The Marxist Slide from Liberalism | Naomi Wolf | EP 351
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- Опубликовано: 4 июн 2024
- Ep. 351
Watch Jordan Peterson's "Vision & Destiny" on DW+ bit.ly/3KrWbS8
Peterson draws upon his extensive research and relatable real-life experiences to illustrate how to develop attainable goals for intimate relationships, meaningful friendships, and your career. Transform the chaotic potential of the future into actuality - with a vision.
Dr. Jordan B. Peterson and Naomi Wolf discuss her original ambitions, the derailment of her scholarly career at the hands of misogyny, her rise to the forefront of third wave feminism as a best-selling author, and how the mainstream turned on her once she wrote on a topic the Left had blacklisted: COVID-19.
Naomi Wolf is an American author and journalist. Her first book, “The Beauty Myth,” would challenge notions of attraction, arguing they are societally fabricated. This publication became an international bestseller and cemented Wolf as one of the leading spokeswomen for the third wave feminist movement. She has published many books since then, such as “The End of America, and Vagina: A New Biography.” In recent years, she has come under fire for being an “anti-vaxer” and a “conspiracy theorist,” which led Wolf to write her most recent book, “The Bodies of Others: The New Authoritarians, COVID-19 and The War Against the Human.”
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- Chapters -
(0:00) Coming up
(1:24) Intro
(2:48) Why Dr. Wolf agreed to speak with Dr. Peterson
(5:00) The proclivity to cancel
(7:32) Dr. Wolf’s upbringing
(9:19) Yale, party culture and rampant sexism
(12:48) Institutional tolerance
(14:53) Harold Bloom, sexual assault and the grip of authority
(18:35) The moment versus hindsight, experiential planes
(22:18) Subsequent trauma, knocked off course for twenty years
(28:05) The importance of literary criticism
(32:10) Oxford, becoming a road scholar
(38:00) The representation of women in literature
(44:36) Syphilis, terror and social impact
(48:28) Authoritarianism, Nazis, and infectious disease
(58:12) Shifting allegiance
(1:04:00) Imagery and the rate of change
(1:05:46) The rise of conservative humor, and what it means
(1:10:24) David Buss, evolutionary psychology
(1:12:50) Symmetric faces, evolution toward juvenile forms
(1:14:30) Projected attractiveness markers, conceptual flaws
(1:18:00) Female slanted hypergamy, differential burden
(1:21:10) Where Dr. Wolf disagrees, the value of men has decreased
(1:27:24) The attraction of maturity across gender
(1:32:30) The beneficial adversary
(1:40:35) Comedians, laughter exists on the edge of offense
(1:42:48) Productive derailment
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As a psychologist, I've been studying evolutionary psychology and biology for over two decades and am shocked by how many facts Naomi just got completely wrong. She stated that evolutionary biology doesn't analyze the physical characteristics in men which is patently false.
This has long been established in the field that women seek out men with physical traits of strength be it broad shoulders, muscle mass, bone structure, and facial symmetry.
She also stated there has never been a study regarding women's preference in penis size but there have dozens of these studies. One simple Google search alone yielded 5 of these studies.
Thirdly, she stated men now seek out older women with financial resources? Outside of niche perhaps, there isn't a shred of evidence of this being a new standard. Study after study has shown that men rarely seek women based on their financial status.
She views everything from a lens of conspiracy theory that villify men as oppressors, when in reality men's role has been that of hard work and sacrifice. She does this to the point of outright denying the clear science of evolutionary biology and portraying it as being a self-serving narrative created by evolutionary biologists that simply points to the fact that younger women seek men who are older than them and who often have more resources and status yet she herself went on to claim that younger men like older women, oblivious to the blatant contradiction.
Perhaps she is just projecting.
I respect her recent work when it comes to COVID because it revealed that she wasn't willing to go down the lefts path of tyranny but she has an incredibly distorted view of men and the history of the roles of men and women.
The trouble with someone who has never looked at a study of evidence or statistics. Often these people back themselves up into a corner of contradictions.
@@davidsykes7251 I agree but it took me years to accept that so many leftists are so brazenly dishonest as I used to give them the benefit of the doubt, believing they were simply mistaken when they made these claims.
Naomi claimed there were no studies regarding women's preference for penis size. I found 5 studies within 2 minutes including studies from the University of California and The University of New Mexico. There is also a study done in part by Geoffrey Miller, an evolutionary biologist which is interesting because Naomi implied that such studies weren't being done because scientists and evolutionary biologists were afraid of what they may learn.
Leftists love to project their physical inadequacies onto others which is why they love to dish it out but are simulationiously hypersensitive to that same criticism being directed back at them, to the point that they even call basic facts about issues like obesity as "body shaming".
She also implied that evolutionary biologists are creating a self-serving narrative by claiming women seek out older men of status meaning they seek out men like the evolutionary biologists themselves.
Perhaps she is simply projecting because she went on to claim, without supplying a shred of data to support this, that younger men are now seeking out older women with financial resources. Oh, you mean you are claiming men are now seeking out women like yourself, Naomi?? I'm sorry but it's very hard to not see this obvious contradiction as the potential for her simply projecting
She seems to me like someone who was a nerd, who wanted to be an artist, who needed experience to write about what would appeal to the cool kids. This occured at a time where being a victim was a sure fired way to fit in to the newly jaded 3rd wavers.
“Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution”: Theodosius Dobzhansky: 1900-1975.
The trauma in her childhood has left her with a bit of distorted lens. It's so tragic because she is otherwise so intelligent, cogent, and thoughtful. How does one ever recover from those things? I do not know. A couple of her core perspectives are distorted but can't be discussed objectively without triggering a certain emotional ferocity. With the deepest of compassion, it is not easy to recover from such wounds. See "Body Keeps the Score", as she mentions. Let's all seek to be truthful, loving and compassionate with each other and that is the best we can do.
I’ve worked as a psychotherapist in a small college town (the college is Ivy-level) for a number of years, and have kept track of the cases of sexual assault/rape. What I’ve found is that of all mentions of assault/rape, through the process of psychotherapy (which is, in part, the process of articulating, elaborating, and reprocessing of these events and experiences), about half of the cases turn out to be something like: miscommunicated intentions, regret, coercion leading to permissiveness, etc.
During the Kavanaugh hearings alone (2018?), I had 7 women and 1 man disclose assault (3 of the women came to me specifically as a result of their alleged assaults). Of those 7 women, 4 of them eventually concluded that they had simply regretted the encounter or had participated in some way in escalating things (almost always, alcohol was involved), or weren’t explicit in their ambivalence. They had a tremendous amount of guilt and shame. Two of those four had pursued disciplinary action through the university and had the accused man kicked out of school. The university has no requirement for hard evidence, and it is more of a “guilty/accused unless proven innocent” system. These two women spent much time talking about how angry they felt toward themselves for making the accusation, not being accountable/responsible, and significantly affecting these young men’s’ lives. The other two women spent much time discussing their disillusionment with hook-up culture and expectations that women should be able to have sex without emotional or other consequences - just like (allegedly) men.
All cases of assault/rape should be taken extremely seriously, women should be encouraged to come forward immediately, and it should be investigated immediately by police. While we should always *begin* by taking seriously the accusation, an environment of “always believe the woman” is a dangerous and toxic one, where men become victims in an unjust system, and women have to live with what they have done. Sexual abusers should be held accountable. The best way to protect women is to empower them to say “no,” encourage them to report, and allow the justice system to do its work.
I really appreciate this perspective. And I’m sorry but I can’t simply wholly accept her claims of assault when she uses the word ‘basically’ (as in he basically assaulted me) and then states that he put his hand on her thigh. Perhaps she wasn’t comfortable sharing the extent of the incident, and I understand that the professor could be considered in a position of power over her, but him simply making a pass at her, although it may be uncomfortable - it may even cause anxiety and fear - doesn’t blatantly make it assault, even if the attempt was unwanted/unwarranted.
It is not appropriate to pass judgment on a man making a sexual pass at a woman solely based on that woman’s psychological state or history of trauma, despite that woman imagining all the possible terrifying outcomes that could potentially occur, as if this man, simply for choosing to approach her, is the actual representation of terror from her imagination or past. I can sympathize with the terror because I have experienced a similar fear with aggressive and violent people in my life. But a man making a sexual pass at a woman can’t always know if it is unwanted or unwarranted until the attempt has been made. Are there signs that are given and should be looked for? Of course. But is it clear exactly what the signs and rules are? Absolutely not. Is it appropriate for someone in a position of power to benefit from their authority in their intimate relationships? Maybe not, but are there not also plenty of anecdotes of healthy or consenting relationships between others within a similar dynamic? I would think so.
Navigating these differing perspectives requires a willingness to listen combined with a healthy skepticism, both when engaging with the alleged perpetrator and the claimant. This skepticism is something that those captured by progressive movements often discourage or mislabel as ‘institutional’ or ‘structural’ issues when the response doesn’t wholly sympathize with their position. It’s interesting to me, however, how members of these different progressive groups find their individualism and skepticism when they become the institution that the next iteration of progressivism targets.
