Cursed? Or blessed? Afterall, how can any T-pose be more dominant than this one considering it was great enough to show dominance against lovecraftian Martians?
I think it should be...but only if done right. Speilberg won't touch it, high doubts about J.J. Abrams touching it, but absolutely NO ONE from the objectivist --films-- trainwrecks should come close to it.
I feel like Heinlein was writing a story about a super powered alien coming to earth and learning its customs but then he got distracted and started writing about his sexual fantasies.
That is objectively true. I was such a devoted worshipper at the altar of Heinlein when I read this that I actually failed to recognize my own disappointment w/ the last half of the novel. Decades later, I can finally see what a bizarre, bigoted perv he was.
The story started out strong with a commentary about corrupt officials, likable characters and cool world building. But instead of paying attention to these interesting concepts, Heinlein makes turned the story into Charles Manson saves the world.
"Here I had my first draft of my deep, philosophical debate with a stranger from the stars, and here I had my personal kink story filled with massive amounts of naked women who all want me, but I accidentally sent them both to the publisher IN THE SAME ENVELOPE!" (Jk it was prolly intentional, but I like to live in a world where it isn't because it's funny, instead of DEAR GOODNESS WHY WOULD YOU SAY THAT)
I feel like it makes sense in context. Also that one part was one of the only compelling observations. Mike could not laugh because he had been told that funny things were a “goodness”. His realization was that laughing is the goodness, which we do in response to wrongness. I haven’t thought of too many examples, but a lot of jokes off the top of my head boil down to some sort of wrongness. Often not overt moral wrongness, but stuff that just isn’t correct. The main problem I had with it is that this moment was when he claimed to fully grok being human and that he grokked love. Seems kinda nontrivial to me to go from monkeys hitting each other and laughing yo understanding love.
That's a bit backwards. _Stranger_ was published in 1961, so it's more like it *informed* 60's ideals and really weird anime. For all the reactionary stuff Red calls out, it was surprisingly popular among the hippies.
I mean, while I absolutely don't agree with the presentation. Why would it be ethically wrong to eat a dead person who completely consented to be eaten after their death and has not been killed for the purpose of cannibalism?
@@aquila4460 Mainly because humans tend to become very ill when repeatedly consuming humans. While a little here and there may be physically OK, my social brainwashing rather puts me off the idea.
It’s nice to see that in the book humans have evolved enough that the argument “Mike can’t own Mars because there’s already other people living there” is actually accepted, because historically, a place already being inhabited unfortunately hasn’t been enough to stop people from claiming that they own it anyway
I absolutely love how in all the "deep thoughts with Heinlein" scenes... the guy holding the cup in the painting is pinching the bridge of his nose... head down... as though he's listening to Heinlein and just thinking "stop talking you idiot"
tl;dr: Heinlein wrote a book about a powerful alien coming to Earth and learning about humanity as an outsider, but unfortunately he only had one hand on the typewriter while he did it.
The thing about Heinlein and homophobia is I don't think he was that in the traditional sense. After becoming familiar with Heinleins books and short stories I seriously don't think he views being gay as evil or a sin like most homophobic idiots and (I'm not joking) instead views it as being counterproductive to the survival of the human race, since it unlike heterosexual love if left to it's own devices it won't most likely result in a human being born. We need to remember that this was written during the 60's when overpopulation wasn't nearly as much of a problem as it is today.
Every time theres a "Deep Thoughts with Heinlein" you slowly begin to understand and feel the pain of the bystanders listening to the philosopher with agonizing looks on their faces in that greek painting
“So in case you were questioning the morality of his actions, it’s fine because he was an Angel the whole time. WEEEE.” So was Satan and look how he turned out.
I had a girlfriend whose favorite book was "Stranger in a Strange Land". She philosophically based a lot of her lifestyle around it. I didn't understand why our relationship was so one sided until I read it some years after we broke up.
I'm guessing Heinlein adhered to the belief that being a gay man must mean you're feminine and that by that logic gay men would only be attracted to feminine men.
@@trolldrool Or Heinlein assumed all men were attracted to feminine beauty, because that's just how men's minds work. Heinlein tried to be progressive, at least relative to his time, but he had some serious unexamined essentialism clogging up his brain drain.
"There used to be a fifth planet between Earth and Jupiter that the Martians decided shouldn't exist anymore and that's why there's an asteroid belt instead." Okay but why couldn't the book have been about that That's a story in and of itself
Irl the asteroid belt is a failed planet, its just iirc jupiter moved too close messing up the orbits before moving back to its current position. But i agree a story centered on the destruction of that planet and subsequent asteroid belt formation would be more interesting.
"This is never explained, I think it's just something Heinlein is into" A lot of it really was. A little known fact about Heinlein at the time was that his personal life was really really out there, even by 60’s standards, and he was getting old by then. Also his fortune was made by writing juvenile fiction which was mostly advertised by its insertion into school libraries which meant he had to suck up to librarian associations which were made up of the most prudish people on the planet. For most of his life he was in the closet in *so* many ways, almost oddly not including being gay. So Starship Troopers was Heinlein saying goodbye to the Juveniles, and Stranger was basically Heinlein coming out. As pretty much everything weird *except* gay.
I finally read the book, and I couldn't agree more. There's parts that are a bit cringey, but tbh it's not a bad scifi story. It's just a victim of the time period it was written.
Considering he went on to write shit like Time Enough For Love, in which a dude goes back in time and knowingly and enthusiastically has sex with his own mother...yeah, that tracks.
I saw no problem when you consider the Howards had a whole other definition of insest. The key was how many dangerous combinations the genes could have. Since they both had clean genetic strains they could not pass on bad mutations. They would consider two unrelated people who would not mix well to be incestuous. Interesting outlook. The whole concept behind the taboo is to prevent inbreeding. They eliminated the possibility totally beforehand.
Heinlein was an uncomfortably bizarre writer. To convey that immense discomfort, I vote we get M. Night Shyamalan to direct an adaptation of this book that's portrayed entirely as a psychological horror, _without changing anything about the characters_
Seriously... The whole point is that this Martian is not bound by society and knows the truth of this world, yet even he initially didn't care about gay people til the society he's supposedly fighting against tell him he's wrong..!
@@hp22h78 When I read it I took the whole anti gay stuff was that even the people closest to Mike didn't fully understand that his teachings meant, that they were still holding onto their past way of life. Then I learned about the writer. :(
Oh yeah… he was a known nudist and big proponent of poly relationships….. dude was… super weird… and sexist. Important to remember how much of what he wrote had not been written like that before anywhere near the main stream… his ideas seem blasé to us now…. But that’s cause we built modern sci fi on him, Asimov, and Clarke. All three of whom were batshit insane academics…. The other two just knew how to not write so blatantly about how insanely horny they where at all times……
Michael: “I learned some very important lessons from all of this” Everyone: “I’m guessing they’re all horrible distortions on the lessons you should have learned” Michael: “Death isn’t real and I’m basically god” Everyone: “Yeah that is so much worse”
This sounds like a D & D session gone wrong Edit: I made this comment in 2019-2020 and now I've finally played d&d, y'all were right. That was just normal d&d, my character(an overpowered arsonist 8 year old) overthrew a kingdom just bc someone in the group told them not to do it.
TheTired Fangirl I did accidentally start a cult in D&D once where our goal was to save the world from aliens, the only big difference is sex wasn’t involved ...I dunno what would have happened if they gave us a few more sessions tho
In D&D, we started a “cult” in which we killed demons and were all like TIME FOR A FUCKING CRUSADE and terrorized Lucifer for fun. And we disintegrated Mars and Jupiter.
@@shadestainedThey really just let kids read the darkest crap just because it’s old, like Tell-Tale Heart and Flowers for Algernon. Classics? Yes. For schoolchildren? NO. And yet both are commonly taught to kids
I don't think anyone actually vets what's going into school libraries that much, especially if the work is considered a classic... Unless there's gay or trans people in a book, then all of a sudden you have a furious mob of conservative parents demanding its removal.
@@yasminafarih3681 When Jill becomes a stripper she tells Mike not to disappear any of the men no matter what they do because "9 times out of 10 when a woman gets raped it's partly her own fault," so the man hasn't done anything wrong.
“I love all the people a bonded over water with!” “Ok, but you shouldn’t love guys” “What’s a guy” “It’s what you are” “So I can’t love me?” “No just not other men” “What’s men” “... it’s the gender that you are” “What’s a gender.” “... its a... state of existence that defines your body” “Ah, right.” “Ok ok. Now, don’t be gay” “What’s gay?” “It’s when you love another person of your gender” “But why is that bad?” “ITS INHUMANE AND UNPURE!!” “Ahh, ok.” “So...” “I love all the people a bonded over water with!”
lol so much mental acrobatics. i mean, just the normal amount for a right wing american, but really quite a lot. did you know that jesus made a new covenant with his followers that replaced the old one? so yeah all the people who go back to lovidicus to justify hatred of 'the gays' are actually not following the word of their supposed savior jesus christ. being self consistent sure is hard.
I like to think all the people Mike disappeared end up in another story somewhere. Like, imagine a story that has nothing to do with Stranger or Heinlein and these random people keep poofing out of nowhere, rambling about some naked Martian cannibal. 😂
"The Cat Who Walks Through Walls" has a similar kind of structure: the first half of it is a fairly entertaining sequel to "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", then it goes *sproing* and is suddenly a metafictional sequel to "The Number of the Beast", with crossover appearances from Jubal Harshaw and Lazarus Long, and an incredibly creepy scene about how hot 14-year-old girls are.
@@alisaurus4224 I think he's referring to the fact that Red is (I think) asexual. I'm basing this off the fact that she says that the book makes her feel extremely uncomfortable. I could be wrong, though.
@@Shadethewolfy well I mean she is but, I feel like most people might feel uncomfortable going in to read a sci fi novel and having it transition into loosely sci fi erotica after the first half.
@@roberttheguy4974 Yeah, just listening to the plot makes me INCREDIBLY UNCOMFORTABLE. It's a repeating cycle of pure cringe and an overwhelming urge to hit Heimlein in the face with every object in sight
I hate how this could've been such an interesting story about Michael learning about Earth and humanity learning about Mars and Mike learning to live with his superpowers but Heinlein had to make it about weird sex stuff
Honestly that's why a pet project of mine is creating the martians and their culture whit a story of Michael growing up with them and having to adapt because he doesn't have the physical characteristics of a Martian.
If Heinlein played DnD, he'd play a Lizardfolk Artificer that tries to have sex with every biologically compatible creature of the opposite sex nearby.
Don't you see? Murdering is actually good if it happens to the people who disagree with you. Because you are always right and try to improve the world, which means they are wrong and harmful to the world, so the world is better of without them.
@morantN01 You have enlightened me, I now see the nobility of your righteous mission to purify the world of dissenters. Clearly heinlein is the deepest writer that has ever breathed.
