Pilots Line Up TO LAND ON THE WRONG RUNWAY | Close Call on Go Around
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- Опубликовано: 24 май 2024
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Cleared for 25L by Approach, Tower changed their plans. The readback to 25R was pretty well heard as well. Big mistake in a dangerous situation with that B748 taking off ahead...
In my opinion tower didn't communicate it very effectively, use the word change to 25R. Also the A330 was landing 25L. Ultimately the pilot is at fault though.
All parties at fault, I don't like busy airports
tower should get disciplined
I missed the pilot confirming 25R he just said in sight.
@@PiMorton82 I hear 25 RIGHT twice in that communication. Sounds pretty clear to me.
"What was the reason for the Go Around?"
- "Unstable, and uh... we lineduhpfrhffwbhmvrway."
Me when my Mom asks about my grades and I start with the good ones hoping she forgets about the others.
Pretty much like that
"Must've been the wind"
"Cool, got a phone number for you."
@@JakeB5492 The crosswind has shifted the runway.
At least the pilots noticed the traffic on the runway and went around.
Would have been nice if they paid attention and heard the “LUAW 25L,” huh? Visual conditions is all that saved them.
Reason for the go-around: “uhhh, unstable and oh we were about to slam into a giant cargo jet”
"unstable and uh we're lined up on the incorrect runway" he said it really fast
Exactly.
This is why Controllers have specific phraseology for changing runways. "Change to Runway 25R, runway 25R cleared to land" is required in this situation per the 7110.65. That extra lingo is designed to alert the pilots that a change has occurred, and they need to make special note of this. From my time as a controller, I'd feel confident that the controller would get some remedial training over this. Props to the pilot for initiating the go around.
For pilots out there, be aware of this "change to" phraseology. If you catch a situation where approach cleared you for one runway and the tower for another WITHOUT change to phraseology, you should verify.
This is the correct answer. It's definitely not all on the pilots and their expectation bias as some others have said. We're literally *told* to "expect" a runway. So when that runway is changed, it needs to be clearly enunciated. Of course, the pilots should have heard 25R and asked what's up (sometimes it does happen that controllers just make a mistake in speaking and we just clarify), but the blame isn't 100% on them.
The Tower however said Runway 25R three times in total. The first time their read back did not include the runway, so the controller repeated "Runway 25R" two more times waiting for them to respond properly, which they finally did. To me, that's a pretty laid back attitude from the pilots in question.
So, after finally confirming 25R, they tried to land on 25L.
Isn't the change language for changing a clearance already given? The pilot was only ever cleared to 25R.
@@tryste_mx the pilot was cleared for the APPROACH 25L. If the tower controller wanted to change to runway 25R, he needed to include "change to" phraseology.
@@TheSheptard yes, pilot was cleared for the approach to 25L, not to land. Tower doesn't monitor approach clearances. There was nothing for the tower to change.
That "lined up for the wrong runway" got reeeeealll quiet.
The FAA implemented a phraseology change for this specific purpose a couple years ago. “Change to runway XX, runway XX cleared to land”
The pilots have a fair amount going on at a 4mi final and a change like this should only be done when needed. Not just to get a departure out or meet a release time. Also a good working habit is to ask the pilot if they can accept a runway change that close, or if they need to be resequenced.
I’m ATC and I put the blame on the controller. The pilot read back 25R but they didn’t respond as if they understood it was a runway change, it sounded like the pilot wasn’t paying much attention to tower and had the expectancy bias of being cleared to land on the runway they made the approach to.
Skywest 4890 read back "25R cleared to land" so the pilot just mindlessly read it back without thinking about it, maybe also was a bit overworked in that moment.
Indeed.
This happens waaay more than you might think.
Local Controller could’ve used the proper phraseology and this would’ve 100% been avoided. It’s in the .65 for a reason!
3-10-5 LANDING CLEARANCE
When issuing a clearance to land, first state the runway number followed by the landing clearance. If the landing runway is changed, controllers must preface the landing clearance with “Change to runway” followed by the runway number. Controllers must then restate the runway number followed by the landing clearance.
PHRASEOLOGY-
RUNWAY (number) CLEARED TO LAND.
Or
CHANGE TO RUNWAY (number, RUNWAY (number) CLEARED TO LAND.
NOTE-
The purpose of the “change to runway” phraseology and restating the runway number is to emphasize to the pilot that they are being cleared to land on a runway other than what they were expecting.
This. Expectation bias on the part of the pilots and the pilots missed the 25R clearance, but... they were cleared for the approach to 25L and their mention of being outside GIGGI should have confirmed this to the tower controller. If the tower wanted them on 25R he should have asked if they could "sidestep" to or accept 25R. This was a miscommunication between the approach controller and the tower controller that got blamed on the pilots.
They were never cleared to land 25L. There's nothing for the tower to change.
@@tryste_mx Are you even a pilot?
@@johnaclark1 I missed in the video where tower gives approach clearance to 25R (immediately prior to landing clearance to 25R). I first heard only landing clearance, so I'm as good a pilot as this one lol
@@tryste_mx You're just human like everyone else in the situation. There is blame on both ATC and the crew, in my opinion.
I realize the confusion from clearance but the pilot just doesn’t seem ahead of the airplane on comms. Missed multiple read backs 😵💫
its been 4 mins since he posted, video is 4mins, did you start watching 2 seconds after posting?
