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"Hey! I hope you are doing great today! I was about to say that if you can make any interesting ww1 battle like? Tannenberg🏇⚔️, Gallipoli🏝️⚔️, Jutland⚓, Cambrai⚔️, Passchendaele⚔️, Verdun🏰⚔️, Somme💀⚔️ or etc... But the battle that i want to make is Verdun because here... !They shall not pass!
16:30, basically a war crime. Our neighbour, an old lady working one of the farms in the village I grew up, told us about an RAF pilot they found in the woods. The local nazi leader interrogated him and they found out that he had just bombed Stuttgart, but got shot down by anti air guns. That particular air raid was targeted at the train station and the inner city of Stuttgart. Hundreds of people burned alive. They hanged the pilot then and there at the big oak tree on the village entrance. My mom was shocked but the old lady said, "Er war ein Kindermörder" (he was a child killer).
I'm currently watching this video on the top floor of the yellow building that is at 1 o'clock to the top tip of the blue star that is the moat of the Schloss in the west of Münster, and funnily enough when I moved into this flat and redecorated the walls, I noticed that most of the the walls seemed to have originally only been built up to half their current height. Didnt think too much of it though, and went about my life. A few months later I was in the kiosk (basically a kind of seven-eleven) round the corner, and an ancient man came in. We chatted for a moment, he asked me where i live, and i told him the adress. ''ha! That's where we used to run! The whole street would meet in that cellar, cause it had the communal bomb shelter.'' I told him that now that he mentioned it, there was one part of the cellar that had a big iron door, and he nodded. ''But we were never worried, the boys on the roof always nailed it'' he said with a slight grin, and plodded away. I'm now almost positive, that the half-story that was added after the war was to build up the part of the roof that used to hold the flak-battery. Smol world innit.
Can I ask you all a favour? If you enjoy this episode, could you please hit the like button and/or leave a comment, it helps us massively. Appreciate you all!
Have you guys considered doing an in-depth video about the bomber crew that got escorted by a German Ace? I cant remember the details of that story but I thought it was a showing of mercy in a brutal war such as WWII.
i wasnt a huge fan of master of the air, but this mission was absolutely done well in the show. theres no other words i can use to describe it than sheer insanity. the variety and scale of suffering of wwii really outstrips human comprehension
It's such an odd thing isn't it? The memory is becoming very distant and the number of people who experienced it firsthand is dwindling, but I feel like we still haven't collectively comprehended the whole thing.
It's kind of a shame that it didn't live up to its potential. From the bland characters, to the ridiculously unrealistic CGI (talking motion, not graphical fidelity), to the disjointed narrative. I wasn't expecting Band of Brothers quality, because how could you, but I was expecting more than _that._
My grandpa flew B-24s in china during WW2. I recently found a book that features him on a raid. On this mission the plane “Chug-a-Lug” was shot up so bad the navigation papers flew out the cockpit, and most of his crew was injured. He made it back to a friendly runway but the plane was so damaged he had to land going 140 with no flaps and the plane went into a spin upon hitting the ground. Funny enough even while crash landing he managed to put the plane into the designated parking area. He crashed on another mission and was taken POW, he didn’t tell my dad much of anything about that, but I can bet it was not a good experience. He died when I was 3 but I imagine he was a cool guy. My dad said his PTSD was bad. RIP Leland Borden Farnell
My uncle fought japs in the philippines It took me several years as a kid to get him to tell me anything of the war there. He did tell me several stories most very bad time.
@@christianschulz1443bro several American volunteer divisions went to China to fight the Japanese calling him a war criminal is ingenious at best and downright wrong at worst
These graphic re-enactments of significant battles is one of the few channels I will watch immediately when they come up….outstanding way to understand the complexities of battle.
Anytime I look at the stories of bomb raids from the allies i am reminded how they were the same evil they were supposedly fighting. They just got away with it.
@@TheLassahThere is no denying Hitler was evil. On the other hand, Truman bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki when he knew he didn't need to. Bad leaders on both sides.
Although Americans don't know or use the letter "Ü", it is essential to distinguish the city of Münster (the bombed city) and Munster (200km away from Münster).
Band of Brothers made me fear winter, The Pacific made me fear the jungle, Masters of the Air makes me fear flying. I hope they do a series on WW2 submariners next. They could do three perspectives or an anthology: U-boats, merchant marine convoys, and American submariners in the Pacific.
The ultimate TV-series (and movie) on U-boats has been done already. It doesn't get any better than Das Boot. I agree about the convoys though. The civilians in the merchant navy played a critical role in the war effort, but never really got the recognition they deserved from filmmakers. I can't think of a single movie or TV-series that focuses on them. At least those American submariners in the Pacific got Operation Petticoat. That's something.
@@spiffywolf2850 because pasific theather is focused on Battleship and Carrier Battle. There is a little battle betwen ship fleet vs submarine group. But still there is 1 submarine that sink japanese experimental Heavy Carrier
Even in Vietnam we were still dropping thousands of tons of ordnance just to temporarily knock out railways and logistics facilities, turns out near misses are still just misses even when it comes to high explosives.
@@xxnightdriverxx9576 Plus, all it takes to repair them is replacing the damaged track section. Sets the enemy back a few days, but it's hardly a long term problem
When I visited Hanoi as a tourist in 2010, the first landmark in Hanoi proper we came across was a steel bridge the tour guide said, "the Americans kept bombing it and we kept rebuilding it."
Yeah, kind of weird to cite "reducing civilian casualties" as one of the reasons for this daylight raid when the entire point of the raid was maximum civilian casualties.
@@robm5008Watch the video dude. What do you think was planned when they bomb the city's dense populated areas to bomb the "homes of the railroad workers"?
Thank you for this well done documentation of a controversial bombing mission; namely, targeting civilians. This was unknown to me and hits home. As an American living in Berlin, my German mother-in-law (102 years old!) is from Münster and I am often there. My father landed on Utah beach on DDay and would have never imagined having a son who would one day be living in Berlin married to a German woman. Thank their sacrifices that we now live in peace. I do appreciate those , like yourself, who bring to light the unimaginable sacrifices and losses of those who came before us. You have a new subscriber…. Pass the word! Great job!!
Are we in peace though? 🤔 We are back to what your grandad lived through, USA vs Russia. Worst of all, our allies are weaker now (Republic of China, dwindling from all of mainland to just the island of Taiwan, Europe; most of whom have incompetent and inept militaries nowadays and relies on US handouts, etc).
I've studied in Münster. Lived in the residential area that was one of the target points. The area around the railway station is today known as Hawerkamp and houses a lot of Münster's clubs. Not interesting I guess but still an eerie feeling.
When war was over, all black US pilots had to go to separated areas from white pilots... but they thought killing civilians in muenster would be fighting racial segregators...
Was watching a Yarnhub the other day and noticed they made some stuff up about PT-109… I truly appreciate The Operation Room’s dedication to historical accuracy!
Agreed, the series lacks so much of the context and detail. Rushed because of a quarter of their budget being eaten by COVID compliance during filming.
You missed a part of the mission. They were told by command that one of the main targets was the Cathedral of the town, at noon.. on a Sunday, the reason behind this was never explained according to the pilots, but for obvious reasons it was to maximize the civilian casualties.
@@jamestagg2152It's possible that the city's cathedral was what the bombardier aimed at. It would have been one of only a few suitable landmarks from that altitude. At any rate, the hypocenter wound up being about 500 meters from the cathedral, in which perhaps a couple dozen parishioners were waiting to start confession. Nagasaki was the center of Japanese Christianity.