Very thoughtful comment. Thank you.
@@SolarJakee I agree that it is inappropriate and grounds for consideration for losing his job. Whether or not he “put up a fight before leaving“ seems subject to listener interpretation as I did not hear that. Regardless, I would still be skeptical of an assault claim just as I would be skeptical of any claims of propriety from the professor.
@@DeezScotts2023 i do hear you - but I would argue that a pretty important detail to pay attention too, is that he physically blocked her access to the exit, after she rejected his advance.
Simply not ok. That kind of behaviour is predatory and intimidating - not only considering the professional power differential, but arguably more importantly, the size and strength differential.
Making a sexual or romantic advance is not in and of itself predatory. Holding someone hostage to pressure them into capitulating is absolutely abhorrent.
@@meghan8020 she didn’t say that he blocked her access to the door. She said he stood between her and the door and then he eventually left. She did not express whether this was intentional on his part to block her exit or not. There’s a very good chance that she was more aware of his positioning than he was based off her fear. Or maybe not, and you are correct.
I want to add the caveat that I am not, in anyway, making an argument that she definitely wasn’t assaulted, because I’m allowing for what she didn’t say, what I’m misinterpreting, and what I simply don’t know. I’m simply trying to make a rational argument for the value of skepticism. I actually appreciate the vulnerability that she brings to this conversation and sympathize with the vulnerability she seems to have genuinely felt during this encounter. At the same time, however, I feel that her willingness to share the story comes at the price of others having to fully accept her version of the story without question or discussion of an opposing view. Even as Dr. Peterson attempted to empathize with the ‘double hit’ of the situation in relation to this moment undermining her educational pursuits, she felt it more important to clarify the purity of her immediate terror. Her expressing, at length, this existential terror of all-imagined possibilities of potential threat, all personified in this man - not based on what he WAS doing but based on what he might possibly COULD HAVE done - in concert with her past trauma encourages me to consider how this might inform her interpretation of the events.
And I may be WAAAAAAY off… but the exercise is important.
After a little research, I found that although Ms.Wolf says women today don't find men who can provide and protect them as attractive anymore because they can take care of themselves. Yet, she married a veteran she hired as security to protect her. She said herself, it is important for her husband to be competent, make money and provide.
Never listen to what a woman says. Always look at what she does.
Most of those who deny that masculinity is necessary rely on masculinity. It’s a common hypocrisy they practice.
So a typical wahman not knowing what she actually says or means. There were a couple times where she said something and I gagged bc of the narcissism.
@@mattv2223 Nothing she said brought any quality to this discussion, nothing was insightful, she did not add much value to this discussion... I was disappointed...
No surprise there. I know a woman who married a very wealthy real estate developer and spends much of her time advocating for Woke ideology and far-left causes. As long as she got HER rich husband, she's doing fine!!!
She is actually right when she talks about women - the problem is, she is referring to women in a position similar to her, high status, mostly rich women. That is not the case at all for the rest of the women, which is probably like 95% of women.
I doubt she's any richer than Dr. Peterson or anyone else who has authored several books. In a world with Elon Musk, Jeff Besos, hundreds of pop & rock singers living in luxury, neither of them is "rich". You are right, however, that most women are on the lower end of the socio-economic spectrum. Without actual stats, I'd be reluctant to make a claim as high as 95%, though. I mean, compared to every woman who even owns a home, I'm poor. I lived in a room in a woman's home for 13 years and I was in my '50s at the time. It was all I could afford. I've never owned a home, have been without a car once for 10 months, and a second time for 14 months, but I now have shelter, relative peace & freedom in my home, a phone, heat & AC, clean water, a variety of foods, healthcare, and even a 27-inch screen computer & high-speed internet. By modern American standards, I'm poor, but I have a life of more comfort than queens in earlier centuries, and I'm insanely wealthy compared to much of the world even today. Even our homeless people have more resources than the world's poor. So "rich" is a relative term and I don't think Naomi's net worth is anywhere near Kim Kardashian or Donald Trump, or Oprah or even far lesser celebrities. We value entertainment, sports, electronics & technology in our society more than we value non-fiction writers. She and Dr. Peterson are probably on the same socio-economic level,- married, owning a home, and authoring numerous books. There are millions more women who are in the service industry than are authors or college professors and there are more authors & college professors than titans on Wall Street or Silicon Valley. So she's privileged, but no more so than any other established author or college professor.
@DonnaBrooks Jordan is by any metric rich, he talks about his many businesses in one video
I am a feminist, and was a single mother. I can attest to the fact that a competent decent, protective man is a huge asset. We have not progressed much in terms of biological evolution. Our comfortable Western life can disappear in a heartbeat. The basic facts of life remain the same. Women are very foolish to discount the value of men. Naomi is coming from a very privileged and middle class perspective. 🤔
that's valid, but hardly universal.
@bashful228 what's not universal about having someone to keep the wolves away??
She also clearly doesn't understand the difference between biological and psychological drives evolved over millions of years and short term logical adaptations to modern material conditions.
You're a feminist yet want men to protect & provide.
Typical feminist. Only whine about "equality" when it suits you. Pathetic.
@@richardhudgens5180
And keeping the wolves away is right correct indeed..
The sort that walk upright on two legs is the worst kind.
Civil, polite, and considerate adults should be able to discuss things. Kudos to you both for doing this. Awesome!
Any adults should be able to as far as I’m concerned.
I thought there was good chemistry between them. I'd like to see future discussions.
@@danagadberry5129 Yes, they should but so many don't. Different opinions in a discussion frequently result in yelling and F.U.s
I feel that there were many missed opportunities for debate, but Jordan didn't push her at all... many of her assertions felt half baked at best!
@@keredeht Exactly. You could tell when the BS was about to come out of her mouth when she prefaced it with "Respectfully, but"; followed by assertions without solid evidence.
Absolutely brilliant conversation! I had expected these two to be at each other's throats, but instead they each seemed to listen and learn from one another. What a great interview!
And an example of how all strangers with differing opinions should communicate. That's how civilized people converse with one another.
He didn't ask the hard questions!
Both have had their careers derailed by extremists who call themselves liberals.
@@Inteligento He did twice, she avoided answering them
@@Inteligentoso sexual assult isn't difficult subject matter?
Amazing conversation to witness. Two brilliant people, not necessarily aligned, but unbelievably willing to risk exposure of their past, and talking with each other to find a better understanding of the human phenomenon. If only this were more common! BRAVO!
I would make one correction. She refers to her upbringing as "middle class". Even back then growing up in SF with both parents as professors and you attend Yale doesn't sound like middle class America. I think Ms. Wolf says she grew up middle class as many liberals do to avoid feeling they were part of the group they argued against. She was upper class at the least.
If I recall correctly there was a time, and not very long ago, when college professors were very poorly paid. Especially compared to the huge salaries they are now. It became thought that more money to colleges would improve the college education. It seems to me that is now disproven. Though I suspect they are given bonuses to preach the desired woke agenda.
2 professor home is upper middle class in expensive San Francisco, and well off in ordinary towns.
Marlin, I began teaching in 1976 full time. Professors I knew in college always had nice homes. Sure the first 5 years the pay is not so high but after that it is good. The things you have to realize is she was in a 2 professor familY. A single professor could support a family. I am 72. I always owned a home. Even in the first job teaching in 1976.
Professors in my small town at a branch PSU campus had to drive to surrounding towns to pick up extra classes to teach to survive. One professor bought a used to off a friend. I really think the definition of middle class changes from town to town city to city. I was raised on 1 parent making 30,000$/ year. I was definitely one of the 'richer' people in my town. But middle class is probably a stretch since 67,000$ is poverty in PA 🤷🏻♂️
I'm sure it is different depending on where you are. And I'm sure it has improved a bunch. In 1970 I heard of some professors at colleges and there salaries were quite moderate. Then in the early 2000's I knew a man that was hired to teach one course for 250k... at least that's what his wife said. That was in a wealthy college in a nearby town.
What were the percentage of women in Victorian England that wore hoop skirts? What is the percentage of single mothers in 21st century England today that can hire a housekeeper and a nanny and be successful in business as Wolf posits? Wolf speaks to a fraction of women. She ignores the majority of society, but respectfully apologizes. Wolf has had some of the scales taken from her eyes, but she has still not come down from her elitist pedestal.
-Mr EntryReqrd
I think most Leftists that have become a bit more disturbed about how our society is developing still do t quite see the bigger picture and still don't understand themselves. They see that the Left is going off the rails and will harm society and therefore harm the Tribe they represent, but they haven't realized that the foundations of Progressivism of Post-modernism and equal outcome will always lead to disaster.
The Mahers and Wolffs of this world want to roll back the Progressive movement so their sacred cows can be saved but no further. But it's like asking a woman to be half pregnant.
Or more interestingly: who is going to babysit the babysitters children?
It's a process.
1:30:17 why is a woman talking about what men find attractive? Is she “allowed” to do that?