Scary
Because he’s an ESL RJ pilot.
The pilot on the radio sounded like "just going through the motions".
@@KD-se5bd maybe I did 😤
Crew not listening to themselves. Repeat controller reflex habit.
And not listening to the controller or the other pilots. Just happily flying the plane. It’s aviate, navigate, communicate. All three, not just first one the pilot enjoys.
While I love this channel, the worst part about it is non-pilots or non-controllers in the comments who think they know who is in the wrong and who should be fired, hazed, revoked, kicked, spanked, spit on, tarred & feathered, birthday taken away, etc. These people think because a pilot or a controller made an error that everyone should be fired and never fly again. Most have no idea why these events happen and there is always much more than just an ATC transcript that needs to be looked at. These are professional pilots who work very hard to do the best job they can. When a mistake is made, most pilots are their own worst critics. For armchair pilots/non pilots to come in here and excoriate these professional aviators when they they themselves have very little idea of what is going on, is just ridiculous. If you fired every aviator or controller who ever made a mistake, guess what? You people wouldn't go anywhere!!! You'd be driving everywhere you need to go. Newsflash! Everyone makes mistakes, including pilots from the least experienced to the most experienced. The same goes for controllers. Airplanes and controllers are manned by humans. Until that changes, these things will happen. It's still the safest mode of transportation that exists.
The idea is to take these events and learn from them, not fire every pilot or controller that ever made an error. If we did that everyone involved in this event would be fired. Get over yourself, people! /rant
Perfect example of expectation bias likely in play here. Normally, 25R is used for departures only. Not landing. I was based in LAX for years both narrow body and wide body. I don’t remember ever landing on 25R.
It's happening more frequently now for a couple reasons. Because 24L is closed, all A380 and B747-800 departures must taxi south and depart 25L. Getting them out usually requires a 6-8 mile gap on final. Usually final is too busy to space planes that far apart, so they resort to telling one to land 25R instead.
That’s correct
It's usually like that whenever a cargo or A380 takes off from the south side. Maybe even GA too. I think LAX controllers determined that it was safer to have planes take off from 25L than to have them cross it and take off on 25R.
@@JmjbsWhy is 24 L closed again?
@@svscared construction of new taxiways
SkyWest was cleared for the 25L approach the entire time. GIGII is only like 4 miles from touchdown zone, so didn’t exactly give them a lot of time to switch to 25R. Not to mention he never said sidestep or even requested them to sidestep. This could’ve been avoided with a simple “can you accept a sidestep 25R” if they can cool if they can’t they can’t. But on approach and under 4 miles from touchdown I mean you’re not giving them much time.
You are completely wrong. The word SIDESTEP is not required, and 4 miles is more than enough to switch to a visual approach to the parallel.
@@VASAviation Maybe "SIDESTEP" should be required. And this was a 747 that eats up 4 miles in mere seconds. It is not the most maneuverable beast.
@@martinhnetynka8252 no bro it was an RJ probably doing 100 knots on final, and GIGII is more like 5.5 miles from the threshold.
@@VASAviation would 25R have even been possible considering the space between the other two planes landing on 25R? At least in the video, it looked like seperation might have become an issue.
@@clockworkvanhellsing372 dude! You're the only one to mention, the pattern for 25R was full. There's no way to ask the SKW plane to switch to 25R without messing up the spacing in the 25R pattern. Also, how did ATC not see SWA approaching 25L on radar when clearing the cargo plane to "line up and wait"? Was this tower controller even managing 25R? I didn't hear any callouts for those other planes, though maybe they were trimmed.
This was a bad hand off between approach and tower losing situational awareness aroung the field.
Sidestep are common practice...even on short-notice in VMCs and part. more so when one of four parallel RWs are closed!
no theyre not what? ive never sidestepped have you?
The comments below, about being on the 25L approach and a casual switch to the right by tower, is compounded by the fact that this a very busy time in the cockpit. We are actually doing stuff, a lot of stuff, in the cockpit as we slow from the speed approach has assigned, getting the flaps out (in increments), setting the bugs, then the gear, then arming the speed brake, running a checklist, setting the missed approach altitude and switching to tower for what we think is a routine, cleared to land on the runway you are shooting the approach for. I am not sure I would have figured this out. A casual switch, left to right, in the middle of configuring the a/c and running a check, is easy to miss.
Now, I have taken off on the south (left) runway coming out of the south ramps, so it does happen, but it is unusual. The tower should make the landing crew aware, "You are being cleared to land on the normal takeoff runway, not the normal landing runway, heads up!"
If you read back 25R but never change then you're falling in the passive readbacks which is saying back what you have heard but not realizing what it means to your airplane. One of the greatest fails a pilot can make
@@VASAviation I think rather than blaming one or the other, we can put a bit of blame on both. The pilot did not follow through on the clearance readback and didn't ask for clarification, which was definitely his bad, but ATC didn't use standard phraseology and made an amended clearance that was very easy to miss.
fortunately they both caught it and nothing bad came out of it. A good learning moment for everyone
@@VASAviationdespite getting a lot of consistent pushback from pilots and others, you are being unusually strong in your conviction about blame in this video comments, compared to others.
Just an observation.
I'm an avgeek but I never knew how busy you were on the flight deck prior to landing.