I'am convinced that every military history channel out there on youtube are coordinating behind the scenes to produce high quality content on the same subject from different angles and perspectives. Great work as always.
My uncle was killed in a mission to Munster on Nov. 5, 1943. Flak took out 2 engines on his B-24 and the German fighters finished the job. The plane was found about 15 years ago off Holland.
Like "Murder Incorporated."(and when that one got shot down, the Germans made no end of playing the name up, as they had of the picture of Churchill in a pinstriped suit wielding a Tommy gun.)
We still peel some of the bombs from the ground. I am from the area, really interesting to see how the raid worked. I just new that Coesfeld got hit by mistake, but never the rest of the circumstances. 18:25
I really like your combination of recreating the engagements with first hand quotes. Adding in the detail about one pilot remembering a cheer going up while others didn't shows the care you give to accuracy.
A Wocke Wolf 190 had 3.5 times the fire power of a Bomber gunner. Being attacked by 6 aircraft at the same time it's crazy is 20 to one. Cannon exploded like grenades upon hits. I don't really believe that sort of situation ever occur against those odds.
19:25 i read that they tried to bomb the airfield nearby Enschede, as it hosted german warplanes. But they did indeed hit the city itself, which is not that close to the airfield. So your information makes sense. In feb 1944 they did hit Enschede by accident. Although a few people speculate it was on purpose to damage V1 & V2 part production, but thats not widely accepted.
I grew up in Münster and live in Coesfeld (the town they bombed by mistake). I will always remember my grandmothers stories from her youth. She sat with her sister on a farmhouses roof in the vicinity of Münster, and they watched the bombing. It was the sisters’ birthday, and they invented that the bombing were fireworks for her. The sister died a year later of hunger. There are so many stories she has to tell from back then, and most of them are pretty terrifying. The cathedral has (or had, I’m not up to date) the pictures of Münster the following days. Luckily, the old town was rebuild and it has a pretty medieval flair in the city-center.
I was born 15 years after the war ended. All the adults in the family had many stories to tell and they were all euphoric to have survived this terrible time. Now I feel like Im another 15 years away from the next collossal human catastrophy. What an incredibly lucky generation we were.
@@Skandalos I absolutely feel what you mean. I’m way younger than that, and have been a soldier for over a decade now. Up until 2022 the worst thing expected was some incident when soldiers left on missions, that tourney around completely. But I hope that everything will be fine.
@@js1423 Thank you she shortly turned 92, it’s amazing to talk to her and hear her stories about past times. Sadly my great grandmother died when I was young at nearly 100 years old. She went through both world wars and saw so many things. Many of my late relatives were involved in one way or another. I don’t know their exact roles, and absolutely condemn what the system stood for, but so many stories untold, that’s a shame.
@@IgOr-rq3fg You never wanted to find out who in your family did what during the regime or war? How old was your grandma's sister when she died? If she had to use the fireworks as an explanation for the bombs, it had to be young. And when was this? During the war or after it?
Fantastic content. Seeing the visualization of all those bombers in a formation 75 miles long, I can only imagine the low hum that accompanied them on across the countryside. Just an unreal time to have been young. Hellish, and yet the heights of human achievement and cooperation before the digital era. The greatest generation, indeed.
Your videos are incredibly detailed and do the BEST job at displaying the intricacies of a historic battle. No diagram or PowerPoint could ever help someone learn these lessons from history the way you do.
@@handsomeheathen4739 No evidence = your statement is bullshit. Rosenthal's crew didn't contradict his story, so I'll just believe him and choose to ignore you.
@@RCAvhstape sorry bud, how it works is that you have to provide proof that you did something. the burden is not on us. many claims by military people are often propaganda and lies. i know it probably hurts you as a kid to have to tell you this.
Oh, I will definitely leave a comment. Every day that I open youtube, I hope for a new video from you. War history is one of my top 3 video categories, and you're my number one content provider by a loooongshot. You have been for years. Thanks for everything that you and everyone else who has been a part of the channel since the very beginning do.
My great uncle was a pilot of this bomb group and was shot down by flak Oct 10th 1943 flying the B-17 "Shack Rat". 2 crew members survived, the rest passed away unfortunately. My grandpa was just 12 years old when he lost his big brother.
Yet another fantastic video from the Operations Room. Currently watching Masters of the Air and its terrifying to see how each raid was more catastrophic for the 8th Air Force than the last. Must have been horrifying for the pilots on both sides. Love the WW2 content keep up the amazing work!
Very well made video as is typical. Your attention to detail, the detail you include with your illustrations, your annunciation, it’s all top notch work being done. Great stuff!
Another great video. It's a good companion to other media on the topic. You guys do a good job of showing how everything fits together, "getting a lay of the land." I really liked how you were able to incorporate multiple points of view. More of that would be good. Sometimes it isn't possible, like when the events are too recent. The perspective of the 100th Bomb Group reminds me of a Star Trek: TNG episode, "Yesterday's Enterprise," where it was like "welp, this is terrible, but we have to send them back."
@@TheOperationsRoom Yes, as an American I don't appreciate the misdirection for the dialogue on bombing civilian centers. It wasn't just a matter of opinion among bomber crew, it was a clearly stated part of their mission.
It was a really nice touch to put that photo of the raid over the animation around 16:50 to show how it looked like in real life during the raid. Also, I like how y'all put some stock images in early this time. I think you usually leave those to the end of an episode or even the end of an overall series.
This episode hits differently. The small mentioning of the Bremen bombing at the start - my father was born in Bremen in '39 and we lost relatives when my (great)grandparents shop was bombed to rubble - they went from prospering Shop-owners to homeless in a day. My mother was born in Münster in '44 and while she was still a baby in the hospital the town was bombed again (there's a whole other story how she even got to be born there) - luckily they didn't hit the hospital. It's a good episode and I feel better to hear the story told in this detail from the "other" side. (To be absolutely clear: "my" side is my parents' view, not the nazi side!)
@mainely8007 well, I do not know about their exact status, I know that they were well-to-do shop owners before the war. And yes, a lot of germans were cheering their armies on, while living relatively normal lives, at least in the beginning years of the war. And yes, a lot of germans ignored the atrocities of the nazis. Some later claimed they didn't know about it - out of sight, out of mind. Enough people gained through the deportation of jews and other minorities or the use of their cheap labor. Some companies are still around and kept their gains through the end of the war.
@mainely8007interesting that you're in favour of collective punishment 🤔, I must say that I am against it and generally oppose targeting civilians. But I guess if everyone would share my opinion war would either not exist or be fought as "gentlemen war" with only military casualties - or at least very very minor accidental loss of civilian life.
@@TheBlueCream Far from it, the Germans were in total war with the Soviets, but not the west. If it were total war, gas would have been used, explosive bullets and a bunch more restricted weapons, but they never did and only used those against the Soviets.
I was an American soldier and fought in Iraq and Afghanistan. I have seen more than my fair share of combat and to me this is more terrifying than anything. Being stuck in a tube thats bullet ridden, probably on fire, traveling hundreds of miles an hour, 10,000ft in the air, slinging rounds back and fourth. 1 stray bullet hits the wrong thing, and youre all going down, with such force you probably cant even pick yourself up to bail out. Screaming with your stomach in your throat like the most intense parts of a rollercoaster as you plummit toward the ground.. No thank you, Infantry will always be the 2nd most bad ass dudes to ever exist, thanks to these airmen. -Sincerely, a former 11B from the 101rst Airborne.
As a British Soldier having also deployed on Operations in Afghanistan. I too agree with your statement. As I was watching this I was trying to place myself into their position within a B-17. Having seen significant combat, I consider these men beyond brave, flying time after time over enemy territory in what is a munitions magnet. The utter courage allied bomber crews shown during WWII is truly humbling and in my opinion unsung. This history should be taught more in school as it begins to fade out of living memory because it appears to me that the world is forgetting. May their names live forevermore, lest we forget.