@@ten_tego_teges The babysitters won't have children because they have been brainwashed to believe bringing more humans into the world is how they should fight to save the planet from climate change.
Dr. Peterson is still teaching college level material. Now it’s just to a lot bigger audience than he ever had at university of Toronto
Yes!
@@Serraainc No!
She is one of those people who pushed culture along to what it is today.
Look around. Not a compliment.
@@denizenofclownworld4853 who said I meant it as a compliment??? 🤦♂️🤣🤣🤣
She was at the forefront (and some argue the originator) of third wave feminism. Now the left has thrown her under the bus for merely being against covid vaccines.
Wolf is a toxic waste dump
The same could be sadly said about the tyrannical dictators of the past
This has been a stimulating and engaging discussion. While I appreciate Naomi's intelligence, I can't help but notice that her statements and perspectives appear to be rooted in a retrospective analysis of history, where she selectively attributes historical events to conform to her pre-existing ideas.
Beautifully said
Yes I agree with you. The part where she says her housband is younger than her (and she possibly thinks he will never leave her for a younger more attractive woman)
She thinks women with money are attractive in the eyes of men, the same way women find material security attractive. Confirmation and reaffirmation bias deluxe
Let us not forget that that exact intellectual shortcoming is why she wrote a book a few years ago on how so many homosexual men had been executed in England in the 19th century or whatever it was, only to then be told she'd misunderstood all of the court records she'd based her book on. She should not be heard from again, yet here she is, yet again, as a failed "leftie" now attempting to maintain financial viability in right-leaning media.
sorry but all i hear from her is: i went to parties with CHAD, chad touched me because he's chad and he knew he can do it.... This is not "rape culture" and all the bullshit she spews! If you go hang out in the worst neighborhood at 3 am you can't cry you're getting mugged!
I could be wrong on my interpretation of your comment, but I believe the terminology you are looking for is “, where she handpicks specific historical events to conform to her pre-existing ideologies”. Not trying to be the grammar police here, rather; I just wanted to make sure I am understanding your message correctly!
Superb Naomi Wolf "hand over all your rights and we can save you from this existential threat" A really good sentence to describe what has been happening in the past few years
This from the woman who practically invented the college kangaroo courts for men accused of assault?
She's got a lot to live down, before she can be hailed as a hero.
"well I can imagine that because that has happened to me". Although you went through a path that you didn't originally plan for, I am eternally grateful that you had the courage to stand on your principle. You are a beacon of light and have shown many the way
Thank you Naomi Wolf for respectfully making this into something other than an echo chamber. It was great to hear an actual debate.
Freedom of speech always leads to HEALTHY debate and discourse. NOT censorship and control.
Can we have more of this type of discourse please. It’s what the world needs
Two frauds lying to each other while preening for the camera? Please. Jordan Peterson is just a modern televangelist and Naomi Wolf should have been hurled out the back of a Pinochet helicopter before she left college.
As Dr P says...the Left wont discuss.
👆 Let talk on telegram........................
As long as facts don't matter you will get more than enough conversation on any topic you desire.
I love her response when asked why she agreed to the interview. "Why wouldn't I?" Oh, if only more leftists were so receptive.
I thought she came across as rude towards Dr. Peterson in that moment and I'm a woman.
@@td6259 Rude in what way?
@@elichabassol5238passive aggressive maybe? She seemed like she had an ulterior motive and “oh why wouldn’t I” was her front
It could be perceived that way
@@tristenmarten9578 I can see what you mean, but it isn't the vibe I got, especially since she seemed sincere in the rest of the interview.
Wow, what a valuable dialogue to share. Two great minds at times disagreeing, at times converging and at all times willing to hear the other one out.
This is brilliant, I could have never imagined a Peterson/Wolf conversation like this.. well done for meeting up and building common ground.
I would have imagined nothing but civility. Was blessed by being raised in a cave with my brother and Saintly Da.
Dr. Peterson is so respectful. I learned to trust my instincts as a child. Not all obstacles in our path are caused by others.
Yes… Because he listens to a reasonable person.
Good for you. That's a amazing skill not enough people have (trusting their instincts). I believe we all attract the obstacles and the bliss. 💖
If so, you were fortunate. I also trusted my instincts. But others were always trying to gaslight me away from trusting myself.
@@eyeswideopenpod I believe that children who are molested didn't attract it. I believe the people who perished on 9/11 didn't attract it.
How about you? What do you believe?
Her points asides....I like how she's able to disagree while still maintaining civility.
she's definately an intelectual..however she did seem a bit hostile in the beginning but Jordon effectivley disarmed her by finding common ground which wasn't given easily but was achieved nonetheless....
Yeah... that can be quite hard, especially at the beginning.
But JP has faced more aggressive persons so I'm sure he's quite familiar with handling such interactions
Agreed. Reasonableness is a huge step away from being a programmed Leftist zombie. Her being rejected by her own after challenging the Leftist status quo must have woken her up big time and maybe even taught her humility, a characteristic sorely lacking among feminists.
@@seyitaiwoireoluwa718 Huh? Some of the unconscious sexism in comments is ...just.....eye roll.
@@soulthriver-oz6470 does the sky offend you to?
The important thing to note here is not the nuanced errors of either Dr Peterson or Dr wolf. The stand out thing here is the fact that they undertook a fascinating and complex conversation with mutual respect. Bravo, I listened to the whole piece.
This is the best intellectual discussion I’ve ever watched. And I seek these things. I have many take-aways for my own life, and you both challenged me to think deeper about many things. Thank you Naomi and Jordan. Please keep up your works and vigor.
Really? Damn...
You should you go to the library sometime and read some books... You'd be amazed.
If that's the case, you need to watch a lot more! I'd give this discussion a 3 out of 10.
@@mysterioanonymous3206 reading a book is not a dialogue
Go find the conversation between JP and Camille Paglia.
@@anomietoponymie2140 so, what are your standards? Why don't you think this was a good discussion? curious
Apart from everything else Jordan, you've demonstrated in this interview, what a true gentleman you are!!!!
He always does.❤
She couldn’t admit that her experiences tilted her views on basically everything… but kudos to her for actually having a decent and calm conversation
it was jarring how many times she proposed her own idea as though it was characteristic of humanity everywhere... SMDH
@@captainmaimagreed.. I would say I still respect her, but after listening to this the level is diminished
Exactly. Most leftists are trying to deflect their lack of personal control on to anything else. Alcoholics do that always.
Technically, that is true of us all though, right?
@@Dave-um7mwspot on. It is easy for us to see biases and fallacious reasoning in others, but more difficult to acknowledge that we all harbor such tendencies.
The parts of the podcast where you disagreed with each other were the most insightful in my opinion. It's a shame these kind of discussions don't happen anymore in our society. Thank you very much Naomi and Jordan.
Naomi does have a point about how times are changing in terms of what men find attractive. I am married now, but I do remember that even five years ago, before we met, how many men's profiles specifically listed "ambition" as a quality they were looking for in a woman. I personally found it very offputting, because to me it was a red flag that they expected a woman to take on a substantial provider role, on top of the usual expectations of childbearing and rearing, as well as the myriad of other nurturing roles and tasks that we inevitably take on. But its definitely a very common expectation from younger men in the dating world today, according to my friends and family who are still single. It may be a social adaptation to the modern phenomenon of two parent working families. When a significant proportion of the family income will be provided by the woman, it perhaps follows that her earning capacity becomes more important to the man, as it will impact the family's overall access to resources. I know a few female friends who initially bought into this expectation as a feminist ideal, but now regret it as they are realising the unfair "double expectation" that it places upon them in the relationship. It wouldn't be so bad, perhaps, if traditional female tasks were split equally, but as study after study shows, they almost never are, in spite of some mens best intentions. Add to that the biological realities of childbearing and the fact that the rearing of very young infants usually needs to be perfomed mostly by women, and it all starts to unravel quickly.
Ive actually read horror online posts from women who proudly insisted on 50/50 relationships, to the point of saving to cover their own half of their maternity leave, then finding themselves running short of money and having their husbands callously exclude them from certain things like travel or socialising because they "couldnt pay their fair share". This is doubly concerning given the complete imbalance between the physical, mental and emotional investment required from men and women to bring a child into the world. I think that this expectation of women to be equal providers is one of the most unfortunate and unfair outcomes of feminism, that actually results in significant disadvantages for us. It's not freedom, it's just a different form of servitude.
she is a far leftist matriarch.🤨
Excellent comments. Agree with you.
Feminists coveted mens lives or at least what they perceived their lives to be. In so doing, neglected the realm of womanhood. Turned its back on the traditional role of mother, wife and the making of a home. Feminism and its begrudging admiration of the realm of men, meant simply that we are now in a society which can't even articulate what a woman even is. Women and children pay the price and men are erroneously blamed.
That is the result of feminists pushing to feminize men. Young Boys are bullied by a system run by women (education and childcare) to behave like women. Men have been completely pushed out of the process because they're "toxic." Now women are miserable because they're dating and ever more rarely marrying useless men who think and act like childish girls. Feminism aka Female Socialism is about destroying male/female relationships.
