Conflicted paladin archetypes are like my favourite classes to play, it just makes the generic holy crusader so much more interesting to me. Especially when you don't just play it as a 2 dimensional villain and have some nuance.
I am currently in a game with an amazing player. She was playing a cleric. Her cleric had such a hard time being devoted to the teachings of her deity. She had to fight her rage and find peace. She failed at it constantly, but she tried. Valiantly and always she tried to uphold the teachings, it was so far from who her character was it it’s base, that her willingness and faith really carried weight. I loved that character because of that. It was so human and relatable, having a high standard and not meeting it. It just worked so well and was so great. The occasion of violence and wrath did make things spicy, 🤣😂🤣 but we loved every second of it. Your 100% right. In what I said you could swap cleric and Paladin ,deity with oath. Seeing it first had I full on agree with you. You can be evil dark and still have a soul. It makes the character so reachable to you the player as well as the other members of the party and the DM.
Its the paladin with a midrift….. love this subclass and have used it as a bbeg before. The party was able to take him down but it took everything they had at lvl 20
Seriously that mid drift is just to tactical and dangerous!!! Lol. As a bbeg that is gnarly they are so resistant it must of been one awesome everything you got you gotta use now kinda fight.
Oh man I love the oathbreaker. Such a fun rp chance. What if you play a devotion or crown paladin and then you find out the person you made your oath to is actually evil or even the bbeg? You break your oath to them and go crazy leading an undead swarm to kill them.
@@TheSinisterheroes a party with a necromancer and an oathbreaker would be so awesome. The dm: “the campaign really took a dark turn and I’m pretty sure my players are the bbeg at this point”
@@TheSinisterheroes I’ve never been the bbeg. That sounds like it would be fun though. I think you’d enjoy the drakkenheim campaign. Gives a lot of freedom for playing sinister characters
Here's one for you. Paladin of vengeance who seeks revenge for the death of his village. He finds out at the end of his quest that the village he was avenging was secretly an evil cult that was kidnapping children from neighboring villages for sacrifice. Through the eyes of his childhood, he couldn't see what was really happening around him, and the death sentence the local duke applied had been just. He spared the duke, and just took a new oath, he vowed vengeance on hidden worshipers of evil, and his aid to any victims of such cults. It was one of the greatest solutions I have ever seen a player come up with, and his god accepted the change joyfully. The mobility he displayed got him an upgraded warhorse, and a level as a cleric.
I playing an Oath breaker that was more just Oathless. He had the idea of using undead to defeat evil, using undead spared the risk of other life to defend life. Having an undead girallon was ridiculous as his first undead. He named it Ire, civilian interactions were interesting but he was beloved by other players.
@@TheSinisterheroes Let it ride most of the time. Usually was able to use the charisma and his kind face to convince them to back off. Also threats lol
In my world oathbreakers can be oath of fealty (usually evil or lawful gods) ( an example is primus or daanvi) similar to artificer the spells include clockwork undead and clockwork fiend allies)daanvi may be a plane but so is hades.
I’m playing a conquest paladin who commanded a batallion until a fateful day when he launched an attack on a small island country ruled by a powerful mage. The mage had set a trap to involuntarily planeshift the paladin when he reached the capital. His batallion confused and demoralized decided to retreat and leave the island. The paladin got transported to barovia and we played the curse of strahd. When the paladin got back home his men were given to another commander and his father who had seen huge promise in his son now saw him as a dissapointment and all the of the armies officers saw him as a deserter and a failure. With no army and nowhere to go he broke his oath of conquest and became an oathbreaker. He had always been driven to lead and conquer but without an army that would be impossible. He turned to necromancy and started creating an army of undead because those brainless beings would be the only ones he could still lead to battle. His old ambitions of being a great and renowned leader are still with him although twisted and corrupt with the use of necromancy. Now he is building an army of undead to conquer the island to show his father that he is capable of being a great leader and he is not a dissapointment.
That’s cool I like how you used a campaign to continue and evolve the story. That’s a cool hook. I also am a sucker for the guy who returns home from a dark and vile place and after all they went through, being cast aside in disgrace. That energy to cause your Paladin to oathbreak is just so flavorful.
Had a scenario pop into my head watching this: Party just had their collective asses handed to them. They head back into town, nursing their wounds. The discussions end with a consensus: "We need back-up, time to recruit some allies". Half of the party starts walking into the center of town while the others head towards the catacombs. The half going INTO town asks, "Where are you going?", "recruiting" is the reply. "The tavern is this way though", "Yeah, but the dead are this way".
Having DM'd for an Oathbreaker before, I'd say one's mileage with their abilities is partially dependent on who's in the party, as well as the campaign environment. This being said, I think one of a few optimal party compositions, that play well off of the Oathbreaker, could include: Oathbreaker Paladin Battlemaster Fighter (w./a 1 to 2 level dip in Rogue, functioning as a hired mercenary) Death Domain Cleric Circle of Spores Druid Necromancer Wizard College of Lore Bard, Necrodancer variant (w./a 1 level Hexblade dip) The Lore Bard and Oathbreaker could both make use of the Inspiring Leader feat and bolster the entire skeleton party. The Necromancer Wizard, at higher levels, could take command of higher leveled Undead after the Paladin brings them under their control. In tandem, the Oathbreaker's Auras directly aid toward that regard while in combat. The Fighter/Rogue could serve as a front line martial to protect the Druid and Wizard, and could work with the Lore Bard for anything that's Rogue skill-oriented outside of combat. And that's not counting the Mold Earth cantrip being used, pre-combat, to set up various types of ambushes with the aid of the Battlemaster Fighter. (Mold Earth, incidentally, makes a great shovel for digging up the dead.) The Cleric, Druid, and Wizard, provide a fair bit of intersectionality between their abilities, as it relates to the Undead. And that's not counting any controll-based spell combos that they could pull off together. For a 6 PC party, this can do quite a bit both in and out of combat. I personally see these 6 working together under the guidance of any number of deities related to undeath, in order to either bring ruin to a game world, or to alternatively shed light on the benefits of incorporating undeath into a kingdom's functionality.