@@morantNO1 they (technically) are like deleted or something, don't think that legally counts are murder And also they go to like heaven or something after they die
ah, if only things stayed that way fun interpretation; that bit where he takes a nap and wakes up no longer a precious ace martian boi, that’s actually when his big bro lucifer decides to kick him while he’s down; whether out of the need to corrupt anything and everything, or just in a misguided attempt to get his lil bro to have some fun, I’ll leave up to interpretation
@@rogue_asami4522 Somebody's sexual orientation isn't based on your Wattpad level understanding of sexuality, ASAMI! It's not based on appearance, mannerisms, or activities they take part in. It's based purely on what they like.
She left out the part where the main female lead LITERALLY tells Mike not to kill r***sts because "9 out of 10 times when a woman gets r***d, it's at least partially her fault." That was the part where I put the book down.
She mentioned that in thier podcast, she wanted to put it in, but didn’t, it’s explained why in the podcast and I’m not saying it now, because it deserves to have larger audience and you all should check it out. And also because I forgot. But mostly the first thing.
Thanks for reminding me of this. I'd forgotten Bob's views of a LOT of topics were positively prehistoric. (That's code for he could be a real @hole sometimes).
Or that aliens have asexual reproductive systems. Or maybe aren't stuck in one sex their whole lives. Or that they don't breed at all during their lives but when they die they pump out a bunch of spores that combine with others to make the next generation. Or have lots and lots of sexes, and maybe get different results depending on which ones are involved in creating any given offspring. I remember a good short story about an entire ecosystem where everything was one species with a kajillion sexes, all with extreme polymorphism between them, and which things bred with what determined whether you got offspring that looked like bug-analogs, plant-analogs, beasties that carried other sessile sexes around, etc, etc. Terrestrial sex, gender, and reproductive options may seem complicated, but they're the tip of the iceberg in terms of potential. Dying to see what our machine-intelligence inheritors come up with - beyond "copy-paste" that is. :)
I started reading the book and Gill’s introduction is not exaggerated in the video it literally says “GILLIAN BOARDMAN was a competent nurse and her hobby was men.” 😂
So my father grew up in the 60's and 70's and was a huge fan of classic sci-fi. Had me reading Dune at 10 years old. I decided to spring the word Grok on him out of the blue in response to a question he asked me. Like yeah, I totally Grok that. I have never seen my father freeze the way he did the moment I said it. His only follow up was, and I quote, "Dear god, not that shit again. Please no." I think my father may have some history with the term...
@@char1211 Sure! Follow up is that my father was a massive old school sci-fi fan. Dune and Ringworld and Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep. All the classics. The reaction to "grok" comes from the fact that he, un-ironically, used the phrase himself as a teenager into his early 20's. Needless to say, didn't age well!
I have history with the term and I couldn't bring myself to finish reading this dumpster-fire. It is, to date, one of THREE books EVER that I started reading and straight up could not finish.
"Did you just write your self insert being sexually assaulted?" At first I thought the crazy bits were just him being a product of the 60's, but once it got to his self-insert getting assaulted...it really makes me wonder if someone assaulted him in real life, and he just assumed it was normal/something everyone did. It sure would go a long way towards explaining the book's criminally terrible understanding of consent.
Robert Miller If I’m remembering correctly Terminator was pretty consensual. Though I guess that’s debatable given a predestination paradox was involved.
@Shreyas Misra Nobody said that, what's wrong with you??? I doubt many people even think that way, to be honest. Rape is rape and it's always traumatic.
You know, this story actually has some cool ideas in it. It’s just everything else that screws it up. I will compliment Red for the attempt to make it hysterical rather than uncomfortable, but dang. Heinlein was one weird guy.
She over exagerates massively and skips the good parts, she focuses on 3 lines for a quarter of the video and does not cover anything the book was actually trying to say
@@DonutCare564a lot of shit… mostly that it’s author is insanely weird and somehow only slightly problematic for his time. What is skipped is how fascinating and fresh what he wrote was. This video covered how crazy he was, but now how prolific of a sci fi writer he was. This wasn’t awarded a Hugo award and became on of the greatest selling sci fi novels of all time because it was what she said it was, it did that in spite of it, or at least adjacent to it….. the book actually started as a modern and adult version of The Jungle Book, by Kipling. It gets crazier when you realize that this book did exceedingly well among those of the counter culture movement (beatniks and hippies)…. Honestly, this pre internet/post nuke era was batshit insane all around.
The thing about Heinlein being homophobic is that I don't think he actually was or at least wasn't in the traditional sense. After becoming familiar with many of Heinleins books and short stories I seriously don't think that he views being gay as evil or a sin like most homophobic idiots and (I'm not joking) instead views it as being counterproductive to the survival of the human race since unlike most heterosexual love if left to it's own devices it won't most likely result in a human being born. We need to keep in mind that this was written during the 60's and that overpopulation wasn't nearly as big of an issue as it is today.
Cinema Snob reviewing Blood Sicking Freaks: This was the Seventies, the only thing monogamous was peanut butter and jelly: >Insert appropriate Heinlein Deep Thought here
I’m unsure if this was purposeful but at 10:10, Michael is depicted with a traditional version of a Christian angelic halo, where in older art pieces halos weren’t any sort of rings but rather circles of holy bright light behind the head. If it was purposeful, insanely cool foreshadowing to Michael somehow being an archangel
Except for that one dude who's staring directly at him while caressing his thigh...while Heinlen rants about how "being gay, bi, or pan is bad, mmkay?"
I've read a few things by Heinlein, and I wouldn't say that you have. I think he's more subtle than that. His works often seem to contradict one another, arguing in one book that one concept is good, while in another book arguing that the concept is evil. I think Heinlein enjoyed playing with ideas. He enjoyed exploring them, developing them, seeing the rational consequences of them. The sex cult thing, for example, is a pretty natural extension of the Martian human's ignorance of humanity. Leaving aside the Martian superpowers, we're talking about someone who's completely naive and a super-celebrity. Intercourse would be a tremendous experience to him, so it makes sense that he'd want to focus on that for a bit (see for evidence every high school in America). His followers would naturally adopt his views on the subject. Heinlein gives one explanation (religious leaders have divergent sexual norms), and recent history (ie, "influencers") gives another. Okay, yes, it's not the only way it would go, and I seriously doubt someone with no concept of gender would consider homosexuality a problem (especially since the modern concept is pretty clearly not a cultural universal), but Heinlein's plot is a rational direction that the story could take given the ideas he's playing with (which, remember, he may not believe are true). Does this book indicate deep-rooted psychological issues? Sure. I'm just not sure whether they are Heinlein's issues, or society's. What I mean is, Heinlein may be presenting the ideas as true in order to explore them and expose them as false.
@@jamesverhoff1899 3 words "STAR SHIP TROOPERS" I do want to, wish to or ever will respect a person who made that book, and thinks it's a perfectly good acceptable future The mans just a straight up facist
@@vintheguy Not sure what your point is here. My argument is that I don't think we can determine, based on the text alone, which of the contradictory views Heinlein presented are his actual views. It's entirely possible--and I would say plausible--that he wrote these stories as ways to explore various perspectives. That he COMPREHENDS a viewpoint doesn't mean he ACCEPTS that viewpoint. It's not fashionable today, but part of critical thinking is having an understanding of your opponent's arguments. I've heard it said that if you aren't tempted to agree with your opponent you don't understand them. And there are some very interesting concepts in that book (the movie was crap). Should there be requirements for citizenship? If so, what constitutes those requirements? How do we deal with the inevitable conflicts over natural resources? How does exposure to violence as a regular occupational hazard change one's way of thinking? (That last one is a really subtle, but probably the most important one.) These are ideas worth exploring.
It is supposed to be funny. The thing is, the laughs are supposed to come from your instinctive understanding that Robert Heinlein is right about everything and everyone opposed to his ideas is silly.
Fun fact: Some people who liked this book went out and actually founded the Church of All Worlds. It is a real organization now that you can join. (I have no idea how true to the novel it is. I'm guessing they won't actually give you phenominal psionic powers.)
No but they will try to screw it into you and claim the failure is you not committed to sharing yourself enough. Lots of divorces based upon the jealousy between couples who joined it with one embracing it more than the other.
I wanted to read it too based on someone else's review, but the sex cult part was kinda played down in their review. Now that I've seen this, I don't wanna read it....
The sad part is that this story would've been WAY better if Mike was presented as the villain. Seriously, 80% of the book's problems would've been fixed if Mike was the villain and somebody else became the hero in act three.
I mean, you could take it as a bad end, or whatever. I will say, I read and loved "Starship Troopers", so I heard about this book and tried it out. It gave me MAJOR Heebie Jeebies, and I didn't even get to the 2nd Half. :D I thought Jill in the beginning looking out for Michael was pretty cute though. She reminded me of the sexy gal who's a big sis type.
"This is never explained, I think it's just something Heinlein is into." That could be the cover blurb on pretty much every one of his novels. And to think, this one was written BEFORE he got into to his "weird old horndog" phase!
@@violetbean8928 If I say "time-travelling nudist polycule (with bonus self-insert fanfic)" or "man decides not to kill himself yet because he's horny for his mother," it sounds like I'm making it up on the spot, but those novels were published in 1980 and 1973, respectively...
I think midway through this book is the exact moment Late Heinlein appears, fully formed. Now, after this he still wrote some things that were more like Early Heinlein (he isn't Late Heinlein full-time until 1970), but he clearly had Late Heinlein on call.
@@BladerBoi24 *Technically* speaking, Cannibalism isn't illegal! It's all the things that require cannibalism to happen that's illegal (like the murder, and desecrating the dead bits).
If I had the power to make a movie adaptation of any book, I'd make an extremely gay, extremely modern version of Stranger in a Strange Land with the purpose of making Heinlein spin in his grave so fast, he could power the Texas power grid.
"making Heinlein spin in his grave so fast, he could power the Texas power grid." This made me picture some straight-up Bethesda shit and made me laugh. Thank you for that.
lol lord knows they could use the backup supply, and what could be more quintessentially Texan than an independent power grid fuelled by incandescent homophobia
Heinlein was such a strange case. A gifted writer who could write the flimsiest, most unsophisticated prose. A shrewd observer of mankind who never could look beyond his own prejudices. A man who hammered home that "minority" people are just the same (incl brave, clever, good) as anyone else, and still presented thoughts that marked those minorities as unsavory and needing the white man to flourish.
@@grfrjiglstan To be fair, the biggest geniuses in the world either has always been half crazy/just crazy, or has gotten into something that got them crazy
@@ichabodlorax7585 yeah but you got to remember this is the man who twisted the plot of his story to basically covering the sex cult he made. Not that this is to bad of a thing (other half/fully crazy writers did similarish things) but it just puts into perspective how interesting he is.
@@DIN0911- Okay, so a reaaaaaaaallllly tight hug. That would possibly maybe definately make him pass out. At about the halfway point of writing his book before any of the sex cult stuff.
Well, if anything that means cannibalism WAS probably an issue at the time We wouldn't have Smokey Bear if people starting forest fires wasn't a problem
DjiDji canabalism is an issue that can occur in LITERALLY any culture if times get hard enough. And it’s such a terrifying and horrific thing that once is enough to create monster myths.