Maybe you married the wrong man...
I’m 73. Never been raped . As a little girl two separate fast encounters with men touching me . I didn’t live in fear of men perhaps because the men in my life were virtuous, strong men. I recognized early to stay away from parties/ dances/ dates and 25:41 concerts where drinking, immodesty, and inappropriate sexual behavior was going on. I dated many young men and only once did I have to leave due to unwanted advances. I attended dances weekly with teens and young adults who were members of my church. I sought out people who had my standards.
@Kyra-bb2inyes, I wouldn’t blame Naomi, but it scares me when all these college age gals get completely drunk at bars, but they are seeking those relationships. I don’t drink, very foolish behavior.
Amen.
I think it might a difference in generation. I am guessing at 73 you have seen a lot, but you may not have been through a social contagion that gave you points for being a victim regardless of whether you were actually victimized or not. I can't say for certain, but if I were a betting man, I'd say she would have had the same story had she restricted her socializing to the church dances. I mean, supposedly she wrote many a book that were bestsellers.... And her career was ruined by a thigh touch that went unreported in 30 years but comes out in a 'me too' time frame. I don't know her, but from this, I doubt there is much veracity in her accusations.
The central reason I never got raped was because my father had a gun. It was known he would use it.
The number of people who have confided in me that they were raped is staggering. Literally every beautiful woman I have ever known has been molested or raped, no exceptions, and often in childhood.
If you believe that bad things cannot happen to good people, all I can say to you is remember 9/11.
Only female I've ever heard that wasn't raped at some point
"Men make women wear clothes they hate..." No, other women do that....
Her thinking is so warped...
Women cannot be responsible for their own shortcomings. It always has to be a mans fault.
As a woman, I recognize this as 100% true. We mostly dress for one another. Many of us harshly judge the fashion choices of other females in a way we never do to men. There's a reason why men who are overly into fashion & their looks are typically seen as effeminate. It's a female trait to be overly concerned with one's appearance. Time for women to take responsibility for this inherent trait of our sex.
Women are never responsible for anything that happens to them. They never wanted equal rights. They want MORE rights than everyone.
Yes. She thinks all women think like her. She is what makes so many women unhappy. She wants to be the Man. She is the Man. She's got the young husband with a big weiner that will leave her or simply cheat as she seems to advise women.
Great that a Leftist gets the Covid thing right, but if women should listen to Peterson if they want to be happy. He has a daughter he obviously cares deeply about and I bet he shares similar wisdom with her as with all women. Wolfe is what many women think they want to be and then when they are 58 and lonely they think it's great that a man picks up the dinner check on occasion.
Men mostly don’t care what we wear.
I went back to school in my late 40's early 50's to augment my writing abilities, and my critical and cultural theory (literary criticism) class was absolutely the best university class I have ever taken! It opened my eyes to so many more perspectives in life....highly recommend it to anyone :)
This is why not many “left leaning” individuals don’t make for good interviews in my opinion. Pompous, victims and clearly unaware beyond their own story. We have all been through tragedy, it’s more impressive to move beyond, versus to reignite it to help justify your insecurities. The world is cruel and keeps turning, better to move on then turn it into a drama infused broken record.
Yes, they are privileged in so many ways, and one way is to use their privilege to show how to move beyond the victimhood and recover. They have access to financial advice, the best psychology and material wealth - food, clothing and shelter are not an issue while they recover. And yet they play victim, instead of saying "this worked for me, let me share the psychological tricks I learned that you (poor) don't have access to. That's what Jordan Petersen does, and that's why he is so liked. His start wasn't rosy, and Bill C16 was one heck of a curve ball.
Not many left leaning individuals don't make for good interviews?
Who is this pompous victim, clearly unaware beyond their own story?
And where is this reignition of tragedy; what are the insecurities that you're alluding to and what do you mean by moving on, since all your words are not really connected to anything specific.
It's better to actually communicate something concrete rather than lashing out at something unmentioned.
It should be clear to you that I'm not leaning one way or the other since you haven't even stated the position that you're against.
And by the way, that first sentence doesn't even make sense.
I think leftists are lovesick / addicted to victimhood. They lose their meaning of life if they leave it behind.
I have so much respect the way they LISTEN to each other and ask curious questions to clarify their own understanding of what the other person is saying.
Intelligent people tend to listen
@@theredboneking well he wasnt anonymous :P
She strawmanned and reacted to false interpretation of countless things he stated, i wouldnt call that understanding in the slighest. He asks a psychological question and then she acts as if that meant abuse is not a criminal act... its subtle yet constant. I assure you he will never talk to her again.
I attended a world-class university and worked with two internationally acclaimed scholars, both of whom were abusive and cruel. This particular university was Balkanized into little fiefdoms, and each of these professors held court over their territory. They were immune to criticism and they behaved badly and with impunity. Needless to say, it derailed my work. Wolf is talking about a very serious problem at the university level, wherein prominent scholars believe they are god, and they are treated as such. I had a strong undergraduate and graduate education, it wasn't until I pursued doctoral studies at this acclaimed university, that i realized how sick and pathological these professors can be. Universities have become havens for psychopaths.
I wonder why men never get to complain about the sh-t they get put through. Naomi has had a privileged blessed life where she even gets to tell her unhappy victimization. MOST people don't. They suck it up and are left to deal with it without millions of dollars and privileged access to compensate. I am sick of privilege women whining who they didn't get to live an entitled life,
Your response is a bit unhinged. This first commenter is speaking of professors being immune to criticism and being able to be abusive and how the hell is being raped as a child a priviledged life? Were you raped at age 9, WTF is wrong with you? Even money can't make up for that type of pain. I'd say your views on ppl who might have a family with money and access to education--mind you another place where she describes needing to get to the door, give her a priviledged life. What type of actual rape have you experienced. There's a whiner here and I think it's you.
I am very surprised to learn how abusive these liberal institutions of higher learning are
Is Wolf part of this? Her "climate crisis" book seems to have encouraged many lefties to behave as obnoxious a-holes - "spewing out" accusations of fascist, climate denier, racist with machine gun rapidity. It's as if the index of one's Leftism today is marked by how many such accusations, and how few rational arguments one is able to generate.
PS: "spewing out" - I appreciate the hypocrisy here. It's intentional. It's their phrase.
@@ellasoes8325 I had a similar reaction to her story of the "hardship" she endured being "objectified" in the university system when she wanted to be successful for her academic prowess. At first, it seemed plausible, and Peterson's reaction was interesting. He nodded along, but I could see that he was withholding clear assent.
I also thought that most of the world would, if given the choice, take that particular "hardship" over the ones they've actually suffered. That would include many women, but especially men who have been utterly betrayed and destroyed, and, moreover, had their plight dismissed by society. "Do us a favour, and p--- off quietly".
If I were a handsome, academically successful man I am sure would get female attention to the point that it was a nuisance, with all of it along the lines of "I love you for who you are", but I couldn't get a successful book out of "The Alpha-Male Myth. Woe is me". Apart from the "nuisance" of all the attention, I could also write of the more serious problem of women using sex to trap me with pregnancy or a fake charge, and could write of just how "threatening" I found all that to be. In recent times, I could even write of the danger of NOT responding to the invitations, and fearing the fake charge anyway. I can't imagine getting much sympathy for how difficult I found very -real danger that to be.
Excellent. I would love to see additional respectful and argumentative discussions. It’s very difficult to find that today.
Dr. Peterson..you are not only a Canadian treasure...but a global treasure ..these podcasts are an exceptional educational opportunity for us all especially as they discuss ethical issues and the struggles of life. An exceptional counterweight to our current political quagmire at the federal level of governance.
To learn about Marxism search Democracy at Work Prof Richard Wolff
She's still living in a dream world. The difference in modern times since feminism is that men and women are now in competition (incidentally because of the civilisation that men built), whereas before for millions of years they have been in partnership by necessity. Unfortunately what she hasn't realised is that competition isn't conducive to a productive intimate relationship between two people, and men want to compete with their mates and other men, not with their partner.
@@theredbonekingThe good old days weren't so good for anyone, not just women. Ask the nameless male foot soldiers slaughtered on the battlefield, lost at sea, or crushed in collapsing mines.
@@theredbonekingYour point being? Doesn't change the validity of my comment.
@@theredboneking I agree. "The good ol days" is a myth.
Younger men attracted to older women with money??? LO-effin-L !!!
Naomi, please don't project when trying to make a point.
Younger males who are attracted to older women with money ARE NOT "MEN".
Any "Man" knows this. And any male who marries an older woman for money will eventually find himself unhappy, worthless and without purpose....
Go back to your drawing board Naomi, and leave your poetry out of it because your using your poetry to make your ideals more attractive - your putting lipstick on a pig.
She has the views of someone who has lead a pampered life with few consequences. Completely ignorant to how the real world works. It's a common affliction. A big reason people love Trump is he really does think like a blue collar working man. A very rare thing in people who have had a rather easy life.
