-chest. Am I missing something here?
Yessir, the biggest being the angle you are most likely seeing it from. The list of things you can't see from video (at least not the standard video angles) is quite large.
Nice to see & practice according.lots of improvement in my games.
That's awesome👏 Thanks for watching!
Sorry should have read club head at 10:00 when hands are at right knee. Have also found it much easier to get the weight fully shifted to the left front leg on the downswing with club head trailing still trailing at 10:00. Massive difference in driving distance 😀
Does this problem with over rotation or moving the left arm, lead to out to in swing path issues too?
Outstanding video. Hugely impactful. Great work!
So, how do you get the pro angle numbers with the lead arm? Can you do a drill video?
Yessir, those angles are the lead arm to shaft.
Tyler Rosenow I’m sorry, I misunderstood you question. We have a whole step-by-step series how to do that (10-12 videos IIRC) along with all the drills inside our membership. Here’s a link if you are interested athleticmotiongolf.com/amg-all-access/?inf_contact_key=5397ad06bcae6e24007ee3618b34662c
The Lead arm is a total eye opener!
Most are not aware, or worse, think it should do the opposite😬
@@AthleticMotionGolf yes, when you look at flexible golfers like Charl Scwartzel etc who has their lead arm straight up in the air, no wonder ppl strive for that despite not having the shoulder rotation to make it work
Wow this just dropped my handicap from 7 to 5 and I’m still working on it thank you so much
Boom!!!👊
Love these videos! They are very informative. I would like to also point out that the ametuer never recentered his body weight. He looked to stay on his back foot.
With the 6 pro diagrams together at 15:20, is their left arm at the outside to the address position during the club at parallel to the ground or is that is that at ball strike?
If it is during club parallel to ground, then what is the arm/shoulder angle during impact and after impact?
Fantastic video and information.
Do the pros get the same delivery position well into the trail leg thigh for driver as you have shown with the 7 iron?
Yessir👍
Interesting how keeping the club more in front of you appears to improves impact.
yessir, it's a big deal😉
Nice, condense it down to one short concise statement. Teachers are totally worthless if they cant communicate effectively.
Confused. Do you mean hands more ahead of the club?
@@mox3608 Directing this question to us, Mox?
Trying to understand ‘club more in front of you’.
Great video, though im confused... i was only just watching one of your old myth buster videos regarding "arms in front of chest" and it showed the pro gets quiet a bit of lead arm abduction?
In that video around 1:30 Shaun says "he lets that angle contract a little bit." That's exactly right and what we covered in more detail here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing you looking at the angle graphic in that video thinking it decreases quite a bit. That's why this has been misunderstood for so long. In order to see that angle correctly, or see the true angle, the camera (your POV) would have to rotate with the shoulder so it stays at 90 to the angle. Then that angle would look completely different. That video was done back in 2016, since then GEARS has updated that graphic and attached the actual real-time angle to it as it moves with the swing. The key point is that unless the camera is rotating with the angle, it will always look skewed from a single fixed camera angle. That making sense?
It's interesting how I learned "grip at the ball" halfway down to no avail. But now I realize when the wrist is cupped..lead edge on arm...yes..but then the pros seem to torque the club and turn the face which in turn moves the grip to point slightly inside the ball... probably fast torque and cancelling it out with turn flattening?..
Mike, it seems like the amateur lead arm adduction angle is a symptom rather than a root cause. Would you say that the amateur's larger delivery adduction angle might be the result of the amateur's leaning a bit too much with the left shoulder? This might create a situation where the left arm can't "outrun" or release around the left shoulder. On the other hand, the pro has a more rotational motion that allows the lead arm to release better and thus for the left arm to open up past its impact position? Just wondering because I feel as though I sometimes lean too much with my left shoulder, which hampers rotation and results in a pulling across the ball and a weak slice/shank like the amateur pictured here. But if I try to rotate while "containing" the left shoulder, I can more easily release the club.
We always like to ask the golfer to show how the left arm should move when we see this issue in a swing. We'll have the stand up straight with the chest remaining square so there isn't bias or lean in the equation. They will always take the left arm as far as possible across their chest. When they do that, they get that left shoulder lean. So from best we can tell with the players we see, it stems from what they think the left arm should do in the backswing.
THIS IS GOLD. GOOD JOB 👏👏👏.