@@lordfelidae4505 It can occur even if times don't get hard. The Aztec Empire had a well-established agricultural sector but still practiced cannibalism to an extent; the purpose of the practice was symbolic rather than purely nutritional. The idea that human flesh is something that Should Not Be Eaten Ever is far from universal.
I've been reading this book recently, and I am outraged that Red failed to mention Jil being called 'pretty foots' at least twenty times in the first section of the novel alone. That or the fact that one of Jubal's titles is 'Professional Clown', or that Jubal regularly threatens to spank whoever he sees fit.
8:36 can we all just, sit an appreciate how adorable this is? They don’t understand fully but still do it because it’s important to their lil space buddy 😭
This book is like when you hear the straight people who think lesbians are hot and think they can turn them straight. I want to clarify, most straight people are not creeps like that
Omg, you're right, that's exactly the vibe this story gives. It's also the same vibe that people who think asexuals "Just haven't had good sex yet" give off. The belief that you can change someone's sexuality through sex. Heinlein was so freaking weird!
Love how Heinlein is like "Everything Mike does is Correct and Good because he's secretly the incarnation of the Archangel Michael. Except the pansexuality. We had to teach him not to do that. Encourage murder for inconvenience, discourage pansexuality."
@@themoleman6806 While the ideas Heinlein puts forth in is books are mostly so bad as to easily be mistaken for satire, if you read what he wrote outside his fiction you will fine that he seemed to believe them.
@@falconJB You're trying to say that the man that wrote _Job: a Comedy of Justice_ writing in all that stuff about heaven, complete with halos and angels, is being 100% serious and not taking the piss. Sure thing bud. And I have seen a lot of the work he wrote outside of fiction. About 90% of it is typical libertarian stuff so I don't know what you've been reading.
Eadric Robertson that’s what I meant, it was the 60s, if you have anything gay in your book or anything with gay undertones it’s either best case not gonna sell well or worst case get burnt. However Heinlein still snuck in some gay undertones in the book anyways disguised as hate
Deadass admitting that an actual arch-angel wouldn’t have seen anything wrong with being gay if humans didn’t tell him it was wrong. I love that for how self-owning it is.
@@rblack1986 Okay... Why is it gross? And don't just cite the bible, give me an actual, logical reason it's a bad thing other than just "The bible says so and I'm not gay". It might be hard to give proper reasons because there _aren't any_ It's just two people loving each other. Just because they can't make a baby (Keep in mind they might not even want a baby, or sex at all) doesn't mean it's gross, it's just love
@@rblack1986 where in the bible does it say that? cause as far as I remember the one and only line in the bible which mentions being gay, was a mistranslation of "pedophilia" from the original text. The irony of English Christian priests 'mistranslating' the Bible 'on accident' considering their reputation is hopefully not lost on you. If you don't get it you're too far gone. If you do get it you know you've mucked up and might need to retract some of the stuff you said.
@@rblack1986 I'm picking up "13/50" readings from you. Like, I don't think you believe that necessarily, and I don't care either. Just... damn, your logic is flawed.
The fact that they weren't able to create a horoscope because he was born on Mars is surprinsingly accurate. Since you need the date and time of birth as well as the location, since they are based on earth it would be nearly impossible to do an actual horoscope on someone born on a different planet.
I'm an ace, watching the second half of this was basically just: "Are you kidding me?" "This can't be a real book" "Oh boy" "Yes, no need for a plot, let's just include more sex"
Minihonda123 I’m reading this rn and I’ve finally gotten to... the latter half. I actually kinda enjoyed all the religious and social commentary of the first half but now.... oh god
Maybe, but Libertarians (TM) love mental gymnastics and so he would probably explain it away as "well they don't actually enjoy it, that's a façade that they're putting up to earn money, also because Freud was right, they're also rebelling against their father figures or didn't have a strong father figure. I'm Heinlein, I'm very intelligent." Also living for the comments that call this out as a light novel Isekai.
Wow, I'm starting to find classics are in two categories: 1. Great interesting stories only loosely connected with the real world. 2. Interesting worlds side lined by the Author's weird sex fetish or revenge fantasies.
>revenge fantasies That's not a bad thing... Dante's Inferno is essentially him walking around hell and meeting all the actual people who were mean to him in real life that he held a grudge over.
Jill and Jubal: Mike being raised outside of human civilization means he lacks all of the taboos society imprints in us. It really puts into perspective how meaningless some of the things we believe in actually are. Also Jill and Jubal: Oh no! Mike doesn't understand that he, a man, should absolutely never have a romantic or sexual relationship with another man! We need to make sure he understands this critical distinction lest something terrible, like two men having sex, should happen. Jill and Jubal yet again: Mike thinks cannibalism is cool and has no concept of privacy or consent. Oh well he's probably right.
Yep. That's why the sex cult ends up rejecting the homosexuality taboo. Jubal and Jill weren't portrayed as being right about everything. This is Heinlein, not Rand.
@@Archone666 I'm not so sure; when Ben mentions men kissing each other, he makes a point of saying that it wasn't 'a pansy gesture', and Harshaw says that it wasn't among the early Christians. I really got the idea that they were trying to make the point that it was agapic, not erotic. I think Heinlein on his bad days often was as badly 'I'm right! See, the events in my book _prove_ I'm right, because I accurately portray how humans do and could act and think.' as Rand was on her best days, which is to say not batshittedly so but still enough to be irritating to anyone who thought people might not be so. You mileage may vary.
@@michaelturyn4558 I dunno. When I read it, I didn't interpret "pansy gesture" as a homosexual act, but rather as a weak act, the act of a limp wristed... pansy. Or to put it another way, it read to me as Ben declaring, "these weren't dry pecks on the cheek. I had a man's tongue down my throat!" And Jubal commenting, "sounds like how the early Christians showed affection."
The thing about Heinlein being homophobic is that I don't think he actually was or at least he wasn't in the traditional sense. After becoming familiar with Heinleins books and short stories I seriously don't think he views being gay as evil or a sin like most homophobic idiots and (I'm not joking) instead views it as being counterproductive to the survival of the human race, since it unlike heterosexual love if left to it's own devices it won't most likely result in a human being born. We need to remember that this was written during the 60's when overpopulation wasn't nearly as much of a problem as it is today.
@@batshineman174 Heheheh... yeah, Heinlein had a definite impregnation fetish. "Time Enough For Love" actually starts with a foreward by the protagonist's biographer, extolling the wondrous goodness that is the sheer population size of humanity in the 40th century. "We could lose a hundred planets, and our gallant women would replenish those numbers in a single generation!"
I read this when it first came out; his later books became increasingly strange. Near the end of his career, he had an early (forgotten procedure name) carotid artery reaming out, restoring blood flow to the brain. This may have explained some of the weirdness.
“Can’t own Mars because it’s inhabited and he doesn’t own it and doesn’t even want to” That one Native American guy who was just a random person and was forced to sign a contract giving his tribal lands over to the English even though he couldn’t read the contract and he was in no position to have the right to sign it: 🧐
@@justanotheronlineobserver3387 Martians apparently don't have a concept of "ownership". You'd have to teach them the concept first, and then afterwards tell them _"All your base are belong to us"_
In the novel, Mike owning Mars is a political fiction based on the precedent that the lunar colonists own the Moon as the first people to live there (which goes back to a theory almost as old as agriculture - that the people who live on and work the land have a right of ownership to it) - though the idea that the colonists have the right to the entire Moon just from settling part of it seems like an over-extension of that ancient principle. The theory that Mike owns Mars as the first person to live there relies on a narrow definition of "people" as "humans" - but it gets replaced through some face-saving political theatre with the theory that Mike is the representative of the sovereign nation of Mars, populated and governed by the native Martian peoples. A combination of pointing out the realities and making a successful Fast Talk roll...
I read Stranger a long, long time ago. Through-out much of it, I kept thinking "this is a bunch of hippie crap." However there is one scene it in that has always stuck with me, it's the scene where they talk about truth, and they come across a barn, and ask what color the barn is. And someone says "red" but it's pointed out that you can't see the other side of the barn, so the other side might not be red. A statement of truth often comes with an acknowledgement of what is unknown.
Deep Thoughts With Heinlein, the timestamp collection for our unenlightened convenience: 3:24 Freudianism 4:39 Motivation 5:32 Cannibalism 7:51 Homosexuality 9:17 Pornography 11:34 Exhibitionism 12:32 Homosexuality 2: Electric Boogaloo (seriously though Red, I think this is one of the funniest bits you've ever done)
'Deep thoughts with Heinlein' is like when a show has a designated cool character and they reach into a coat: You never know what the hell is gonna be pulled out.
1/8 of this book is “neat sci-fi” Another 1/6 book is “dated 60’s beliefs that make me sad” Last 1/2 is “I learned things about Heinlein I now wish I didn’t”
“T-posing psychic nudist colony with rage-eyed Heinlein censor bars” is the most cursed thing I’ve seen all month.
Cursed? Or blessed? Afterall, how can any T-pose be more dominant than this one considering it was great enough to show dominance against lovecraftian Martians?
@Justin Bergeron you mean "blursed"?
I might be wrong, but theyre also t posing on the fludd from halo so now its even more cursed
This entire book is probably the most cursed classic I've experienced. No wonder such insane imagery came from it.
Bob the Monitor
That is a sentence I thought I would never read
“That’s not an old one, that’s a corpse nobody’s eaten yet.”
Sentences I never expected to hear for 400
What is "incorrect HP Lovecraft quotes"?
Waffogram Correct! You win Jeapordy
Now I want to make jeopardy just with osp quotes
I’m tired B. That would actually be hilarious
Hey a LA BB murder case reference!
So according to this book, the meaning of life, the world, the universe and everything isn't 42. It's 69
You genius bastard lmfao
*Slow clapping*
No towels then?
@@ericpraline Oh you always need a towel
@@Vorloks Why thank you internet stranger
This feels like a fanfic that switched writers halfway through.
My Immortal?
Part 1: Written on a good trip.
Part 2: Written on meth.
accurate
It got kinda silly after all the women kissed him and swooned. Am starting chapter 18
IMO it's closer to seeing the train headlights slowly glow brighter against the school bus
First half: "wow, this could be a movie"
Second half: "wow, this could be a *porn* movie"
nome sobrenome or a smutty fanfic
I think it should be...but only if done right. Speilberg won't touch it, high doubts about J.J. Abrams touching it, but absolutely NO ONE from the objectivist --films-- trainwrecks should come close to it.
Me: "so.... This could be an Anime?"
This sucks: the homophobic cultist guide to being a prick
Ok, but for real; take out the homophobia, sexism, and racism; this would be a cult classic anime
I feel like Heinlein was writing a story about a super powered alien coming to earth and learning its customs but then he got distracted and started writing about his sexual fantasies.