Wow that’s one dangerous party to be rolling with. That party alone could run a dm into the insane asylum lol. I do love party synergy it truly works out well. In combat and as well as role playing. Having other party members being cool and fond of the undead makes oathbreakers death domain clerics and necromancer wizards this like in direct light dark commanders.
Watching this I had a scenario pop in my head, one that might incorporate someone's backstory. The party lays broken, defeated. The evil wizard looks upon the paladin with a wicked smile as he says "my my, seems that we have a paladin in our midst. Tell you what, I'm giving you a choice, save your party. Or save this child" the wizard pulled a chained child towards him, noticing who it was the paladin gritted his teeth as he raised himself to his feet. "I SHALL SAVE BOTH" he shouted, causing the wizard to laugh. In the end both the party and his ward lay dead, alongside his broken oaths.
That is a great set up. Having the hero already accept a failure, as a back story, gives you the whole campaign to work out the story. In backstory I find it’s more about setting up why your adventuring, then a bunch of horrible things that happen to you, or really awesome stuff you have done.
@@TheSinisterheroes I fully agree, as a hobbyist writer I come to that issue quite often. As sometimes I don't need to know someone's entire life, just their reason for doing what they're doing. It's a great exercise in creative problem solving.
Yeah Lol purple hair and everything!! It’s cool though that they incorporated a way for the class to have consequences for there action. Sexy dark consequences
To be honest, I am not sure if DM is going to let PC play this subclass. lv 7 Hateful Aura is one thing but for lv 3 Control Undead can cause serious problem as there are deadly low lv undeads such as Ghosts(possession), Shadows (deadly Strength Drain) or Banshees (deadly wailing and fear effect) which all has awe striking amount of resistancrs. As WildMike said, it would be great opponent. However, it would be DM's headache as PC.
I don’t for see it as that much of an issue due to the dm controlling the monsters they put in. The shadow strength drain is cool but remember it has 12 ac and 16 hp the ghost is significantly tankier but still 11 ac. And the banshees abilities do hit every non undead character. Yes they are strong abilities but they come down to what they put in. The higher level the stronger the ability is. Talking to your dm is your best bet with this class anyway because of how you become an oath breaker.
I find the oathbreaker very interesting because this subclass goes directly against the nature of a paladin, paladins are the embodiment of their word of promises and draws power from that but oathbreakers draw power from the commitment of going against the norm of paladins and I personally see being an oathbreaker as being frowned upon even amongst evil paladins because all paladins good and evil alike pride themselves on the fact that they stick to their word which is why all Deities value paladins so much a god is not going to turn down a paladin unless the paladin is an oathbreaker because the god can't guarantee the paladins loyalty at all times for obvious reasons and I don't think that any other class has a subclass that inherently goes against the nature of the subclass which makes the paladin extremely unique in this case
I agree with most of what you say. There’s only a slight disagreement, in that paladins don’t need a god. There word is all they need. Everything you mentioned i can see. Oathbreakers are frowned upon across the board the word is meaningless. It becomes a thing where it’s just hatred that fuels them. There’s evil that can work together and there’s evil that’s too unpredictable, I find the oathbreaker is like that.
@@TheSinisterheroes I feel like there's been a bit of a misunderstanding here you see when I say a deity is not going to turn down a paladin it's under the perception of the deity not the paladin I'm well aware that paladins draw power from there word and I'm aware they don't need a deity the reason why I think paladins are so valuable to Gods is because of the quality of worship they provide and I think I didn't make that clearer from the beginning so I apologize for that poor communication on my part
How would a Dhampir Oathbreaker work? My character got bit and turned, went to his home to go into hiding but found his family dead due to the fear of the townspeople and went on a rampage because of what he witnessed and his new curse killing some of the villagers nearby. How would I go about this? I’ve looked everywhere for tips but there’s not much info on the two together.
That works just fine. The connection between how you got turned and broke your oath just needs to make sense in a story format. With what you have I would just twerk the story a little. Maybe what turned you attacked your family in the same moment. You survived, but the villagers you swore to protect led the vampire to you, or sold you out. That way is easier to make your story kill who you previously were. You could better explain your rampage after that. Just a thought story wise you don’t have to use it, your works fine as it is. Mechanically they are great! Throw in the bite from time to time taking the additional healing or the bonus works well. Make sure to use spider climb. If you’re fighting on a wall it’s harder to be surrounded in combat. If your using a pike or a reach weapon use the walls and ceiling to manipulate your self out of there range. At higher levels stand in poison spells like cloud kill. The dhampir is great for anything melee and the paladin is one of the best designed classes. It works really really well together.
Oh absolutely they make amazing villains. Throw in an army of glass cannon skeletons, a death domain cleric and you have a damn near perfect set up for an evil army conquering towns and razing the dead. Scary easy to put fear into party members let them be from the same town and have to survive as the first few sessions of the campaign.