That sounds very similar to our family history: My father, John Allan Martin, enlisted in the Army Air Corps (1942), age 18, and served as a gunner and radio operator on B-17s and B-24s. He was assigned to the 8th Air Force in England and flew 35 combat missions over Europe. Including one shown as "SECRET" on his papers. According to him, later while watching “12 O’clock High” on TV, he thought that it was very well done and he liked the show. He did say that instead of the large letter “A” in the show their planes carried a large letter “P” there. He was in the 387th Bombardment Squadron of 487th Bombardment Group. The records for many crew members were lost during a fire at Fort Benjamin Harrison. His brother, age 20, was a Navy aviator flying in the Pacific area: his plane was shot down . The bad news was wired to the family, who were surprised three months later when he walked in the front door in his Navy uniform. My father had left the service at the end of the war and worked as a TV/Radio engineer. He was called back to duty for the Korean conflict but didn’t have to deploy; and stayed with the new US Air Force. He retired in 1968 after 26 years of active duty and died in 1976. His brother also passed in 2005. Both brothers are buried at Arlington National Cemetery. Regards
Thank you for highlighting the moral dilema faced by the flight crews before the mission. Brings history to life when you contemplate what others faced.
@@Jacksonflax I know. And my response is still the same. How would they have felt had their homeland had been bombed and American civilians killed? It's a hypothetical question, but given the experience of British people in WW2 I'm guessing they would have been less reluctant, and their ethics would have been severely challenged. Hell, you just have to see how little fucks were given about bombing Iraq and Afghanistan by Americans. Even no fucks were given about drone strikes that killed Pakistani civilians, who weren't even involved and are supposed to be a friendly nation.
Robert "Rosie" Rosenthal: A lawyer by profession. Started the war as a 2nd Lt. and ended the war as at Lt. Col. Flew a total of 52 missions. 2 tours. It' considered a miracle to survive 1 tour, let alone 2. Awards include: Distinguished Service Cross Distinguished Flying Cross x2 Purple Heart X2 Air Medal x8 The DSC is awarded to those who should had gotten the Medal of Honor, but didn't get it cuz reasons. Rosenthal's right arm was hit twice by flak, thus the two purple hearts. Rosenthal ended the war as assistant to the U.S. prosecutor during the Nuremberg trials. How's that for a final act. The man died in 2007. A salute to him and the Greatest Generation.
This video brings up one of the biggest issues with modern war discussions, and what our leaders need to have moral clarity on if we are ever to win a war again. What exactly is a civilian that is not a legal target? If "civilians" are creating war materials and growing food, then they are not civilians, but legal targets. The only moral way to fight a war is to fight as violently and overwhelmingly as possible, to end the bloodshed through victory as quickly as possible. To put the gloves back on makes the war take longer and more will die, without ever achieving the complete victory needed for long term peace. This mission was legal, moral, and horrible, all at the same time.
@@bob334 The penultimate horror, I would think, would be being a poor civilian in this situation. Would have to seem downright apocalyptic, giant machines battling in the sky, knowing that at any moment the bay-doors could swing open, and when they did, watching with increasing horror as you realize that this time, the resource they're targeting isn't the railways, or the factories of your industrial sector, *it's you.* You, the person, who has toiled, who has known hunger, and loss. You, the worker, are what has been deemed the most deleterious resource to lose, and there is no way to plead for clemency from men, in flying castles, thousands of feet above you, and even if you survive, *you are going to lose absolutely everything.* Such were the vicissitudes, of modern conflict. May God have mercy upon you as the fireflies fly.
@@iMajoraGaming That’s certainly an evocative piece of writing. Indeed, the evil that a few old men impose upon the many young and innocent, may be the greatest perpetual injustice of our times.
One of my favourite channels here on RUclips. I sincerely appreciate all the effort put into these videos. Can't imagine how long each one takes, from research, up to the editing and whatnot of the videos. Here's to more awesome videos in the future, Operations Room.
My wife’s grandfather flew a B-17 in the 95th BG. He retired a Colonel. He also knew Lieutenant Rosenthal. After watching this I got out my book on the Münster raid by Ian Hawkins , a must read!
Every time one of these videos come up I am kind of excited to see how battles were fought in recent wars, but by the end I am left with sadness about how many lives have been lost because of the greed of a few.
Don’t get me wrong I love every single video you guys make and watch every single one of them, but I’m glad that finally there’s some WWII content after half a year.
I was stationed in Munster during the 1980’s. I was wiped out most nights. Our base was a former luftwaffe fighter strip and everything in town looked new apart from the Cathedral. Between the cousins and us it was redeveloped several times over!
15:35 So funny to see a map of the place at that time. Until last year I lived there for a decade. Interesting to see the city blocks I lived in, near Südpark, to already exist at the time.
The map doesn't actually show the full extent of the city during WW2 (probably based on an older map): The southern edge between Hammer Str. and Weseler Str./Kappenberger Damm was at B51 - I lived there for 20 years. The southernmost east-west road on the map at 16:00 must be Inselbogen/Metzer Str. based on the continuation towards Ring and Aasee. That and the peninsula in the canal would put B51 and the edge of the city around the small gap in the forest south of that road.
My grandfather was a radio man on a B17 for the 8th and it wasn’t until after he passed did we get access to his service records. He never talked about his experiences and forgive me for being coy, but out of respect for him, I won’t either. But what gets me is that there are people who don’t understand the stress and toll these airmen went through. And that’s both physically and mentally…. I honestly was a bit disappointed in the recent miniseries because I think it failed to better show, but this episode was a highlight. To see a B17 being able to maneuver like that was spectacular. It’s not a fighter plane, but it still can perform when pushed to the limits. Hell, a 737 max for all of it faults thanks to Boeing can still duck and dodge in the hands of the right pilot.
I’ve to Münster few times, I had no idea, things like this happened over there. I can even recognise the aerials of the city. Nice work, Operations room
Strategic bombing is just a strategy which contributes to winning a broader military conflict. It creates the conditions which lead to frontline munitions and supply shortages and disrupts the coordination of those same front line soldiers, which are all essential elements to winning a military conflict. Additionally, civilians enabling a war effort are functionally indistinguishable from civilians working for the Defence Force. It's a distinction without difference and in war are broadly treated as such.
My father was Viennese and born in1940. Until his dying day had severe claustrophobia because of the times he had to spend in the subways when Vienna was bombed
@@trzeciazona9608surly the hundred - to hundreds of civilians that died in Wieluń we're victims of a war crime. Likewise the civilians that died in other attacked towns. But that holds irrespective of the nationality of the civilians. The millions of Iranians that starved under British occupation were likewise victims like the polish Jews in concentration camps or German civilians in Vienna, Dresden or Munster. On side it's very debatable if those attacks actually shortened the war (evidence says it didn't - it would have if the industrial capacity was attacked or military targets). On the other side we need to ask ourselves if the death of the civilian only matters when it's one of your own side. The problem is, if you would stick to that rule killing polish civilians from a German point of view was actually allowed. Likewise killing russian civilians is allowed now for Ukraine and killing Ukrainian civilians is now allowed for Russia. In short, this rule would mean that it's ok to kill civilians in any case - excep if they are from your own or allied nations.
what I said about my father was in reference to the raid that was posted on this channel. In a perfect world there would be no civilian bombings nor wars and we wouldnt even be having this conversaion. And yes I am also familiar with the crimes committed by the Nazis which were abhorent. My comment was specific to my father and in no way condoned what was done by the Nazis. That being said you have still not explained on your previous posts who I insulted so I assume you lied to get a response.
