How to Choose a Prosumer Espresso Machine: Dual Boiler or Heat Exchange
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- Опубликовано: 27 ноя 2018
- Review of basic functions and parts of heat exchange and dual boiler espresso machines. Learn how to choose the right espresso machine. Marc from Whole Latte Love covers items like: PID temperature control, E61 groups, thermo-siphon, advantages of different boiler types and more. Plus, get insider information like: which machines have best in class steaming performance, the best value in a dual boiler, which machines can do line pressure pre-infusion and why some users prefer vibration of rotary pumps.
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Just ordered an Expobar Office Lever, shipped yesterday. Can’t wait to get it. In the future I plan on upgrading to a plumbable dual boiler machine, this will do for now though. I’ve gotten a couple calls from you guys about my order, and I must say the customer service so far is outstanding. 👍🏻
Hi David, Thanks for the comment! Let us know how it goes with the new machine! Also, you might want to bookmark our support wiki for the Expobar Office Lever: wiki.wholelattelove.com/Expobar_Office_Lever/diagrams_and_manuals
All kind of info and videos there including manuals and diagrams, usage tips, etc.
Marc
i know im asking the wrong place but does someone know of a tool to log back into an Instagram account..?
I stupidly forgot my password. I would love any help you can give me
@Winston Huxley instablaster :)
@Kaden Cairo thanks so much for your reply. I got to the site through google and I'm waiting for the hacking stuff now.
Seems to take a while so I will get back to you later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
@Kaden Cairo it did the trick and I finally got access to my account again. I'm so happy:D
Thank you so much you saved my ass !
Highly recommend you do an updated version of this specific topic using today’s espresso machines as references. Perfect video for me while gaining knowledge for a purchase. E61, Hx, PID, Flow Control, Rotary, smallest form factor……..cmc
Hi c, Thanks for the comment/request! Think you'll find this video useful:
Best Dual Boiler Home Espresso Machines of 2023: ruclips.net/video/5W0yfsrVE5U/видео.html
Marc
Your videos are excellent. Always clear, concise, and highly informative.
Hi DC, Thanks for taking the time to comment - it's appreciated!
Marc
Mark, really, REALLY nice videos. I can tell you guys are all about quality from start to finish.
Hi UA, Thanks a whole latte for the comment. We do care!
Marc
I have been watching these videos since I bought a broken Breville machine...and now I am deep in this rabbit hole of machines..which started out as a DIY repair for it...Now I am like...I got screwed on ebay...but that could be my last mistake. Now learning about single boiler, heat exchange, dual boiler, PID, lever action has been an education..Now I am like that money I was using for a laptop hmmmm may be better spent on a new shiny espresso machine. With this Breville my ambition was just too low...LOL
Hi x, Thanks for the comment. I consider Breville to be an appliance grade product. They are a lot more difficult to work on than true prosumer level espresso machines. The appliance grade products have nowhere near the build quality or serviceability of machines from traditional manufacturers in Italy.
Marc
It takes some money and time to be skilled at making espressos. Breville is amazing for entry level, cannot find any difference between my espressos and the ones I buy at my favorite coffee shop. After 12 years my Breville is starting to show signs of age. Thus, it is time to get a better machine. Thank you for this video!
insanely high quality content. fantastic job
Hi mau, Thanks for the kind comment!
Marc
Simply wonderful.
Another information packed episode.
Hi Anna, Thanks for the comment - happy you enjoyed!
Marc
Very informative as always. Thank you for your videos!
Hi autoexec, You are welcome and thank you for the comment!
Marc
This is a suprisingly good video! It should be added, that Dual Boilers with heated brew groups can also provide preinfusion - like the Bezzera Matrix and Duo i.e., where you can simply set the desired preinfusion time.
NameNaameNameeNaamee Hi, thanks for your comment! Marc
Awesome video yet again. I am starting to look at more advanced machines because whilst my DTP makes a fantastic coffee, it is a pain using a single boiler machine for making multiple shots.
Hi Alex, Thanks for the comment! Single boiler machines can be a pain - brew temperature control takes some skill.
After watching this video i feel that I have a degree in espresso machine .
Hi z, Thanks for the comment! Love it!!!
Marc
Thx for clarifying so many questions
Hi Ardy, You are welcome!
Marc
Man I love that drink. Nice video very informative.
Hi HSR, Thanks for the comment!
Have you guys thought about doing a video of espresso accessories? (Scale, measuring cups, etc) Also maybe you guys could expand into talking about the coffee itself. (different types of beans, what to look for, recommended subscription services, etc). Keep up the good work.
Hi Carlton, Thanks for the comment and request! We have done some in the past - we're at 1,300+ vids and counting! I would like to do some vids on accessories like Acaia Scales, leveler/tamper tools etc and more on coffee. In the meantime here's an oldie but goody on how growing altitude affects coffee flavors: ruclips.net/video/jfAD0dbw6Pg/видео.html
Marc
Couple of best way to learn coffe stuffs: james hoffman video,seatle coffee gear,and ofcourse arthur fleck. Best!
Hi Linda, Well I don't have a crazy laugh so... can I just be Marc?
Marc
Just rude.
This video, in the first 15 seconds describe my life!
Hi JS, Thanks for the comment!
Marc
Best voice of youtube, its you! Mark!
Hey w, Well thanks! It's had some years of practice. Glad you think so.
Marc
Great video, thanks.
Hi Harvey, You are welcome and thank a whole latte for the comment!
Marc
Awesome vídeo. Thanks a Lot!
Hi FC, You are welcome and thanks a whole latte for the comment!
Marc
Awesome review, like always! In prosumer level espresso machines we usually think of DB & HX. I wonder if we can take into account E61 single boiler machines with PID like Bezzera Unica or ECM Classika? Are those machines really better than entry level single boilers like Gaggia Classic and Silvia and worth of higher price - for pure espresso lovers? Do they deserve to be considered as prosumer as well as HX and DB? It's hard to find some comparisons between entry level SBDU and E61 SBDU. Greetings!
I love your guys channel. I’m sure it’s been asked before. But, what are your thoughts on the ECM synchronika vs the rocket r58?