@@JuttutinI noticed that too haha
ATC should have been more clear with the runway change. Something like "Change to runway 25R, runway 25R cleared to land" would have helped
agree, it looks like they were cleared for the ILS 25L unless they were cleared ILS 25L with a sidestep by approach tower 100% should have made it more obvious they were to side step
The tower controller didn’t change their runway. They just got a different one than they expected, and we’re so far behind that they ignored the assignment and their own readbacks.
@@RetreadPhoto i would imagine they would load 25R since that is what you get 90% of the time, without knowing what approach they got its hard to tell
@@RetreadPhoto GIGII is the final approach fix for 25L, and approach apparently cleared them for that runway
APPROACH issued an ILS 25L clearance to SkyWest, but TOWER decided to change the landing runway to 25R, perhaps because of the congestion at the airport. SkyWest thought the landing runway was 25L, so they did not think it was a change to 25R, and thought a 25L visual approach clearance was issued. Human assumptions and expectations are strong, and to change this, the tower should have clearly communicated that the intents had changed. For example, 'Your landing runway changed to 25R. Report runway 25R insight.'
If you have expectation bias, no matter how different the Tower clears you, your mind is focused on 25L only and that's the only runway your brain wants to land on. Tower said 25R twice in that communication, once in the previous one, and they still flew to 25L.
Tower told them to report 25R in sight, and then cleared them for the visual to 25R, which they read back. I’m not sure how many more times 25R needed to be said and confirmed. It would help if this pilot spoke up a little bit too. His mumbling isn’t making the situation any easier.
@@VASAviation Expectation bias! My wife does this to me all the time. She tells me "Don't forget to put gas in the car" what she really meant was "the kids have a dentist appointment at noon and you needed to pick them up where are you!?!?"
@@VASAviation this sounds like there would be no way to overcome confirmation bias. But there is. I dont know enough psychology to say what phrases would work but something like change of runway to xy should help. Then you hear the word change and think about it.
@@matt_b... That should be obvious, Matt. "Gas" refers to the nitrous oxide used at the dentist, and "CAR" is short for "children are ready". You have to think things through, my friend.
Correct phraseology is, “skw4890 expect a sidestep to rwy 25R, report rwy 25R in sight.” After he reports it in sight, “skw4890 change to rwy 25R, rwy 25R cleared to land.” Remember, skw4890 has been thinking 25L the entire flight and then cleared for the approach to 25L. It takes a lot to change the mindset.
Not exactly. I'm an LAX native. 25L has the ILS while 25R does not. It's incredibly common for an approach clearance to 25L followed by landing clearance on 25R. You're right that ATC could have been clearer but that should have been ready for the parallel because control tries to or airlines on 25R when possible since it's a closer and easier taxi to the terminals.
That's also why 77NG was landing 25L. That's a private jet going to Signature or Atlantic on the south side of 25L.
@@AviatorFox The experience level of the skw crew could have been a factor. They may have been east coast or midwest pilots and not familiar with all the lax ins and outs.
@@AviatorFox 25R 100% does have an ILS. Its chart 11-8 in the Jepps with a FAF of FOGLA. The controller never said 'Change to Rnwy 25R". That is an FAA required phraseology. Id post a link here, but youtube will block it. Approach had them set up for 25L, evidenced by GIGII, a fix on the 25L ILS. Tower is at fault here if it were to be litigated.
They were never cleared to land 25L. The tower isn't monitoring approach clearances.
Edit:typo
@@dayeightfloyd5495 a pilot friend of mine with one of the majors said that most pilots "forget" each airport and approach them as if landing for the first time so they follow all the instructions and the pre-brief instead of their "expectations" on what is "normal".
Your other right Sky West.
The mix of IFR arrivals and visual approaches to parallel runways as practiced in the US, coupled with clearing multiple aircraft to land with the assumption that the runway will be clear and secure eventually is going to end in a disaster. I'm sure it expedites traffic at busy airports but it's all very iffy. The lawyers will have a field day when it inevitably happens.
Maybe simply adding the word SIDESTEP 25R, clear to land will get everyone on the same page.
"Wait, your right or my right?"
I don't know if I could handle this, dual runways in use at the same time, with short gaps and wake turbulence just waiting to make you have a bad day. "next to land is traffic for the parallel" ... Nope!
You’d think having repeated back a clearance for the right hand runway he’d have realised he was lined up on the left runway. But your brain can play tricks on you. I used to fly a retractable Arrow and at our local field the R runway was long and sealed and the L runway was short and grass. ATC put me on the grass for a landing because of traffic and i very nearly got cleaned up by a student and instructor who just expected me to be on the seal even though you could clearly hear I wasn’t. When I say very nearly, I noticed them about two or three metres off my left wingtip in a steep turn to the left as the instructor took control at the last instant. That’s the only time an instructor ever bought ME beer lol
Humans have a lot of stuff going on. I was a Blackhawk crew chief for 20 years. Pilots sometimes don't get much sleep. Stress. In Iraq we worked non stop. This near miss is actually a god example of the system working as advertised. Mistake deconflicted quickly. AAR will address. LAX is one of the most congested and stressful airports on earth. Amazing skill of pilots and ATC there. No where else on earth I feel safer flying than in the USA.
When Approach and Tower are having a Domestic
Go-Around
Usually TOWER will say “SIDESTEP” to 25R….after being previously cleared for 25L…am I correct?
Nope, you are wrong. The word sidestep is not required.