@@EHASS43991 I can use "the Nazis" in my sentences, while you should rather say "And yes I am also familiar with the crimes committed by Us which were abhorrent". BTW, you realize, that those bombings were the result of what your nation did to the others. It was the direct result of all the atrocities you committed, death camps, all those raids... and look what Austians are doing now. Your banks still support Putinist nazi Ruzzia. I believe, what you wrote above is just a political correctness, not something you trully believe in.
@@trzeciazona9608 So you are just ignoring what you stated earlier and have just decided to add more nonsense. Guess its too much to ask someone with mental issues for a cognisant explanation.
This is probably a stretch, but my grandfather is Theobald Charles Maurer, he was a bomber pilot and flew many missions over Germany. If you guys could ever put up a video that referenced him that would be amazing! Great video as always keep up the great work!
I'm so glad you guys did this one. MOTA had to really truncate the story for dramatic purposes but I really wanted to know what exactly happened on this raid. The way Rosie had taken evasive action and Deblasio using the ACM advantage to shoot down 6 enemy fighters was so cool, and rarely done on B-17 raids. Great work as usual Operations Room!
I’d love to see you do a break down on the final raid of the war conducted by the 15th AAF to Linz, Austria on April 25th, 1945 - it’s a fascinating story and shows just how brutal the fighting was up until the bitter end
Highly recommend to visit Münster (it has been mostly re-built, beautiful city atm) and the city museum At the end of the war only a couple of hundreds inhabitants were there, the city was completely devastated (despite on not having military targets there)
4:18 “Reduce civilian casualties” - this guy never misses a chance to throw in some misleading propaganda. These big raids were targeting civilians, supposedly to make the enemy surrender
As a former troop commander and commander of pilots, I could not conceive of sending men on such a suicide mission. "150 Belgians were deceased by mistake." Oh, well, that's okay then, right? One minute these people are incinerating babies from the air, and the next, they are asking for mercy after they parachute down in enemy territory. I don't think it's ever going to work that way.
The cost of not doing it was far worst. They didn't have much of a choice. Having the courage to go into a battle knowing you will die is missing in today's society.
@@michaelmichaelagnew8503 That whole "war" was unnecessary and immoral. Just like today's Ukraine that has fed more than $200 BILLION "free" U.S. taxpayer money to "certain people" in the military-industrial complex.
@@natowaveenjoyer9862 What a deranged comment. You really need mental help. You think Curtis Lemay "singing Baby Shark" is funny or appropriate? I hope you get some mental therapy. I have opposed post-birth abortion all of my life. And I am NOT going to discuss that very personal and non-sequitur subject with you any further on this forum. 'Bye. Blocked.
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Did you and Yarnhub release the Münster videos at the same time or was that coincidence?
Why is it always new users XD
"Hey! I hope you are doing great today! I was about to say that if you can make any interesting ww1 battle like? Tannenberg🏇⚔️, Gallipoli🏝️⚔️, Jutland⚓, Cambrai⚔️, Passchendaele⚔️, Verdun🏰⚔️, Somme💀⚔️ or etc... But the battle that i want to make is Verdun because here... !They shall not pass!
16:30, basically a war crime.
Our neighbour, an old lady working one of the farms in the village I grew up, told us about an RAF pilot they found in the woods. The local nazi leader interrogated him and they found out that he had just bombed Stuttgart, but got shot down by anti air guns. That particular air raid was targeted at the train station and the inner city of Stuttgart. Hundreds of people burned alive.
They hanged the pilot then and there at the big oak tree on the village entrance.
My mom was shocked but the old lady said, "Er war ein Kindermörder" (he was a child killer).
btw WOW is a dead game, nobody plays that garbage anymore.
I'm currently watching this video on the top floor of the yellow building that is at 1 o'clock to the top tip of the blue star that is the moat of the Schloss in the west of Münster, and funnily enough when I moved into this flat and redecorated the walls, I noticed that most of the the walls seemed to have originally only been built up to half their current height. Didnt think too much of it though, and went about my life.
A few months later I was in the kiosk (basically a kind of seven-eleven) round the corner, and an ancient man came in. We chatted for a moment, he asked me where i live, and i told him the adress.
''ha! That's where we used to run! The whole street would meet in that cellar, cause it had the communal bomb shelter.''
I told him that now that he mentioned it, there was one part of the cellar that had a big iron door, and he nodded.
''But we were never worried, the boys on the roof always nailed it'' he said with a slight grin, and plodded away.
I'm now almost positive, that the half-story that was added after the war was to build up the part of the roof that used to hold the flak-battery.
Smol world innit.
Very interesting story!
Based old German.
Wild.
technically you can say your home once had an 88cm cannon?
@Arash_Leopard more like my home once WAS an 88cm cannon!
Can I ask you all a favour? If you enjoy this episode, could you please hit the like button and/or leave a comment, it helps us massively. Appreciate you all!
ENGAGEMENT!
yep. this is a comment
@@stellarfox5869 sure is
I love the content. Keep it up!
Have you guys considered doing an in-depth video about the bomber crew that got escorted by a German Ace? I cant remember the details of that story but I thought it was a showing of mercy in a brutal war such as WWII.
Thumbs up for the merge of animation and historical photographs @16:44. Montemayor did the same in his Pearl Harbor video.
Do the 90 year olds give you a hard time?
I posted also, I think Operations Room is the best of these videos, but Montemayor's Pearl Harbor is great. I've watched it several times.
The overlayed photos really hit home how real the raid was, and how real the town and people who were affected were
@@robertfarmer9901My favorite Montemayor videos are Savo island and Midway (japanese perspective)
YOU HEARD IT.
ROSENTHAL
THIS VIDEO IS A LIE
😂
i wasnt a huge fan of master of the air, but this mission was absolutely done well in the show. theres no other words i can use to describe it than sheer insanity. the variety and scale of suffering of wwii really outstrips human comprehension
I agree. The suffering of the civilians during ww2 was in many ways insane
Was it not just though as the end to suffering as a direct result of the war lead to the lesser of two evils. Most wars are not as just.
It's such an odd thing isn't it? The memory is becoming very distant and the number of people who experienced it firsthand is dwindling, but I feel like we still haven't collectively comprehended the whole thing.
It's kind of a shame that it didn't live up to its potential. From the bland characters, to the ridiculously unrealistic CGI (talking motion, not graphical fidelity), to the disjointed narrative. I wasn't expecting Band of Brothers quality, because how could you, but I was expecting more than _that._
I liked Masters of the Air a lot, besides Austin Butler, he was terrible and completely out of place.
My grandpa flew B-24s in china during WW2. I recently found a book that features him on a raid. On this mission the plane “Chug-a-Lug” was shot up so bad the navigation papers flew out the cockpit, and most of his crew was injured. He made it back to a friendly runway but the plane was so damaged he had to land going 140 with no flaps and the plane went into a spin upon hitting the ground. Funny enough even while crash landing he managed to put the plane into the designated parking area. He crashed on another mission and was taken POW, he didn’t tell my dad much of anything about that, but I can bet it was not a good experience. He died when I was 3 but I imagine he was a cool guy. My dad said his PTSD was bad. RIP Leland Borden Farnell
your grandpa sounds like he was badass as hell
My uncle fought japs in the philippines It took me several years as a kid to get him to tell me anything of the war there. He did tell me several stories most very bad time.
Are you really on here bragging about your grandpa the warcriminal ?