Hi JA, Thanks for the comment and question! I do get asked about Synchronika v. R58. So... R58 is an iconic machine. As Andrew Meo of Rocket told me he set out to design a machine that has a certain "sexyness". He also made the decision to not have a digital display on the face of the machine so it uses the detachable controller. Internally the R58 is a hair more complex. More solenoid valves under the hood than the Synchronika. When programming brew temp on he R58 you use the actual in boiler temp. You cross reference a chart in the R58 manual to get the boiler temp which produces a given brew temp. The majority of machines using PID use an offset value. So you put in the brew temp you want and the offset runs the boiler hotter by the offset value to produce that brew temp. The finish work on both machines is beautiful. A slight edge to the Synchronika however - even the internal seams in the drip tray are polished. Some things the Synchronika has that the R58 does not: Best in class steaming power. Steam boiler can be set to run at ~271F which produces near 2 bar of pressure. On the R58 steam pressure max is ~1.25 bar. Synchronika can do line pressure pre-infusion when plumbed to waterline. R58 has a solenoid valve on the plumb connection which only opens when the pump turns on. With the Synchronika always open to line pressure when plumbed use of a pressure regulator is recommended. If you ever want to do line pressure pre-infusion you can use an adjustable regulator to change the pre-infusion pressure. Synchronika is by far the easiest machine to open up. In 30 seconds or so you can have the side and back panels off the machine. Hope that helps!
Marc
Great video!! I currently have a rancilio silvia which has served me well for 7+ years. However, I'm getting a little tired of temp surfing and cycling for brewing /steaming. We are gearing up to buy an upgrade. In my sights are the expobar Brutus and ecm technika v. You can't argue with the value of the first option, but I really like the lever style controls. Is it with the extra $$$ though. Thanks in advance, Andrew from Australia.
Hi SB, Thanks for the comment and question. Now doubt the Brewtus is a great value! I'd be surprised if you found it called the Brewtus in AU. It's a name we gave the machine here is US and I do not believe Expobar uses the name elsewhere - it's likely called a dual boiler leva (lever) machine in other markets. While the Expobar machines are great values and built like tanks the ECM machines are refined with more detail in the finishing. They are built very well and are incredibly reliable.
Marc
Thanks for the nice video Mark. Can you tell me, is there a different between a steel boiler or copper boiler?
Hi jv, Thanks for the comment and question. At the end of the day...not much except one is made of stainless steel and the other of copper - often with brass end plates. Sorry couldn't help myself! All kidding aside, The majority of manufacturers have gone to stainless steel. Copper conducts heat better than stainless but copper boilers generally have thinner metal so thermal mass of a similar volume stainless boiler may be greater. copper boilers may require more manual labor to build. Putting a fitting into copper often requires soldering a fitting or mounting it through a thicker brass end plate. Stainless is thick and rigid enough to drill and tap. Now, there will be those who insist one material is better than the other. So long as a machine delivers consistent temperatures that's what matters. IMO other design elements and components play a much bigger role than boiler material.
Marc
Great video, awesome channel! What can you recommend for light commercial use espresso machine (i personally like double boiler option but the price is about double). In the beverage menu basically should have espresso & lungo but would also be nice to serve cortado & machiato as well. Big fan of ECM, beautiful machines.
Hi Chuck, Thanks for the question. If you like ECM (I do too!) but don't want to go to more expensive dual boiler have a look at the ECM Mechanika Slim: www.wholelattelove.com/products/ecm-mechanika-v-slim-espresso-machine-with-flow-control It's available with or without flow control. Price wise it's more than 30% below a dual boiler ECM Synchronika. It's not a PID machine but has a huge 2.2 liter boiler in a small package. Be aware it's technically not rated for commercial use. Another option is the Crem ONE HX PID machine: www.wholelattelove.com/products/crem-one-hx-espresso-machine It is rated for commercial service, is PID, plumbable to waterline and has a huge drip tray. Price is below the Mechanika Slim. Not the same classic build quality as ECM but a reliable, easy to use machine for light commercial service.
Marc
I love your videos
Hi Mark, Thanks for your comment!
Marc
Just curious for the future, but will you be doing a review on the Eureka Olympus 75E HS grinder? I have seen it for sale on your store but not a video on it yet!
Hi Ryan, I plan on a video at some point. I have video on the Eureka Atom grinders which are smaller but very similar in general principle to the Olympus. If you have specific question regarding the Olympus I'd be happy to answer. Here's a link to the Atom video: ruclips.net/video/-VihPhmxphc/видео.html
Marc
You missed one of the premier models you carry: The ACS Vesuvius. :-) ...Different pump all together in that class of a machine.
Hi Peter, Thanks for the comment. We will likely be doing a video soon on higher level and niche machines like manual levers and pressure profilers like the Vesuvius, LM GS3 and Rocket R Nine-One.
Marc
Hi Marc, Thanks for the informative video. I have been using a QuickMill Silvano with PID for about 10 yrs. I have replaced the pump, descaled, and other self maintenance items throughout the years. The steam pressure just doesn't cut it anymore. My old Starbucks/Saeco does better.
I would like to upgrade. I make 2 or 3 milk drinks a day. I would like something that looks good to. Just don't know if I will appreciate the difference between a hx and a DB. Also quiet would be nice!
David
Hi David, You are welcome for the video. Good looks are subjective but if you want a super quiet machine with dual boilers, PID, plumbable that's an excellent value you might have a look at the Crem One Infuser. It features an ultra-quiet variable speed DC motor connected to rotary pump. One of the quietest machines I've used. It features programmable gradual soft pre-infusion which ramps up to full pressure brewing in user programmable time ranging from 0 - 30 seconds. Check it out in this video: ruclips.net/video/S88TwFdLfns/видео.html
Marc
Hey Mark - I've been using a LaPavoni for a couple of years. Love it, but I'm considering stepping up to a new machine. Debating between ECM techinica V provi or synchronika. I like the idea of a rotary pump, but not sure if I really need dual boiler or flow control. suggestions?
Hi Dario, Thanks for the question. Personally I'd go with the Synchronika. Aside from boilers the machines are very similar. What dual boiler gets you is higher brew temperature consistency and the Synchronika can operate at higher pressure in the steam boiler for better milk frothing. IMO Flow Control opens up another level of extraction control. It's especially useful when working with high-end fresh from roast specialty coffee - think lighter roasted high altitude single origins. They tend to be very bright. Especially when fresh. A long low flow start to an extraction can help tame the brightness common in those types of coffees. Beyond that one can use flow to simulate extraction on other machine types like manual levers or pressure profiling machines. Can also use to avoid over-extracting darker roast coffee or minimizing stale flavors in less than fresh coffees by starting with a higher flow rate then ramping it down as the extraction progresses. Hope that helps!
