Theory of Enchantment | Chloé Valdary | EP 220
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- Опубликовано: 8 июн 2024
- This episode was recorded on September 15th, 2021.
Chloé Valdary and I discuss The Theory of Enchantment, her personal brand of compassionate anti-racism. Chloé has been featured in Psychology Today and the NY Times. Her work with Theory of Enchantment attempts to bring compassion to diversity training and fight bigotry with love.
We covered a range of topics surrounding her practice, structural racism in the US, the civil rights movement, the best way to criticize one another, the power of Truth, white fragility, and what one could expect from her (rather unique) diversity seminars.
Find more from Chloé @cvaldary
/ cvaldary
& check out her program at
theoryofenchantment.com
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Timestamps
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[00:00] Intro
[00:30] Chloé’s background
[01:52] Why did Chloé want to talk?
[02:53] Reading Dr. Peterson’s Maps of Meaning in a lockdown
[03:38] What is the goal or focus behind Valdary's work?
[04:05] “Supremacist thinking occurs when a human being experiences... some type of deep insecurity within themselves" - Chloé Valdary
[04:49] “Enchantment theory says that we have to engage in a series of practices to be in the right relationship with ourselves… [and so] less likely to overcompensate and project supremacist attitudes onto others" - CV
[05:08] Jordan’s list of questions through Chloé's looking glass
[05:49] Sources of racism
[12:36] “There are problems money doesn't solve. It would be lovely if [that] produced full security in every aspect, but it doesn't" - Jordan Peterson
[12:57] Working with corporations on DEIS
[16:55] Debating the validity of lived experience
[17:11] “Are you an unquestionable authority on the nature of your lived experience? The answer is yes and no" - JP
[21:23] “[Race] certainly isn’t the best way to conceptualize diversity” - JP
[23:46] Examining the pathos behind two great leaders in the civil rights movement: Dr. Martin Luther King & Malcolm X
[27:34] Chloé’s experience as a teacher
[33:06] Learning to appreciate complexity in both the individual and the diverse
[36:17] “Raising everyone’s material standards… is ultimately insufficient" - JP
[36:34] Seeing people as political abstractions
[38:14] Alienation, diversity training, and rural America
[44:28] “There are arbitrary pre-conditions to our existence that we didn't choose to deal with" - JP
[48:25] How to uplift (never destructive) criticism
[51:07] Variance in coping mechanisms
[54:44] Everyone is starving for (words of) encouragement
[57:07] Rooting everything in love and compassion. Where do those guidelines come from?
[01:03:45] Wonder Woman, Power, & Truth
[01:04:52] The human capacity to destroy the planet
[01:09:29] I'm convinced that there is nothing more powerful than truth in the word." - JP
[01:10:53] On white fragility
[01:17:31] “Part of the problem in the West is this false understanding of meaning as derived from propositions when it is, in fact, participatory ways of knowing that give rise to propositions in the first place" - Chloé Valdary
[01:18:48] The meaning of the word ‘enchantment’
[01:26:23] “The objective of ToE is to bring people back to this relational way of being and to be in balance with their own complexity" - Chloé Valdary
[01:26:59] What Chloé does at a ToE seminar
[01:32:16] “People have access to the truth… [regardless of] socioeconomic standing" - JP
[01:34:33] Wrapping up
#Racism #Diversity #ImplicitBias #CRT #TheoryOfEnchantment
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This is the first discussion on race that had anything productive to say that I have heard in decades. Truly excellent.
Sadly , most people who conduct discussions on race don't want to fix a problem but rather keep it going. In the U.S. a person fortunately or unfortunately can make money or a lot of money from anything. Sadly we have people who have made money off of problems and suffering when they were supposed to be solving problems.
That’s nonsense
Nonsense? Your comment is nonsense.
@@fabbeyonddadancer Part of it is sad and may be hyperbole, but it's not demonstrably lacking in sense.
Facts
Finally. Finally. I have been looking for this type of conversation: A conversation that can get to the real root of our polarizing world. It's not political. It's on a much deeper, moral, psychological and spiritual level. Thank you both for an amazing and crucial discussion.
So, so true! Much more interesting than even the best political debates.
Agreed! What a wonderful conversation! And what an impressive lady!
@Madison Hurst, Great comment! Great discussion and method. Forwarding this link to my circle. Impressive and beautiful conversation. Reminds me of Jesus’ words, “Love one another as I have loved you.” John 15:12
Politicians don’t want us to think they are influencing our thoughts and actions but they do along with the media. They know exactly how easily they can manipulate us. We need to stop allowing them to make us think we hate each other even if we don’t think we do and stop trying to divert our attention away from what they are doing to us by creating these divides and getting us to point fingers at each other instead of them.
It's sad this even has to be explained.
Beyond impressed with Chloé. Her worldview resonates with me, as this is exactly the philosophy I was raised with and believe in. We desperately need her wisdom in our Canadian education system. All the best to her.
What a titanic conversation. I'm so enamoured with people who actively drive to better our civilization by looking at the fundamental way our societies work, identifying the problems, and then seeking a solution. It's hard for people like myself to keep up with them as I listen, but their conversation just fills me with a positive energy for humanity that I just want to share with others.
100%…this conversation is just beautiful 🥲
You’ve been my only friend at times Dr JP….and you don’t even know me. Thank you for pushing through your suffering and continuing. You keep showing me how to be tough and wise. Thank you and God bless.
9
Get out there and socialize. Just keep in mind, everyone is just as self-conscious as you are, and usually they are too worried about their own flaws to judge yours. Also, don't accept criticism from anyone you wouldn't accept advice from.
Keep your head up mate, take care of yourself and stay hopeful and grateful. Rejection is protection. Loneliness can be a great opportunity for growth and learning and just by the fact you are listening to JP you are most likely on a great track. I felt the same way for years and JP certainly helped me to get through hard times and face my own demons.
@@adinfinitum4765 Amen to that
@@Dee-nonamnamrson8718 Just to bring more clarity to the table - these 2 things (Jordan seeming like the best friend at times & going out there) can coexist, they are not exclusionary
I do not live in the west but I am going to stop by to say a huge thank you for everything that you have done for the past few years in the hope that you might read this- I have been able to aim high, stopped being resentful and have tried to be a model for my younger brother (I am 17). In the process of achieving high aims I have run into many many problems and you have been the person that I come to for counsel. Things are pretty good- at least much better than would otherwise be and god knows I'm trying and I hope I get somewhere.