@@christianschulz1443 Absolutely ignorant comment
@@christianschulz1443bro several American volunteer divisions went to China to fight the Japanese calling him a war criminal is ingenious at best and downright wrong at worst
These graphic re-enactments of significant battles is one of the few channels I will watch immediately when they come up….outstanding way to understand the complexities of battle.
"Not everybody saw himself in the murder business.. but most men trusted their leaders" almost sounds like there were similar thoughts on both sides.
That's what they said at Nuremberg. No difference. Patton: "We defeated the wrong enemy."
And yet, there are some leaders actually are deserving of trust, and some who are not.
Anytime I look at the stories of bomb raids from the allies i am reminded how they were the same evil they were supposedly fighting. They just got away with it.
@@delta5297 Funny how the leaders worthy of trust always happens to be on the winning side, quite the coincidence
@@TheLassahThere is no denying Hitler was evil. On the other hand, Truman bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki when he knew he didn't need to. Bad leaders on both sides.
Although Americans don't know or use the letter "Ü", it is essential to distinguish the city of Münster (the bombed city) and Munster (200km away from Münster).
Good point. Updated!
Did they do this to confuse English speakers? Because naming two towns almost the same thing (just one without an umlaut over it) feels intentional…
The Americans accidently travel westward and hit the Irish province of Munster
@@edm240b9
Nope.
Which one has the cheese?
Band of Brothers made me fear winter, The Pacific made me fear the jungle, Masters of the Air makes me fear flying. I hope they do a series on WW2 submariners next. They could do three perspectives or an anthology: U-boats, merchant marine convoys, and American submariners in the Pacific.
Das Boot And GreyHound
Yeah the subs in the pacific don't get enough coverage with how vital they were
The ultimate TV-series (and movie) on U-boats has been done already. It doesn't get any better than Das Boot. I agree about the convoys though. The civilians in the merchant navy played a critical role in the war effort, but never really got the recognition they deserved from filmmakers. I can't think of a single movie or TV-series that focuses on them. At least those American submariners in the Pacific got Operation Petticoat. That's something.
@@spiffywolf2850 because pasific theather is focused on Battleship and Carrier Battle. There is a little battle betwen ship fleet vs submarine group. But still there is 1 submarine that sink japanese experimental Heavy Carrier
The pacific naval conquest would be a phenomenal series
Even in Vietnam we were still dropping thousands of tons of ordnance just to temporarily knock out railways and logistics facilities, turns out near misses are still just misses even when it comes to high explosives.
A lot of the damage from bombing comes from shrapnel, debris, fires, etc. Railway tracks are rather resistent to those.
@@xxnightdriverxx9576 Plus, all it takes to repair them is replacing the damaged track section. Sets the enemy back a few days, but it's hardly a long term problem
When I visited Hanoi as a tourist in 2010, the first landmark in Hanoi proper we came across was a steel bridge the tour guide said, "the Americans kept bombing it and we kept rebuilding it."
@@ThunderPanzer but that's still steel that isn't being used in tanks, U-boats or aircraft.
La méthode assassin des américains..
Day raids were never to "avoiding civilian casualties", it was about more higher chances for hitting the target.
They wanted as many civilian casualties as possible. They even thought it was funny.
@@storm___ who did?
Yeah, kind of weird to cite "reducing civilian casualties" as one of the reasons for this daylight raid when the entire point of the raid was maximum civilian casualties.
@@robm5008Watch the video dude.
What do you think was planned when they bomb the city's dense populated areas to bomb the "homes of the railroad workers"?
Any strategic bomber raid was to maximize civilian casualties. WW2 was packed full of warcrimes from everyone
Thank you for this well done documentation of a controversial bombing mission; namely, targeting civilians. This was unknown to me and hits home. As an American living in Berlin, my German mother-in-law (102 years old!) is from Münster and I am often there. My father landed on Utah beach on DDay and would have never imagined having a son who would one day be living in Berlin married to a German woman. Thank their sacrifices that we now live in peace. I do appreciate those , like yourself, who bring to light the unimaginable sacrifices and losses of those who came before us. You have a new subscriber…. Pass the word! Great job!!
Les américains sont des assassins...
Living among the enemy 😒
Are we in peace though? 🤔 We are back to what your grandad lived through, USA vs Russia. Worst of all, our allies are weaker now (Republic of China, dwindling from all of mainland to just the island of Taiwan, Europe; most of whom have incompetent and inept militaries nowadays and relies on US handouts, etc).
Grüße nach Berlin
I've studied in Münster. Lived in the residential area that was one of the target points.
The area around the railway station is today known as Hawerkamp and houses a lot of Münster's clubs.
Not interesting I guess but still an eerie feeling.
When war was over, all black US pilots had to go to separated areas from white pilots... but they thought killing civilians in muenster would be fighting racial segregators...
Was watching a Yarnhub the other day and noticed they made some stuff up about PT-109… I truly appreciate The Operation Room’s dedication to historical accuracy!
I just visited the 8th Air Force museum outside of Savannah, GA a couple week’s ago so it’s awesome to see this video!
This is far better than masters of the air.
One of the only channels i actually click on when i get the notification.
Agreed, the series lacks so much of the context and detail. Rushed because of a quarter of their budget being eaten by COVID compliance during filming.
I o pop
@@6tuf85dyfu💯💯💯
MoTA's CGI was about as bad as that 2012 'Fortress' movie.
You missed a part of the mission. They were told by command that one of the main targets was the Cathedral of the town, at noon.. on a Sunday, the reason behind this was never explained according to the pilots, but for obvious reasons it was to maximize the civilian casualties.
Christian civilian casualties
Any guesses what they aimed for in Nagasaki, and what was happening at that time?
@@thadrobinson8343 The center of town?
But, they were fighting for "decency" and "human rights". Hmm...I wonder group hates Christ and Christians most? Hmm...
@@jamestagg2152It's possible that the city's cathedral was what the bombardier aimed at. It would have been one of only a few suitable landmarks from that altitude. At any rate, the hypocenter wound up being about 500 meters from the cathedral, in which perhaps a couple dozen parishioners were waiting to start confession. Nagasaki was the center of Japanese Christianity.
I'am convinced that every military history channel out there on youtube are coordinating behind the scenes to produce high quality content on the same subject from different angles and perspectives.
Great work as always.
or with the exact same angles and perspectives
My uncle was killed in a mission to Munster on Nov. 5, 1943. Flak took out 2 engines on his B-24 and the German fighters finished the job. The plane was found about 15 years ago off Holland.
your uncle was a murderer and he was killed as a murderer
@@blitzkopf7267here comes the crybaby
@blitzkopf7267 no, my uncle died to save the world from a whole nation of murderers.
Shut up traier dweller
@@blitzkopf7267Salty your side lost?
At 2:15 “Miss Carry” is a brutal bomber name
Like "Murder Incorporated."(and when that one got shot down, the Germans made no end of playing the name up, as they had of the picture of Churchill in a pinstriped suit wielding a Tommy gun.)
another one is a B-29 called "necessary evil" it accompanied the B-29 "enola gay" that dropped the atom bomb on hiroshima.
@@SnafuWT Nescessary Evil is a kickass name tbh
We still peel some of the bombs from the ground. I am from the area, really interesting to see how the raid worked. I just new that Coesfeld got hit by mistake, but never the rest of the circumstances. 18:25
"i was just listening orders" goes for both sides i guess
16:30 one must not forget that the city center and the residential Area, the aim point for the attack, were home of civilians!
The *_residential_* area was home to *_civilians_* ? You don't say!
When Yarnhub and Operations Room inadvertently do the same topic the same weekend-
I was gonna comment the same thing hahahahah
I was abit confused at first. But both tellings were captivating!