Marc
wow now I want to spend a lot of money on a fancy expresso machine ! :-)
Hey, thank you for the great video!
So im about to purchase a machine but im on a budget
my main important thing is the milk, latte art, strong wand stream.
what should i look for? thank you
Hi Liran, For best steaming performance I'd have a look at dual boiler machines like the Profitec Pro 600, Pro 700 or the ECM Synchronika. All of these machines have best in class steaming power with steam boilers running at ~2 bar. However, these dual boiler machines are not what I'd consider in the "budget" category. Next step down in price is a heat-exchange machine. HX machines can brew and steam at the same time. Good options in HX are the Profitec Pro 500 PID, Rocket Apartamento or Bezzera BZ10. Next step down in budget are single boiler machines. These cannot brew and steam at the same time. A standout in steaming power in that class is the Bezzera Hobby 01: www.wholelattelove.com/products/bezzera-hobby-espresso-machine If intersted I have a video comparing 4 premium entry level single boiler machines which includes the Hobby: ruclips.net/video/ajvUwRZ524I/видео.html
Hope that helps!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage hi, I am also looking for a new machine mainly for milk based drinks. I am in Canada so most double boilers are over $3500. I have been looking at the Lelit MaraX for $1900. How would that compare to let's say a Profitec 600 which would be the cheapest double boiler option for me at $3200 excluding the Breville Dual Boiler at $1500 which I am unsure about on the quality side. I am not a pro or crazy experienced, I want to pull a nice shot but really want to focus on great frothing. My grinder is a Specialita.
Thinking about either a Bezzera BZ13 or a Rancilio Silvia Pro. Any opinion on those two?
Hello, very imformative video right here. However just one little question. Which one do you prefer finally ? heat exchanger or dual boiler ? thank you
Hi RJ, thanks for the comment and question. Dual boiler. Current favorite is the ECM Synchronika with flow control.
Marc
Thank you for your quick response ! And what are the coffee machine similar to the syncronika ? R58 v2 ? Profitec pro 700 pid ? Which one would you choose between these two ? And compared to the syncronika regarding esspresso shot quality ? I am about to order on your website but can t decide . Thank you
Hi Mark,
Thanks for this great informative video. I'm planning to upgrade my Breville to an HX prosumer machine and I'm looking for a machine that has no hot water contact with plastic parts. I see the internal parts of some of your videos and I see the hot water tubing is made of copper ( that's good for me). But I'm worried about other parts like the rotary pump, valves and gaskets. Do they have plastic that has contact with hot water?
Hi Ktm, Thanks for the comment and question. In most machines, when plastic is used it's only in non-pressurized cold water supply lines or vents to drip tray from things like a vacuum relief valve. If there's a particular machine you are interested in I can check it for plastic if you like.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thank you Marc. I'm very interested in ECM Synchronika.
So what would you recommend as an upgrade for my failing Gaggia Classic? I know I can probably refurbish the Gaggia to a point. But I'm not sure I want to throw money at it. I've already replaced the pump. Now it needs a new steamwand manifold and I think there's something wrong with the 3-way as well. Temps are pretty inconsistent and steam power is quite lacking. Perhaps due to the leaky manifold but it's never been great.
So anyways...I make 1-3 drinks a day for myself. If my wife wants some then add 1-2 more. So typical day it'll see 2 drinks but can be as many as 4 or 5. I'm not a super geek so I don't need lots of bells and whistles. I just want a solid working machine that gives me some control with consistent results. Don't need plumbed. In fact that's not even an option for me to do. Dual boiler/HX would be wonderful but probably an unnecessary expense. Definitely want a pro-size portafilter.
Hi Chad, Thanks for the question. If you do any milk drinks on regular basis then I'd consider a machine with HX boiler. Being able to brew and steam simultaneously makes milk drinks so much faster! If accurate brew temps are important to you more recent HX machines with PID are excellent and a big change from older HX machines without PID which usually require a cooling flush prior to brewing to dump over-heated brew water. In HX machines with PID my favorite is the Profitec Pro 500 with Flow Control: www.wholelattelove.com/products/profitec-pro-500-pid-espresso-machine-with-flow-control If you happen to brew with very fresh from roast specialty coffees flow control allows you to do long low flow pre-infusions which make a big difference. The Pro 500 is available without flow at lower price as well. If brewing and steaming at the same time are not important to you but accurate brew temps and build quality are you should consider the ECM Classika single boiler with PID. It's IMO the best single boiler machine available: www.wholelattelove.com/products/ecm-classika-pid-espresso-machine-with-flow-control It's available with and without flow control as well. Hope that helps! If you need more assistance picking a machine to best fit your needs you can speak directly with our coffee pros at 585-924-7170
Marc
I'm a coffee geek looking for a prosumer dual broil with PID temp. I love making Pumpkim Spice Lattes. Have any recommendations?
Hi LB, Here are some dual boiler options...
See the links for more info, videos of each machine, specs, reviews, current pric, etc
Best Values non E61 group, non-plumbable, vibration pump:
Rancilio Silvia Pro: www.wholelattelove.com/products/rancilio-silvia-pro-espresso-machine
Profitec Pro 300: www.wholelattelove.com/products/profitec-pro-300-dual-boiler-espresso-machine
Best Value E61 group, best in class steaming power, non-plumbable, vibration pump
Profitec Pro 600: www.wholelattelove.com/products/profitec-pro-600-dual-boiler-espresso-machine
High-end, E61 group, best in class steaming power, plumbable, rotary pump
Profitec Pro 700: www.wholelattelove.com/products/profitec-pro-700-dual-boiler-espresso-machine
Ultra-lux, E61 group, best in class steaming power, plumbable, rotary pump
ECM Synchronika w/flow control: www.wholelattelove.com/products/ecm-synchronika-dual-boiler-with-flow-control
The Pro 600 and Pro 700 are also available w/flow control.
Hope that helps!