That's about the reading experience, yeah
That is objectively true. I was such a devoted worshipper at the altar of Heinlein when I read this that I actually failed to recognize my own disappointment w/ the last half of the novel. Decades later, I can finally see what a bizarre, bigoted perv he was.
The story started out strong with a commentary about corrupt officials, likable characters and cool world building. But instead of paying attention to these interesting concepts, Heinlein makes turned the story into Charles Manson saves the world.
It is rumored he started taking LSD when writing this book
"Here I had my first draft of my deep, philosophical debate with a stranger from the stars, and here I had my personal kink story filled with massive amounts of naked women who all want me, but I accidentally sent them both to the publisher IN THE SAME ENVELOPE!"
(Jk it was prolly intentional, but I like to live in a world where it isn't because it's funny, instead of DEAR GOODNESS WHY WOULD YOU SAY THAT)
The superpeople T-Posing on the Martians is the best thing I've ever seen.
I didn't even question it but now I...
Dammit...
T-pose for dominance
Here's a like....
I must say I don't remember that part of the book. Must read again :)
I wondered if it was a reference to the Source Wall in Jack Kirby's "New Gods" Comics.
An alien who doesn't laugh laughing for the first time at the sight of the cycle of abuse is legitimately creepy
The Three Stooges enters the chat. ;)
Heinlein is legitimately creepy. Still in my top five favorite science-fiction writers.
Not just an alien, but also the actual incarnation of an archangel. Not alarming at all.
I feel like it makes sense in context. Also that one part was one of the only compelling observations. Mike could not laugh because he had been told that funny things were a “goodness”. His realization was that laughing is the goodness, which we do in response to wrongness. I haven’t thought of too many examples, but a lot of jokes off the top of my head boil down to some sort of wrongness. Often not overt moral wrongness, but stuff that just isn’t correct. The main problem I had with it is that this moment was when he claimed to fully grok being human and that he grokked love. Seems kinda nontrivial to me to go from monkeys hitting each other and laughing yo understanding love.
@donfunk6613 He somehow manages to write really good fiction in the exact opposite genre he was going for.
This feels like a hybrid between 60's ideals and a really weird anime.
Better say Hentai Anime is better then that. Hentai just does whatever.
That's Heinlein for ya.
That's a bit backwards. _Stranger_ was published in 1961, so it's more like it *informed* 60's ideals and really weird anime. For all the reactionary stuff Red calls out, it was surprisingly popular among the hippies.
I think that creepily, but astutely, sums it up!
Why would you say something so controversial yet so brave.
“Deep thoughts with Heinlein- Cannibalism is actually fine.”
I mean, while I absolutely don't agree with the presentation. Why would it be ethically wrong to eat a dead person who completely consented to be eaten after their death and has not been killed for the purpose of cannibalism?
@@aquila4460 Mainly because humans tend to become very ill when repeatedly consuming humans. While a little here and there may be physically OK, my social brainwashing rather puts me off the idea.
@Aquila In the words of the Great Master Red (No, not that one, the author of this video) "Hell if I know!"
Leaving Hannibal's true motivations aside, what I get from one of these is, that porn back then was made by man and man with fake breast.
Anything's fine with consent!
"This is never explained, I think it's just something Heinlein is into"
literally the entire book
If you can't get the female members of your sex cult to enact the ultimate twin fantasy, then what's the point of even being a cult leader/archangel?
@@CasualNotice its the "my oc is better than all, so am I !" thing
@@CasualNotice "TWINS, BASIL! TWINS!!!"
I mean...can ya blame him?
@@alanivar2752 Yes.
It’s nice to see that in the book humans have evolved enough that the argument “Mike can’t own Mars because there’s already other people living there” is actually accepted, because historically, a place already being inhabited unfortunately hasn’t been enough to stop people from claiming that they own it anyway
The fact that martians can disappear things is probably a pretty strong deterrent.
This is literally the only good message ever said in this entire book
it's called conquering....it's what people do.
@@sentryogmixmaster ok and?
@@sentryogmixmaster Just because people do it doesn’t make it not bad. Murder is also a thing that people do, and it is obviously still bad.
"He realizes comedy is built on pain. Humans laugh, because they can't do anything else." Wow, that caught me off guard
I mean he’s not wrong
Comedy = Tragedy + Time
Black Humor = (Tragedy + Time) - Time
@@Karak-_- I thought Black Comedy was Kevin Hart?
@@WizTroll fuck that was good.
@@crescenteon7619 Yes, he is. Comedy has nothing to do with pain.
first act michael: soft boy, precious son. Protect Him.
second act michael: [CENSORED]
Third act Michael: murder spree
Fourth act michael: Angel Michael
This comment reminds me of the Oversimplified joke with Rasputin [CENSORED][CENSORED][CENSORED]
5th act Michael: DeStRuCtIoNN
@@InsaneGreatsword
Yes, but this is actually good
I absolutely love how in all the "deep thoughts with Heinlein" scenes... the guy holding the cup in the painting is pinching the bridge of his nose... head down... as though he's listening to Heinlein and just thinking "stop talking you idiot"
LMAO nice observation
The hemlock was to silence him
"someone euthanize him already please"
I rewatched just to see that. You’re 100% - I started cackling on my floor. Pretty sure my daughter thinks I’m crazy now 😂
theres also a guy facewalling which is very much my reaction.
tl;dr: Heinlein wrote a book about a powerful alien coming to Earth and learning about humanity as an outsider, but unfortunately he only had one hand on the typewriter while he did it.
OH EW 😆
This comment is the best description of this book that I've ever read. This video is a close second
Yep
Honestly, he writes most of his books like that
Oh God I get it
That's both hilarious and deeply troubling
“Love should be free and without limit, *unless it’s gay of course*-“
The thing about Heinlein and homophobia is I don't think he was that in the traditional sense.
After becoming familiar with Heinleins books and short stories I seriously don't think he views being gay as evil or a sin like most homophobic idiots and (I'm not joking) instead views it as being counterproductive to the survival of the human race, since it unlike heterosexual love if left to it's own devices it won't most likely result in a human being born.
We need to remember that this was written during the 60's when overpopulation wasn't nearly as much of a problem as it is today.
@@batshineman174 TL;DR: Basically Heinlein didn't like the gays because of reasons of homosexuality not producing kids.
@@advictoriamsshitposts8689 I think he's forgetting the hundreds of orphaned children and that gays could just adopt
xxAsh playzxx its more that they wanted more kids back then, not a family.
Eh In "Time Enough for Love" he seems all for gay stuff. That one's hella about pleasure too
Every time theres a "Deep Thoughts with Heinlein" you slowly begin to understand and feel the pain of the bystanders listening to the philosopher with agonizing looks on their faces in that greek painting
that's Socrates killing himself my man. Feel like that context only adds to "Deep Thoughts with Heinlein" portions.
@Corvus Morve I prefer the idea that it's actually Heinlein and everyone is in despair about his awful-I mean GREAT ideas on everything.
That's a painting of Sokrates you uncultured swine. Don't you go insulting the OG philosopher
I’m sry bystanders this guy is f**k
@@microchip9982 this sentence is a grammatical disgust
Top ten phrases spoken moments before unspeakable disaster:
"Now it's time for some deep thoughts, with Heinlein"
I love how halfway through you can just tell when this line is about to come up
I’m officially an adult now and can watch this video without hurting Red’s conscience. Finally.
Nice
@astoroidea6502
Huh. Now that I think about it, witnessing this video before the age of 🧓 would be pretty _strange,_ fr.
Happy birthday
Congrats! Was it everything you dreamed of?
Was it worth it my newly eldered friend?
"Maybe shes born with it"
"Maybe is Hedonism"
Has got to be some of the best background lines ever 😂
"And then in the third act, he starts a sex cult."
Zeus could never-
At least he didn’t encourage his followers to do it veraciously. That is Aphrodites job
*Surprised Pikachu Face*
Ngl I'd join that cult
Well, to be fair, Zeus would be first in line to join. Will be drown in Demi Gods and Hera's personal vendettas on the little bastards for ages.
@@FlfyDfy I already have
“So in case you were questioning the morality of his actions, it’s fine because he was an Angel the whole time. WEEEE.”
So was Satan and look how he turned out.
Yes but Mike goes back up to heaven to resume his angelic duties once he is done 'fixing' Earth.
Satan is Best Angel
You do realize Heinlein has never actually associated a portrayal of heaven with objective good?
@@Scotch20 I'd argue that Stranger In A Strange Land is an example of him doing exactly that.
@@alanivar2752 mmmm ah you see tho.. you know what I'm gonna not say anything.
I had a girlfriend whose favorite book was "Stranger in a Strange Land". She philosophically based a lot of her lifestyle around it. I didn't understand why our relationship was so one sided until I read it some years after we broke up.
Oh boy
I am scared to ask but what did she do?
@@leonhardeuler7647Start a cult, probably.
ok the key advice one should take from this .. if you have a girlfriend who has a favorite book etc., first thing read the book .. just saying
@@leonhardeuler7647do you really wish to know?
Jill: Dont be attractive to men. Be more masculine.
Ancient Greece: Am I a joke to you?
hey man it is more masculine because you are dominating another man, what is more masculine then that.
Because, to quote Red, what's manlier than *TWO MEN*
I'm guessing Heinlein adhered to the belief that being a gay man must mean you're feminine and that by that logic gay men would only be attracted to feminine men.
or, you know: Actual gays: are we a joke to you?
@@trolldrool Or Heinlein assumed all men were attracted to feminine beauty, because that's just how men's minds work.
Heinlein tried to be progressive, at least relative to his time, but he had some serious unexamined essentialism clogging up his brain drain.
"There used to be a fifth planet between Earth and Jupiter that the Martians decided shouldn't exist anymore and that's why there's an asteroid belt instead."
Okay but why couldn't the book have been about that
That's a story in and of itself
I know right, that’s like a one sentence horror story.
Marvin's first test of the "Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator".
mystery
Try Spirit Science's The Sumerian Epic for better info on that whole debacle.
Irl the asteroid belt is a failed planet, its just iirc jupiter moved too close messing up the orbits before moving back to its current position. But i agree a story centered on the destruction of that planet and subsequent asteroid belt formation would be more interesting.
"This is never explained, I think it's just something Heinlein is into"
A lot of it really was. A little known fact about Heinlein at the time was that his personal life was really really out there, even by 60’s standards, and he was getting old by then. Also his fortune was made by writing juvenile fiction which was mostly advertised by its insertion into school libraries which meant he had to suck up to librarian associations which were made up of the most prudish people on the planet. For most of his life he was in the closet in *so* many ways, almost oddly not including being gay.
So Starship Troopers was Heinlein saying goodbye to the Juveniles, and Stranger was basically Heinlein coming out. As pretty much everything weird *except* gay.
I finally read the book, and I couldn't agree more. There's parts that are a bit cringey, but tbh it's not a bad scifi story. It's just a victim of the time period it was written.
Considering he went on to write shit like Time Enough For Love, in which a dude goes back in time and knowingly and enthusiastically has sex with his own mother...yeah, that tracks.