In her opening remarks, she really hit the nail on the head: classical liberal, with "classical" being the operative term. Our founders were classical liberals; these days we refer to ourselves as libertarians, while the term "liberal' has been misappropriated by the intolerant totalitarian Marxists. We need to reclaim the term and show what today's so-called "liberals" really are.
naomi is a marxist nutter!🤨
Except she’s not even close to being a classical liberal.
Exactly!! In America we use the term conservative different than globally. Conservatism from a global perspective is autocratic, authoritarian, theist, etc. Japan before WWII, the middle east, etc. but in reality the most conservative Americans are by global standards incredibly liberal. Contrary to the American left seeing the Constitution as ultra conservative, it is in fact incredibly radical & progressive from a global & historical perspective. Conservatives & libertarians in America are in fact radically liberal from again, global & historic perspectives. Progressives are collectivists, authoritarians, Marxist, and today 100% fascist. People love to talk about right wing authoritarianism but that is projection. The only so called right wing authoritarianism is from evangelicals. Not all. Only a minority. But the fanatical evangelicals who are not true conservatives. They are collectivist theists & authoritarian. They are quite progressive politically, but are neocons and primarily vote Republican for cultural issues.
They don't call themselves liberal. The call themselves "progressive" - a phrase beloved of intolerant totalitarians.
I agree. Although I'd never refer to myself as Libertarian (so don't speak for all of us), I refuse to surrender the words "liberal" & "progressive" to people & ideologies that are so ILliberal & REgressive! We have got to push back on that if we want to persuade those who have been duped by this ideology who still CAN be persuaded with reason & critical thinking. Many liberals in our society just weren't paying attention & we had our echo chamber, too, as does the Right. But new information led me to change my beliefs & positions re a number of issues & to question still other opinions I've had. I know there are other people out there who are still reachable.
Wrapping up, finally to the issue again in the last 7 minutes after a master class in listening to not only what the other is saying but to where the conversation is at. Absolutely amazing that this was achieved. Not sure if it was that educational but it sure can help someone talking to themselves to deconstruct the infinite angles a topic produces. That many people are able to split hairs in production of a greater understanding of the whole.
I'm always amazed at how quickly people like to throw evolutionary psychology away due to 'times changing'. Times may change quickly, but genetics do not. And there's an insane amount of literature showing just how much of our lives are driven by genetics.
It’s a stupid thing to attribute all human nature to evolution. We’re adaptive! Why are people not killing each others although it was the norm for hundreds of thousands years?
Exactly. That's the reason it's called 'evolutionary' biology. The consequences unfold over centuries/millennia.
Exactly. I thought she totally missed the point on that.
One word: epigenetics
Genes evolve over time via interactions with the environment and experiences.
Its easy to forget about the plumber when everything in your building is working fine. Then you think you can get rid of the plumber, and everything goes to shit.. literally.
This discussion shows Dr. Peterson's skills as a psychotherapist: respectful, reflective listening, and allowing the person to explore her thoughts and feelings without blaming and shaming.
This lays down the foundation for positive change and is educational on both sides.
Such positive exchange is much more positive and informative when it goes both ways, which it did not here and never does with feminists.
The scream queens have gotten their way for decades by using force to shut down open debate.
She certainly needs therapy from the way she's been mistreated.
Would that she'd gotten it before pushing insanity into The Narrative(TM) that the Left keeps chanting.
He was taking on the role of therapist and friend here but not calling out the BS. But that's fine too.
All Peterson fans need therapy. Urgently.
All the comment sections of Peterson's social media pages are proof.
@@LarsTragel-zh7ei What makes you say that, other than tribal affiliation?
Well said! I am always so encouraged by your words and comments of hard truths and generosity of sharing your knowledge. Your an inspiration!
I cannot say how refreshing and enlightening it to sit and talk, disagree, agree and still TALK. I will have to look into Dr. Wolf's work, I am not familiar with it, but she was so interesting to listen to that now I am intrigued about her work.
It is interesting: I made similar arguments in my MEd program years ago regarding the farming families compared to industrial / urban families regarding the value of "women's work" . I would add - my grandmother was able to take wool from a freshly shorn sheep and turn it into socks via carding / spinning / knitting. She could make lye soap. She could cook on a wood fired kitchen stove. Her skills were remarkable, and priceless, for keeping her family alive.
With all do respect, your grandmother was not born in silver plate; hence, she had to "develop" set of skills out of necessity and got at it to support her family!!! this woman was born in a "silver plate" and she cannot survive a day in the middle of the main park in Orange County in Southern California!!!!
👆 Let talk on telegram........................
At the risk of sounding a bit inflammatory, for the first half of the discussion, what I hear is a woman who is committed to being a victim. Dr Peterson is asking very forthright questions, and she continues to come back to her deep wound, which is her compass.
My life has not played itself out the way I would like, and there has been more than my share of betrayals but the ‘cross’ that this woman bears is overwhelming to me suggests a lack of healthy peace with the matter.
Having made that statement, I am grateful for her thoughts and perspective and relieved to hear that she has made the shift and sees the shocking behaviour of the far left.
Yes. Jordan was clearly trying to be respectful & sensitive but she seemed to go straight on defense &, at points, being rather disrespectful & certainly dismissive.
He seeks to understand but it felt she sought validation?
Maybe I’m wrong but it made for an uncomfortable watch.
Unhealed stuff coming out
@@AP-tb2ri I got threatened at college bout 4 times a year and walked around with a knife in my backpocket constantly waiting for 'the day' that those fucks would be waiting around the corner with all his little cowardly friends. I have since them always had an negative emotional knee jerk response to similar looking people to the mongrels in my school, it's been about 5 years and it still happens.
Some fears do not diminish.
just to play devils advocate here
I have to say, She sure does harp on about the evil of this man who victomized her. And yet, she ran and hid rather than stand up and confront the guy. And in doing so allowed him to continue to victimize women for further three decades before he finally died. But she is just so put upon...
Having been a victim of childhood rape, sometimes you ARE a victim and there are some things one just cannot "get over". In a world where everyone is traumatized because a bug landed on them, please remember, trauma is real. I'm sure your comment is not meant to be inflammatory but might I suggest you NOT say to your daughters. I'm better now. But some memories still haunt me all these many decades later. From a Christian POV, my experience is my thorn in the flesh. However, God's grace has been more than sufficient for me. ❤
No wonder she is such a good writer. I didn’t realize literature was her first love and background, and that she was also a poet. Truly, her writing is outstanding, and an absolute pleasure to read.
😂
I really enjoyed this conversation. Much obliged! Big love to all! ❤
What an unbelievably civil conversation... So rare in this day and age. Kudos❤
It’s because they’re both higher educated intellectuals!!! This is how people normally converse!!!
It’s bc Jordan didn’t push back on her poorly researched claims. He knew there wasn’t much intellectual gold to dig for. He uses studies to reason, she uses anecdotes of her own life.
Except when it came to covid issues, which they didn’t discuss here but should have. Her takes on those issues are backed by reasonably strong evidence.
I was disappointed Peterson didn't challenge her on the differences in evolutionary sex drives of men and womyn.
👆Let talk on telegram
I am amazed how receptive this conversation made me about a problem feminists were pointing out in my own country. I guess this is what happens when we respectfully sit and listen each other instead of trying to make a point and being a mouthpiece of our own ideologies.
Thank you, professor. I have learned a little more how to be better today.
I think the lady thus protest to much
Seeing comments like this makes my day!
Totally!
@@harrying882 doth
Would you mind me asking where your country is?
I really thoroughly enjoyed this conversation between these two.
They may not agree on a lot of things, but it was disagreement without being disagreeable.
I am not a psychologist, and dont play one on TV, so I cannot speak to the truth on some of their thoughts. Both listened to each other, which was incredible.
This conversation has restored my faith in humanity.❤❤❤ Thank you both. Much love from Canada🇨🇦
You're too easy to please😂😂😂😂
It's difficult to properly steer a conversation like this with people that are naturally defensive due to their experiences and ideologies. Kudos to Jordan.
Not everything with which you disagree is an ideology! There are real ideologies today (like trans ideology). Let's not throw that word around until it loses its power and meaning, the way the words, "narcissist," and "trauma" have been thrown around.
Also, I don't think she came across as defensive. Disagreement is not defensiveness.
Listening to these amazing conversations has become a bit of an addiction. Thank you both!!!!
What is most attractive in a person is intellectual honesty. Listening to someone and being intellectualy honest and responding with a well thought out response is hard work, but anything less is a waste of time.
He shoes such incredible restraint when she veers into “young men now find old ladies attractive” territory. It’s a wild assertion that he doesn’t bite on. Incredible!
Yes that was genuinely laughable. This lady is neither honest, or an intellectual.
why he didn't though???
She obviously getting leeched on by an Alpha male gold digger.
@@al-imranadore1182 because everybody already knows. She has obviously arrived at that opinion through her own experience so pointing out that that is a 0.01% exception to a concrete rule is not likely to repair her insanity.