Keep going! More power to you, friend!
Good luck man..you will if you put in the effort.. The result might not be visible to you right now.. But it will come.. All the best
Where do you live?
We're the same age😁👍.
Keep up the momentum
I absolutely *LOVE* the ideas Chloe put forth. The idea that we need to start with Agape love and support people in becoming the best versions of themselves is truly beautiful.
It’s like all the goals and ideas the left preaches, but with reality in the equation.
Man, JP, this is unquestionably in the top tier of your conversations to date. This is true both in terms of the content as well as the maturity and gentleness of your interaction. Thank you both for this valuable contribution.
My goodness, what a lovely person she is. I could listen to her gentle, intelligent, profound lectures for hours. This was a wonderful dialogue between two wonderful people.
“Between TWO wonderful people”
😁 she is pretty isn’t it ?
@@Jason-gm7zr Yes. They both are and it really comes through in the dialogue.
@@delicheres On the inside and the outside.
@@robpetrone2459 I agree ☺️
Every time I see Chloe Valdary it just gives me hope for humanity. She is breaking down the right questions. She seriously needs to be heard on a much broader scale.
This was my first exposure to Chloe, I will seek her out.
@@stevesedio1656 yes. I hope she finds a way to amplify her voice. I wish she would go on Rogan.
Agree
I've known about her for a while. Gives me hope for the future
@@whitemale6227 Do you have anything meaningful to say about her content and message? Otherwise you’re just judging her because of the melanin in her skin. Not a sign of intelligence on your part.
Wow, 28 and she has accomplished so much in knowing herself, at 37 I'm still struggling to find solutions to the problems I have recently only managed to admit I have... way to go child, power to you.
This was a masterclass in how to have a proper dialectic! This is what makes people like JBP and Chloe Valdary exceptional individuals; they are active listeners and their intentions when going into a conversation is to seek to understand one another. At first, Jordan thought this might be a contentious interview; he was pretty sure Chloe was more on the SJW/ Diversity and Inclusion type. Wow how he came around to show a HUGE deal of respect for Chloe and she really deserved it! JBP does not impress easily! Much love to Chloe; she seeks to better the world and has such humility and grace, coupled with a fierce intellect and an infinitely patient spirit. We need more spirits like hers in the world; a wonderful example of how to live in balance and peace with yourself. Such incredible wisdom before the age of 30! Insane! I'm very impressed with her indeed.
This was not a master class in proper dialectic. What you witnessed was a civilized conversation between two people who agreed with each other.
I don’t understand. This sounds like Mary Poppins’ A Spoonful of Sugar Makes the Medicine Go Down. If her premise is that white = racist, I don’t care how sweet the coating, it’s still poison. HARD PASS!
@@Teal_Seal She never stated nor is it her premise that white = racist; where did you hear her express this as any kind of viewpoint of hers?
@@Handlethis342 sure, I'll take that definition as well... close enough :)
@@Teal_Seal you didn’t listen to the conversation past the first 2 minutes
First time listening to Chloe and truly enjoyed her perspective on alienation rooting from civilization and not politics. Another great video Dr. Peterson!
You could argue that the politics are the roots of the civilization that we live on top of and all of their resulting benefits and consequences which stem from those roots. It's easy for anyone to look in and say my part of the stem isn't getting as much water as the other parts without recognizing how difficult it is to modify the entire plant
She seems to be knowing a lot
@@YaliBomaye It's a part of it, not the whole. Agriculture, music, art, spirituality, religion, technology, and economics, to name a few, aren't politics. Saying Jazz is black music is really just a lie. Louis Armstrong who is early jazz looked up to a white trumpet player, for example. Yes, the US Constitution is political and spiritual idealism, and it's a profound document. The issue is the tyranny of power. When people get into power they commit horrendous actions, which are separate from civilization or politics. They may then influence the laws and politics, but the root issue is tyranny of power mingled with racism. It's not to say people don't inflict pain on people of the same skin color because they most definitely do. The tyranny of power is a greater variable than even perceived or actual racism. It manifests as racism.
@@YaliBomaye yep, so much deeper than one issue, and identity politics tries to address this with a shallow understanding
@@ADUAquascaping sure but all those nice things come from good resource allocation i.e politics
Had to check my dictionary a few times, but fully enjoyed this discussion. I deeply appreciate the time taken to deconstruct and explain the ideas and topics at hand to give us clarity and/or point to where contradictions lie (and hence give words to the part of us that says "I don't know why, but something feels off here."). Thank you both.
Due to your comment I was alert to the vocabulary. One word I heard was "heuristics"... Had to look it up! 😂
That's what I love about him. He forces you to educate yourself so you can keep up. It's very much so needed in today's time. I'm from the hood and I hate using slang 24/7.
It drives me nuts if I don’t know what a word means. I’ll ask my husband to pause a show so I can look it up.
I also had to check the dictionary a few times lol.
Heck yes
Absolutely loved this! She is the 1st person I have ever heard speak on diversity (I have had to take diversity training and CRT) that made me excited to learn and understand more while examining my own thoughts feelings and attitudes! She gave me hope for all people of good will! Absolutely excellent!
This is the first time I’ve heard this conversation had in such a non-partisan way. It’s so refreshing and this young woman makes incredible points as does Jordan. It’s honestly eye opening and I believe a way in which we should discuss these issues on a policy as well as governmental level
That’s her whole platform: unity of our people not homogeneity and withheld integrity. You don’t have to be the same to get along
This woman has depth and maturity; she is very impressive, using her intelligence as she shapes her perspectives on life.
Amazing, truly.
i mean, everyone uses their intelligence to shape their perspectives on life to some degree haha. She is definitley a bright mind tho, i agree, i think..
@@bigmac786 lol, yes, definitely. The question is, to what degree are we consciously doing so?