@@AdlaiArnold That's messed up. It makes Fry's "nasty in the past-y" moment seem perfectly innocent.
I saw no problem when you consider the Howards had a whole other definition of insest. The key was how many dangerous combinations the genes could have. Since they both had clean genetic strains they could not pass on bad mutations. They would consider two unrelated people who would not mix well to be incestuous. Interesting outlook. The whole concept behind the taboo is to prevent inbreeding. They eliminated the possibility totally beforehand.
@@Glittersword Yeah, tell it to the Hapsburgs. What's considerated a 'bad' trait is debatable.
Heinlein was an uncomfortably bizarre writer.
To convey that immense discomfort, I vote we get M. Night Shyamalan to direct an adaptation of this book that's portrayed entirely as a psychological horror, _without changing anything about the characters_
I would buy that movie
Honestly, I think that would almost be a good movie.
Underrated. Take this algorithm bump.
it would be great but for the love of satan dont
@@somedudewithsomememes2035 "for the love of Satan" is not a phrase I expected to see today, but I'm happier you said it than the other thing
I wonder how many other literary classics are just a story loosely wrapped around Author Insert Fetish Porn
I mean, The Divine Comedy was basically a glorified self-insert fanfic
I don't think you'd be surprised...
Oedipus Rex
@YourThoughtCriminal I mean 1984 is actually... good.
Holy shiz JELLO??!!
Mike: is perfectly ok with gay people
Everyone else: bUt WhY wOuLd yUo dO ThAt
OoHHOH
Seriously... The whole point is that this Martian is not bound by society and knows the truth of this world, yet even he initially didn't care about gay people til the society he's supposedly fighting against tell him he's wrong..!
Okay idea: rewrite the book but make it gay
@@tofu_twee this would actually work bc the anti gay part doesn't affect anything in the narrative
@@hp22h78 When I read it I took the whole anti gay stuff was that even the people closest to Mike didn't fully understand that his teachings meant, that they were still holding onto their past way of life. Then I learned about the writer. :(
“THATS the story? That was just the authors barely concealed fetish”
truth
Oh yeah… he was a known nudist and big proponent of poly relationships….. dude was… super weird… and sexist. Important to remember how much of what he wrote had not been written like that before anywhere near the main stream… his ideas seem blasé to us now…. But that’s cause we built modern sci fi on him, Asimov, and Clarke. All three of whom were batshit insane academics…. The other two just knew how to not write so blatantly about how insanely horny they where at all times……
barely concealed? really?
Barely feels like an overstatement
What do you mean barely?!
"None of this is framed as horror"
AU from the perspective of a random civilian watching a sex cult disappear people and amass political power when?
I think you just described Midsommar
@@redmadhatter03 Not the holiday, right?
@@bokrugthewaterserpent3012 i think you just mean all politicians.
It's not only a comedic line, but an informative and necessary one, LOL
Michael: “I learned some very important lessons from all of this”
Everyone: “I’m guessing they’re all horrible distortions on the lessons you should have learned”
Michael: “Death isn’t real and I’m basically god”
Everyone: “Yeah that is so much worse”
@@ecrusar5216 I second this sentiment
To Human Being: Glad to see another fan of the Door Monster. That was from "Self-Fulfilling Idiocy 3", wasn't it?
Spectacular reference.
This comment cannot be liked enough
Can't like enough!
This sounds like a D & D session gone wrong
Edit: I made this comment in 2019-2020 and now I've finally played d&d, y'all were right. That was just normal d&d, my character(an overpowered arsonist 8 year old) overthrew a kingdom just bc someone in the group told them not to do it.
TheTired Fangirl I did accidentally start a cult in D&D once where our goal was to save the world from aliens, the only big difference is sex wasn’t involved
...I dunno what would have happened if they gave us a few more sessions tho
More like a session gone right
@@crimson8867 Found the bard.
Depends how many bards are in the party.
In D&D, we started a “cult” in which we killed demons and were all like TIME FOR A FUCKING CRUSADE and terrorized Lucifer for fun. And we disintegrated Mars and Jupiter.
for the first half I was like "huh, this is neat, maybe they have it in the school library", then I got to the 2nd half
They had it at my High school library. That's where I read it.
@@alexwork4829 I did check mine but it wasn't there
this was in my *elementary school* library.
...i'm very glad i got bored and put it back like, three pages in.
@@shadestainedThey really just let kids read the darkest crap just because it’s old, like Tell-Tale Heart and Flowers for Algernon. Classics? Yes. For schoolchildren? NO. And yet both are commonly taught to kids
I don't think anyone actually vets what's going into school libraries that much, especially if the work is considered a classic... Unless there's gay or trans people in a book, then all of a sudden you have a furious mob of conservative parents demanding its removal.
You skipped over the part where Jill says that its the victims fault when they are raped, so yeah consent really isn't a thing the book cares about.
.....
....
.......
*WHAT??*
@@yasminafarih3681 When Jill becomes a stripper she tells Mike not to disappear any of the men no matter what they do because "9 times out of 10 when a woman gets raped it's partly her own fault," so the man hasn't done anything wrong.
@@falconJB
//vomit noises
Is it time for another *DEEP THOUGHTS WITH HEINLEIN* ?
Imagine if this book was released during the second half of this decade
Time for some deep thoughts with Heinlein:
"Being gay... is gay... and that is not cool"
This concludes deep thoughts with Heinlein.
lol, says the asexual. xD
Being a women is cool only if your hot and naked.
129das that is definitely a title of a Panic at the Disco song
Oof I was too late
Really tired of experts on Heinlein who have, at most, read one book once.
Can we appreciate how every third sentence could be an absolutely hilarious cards against humanity card
Red's videos should be quoted and made into a cards against humanity pack. I would 1000 percent buy it
It's so specific yet its so perfect for it.
It's like that right-wing form of antifa - where you can do whatever you like, so long as it's one of the allowed activities.
Yoooo this is hurtfully true
Margarita
Household chores?!? THE MAN HAS NO SKIN!!!
"And Ben, who IS saying No to a lot of this is being treated like he'll learn or come around" as an aro/ace I can relate
Reasons it took me 18 years to realize I was asexual
Reason #1: That quote
@@thefrenchtaunter7916 then simply ignore my comment and move on with your life. It's not that hard
@@un-näymed no
@@thefrenchtaunter7916 then it sounds like a you problem ngl.
Ben did come around, when he groked it In fullness.
“I love all the people a bonded over water with!”
“Ok, but you shouldn’t love guys”
“What’s a guy”
“It’s what you are”
“So I can’t love me?”
“No just not other men”
“What’s men”
“... it’s the gender that you are”
“What’s a gender.”
“... its a... state of existence that defines your body”
“Ah, right.”
“Ok ok. Now, don’t be gay”
“What’s gay?”
“It’s when you love another person of your gender”
“But why is that bad?”
“ITS INHUMANE AND UNPURE!!”
“Ahh, ok.”
“So...”
“I love all the people a bonded over water with!”
I'm starting to think that the author painted his own character into a rhetorical corner.
@@JanusKastin Now I kinda want to see a crossover between Heinlein and Ayn Rand. The ultimate pseudophilosophical libertarian self-insert fantasy.
Big Mans it’s like who’s on first but with gayness...
lol so much mental acrobatics. i mean, just the normal amount for a right wing american, but really quite a lot.
did you know that jesus made a new covenant with his followers that replaced the old one?
so yeah all the people who go back to lovidicus to justify hatred of 'the gays' are actually not following the word of their supposed savior jesus christ.
being self consistent sure is hard.
JanusKastin no he did intentionally.
“look guys he can’t be evil he’s a literal archangel”
*nervous laughter*
Yeah, whoever heard of evil archangels?
*John Milton looking shifty in the back*
Also the Archangels from Shin Megami Tensei
A certain light bringer would beg to differ.
...Does Lucifer count here,
Don’t worry, he’s just the second Jesus. His followers even ate his body and blood before he ascended to heaven!
"And then in the third act he starts a sex cult"
Me, an innocent bab: "A-a what?!?”
you heard it.
Me too brb bro me too
Reeeee
*Cover the child’s ears!*
Should have run away and continued to be innocent.
I like to think all the people Mike disappeared end up in another story somewhere. Like, imagine a story that has nothing to do with Stranger or Heinlein and these random people keep poofing out of nowhere, rambling about some naked Martian cannibal. 😂
I'm sure he didn't originate the concept, but _The Cat Who Walked Through Walls_ was Heinlein going full Multiverse, so this checks out.
Sounds like something Philip José Farmer would write, as a series, uh, sort of like the "Riverworld" series ... 😉
@@GSBarlevI thought it was _Number of the Beast_ that had the weird mutliverse stuff.
"The Cat Who Walks Through Walls" has a similar kind of structure: the first half of it is a fairly entertaining sequel to "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", then it goes *sproing* and is suddenly a metafictional sequel to "The Number of the Beast", with crossover appearances from Jubal Harshaw and Lazarus Long, and an incredibly creepy scene about how hot 14-year-old girls are.
Ya know what? if i ever finish one of my stories, i wanna inclufr that (charactjer that rambles about Nudidt Cannibal Martians) as a referenve
gotta love how red can casually dunk on all of heinleins weird ideas about sex by just existing
As women DO!
@@alisaurus4224 I think he's referring to the fact that Red is (I think) asexual. I'm basing this off the fact that she says that the book makes her feel extremely uncomfortable. I could be wrong, though.
@@Shadethewolfy well I mean she is but, I feel like most people might feel uncomfortable going in to read a sci fi novel and having it transition into loosely sci fi erotica after the first half.
@@roberttheguy4974 yeah that's fair XD
@@roberttheguy4974
Yeah, just listening to the plot makes me INCREDIBLY UNCOMFORTABLE.
It's a repeating cycle of pure cringe and an overwhelming urge to hit Heimlein in the face with every object in sight
“Are you one of those females that they keep talking about?”
“Can’t you teeeeeeellllll?”
*he actually can’t*
Dragon Ball?
NinjaBluefyre ?
@@chocomuffin7433 In early DragonBall Goku couldn't tell the difference between boys and girls.
Choco Chipzzz this reads like ASDFmovie
R0-83-RT oh
"So this is my religion."
"Not interested."
"It involves sex."
*"I like your words, funny magic man."*
No gay sex
Pass
Nut
"You son of a bitch, I'm in."
Aliester? is that you?
I hate how this could've been such an interesting story about Michael learning about Earth and humanity learning about Mars and Mike learning to live with his superpowers but Heinlein had to make it about weird sex stuff
Honestly that's why a pet project of mine is creating the martians and their culture whit a story of Michael growing up with them and having to adapt because he doesn't have the physical characteristics of a Martian.
We were robbed by the story's own dang author
Imagine hearing your friend tell you “I like you a lot. I’d eat you if you died.”
Thank you for sharing that with us Michael.
*sleeps with pepper spray, defibrillator, and/or shotgun for the foreseeable future*
If Heinlein played DnD, he'd play a Lizardfolk Artificer that tries to have sex with every biologically compatible creature of the opposite sex nearby.