Both Probably somewhat inspired by MOTA
I really like your combination of recreating the engagements with first hand quotes. Adding in the detail about one pilot remembering a cheer going up while others didn't shows the care you give to accuracy.
A Wocke Wolf 190 had 3.5 times the fire power of a Bomber gunner. Being attacked by 6 aircraft at the same time it's crazy is 20 to one. Cannon exploded like grenades upon hits. I don't really believe that sort of situation ever occur against those odds.
19:25 i read that they tried to bomb the airfield nearby Enschede, as it hosted german warplanes. But they did indeed hit the city itself, which is not that close to the airfield. So your information makes sense.
In feb 1944 they did hit Enschede by accident. Although a few people speculate it was on purpose to damage V1 & V2 part production, but thats not widely accepted.
Enschede sure has been mighty combustable over the years
I grew up in Münster and live in Coesfeld (the town they bombed by mistake).
I will always remember my grandmothers stories from her youth.
She sat with her sister on a farmhouses roof in the vicinity of Münster, and they watched the bombing. It was the sisters’ birthday, and they invented that the bombing were fireworks for her. The sister died a year later of hunger.
There are so many stories she has to tell from back then, and most of them are pretty terrifying.
The cathedral has (or had, I’m not up to date) the pictures of Münster the following days.
Luckily, the old town was rebuild and it has a pretty medieval flair in the city-center.
I was born 15 years after the war ended. All the adults in the family had many stories to tell and they were all euphoric to have survived this terrible time. Now I feel like Im another 15 years away from the next collossal human catastrophy. What an incredibly lucky generation we were.
Sorry to hear about your grandmother’s loss of her sister
@@Skandalos
I absolutely feel what you mean. I’m way younger than that, and have been a soldier for over a decade now. Up until 2022 the worst thing expected was some incident when soldiers left on missions, that tourney around completely. But I hope that everything will be fine.
@@js1423
Thank you she shortly turned 92, it’s amazing to talk to her and hear her stories about past times. Sadly my great grandmother died when I was young at nearly 100 years old. She went through both world wars and saw so many things. Many of my late relatives were involved in one way or another. I don’t know their exact roles, and absolutely condemn what the system stood for, but so many stories untold, that’s a shame.
@@IgOr-rq3fg You never wanted to find out who in your family did what during the regime or war?
How old was your grandma's sister when she died? If she had to use the fireworks as an explanation for the bombs, it had to be young. And when was this? During the war or after it?
Fantastic content. Seeing the visualization of all those bombers in a formation 75 miles long, I can only imagine the low hum that accompanied them on across the countryside. Just an unreal time to have been young. Hellish, and yet the heights of human achievement and cooperation before the digital era. The greatest generation, indeed.
Your videos are incredibly detailed and do the BEST job at displaying the intricacies of a historic battle. No diagram or PowerPoint could ever help someone learn these lessons from history the way you do.
Rosenthal handling his Fort like a fighter plane, with only 2 engines, dodging rockets and getting his men home. What a boss.
They really should've made him the main character in MotA. I thought he was a much more enjoyable story to follow than Cleven or Egan.
@@handsomeheathen4739 That's a serious charge to make. Got any evidence that he lied?
@@handsomeheathen4739 No evidence = your statement is bullshit. Rosenthal's crew didn't contradict his story, so I'll just believe him and choose to ignore you.
@@RCAvhstape I don't believe him because his name is Rosenthal. Simple as.
@@RCAvhstape sorry bud, how it works is that you have to provide proof that you did something. the burden is not on us. many claims by military people are often propaganda and lies. i know it probably hurts you as a kid to have to tell you this.
The amount of fight given and taken by the 100th is insane
I'd like to see you cover the Battle of Raattentie which took place during the winter war. It's one of the more famous battles during the war.
Oh, I will definitely leave a comment. Every day that I open youtube, I hope for a new video from you. War history is one of my top 3 video categories, and you're my number one content provider by a loooongshot. You have been for years. Thanks for everything that you and everyone else who has been a part of the channel since the very beginning do.
My great uncle was a pilot of this bomb group and was shot down by flak Oct 10th 1943 flying the B-17 "Shack Rat". 2 crew members survived, the rest passed away unfortunately. My grandpa was just 12 years old when he lost his big brother.
Losing that many aircraft on one mission would have been devastating for the 100th.
It was.
As an American living in Muenster this is incredible
Get out
@@user-kc6qr5eo1k ?
@@user-kc6qr5eo1kKosovo is a country ☺️
@@user-kc6qr5eo1kcope
@@user-kc6qr5eo1k 😂
Yet another fantastic video from the Operations Room. Currently watching Masters of the Air and its terrifying to see how each raid was more catastrophic for the 8th Air Force than the last. Must have been horrifying for the pilots on both sides. Love the WW2 content keep up the amazing work!
Very well made video as is typical. Your attention to detail, the detail you include with your illustrations, your annunciation, it’s all top notch work being done. Great stuff!
Another great video. It's a good companion to other media on the topic. You guys do a good job of showing how everything fits together, "getting a lay of the land." I really liked how you were able to incorporate multiple points of view. More of that would be good. Sometimes it isn't possible, like when the events are too recent. The perspective of the 100th Bomb Group reminds me of a Star Trek: TNG episode, "Yesterday's Enterprise," where it was like "welp, this is terrible, but we have to send them back."
Just saw this on 'Masters of the Air'! Love that you're covering this!
I saw this on Yarnhub.
Yes, they didn't quite want to admit to the targeting civilians part though... "The city centre is nearby so accuracy is paramount" Hmmmm
@@TheOperationsRoom As Churchill put it they were simply, "dehousing the Germans."
@@TheOperationsRoom As Churchill put it they were simply, "dehousing the Germans."
@@TheOperationsRoom Yes, as an American I don't appreciate the misdirection for the dialogue on bombing civilian centers. It wasn't just a matter of opinion among bomber crew, it was a clearly stated part of their mission.
It was a really nice touch to put that photo of the raid over the animation around 16:50 to show how it looked like in real life during the raid. Also, I like how y'all put some stock images in early this time. I think you usually leave those to the end of an episode or even the end of an overall series.
Thank you for making these. In the era of historical inaccuracies, this channel brings to light much needed factuality.
Fantastic video. Thanks for including excerpts of first-hand experiences. It gives us a glimpse of what all these people went through.
The mortality rate for these airmen was astounding. The controversial aspect of this particular mission was the suicidal quality and the utter waste.
This episode hits differently. The small mentioning of the Bremen bombing at the start - my father was born in Bremen in '39 and we lost relatives when my (great)grandparents shop was bombed to rubble - they went from prospering Shop-owners to homeless in a day. My mother was born in Münster in '44 and while she was still a baby in the hospital the town was bombed again (there's a whole other story how she even got to be born there) - luckily they didn't hit the hospital.
It's a good episode and I feel better to hear the story told in this detail from the "other" side. (To be absolutely clear: "my" side is my parents' view, not the nazi side!)
war is hell... sorry for your loss :(
@mainely8007 well, I do not know about their exact status, I know that they were well-to-do shop owners before the war. And yes, a lot of germans were cheering their armies on, while living relatively normal lives, at least in the beginning years of the war.
And yes, a lot of germans ignored the atrocities of the nazis. Some later claimed they didn't know about it - out of sight, out of mind. Enough people gained through the deportation of jews and other minorities or the use of their cheap labor. Some companies are still around and kept their gains through the end of the war.
@mainely8007interesting that you're in favour of collective punishment 🤔, I must say that I am against it and generally oppose targeting civilians. But I guess if everyone would share my opinion war would either not exist or be fought as "gentlemen war" with only military casualties - or at least very very minor accidental loss of civilian life.