Marc
Is the Mozzafiato V a good choice for me?
I’m on a budget but like a PID and an E61 with a 3-way s valve.
Hi R, Could be? Depends on what's important to you. There are other PID, E61 machines which cost less. For example if you're more about espresso and only do milk drinks occasionally the ECM Classic is a single boiler PID machine with E61: www.wholelattelove.com/products/ecm-classika-pid-espresso-machine-with-flow-control
Marc
Santa is gonna be nice to me this yr!!!!!!!!
Hi D, What's on your list?
Marc
hey Marc I love you your videos they are really instructive so , thank you so much. I need your help to make a decision , I bought a Breville bes870 almost 6 years ago and still working perfectly fine but I want to go to the next step and my budget is $ 2,000 , I love the Rocket design so , what could be your recommendation ? It have to be with water connection line ,thank you so much
Hi jorge, Thanks for the comment and question. To get into a Rocket machine with waterline connection lowest cost option is the Evo R Giotto that's about $500 over your budget: www.wholelattelove.com/collections/semi-automatic-espresso-machines/products/rocket-espresso-giotto-evoluzione-r It's a PID machine with rotary pump and heat-exchange boiler.
We do have a few Expobar Brewtus IV-R that are just within your budget. These are dual boiler PID machines with rotary pump and plumbable only - no reservoir. They do not have the Rocket flair but make excellent espresso: www.wholelattelove.com/collections/semi-automatic-espresso-machines/products/expobar-brewtus-iv-r-with-rotary-pump
Hope that helps!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage well im going to wait a little bit becouse I really want the Rocket, so thank you very much for the info . I'm really appreciate.
My pleasure!
Do you have a link explaining saturated grouphead versus e61?
good info! Do I understand correctly that for HX mc with PID we do not need to do cooling flush before brewing espresso ? ........... The main reason I chose rotary pump (although it cause the mc cost more ) is the durability compared to vibration pump.
Hi Ko, Thanks for the comment! On the HX machines with PID in this video: Profitec Pro 500 PID, Rocket Evo R and Type V Mozzafiatto/Giotto cooling flushes are not required based on our Scace testing. Rotary pumps are more durable (and have a more pleasing sound) than vibration pumps. Some users report liking the slower ramp up to brew pressure you get with a vibration pump. I'm not sure it makes enough of a difference for me to pick vib over rotary.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage thanks Marc! always appreciate your informative videos!
Hi Marc, I really enjoy your videos. I'm looking a semi automatic espresso dual boiler machine like Breville Oracle Touch. I like it so much because it stamps the ground bean automatically. I only drink decaf coffee and it will be used for 1 or 2 cups a day, would you recommend me a similar like this Breville Oracle Touch with a budget of $1000 please.
I wish the machine would have these functions:
- works with whole bean and ground bean
-semi automatic with stamping function
-has the milk brother
If it doesn't exist with the price, would you recommend me a new model (2018, 2019) of fully automatic espresso machine please?
Thank you Marc.
Hi Marc, I watched your video about Gaggia Velasca Automatic Coffee And Espresso Machine : ruclips.net/video/fpooUc1j9Gs/видео.html. I think I will buy one of these. Thank you.
Hi Mark. What would you recommend between the rancilio pro x vs profitec 400 for someone who is a milk based drinker with little waiting time?
Hey NQ, thanks for the question. The Pro X is a dual boiler and its brew boiler being smaller heats more quickly. Aesthetically, I prefer the Pro 400 and it has features like flow control available if you work with specialty coffee.
Marc
wonder if you could do a video about safety of the machines, I have heard some of these E61 types or the Bezzera machines get terribly hot where you cant even touch the group head, or near the joysticks for steaming . which makes them harder to use, if you touch them they will absolutely burn you! so if thats the case, that really might turn off a lot of buyers and especially for older people, or teenagers, or novices perhaps they would be better suited for machines like breville, gaggia, or the rancilio which dont get hot and wont burn you...
any thoughts on this?
Hi Chris, Thanks for the comment. One does need to use care when operating these machines. Even machines without E61 groups have hot parts. All of them, including the B, G, and R you mention produce steam and hot water. Those not qualified to operate a stove or oven safely should not use semi-automatic espresso machines.
Marc
Question! At 5:30 you show Rocket's Mozzafiato Evo R with a PID in Fahrenheit. I bought mine and it's in Celsius. Is there any way to change this? Wouldn't temperature be more precise and accurate in fahrenheit as opposed to celcius?
Can't say for this exact model but all PIDs made for worldwide market have a key sequence to switch between F and C.
Is there a reason you no longer sell the Expobar Brewtus 4? Would be nice to purchase a machine with PID, HX or Dual Boiling, and rotary pump all at that low price point!
Hi sa, Thanks for the question. Expobar's parent companies have decided to no longer bring non-NSF rated into the US market. Look for some new machines under the Crem brand which are NSF rated coming in a few weeks!
Marc
Hey Marc, that is another awesome video! Thanks!
My question is similar to Xantulle`s below, I'm trying to decide between a good HX, or entry level DB.. Profitec Pro 500 PID (2nd ECM Mech Slim *no PID) or Profitec Pro 600 (2nd Brewtus *loses on engineering, details, maintenance) .
I will brew 2 double cappuccino at morning and 2 double espresso after lunch... and maybe some guests at the weekend.
As the investment will be high and I don`t want to go for upgrades, this combo will have to last for long... decades if you will lol ! I would like the machine to have good quality component, robust, easy maintenance, good quality/price ratio and capable of consistent good results... I`m not considering plumbing, Im fine with reservoir.
Any advice on those options? Specially Pro500 vs Pro600? Advantages and disadvantages of each... is the extra $$$ worth for the 600? Is it more capable of consistent good shots?
Thanks a lot!
Forgot to mention... will pair it with Ceado E37J or E6P, not sure which to go for. How is the retention of those? I just found the retention data of E37J. THanks!