*Who else is grateful for this channel? 🙌💜*
*I beleive in you!*
I have been encouraged and uplifted by you many times, Dr. Peterson. And now to discover you Ms. Valdary is a joy and a delight. To bring about transformation via inspiration and enrollment rather than by accusation and suppression. To enchant! Yes. Yes. Much admiration and respect to you both.
That was a dope talk!! Chloe is way beyond her time.
"It's been an incredible respite" Thank you for those words Chloe.
I have a saying about people who are classified as "Old Souls".
"Old souls are created by young spirits who coherently comprehend information rapidly."
And another saying I have towards people who are considered "Ahead of their time".
"There is no such thing as a person born ahead of their time, there are only those of whom who have mastered the time they are born in."
@Anya Wale what do you mean?
@Anya Wale If I may ask, What makes her ideas and way of thinking flawed compared to your ideas and how you think?
@Anya Wale I didnt mean to dare anything...lol....but again...if I may ask....how does she not have morals? Can you explain this to me? Im honestly genuinely curios.
Maybe Ms Chloe is an old soul in a young body.
I've been following Chloe online for a few years now, and seeing all her years of working and reading and writing and thinking coalesce in this way is fantastic. I really admire her, and wish her tremendous success, for all our sakes. The world needs people like Chloé Valdary.
Been saying the same thing. She is a gem of a thinker.
She literally just said if you don't like the behaviors of sex traffickers, and murderers its because of your own ego complexes. This girl is gone. You can even tell Peterson strains quite a few times here.
@Dylan Martinelli did you not listen to any of this interview? I am sorry for your experience, but this “character” Chloe is preaching the exact opposite of what you’re projecting on to her. I suggest you listen to her words.
Shes racist
@@nateyoung I mostly agree but I think she is being too naive when it comes to the emotions of Kendrick Lamar and some of the other authors talked about here.
I’ve noticed that every time jordan brings up music, tears come to his eyes, and this is why I have an incredibly deep love and connection to this man. He gets it, man does he get it!
This young lady @28 years old so eloquently and confidently held her own in the company of one of today's most revered intellectuals. Her words so true that Dr P has been a respite and his, how exciting it will be to see what she is yet to accomplish. This was absolutely lovely.
A beautiful, profound and powerful conversation. I found it deeply moving and was left with a sense of hope and possibility.
What an amazing discussion. I’m in the process of fighting against an “anti-racism” training that has become mandatory at a food coop where I work. It’s filled with the typical CRT ideology that separates humans into groups with a focus on the “white supremacy”culturural characteristics. I’ve read through the source material for the training and I was astonished at the blatant racist comments in the material as well as a distinct anti Christian and anti heterosexual spin on most things they are speaking to. I’ve been angry for a few weeks after seeing this and I am in the process of filing a complaint through our HR department. The conversation that was presented was heart melting for me. I’m still angry and depressed about going forward with my complaint but….the talk made me consider my tangled emotions about the whole thing. Chloe’ made me rethink my motives and to truly see my adversaries as image bearers of our common God. Doing battle against bad ideas is what I’m attempting. Seeing the wrong thinking and ideas separate from those proposing them is where I see I need to be from a spiritual place. My heart has to be right to do battle not hard and calloused but pliable,flexible enough to swing a sword at evil and still able to still give a cup of water to my enemy. What she described in the last 45 minutes or so helped me to see my own personal “racist sheriff” with his family that he loves but yet stuck in hate. And….of course my ego and desire to be right. This is hard stuff. I know God is helping me and the “battle” has just begun. “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places”. That’s the real picture of my battlefield and the true enemy…. not the flesh and blood of those I oppose when I fight against the darkness. God please keep my heart true to you in all I do and say and be my refuge,my fortress, my high tower, and my Shepard as go into the valley. It’s a war I can’t win through my own power. Thank you Jordan and thank you Chloe’ . God ran through …galloped through both you as you spoke. This was such a blessing
My advice is don't try to do battle yet
@@onegorgeouschick hmm… why
There are many of us in a similar situation in the respective place where we work. Keep fighting the good fight friend.
John, an older sister in our congregation gave me a book that is very in line with this discussion that you should get and read. It is titled “The Anatomy of Peace - Resolving The Heart of Conflict “. In fact I would swear much of Chloe’s approach is either based on this book or she is just very similar in her approach and philosophy. It is a very good book and the concepts/principles are taught through a story. One of the main principles is to see everyone including those you see as your enemy as human beings and not as objects. It is a must read book and should be the curriculum for all of us to better understand each other and get along.
@@Usernameblahblahnblah Amen, the devil is the master deceiver- but when we have God, we see right through it!
I'm always impressed with Chloé, such a smart thinker. Her and Coleman make me profoundly unimpressed with how seriously I thought about anything when I was their age!
I remember being exactly this way when I was in college.
@@valley5617 you're just built different then 😈🥶🥶
@@chickenwing2453 I believe my comment was indicating I was the same as Chloe
@@valley5617 hahaha my bad 😂
I'm sure you use the word profoundly often.
This is one hell of an interview! Amazing conversation. Thank you both for an incredibly refreshing take on what anti-racism actually could be.
"...Just as that person did something harmful, I can also see that person as equally capable of doing something good, even as I am capable of those same things."
Very wise words from Chloe! Sometimes it's hard for us to see the complex humanity in others when we have certain prejudices in our minds, whatever prejudices those might be. And I loved when she talked about the time Malcolm X saw white Muslims and was stunned with the realization that all people (regardless of ethnicity, nationality, religion, personality etc.) are meant to be brothers and sisters to one another. All of us need to support one another as human beings and not let our biases and assumptions blind us from the overall human condition! And most importantly we need to recognize the humanity in each other any time we have disagreements or conflicts.
With love, Logan C. ❤
Simply wow... Seeing someone so smart, eloquent, patient, open-minded and competent at such a young age is so inspiring, I'm 19 and have been feeling the need to use all the wisdom that Jordan has been transmitting and become the best version of myself. Admittedly I have been a bit down lately because I thought I wouldn't be able to do it, but seeing this... it is truly inspiring, thank you both so much
Remember that it doesn't happen over night. I've learned that over the past 5 years, as I've overcome panic disorder, am overcoming OCD currently. Also became a father within that time period, whilst supporting a family on my own (had my daughter at 19). Quit smoking recently after 2 years of trying.