@@VASAviation U are right…AIM 5-4-19…a VISUAL App does NOT require it….I’ve heard it used so many times at KSFO, KLAX, KEWR but technically it is for an Instrument APP Clearance to one RWY, then changed to the parallel RW less than 1200’ apart. …good catch.another….”Close one”…to be sure…..great post.
@@VASAviation The word change is required though, no?
@@exile2k only if a landing clearance has been issued previously
Tower should have asked: “Are you willing to accept a side step to 25R”, not just clear him for the visual. Very dangerous play by ATC and easy to miss in a busy environment by pilots.
It's a real common clearance in LAX. They do this all the time
@@VASAviation Just because it's a common practice, doesn't mean it is a safe procedure
That requires another set of transmissions. At busy airports the frequency is already congested. If a pilot can't accept an instruction, they say 'unable'. From there the plan changes.
I swear every video has a pilot apologist squirming trying to pawn some kind of blame to ATC 😂
@@retiredandcrusty Well, you sound like an ATC apologist so why don't you enlighten us all by explaining what exactly happened here? 🙂
Why wasn't Nippon takeoff clearance cancelled?!
Came here for this question. Had to scroll way down to find it, and no replies. This is an odd VAS video comment thread compared to usual.
I'm no expert, only an enthusiast, but given human reaction times and the time it takes to issue instructions, by the time the controller would have cancelled the takeoff clearance they might have already been above V1 (the decision speed for rejecting takeoff vs taking it in the air) and have to take off anyway. So once the controller sees what's happening, the best thing he can do with his time is get the plane going around to a safe altitude and turned away from the field, and then instruct the plane taking off to watch out for the other one visually.
Great videos. Please just add the date of the incident as well, if possible
I thought it kind of strange they cleared them for 25R since that is usually the active for departures and 25L for arrivals.
It's nothing strange, it's usual practice in LAX to change runways to make the runway use as effective as possible
Generally B748 can only depart RWY25L on the south complex.
@@VASAviationit’s actually VERY abnormal. I wouldn’t call it “strange” but very abnormal.
@@VASAviation I know that they do occasionally have aircraft taking off from 25L but the prime flow is takeoffs on 24R because #1 it is closer to the terminals and saves about 10 min on the taxi. #2 They try to minimize crossing the active 24R to get to 25L. Certain times of day that can create a traffic jam. Just like on the North complex the inbound runway 24L is used for the takeoffs, and the outboard 24R used for landing traffic. I am with a spotting crew that is at LAX a couple of times a week. 748s usually land on 25L because the cargo operations sits next to that runway. One of the reasons they minimize landing traffic on both runways simultaneously is a direct result of that accident where the 737 landed atop a turboprop sitting on the same runway.
@@Slytiger3 Where did you get that information? 747-8s, along with A380s take off from 25R on a daily basis. They land on 25L, especially cargo heavies because the cargo area is next to 25L. The spotting channel I am with is usually positioned at Clutter's park, so we have a good view of which runways are commonly used for takeoffs. Sometimes you may see a cargo 747 from Kalitta or Atlas take off from 25L if traffic flow is light.
wow, more credit to these piolets as even with the ability to pause, i barely have the ability to understand what they are saying.
I'm not as familiar with LAX, but at ATL, I've always seen the departing aircraft on the inside pair, and the landing aircraft on the outside pair. I'm sure there have been exceptions, but normal procedure is what I typed. It would be a surprise to get a sidestep. Sure, not impossible, but I would think ATC would be clear what they were doing.
I lined up for the wrong runway one time and had a close call but we laughed it off, made a quick go around and she wasn't too mad...
But you weren't at LAX, I take it!?!
Accident waiting to happen. It is nice though, not having to write a report about it if/when, you do line up wrong.
lol, not the common type of aircraft incident, i guess 🤣
Was La flights live at that moment?
Been in that sketch at Daytona
I’ve listened to a lot of LAX ATC and generally they are explicit in these situations. They use “sidestep or can you accept 25R.”
Or at least let the appch controllers know they needed a gap so that approach could give them the sidestep
Yeah I’m gonna have to say ATC needed to be more clear about switching the runway to 25R. He should have asked if they could sidestep to 25R instead of just clearing them for landing on 25R after they were cleared for the 25L approach.
It's usual practice and SOP at LAX. ATC don't ask for permission, they just clear you because you must be prepared for it. If you can't accept it, you should let ATC know prior to commencing the approach
@@VASAviationIf I ask the question, “is that an excuse the family of all the deceased would accept” and the answer is probably no, then I don’t think that really justifies it.
So saying report 25r in sight then saying " cleared visual approach runway 25r, runway 25r, cleared to land" isn't enough?
And also the pilot reading back 25r. Don't defend this bull shit by the pilots
@@beauc7653 You say that but then once there’s a huge fireball and a bunch of men, women, and children go up in smoke, and they’re done criticizing the pilot, I have little doubt they’ll also stop doing the last minute sidestep nonsense as well.
The Tower should use the terminology to “sidestep” to 25R simply to prevent the pilot from missing the change in landing runways. The 25L ILS provides minimums for “sidestep” 25R. The pilot should have noticed the 747 taking the runway and made an inquiry.
Just from looking at the visual, how would sidestepping have worked with the other traffic already lined up with 25R?
If the screen visual is accurate it does not look like there was room for them on 25R.