Hi Victor, Thanks for the question details on usage and what's important to you - really helps! For decades of service Profitec/ECM machines are IMO the right choice. Feed them with good quality water with proper mineral level and you're good to go. What the dual boiler 600 gets you is easier adjustment of brew temps and better control of steam temp/pressure with the independent boilers. On the HX 500 brew temp depends on the temp of a single boiler and how that heat transfers to the HX section for brewing. The 500 provides accurate brew temps but it takes longer to adjust and settle into a new temp. Also you use a chart to set temp of the boiler to get a desired brew temp on the 500. Many users appreciate the visible PID control of the 600 which has an automatic shot timer. Plus additional functions like back flush reminder and an eco mode which automatically shuts down the boiler heating after user specified time. Shot timer and those additional features are not on the 500. 600 has more steam power than the 500. It goes to ~2 bar while the 500 goes to ~1.5 bar. HX machines are user descaleable while DB machines generally are not. However if you use good water you can eliminate the need to descale either machine. For reservoir fed machines we recommend either BWT Bestsave pad filters: www.wholelattelove.com/products/bwt-bestsave-m-anti-scale-filter or the BWT Penguin Pitcher: www.wholelattelove.com/products/bwt-penguin-2-7-l-water-pitcher Either of these BWT products provide Specialty Coffee Association spec water which prevents scale when used properly.
Grinders:
Both the E37J and E6P use 64mm burrs and produce a similar grind quality. Difference comes in ease of use. E37J has digital display showing grind time. E6P has no display so adjusting timing is a little harder. You push the buttons to add or subtract grind time in 1/10 second increments with no display of actual grind time. With the J one does not lose grind setting when removing the top burr plate. The E6P has a more standard setup with a threaded collar that turns out to access the grinding chamber. Turn that out and you lose the grind setting. Hope that helps.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Hi Marc! Thank you very much for your time! Could you elaborate a little more about "user descaleable"? How is the procedure to descale on a 500 and on a 600? I really would like to do the maintenance by myself.
Another question, (as reference) how long does it takes to need to descale a machine using tap water vs using BWT pads?
Thanks!
Synchronika, plumbed. No naked filter to confirm, but I am getting thicker pours w/ more crema preinfusing with the single basket. I suspect full pump pressure is punishing the thin single dose too much and causing channeling.
Hi Simon, Thanks for the comment. Singles are tricky, finicky, PITA. I know it may be different in other parts of the world (Italy?) where espresso is more of a commodity but here in the US I don't know anyone in specialty coffee, cafes or homes pulling singles on a regular basis. I asked in a video awhile ago for preference on single v. bottomless PF being included with a new machine. Had over 1,100 votes. The results were overwhelming: ruclips.net/video/BIsNpBNi8DU/видео.html
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Always been a double person too, but I have 5-6 a day (going through 2 pounds of coffee a week just myself) . I thought I'd revisit the single after just receiving a Sync with line pressure preinfusion (just retired a 20 year old BZ99 I'd put on a rotary pump, so not even vibe pump ramp up - I could never get singles consistently right). So far I'm happy enough with the singles, although only had the Sync 3 days now and lots of exploring to do.
Here in Australia, a lot of couples get machines for their cosmetic appeal in the kitchen and don't really dig deep into the hobby. They'll routinely split a double rather than pouring two doubles, so I guess they'd do singles just for themselves too. Thanks for the link - I'll add a comment.
Hi, what is better for the the taste of the coffee, a vibration pump adjustable from outside or a rotary pump with its 9 bar for brewing ? I´ve heard 8 bars for brewing can be better...thanks.
Hi NP, In my experience flow rate of brew water is more important than a specific pressure but there are many variables involved. Some coffees do better at higher flow rates and pressure. Some do better at lower flows/pressures. An initial lower flow rate and gradual pressure build (vibration pump) pushes one toward a finer grind size that may produce better subjective results for a particular coffee. Rotary pumps with faster initial pressure and higher flow rate may push towards a slightly coarser grind which often works well with darker roast traditional espresso bean blends. Equipping machines with either pump type with a flow control device (available on E61 group machines) gives one the flexibility to mimic either pump type. Rotary pumps have a naturally higher flow rate so have more headroom when using higher flow rates under flow control.
Marc
Thank you very much !
Hey Marc, me again, narrowed things down to a couple candidates. Pro 300, Crem One HX PID, Bezz BZ13 DE, Bezz Magica PID and finally the Pro 500 (although that is more than I want to spend) any insight? I am moving from a nice but single thermoblock machine.
Hi Jeff, Any of those machines are a big step up from a single boiler thermoblock machine! If you like pushing a button and the extraction stops on its own the BZ13 DE is the way to go. It's a good value and heats up quickly due to the electric heating of the BZ group. The Pro 300 is a dual boiler so you'll have tighter control of brew temps. It warms quickly with the brew boiler over the group head. With smaller boilers, not a great choice for serving more than in 3-4 people in quick succession. Crem One HX is an excellent value. A more modern design of a classic machine. I like the huge drip tray, shot mirror and display which is angled up for easy viewing. The Pro 500 is a premium level HX boiler PID machine. It features excellent finishing detail, reliable K.I.S.S. engineering inside the case and the E61 group can be equipped with flow control for next level extractions of specialty coffees and more.
Hope that helps!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage For the Crem, what does the modern design of a classic machine mean? I do like the fact that Bezzera makes their own parts.
Do you ever have used machines? I have been using my Rancilio Silvia for about ten years and I would like to move up a bit to a heat exchanger . I can't afford a dual boiler.
Hi Ken, Thanks for the question. You can find some here: www.wholelattelove.com/collections/outlet
Just put up a video on the Bezzera BZ13 yesterday. It's an HX machine w/PID and IMO one of the best values in HX boiler machines. Watch the video here: ruclips.net/video/afQSBLNTveI/видео.html Its new price is better than some of the HX refurbs currently available with a lot more to offer.
Marc
Which machines have the extra rounded corners and which machines have the highest quality internal components please?
Hi b, Thanks for the questions. Profitec and ECM machines have excellent internal components and use ultra-reliable K.I.S.S. design. For machines with rounded corners and high quality external finishing have a look at the Profitec Pro 700: www.wholelattelove.com/products/profitec-pro-700-dual-boiler-with-flow-control
And the ECM Synchronika: www.wholelattelove.com/products/ecm-synchronika-dual-boiler-with-flow-control
Those 2 are identical internally with the difference being external finishing.
Marc
Do you sell pressure regulators for ECM Synchronika? What are good pressure regulators? I am thinking of connecting plumb to a 5 gallon jug of water.