@@demi-femme4821 What about the Party's Bard? I mean, there can be only one crazy, Sex obsessed party member.
@@kabob0077 the bard subclassed into monk
@@demi-femme4821 That actually sounds fun to play, I'm stealing this for latter
I think the scariest thing about this story is it’s not framed as a horror.
Don't you see? Murdering is actually good if it happens to the people who disagree with you. Because you are always right and try to improve the world, which means they are wrong and harmful to the world, so the world is better of without them.
@morantN01 You have enlightened me, I now see the nobility of your righteous mission to purify the world of dissenters. Clearly heinlein is the deepest writer that has ever breathed.
The levels of sass in this thread are amazing.
@@morantNO1 they (technically) are like deleted or something, don't think that legally counts are murder
And also they go to like heaven or something after they die
@@vintheguy Vaporizing someone is murder. Sending someone to the afterlife is murder.
Michael’s more interested in water than women and I love that
ah, if only things stayed that way
fun interpretation; that bit where he takes a nap and wakes up no longer a precious ace martian boi, that’s actually when his big bro lucifer decides to kick him while he’s down; whether out of the need to corrupt anything and everything, or just in a misguided attempt to get his lil bro to have some fun, I’ll leave up to interpretation
9:48
Why tho?
Okay, but what about men? Maybe it’s the illustrations, but I can see him being into men.
@@rogue_asami4522 Somebody's sexual orientation isn't based on your Wattpad level understanding of sexuality, ASAMI! It's not based on appearance, mannerisms, or activities they take part in. It's based purely on what they like.
She left out the part where the main female lead LITERALLY tells Mike not to kill r***sts because "9 out of 10 times when a woman gets r***d, it's at least partially her fault."
That was the part where I put the book down.
Good lord!😬
😳😳😳
You took to long to put the book down
At the moment this started you should have known this is f*cked up
She mentioned that in thier podcast, she wanted to put it in, but didn’t, it’s explained why in the podcast and I’m not saying it now, because it deserves to have larger audience and you all should check it out. And also because I forgot. But mostly the first thing.
Thanks for reminding me of this. I'd forgotten Bob's views of a LOT of topics were positively prehistoric. (That's code for he could be a real @hole sometimes).
“Heterosexual love, the one thing unique to the human race” love that this implies all aliens are gay
Or that aliens have asexual reproductive systems. Or maybe aren't stuck in one sex their whole lives. Or that they don't breed at all during their lives but when they die they pump out a bunch of spores that combine with others to make the next generation. Or have lots and lots of sexes, and maybe get different results depending on which ones are involved in creating any given offspring. I remember a good short story about an entire ecosystem where everything was one species with a kajillion sexes, all with extreme polymorphism between them, and which things bred with what determined whether you got offspring that looked like bug-analogs, plant-analogs, beasties that carried other sessile sexes around, etc, etc. Terrestrial sex, gender, and reproductive options may seem complicated, but they're the tip of the iceberg in terms of potential. Dying to see what our machine-intelligence inheritors come up with - beyond "copy-paste" that is. :)
I ain't becoming an astronaut, cuz space is gay
listen aliens are all non-binary pansexuals, valid
J J thirteen that’s your loss
Katie Martin you. you get it.
“Cannibalism good, homosexuality bad”
-Heinlein; a very “”big brain boy””
Big Brain Time
@@dropdead234 citation? That sounds really interesting.
@@dropdead234 See, if it's a joke that nobody got, it's not actually a joke-it's just a poor attempt at humor.
Are those quotations a typo? Why’re they there
Darthane Still if it is true he made it as a joke I think it means the guy can’t write comedy
“And he may be the archangel Michael. Spoiler alert: He’s right.”
WE ARE REACHING LEVELS OF HERESY THAT SHOULDNT EVEN BE POSSIBLE!
THE CHURCH OF ALL WORLDS HAS TAKEN JERUSALEM! DEUS VULT!
@@HunterStiles651
DEUS VULT
BURN THEN IN HOLY FIRE BROTHA!
GATHER THE ORDER OF JERUSALEM, THE BROTHERS OF THE IMPERIUM OF MAN AND THE WRIGGLERS OF JOECRAP!!!!
DEUS VULT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DEUS VULT!
FOR THE GOD EMPEROR OF MAN KIND
I started reading the book and Gill’s introduction is not exaggerated in the video it literally says “GILLIAN BOARDMAN was a competent nurse and her hobby was men.” 😂
This sounds like a story about a dystopia turning into a different kind of dystopia
Your comment is severely underrated
Like Dune, but unironically.
Mike: I have come to save you!
The crowd: Huzah! Thank you, Mike!
Mike: Anyways, would you like to join my sex cult?
The crowd: Oh no! It's Mike!
So my father grew up in the 60's and 70's and was a huge fan of classic sci-fi. Had me reading Dune at 10 years old. I decided to spring the word Grok on him out of the blue in response to a question he asked me. Like yeah, I totally Grok that.
I have never seen my father freeze the way he did the moment I said it. His only follow up was, and I quote, "Dear god, not that shit again. Please no."
I think my father may have some history with the term...
It sounds like your dad has been through some shit. His reaction is absolutely hilarious!
Can we please get a follow up? What happened that made your dad dislike the word so much??
@@char1211 Sure! Follow up is that my father was a massive old school sci-fi fan. Dune and Ringworld and Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep. All the classics. The reaction to "grok" comes from the fact that he, un-ironically, used the phrase himself as a teenager into his early 20's. Needless to say, didn't age well!
i imagine it'll be the same in 50 years when someone says yolo or dabs
I have history with the term and I couldn't bring myself to finish reading this dumpster-fire.
It is, to date, one of THREE books EVER that I started reading and straight up could not finish.
"Did you just write your self insert being sexually assaulted?"
At first I thought the crazy bits were just him being a product of the 60's, but once it got to his self-insert getting assaulted...it really makes me wonder if someone assaulted him in real life, and he just assumed it was normal/something everyone did. It sure would go a long way towards explaining the book's criminally terrible understanding of consent.
I think it was considered normal back then. Is there a romantic story written before 1990 that doesn't include questionable consent?
@NecroMelodia Hey! Our fetishes are *extremely* complex, thank you very much.
Robert Miller If I’m remembering correctly Terminator was pretty consensual. Though I guess that’s debatable given a predestination paradox was involved.
@@BlueSun_ Yeah, but that doesn't rule out that the author may have had it. "More common in woman" doesn't mean "only woman have this fetish" >.>
@Shreyas Misra Nobody said that, what's wrong with you??? I doubt many people even think that way, to be honest. Rape is rape and it's always traumatic.
You know, this story actually has some cool ideas in it. It’s just everything else that screws it up. I will compliment Red for the attempt to make it hysterical rather than uncomfortable, but dang. Heinlein was one weird guy.
She over exagerates massively and skips the good parts, she focuses on 3 lines for a quarter of the video and does not cover anything the book was actually trying to say
@@willmcgonigle3107what was the book actually trying to say then lol
@@DonutCare564a lot of shit… mostly that it’s author is insanely weird and somehow only slightly problematic for his time. What is skipped is how fascinating and fresh what he wrote was. This video covered how crazy he was, but now how prolific of a sci fi writer he was. This wasn’t awarded a Hugo award and became on of the greatest selling sci fi novels of all time because it was what she said it was, it did that in spite of it, or at least adjacent to it….. the book actually started as a modern and adult version of The Jungle Book, by Kipling.
It gets crazier when you realize that this book did exceedingly well among those of the counter culture movement (beatniks and hippies)…. Honestly, this pre internet/post nuke era was batshit insane all around.
Crud, now y’all have gotten me to go read it. Good on you for inspiring me to broaden my mind.
@@willmcgonigle3107 she isn't exaggerating that much, and she hits the weirder points dead on. When was the last time YOU read the book?
The whole story in a nutshell:A Martian Angel with super powers takes over the world with a s€x cult that loves everything that isn't gay.
Yeah!
Yup that’s it
Pretty much.
you forgot the part where they get superpowers but still spot on
idk man seems pretty g a y to me
"Cannibalism
is actually fine
so long as that cannibalism is _never gay_ "
This concludes Deep Thoughts with Heinlein
Is cannibalism gay? I mean you're basically eating a huMAN
@@raspberrycrowns9494 Look up Armin Miewes.
The thing about Heinlein being homophobic is that I don't think he actually was or at least wasn't in the traditional sense.
After becoming familiar with many of Heinleins books and short stories I seriously don't think that he views being gay as evil or a sin like most homophobic idiots and (I'm not joking) instead views it as being counterproductive to the survival of the human race since unlike most heterosexual love if left to it's own devices it won't most likely result in a human being born.
We need to keep in mind that this was written during the 60's and that overpopulation wasn't nearly as big of an issue as it is today.
@@melvinmerkelhopper5752 Oh dang
@@Moonstar79 You looked it up didn't you?
Deep thoughts with Heinlein:
"Monogamy is the great opposer of beauty."
This concludes deep thoughts with Heinlein
This has to become a part of the videos
Cinema Snob reviewing Blood Sicking Freaks: This was the Seventies, the only thing monogamous was peanut butter and jelly:
>Insert appropriate Heinlein Deep Thought here
I’m unsure if this was purposeful but at 10:10, Michael is depicted with a traditional version of a Christian angelic halo, where in older art pieces halos weren’t any sort of rings but rather circles of holy bright light behind the head. If it was purposeful, insanely cool foreshadowing to Michael somehow being an archangel
The picture of Heinlein as Socrates: all those people covering their eyes and showing deep emotional pain are doing so due to what he's saying.
I was getting major Sseth vibes from the camera work on "Deep Thoughts with Heinlein"
It really hit me on the last one, how face-palming everyone in the picture was.
I love that they did the cuts that way
Except for that one dude who's staring directly at him while caressing his thigh...while Heinlen rants about how "being gay, bi, or pan is bad, mmkay?"
They rejected Heinlein Socrates because he told them the truth.
I've learned more than I've ever needed to know about Heinlein, his fetishes, and his deep rooted psychological issues.
Yeah it just feels like a slap to the face of knowledge when first watching this.
I've read a few things by Heinlein, and I wouldn't say that you have. I think he's more subtle than that. His works often seem to contradict one another, arguing in one book that one concept is good, while in another book arguing that the concept is evil.
I think Heinlein enjoyed playing with ideas. He enjoyed exploring them, developing them, seeing the rational consequences of them. The sex cult thing, for example, is a pretty natural extension of the Martian human's ignorance of humanity. Leaving aside the Martian superpowers, we're talking about someone who's completely naive and a super-celebrity. Intercourse would be a tremendous experience to him, so it makes sense that he'd want to focus on that for a bit (see for evidence every high school in America). His followers would naturally adopt his views on the subject. Heinlein gives one explanation (religious leaders have divergent sexual norms), and recent history (ie, "influencers") gives another. Okay, yes, it's not the only way it would go, and I seriously doubt someone with no concept of gender would consider homosexuality a problem (especially since the modern concept is pretty clearly not a cultural universal), but Heinlein's plot is a rational direction that the story could take given the ideas he's playing with (which, remember, he may not believe are true).