25R was empty
Note there are four runways displayed here: the lower pair is 25L and 25R, the upper pair is 24L and 24R. 25R was clear; the other traffic shown was on the 24s.
@@sealiesoftwareand that wasn't made very clear in the diagram that was only shown very briefly. Sure, pilots familiar with that airport may have realized that, but many of us that watch the channel would have been hard pressed to work that out on our own.
@@sealiesoftware Copy, was not aware of that.
Good job by the tower using degrees of divergence to squeeze out of a jam that skw handed them.
Most busy airports don’t apply published missed procedures, but either way it’s important to give this go around a/c instructions asap. If the skw flew 25R missed procedures, it could compound their mistake
Makes perfect sense, southbound departures get that exact turn at the shoreline, I was expecting that 220 even earlier and that would probably have been an option if it wasn't an oceanic departure. And yes, the MAP has that 235 heading at the shoreline.
Didn't see a date on this one. For the record, it was on 21 May, 2024, around 00 : 17Z
(edit for update)
Live streamer @caliplanes caught it on the Monday, 20 May show. Was at 17 : 18 PDT. ruclips.net/user/liveXe0VGNEpYAs?&t=21666
Complacency, rare to land on 25R. So they just continued with the standard 25L approach.
GIGII is clearly shown on the ILS 25L going into LAX... I wonder if the approach controller cleared them for the left ILS as well? We didn't hear that except for the LAX APP telling them speed 170 to GIGII so I would assume they did. This is partly on the tower controller for not telling skywest 4890 about the runway change... Pilot read back the cleared visual approach 25R but not cleared to land 25R. Mess ups on both sides.
SKW was indeed cleared for the ILS 25L.
Tower didn't use standard phraseology. Sould have said "change to" or "sidestep to" 25R. Just saying "clear to land runway 25R" is not appropriate.
Reason for the go around.. you lined us up on the wrong runway! Prepare to copy a phone number, approach.. controller deviation. Hey, we can wish!
Omg a simple "change to runway 25R" would've cleared up this misunderstanding immediately. It's like they are intentionally trying to put people in harms way....
Except the tower controller never changed their runway.
Yes he did, approach controller had them lined up for 25L tower controller then cleared them for visual to 25r.
We don't have the audio recordings here, but if you're lined up for 25l that's what approach cleared you for, so when tower wants to change your runway there's phraseology for that. @@RetreadPhoto
@@RetreadPhoto 100% did....
Controller owns at least 25% of that for not using the correct phraseology. "Change to runway 25R, runway 25r cleared to land"
Can the controller not see that they are lined up incorrectly on the radar?
Not really no. They're close enough together that they can definitely appear the same.
I guess it depends on the zoom they apply to their radar scope, but runways are really close together
25L and 25R are only 800 feet apart between centerlines.
Only if they are doing their job…..like use to be the norm. Sadly, not as much with todays new hires. In this case, totally pilots fault, but should have been caught by ATC. THE visuals here in this video, are the same as ATC has available.
@@pauljones6321 I guess you forgot about Comair taking the wrong take off runway & ATC not catching it. Or the Chicago AA crew landing during a t-storm in Little Rock. Or doesn't that fit your narrative?
Happens to me all the time when I'm playing Mini Airways
And that folks is how all the holes in the Swiss line up..
Yeah we know . This comment is in every VASAviation comment section 🙄
Could you be more clear? Swiss what? Knife? Cheese? Chocolate? Yeah.....this comment is about as "monkey see monkey do" as I've seen here. If those "holes" did line up it'd be a whole different video. The JFK video is far more "Swiss" worthy.
yeah, except they didn't, obv
@@davidfrank5227 The only thing, saving the day was sufficient visual range. And that was been a theme with incidents in the US recently. That's just one layer of cheese from Linate (or Tenerife). Safety is by redundancy, in this case, always have more than 1 layer, where the holes don't line up.
Surprised no phone nunber
Wow.
Crews have to plan for each runway. Changing the runway assignment without making it clear to the crew is sloppy. No radar in the tower? 50% controller 50% crew.
This is an example of the crew catching something was wrong and went around. Often we see close calls develop because no one’s looking out the window and just blindly acacia controllers clearance. Good job.
Pilots seemed quite unprepared
Is there no way for the controller to determine whether the plane is approaching 25L or 25R
it sounds simple but its foundational that everyone desiring a career as a pilot or atc grow up in their developmental years with an older version of flight simulator. its a good blueprint of how to talk to atc among the development of the very skills used as a professional pilot i.e. hand eye coordination, reading instruments, tuning radios, what all the signage and markings at an airport mean. but people think it has no relevance to actual flying but that couldn't be farther from the truth. the best flight students have had flight simulator playing experience. the remedial students have not. and that is what is simple.
correct readback from pilot would have been cleared visual 25R. 25R cleared to land. because you can be given one approach with another runway to land. so you need to verify the approach and runway in use. my just be my personal opinion since i am not citing the regulation.
How's the Nippon was supposed to see the traffic which is above and behind and turning South?
Looking out the window
The traffic had already passed the departing aircraft by that time.
Blimey 😮
Love all these visual approaches these cowboys are still doing
No Brasher?
Looks like it was a little too soon for Mommy to stop writing "L" and "R" on the backs of his hands in magic marker after all.
When did this happened?
US airspace is quite unsafe with all the mixture of visual and ils…
Possible pilot deviation? Call the tower!