Ups and down happen, the downs feel hard to overcome. Sometimes they last 1 day, 1 month, or looking back retrospectively, 1 year.
But you'll get there. It really is like a massive staircase. You get half way up, you're tired. You look forward and there are another 10,000 steps. But you never look back to see that you've already cleared half, you never give yourself a pat on the back and take a break. Sometimes you need to take time to look back and appreciate your development and see how far you've come. And then move forward, step by step.
If not, you risk falling. But, if you do fall, you get your arse back up!
But keep going, I'm sure you're doing great. But if you're watching this type of material, and are actively trying to become better, you're on the right staircase! Sorry for the bad analogy, but we're of similar age and I thought my limited wisdom hopefully would provide you some objectivity and a heightened perspective on what you mentioned you're going through 😊
Life is a ongoing struggle for a lot of people. The important part is that you continue going and remember to stand up when you fall down. I know it sounds arbitrary, but do things that are good to you and do good things. If you treat yourself like someone, that is important to you, you will get better. If you treat others and help others, you will feel better. For example, recently I started to work as a volunteer in a food distribution center, it is really great. Beside the misery you see of people who have really a struggle not only on a psycho emotional level, but down to an existential one, you do something where you get a positive feedback. I repeat this, you do something where you get a positive feedback!! Where in your life is someone who says, "thank you, you were an improvement in my life". This has really helped me to overcome my personal crisis. Really, try it out. Do good in the world and you will become better, it sounds so obvious, but it may help!
Me and you both Merilok
You can do anything you want to do. It takes work, but everything is possible. Go for it!
I would encourage you to listen to some joko Wilkons Podcasts. Jp gives you a Vision. Joko gives you the tools
"[Especially] in the domain of play and humour... there's a real fine line between being playful and teasy and funny, and annoying and aggressive and narcisistic." Came for the social commentary, stayed for the parenting advice. Our daughter says thanks. An inspiring discussion, so refreshingly free of cliche. Much love to you both.
45:10
I'm so incredibly thankful for you both J. P. & Chloe for your nobility, wisdom and clarity. Beautiful conversation!
🙏💪❤️
It is so delightful to see intellectuals of all races, all ages, etc. And this video is a great example of that! 🙏🏼
I’m an instant fan of Miss Valdary. Thank you Dr. Peterson for introducing me to her. This is one of the best discussions I have ever heard.
I'm with you. She has a lot of nuance and care to her thinking.
This woman is delightful and I gotta say I love her taste in music (the poster of Aretha on the wall behind her). Her ideas about suffering versus inflicting injustice are quite profound. One thing I love about Dr. Peterson is that he and his guests have a rational dialog with no screaming over one another. That kind of dialog is sorely needed in North America.
That is built into the format. Even if he had a guest he highly disagrees with, if you take 1-2 hours to talk to one other person it very seldom gets highly aggressive. (if you don't talk to journalists that just want to get a reaction out of you). If you compare that to a talk show with 4 guests that is 30 minutes everyone has 5 minutes to talk and mostly no chance to engage in arguments. That's why most people just interrupt others to enforce their point. You don't need to do this if you just talk to one person for a long time, you have enough time to make your points and engage in arguments over them.
World wide
It is a ray of sunshine 🌞 to hear such an intelligent young female; it gives this old man 👴 a sense of optimism which I haven’t had for years! Thank you both.
This calmness, sofistication and constructiveness in discussing this topic is unbelievably refreshing and needed.
I have tickets to see your show in a couple weeks. I'm so excited and I want to thank you for your guidance in this crazy world. You've helped me and my husband navigate some difficult years and we are stronger in our marriage than ever! Thank you ☺️
Me too! Atl here I come
Same here,but the media wants to paint us all as brainwashed angry racist white men for being interested in psychology and philosophy
@@goldtiger9453 slowly but surely 'mainstream media' is dying.
And good riddance
Cheers to healthy successful marriages 🥂
I am jealous...
Our high school juniors and seniors visited the Lincoln Memorial this past week, and on our path towards the monument, we saw Jordan Peterson and heard his distinctive voice talking to a group as he walked away from this monument. This was as surreal and strangely appropriate as one could (not even) imagine! It was a gift. And he mirrors Lincoln in so many ways! Dr. Peterson,, you are a gift. And thank you for enabling us to share in that.
Wow!
I lost a friend of over fifteen years because of my admiration for this man. My former friend has nothing but disdain for JP.. but, this man changed my life. And, during my decade as a Buddhist monk, I incorporated much of his philosophy into my talks with folks seeking advice. Jordan Peterson is a bastion of good.. not afraid to admit his shortcomings, but also not afraid to flex his knowledge.
I'll forever admire this man.. and we will lose a great soul when he leaves this world. I'll always wish him the best in life.
I’m still losing people for my admiration of him
@@MrJthedon it's okay, you're in good company. You will find new people who support you and they'll be the ones who truly want the best for you instead of yes men for friends.
We would have all been less without this offering. Thank you Chloé and Jordan.
This was an incredibly enlightening conversation. What a wise woman. I appreciate her perspective. So much respect for you both.
Jordan helped me through a depressing part of my life. I was very pessimistic about the future. I still feel that way. But he helped me as to not let it affect my mind so much that I am disturbed and affected by it.
Likewise. 🙌🏻
Keep reading and listening to more and you may pick up more useful principles of thinking if you are willing to adopt them.
Yep me too, he's an amazing person and he doesn't even know it
@@boltrooktwo I often find myself marveling at the amount of people who share my beliefs and views, like this wonderful Ms Valdary. I’m completely open to change, I just have not found any people with beneficial or unique views that are willing to converse without ignoring, or getting angered/offended.
@@masterofnone8400 It will be a bad day when he stops interacting with the media. I love his eloquence, and his calm intent. Truly a genius who hasn’t gotten the respect or reception he deserves.
"Love" is the word that has been achingly absent from discussions on how to end the culture war. THANK YOU Jordan and Chloe for working to bring it back.
Fantastic conversation! I love the idea that Chloe brought up that the direction of love toward someone can help make them "more human" as a nod to the idea that humanity is something that is given but also developed to it's highest expression over time.