Was planning on building a Fallen Aasimar Oathbreaker Paladin. He broke his oath of devotion by accidentally killed an innocent. He’s now searching for the family and is seeking absolution from the family.
You can absolutely try and rock that story, though I am Sorry but I disagree. It seems to me like he’s an oath of redemption Paladin. Cus that’s the path he’s on seeming there own redemption. An oath breaker isn’t really trying to uphold a new oath. I think the story really dose hold. Just maybe as for searching for absolution, you replace it with something along the lines of how there oath, lead to this loss. That regret and guilt, transforming them into what they are now. The absolution could be something that happens, maybe as part of the characters arch if your playing that kind of game. though to be actively searching for it, to me really doesn’t vibe with what I see an oath breaker to be. Sorry to disagree, but I’d love to hear how it works for you.
@@TheSinisterheroes love the idea of a Redemption Paladin and after he find his absolution he can change into a a new subclass. He doesn’t want to be a Oathbreaker much like when I was using. I didn’t want to be but until I found what “healed” me.
I like that. I like that once the character accomplishes there quest for absolution they drop there armor and become something else. It’s cool it’s like movie thematic.
I'm making a death knight class. I tried to make it a subclass but it doesn't work at all. Too many healing spells & too little necromancy spells. According to the lore, death knights can't use healing spells at all.
Have you looked at older editions? There was hellfire as an augmentation to spells that might be right up your ally. When I think of death knights I think of a martial class that strikes with such dark magic that it curses those who survive there attacks. How are you building it ? Like what is your base idea for it ?
@@TheSinisterheroes thank you very much for this counsel. I'll look into the older editions Death Knights skills. On this class I chose to make it small, at least until I gain some more experience on class making, race locking it into the reborn race (you could be an elf, tortle or whatever before the transformation). I'm making the Death Knight based on the paladin & oathbreaker subclass. Though Death Knights lose their Lay on Hands & get ( I based this from their lore) a fear on touch ability. If they are touched - be it a touch range spell or a normal touch - grappled or grabbing onto him, the creature must make a wisdom save against the characters spell DC (CHA). If the target fails they are frightened until the end of the death Knights next turn. If the target succeeds the effect fails & they are immune to it for 24h. The first two main differences is that the DK has to choose one of their weapons to be their soul blade. Only the soul blade can use certain abilities of the class. To solve the "magical weapon" problem I chose to make it so they can spend 8 hours attuning their blades to the magical weapon. At the end of the process the magical weapon becomes inert and mundane forever. The effect is permanent until they attune to another weapon (a.k.a. it can't stack). On the fighting style I chose to add a parry option, (as a reaction if a target that is seen by the Knight hits a melee attack - the knight must be wielding a melee weapon too, they can roll 1d6 and add it to their AC, potentially making the attack miss.) The armor that they use is stuck to their bodies (according to the lore of lord soth), so I opted to make the starting armor a piece of armor called "The Knights plates" it weighs the same as plate armor, gives disadvantage on stealth rolls, but (as it has been damaged) it starts with 16 AC. The armor can be damaged and removed only throughout powerful magic, but it starts to reform on the characters body immediately. If the whole set is removed it reforms in 1 hour. The armor can be repaired by a professional for the full price of another armor (ex: 200gp for splint, 1500gp for plate). Divine sense is the same. The smite. The smite is a tricky one. The easy part is making the smite do necrotic damage & reflavouring it to be the death knight just passing it through the enemies armor, naming it "Ghostly Strike" (as is in the lore); and - instead of dealing an extra 1d8 against undead - it deals 1d8 extra to paralyzed and frightened enemies. The monster itself has an auto 4d8 necrotic damage, but damn, how the hell do I give this to a player character? I opted to give it on level 20 and nerf it to give 1d8 + 1d8 for each spell slot above level 1. Channel divinity is exactly the same as the Oathbreaker one. Extra attack. You get one at level 5 (okay) but I'm really debating if this class should be able to attack 3 times in a turn. I'm leaning a bit on no (would be glad to get an opinion). Level 6, the paladins trump card against traps and charm effects. As this creature doesn't have any divine favor, I gave them the iconic Hellfire orb. The main rule I made to myself is that the orb can't outshine the wizards fireball at early levels. Made it a 3d6 fire 3d6 necrotic at level 6; 6d6 fire, 6d6 necrotic at level 10, 10d6 fire, 10d6 necrotic at level 14. The main debate I have right now about this orb is if it should be a single use 24h cool down spell or if it could be used multiple times a day (I'm leaning on either half the proficiency bonus or just adding another use of this orb at level 17. Level 7 is exactly the same as the Oathbreaker. Level 10 is the same as a paladin. Level 11 is the same, except it's locked to the soul weapon and deals necrotic damage. At level 14 they can touch a creature and force it to make a wisdom save against the characters Spell DC. If they fail, they are paralyzed for 1 minute (they can repeat the test at the start of their turn). If the creature is willing, the knight can remove any number of magical effects from the creature, but it stays paralyzed for 1d8 hours. This effect can be used a number of times equal to the Knights charisma modifier. (Resets at a long rest). At level 15 they get resistance to necrotic damage and magical resistance. At level 20 they gain immunity to poison, necrotic, exhaustion, poisoned, advantage on concentration saving throws & intimidation checks. And the permanent effects of the Ghostly strike. All undead controlled by him get 15 temporary hit points that last for 1 hour after he gets at least 300ft away from them. The spell list is fully remade to give them a more "battle necromancer" vibe and removing the healing spells that paladins get. I'm sorry that this is long, and I'm sorry for any grammatical errors, etc. I wrote this class on my native tongue and it's really late rn lol. I'll be glad to receive any advice you'd be willing to give.