"Approaching...Runway 25...LEFT" Airbus Runway Awareness System
Almost certainly wouldn't have helped. Likely not even relevant since they were in an Embraer.
Just putting the SKW4890 to one side for a minute. Tower clears N77NG to land on 25L says the 747 Heavy will hold then immediately tells that 747 Nippon Cargo 5103 to line up, then take off from 25L. I thought you were only supposed to give one clearance at a time?
Weird that hardly anyone in the comments is mentioning N77NG, and that they aren't shown on the radar?
@@Juttutin I can only assume that N77NG was too far out to show up.
@@Batters56 yeah, maybe, but he gets landing clearance for 25L seven seconds (if real time) after SKW gets landing clearance for 25R. Even just as further confirmation bias for SKW about which runway was in use for landings, it seems relevant to the discussion
@@Juttutin They must have had some mental confirmation bias going on though. To hear another plane be cleared to land for your runway and not question it? I know the timings were quite tight.
skw4890 cleared app rwy 25R.What about skw3694 200ft bellow about the same distance from rwy 25r threshold?
SKW3694 is NOT landing on 25R.
@@VASAviation where is he going then?
@@miguelrodrigues190 24R
@@VASAviation THOSE ARE PARALLEL RWYS THERE'S NO 24R
While SkyWest 4890 is apparently lining up on the wrong runway, it seems that it would have been very close to the aircraft in front of it (SkyWest 3694) IF it has lined up correctly with 25R. At 1:53, if you mentally move the dot of 4890 to where it would have been at the path for 25R, it would be much closer to 3694 than to the aircraft behind (Delta 1539). So if I put myself in the pilot seat and visualize it, may be that's why they *think* the 25L landing path is the one that makes more sense, and therefore followed that one instead?
SKW3694 was NOT landing on 25R. It's 4 runways there
@@VASAviation Ah so that's 24R that 3694 is landing on? Got it. So then no one was lining up with 25R then at that time. My bad.
Why didn’t Nippon check to see if there were any aircraft landing before entering an active runway ? That is standard regardless if you have been cleared .
Also the tower didn’t seem to notice the plane about to land either luckily the plane noticed that there was a plane on the runway even though he was lined up on wrong runway .
Kinda like the Haneda crash where everyone is to blame
Bought himself an ASAP report.....
He probably input the wrong runway during the preflight. This is easy to do. Expectation bias; I'll bet they both got some retraining.
Still kind of hard to understand how they did not catch this until the go-around; Did they do performance for the right side? What about the approach briefing?
They were cleared for the ILS 25L hence being at GIGII. Tower wanted them to sidestep to 25R last minute and was a bit unclear in their instruction. Usually they ask if you’re able because usually no we don’t have performance numbers for 25R and we haven’t briefed it and you don’t have time at that point. That being said, the numbers are probably the same as the parallel…
@@buglogic I looked it up and you are correct, GIGII is on the approach for 25L. But the video never says anything about "sidestep", which is the REQUIRED verbiage if this maneuver is desired by the controller! AND that controller cleared them for the ILS 25R, not 25L, ("maintain 170 till GIGII") so how did the box get programmed that way? Here's the thing: 25R is 12,923 feet long, and 25L is 11,095 feet long. Now this is an EMB-175 so it really doesn't matter, but if you do your performance for a long runway yet you go and actually land on a shorter runway you have not proven your performance and as such it would be an illegal landing. I think the controller is now more at fault than the pilot. Good points!
Flying visual approaches seems to be a big deal in the US.
ATC can pass on responsibility of separation onto pilots, airports can cram more planes per hour onto their poorly designed runway systems, airlines can therefore offer more flights. In the end I suspect the main driver of this practice is, as always, money. Still pilots will be written up with a "possible pilot deviation" should something go wrong, because they accepted the visual clearance. "Unable" is a magical word we'd wish to hear more frequently on this channel.
That has absolutely nothing to do with this video. Also, it's better for the environment to do visuals. lol
@@A.J.1656 of course it has something to do with the video, or did you miss the point where they lined up with the wrong runway?
This is something that I do when landing at an airport with multiple runways and / or parallel runways:
There is almost always an approach to that particular runway so I’ll load it into the gps or whatever navigation system I have on onboard, even if it’s VFR. Parallels will have a different frequency so once it’s loaded and verified, I’ll have a second “set of eyes” watching out to ensure that I’m lined up on the correct runway.
I hate to say it, but this one is totally on the flight crew. There was a Captain and FO that both missed the mark on this one. They were cleared for the visual approach to 25R and subsequently cleared to land on 25R and acknowledged the clearances. I would dare say a little remedial training in a sim would be appropriate.
Remedial training and 6 months working for entry level pay might do it. There is rarely any real punishment for these guys. Write up and 3 hours simulator time is not enough.
@bryanspink8042 You're missing the fact that the approach clearance was issued for 25L, thus the speed assigned until GIGGI. The tower controller changed runways on them and didn't specifically mention the runway change but just issued a clearance to the other runway, which the crew missed. Yes, they should have questioned the 25R vs the original 25L but there was definitely significant controller error here.
@@DomManInT1 You must be referring to the ATC screw up. Both were equally at fault on this one.