Does this book indicate deep-rooted psychological issues? Sure. I'm just not sure whether they are Heinlein's issues, or society's. What I mean is, Heinlein may be presenting the ideas as true in order to explore them and expose them as false.
@@jamesverhoff1899 the man was either a genius, a psychopath, or both?
@@jamesverhoff1899
3 words
"STAR SHIP TROOPERS"
I do want to, wish to or ever will respect a person who made that book, and thinks it's a perfectly good acceptable future
The mans just a straight up facist
@@vintheguy Not sure what your point is here. My argument is that I don't think we can determine, based on the text alone, which of the contradictory views Heinlein presented are his actual views. It's entirely possible--and I would say plausible--that he wrote these stories as ways to explore various perspectives. That he COMPREHENDS a viewpoint doesn't mean he ACCEPTS that viewpoint. It's not fashionable today, but part of critical thinking is having an understanding of your opponent's arguments. I've heard it said that if you aren't tempted to agree with your opponent you don't understand them. And there are some very interesting concepts in that book (the movie was crap). Should there be requirements for citizenship? If so, what constitutes those requirements? How do we deal with the inevitable conflicts over natural resources? How does exposure to violence as a regular occupational hazard change one's way of thinking? (That last one is a really subtle, but probably the most important one.) These are ideas worth exploring.
The way Red describes it, this book would actually work remarkably well as a dark comedy.
It is a dark comedy. It is a satire on the prude and religious and superstitious and intolerant US society of the 1950s.
That's pretty much what they did with Starship Troopers.
I think the novel is a dark comedy.
It is, most Heinlein is. Job a comedy of Justice is exactly that.
It is supposed to be funny. The thing is, the laughs are supposed to come from your instinctive understanding that Robert Heinlein is right about everything and everyone opposed to his ideas is silly.
Fun fact:
Some people who liked this book went out and actually founded the Church of All Worlds. It is a real organization now that you can join.
(I have no idea how true to the novel it is. I'm guessing they won't actually give you phenominal psionic powers.)
No but they will try to screw it into you and claim the failure is you not committed to sharing yourself enough. Lots of divorces based upon the jealousy between couples who joined it with one embracing it more than the other.
First Half: Wow, this is a really cool book, I think I might read this.
Second Half: No, no I'm never reading this. WHAT THE FECK HAPPENED!?
I wanted to read it too based on someone else's review, but the sex cult part was kinda played down in their review. Now that I've seen this, I don't wanna read it....
I mean, this book was unironically one of the driving forces behind the sexual revolution and civil rights movement
Its like if kubrick cut a movie with 2 hours of barry lyndon and the last 30 minutes is the oragy scene from eyes wide shut.
Heinlein happened.
And its literal
The sad part is that this story would've been WAY better if Mike was presented as the villain. Seriously, 80% of the book's problems would've been fixed if Mike was the villain and somebody else became the hero in act three.
I mean, you could take it as a bad end, or whatever.
I will say, I read and loved "Starship Troopers", so I heard about this book and tried it out. It gave me MAJOR Heebie Jeebies, and I didn't even get to the 2nd Half. :D
I thought Jill in the beginning looking out for Michael was pretty cute though. She reminded me of the sexy gal who's a big sis type.
Personally, I don't read him as being villainous, so much as extremely misguided. He wasn't trying to be evil.
Mike never comes off as a villain at any point though? He’s just extremely confused.
more act *PORN*
Or even if it was presented as something pure being corrupted by society and others beliefs.
“Deep Thoughts with Heinlein”- Gay stuff is illegal, but love freely
Yeah, in this book. You should read Time Enough for Love it's all about polyamoury; have sex with anyone who agrees without limits.
But no guy on guy butt stuff. That is Icky.
I really don't grok that author.
I would like this comment, but it’s at 69
Don't forget The Moon is a Harsh Mistress!
"This is never explained, I think it's just something Heinlein is into."
That could be the cover blurb on pretty much every one of his novels. And to think, this one was written BEFORE he got into to his "weird old horndog" phase!
BEFORE?
what the hell did he write afterwards?
@@violetbean8928 If I say "time-travelling nudist polycule (with bonus self-insert fanfic)" or "man decides not to kill himself yet because he's horny for his mother," it sounds like I'm making it up on the spot, but those novels were published in 1980 and 1973, respectively...
I think midway through this book is the exact moment Late Heinlein appears, fully formed. Now, after this he still wrote some things that were more like Early Heinlein (he isn't Late Heinlein full-time until 1970), but he clearly had Late Heinlein on call.
"Agnes was like that because Freud was right about everything."
Psychologist in me: "Wait that's illegal"
Part 2:
"Cannibalism is actually fine"
Me: "wait that's ACTUALLY illegal"
@@BladerBoi24 I'm a Prion and I approve this message.
@@BladerBoi24 *Technically* speaking, Cannibalism isn't illegal! It's all the things that require cannibalism to happen that's illegal (like the murder, and desecrating the dead bits).
@@109Rage Wonder if you could do cannibalism if you didn't kill them and they gave explicit permission in their will.
@@109Rage Not sure what country you live in, but in almost every country it IS illegal to desecrate or tamper with a dead body in any way
The artists depiction of Michael as a soft femboy martian really furthering the realization of how anime this plot is.
I'ma just take Michael real quick
⁰00⁰0
Nah anime would be all for gay and bisexuality. couldn't be
@@animequeen9711 i mean not really?? there isn’t that much anime with LGBT characters-
I was maybe, actually, rooting for our fantastical little jelly bean 🥺 well up until the sex cult dlc.
How to absolutely demolish your oponent in an argument:
“Meat is meat, Duke”
“Why are you so invested in defending this”
“Why are you 12.5% nonwhite?”
it is the most heinlein moment of all heinlein moments
Oh my god Karen, you can't just ask people why they're 12.5% nonwhite!
he also says all of his ancestors were cannibals because europeans did it too lol
If I had the power to make a movie adaptation of any book, I'd make an extremely gay, extremely modern version of Stranger in a Strange Land with the purpose of making Heinlein spin in his grave so fast, he could power the Texas power grid.
"making Heinlein spin in his grave so fast, he could power the Texas power grid."
This made me picture some straight-up Bethesda shit and made me laugh. Thank you for that.
@@catbatrat1760 Bethesda valve source creation engine
No no no this book deserves no attention, let die like a bad fire man
I’m fuckin sorry but I lost it at “making Heinlein spin in his grave so fast he could power the Texas power grid”
lol lord knows they could use the backup supply, and what could be more quintessentially Texan than an independent power grid fuelled by incandescent homophobia
Heinlein was such a strange case. A gifted writer who could write the flimsiest, most unsophisticated prose. A shrewd observer of mankind who never could look beyond his own prejudices. A man who hammered home that "minority" people are just the same (incl brave, clever, good) as anyone else, and still presented thoughts that marked those minorities as unsavory and needing the white man to flourish.
I'm convinced you need to be half-crazy to be a creative genius.
@@grfrjiglstan To be fair, the biggest geniuses in the world either has always been half crazy/just crazy, or has gotten into something that got them crazy
Heinlein sounds like he needed a hug
And a real talk from a level-headed close friend.
@@ichabodlorax7585 yeah but you got to remember this is the man who twisted the plot of his story to basically covering the sex cult he made. Not that this is to bad of a thing (other half/fully crazy writers did similarish things) but it just puts into perspective how interesting he is.
@@DIN0911-
Okay, so a reaaaaaaaallllly tight hug. That would possibly maybe definately make him pass out. At about the halfway point of writing his book before any of the sex cult stuff.
One of the most horrifying monsters in some Native American *LITERALLY WARNS EVERYONE FROM EATING PEOPLE WTF-*
Edit: Oh God what have I done?
In Heinlein's defense, not every tribe along the Rockies had heard of that particular figure, if some of the settler's tales are to be believed.
They kind of created that monster for a reason.
Well, if anything that means cannibalism WAS probably an issue at the time
We wouldn't have Smokey Bear if people starting forest fires wasn't a problem
DjiDji canabalism is an issue that can occur in LITERALLY any culture if times get hard enough. And it’s such a terrifying and horrific thing that once is enough to create monster myths.
@@lordfelidae4505 It can occur even if times don't get hard. The Aztec Empire had a well-established agricultural sector but still practiced cannibalism to an extent; the purpose of the practice was symbolic rather than purely nutritional. The idea that human flesh is something that Should Not Be Eaten Ever is far from universal.
I've been reading this book recently, and I am outraged that Red failed to mention Jil being called 'pretty foots' at least twenty times in the first section of the novel alone. That or the fact that one of Jubal's titles is 'Professional Clown', or that Jubal regularly threatens to spank whoever he sees fit.
Professional clown should have been mentioned
'Professional Clown' seems pretty appropriate for ol' Jubal
from what I gather, he had a pretty interesting life in a circus/carnival, among other things.
down bad for Fuçkin' FEET.
"Pretty Foots"? Is this Quentin Tarantino's favorite novel?
8:36 can we all just, sit an appreciate how adorable this is? They don’t understand fully but still do it because it’s important to their lil space buddy 😭
this book really should've stuck to the theming of the beginning instead of going all sex cult
This book is like when you hear the straight people who think lesbians are hot and think they can turn them straight. I want to clarify, most straight people are not creeps like that
Omg, you're right, that's exactly the vibe this story gives. It's also the same vibe that people who think asexuals "Just haven't had good sex yet" give off. The belief that you can change someone's sexuality through sex. Heinlein was so freaking weird!
This comment is... Questionable. And I'm not even straight.
Thank you for your wisdom, Sobek
LUCKILY THEY AREN'T
@@202mc4 could you clarify?
Love how Heinlein is like "Everything Mike does is Correct and Good because he's secretly the incarnation of the Archangel Michael. Except the pansexuality. We had to teach him not to do that. Encourage murder for inconvenience, discourage pansexuality."
It's _almost_ like the story is _supposed_ to be ridiculous.
@@themoleman6806 While the ideas Heinlein puts forth in is books are mostly so bad as to easily be mistaken for satire, if you read what he wrote outside his fiction you will fine that he seemed to believe them.
@@falconJB You're trying to say that the man that wrote _Job: a Comedy of Justice_ writing in all that stuff about heaven, complete with halos and angels, is being 100% serious and not taking the piss. Sure thing bud.
And I have seen a lot of the work he wrote outside of fiction. About 90% of it is typical libertarian stuff so I don't know what you've been reading.
Wow I can't believe that a book from the
*1960s*
Is not onboard with anything gay.
Eadric Robertson that’s what I meant, it was the 60s, if you have anything gay in your book or anything with gay undertones it’s either best case not gonna sell well or worst case get burnt. However Heinlein still snuck in some gay undertones in the book anyways disguised as hate
Deadass admitting that an actual arch-angel wouldn’t have seen anything wrong with being gay if humans didn’t tell him it was wrong. I love that for how self-owning it is.