It has a lot of concepts in it though in truth I think you need to step away from the Paladin. The reason I say this is it’s power base is too big. You can step away from smites as a whole and make it just a specialized attack x amount of times per short rest. If your having undead you can substitute the smite damage your losing by empowering them. You can make any undead do only necrotic damage, and have there necrotic damage pierce spell immunity. Buff there attack dmg by your proficiency bonus so it scales a little. It seems small but when you have like 3 undead that’s big jump. I know death knights have this connection to paladins , but if you don’t step away from it, it will always limit this to be a subclass. It seems like you have so much to work with. There’s a few videos that Jeremy Crawford did about making subclasses that really is eye opening to making a real class you should check it out. Just keep refining what you have then substitute variations at levels as a subclass. You have great ideas one to bolster the ghostly strike one to focus on undead and maybe one based around bolstering the armor that you made. Don’t fear rewriting.have fun with it. Have your DM’s take a look at it see if they would allow it in games. It will take some time to get it to work but take the criticism and keep refining.
@@TheSinisterheroes im glad you got back to me. The Pally being overpowered is indeed holding a lot of concepts back & the years of TTRPGs experience echo True in your words. I'll watch the video you recommended (already started skimming through the older edtions). I'll send more comments if I feel the need to. Btw, I've rewriten this class several times hahaha, the more I rewrite the closer it gets to being playable. On the stage that it is it can be used, it's just rough around the edges.
Your getting there. Once you do finally get those edges roughed down seriously put it up on gm binder and dnd beyond. Gm binder for some cash rewards for it being cool dnd beyond cus the rating system could theoretically give you a concept as to how people may see it.
I definitely would. If your in a game that is very rp oriented it should be meaningful breaking that oath. But if your not and it’s just not going to be part of the campaign then yeah sure just be an oath breaker from the beginning.
Going to play one and see how it goes, but seriously, the big things you go on about don't even come on line until the typical campaign is over. Fear isn't a win button when you're facing mobs of your CR level with great saves. A skeleton is a one shot for anything over a few CR (which, admittedly is an attack that didn't hit you); the barbarian has been rocking damage resistance since the start, and you're excited you finally have it to face dragons? Hell, any time you get it is ok, but it barely keeps up with the enemies by the time you get it. Oooo! The doomy-gloomy aura! At level 20. Meh. Twilight Cleric rocks one at level one. Sure, this one does a little damage and causes disadvantage but if you can't lay the smack down and cause disadvantage by level 20, that's just pathetic. And of course virtually no one plays the game at 20.
As a Paladin you really only gain domain spells and channel divinity at level 3. Your next ability from the sacred paths you take dosent come till level 7. You are right that there abilities do come on late. It’s rather unique in that it dosent have special abilities, though it think that is due to the importance of smite for all paladins across the board. Considering most campaigns end at around level 11 there are miles of unused abilities. I love fear I really do. Every chance I get to use it I do. You are right it isn’t an instant win, whole heartedly you are right. Though if you do get a fear off it dose impact the combat. Enemy saves are a problem the higher level you go, also some enemies are just better at certain saves and have immunities to various conditions. I really wish more campaigns ended at level 20. It is an experience that I hope everyone gets to do once. I really don’t have any counter point to stand in opposition with. Fighting large mobs of a significant CR can be deadly How ever you decide to face that with your party may require you just single focus your damage on high priority targets, and not bother with fear or other spells of the like. That’s tried and true Paladin nothing wrong with it it works it’s nasty and fun to be honest. I try to go over the skills you gain within a theory of how it could be utilized. I feel as if I would be doing a disservice if I didn’t go in-depth with things that I really enjoy about them, or concepts I see with them. I really hope you enjoy your Paladin. Have you picked a race and backstory yet? I’d love to hear who you character is or why they chose to be an oath breaker
I am currently playing through Avernus Rising with my table and am playing a “Conquest Paladin of the Raven Queen”, though I am actually an Oath Breaker of Zariel…. Something my DM worked out with me… we are gonna confront the Party at lvl 20 when we reach Zariel
Oh really? That’s quite the twist, I love it. So how dose your character feel about the party at this point? Are they but tools to be used ?, or are they so much more?
Conflicted paladin archetypes are like my favourite classes to play, it just makes the generic holy crusader so much more interesting to me. Especially when you don't just play it as a 2 dimensional villain and have some nuance.
I am currently in a game with an amazing player. She was playing a cleric. Her cleric had such a hard time being devoted to the teachings of her deity. She had to fight her rage and find peace. She failed at it constantly, but she tried. Valiantly and always she tried to uphold the teachings, it was so far from who her character was it it’s base, that her willingness and faith really carried weight. I loved that character because of that. It was so human and relatable, having a high standard and not meeting it. It just worked so well and was so great. The occasion of violence and wrath did make things spicy, 🤣😂🤣 but we loved every second of it.
Your 100% right. In what I said you could swap cleric and Paladin ,deity with oath. Seeing it first had I full on agree with you. You can be evil dark and still have a soul. It makes the character so reachable to you the player as well as the other members of the party and the DM.