@@johnaclark1100% pilot error and malfunction. There is no requirement for HOW a controller corrects a runway assignment. There IS A requirement for the pilot to follow directions, especially after reading it back correctly. He can’t just say “we’ll earlier they said 25L, and they didn’t verbally reinforce in a manner that we pilots appreciate that we have a runway assignment change.” Told 25R, read back 25R, multiple times. Tried to land 25L. And let’s don’t ignore the total SA screwup that he heard ANOTHER AIRCRAFT told to LUAW on 27L. That don’t perk up your ears, and the FO’s, when you’re lined up on short final to 25L? Good visibility is the only thing that prevented a major catastrophe.
@@RetreadPhoto Are you even a pilot? These comment sections are just toxic. If you're a pilot, I see more hazardous attitudes here than anywhere in the video itself.
Holy (Insert swear words-multiple) moly!
TIL: Lining up for the wrong runway is unstable, and unstable is a good reason for a go-around
So the whole landing system is totally dependent upon the one/two pilots in the cockpit? There are no radars that tell the tower if the incoming traffic is not doing the right thing? How dangerous! This could easily be the lives of a few hundred people! Remember that Air Canada which almost landed on a few jets waiting to take off at SFO?
Updated: SORRY. 25L&R are south side and 24L&R are north side. So my original comment is indeed wrong: VASAVIATION animation makes it look like there’s no room in trail for 25R for Skywest.
No, sir. There's NOBODY landing on 25R.
@@VASAviationit certainly doesn't look like it to most people. The image isn't readily indicative that it's showing tracks for both the two pairs of parallel runways rather than just the tracks for the southern pair. Combined with the short duration it's shown, that lack of clarity will inevitably mislead most people to the actual situation there. The pilots and ATC weren't the only ones to mess up here.
@@VASAviation sorry!! I see it. North parallels 24 L&R and south parallels 25 L&R
@@MikeDCWeld don't you really see two pairs of lines right at the center of the screen? LAX has FOUR runways.
@@VASAviation I certainly do see the two pairs of line on the screen. The spacing between the pairs is not unreasonable to be depicting a single runway pair. There is no indication of scale or distances visible, nor any indication of anything between the two sets of lines.
"Close call" is a bit of a stretch. The go around looks like according to procedures that are designed to keep separation.
Well, if they hadn't spotted the plane on the runway that would have been a problem. Also, those planes seemed awfully close on the go around and I think that would have been the case even if they landed on the right runway and went around.
@@RichFreeman Yes, you could call the fact that I was caught fairly late a "close call". But the video title is "close call on go around" and it really wasn't. You can see at 2:32 when the aircraft where right on top of each other there was a 1400ft difference in altitude (005 and 019). That's more than the 1000ft vertical separation that is used as a standard. Thousands of aircraft routinely pass over each other with 1000ft vertical separation every day.
@@mju135 that wasn't a result of their clearances. That is just luck. The plane taking off was cleared to a higher altitude than the plane above it.
Separation around runways should be based on clearances to space, not timing. It is just too hard to get the latter right, and it depends on reliable communications, which aircraft do not possess.
This sounds like a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing. I don’t think tower knew Approach had cleared them for 25L approach.
They did. There are coordination scratchpads in the data blocks not visible here. Approach would have put in V5L for visual 25L. And tower switched them to 25R per their needs and the pilots correctly read back but didn’t execute
I am sure the tower knew. Game plan for the shift is established @nd changes are quickly coordinated and made.
OK I concede ATC’s operational perfection. But it would have been nice if tower could have at least said “change to 25R” or something.
@@centralcontroller6483 Is "change to Rwy xxx" required tower phraseology? If its not, it should be.
Tunnel vision is what I feel got in the way. You’re whole pre flight and review and set up was for one runway and then you’re given the visual to the other.
1.Normally the 25s are on the south and 24s the north right? So a little confused with the graphics there
2.This is obviously primarily on the pilots but I feel like tower saying “change to 25R” or “sidestep to 25R” something like that would’ve alerted the pilots of which runway the controller was talking about and prevented this incident
What are you confused about?
@@VASAviationin all other videos you’ve made on lax, the 24s are on top and 25s on the bottom, but I believe this video the 25s are on the top and 24s on the bottom
@@dew9103 no, the 25s are on the bottom as always.
why we didn't hear any communication of SkyWest3694? it seemed they landed to 25R almost at the same time SKW4890 went around, it was already impossible that both planes to land 25R, no?
No, they landed on 24R
@@VASAviation thank you, i see now, different tower freq.
Tower can't see radar?
I don’t know what people are talking about with this “change”stuff from the Tower - 4890 blew this one completely.
Half-assed readbacks need to start being addressed. It is important to confirm all information, not just the landing clearance.
I always thought you readback exactly what was transmitted. You don't reply, "Roger that."
Happening to often.
Yes, way too often.
Or because of the internet we're hearing about it more often.
This has always been happening, the internet is what makes people hear about it more
The FAA budget needs to be tripled honestly.
@@christophererwin7605too often indeed 😏
Must be hard dating ATC Dad daughter:
Roger: Can I come over to pick up your daughter?
Dad: Ident
Roger: My name is Roger
Dad: Roger, say intentions
Roger: can I take your daughter to disco?
Dad: Negative, drive around, highway heading.
Roger: What about next week?
Dad: what day?
Roger: I think it’s first of May
ATC: Roger May Day, cleared for pick up. Hold short of VODKA, follow LAW, turn her back 0800 ZULU time.