As a black girl who moved recently to abroad, I came here to know how to deal with racism if I encounter one but I have rather been explained how the root causes of racism lies within all of us and the only solution is to treat your brother and your enemies as yourself. Thank you both! Much love ❤
Hello Sarah from abroad. You are wondering how to deal with racism if you encounter it? Well, how about I complicate that problem for you? First question is what IS racism? If you ask me, ( as a former left indoctrinated sump of misery and despair), I would tell you that socialism is racism. It is collectivism, totalitarianism, spite, ignorance of all kinds. Racism is only the purest, most atavistic, most brutal , ugly and obvious form of collectivism. If you ask anybody on the flag burning left side of the world they will tell you that racism is anybody who loves America and freedom. Pick either my side or their side of that argument Sarah, and you will earn the acclaim of one or other side no matter what colour you are. You’re being black, or white, or any other colour, is not going to give you much of a clue.
@Tory this is the best thing i have heard today❤
Yep, as usual Jesus is right :)
I don't think it's racism. I think humans like to identify with groups, and once inducted into a group, they reject other opposing groups in order to protect their group. It's all based off of "survival of the fittest" roots and resource proclivity, and is based in survival and conservation of the species (or groupings of people with similar ideas/beliefs/appearances). Racism is just discrimination based on race. In order to discriminate, one must shut down one's human connection to the other and focus only on their racial/ethnic/political identity. Essentially, viewing the world through an "anti-racist" lense in which your personal bias asserts that racism is always present in certain groups....this simply isn't true. You can't possibly largely collectivize on a scale of this size. It's easier to blame society for individuals (or groups) failing than it is for the individuals (or groups) to self-assess and realize that intergroup issues are to blame for lack of progress. This is why we should seek to focus on discovering ourselves through our "human identities". Only through embracing our many similarities will we realize that our differences aren't worth focusing on.
They both give me hope in humanity! I was almost crying at the end. I truly believe if we see each other as brothers and sisters we would treat each other differently and see each other for the full potential we have to become something different than we are today. I wonder how anyone wouldn’t be able to see and hear the wisdom in both of the messages they shared. We all have things to improve, things to learn, good that we can do. I wish both of you well and will be praying for people to listen to your messages!
I am the son of an Indian immigrant and a German and i cannot subscribe to the idea of permanent, inbuilt racism. We have been living in that German village for 30 years as the only foreigners. And we never had any problems what so ever. not only, but no other Indian friends has ever complained about will discrimination, at least not in the last thirty years.
@@HDBerlin Racism, is used as cover for the replacement of European people.
The vast majority of humanity does just that recognizing we are one human race. The Nihilists are trying to convince us we hate each other. Do not be fooled!
@@HDBerlin I agree with you. We all find ourselves facing the limits of who we’re able to easily define as “like us”, but like these two speakers said, race is only one of those things we might struggle with. It’s entirely possible to not care about race at all. We may care about other things and have similar issues, but there’s nothing special or magical about race that makes it the one problem we can’t overcome.
This kind of philosophical discutions is what the world need the most to heal. I have really loved that content. Keep up the good work ! Most respect to both of you! 🤗
Out of all the podcasts, I really enjoyed this one. This one had been exceptionally enlightening and thought-provoking to me. I'm 27 years old and when I heard Chloe's 28 at the end of the chat, my jaw dropped from shock and admiration. Very knowledgeable and extremely articulate and as we're so close in age, I instinctually compared myself with her. Amazing how deep your knowledge runs and the benefit you're bringing to your groups. From strength to strength.
This is a gift at ones finger tips. So many phenomenal conversations between bright minded people.
Why are you discriminating against the non-phenonmenal conversations between dull people?
The modern magic available to us at just a small flick of the fingers puts all of Merlin's powers to shame.
@@EriPages 🤔 😏
It showing as posted 17 minutes ago and that it lasts 1 hour 37 minutes, yet several comments about the content.
@@Robert-Downey-Syndrome if you truly believed that, you wouldn't be having one of those conversations with me right now
Came in this talk as a skeptic, mainly due to the thumbnail, left with this being one of my absolute favorite conversations to date, gives me great hope
I was honestly shocked as well. It affirmed a lot of my beliefs that all the issues human beings have are related to unresolved hatred and anger passed down from childhood trauma.
She said something of common sense, that’s it. There is no theory in the “Theory of Enchantment”. The three principles in ToE is what every parent should teach their three-year-old before they go to the day care. What we need is not a more sensible version of training for DEI, we should get rid of any this kind of “training” from the entire adult world with the only two exceptions being prison and mental health facility. Decades ago before you hold an adult job, you should already know everything that she “trains” you to “learn”. The mere fact that what her said was not insane does not mean you or your company should pay for it. This kind of enchantment is how we lost our country, instead of resisting any kind of brainwash, as long as it is the softer form, we would gladly give that ground to those countless theorists.
All of us who are subjected to all the DEI - I hope you enjoy this interview as much as I did! She and her ideas are brilliant!!
Thank you Chloe for developing your solutions to our real problems!
I pray they continue to take hold and make a real impact in our world!
I am 7 minutes into this podcast and already this guest is percieved by me as an extremely wise and thoughtful person. Thank you Mr. Peterson for this interview. Blessings to you both...
One thing that has helped me with the desire to strive to be in right relationship with myself, is the knowledge that there is always going to be someone wiser, smarter, stronger, faster, more powerful, wealthier, more in love, etc... and the will be those 'less than' in the categories and all others... so why not strive to better myself and seek to help better others...
High tide rises all ships...
Love one another...
Love our neighbors...
All neighbors...
Raiding parties of rival chimpanzees do not bring harmony to our communities.
This man is so powerful that he can split RUclips videos into chapters :D
This was healing. I hope our political trench warfare will elevate beyond what it is now to something approximating this conversation in the coming years.
I think healing is a near perfect word for this. It's great to see how many people are similarly influenced!
New karma comes by way of faith and forgiveness, otherwise we are stuck in fear. It all has to do with forgiveness. Then there are tools to achieve this transformation, which are introspection, meditation, prayer, entheogenic microdosing, breathing meditation. Forgiveness is the way and the way is grace. This is the human disposition and transcends basic religion.