@@TheSinisterheroes exactly, people arent are black and white. Sounds like you guys are having a blast.
We are it’s nice to have a bunch a people that are really into role playing
Its the paladin with a midrift….. love this subclass and have used it as a bbeg before. The party was able to take him down but it took everything they had at lvl 20
Seriously that mid drift is just to tactical and dangerous!!! Lol. As a bbeg that is gnarly they are so resistant it must of been one awesome everything you got you gotta use now kinda fight.
Oh man I love the oathbreaker. Such a fun rp chance. What if you play a devotion or crown paladin and then you find out the person you made your oath to is actually evil or even the bbeg? You break your oath to them and go crazy leading an undead swarm to kill them.
It is the perfect set up for a characters story, and it gives you this menacing presence in the world. I love it lol
@@TheSinisterheroes a party with a necromancer and an oathbreaker would be so awesome. The dm: “the campaign really took a dark turn and I’m pretty sure my players are the bbeg at this point”
I am always the bbeg in the campaign lol one way or the other LOL
@@TheSinisterheroes I’ve never been the bbeg. That sounds like it would be fun though. I think you’d enjoy the drakkenheim campaign. Gives a lot of freedom for playing sinister characters
@@Trial88 let me tell you the dungeon dudes are a very powerful driving force in inspiring me to do this channel
Here's one for you.
Paladin of vengeance who seeks revenge for the death of his village. He finds out at the end of his quest that the village he was avenging was secretly an evil cult that was kidnapping children from neighboring villages for sacrifice. Through the eyes of his childhood, he couldn't see what was really happening around him, and the death sentence the local duke applied had been just. He spared the duke, and just took a new oath, he vowed vengeance on hidden worshipers of evil, and his aid to any victims of such cults. It was one of the greatest solutions I have ever seen a player come up with, and his god accepted the change joyfully. The mobility he displayed got him an upgraded warhorse, and a level as a cleric.
Sorry,
Nobility
Not
Mobility
Autocorrect is the friggin' devil!!!!
I love when DM’s reward players for going full throttle on there role play and going out of there way to tell the story
Because your idea was good asf I’m using it as a base for my first dming campaign. You should try to write one shots or full campaigns🗡⚔️
I've been DMing since 1982.
I've had 4 decades of campaigns and one-shots to share.
Hit me up if you need any help/ideas
I playing an Oath breaker that was more just Oathless. He had the idea of using undead to defeat evil, using undead spared the risk of other life to defend life.
Having an undead girallon was ridiculous as his first undead. He named it Ire, civilian interactions were interesting but he was beloved by other players.
That is a very intelligent way of looking at using the undead. Did you have to disguise it in towns or while traveling, or did you just let it ride?
@@TheSinisterheroes Let it ride most of the time. Usually was able to use the charisma and his kind face to convince them to back off. Also threats lol
@@TheSinisterheroes also why antagonize a man walking with a Lion (Steed) and an undead girallon? As long as I was polite they were just uncomfortable
I love that, embrace your strength and let it ride!!!
In my world oathbreakers can be oath of fealty (usually evil or lawful gods) ( an example is primus or daanvi) similar to artificer the spells include clockwork undead and clockwork fiend allies)daanvi may be a plane but so is hades.
I’m playing a conquest paladin who commanded a batallion until a fateful day when he launched an attack on a small island country ruled by a powerful mage. The mage had set a trap to involuntarily planeshift the paladin when he reached the capital. His batallion confused and demoralized decided to retreat and leave the island. The paladin got transported to barovia and we played the curse of strahd. When the paladin got back home his men were given to another commander and his father who had seen huge promise in his son now saw him as a dissapointment and all the of the armies officers saw him as a deserter and a failure. With no army and nowhere to go he broke his oath of conquest and became an oathbreaker. He had always been driven to lead and conquer but without an army that would be impossible. He turned to necromancy and started creating an army of undead because those brainless beings would be the only ones he could still lead to battle. His old ambitions of being a great and renowned leader are still with him although twisted and corrupt with the use of necromancy. Now he is building an army of undead to conquer the island to show his father that he is capable of being a great leader and he is not a dissapointment.
That’s cool I like how you used a campaign to continue and evolve the story. That’s a cool hook.
I also am a sucker for the guy who returns home from a dark and vile place and after all they went through, being cast aside in disgrace. That energy to cause your Paladin to oathbreak is just so flavorful.
Had a scenario pop into my head watching this: Party just had their collective asses handed to them. They head back into town, nursing their wounds. The discussions end with a consensus: "We need back-up, time to recruit some allies". Half of the party starts walking into the center of town while the others head towards the catacombs. The half going INTO town asks, "Where are you going?", "recruiting" is the reply. "The tavern is this way though", "Yeah, but the dead are this way".
Oooooo I love that
Having DM'd for an Oathbreaker before, I'd say one's mileage with their abilities is partially dependent on who's in the party, as well as the campaign environment.
This being said, I think one of a few optimal party compositions, that play well off of the Oathbreaker, could include:
Oathbreaker Paladin
Battlemaster Fighter (w./a 1 to 2 level dip in Rogue, functioning as a hired mercenary)
Death Domain Cleric
Circle of Spores Druid
Necromancer Wizard
College of Lore Bard, Necrodancer variant (w./a 1 level Hexblade dip)
The Lore Bard and Oathbreaker could both make use of the Inspiring Leader feat and bolster the entire skeleton party.