I don't necessarily agree with the fact that Men are out looking for women who are successful and will provide for them but as a 47-year-old woman I can tell you that when on a dating site 80% of the men that reach out to me are in their 20s and 30s.... Of course some of them just want to sleep with an older woman but there are genuinely a good percentage of them that prefer older women. Some of them have just said that they can't stand how a lot of younger women are these days... Nonsensical and too far left so they have had to look outside of their own age group. So yes it is true just maybe not for the reasons she stated
Jordan Peterson (obviously as hes a clinical psychologist and as others have already stated) quickly realized that Naomi clearly has some deep seeded issues towards men. So rather than turning this into a savage eminem battle rap of sorts, spitting relevant data and weaving it into his verses lol. He treated Naomi extremely respectfully and took almost a therapists approach, rather than treating her overly paranoid "young men at college are mostly rapists which is why rape is the norm" ideas as madness that needs to be confronted.
Excellent post. You said what I felt without really knowing it. The personal horror stories at the start completely changed the interview. Where she gets this rape college culture nonsense from is beyond me. If it were true, women would not drink and not dress half as revealing as they do. Women talk.
@@michaelfern4079 Where she gets it is the old feminist motto: "make the personal political"
Where are you people hearing this? She talked about the impunity powerful men had at Yale in the 1980s. The woman will be sixty this year. (Right, she looks much younger.)
What I find interesting is that it was Naomi Wolf who demanded accountability and consequences for bad acts, and somehow she is getting dismissed. When Dr. Peterson points out how important accountability is, and brushes aside excuses, everyone praises him.
Why is that?
This was not a therapy session, by the way. Wolf is an immensely accomplished person and even went back to school late in life to complete her doctorate, at OXFORD. She also resisted the COVID hysteria. And her husband is a veteran. Sounds to me like a truly successful life. If someone like that can still feel what it was like to be a vulnerable, idealistic, naive teen at Yale, in awe of all the famous people there who turned out to have feet of clay, then maybe that really is a big deal?
When Dr. Peterson's wife became ill, he himself had a problem, with prescribed drugs. You don't hold that against him, do you? Then why this?
I was thinking this too, but you stated it nicely.
@@l.w.paradis2108 Dr Peterson encourages people to take responsibility. Not to use victimhood as an excuse.
Wow, really enjoyed the reciprocity of this discussion. A great example of the value of seeking to understand differing viewpoints.
Such a great chat! She is like myself, and so many other people I know do used to be left and then things just went so far left. I always appreciate you Jordan. I am a woman, amongst the 25% on RUclips. You’ve helped straighten me up to the degree that I can be. Got be back to thinking about the importance of life, down to the meaning
What the so-called left didn't realize - and still doesn't - that they crossed a philosophical Rubicon a long time ago, when they abandoned actual liberalism and gave the state responsibility for everything, while still expecting to have authority over their own lives. That's not how it works. If you want authority, you must first take responsibility. When you give up responsibility, you give up authority. There's no two ways about it.
Now, confronted by the beast they've created, they're STILL not asking the right questions or for the right things. They want the all-powerful state to operate morally and without error. They're still not doubting their decision to make the state responsible for everything under the sun. It's a death spiral of giving too much power to a few and then being endlessly shocked and disappointed at the results. I see no way out. It's a delusion that feeds on itself until everybody's absolutely miserable, and the whole thing collapses, with little hope of ever getting anywhere close to where you were before you started handing over more and more power to the state.
Kudos to Dr Wolf! Anyone who's willing to sit down and have a courteous, reasonable chat with someone they're not guaranteed to agree with is OK in my book.
She represents such a tiny minority, it won't make any difference.
Besides, her and/or her supporters will not listen to this whole thing, they'll watch clips that misrepresent things said.
By the time she's been "corrected" and called out, all her people will have moved on to the next issue.
The same thing has been happening for most of a decade, there's only one way left to "convince" these people that they're wrong.
Even opinions can be objectively wrong, and they hide behind the opinion excuse all the time.
@@davejones9469 Do you realize how much you sound like Hillary Clinton with your massive projection? (How did that b---- get to have the influence she did, to the point where people imitate her _all the time?_ Still a mystery to me.)
@@davejones9469 I think you missed the part that she is now treated as an outsider in the feminist movement after she challenged the establishment. Her supporters, if you can call them that, are people who believe in her right to free speech. In a world where people are starting to wake up to the programming of their minds and opinions, we need to be patient and welcoming to them since Unity would be the ultimate way that humans could defy their crazy controllers. Make space in your heart brother.
@@TheNotsoignorant I admit, I go too far sometimes but mostly because of how much the whole new wave feminism shit has messed with my life, and ruined the lives of people I knew. It gets personal, and as for this, I just couldn't even take even the vocabulary seriously (amongst other things) and so couldn't properly listen to the whole thing.
I always try to judge on an individual basis, and I didn't give this girl a fair shake before passing judgment. It was definitely bad timing for that video to have started on auto play too.
Anyhow, you're right. People need to be brought back into the fold, but on an individual basis.
On the other hand, I think there are some people, from both sides (more left than right) who've gone too far and don't deserve that kindness.
Wonderful that she took the time and spoke with Peterson. But her total ideological capture in the myth of the woman was laughable. She didn't back up any of her claims regarding men and women from the evolutionary biology and psychological perspective. The main thrust of her argument was that apparently no PhD's have asked women what they want in a man. *Chuckle*
What an amazing exchange. So interesting and refreshing. Please pick it up in a second or third... I SO MUCH enjoyed listening to two pundits or the "opposite" sex and socio political orientation. THANK YOU!
I say, she automatically gets respect points for showing up on the show in good will. And in the spirit of productive conversation.
So pleasantly surprised with this interview... Naomi comes across as a very genuine person and was very respectful to Dr. Peterson... this is what the world needs: civil exchanges where both people listen to each other's stories and points of view - we can learn so much that way! Bravo to both of you!!!🙏💜😇
👆Let talk on telegram
The problem is the the left doesn’t want to set down and discuss anything and everyone needs to understand this. You see that in the Biden not willing to discuss, take questions and so own. They are not interested in your ideas. The tack is just to shut you down. So the only answer is take a stand every day.
U call that respectful…wow, hardly. JP was much more polite and respectful.
respectfully, *where both people...
@@Astarkiller I counted at least five times where he cut her off in the middle of her replies to his queries. I love j.p. but he needs to let his guests fully expound on their thoughts before jumping in with his responses and where his train of thought goes.
Everyone kissing her ass for being civilized really shows how low the bar is. So many of her talking points were ridiculous and I couldn't stop myself from scoffing at multiple instances throughout the interview. I would make a counter for how many times she said "with respect..." and proceeded to say something disrespectful and dumb with incredible confidence, but then I'd have to listen to this again.
Yeah she’s honestly quite rude
@@liljes34 I don't think stating her perspective in disagreement is rude, she's just wrong and blind to her biases.
@@electricelephant7471 I personally found her to be rude
Sometimes you may have to risk being a little rude to communicate your ideas. She wasn’t being outright hostile
She wasn't even remotely rude. It was a great conversation where she was being polite to someone she respects. It was a demonstration of the lost art of using manners. They were both well versed on the topics and exchanged ideas and viewpoints. Nothing more, nothing less. Always those who will clamor to find something... just one thing as a negative take-away to bolster some kind of prowess - a lame one at that. Must be a mini neolib thread here. Maybe head over to an AOC twitter thread to share in that misery.
HIS FACE WHEN SHE GOES ON A TANGANT OF BULLSHIT IS PRICELESS!
🤣🤣
You know, this explains so much of the nonsense that The Narrative(TM) pushes out on a regular basis -- "campus r*pe culture", utterly absurd assault statistics, and the like.
Naomi Wolf had a bad experience, and she's generalizing it to parts of the country it just simply doesn't apply. Thank you, Dr. Peterson, for helping us find the explanation for otherwise baffling public discussions.
I don't doubt her description of the culture at the time the problem is that it's not no longer like that (which doesn't mean we shouldn't remain vigilant but we should also not give false impressions or allow false accusations to be enforced).
This is one of the best episode. The conversation, disagreement, explanation, similarity, and respect. This is very educational. The mini-debate is soooooo goooood.🎉🎉
She is very naive and takes everything personal.
I love this conversation. She is the first guest to really push back on what Dr Peterson takes as fact, but was civilized about it. Fantastic discourse!
👆Let talk on telegram
My thoughts exactly. People have forgotten how to have real discussions this is an excellent primer.
I wonder how much recent changes in how humans behave can counteract tens of thousands of years of behavioural programming? She may be right that the primacy of this programming is being changed, but simply labeling it outdated seems premature. I personally as a male match exactly to Peterson's description of selecting sideways and down financially (because I was choosing based on looks not security). I do find that her modern beliefs coincidentally match closely with her feminist beliefs, whereas I don't see what Peterson gains from his "outdated" belief.