@@rblack1986 Okay... Why is it gross? And don't just cite the bible, give me an actual, logical reason it's a bad thing other than just "The bible says so and I'm not gay". It might be hard to give proper reasons because there _aren't any_
It's just two people loving each other. Just because they can't make a baby (Keep in mind they might not even want a baby, or sex at all) doesn't mean it's gross, it's just love
@@rblack1986 Tell me you know nothing about HIV infection without telling me you know nothing about HIV infection.
@@rblack1986 Also, you act like humans are the only species where same-sex relationships exist. Spoilers: WE AREN'T.
@@rblack1986 where in the bible does it say that? cause as far as I remember the one and only line in the bible which mentions being gay, was a mistranslation of "pedophilia" from the original text.
The irony of English Christian priests 'mistranslating' the Bible 'on accident' considering their reputation is hopefully not lost on you.
If you don't get it you're too far gone.
If you do get it you know you've mucked up and might need to retract some of the stuff you said.
@@rblack1986 I'm picking up "13/50" readings from you.
Like, I don't think you believe that necessarily, and I don't care either. Just... damn, your logic is flawed.
The fact that they weren't able to create a horoscope because he was born on Mars is surprinsingly accurate.
Since you need the date and time of birth as well as the location, since they are based on earth it would be nearly impossible to do an actual horoscope on someone born on a different planet.
This book is an aces worst nightmare... *never mind it’s everyone’s nightmare*
Minihonda123 I'm pretty sure ace people would just get bored in the last half of the book
I'm an ace, watching the second half of this was basically just:
"Are you kidding me?"
"This can't be a real book"
"Oh boy"
"Yes, no need for a plot, let's just include more sex"
Minihonda123 I’m reading this rn and I’ve finally gotten to... the latter half. I actually kinda enjoyed all the religious and social commentary of the first half but now.... oh god
God the fact that red is ace and she had to read this KILLS me every time
@@Cherrycherryemoji Poor Red
"No woman likes, watches, or even understands pornography."
Oh man, Onlyfans would probably have given this guy a fucking brain aneurysm.
He'd spontaneously combust after learning about all the guy-on-guy fanfiction written by and for women
@@cam4636 I hope they gave him sleepless nights because the first zines with said guy on guy action existed back in the earliest days of Star Trek.
I mean wattpad is to most women what ph is to most men. Not necessarily a lack of understanding so much as different mediums for the same emotion.
@@Bewegungskrieg You know, I think you've perfectly summed up why people come up with the weirdest shit when they're horny.
Maybe, but Libertarians (TM) love mental gymnastics and so he would probably explain it away as "well they don't actually enjoy it, that's a façade that they're putting up to earn money, also because Freud was right, they're also rebelling against their father figures or didn't have a strong father figure. I'm Heinlein, I'm very intelligent." Also living for the comments that call this out as a light novel Isekai.
Wow, I'm starting to find classics are in two categories:
1. Great interesting stories only loosely connected with the real world.
2. Interesting worlds side lined by the Author's weird sex fetish or revenge fantasies.
>revenge fantasies
That's not a bad thing... Dante's Inferno is essentially him walking around hell and meeting all the actual people who were mean to him in real life that he held a grudge over.
@@PudgyMoogle No yea...you hit the nail.
All Quiet on the Western Front?
I mean the count of monte cristo is good but totally a revenge fantasy, if i think about it
You need a big ego to become a world famous author. I'm convinced it's mandatory.
I was gonna complain about how sarcastic this synopsis was, then I saw the channel name. Nailed it
Jill and Jubal: Mike being raised outside of human civilization means he lacks all of the taboos society imprints in us. It really puts into perspective how meaningless some of the things we believe in actually are.
Also Jill and Jubal: Oh no! Mike doesn't understand that he, a man, should absolutely never have a romantic or sexual relationship with another man! We need to make sure he understands this critical distinction lest something terrible, like two men having sex, should happen.
Jill and Jubal yet again: Mike thinks cannibalism is cool and has no concept of privacy or consent. Oh well he's probably right.
Yep. That's why the sex cult ends up rejecting the homosexuality taboo. Jubal and Jill weren't portrayed as being right about everything. This is Heinlein, not Rand.
@@Archone666 I'm not so sure; when Ben mentions men kissing each other, he makes a point of saying that it wasn't 'a pansy gesture', and Harshaw says that it wasn't among the early Christians. I really got the idea that they were trying to make the point that it was agapic, not erotic.
I think Heinlein on his bad days often was as badly 'I'm right! See, the events in my book _prove_ I'm right, because I accurately portray how humans do and could act and think.' as Rand was on her best days, which is to say not batshittedly so but still enough to be irritating to anyone who thought people might not be so.
You mileage may vary.
@@michaelturyn4558 I dunno. When I read it, I didn't interpret "pansy gesture" as a homosexual act, but rather as a weak act, the act of a limp wristed... pansy. Or to put it another way, it read to me as Ben declaring, "these weren't dry pecks on the cheek. I had a man's tongue down my throat!" And Jubal commenting, "sounds like how the early Christians showed affection."
The thing about Heinlein being homophobic is that I don't think he actually was or at least he wasn't in the traditional sense.
After becoming familiar with Heinleins books and short stories I seriously don't think he views being gay as evil or a sin like most homophobic idiots and (I'm not joking) instead views it as being counterproductive to the survival of the human race, since it unlike heterosexual love if left to it's own devices it won't most likely result in a human being born.
We need to remember that this was written during the 60's when overpopulation wasn't nearly as much of a problem as it is today.
@@batshineman174 Heheheh... yeah, Heinlein had a definite impregnation fetish. "Time Enough For Love" actually starts with a foreward by the protagonist's biographer, extolling the wondrous goodness that is the sheer population size of humanity in the 40th century. "We could lose a hundred planets, and our gallant women would replenish those numbers in a single generation!"
Every time Red talks about "Deep Thoughts with Heinlien", my brain goes "Was Heinlien ok?"
In a word: no
@@nymphrodellsalavin in two: hell no
In three words: Oh HELL no
I mean if for some reason your definition of a normal person were to be a sexist, homophobic, racist..., Human he would be "normal"
If you have heard even a twentieth of the whalefuck shit that happens in Starship Troopers, you would no longer need to ask that question.
Heinlein: love freely! stick it to the man!
someone: *is gay*
Heinlein: no! not like that! >:[
god imagine what the idea of trans and asexual people would do to him
totally fuck with all the ideas of his shitty fucking book
@@sarafontanini7051 he’d have a breakdown, he’d lose it completely
@@ciceroxnightmother2588 Nah, he’d probably deny their existence. Because he can’t just be an ass, he has to be a predictable ass.
@@thatsroughbuddy8742 you make a fair point
Bisexual and Ace People: *Breathes*
Heinlein: *stock girlish scream*
I read this when it first came out; his later books became increasingly strange. Near the end of his career, he had an early (forgotten procedure name) carotid artery reaming out, restoring blood flow to the brain. This may have explained some of the weirdness.
if Heinlein was born in the current century i feel he would write one of those weird harem lightnovels with way to much fanservice
But he grew up in the early 20th century so he was saved by having smarter influences
I like those lightnovels though
@@biggali have you tried getting better taste?
@@TheNameAlcorWasStolenFromMe I already drink seltzer, I think I can't improve
@@heinoustentacles5719 "saved"?
I mean...
“Can’t own Mars because it’s inhabited and he doesn’t own it and doesn’t even want to”
That one Native American guy who was just a random person and was forced to sign a contract giving his tribal lands over to the English even though he couldn’t read the contract and he was in no position to have the right to sign it: 🧐
Martian can make you disappear at will if you piss them off, and anyone claiming ownership of their planet would defenetly piss them off.
@@justanotheronlineobserver3387 Martians apparently don't have a concept of "ownership". You'd have to teach them the concept first, and then afterwards tell them _"All your base are belong to us"_
To be fair, this is like the Native Americans having nukes.
Oh, I get it. It's sci-fi, space colonialism.
In the novel, Mike owning Mars is a political fiction based on the precedent that the lunar colonists own the Moon as the first people to live there (which goes back to a theory almost as old as agriculture - that the people who live on and work the land have a right of ownership to it) - though the idea that the colonists have the right to the entire Moon just from settling part of it seems like an over-extension of that ancient principle.
The theory that Mike owns Mars as the first person to live there relies on a narrow definition of "people" as "humans" - but it gets replaced through some face-saving political theatre with the theory that Mike is the representative of the sovereign nation of Mars, populated and governed by the native Martian peoples.
A combination of pointing out the realities and making a successful Fast Talk roll...
"Displaces things in the fourth dimension"--HE'S A WEEPING ANGEL!!
Don't Blink!
Got that backwards, chief. Weeping Angels are just the members of Mike's Martian Sex cult.
I read Stranger a long, long time ago. Through-out much of it, I kept thinking "this is a bunch of hippie crap." However there is one scene it in that has always stuck with me, it's the scene where they talk about truth, and they come across a barn, and ask what color the barn is. And someone says "red" but it's pointed out that you can't see the other side of the barn, so the other side might not be red. A statement of truth often comes with an acknowledgement of what is unknown.
This is literally just if Freud wrote a book.
... *Drinks a long sip of alcohol.*
you need more cocaine too read this book if that is the case
CHUG CHUG CHUG CHUG
Pretty sure Freud wrote books.
@@Marcus1526 If Freud wrote a book about himself.
Also, Freud wasn't anti-gay, and it seems like thats a big part of this book.
Deep Thoughts With Heinlein, the timestamp collection for our unenlightened convenience:
3:24 Freudianism
4:39 Motivation
5:32 Cannibalism
7:51 Homosexuality
9:17 Pornography
11:34 Exhibitionism
12:32 Homosexuality 2: Electric Boogaloo
(seriously though Red, I think this is one of the funniest bits you've ever done)
Thank you I was actually looking for some timestamps for these.
@@wisdommanari6701 is that not a little suspishious? * hmm*
I'm stealing "Homosexuality 2: Electric Boogaloo" as the title of my memoir.
malkite2k noice hermitcraft refrence
Grian any?
'Deep thoughts with Heinlein' is like when a show has a designated cool character and they reach into a coat: You never know what the hell is gonna be pulled out.
Unfortunately, with Heinlein, half the time the result is just an unwanted flashing.
The fact that it's not framed as a horror story in a way makes it even more horrifying. Pity that wasn't on purpose.
1/8 of this book is “neat sci-fi”
Another 1/6 book is “dated 60’s beliefs that make me sad”
Last 1/2 is “I learned things about Heinlein I now wish I didn’t”
1/8+1/6+1/2
6/48+8/48+24/48
38/48
19/24
0.79165
I wonder where the other 20.835% went...
@@nymphrodellsalavin the other 20.835 went into making sure people still think this is a good book nearly 60 years later
@@redpup6931 :rofl:
Oops, discord emoji commands don't work on RUclips XD
@@nymphrodellsalavin Mike made it disappear ;)