The Necromancer Wizard, at higher levels, could take command of higher leveled Undead after the Paladin brings them under their control. In tandem, the Oathbreaker's Auras directly aid toward that regard while in combat.
The Fighter/Rogue could serve as a front line martial to protect the Druid and Wizard, and could work with the Lore Bard for anything that's Rogue skill-oriented outside of combat. And that's not counting the Mold Earth cantrip being used, pre-combat, to set up various types of ambushes with the aid of the Battlemaster Fighter. (Mold Earth, incidentally, makes a great shovel for digging up the dead.)
The Cleric, Druid, and Wizard, provide a fair bit of intersectionality between their abilities, as it relates to the Undead. And that's not counting any controll-based spell combos that they could pull off together.
For a 6 PC party, this can do quite a bit both in and out of combat. I personally see these 6 working together under the guidance of any number of deities related to undeath, in order to either bring ruin to a game world, or to alternatively shed light on the benefits of incorporating undeath into a kingdom's functionality.
Wow that’s one dangerous party to be rolling with. That party alone could run a dm into the insane asylum lol. I do love party synergy it truly works out well. In combat and as well as role playing. Having other party members being cool and fond of the undead makes oathbreakers death domain clerics and necromancer wizards this like in direct light dark commanders.
Watching this I had a scenario pop in my head, one that might incorporate someone's backstory.
The party lays broken, defeated. The evil wizard looks upon the paladin with a wicked smile as he says "my my, seems that we have a paladin in our midst. Tell you what, I'm giving you a choice, save your party. Or save this child" the wizard pulled a chained child towards him, noticing who it was the paladin gritted his teeth as he raised himself to his feet.
"I SHALL SAVE BOTH" he shouted, causing the wizard to laugh. In the end both the party and his ward lay dead, alongside his broken oaths.
That is a great set up. Having the hero already accept a failure, as a back story, gives you the whole campaign to work out the story.
In backstory I find it’s more about setting up why your adventuring, then a bunch of horrible things that happen to you, or really awesome stuff you have done.
@@TheSinisterheroes I fully agree, as a hobbyist writer I come to that issue quite often. As sometimes I don't need to know someone's entire life, just their reason for doing what they're doing. It's a great exercise in creative problem solving.
Exactly the motivation and the reason is what defines how a journey works.
It's like a paladin going through his emo phase.
Yeah Lol purple hair and everything!! It’s cool though that they incorporated a way for the class to have consequences for there action. Sexy dark consequences
To be honest, I am not sure if DM is going to let PC play this subclass.
lv 7 Hateful Aura is one thing but for lv 3 Control Undead can cause serious problem as there are deadly low lv undeads such as Ghosts(possession), Shadows (deadly Strength Drain) or Banshees (deadly wailing and fear effect) which all has awe striking amount of resistancrs.
As WildMike said, it would be great opponent. However, it would be DM's headache as PC.
I don’t for see it as that much of an issue due to the dm controlling the monsters they put in. The shadow strength drain is cool but remember it has 12 ac and 16 hp the ghost is significantly tankier but still 11 ac. And the banshees abilities do hit every non undead character. Yes they are strong abilities but they come down to what they put in. The higher level the stronger the ability is. Talking to your dm is your best bet with this class anyway because of how you become an oath breaker.
I find the oathbreaker very interesting because this subclass goes directly against the nature of a paladin, paladins are the embodiment of their word of promises and draws power from that but oathbreakers draw power from the commitment of going against the norm of paladins and I personally see being an oathbreaker as being frowned upon even amongst evil paladins because all paladins good and evil alike pride themselves on the fact that they stick to their word which is why all Deities value paladins so much a god is not going to turn down a paladin unless the paladin is an oathbreaker because the god can't guarantee the paladins loyalty at all times for obvious reasons and I don't think that any other class has a subclass that inherently goes against the nature of the subclass which makes the paladin extremely unique in this case
I agree with most of what you say. There’s only a slight disagreement, in that paladins don’t need a god. There word is all they need.
Everything you mentioned i can see. Oathbreakers are frowned upon across the board the word is meaningless. It becomes a thing where it’s just hatred that fuels them. There’s evil that can work together and there’s evil that’s too unpredictable, I find the oathbreaker is like that.
@@TheSinisterheroes I feel like there's been a bit of a misunderstanding here you see when I say a deity is not going to turn down a paladin it's under the perception of the deity not the paladin I'm well aware that paladins draw power from there word and I'm aware they don't need a deity the reason why I think paladins are so valuable to Gods is because of the quality of worship they provide and I think I didn't make that clearer from the beginning so I apologize for that poor communication on my part
How would a Dhampir Oathbreaker work? My character got bit and turned, went to his home to go into hiding but found his family dead due to the fear of the townspeople and went on a rampage because of what he witnessed and his new curse killing some of the villagers nearby. How would I go about this? I’ve looked everywhere for tips but there’s not much info on the two together.
That works just fine. The connection between how you got turned and broke your oath just needs to make sense in a story format. With what you have I would just twerk the story a little. Maybe what turned you attacked your family in the same moment. You survived, but the villagers you swore to protect led the vampire to you, or sold you out. That way is easier to make your story kill who you previously were. You could better explain your rampage after that. Just a thought story wise you don’t have to use it, your works fine as it is.
Mechanically they are great! Throw in the bite from time to time taking the additional healing or the bonus works well. Make sure to use spider climb. If you’re fighting on a wall it’s harder to be surrounded in combat. If your using a pike or a reach weapon use the walls and ceiling to manipulate your self out of there range. At higher levels stand in poison spells like cloud kill.