Her perception of the crime dictates the level of severity of that crime. Can’t she see how that’s problematic thinking?
No she can't
Indeed. Her perception of what constitutes a violation is over inflated. Probably a result of childhood trauma.
I believe a lot of her "thinking" boils down to "my way or the highway"
Not sure what it says about the state of our society that listing to a civil conversation between two well intended people who disagree on certain topics is such a marvel but here we are .
Dr. Wolf's comments on toleration vs. consequences is exactly right. We are seeing this now all over California but especially in Alameda County (Oakland, Berkeley etc.). We have a "progressive" DA who won't press charges or presses minimal charges on property crime. The rate of crime is increasing but, in many cases, the statistics don't show it because people aren't bothering to report property crimes.
I love how Ms. Wolf sweeps aside the whole field of evolutionary biology aside by invoking, "Times have changed." Yeah, we know *times* have. But *biology* hasn't. If she's watched enough Dr. Peterson videos then she's aware that societies which have made the most progress in providing both sexes with equal opportunity also show the most evidence of the sexes reverting to their traditional roles, which speaks to innate biological templates that can only respond to changing times very slowly. Epigenetics, which we still don't understand well, might speed the adaptive process, but it doesn't *warp speed* it the way Ms. Wolf seems to think is possible.
I’ve noticed many feminists really have a hostile view of evolutionary psych. I find that interesting
We're hard wired in the medical system under the boot of profit. There's very little true science anymore. Covid made me search out multiple concepts and ideas. I now view virology with skepticism. Listening to old interviews of Kary mullis, the inventor of the pcr test, I learned that the use of pcr to identify any virus is ridiculous. Reading through Pfizers own study I understood, not only did they not have the virus to expose anyone to covid, they have no test too identify it. The whole thing is junk science for profit. Real science needs to be practiced without the prejudice of the science community that works for corporations that exist to protect their industry through the protection of germ theory. Yes its time to question everyhing
While I do give Dr. Wolf credit for trying to sit down and have respectful conversation, I agree with you very much. She seems to seriously jump the gun, on declaring all of evolutionary psychology out dated.
Maybe if she was more specific on points of contention, we could discuss some ways biology might be changing and evolving.
Women’s innate preferences aren’t going to just instantly change because social welfare lets them get by without a husbands help.
My interpretation of her position is that she’s hoping that men become devalued because she’s been wounded by men, and it would be easier and feel safer if they became obsolete.
She raises the point that evolutions biology is “convenient” for men.
I would raise the counter point that her contention that men’s value is being deconstructed is awfully “convenient” for feminists…
Wat
All she has to do is watch some Kevin Samuels videos.
After my divorce i joined an online dating side that included preferences for income and age. The vast majority of men didn't care about income but wanted a younger woman. The vast majority of women didn't mind dating an older man but would not date someone making less than them. That was 7 years ago. Naomi can make claims about how much society has change but I don't think the facts agree with her.
Nature doesn't agree with feminism. However, we should it is very clear that sexual violence is a serious issue we cannot brush aside.
Your right, she has the blinkers on.
I graduated in mechanical engineering in 1988. 10% of my class were female. I NEVER had a problem with male students on campus. From the time I was a child, my parents, and in particular, my father, reminded me to park under a light, keep my keys poking forward in my fist, where to hit and when to maximize my impact, always check the backseat of my car, NEVER be a target, keep out of situations where I was vulnerable, be aware not all men or people were good, and, if all else fails, and someone was in my backseat, ram the car into a wall at speed bc that was a fighter's move, not a victims. He said bite, go for eyes, groin, scratch, amp out. I grew up in a town with 4 colleges and one max security prison. I think he was more worried about an escaped inmate than a student or faculty harming me. He was a professor at my college. Anyway, since I was little, I had an education in human nature and a survival plan. I never acted out of control of myself, never was lewd or vulgar, and behaved like a person with a goal, ability, and took no crap. I did fine bc this is not a rape culture where a woman not covered head to toe is asking for molestation. I KNOW that my attitude kept me safe. It was me and my brain and my attitude to not take crap, and my dad talking to me, repeatedly for decades that protected me.
I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation between two brilliant people.
When women say he "basically" assaulted me that usually means it was consensual and the woman is now having regrets
NAILED IT :) Me and my family all said this exact thing!
Very sensitively and respectfully handled by both Dr Peterson and Dr Wolf. Whatever your views through this, this is the type of dialogue we need in the world more and an ability to disagree civiily and even concede at times that we may need to shift our own viewpoints a little, or even a lot.
It's what adult's like to do.
The trauma in her childhood has left her with a bit of distorted lens. It's so tragic because she is otherwise so intelligent, cogent, and thoughtful. How does one ever recover from those things? I do not know. A couple of her core perspectives are distorted but can't be discussed objectively without triggering a certain emotional ferocity. With the deepest of compassion, it is not easy to recover from such wounds. See "Body Keeps the Score", as she mentions. Let's all seek to be truthful, loving and compassionate with each other and that is the best we can do.
She is observably very sensitive to any conceivable hint that her or women's trauma may be misplaced to something other than the near worst recollection and reaction.
It affected her lack of understanding man. I don't think she is wasting any moment of her life thinking she might be wrong. Is like Gulag Archipelago all over again with people believing in the ideology so much that realizing it was wrong would have been too hard to bear, so hard that their whole existence would have been at stake.
She was right about accountability. Funny, when someone like Dr. Peterson calls for it, everyone nods.
Listen again.
@@andreeaalexandru7811 You sound like the nut.
What hasn't she understood? What has she failed to accomplish? She even went back to school to get her doctorate -- at Oxford, no less. And she did not give in to the COVID hysteria or the vaccine push. Considering the extreme pressure and fear mongering we were all subjected to, that shows strength of character.
Comes as no surprise to me that her husband is a veteran, by the way.
she says she was raped as a young girl. I wonder her definition of rape, her probable innate arrogance that led her into dangerous situations. She probably would have always held these man resenting views.
Loved this interview! Thank you Jordon and Niomah
What a wonderful discussion. Thank you both.
As a great admirer of Naomi Wolf this interview opened up a side of her that I’d never experienced. She usually seems so assured and confident but in this interview she really opened up her vulnerable side. Jordan has a way of discovering the whole person in his interviews. A truly great interview on both their parts.
Yep! He got her number 30 seconds in, and it never changed.
@@ctedone Ironically third wave feminism was more destructive than the coof.
I believe she is fabricating much of what she is saying about her Yale experiences. If she wanted to teach, she'd have found a way to pursue a position without need of her abuser's recommendation
@@marciamakoviecki3295 Easier said than done. The education cartel is a very tight knit group.
@@ctedone I still think it was an awesome interview on both their parts. I think they both learned things important.
Naomi Wolf wrote a book called "Outrages" in 2019. She alleged that "several dozen" men were executed in the UK for having homosexual sex during the 19th Century. However, it was immediately pointed out to Wolf that the term "death recorded" which she assumed meant that the prisoner had been executed, in fact meant that judges had abstained from handing down a death sentence. So this activist who influences many people on the left, was completely and utterly wrong about what she wrote. My point is that people like Wolf should not be permitted to continually "make mistakes" like that, shrug it off and move on. I'm still waiting for the power cuts, food shortages and financial collapse that was predicted in 2022 but which never happened. People like Wolf create a background "group think" of crisis which hasn't actually happened and yet, despite their proven "inaccuracy" they continue in the public eye as influencers.
Have you been to the grocery this year? We had massive food shortages, doubling prices, etc. And I see lines at the food bank wrapped around the block, which I've never seen before in my life. It sounds like her predictions were pretty close.
@@wtk6069 She's a liar. Her stuff is always rhetorically formulated, her 'research' is notoriously poor. For another instance, in her first book she claimed 150000 teen girls had died of anorexia in a period where the actual number was less than 500. It's still very serious and something to have public consciousness about but these types of 'mistakes' are just not OK for 'Doctor' Wolf to keep making. And there are whoppers all over her work. She's got an outsized academic credential. She should really have been stripped of her title for the gay genocide claims she made which turned out completely false in every single case she cited because that was also her dissertation 'research' focus at Oxford. Not a real doctor, and she notoriously doesn't do good research to back up her rhetorical stances. Just think about the interview where she tries to flat deny all the evolutionary biologist gender theory with 'misogyny' because apparently she didn't see enough lived experience rhetoric from women included in their statistical analysis. I deny her, she's a victimhood grifting loon who wouldn't know good science from a hole in the ground as far as I can tell.
Spot on William!
You must have a very good quality pillow.
Are you serious?! There have been all of those things, and what about the recent bank failures, and the government seized a bank just the other day. Man, you need to keep up on current events, and realize that our "system" is extremely fragile, as if the last couple years hadn't exposed this fact.
Another excellent interview. This is the way to bring ideas out in the public sphere.
Surprised by some of Naomi’s comments re: relationships. I think Dr. Peterson has a much better grasp on relationships. Thank you Dr. Peterson
What do you expect he's MALE.