It is true we want good world.
Chloe is one of the most important thinkers today. I'm so glad to see her on your podcast!
I'm always deeply impressed by the quality of her thinking and powers of empathy. I wish she could have a bigger audience.
This was an absolutely wonderful episode. I couldn't agree more with you and your guests. I was literally having this conversation last night with a diverse group of friends. We all came to a similar conclusion but didn't have the words to express it as clearly. I appreciate the time you took to explore this topic in a deep and meaningful way. As a black man, I'm so tied of the mainstream media playing identity politics. The 'woke' mob and the far right need to watch this and take notes. More please 🙏
the first time I saw this girl I seriously wondered how someone so young could possibly be so wise, And I swear she keeps getting both younger and wiser. Keep it up, both of you! looking forward to Seeing where Chloe is at in 20 years.
By your reckoning, she'll be about 4-years-old
@@danfm200 Can you imagine a 4yr old girl with the combined wisdom of Lincoln, King, and Epictetus?
She is smart and thinks and works hard.
Her wisdom comes from being open to empathy with the human condition. Wisdom is not of the mind but of the heart
The beauty of conversion is to be able to pick at that idea which is is tenable and dispose of the idea which is not in our own minds.. to be able to sort of expose and process ideas which lie behind the veil of our unchallenged minds.. Nobody has all the answers but everybody is able to contribute something. Having said this I think Dr Joy DeGruy would be an interesting person to have as a guest with these two because I think they have very similar perspectives and I think this exchange of ideas would be epic!
Jordan, I absolutely love these conversations and it is heartwarming to see that you are enjoying it so much you are almost moved to tears, as you are really into talking to your guest. I feel just the same way when realizing midway into a conversation how much of a pleasure it is to talk to a sincere person that seems to get it and to exchange words among one another. Please keep this up, you are doing alot of good with these talks.
What a hopeful, beautiful, and profound conversation.I'm quite moved.
Halfway through. What a wonderful and insightful conversation. Please bring Chloé back some time!
This is, hands down, the most compelling discussion I've heard on this subject. Thank you for taking the time to have this discussion.
This was one of the conversations I’ve always Consciously wanted to take place. It’s great to see the merging of these two minds in particular. Wonderful podcast from Chloe Valdary and Dr Peterson. What a time to be alive.
100% this was fantastic
This moved me to tears. Thank you both so much for this conversation.
I'm here for the first time, to try to elevate my level of understanding by listening to conversation slightly above my level of comprehension. Thank you both
I didn't know Chloe Valdary before this discussion and I have more faith in humanity after listening to this. Thank you Chloe and Jordan!
That was BEAUTIFUL! Thank you both for bringing an open minded, open hearted discussion to encourage us all to be mindful of the complexity of being human. It took me 6 weeks to get through Maps of Meaning. I am going to listen to the audio and take notes this next time around.
I was struck by the emotion in this piece, and wondered where that comes from. Is it a product of a deeply stimulating conversation? Or a deep relief in discovering something truly positive and unifying in opposition to current divisive ways of thinking? In part I think JBP was moved by the incredible grace and wisdom in someone as young as Cloé. Having watched this makes me hopeful for the future.
I thought about it, and what I see is the same as when you unexpectedly find something so beautiful that it moves you.
We are more unified than we give ourselves credit for. Look at how the world is able to operate and you realize how much we rely on and trust each other. In my opinion, its not about liking or accepting every part of someone or their culture but realizing that we all exist in a system that is built on trust.
Like, "I'd like to watch and listen to this for the first time" type of vibe.
Probably one of the best conversations. What a well balanced guest in the way she presents her views and is able to find a place to add her perspective in a manner that is complimentary and inclusive!
This was legitimately the first time I wanted Jordan to stop talking. But how could he stop wanting to discuss what she was saying? I was absolutely giddy with the insight and clarity she was offering in such a positive manner. And I can tell Jordan felt the same. This was wonderful
I felt the same way. Like “those are great thoughts and comparisons but be quiet Jordan, I want to hear the rest of her point or thought.”
I’m glad to see this ill movement being deconstructed and discussed.
As they pointed out, calling one a shadow of themselves will actually encourage them to show their shadow; I am fearful that the damage done by this illiberal movement has yet to show itself in full. Telling all minorities they are being actively oppressed and that all white people are full of contempt and racist for two years is bound to fester and foster the shadow on both sides to a boiling point.
She is high on cannabis. I googled her and she relies on cannabis
@@davidbasaraba457 do you mean she uses recreational cannabis? so if drug use is how you judge human beings i guess you totally disregard anything jordan has to say due to his addiction to benzodiazepines?
big movement
There was something, not holding eye contact, reading from left and down, I find I'm "triggered" by the terms "left wing" "right wing", just see the person in front of you.
Additionally, when this nonsense started, it was D-I-E, which Dennis Prager identified back in 2015ish. [?]
Chl`oe Valdary is a beautiful,old soul.Her assert-
tions,observations,and breadth,depth,and nuance
of knowledge is sublime. Her thoughts on indivi-
who have a avarice,and need for certainty is spot
on.This discussion was like the discussion I have
come accustomed with having with my younger
sister,and younger brother 🧭☀️🌝🌞📖
I want more of her.
Even though I think racism is NOT one of my weaknesses, i think her course would make me a better human beeing.
The spirit she emmits is admirable.
Her "enchantment" may well be the healing we need as humanity.
At least she has the potential to build powerful Bridges.
Chloe, you are the wisest 28 year old I've had the privilege to hear speak. Thank you for your time and efforts. I appreciate you.
*You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending, this is the start of the rest of your life, and I know that you have great things ahead of you!*
*Incredible video!*
@@seanleith5312 Are you ok with others treating you the same way?
Sadly countries have to be built in blood. If we start it from the beginning. Thts why mass death is a inevitable part of communism its square one. Like you said we need to improve on what we have
@@seanleith5312 maybe you were "born that way".
That's actually what Jordan was saying in different words.
We are all born preferring our own group. But then we are supposed to grow up...
A platitude in bold letters is still a platitude.