Hi T72R, Thanks for the question. We do sell pressure regulators which will work for just about any plumbed in espresso machine. They reduce line pressure from household plumbing. I'll admit I'm not quite clear on what you are going to do with the 5 gallon jug. If you mean you want the jug as the water source you do not need a pressure regulator. So long as your water jug is near the same vertical level as the machine the rotary pump of your machine has the power to suck in the water from the plumbed line. We do it all the time. No need to pressurize the water to the plumbed in connection. Here's a link to BWT pressure regulator: www.wholelattelove.com/bwt-inline-pressure-reduce-m-3-8-x-f-3-8-2-8-bar
Marc
Thank you Mark for your input and greatly appreciated. What I am trying to set up is very much what you just said. A 5-gallon jug of Glacier water connected to the Plumb line of the ECM synchronika. I have seen on RUclips people connecting a flojet to push 30 psi to avoid the pump from being damaged but those demonstrations are over 5 years old. The new ECM synchronika is relatively current if I bought it brand new. Sometimes I wonder with my thinking of covering all the bases then I am doing an overkill on Care for the investment.
Do you ship each machine with a uniqe calibration sheet? Temperature etc.
Hi David, Machines do go through a bench test before shipping. They are checked for scratches, brought to operating temp and checked for leaks, gauge operation, water flow, boiler pressures, etc. We do not include a calibration sheet.
Hope that helps!
Marc
Hi Mark, just a quick question, does steam on dual boiler dryer than HX machines? Thanks!
Hi there, Not that I’m aware of. But you might be able to steam faster on a machine with higher initial steam pressure and introduce less water. Higher pressure is easier to come by on DB machines as the boiler can run at higher temps than on HX where boiler temp affects brew temp. Insulted “no burn” wands have less internal condensation and you’ll find those on most machines now.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thanks for your super fast reply!!!
Even if you prefer controlling temp with a cooling flush, could you not just set your pid higher?
Yes you could!
Is there a minimum pressure for plumbed machines? I am interested in the Profitec Pro 700 because of the line pressure preinfusion, but I plan to plum from my RO water system. The reservior is pressurized but only to about 10 psi.
Hey M, Thanks for the question. Profitec specifies a maximum input line pressure of 2 bar which is ~30psi. I believe 10psi (~0.6 bar) is sufficient to feed the machine. Understand that your line pressure pre-infusion will be limited to the pressure provided by your RO systems output pressure. If planning on using water from RO system be certain the water is remineralized! If your RO system outputs mineral free zero TDS water that will be a problem. Mineral free water will over-extract espresso and over time can cause corrosion of metal components in the machine. Many RO systems have a bypass which feeds some untreated water back into the treated water to increase mineral content. If you have that you should be all set. If you do not remineralization filters like this one are available: www.wholelattelove.com/products/bwt-bestmin-premium-m-filter-cartridge
Hope that helps!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Great info thank you! I do have remineralization on the system (iSpring, cant remember the model of the top of my head). It makes great pour over over.
As a Rochester native, I can’t wait to order my machine from you guys. Just need to decide on a grinder now!
I recently comes across CREM espresso machine. I think it's also known as Expobar. They market their machine being capable of profiling it's brew. Care to share if it really helps in the extraction and producing a good cup of espresso..?
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Hi TL, We will have some videos coming soon on new Crem machines. Yes Crem made Expobar machines. Profiling for sure helps! Not for everyone as it get's tothe geekier side of high-end espresso but can make a huge difference. I did a whole series of videos on flow profiling a few months ago. One example where it makes a big difference is with very fresh from roast single origin high-altitude coffees. Those tend to be very bright, but use a long low flow pre-infusion and one can tame that brightness!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage that is good to know. waiting for the videos.
Hi Marc, I'm still trying to decide between a good HX, or entry level DB.. probably Profitec Pro 500 or Expobar Brewtus. I make mainly double espresso's, 1 each morning and occasionally cappuccinos for my girlfriend or guests. The thing that worries me with both machines is this: I'm not really liking the cooling flush guesswork with HX machines, I like to get consistent results... and the Brewtus is very consistent temperature, and plumbable is a big bonus, however, with 1 or maybe 2 coffees a day, will I be drinking old/stale boiler water every day? Bonus of HX is fresh water from the water tank each brew, nicer finish (and shorter warmup time?).
Kinda stuck there, any advice for an espresso lover? :) (Currently own a Silvia, but want to upgrade to a prosumer E61)
Hi X, Thanks for the questions. As the Pro 500 is now PID no need for a cooling flush - very accurate brew temps without flushing. You will appreciate a plumbable machine like the Brewtus if you go that way. Personally I don't think water goes stale or is affected all that much by residing in boiler. Maybe a different story in an older neglected machine with scale buildup.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thanks Marc for the reply! Saw your review video on the Pro 500. Good to know that the temperatures are very accurate without flushing due to the PID, well done Profitec! In the end I think a double boiler would still suit me better to be able to easily change the exact brew temperature for different roasts. Will decide between an Expobar (heard rumors they have something new coming up soon?) or save a little bit longer and go for the Pro 600, which looks amazing and ticks all boxes, except for not being able to plumb it.
Hi X, You are welcome! Most of the newer HX machines with PID are very temp accurate. I've had the same accuracy with Rocket Type V and Evo R machines...the newer Giottos and Mozzafiattos. Manufacturers are always working on new models and upgrades. I have no release date info on new Expobar. If something is coming it's still some months out :(.
Marc
Hi Marc, hope you can help. I have a budget for a new machine is around $1700- 2000 as already have a grinder. What do you recommend? I am looking for best quality coffee in my budget as close to cafe style (i am award of importance of beans grinder and Barrista skills) I will be having mostly milk based drinks maybe 1-3 a day. Ideally with PID unless you think it’s not required on a particular machine. I have looked at P P500, Bezzera BZ13 and Magica also Rocket Apartamento. Any others? Thanks
Hi Viks, Thanks for the question. If you can swing the Pro 500 it's the cream of the crop in that range with best build quality. Compared to the Appartamento you will not need to do a cooling flush prior to espresso extractions due to PID and design of thermosiphon system which prevents overheated brew water. At lower end of your price range have a look at the Profitec Pro 300. it's a quick heating dual boiler PID perfect for 1-3 milk drinks per day. Not as pretty IMO as the Pro 500 and no E61 group but a nice machine for the $$: www.wholelattelove.com/products/profitec-pro-300-dual-boiler-espresso-machine
Hope that helps!