The dhampir is great for anything melee and the paladin is one of the best designed classes. It works really really well together.
Thinking if I could make an NPC Oathbreaker Paladin serve as a villain
Oh absolutely they make amazing villains. Throw in an army of glass cannon skeletons, a death domain cleric and you have a damn near perfect set up for an evil army conquering towns and razing the dead. Scary easy to put fear into party members let them be from the same town and have to survive as the first few sessions of the campaign.
Thanks for the help man
Happy to help!!!
Was planning on building a Fallen Aasimar Oathbreaker Paladin. He broke his oath of devotion by accidentally killed an innocent. He’s now searching for the family and is seeking absolution from the family.
You can absolutely try and rock that story, though I am Sorry but I disagree. It seems to me like he’s an oath of redemption Paladin. Cus that’s the path he’s on seeming there own redemption.
An oath breaker isn’t really trying to uphold a new oath.
I think the story really dose hold. Just maybe as for searching for absolution, you replace it with something along the lines of how there oath, lead to this loss. That regret and guilt, transforming them into what they are now.
The absolution could be something that happens, maybe as part of the characters arch if your playing that kind of game. though to be actively searching for it, to me really doesn’t vibe with what I see an oath breaker to be.
Sorry to disagree, but I’d love to hear how it works for you.
@@TheSinisterheroes love the idea of a Redemption Paladin and after he find his absolution he can change into a a new subclass. He doesn’t want to be a Oathbreaker much like when I was using. I didn’t want to be but until I found what “healed” me.
I like that. I like that once the character accomplishes there quest for absolution they drop there armor and become something else. It’s cool it’s like movie thematic.
I'm making a death knight class.
I tried to make it a subclass but it doesn't work at all.
Too many healing spells & too little necromancy spells.
According to the lore, death knights can't use healing spells at all.
Have you looked at older editions? There was hellfire as an augmentation to spells that might be right up your ally. When I think of death knights I think of a martial class that strikes with such dark magic that it curses those who survive there attacks. How are you building it ? Like what is your base idea for it ?
@@TheSinisterheroes thank you very much for this counsel. I'll look into the older editions Death Knights skills.
On this class I chose to make it small, at least until I gain some more experience on class making, race locking it into the reborn race (you could be an elf, tortle or whatever before the transformation).
I'm making the Death Knight based on the paladin & oathbreaker subclass.
Though Death Knights lose their Lay on Hands & get ( I based this from their lore) a fear on touch ability. If they are touched - be it a touch range spell or a normal touch - grappled or grabbing onto him, the creature must make a wisdom save against the characters spell DC (CHA). If the target fails they are frightened until the end of the death Knights next turn. If the target succeeds the effect fails & they are immune to it for 24h.
The first two main differences is that the DK has to choose one of their weapons to be their soul blade. Only the soul blade can use certain abilities of the class. To solve the "magical weapon" problem I chose to make it so they can spend 8 hours attuning their blades to the magical weapon. At the end of the process the magical weapon becomes inert and mundane forever. The effect is permanent until they attune to another weapon (a.k.a. it can't stack).
On the fighting style I chose to add a parry option, (as a reaction if a target that is seen by the Knight hits a melee attack - the knight must be wielding a melee weapon too, they can roll 1d6 and add it to their AC, potentially making the attack miss.)
The armor that they use is stuck to their bodies (according to the lore of lord soth), so I opted to make the starting armor a piece of armor called "The Knights plates" it weighs the same as plate armor, gives disadvantage on stealth rolls, but (as it has been damaged) it starts with 16 AC. The armor can be damaged and removed only throughout powerful magic, but it starts to reform on the characters body immediately. If the whole set is removed it reforms in 1 hour.
The armor can be repaired by a professional for the full price of another armor (ex: 200gp for splint, 1500gp for plate).
Divine sense is the same.
The smite.
The smite is a tricky one.
The easy part is making the smite do necrotic damage & reflavouring it to be the death knight just passing it through the enemies armor, naming it "Ghostly Strike" (as is in the lore); and - instead of dealing an extra 1d8 against undead - it deals 1d8 extra to paralyzed and frightened enemies.
The monster itself has an auto 4d8 necrotic damage, but damn, how the hell do I give this to a player character? I opted to give it on level 20 and nerf it to give 1d8 + 1d8 for each spell slot above level 1.
Channel divinity is exactly the same as the Oathbreaker one.
Extra attack. You get one at level 5 (okay) but I'm really debating if this class should be able to attack 3 times in a turn. I'm leaning a bit on no (would be glad to get an opinion).
Level 6, the paladins trump card against traps and charm effects.
As this creature doesn't have any divine favor, I gave them the iconic Hellfire orb. The main rule I made to myself is that the orb can't outshine the wizards fireball at early levels. Made it a 3d6 fire 3d6 necrotic at level 6; 6d6 fire, 6d6 necrotic at level 10, 10d6 fire, 10d6 necrotic at level 14.
The main debate I have right now about this orb is if it should be a single use 24h cool down spell or if it could be used multiple times a day (I'm leaning on either half the proficiency bonus or just adding another use of this orb at level 17.
Level 7 is exactly the same as the Oathbreaker.
Level 10 is the same as a paladin.
Level 11 is the same, except it's locked to the soul weapon and deals necrotic damage.