Absolutely!!! Looking backwards is a waste of mental energy. Start right now doing the right thing and being a shining example for all.
This dialogue illustrates so wonderfully how calmly two beings, that are so knowledgeable as Peterson and Valdary can communicate and appreciate one another even when coming from different vantage points.
Very insightful, very thought provoking. Two brilliant minds. Thank you both for this (too short) 1 hour and 37 minutes.
These types of conversations change, influence and better people, and I believe there is a large number of people who are hungry for them.
Thank you Jordan and Chloe!
This young woman’s demeanour and the way she carries herself in this dialogue is the embodiment of what I aspire for my children. When she quotes and references others she simultaneously manages to pay respects, convey insights into the source material and make it a useful additive to her own personal message. I hear pathos, logos and agape mentioned but I would ascribe ethos as a stand-out characteristic of your guest.
She seems to be reflecting Peterson back at him. Things she knows he will agree with and will want to talk about.
@@pwleb I'm saying she knows who Peterson is and appears to be consciously dropping in things that he will approve of. It is a disappointing conversation because the fundamental element of the conversation.should have been what is racism? They don't agree with what that is but it is skimmed over. She defines it as coming from a source of insecurity but Peterson says it's something more innate to human beings. That point is never resolved. So much of what is said is word babble. Philosophical, cultural and psychological name dropping.
@@pwleb why you playin dumb? 😂✌️🇺🇸
@@maybe3566the simplest answer would seem to be that insecurity is innate to the human condition.
@@johnstadler1341 It sure is. Sadly so too is racism. It's that in built prejudice that our lizard brain comes packaged with.
I love that you two continue to touch on the fact that financial solutions are NOT absolute solutions. Money solves some problems, but not all.
Especially with how money centered our popular culture seems to be. It's disheartening sometimes to see how a person's years of experiences and knowledge are appraised by their income or job title... as if that's an adequate measure of their quality of life.
I used to work for a millionaire who lived in the Malibu Hills. He was brutally lonely, overworked, socially awkward and had no idea how to even begin to sort out the problems in his life. Shouldn't surprise anyone because we hear about people like this all the time. And its like on one hand, his wealth makes him an invalid for criticism- because he made it right? He's in a high tax bracket and the people beneath him can't say shit. But on the other hand, he's lost his right to sympathy and his right to suffer (in their eyes).
And THAT'S some real alienation. Few people ever touch on it.
I'm 40 minutes in but I'm thoroughly enjoying this discussion.
"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" -Mark 8:36
of course, it doesn't solve all problems. but money does help us navigate the material world and the scales have not been balanced.
also, no idea your own circumstances but most people I hear from who tend to reduce the signifigance of financial freedom, flexibility & egalitarianism were either born into money or somehow got it later. they're, materially, comfortable & can focus on other things in life BECAUSE they're not worried about medical and dental insurance or being homeless or hungry..or how they'll feed & take of their children (who are already here) in other ways due to a job loss and/or poverty, as there a lot of full time+ working poor.
and not saying they have to or should but (when I've been close enough to them to ask):
not one of those individuals - wealthy or not - is prepared to give up all of their money..the same fiat currency which they claim is not all that important & that's hypocritical.
@@DiandraStarShine the reason they won't give it up is because they don't want to burden everyone else with not having to worry about money, and being poor is really a privilege, and also those people wouldn't know what to do with money if they had it, and by God they deserve it, and why are you so jealous of success, etc...
@@DiandraStarShine There was a study that came out a few years ago about how money doesn't make you happier. The final conclusion was that it doesn't, but, the same study showed that it doesn't once you reach a certain yearly income bracket. 75k a year was the income bracket. So when people say money doesn't make you happier the only real response to that is no more money doesn't make you happier.
@@rdalge you are very confused & a sociopath.
I love how this conversation breaks down the concepts of Diversity. I think the definition of diversity laid out here, shows how irregardless of what you look like, we can fall back on our common human traits. And this I believe is a way forward to peace. Its giving me tools to use when trying to understand and navigate my community. Thanks!
This was absolutely brilliant, and so well spoken. Clarity and poise in discussion of supercharged conversation topics is exactly what we need in this age. Well done to both JP and CV.
First saw Chloe on Tim Pool’s podcast and have found her perspective to be so interesting. Looking forward to coming in contact with more of her work.
I watch Tim, but missed that one. Found it, watching - thanks!
I became an instant fan when she started talking about Jung and Descartes etc., and not just talking she understands the knowledge deeply. What an amazing young woman.
She literally just said if you don't like the behaviors of sex traffickers, and murderers its because of your own ego complexes. This girl is gone. You can even tell Peterson strains quite a few times here.
@@matthewcurry3565 but she didn't literally say that, did she? You've added your own interpretation and expanded it to be something completely unrecognisable from her actual answer. If that's what you took out of that segment, you've totally misunderstood the thought exercise she was describing.
I watch Tim on his news vids, but this is my first time seeing her. I don't watch his live show, just an economics of time issue.
She is so interesting! Smart and insightful like JBP or Brett and Heather, she understands and then articulates in a very meaningful manner.
Oh man I'm so excited - the spark in Peterson in this conversation reminds me of the spark that attracted me to his lectures to begin with. He seems like he's right back on the frontier of thought that I've loved exploring along with him for years. So happy I get to meet this man in March.
Yes right! that spark was there and so good to see it. I would sadly contrast this with his recent appearance on Joe Rogan, which I found to be a quite stressed and unfocussed, almost hard to watch, I thought- I hope Jordan is ok, not in too much pain. I don't wish to be destructively critical. I know from JRE that Jordan reads many RUclips comments. If you do see this one, I would like to say thank you most of all for having conversations like this one with Chloé. It feeds my soul and I feel stronger. Music for the intellect, perhaps? Enjoy meeting him in March!
Extraordinarily beautiful conversation. What a beautiful soul. I was moved to tears, thank you.
I love how Chloe lets Jordan do most of the talking, yet she still steers him towards her position. She is a true master of enchantment.
this is a healthy balance of left and right. someone who knows the rules being guided by someone who sees what's important to highlight
I just have to say, another fantastic interview/discussion by Jordan Peterson. Ms. Valdary is fantastic in her views and thoughts. I am really glad she has this opportunity to air her views.