Grow a pair and acknowledge the slaughter of your people. Everything told about germany is a lie.
@mainely8007
Collectivist. Bah. Your kind disgusts me.
Pray that your measure will never be hold against you.
What a horrific result for a pointless and unconscionable mission.
it was neither..we were in a TOTAL WAR
@@TheBlueCream Far from it, the Germans were in total war with the Soviets, but not the west. If it were total war, gas would have been used, explosive bullets and a bunch more restricted weapons, but they never did and only used those against the Soviets.
I was an American soldier and fought in Iraq and Afghanistan. I have seen more than my fair share of combat and to me this is more terrifying than anything. Being stuck in a tube thats bullet ridden, probably on fire, traveling hundreds of miles an hour, 10,000ft in the air, slinging rounds back and fourth. 1 stray bullet hits the wrong thing, and youre all going down, with such force you probably cant even pick yourself up to bail out. Screaming with your stomach in your throat like the most intense parts of a rollercoaster as you plummit toward the ground.. No thank you, Infantry will always be the 2nd most bad ass dudes to ever exist, thanks to these airmen. -Sincerely, a former 11B from the 101rst Airborne.
As a British Soldier having also deployed on Operations in Afghanistan. I too agree with your statement. As I was watching this I was trying to place myself into their position within a B-17. Having seen significant combat, I consider these men beyond brave, flying time after time over enemy territory in what is a munitions magnet. The utter courage allied bomber crews shown during WWII is truly humbling and in my opinion unsung.
This history should be taught more in school as it begins to fade out of living memory because it appears to me that the world is forgetting.
May their names live forevermore, lest we forget.
That sounds very similar to our family history:
My father, John Allan Martin, enlisted in the Army Air Corps (1942), age 18, and served as a gunner and radio operator on B-17s and B-24s. He was assigned to the 8th Air Force in England and flew 35 combat missions over Europe. Including one shown as "SECRET" on his papers.
According to him, later while watching “12 O’clock High” on TV, he thought that it was very well done and he liked the show. He did say that instead of the large letter “A” in the show their planes carried a large letter “P” there. He was in the 387th Bombardment Squadron of 487th Bombardment Group. The records for many crew members were lost during a fire at Fort Benjamin Harrison.
His brother, age 20, was a Navy aviator flying in the Pacific area: his plane was shot down . The bad news was wired to the family, who were surprised three months later when he walked in the front door in his Navy uniform.
My father had left the service at the end of the war and worked as a TV/Radio engineer. He was called back to duty for the Korean conflict but didn’t have to deploy; and stayed with the new US Air Force. He retired in 1968 after 26 years of active duty and died in 1976. His brother also passed in 2005.
Both brothers are buried at Arlington National Cemetery.
Regards
It is always incredible to see the spirit and strength that those boys showed, risking everything for peace.
Thank you for keeping history relevant to the world.
Thank you for highlighting the moral dilema faced by the flight crews before the mission. Brings history to life when you contemplate what others faced.
Wonder if they would have felt the same if their homeland had been bombed.
@@pencilpauli9442 they literally said the majority of aircrews did not feel remotely good about this decision...
@@Jacksonflax
I know. And my response is still the same.
How would they have felt had their homeland had been bombed and American civilians killed?
It's a hypothetical question, but given the experience of British people in WW2 I'm guessing they would have been less reluctant, and their ethics would have been severely challenged.
Hell, you just have to see how little fucks were given about bombing Iraq and Afghanistan by Americans. Even no fucks were given about drone strikes that killed Pakistani civilians, who weren't even involved and are supposed to be a friendly nation.
@@pencilpauli9442 Afghanistan? Afghanistan probably had the most balls-tied rules of engagement of any recorded conflict in the last 100 years
@@Jacksonflax
Oh well that totes puts the mockers on my argument 🙄🙄
Even knowing what was coming, this was still a hard episode to watch in "Masters of the AIr".
Right on the heels of finishing Masters of Air and this gem comes out. You guys never fail to impress!
You guys are in my top 5 channels. Thanks for the awesome work and all your hard work. We all appreciate it.
I live 1 mile away from this airfield, a lot of the lay out is still there, great founding about what was happening there, great work keep it coming
Just an Information:
Münster and Munster are two different Cities!
One of the best channels on RUclips
Always enjoy the air campaign videos.
Gut und ausnahmsweise sehr neutral präsentiert.
Danke und Grüße
Robert "Rosie" Rosenthal:
A lawyer by profession. Started the war as a 2nd Lt. and ended the war as at Lt. Col.
Flew a total of 52 missions. 2 tours. It' considered a miracle to survive 1 tour, let alone 2.
Awards include:
Distinguished Service Cross
Distinguished Flying Cross x2
Purple Heart X2
Air Medal x8
The DSC is awarded to those who should had gotten the Medal of Honor, but didn't get it cuz reasons. Rosenthal's right arm was hit twice by flak, thus the two purple hearts.
Rosenthal ended the war as assistant to the U.S. prosecutor during the Nuremberg trials. How's that for a final act.
The man died in 2007. A salute to him and the Greatest Generation.
This video brings up one of the biggest issues with modern war discussions, and what our leaders need to have moral clarity on if we are ever to win a war again.
What exactly is a civilian that is not a legal target?
If "civilians" are creating war materials and growing food, then they are not civilians, but legal targets.
The only moral way to fight a war is to fight as violently and overwhelmingly as possible, to end the bloodshed through victory as quickly as possible. To put the gloves back on makes the war take longer and more will die, without ever achieving the complete victory needed for long term peace.
This mission was legal, moral, and horrible, all at the same time.
It wasn’t moral to the German workers and their families. What chances were they given to escape this?
Pretty fair viewpoint. That's why NATO and its US directors should stop sending weapons to Ukraine.
Did you and Yarnhub intentionally post a vid on the same topic or is that just a coincidence?
Coincidence, it has been one video production cycle since Masters of the Air!
@@TheOperationsRoomfigures
I take white-knuckle flights as is.
Simply can’t fathom the fear these dudes were experiencing.
The dudes in planes or the dudes on the ground?
@@bob334 The penultimate horror, I would think, would be being a poor civilian in this situation.
Would have to seem downright apocalyptic, giant machines battling in the sky, knowing that at any moment the bay-doors could swing open, and when they did, watching with increasing horror as you realize that this time, the resource they're targeting isn't the railways, or the factories of your industrial sector, *it's you.* You, the person, who has toiled, who has known hunger, and loss. You, the worker, are what has been deemed the most deleterious resource to lose, and there is no way to plead for clemency from men, in flying castles, thousands of feet above you, and even if you survive, *you are going to lose absolutely everything.*
Such were the vicissitudes, of modern conflict.
May God have mercy upon you as the fireflies fly.
@@iMajoraGaming That’s certainly an evocative piece of writing. Indeed, the evil that a few old men impose upon the many young and innocent, may be the greatest perpetual injustice of our times.
One of my favourite channels here on RUclips. I sincerely appreciate all the effort put into these videos. Can't imagine how long each one takes, from research, up to the editing and whatnot of the videos.
Here's to more awesome videos in the future, Operations Room.
As always, you did an excellent job recounting this story for future generations! I hope they find as much inspiration as we have in these stories
I love how yarnhub and the operations room posted a vid on the same topic with just a few days between them
Those are some awfully modern maps of the Netherlands
My wife’s grandfather flew a B-17 in the 95th BG. He retired a Colonel. He also knew Lieutenant Rosenthal. After watching this I got out my book on the Münster raid by Ian Hawkins , a must read!