At level 14 they can touch a creature and force it to make a wisdom save against the characters Spell DC. If they fail, they are paralyzed for 1 minute (they can repeat the test at the start of their turn).
If the creature is willing, the knight can remove any number of magical effects from the creature, but it stays paralyzed for 1d8 hours.
This effect can be used a number of times equal to the Knights charisma modifier. (Resets at a long rest).
At level 15 they get resistance to necrotic damage and magical resistance.
At level 20 they gain immunity to poison, necrotic, exhaustion, poisoned, advantage on concentration saving throws & intimidation checks.
And the permanent effects of the Ghostly strike.
All undead controlled by him get 15 temporary hit points that last for 1 hour after he gets at least 300ft away from them.
The spell list is fully remade to give them a more "battle necromancer" vibe and removing the healing spells that paladins get.
I'm sorry that this is long, and I'm sorry for any grammatical errors, etc.
I wrote this class on my native tongue and it's really late rn lol.
I'll be glad to receive any advice you'd be willing to give.
It has a lot of concepts in it though in truth I think you need to step away from the Paladin. The reason I say this is it’s power base is too big.
You can step away from smites as a whole and make it just a specialized attack x amount of times per short rest. If your having undead you can substitute the smite damage your losing by empowering them. You can make any undead do only necrotic damage, and have there necrotic damage pierce spell immunity. Buff there attack dmg by your proficiency bonus so it scales a little. It seems small but when you have like 3 undead that’s big jump.
I know death knights have this connection to paladins , but if you don’t step away from it, it will always limit this to be a subclass. It seems like you have so much to work with. There’s a few videos that Jeremy Crawford did about making subclasses that really is eye opening to making a real class you should check it out.
Just keep refining what you have then substitute variations at levels as a subclass. You have great ideas one to bolster the ghostly strike one to focus on undead and maybe one based around bolstering the armor that you made.
Don’t fear rewriting.have fun with it. Have your DM’s take a look at it see if they would allow it in games. It will take some time to get it to work but take the criticism and keep refining.
@@TheSinisterheroes im glad you got back to me. The Pally being overpowered is indeed holding a lot of concepts back & the years of TTRPGs experience echo True in your words.
I'll watch the video you recommended (already started skimming through the older edtions).
I'll send more comments if I feel the need to.
Btw, I've rewriten this class several times hahaha, the more I rewrite the closer it gets to being playable.
On the stage that it is it can be used, it's just rough around the edges.
Your getting there. Once you do finally get those edges roughed down seriously put it up on gm binder and dnd beyond. Gm binder for some cash rewards for it being cool dnd beyond cus the rating system could theoretically give you a concept as to how people may see it.
To bad that Aura of hate does not affect bows, the aura states that it must be a melee weapon attack
As a Paladin your locked into melee anyway so it kind of tracks
Should I ask my DM if I should start as path breaker or should I choose a different sun class first? Ex: oath of conquest
I definitely would. If your in a game that is very rp oriented it should be meaningful breaking that oath. But if your not and it’s just not going to be part of the campaign then yeah sure just be an oath breaker from the beginning.
I used to main a paladin, but then I didnt.
You should go back you would really enjoy it
Going to play one and see how it goes, but seriously, the big things you go on about don't even come on line until the typical campaign is over. Fear isn't a win button when you're facing mobs of your CR level with great saves. A skeleton is a one shot for anything over a few CR (which, admittedly is an attack that didn't hit you); the barbarian has been rocking damage resistance since the start, and you're excited you finally have it to face dragons? Hell, any time you get it is ok, but it barely keeps up with the enemies by the time you get it.
Oooo! The doomy-gloomy aura! At level 20. Meh. Twilight Cleric rocks one at level one. Sure, this one does a little damage and causes disadvantage but if you can't lay the smack down and cause disadvantage by level 20, that's just pathetic.
And of course virtually no one plays the game at 20.
As a Paladin you really only gain domain spells and channel divinity at level 3. Your next ability from the sacred paths you take dosent come till level 7. You are right that there abilities do come on late. It’s rather unique in that it dosent have special abilities, though it think that is due to the importance of smite for all paladins across the board. Considering most campaigns end at around level 11 there are miles of unused abilities.
I love fear I really do. Every chance I get to use it I do. You are right it isn’t an instant win, whole heartedly you are right. Though if you do get a fear off it dose impact the combat. Enemy saves are a problem the higher level you go, also some enemies are just better at certain saves and have immunities to various conditions.
I really wish more campaigns ended at level 20. It is an experience that I hope everyone gets to do once.
I really don’t have any counter point to stand in opposition with. Fighting large mobs of a significant CR can be deadly How ever you decide to face that with your party may require you just single focus your damage on high priority targets, and not bother with fear or other spells of the like. That’s tried and true Paladin nothing wrong with it it works it’s nasty and fun to be honest.
I try to go over the skills you gain within a theory of how it could be utilized. I feel as if I would be doing a disservice if I didn’t go in-depth with things that I really enjoy about them, or concepts I see with them.
I really hope you enjoy your Paladin. Have you picked a race and backstory yet? I’d love to hear who you character is or why they chose to be an oath breaker
I am currently playing through Avernus Rising with my table and am playing a “Conquest Paladin of the Raven Queen”, though I am actually an Oath Breaker of Zariel…. Something my DM worked out with me… we are gonna confront the Party at lvl 20 when we reach Zariel
Oh really? That’s quite the twist, I love it. So how dose your character feel about the party at this point? Are they but tools to be used ?, or are they so much more?