Women see relationships like buffet food.
Men don't "see relationships" we see people.
*You might try to deny this, but you need only look around you*
A woman has needs, a man has providence. That's how this works. If a man has needs the woman doesn't have to provide at all, she will use guilt and lies to perform this at her own leisure. Whereas the man if he ain't bringing home bacon he is OUT, there is no leisure apart from when the woman decrees it.
But they got what they deserved anyway, the Census shows women have never been more liberated more empowered and more miserable than ever before. Men are suffering for it too, it sucks.
This Naomi chick is so empty headed it's untrue, and to be honest I am pissed with Peterson because he hasn't bothered picking her up on half the errors. I guess he's got limited time and she just keeps producing more! Urrgh Peterson what the hell has happened to you?
You're nothing but a 2 bit candidate salesman now, and I hate it! This guest is trash as well.
Men do understand the threat of death from assault. That threat looms in the mind of men before engaging in fights, self defense and defense of others. Their are many cases of simple hits to the head ending in death, paralysis or other sever life changing injuries.
Generally when two relatively sized men face off, the threat of unintentional homocide is beyond vanishingly small.
I recall a small skinny guy started shouting and peacocking at me and besides for the humor in it to me, I had no desire to fight him, his level of energy was one which may have required the level of force which may have also killed him. I left quickly before things could escalate.
That is not true for women. You average guy could accidentally cause the death of a woman, their necks have so much less muscle, slimmer less dense bones, not worth it.
I don't think doing self-defense or engaging in fights is exactly the same as a victim of rape or sexual assault or abuse.
the chances of dying in a physical assault is significantly higher than the chances of dying as a result of rape... try again. rapists rarely try to kill their victims, which would defeat the purpose, from a biological perspective.
@@LightnLife3It depends on the circumstances.
I got honestly tired of her lamentations about the "rape culture" on campuses. Don't forget the fact that a lot of men are falsely accused of rape so something doesn't add up here
Her whole life is justifying the trauma of her childhood. Every woman experiences what she did therefore she is normal.
That's real life for rape and sexual assault victims, which are too many of them out there.
Oh wait on here. You need to get that A LOT of men who rape never get caught. Very very few rape cases are falsified due to humiliation of the woman in questioning.
@@chaucerianfraud6767 For centuries men have gone to war together as "normal", all return changed, but there are extreme variances on how that changed is expressed. Some come home and go on with their lives, others fight the war forever.
@@nuqwestr I think comparing her to a soldier who served in battle is a bit much. I can agree to your point though.
Naomi: Finding a financially stable man are not attractive to woman, thats out of date.
Also Naomi: Thank you for my marriage because of you my husband got his life in order and picked up the check and that made him very attractive to me.
Right 😂
If you want to "catch her out" on that, you're not really listening / understanding the conversation..
Uhh the point is women have very diverse preferences nowadays
She is unfortunately almost completely insufferable and ill informed. JBP exhibits incredible patience
This conversation is a great example of what feminist theory is good for; an alternative lens to examine a problem or situation as a way to identify unknown biases and amplify voices that have been historically ignored. It also shows what it is not good for; a worldview or a primary scientific approach. Dr. Wolf's work has always struck me as that of someone who is intelligent, but trapped in a negative experience that allowed her to become indoctrinated into an incoherent ideology. Kudos to Dr. Peterson for maintaining such a civil, compassionate, and welcoming atmosphere throughout. Feminism served it's purpose, and now has become corrupted, and so it needs to be abandoned in favor of social movements and worldviews that better uplift humanity as a whole. Feminism is just another intellectual, and sometimes spiritual, obstacle to a more unified and enlightened society.
I am curious. What purpose did feminism serve?
After hearing Dr. Wolf talk, maybe there was a reason those voices were ignored.
"Respectfully, your theory is outdated because it offends me"
@sandman_says_runrunner4701 I'm not saying it was entirely successful, but Dr. Wolf is right about how the role of women was diminished in many ways after the Industrial Revolution. Women had long been disregarded and gatekept from pursuits they could have excelled at. They were infantalized, not taken seriously, and sometimes taken advantage of without consequences.
I think now we need to correct the overcorrection, help women embrace the best of both traditional and modern femininity, and create an environment where men and women exist in complimentary instead of competitive relationships.
Is mind-blowing how JB Peterson kept his calm at the last part of the interview.
Only about halfway through this, but really enjoying this. The attempt from both parties to really try to have an earnest and honest discussion makes such a difference. I am finding her experiences and perspective really interesting to hear about and I appreciate the level of respect from both parties.
o
@@adrianazollo2688 Please don't presume to speak for me.
Thanks.
@@garymccray7822 She is either a bot or a troll. I have seen this exact same comment in multiple threads now.
So smart, to steer the end of the conversation towards the topic laughter and play! This was a potentially tricky conversation!
Literally the best guest I've listened to so far in my opinion, this was an amazing conversation it was truly excellent to hear both of you going back and forth in this conversation ❤
“Be a force for good in the world, and that will be the adventure of a lifetime.” Truer words were never spoken.
I think she was/is ready to totally jump him because he brings up alcohol as a mitigating factor for "alleged" rape on campus. I say alleged for what SHOULD be obvious reasons. Those reasons are SEVERAL notable cases of rape accusations that turned out to be bogus. Of course rape does happen. But false accusations also happen.
Her point was that it can be a factor but it in no way accounts for a person's desire to assault someone.
My concern was, "So is alcohol an excuse for raping a person? Like does the man say, 'Hey, I was drunk. I didn't know what I was doing' ? That's NOT the responsible answer. You decide to drink yourself into drunkenness, then you need to take responsibility even if you don't remember. Nobody forced you to get drunk.
@@LightnLife3 That's exactly how the law treats alcohol in these scenarios.
@@dr.jenniferma3914It does account for a shared responsibility. If something sexual happens while both parties are heavily intoxicated and one regrets it later or their imagination perceives it differently after the fact (ask many drunk drivers if they were too drunk to drive), that’s not rape.
@@LightnLife3But if they’re both drunk?
Its hard to take seriously the claim of danger when they vote so consistently be soft on crime, and against any measures that would make them safer, like stricter social codes and segregation on campus.
I’m stunned at this woman. Not in a good way. She’s exhausting to listen to. Absolutely hiding behind pretending to want to learn from others but swiftly smacks down Jordan for reiterating her points in ways that don’t suit her. Sigh.
Talk about making up half your narrative. She's clueless, and this was so poor it actually makes me think Peterson is now C/op. It was that fucking terrible.
Its truly sickening and pathological, she puts herself on defense abasing himself constantly as if accusing Peterson himself of downplaying the seriousness of actual abuse... when he did nothing of the sort. She seems like a genuinely sick individual to be honest. The people thinking this was a respectful and mutual conversation are blind buffoons.
I was shocked at Naomi's wholesale rejection of evolution psychology and biology. How can she totally ignore genetic drives???
She’s a feminist, she knows men and women are the same, anything that contradicts that must be wrong.
@@jsbrads1 She never said they're the same.
Younger men attracted to older women with money??? LO-effin-L !!!
Naomi, please don't project when trying to make a point.
Younger males who are attracted to older women with money ARE NOT "MEN".
Any "Man" knows this. And any male who marries an older woman for money will eventually find himself unhappy, worthless and without purpose....
Go back to your drawing board Naomi, and leave your poetry out of it because your using your poetry to make your ideals more attractive - your putting lipstick on a pig.
@@jsbrads1 that's assumption behavior of what feminism means. I had that same belief when I was younger and hadn't learned there are different types of feminists and the real ones do emphasize the difference between males and females.
@@dr.jenniferma3914 In terms of sexual selection, yes she did…Men don’t select women for resources unless it’s literally a JOB.
Her perspective on male/female attraction seems to be based primarily on personal bias rather than objective analysis of facts.
You mean she's a feminist?
😅😅😅
Her own preference for a male who could financially provide undermined her argument, which was rather weak anyway.
Absolutely correct. Dr. Wolf has very little self-awareness in my opinion.
She’s the worst
Jordans composure and patience really show through in this one.
I loved this conversation. What a beautiful combo. She seems very likeable personality. Infact, she could be labeled as beautiful. 🌱
Adults having a civilised respectful conversation, refreshing ......
Very saddening that it is refreshing and not the norm :( But glad they are having such a conversation! :) I love civil discussions with my father too.
It's depressing to see that the feminists haven't been able to break out from their egos and learn from the movement's mistakes.
Feminism is sexism and sick.
True believers can’t learn.
It seems as though every response to your comment is completely annoying, including mine. - quote by me.
While I 100% appreciate and support Peterson's platforming everyone and the civility of both sides of the interview, Wolf seems either only capable of shallow, surface-level observations or to still try to remain committed to her ideology.
Take her statement of "high-income women are sexy" as an example- whether she tries or not, she doesn't end up going anywhere with it whereas Peterson attempts to offer some explanations and see if Wolf agrees.
@@theredboneking Feminists share a monolithic core ideology though.