I love this channel so much. It’s like a nice college history lecture during my lunch brake. Absolutely awesome.
Proactive piloting skills and an accurate gunner are pretty helpful to have onboard in a time of crisis.
Every time one of these videos come up I am kind of excited to see how battles were fought in recent wars, but by the end I am left with sadness about how many lives have been lost because of the greed of a few.
That tail gunner is exaggerating like hell. Lol
like I know this channel is allied centric but seriously, why involve an unconfirmed encounter like this?
@@adambrande He made it 100% clear that they were not verified kills.
Ahh back to the classic videos.. the reason why I subscribed. ^^
Don’t get me wrong I love every single video you guys make and watch every single one of them, but I’m glad that finally there’s some WWII content after half a year.
I was stationed in Munster during the 1980’s. I was wiped out most nights. Our base was a former luftwaffe fighter strip and everything in town looked new apart from the Cathedral. Between the cousins and us it was redeveloped several times over!
15:35 So funny to see a map of the place at that time. Until last year I lived there for a decade. Interesting to see the city blocks I lived in, near Südpark, to already exist at the time.
The map doesn't actually show the full extent of the city during WW2 (probably based on an older map): The southern edge between Hammer Str. and Weseler Str./Kappenberger Damm was at B51 - I lived there for 20 years. The southernmost east-west road on the map at 16:00 must be Inselbogen/Metzer Str. based on the continuation towards Ring and Aasee. That and the peninsula in the canal would put B51 and the edge of the city around the small gap in the forest south of that road.
My grandfather was a radio man on a B17 for the 8th and it wasn’t until after he passed did we get access to his service records. He never talked about his experiences and forgive me for being coy, but out of respect for him, I won’t either. But what gets me is that there are people who don’t understand the stress and toll these airmen went through. And that’s both physically and mentally….
I honestly was a bit disappointed in the recent miniseries because I think it failed to better show, but this episode was a highlight. To see a B17 being able to maneuver like that was spectacular. It’s not a fighter plane, but it still can perform when pushed to the limits. Hell, a 737 max for all of it faults thanks to Boeing can still duck and dodge in the hands of the right pilot.
Great documentary
This video was better than the whole "Masters of the Air" series
I’ve to Münster few times, I had no idea, things like this happened over there. I can even recognise the aerials of the city. Nice work, Operations room
Remember kids, they ain't war crimes if you win.
It's called war. It's bad.
Strategic bombing is just a strategy which contributes to winning a broader military conflict.
It creates the conditions which lead to frontline munitions and supply shortages and disrupts the coordination of those same front line soldiers, which are all essential elements to winning a military conflict.
Additionally, civilians enabling a war effort are functionally indistinguishable from civilians working for the Defence Force. It's a distinction without difference and in war are broadly treated as such.
My father was Viennese and born in1940. Until his dying day had severe claustrophobia because of the times he had to spend in the subways when Vienna was bombed
@@trzeciazona9608surly the hundred - to hundreds of civilians that died in Wieluń we're victims of a war crime. Likewise the civilians that died in other attacked towns.
But that holds irrespective of the nationality of the civilians. The millions of Iranians that starved under British occupation were likewise victims like the polish Jews in concentration camps or German civilians in Vienna, Dresden or Munster.
On side it's very debatable if those attacks actually shortened the war (evidence says it didn't - it would have if the industrial capacity was attacked or military targets).
On the other side we need to ask ourselves if the death of the civilian only matters when it's one of your own side.
The problem is, if you would stick to that rule killing polish civilians from a German point of view was actually allowed. Likewise killing russian civilians is allowed now for Ukraine and killing Ukrainian civilians is now allowed for Russia.
In short, this rule would mean that it's ok to kill civilians in any case - excep if they are from your own or allied nations.
what I said about my father was in reference to the raid that was posted on this channel. In a perfect world there would be no civilian bombings nor wars and we wouldnt even be having this conversaion. And yes I am also familiar with the crimes committed by the Nazis which were abhorent. My comment was specific to my father and in no way condoned what was done by the Nazis. That being said you have still not explained on your previous posts who I insulted so I assume you lied to get a response.
@@EHASS43991 I can use "the Nazis" in my sentences, while you should rather say "And yes I am also familiar with the crimes committed by Us which were abhorrent". BTW, you realize, that those bombings were the result of what your nation did to the others. It was the direct result of all the atrocities you committed, death camps, all those raids... and look what Austians are doing now. Your banks still support Putinist nazi Ruzzia. I believe, what you wrote above is just a political correctness, not something you trully believe in.
@@trzeciazona9608 So you are just ignoring what you stated earlier and have just decided to add more nonsense. Guess its too much to ask someone with mental issues for a cognisant explanation.
@@trzeciazona9608 So thats a no.
This is probably a stretch, but my grandfather is Theobald Charles Maurer, he was a bomber pilot and flew many missions over Germany. If you guys could ever put up a video that referenced him that would be amazing!
Great video as always keep up the great work!
Maurer sounds very, very german tho
@@Eisenhammer78 he was! That’s what makes it more interesting
Just finished masters of the air last week. I love your stuff!
I'm grateful for this high quality WW2 history, thanks!
Just started reading Masters of the air and this video comes out!
Royal Flush got that War Thunder skills in them
I'm so glad you guys did this one. MOTA had to really truncate the story for dramatic purposes but I really wanted to know what exactly happened on this raid. The way Rosie had taken evasive action and Deblasio using the ACM advantage to shoot down 6 enemy fighters was so cool, and rarely done on B-17 raids. Great work as usual Operations Room!
Great job on the map overlays. Cool to see the actual photos layered on the videos map.
I’d love to see you do a break down on the final raid of the war conducted by the 15th AAF to Linz, Austria on April 25th, 1945 - it’s a fascinating story and shows just how brutal the fighting was up until the bitter end
4.23 am malaysia time,min 18
Hello everybody
Highly recommend to visit Münster (it has been mostly re-built, beautiful city atm) and the city museum
At the end of the war only a couple of hundreds inhabitants were there, the city was completely devastated (despite on not having military targets there)
4:18 “Reduce civilian casualties” - this guy never misses a chance to throw in some misleading propaganda. These big raids were targeting civilians, supposedly to make the enemy surrender
Thank you for sharing such a detailed account of the mission.
Best historic engagement visualization channel on youtube, hands down 💪🏼
Well boys we meet again
👀
Masters of the Air was ultimately disappointing as a show. Thankfully, Operations Room exists to fill in all the missing details.
As a former troop commander and commander of pilots, I could not conceive of sending men on such a suicide mission.
"150 Belgians were deceased by mistake." Oh, well, that's okay then, right?
One minute these people are incinerating babies from the air, and the next, they are asking for mercy after they parachute down in enemy territory. I don't think it's ever going to work that way.
It was World War, its not the same conflict as it it is in Ukraine or middle east
The cost of not doing it was far worst. They didn't have much of a choice. Having the courage to go into a battle knowing you will die is missing in today's society.
@@michaelmichaelagnew8503 That whole "war" was unnecessary and immoral. Just like today's Ukraine that has fed more than $200 BILLION "free" U.S. taxpayer money to "certain people" in the military-industrial complex.
If I told you they were just doing a post-birth abortion, would you feel better?
@@natowaveenjoyer9862 What a deranged comment. You really need mental help. You think Curtis Lemay "singing Baby Shark" is funny or appropriate? I hope you get some mental therapy.
I have opposed post-birth abortion all of my life. And I am NOT going to discuss that very personal and non-sequitur subject with you any further on this forum. 'Bye. Blocked.
4:48 nah, this is wild