Marc
Marc, In one of your other videos, you talked about the importance of a cooling flush for heat exchange machines. You mentioned that you might have some recommendations for particular machines about how long that flush should be. I am a couple of weeks in on the Expobar Office Control I purchased from you guys. My shots are improving, but I am curious if you had any recommendations specific to that machine. Sorry if I am posting this in the wrong forum. Thanks in advance. I am loving these videos. - Marty
Hi Marty, Great to hear from you and thanks for the comment and question. Best thing to do is flush without portafilter in place until the water flow from the group is smooth with no evidence of flash boiling like lots of bubbles coming from shower screen. This should take ~3-7 seconds depending on things like how long the machine has been idle and where it is in its temperature cycle. Once you have smooth flow you know you are below boiling point. From smooth flow I'd flush another 3 seconds and you'll likely be close to 200F. Be ready to pull the shot right after the flush. Based on taste you can adjust your flush timing. Bitter flavors indicate high brew temp, sour indicates low. Of course many other variables involved but when all is consistent shot to shot changing brew temp by flush timing should produce a taste-able difference. Hope that helps!
Marc
How about acs minima that has dual boiler with brew boiler 0.8L, is that enough to use for light commercial? Is that good and consistent for brewing many coffee in a row?
Help me to answer mark ❤
Hi BD, I have no experience with the machine. Given it's very low price compared to similar machines I wonder about quality of components long term. While this type of machine can produce back to back espresso I imagine the group will overheat with constant use leading to ever increasing brew temps. Even for light commercial I'd recommend at minimum a rotary pump plumbable machine.
Marc
How about compare to nuova simonelli oscar ii for light commercial sir?
The Rocket Espresso Giotto Evoluzione R runs a little over $2500. The Miele machine I have been looking at runs something like $2400. I was drawn to the Meile solely because of its simplicity and ease of use. Am I missing anything by going with a fully automatic machine?
You're baasically missing the whole experience, better drinks, and a LOT more
John Salazar yes your definitely missing out especially on good coffe
It depends how much effort you're willing to put in. If you choose to invest no effort into dialing in quality shots, then go with a superautomatic. The Rocket will give you better shots, but you have to work more for them. The superautomatic will give a good shot; the Rocket will give you the best possible shot.
@@5gcoffeecroissantbaker Nowadays we are always busy and running around. This may sound bad but I don't want another hobby nor do I want a learning curve of any sort. I want to put beans in and push a button and get my cappuccino or whatever drink I choose without hassles. I guess I need to find someone local here in Chicago that sells these so that I can go to the store and play with them, but the levers and gauges and all that are really a turn off for me. And you are probably right with time and practice one of these machines would probably make a better tasting drink but I just really don't want to work for it if that makes sense.
@@thebigdoghimself I think it's definitely a good idea to check one out in person. Superautomatics can be a bit finnicky when it comes to what beans you're using. You end up with some extra effort on the cleanup end (in my opinion, obviously) because they automatically store the coffee pucks, and you have to dispose of it later. Really the effort is in remembering to trash the coffee because it can get moldy or develop mildew if it sits for too long.
Are any of these industrial for coffee shops?
Hey d, Depends on coffee shop volume. Most prosumer machines are intended for domestic/home use but there are a few with commercial use NSF ratings. Check Bezzera machines like this one which is commercial rated and could be used in low volume commercial applications: www.wholelattelove.com/products/bezzera-bz13-de
If a heat exchanger runs dry, will it damage the heating components?
Hi Zac, Thanks for the question. Always a risk of damaging the heating elements if a boiler runs dry.
Marc
Hello! Love to see your videos.
I have a question. About HX machines like Appartamento some people say that you really cant brew and steam at the same time as this causes a bypassing of the pressure so what you have in the end is less pressure in your brewing and steaming power. So what does really happening?
TheFitnessProject Hi, very bluntly, those some people are dead wrong. Pressure for brewing is supplied by a pump which is isolated during brewing from the separate section of the boiler which produces steam. Many commercial machines in cafes use a heat exchange setup and brew and steam simultaneously on multiple groups and steam wands. For prosumer level machines HX is very common I guarantee you can brew and steam simultaneously without issue.
Marc
Hello Marc been watching your videos intensely all month my question is i own and operate a CBD Store we are expanding to add a coffee shop within the store my question is which of your machine would be adequate for a small coffee shop to start with thank you, and thank you for your informational videos.
Hi m, Thanks for the comment and question. You are on trend with CBD+Coffee. The machines in this video are not intended for commercial use. Machines for commercial use are typically rated by the number of coffees they can produce per hour/day. Best value in a commercial rated machine for low volume use is the Gaggia TS: www.wholelattelove.com/gaggia-ts-espresso-machine It runs ~$2K. We loan the TS out to local shops and organizations for use at latte art throwdowns. If you'd like some one on one advice for setting up coffee for your store contact our commercial specialist: www.wholelattelove.com/contact-us
Marc
Hi there
I currently have a rancillo silvia. I was told 220 volt espresso machines are cheaper. Is this true? I'm considering running a 220 volt circuit to my kitchen and upgrading my machine. Any advice would be appreciated. Thank u
Hi Glenn, Thanks for the question. I do not know where you are located but if in US I think it will be difficult to find a 220 Silvia. I'm not familiar with any pricing differences from manufacturers. In US you will not find 220 machines until you get to commercial cafe equipment.
Marc
Thank u
I love your videos. I'm considering a smeg espresso machine. It's 220 volt and u can order online. It's about $500. Any thoughts
It'll cost me about $300 TO run a new 220 circuit into my kitchen. Do u have any thoughts on European 220 home espresso makers like the smeg unit
I know they don't sell in the states. But there available online
I'm local in Renton wa
yeah but how does it affect the coffee?
Hi p, Thanks for the question. No real difference in potential espresso quality based on boiler type. It's more about how it is used. In general dual boiler machines provide more consistent brew temperature and brew temperature is not affected by steaming as may be the case in machines with heat-exchange boilers. With proper user technique HX machines provide consistent brew temps.