One of your biggest fan from Cameroon... Also well done Chloé, this is not my first time hearing about the theory of enchantment. I think it is very in line with biblical methodology.
Francis Ngannou 💪
@@TheExtremeCube 😂🙌
me too
My brother was missionary in Uganda, so Africa will always be in my heart. Blessings from Croatia ✝️🇭🇷
Funny how that old despised book has so much wisdom and clarity about the human condition.
As an individual there is more hope for my own betterment and development after this listen.
I am indebted to the both of you.
We need more conversations like this where people on polar opposites of how to approach an issue have a constructive and good faith discussion.
Wow. I went in prepared to hear more bs “anti-racist” gimmicky, but was so pleasantly surprised and impressed with your guest and the conversation!
Same!
Reading again your comment I feel the aggresive/destructive tone goes a bit agaisn't what she is advocating for. I don't know you, sorry if I ill-interpret you. What do you think?
@@brujua7 Let me try again: When she was presented as an "anti-racist consultant" I bristled and anticipated more destructive rhetoric espoused by the likes of Kendi and others. Instead I found myself in full support of her mission, and her and Peterson's joint critique of the "DIE" philosophy.
@@ofiasdfnosdf Nice!
Interesting! I knew of her from before, so I didn't expect that.
But I was still pleasantly surprised by this discussion - Valdary here revealed much greater depths to her thinking than I have heard before.
Crazy! I literally thought to myself why hasn't Chloe talked to Dr. Peterson yet? and here we are 😃💪🏾
OMG same here!
@@carolyng.6405 Ok- both of you please think about why I’m not a millionaire yet… 🙏🏼
Dear JP "go from strength to strength"! I Completely agree with Chloé's encouragement. Well done, Chloé. Keep it going!
This woman’s words, voice, and philosophy are a salve for our time. ❤️
This discussion was delectably satisfying. Thank you Jordan and Chloe for curating and unfolding this conversation so well. 👍🏽 ✅
It is definitely enjoyable to watch.
I've watched every video on your channel, Dr Peterson, some many times. Your content is gold, and I'm grateful to have your voice in the world! Thank you! 🤓
My God I wish I had the time to do this
This is easily one of the finest dialogues on this podcast yet. Very intelligent, respectful, dignified and compassionate. Well done.
Wow, 2nd time listening & in tears by the conclusion of this dialog. This was a rare intellectual exchange that really enaged both heart and mind in a beautiful way. I am so grateful for being able to listen in.
I loved the conversation and, as I have become more conservative after seeing a growth in authoritarianism in liberal states, I have moved away from some of my more liberal values which have always been a big part of my sense of self.
I think there are two sides to the racism issue in terms of how it is working from the psychological perspective of the individual that is attracted to any kind of supremacy/gang mentality:
There is a positive sense to racial identity which underlies the whole supremacy dynamic of a radically racist individual where they get a sense of positive value by identifying as a member of a racial group. This gives them a sense of belonging and empowerment, a feeling of importance that alleviates the insecurities of their own lives and their own inadequacies. After a while of this race orient d sense of self identity, it becomes harder to understand who you are as an individual and that further impairs you from having the ability to empathize with other groups of people from a different race because you can’t see them as individuals if you yourself are not one at a psychological level. I think racial self identity, although primal and also cultural, can be dangerous and should be tempered with rationality, conversations with people who are different from you, and a sense of individuality that should come with age.
The negative sense of racial formation into the supremacy/gang mentality comes from a sense of resentment and feeling like you deserve better that you are a victim which, to be fair, may to some degree be true. But that feeling of being a victim or resenting other races (like white people or like the Germans resented the Jews etc) because you see them doing well and having money, makes it easy to label them as the “other.”
This racial lens of the world and blaming other races for your own lot in life creates a victim complex that takes away any sense of accountability or personal responsibility for your own life which is actually very destructive for you because the victim mentality keeps you from reaching your potential or actually changing and growing as a person and learning from your mistakes.
Addiction, crime and all the miseries of poverty then become an affliction put upon you as a victim race by the oppressor race. Or if you are a German you are poor and unable to save money, not because of your corrupt government that borrowed so much money that your savings evaporated, but because the Jews took it all with their greedy ways. Then the whole German pride thing hitler did.
It’s that positive and negative sense of self identity that the communist/identity politics or fascist state pushes us towards with propaganda etc where there is no longer free-thinking individuals who are a threat to corrupt societies, but everyone is just a member of a group.
Chloé is GREAT... She needs to get a donation button on her website. These ideas are really needed in this time.
She needs time with Rogan imo.
Not everyone on the internet are out to make a buck. Some are doing it because that's where their heart is. When money is Involved it becomes less genuine.
@@two-bit8502 True, but if you want more of something you should support it.
@@two-bit8502 oh god that's so tired and missing the point. This person is saying they want to support what they feel is a real solution as opposed to other initiatives implemented in a more social engineering and expediently controlling way. This person is most likely not a giant corporation, or even a small one spending their money on "training" that is actually poison to oursociety, and seeing hope for the actual cause of inclusion, they are asking to do what they can to further the enterprise and mission of bringing this very productive and actually inclusive methodology to more people so that the impulse / necessity for inclusion and such is satisfied so that the necessity of the toxic version will be moot. It's precisely because they are MORE genuine that people like this want to donate money. To focus on money, albeit an exhorbanant amount relative to start-up sized projects, as if that's going to cause some problem that in any way out-weighs getting these ideas out there and set as the standard vs the woke nonesense will do an epic amount of good; it will bring conversation back and bring us to a place of power over the actual reins of society and it's course through time. That comment is 100% about giving money for furthering what they perveive is a worthy cause, like chiping infor gas, not paying them to spread an ideology or lobby them like a politician.
For me this was like a drink of cool water in the midst of wandering in the desert. Thank you Chloe' for doing the incredibly hard work of thinking through these issues.
I loved this podcast! I must say that I am genuinely impressed by this young lady, the way she thinks and expresses herself got me with a smile on my face the whole time. She gave me hope for our future generations, keep doing what you are doing! Bravo!! 👏🏻👏🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