Roger: I can’t do it
Dad: say again Roger?
Roger: we’re gonna be in the Hooters
These should be called "Who can try to be the coolest on frequency by talking as disinterested and low key (and hence inaudible and garbled) as possible". Grm towr, Airbu four svn mmm fb, runway fmrn nrm, sg tom, goodday...
My right, or your right?
How is this not a pilot deviation, call the tower kind of situation?
The controller never said 'Change to Rnwy 25R". That is an FAA required phraseology. Id post a link here, but youtube will block it. Approach had them set up for 25L, evidenced by GIGII, a fix on the 25L ILS.
Wait wait wait… uhh the ATC was super confusing here. I see why the Skywest pilots got it wrong. ATC didn’t say side step to 25R or can you accept 25R he just cleared them to land 25R. You got to make it well understood that that’s what you want out of Skywest. Also pilots can’t just land on any runway they need to run the “numbers” it’s not just a matter of seeing a runway and landing. Also yea the Skywest pilot seemed a bit behind on radio calls, maybe fatigue.
So where was the PIC to say “unable”?
But it's "visual approach" and he asked if they could "see" 25R ;-D
Tower is not required to say the words "sidestep" and pilots MUST be prepared for both runways. It's LAX Standard Operations. Get informed before judging.
@@essel23fly while flying into LAX, you HAVE to prepare for both the parallels runways. Its how it is done there.
@@VASAviation ok I see that according to your comment it’s “LAX specific” Well my comment was on based on how it happens at 99% of other places, you absolutely do not prepare for any runway, it’s just for the one assigned. Nobody is judging. How are we supposed to know LAX specific ops unless it’s posted on the video?
Shit happens nobody is perfect ….
Transitional space is risky one must be highly vigilant.
No need to make up things like "unstable approach" just admit that you lined up for the wrong runway and move on. (Most likely due to fatigue as he acknowledged the correct runway landing clearance in his rear back to the tower)
Parallel runways and non-Western pilots. What could go wrong?
Bit ironic that all the LAX live streamers are visiting other airports right now so no Iive video of the incident.
Approach control should’ve been the one clearing the aircraft for the approach. They had him set up for 25L. They even gave him a speed assignment to GIGII, which is the approach to 25L. The tower then cleared him for 25R. Approach missed the mark, tower missed the mark, and the flight crew also missed the mark. Only a matter of time before we see a hull loss. These stupid and totally preventable mistakes are going to get people hurt or worse.
What does Approach have to do with this? Absolutely nothing.
@@VASAviation well, approach should have cleared the aircraft for their approach. Usually tower only issues the landing clearance. At LAX, usually they clear aircraft to descend via the arrival and for the approach all in one step. So maybe the tower thought approach had brought the aircraft onto the approach for 25R when in fact they hadn’t. I would say they had a part in it, but without the audio while the aircraft was on the arrival, there’s no way to know for sure what the plan was. We need to hear when the aircraft checks in with approach and the expected runway given by ATC.
@@cwhitty05 I have heard the audio and you are absolutely wrong
@@VASAviation well, thanks for your polite professionalism. I did not hear that audio, so I’m going based on my experience flying in and out of LAX.
The local controller needs to do a better job specifying "Change RWY 25R report 25R in sight" "Sidestep 25R, rwy 25R cleared visual approach cleared to land". Sloppy job all around.
Totally agree. Crew missed the change and didn't seem to be hearing the big picture with an aircraft cleared onto what they thought was their runway, but Tower could have made it more clear as you said. 'Sidestep' probably would have woken them up and broken them out of their expectation bias.
Absolutely!!! I did NOT HEAR a “change runway to 25R!!! This being an RJ no doubt had younger pilots flying, (not busting on them ) but they didn’t demand a clarification.
This was all on the controller. Be careful out there, last week had a ground controller at a major airport clear me across a runway only to tell me to now hold short several seconds after we had crossed. As soon as he said hold short I looked up at my lights and they were all still on indicating that we were indeed cleared across(SOP lights on when crossing a rwy). He had mixed up our jet with a different jet and I let him know in no uncertain terms that we were given a Clnc to cross.
Probably the most important request would have been 'report BOTH 25 runways in sight'. If you can see one runway at direction 25 you have no idea which you are lining up for. Asking them to report at the limit of their vision was a contributing factor, because it almost guaranteed they would only be able to see one when they started to get into 'the routine'. The only reason you would ask them to report sight of one runway is to then tell them which approach they were on, with the default from silence being reasonably assumed to be the correct one. Telling them they are following an aircraft (that they will visually identify) that is going to the other runway is massively unhelpful.
There were no big mistakes from the tower, just a few small ones that all implied they were on the correct approach.
@@hawkeye681yeah sure, tower cleared them for the visual 25R, then cleared them to land 25R, the pilot read back 25R, lined up for the wrong runway themselves, but because tower didn't tell them to change the runway it was 100% towers fault, sure
@@jakobm.7813
You don’t accept a clearance to land on another runway unless the controller SPECIFICALLY told you or asked if you cane accept a change of runways. TWR never specified a runway change, only a clearance to land on a different runaway from the one they were established on….
Had this happen numerous times over 40 years, never been a problem after sorting out what the tower wants or needs as far as runway assignments are concerned. ……
„I have a number for you to call - Are you ready to copy?“ - followed later I guess 😅