Marc
The brewing water should have a temperature of around 93 degrees Celsius (200 Fahrenheit), the water in the steam boiler is heated up to 130C (265 Fahrenheit). The problem with HX machines with a thermosiphon is that the brewing water is heated up by flowing constantly in the HX through the steam boiler. When the machine is out of use for some time the brewing water must overheat, up to boiling 100C (252F?) because the cooling of the E61 is not enough. (This system was invented in 1961 year of an Eclipse for machines used in cafes with constant use.)
Marc, I don't understand why a PID controlled temperature in the steam boiler should solve that problem. The reason for this problem lies in the thermosiphon/E61 system not in the higher hysterese with the pressurestat.
PID isn't solving issues of thermosiphon, I agree. PID and fast reacting sensor help to narrow temp swing in a boiler, but without sensor in a brewhead and additional code in control unit it again goes down to how well design matches assumed usage pattern - again, like your assumption.
Hi Tim, As 1 eq... mentioned PID (significantly)narrows the temp swing in the boiler. One key component helping this new crop of PID HX machines produce the proper brew temp is a flow restrictor in the thermosiphon loop to the E61 group. There's more to it of course like size and position of the HX section within the boiler and more. But the sizing of the hole in the flow restrictor (it's a stupid simple part) makes a huge difference in how fast water moves out to the group and back. After years of using pressurestat controlled HX machines I was stunned when using these new PID HX machines. Could not believe they could produce accurate brew temps like this but they did. I'm guessing they could have some variations based on usage patterns but I have yet to run into it like I did on pressurstat machines.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Really interesting. Can you make a video in which you pull shots constantly from a machine for some time, measure the brew temperature, let the machine sit for an hour and measure again? Maybe on both types of machines, PID and pressurestat? If that would show fairly good results I would be really stunned. Then my next machine must not be a dual boiler anymore..
Hey, thanks for the video. I don't quite agree, how you explainend why PID controlled HX machines are more temperature stable then pressurestat machines. Actually, most of them are, but not because of the PID. Newer HX machines have a better design of the thermosiphon (restrictors) and mixture in the HX (inlet outlet tube length) and that's why they don't overheat anymore. The colder HX doesn't care much, if it gets heated up by constant 122°C or wavering 121-124°C. The mass in the HX, the thermosiphon and the brew group is so inert, that it is smoothing that fluctuation totally. If you measure brew group temperature there is no periodic fluctuation at all on a pressurestat machine. So yes, modern HX PID controlled machines are very temperature stable, but not because of the PID but because of the better design compared to their precursors with pressurestats.
Hi Max, Thanks for the comment! Don't think I gave complete credit to the PID for controlling overheating. Mentioned the engineering as well. Thanks for adding the detail - I generally don't go to far beyond discussing proper flow rerstrictor sizing. Design is likely getting better in non-PID HX machines and agree pressurestat temp fluctuations don't have a huge impact on group surface temps. Inside boiler temps may be a different story.
Hello,
does the quality of the espresso improves when the brew pressure exceeds the 10 bars? If yes, how far can we go? If the Nespresso machine brews at a pressure of 19 bars, does it deliver a better Espresso quality than the standard machines?
Hi Anes, Great question! Quick answer is no. The 19 bar claim is about marketing - more is always better right? Not with espresso and pressure! This is similar to cheap entry-level home espresso appliances which market 14 bar of pressure. So maybe they have a pump capable of making 14 bar but you do not want to brew espresso at that pressure! If it were better at higher pressure all the high-end cafes would be doing it and they are most definitely not.
Marc
Do u have link for lelit mara x v2
www.wholelattelove.com/products/lelit-mara-x-heat-exchanger-espresso-machine-matte-white
I am currently using delonghi espresso machine.
Is this machine a lot better?
Also I heard this machine will have overheat issue, you could advise should I set to brew mode or steam mode?
Nice video, but, why fahrenheit? :(
Hey SA, Well, we're based in US and have not joined the rest of the world. But I'll just mention Fahrenheit has more than 2x the resolution of Celsius. In most of our recent videos we do include Celsius temps alongside Fahrenheit.
Marc
Hopefully u can ship overseas
Hi aa, Unfortunately we don not :(
Marc
am i only one that want small, cheap, double thermalblock (ideally heat exchanger),pid, manometer, temperature stable brew head, isolated steam wand, digital menu, integrated timer, automatic descale, programming extraction time, preinfusion time,etc..? something that lookslike its made in 2018 and not 90' -_-
Hi Pepo, Thanks for the comment. Sounds like you'd like the Breville Oracle Touch: www.wholelattelove.com/breville-bes990bss-the-oracle-touch Has most of what you are looking for.
Marc
What happened with the brewtus? :(
Hi Diego, I feel you! The Brewtus (named by us here at Whole Latte Love by the way) is no longer available in US market. Crem/Expobar made the decision to only sell machines with NSF certification in the US market. I feel you as the Brewtus was a long time best seller and an exceptional value compared to other dual boiler machines.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage thank you Marc!
What would you recommend now? You used to carry the Breville Dual Boiler but I don't see it in the lists now. Any particular recommendation for around $1500? I'm trying to upgrade from a Breville Barista Express. I already have an Eureka Silenzio to pair it
Thank you again
I bought a nespresso machine and it’s terrible!!! You might as well drink instant coffee. So now the question is what machine should I buy?
Hi Silvana, Some people like Nespresso for the convenience - I was in Italy for a couple weeks and they were common in hotels/Airbnb. But, there is no substitute for fresh ground beans. Options are bean to cup super-automatic machines which retain convenience or semi-auto machines which require some skill to operate. Something like the Gaggia Brera super-auto will do much better quality than the Nespresso: www.wholelattelove.com/gaggia-brera-espresso-machine-in-black
Marc
Great vídeo, but I don't love the E61, that's why I Still use my profitec 300 pro. Is there any expresso machine dual boiler without the E61 group???
Hi LS, Well, the 300 is dual boiler without the E61. Beyond that the Bezzera Matrix and Duo machines are dual boiler with no E61 group. Check them out here: www.wholelattelove.com/collections/bezzera
Marc
Whole Latte Love
Thank you Marc, but there is only Bezzera’s!
Is there anything else? 🤔
First!!!!!
David Baker Awesome! Thank you!!!