It just occurred to me that the cube of the depths, possessed by gro-goroth's cultists, literally returns the sun to its peak and shifts temporal reality around it.
Fear and Hunger mode : What really happened in the eyes of the humans. Dungeon Nights mode : What Sun/sulfer/Gor gorth Thinks they are doing to help humans learn how to love Sylvian properly.
It's so weird how on first glance these games seem like little hardcore, immersive horror rpgs, but the more time you spend with it, the more you realize how complex they are. All these secrets, event triggers, story bits, alternative boss encounters etc. Always hard to imagine how one dude made these. The brutal combat system alone would make these games a worthy experience, but having all this on top which makes these games have a fleshed out world, is incredible!
Consider one interesting aspect of Alll-Mer: He's extremely pale and bald... just like a Marriage. Perhaps Alll-Mer had simply performed a Marriage with the Sun God.
Don't you see? An ascension is a marriage between an old god and a half-new god human. The two bodies and souls combine to become something totally different.
You missed one big piece of evidence that further confirms your theories. When fighting Valteil The Enlightened One, talking to him can sometimes give a question in which he refers to Gro-Goroth as the "original" god of destruction, implying that something came after the original.
@@ГригорийСоколов-ь6йNashrah is not a god like gro-goroth or sylvian he was granted a portion of Divine Power but he was originally human. The Old Gods Are Pure Born Concepts they never were mortals at ALL.
@@nobreluan4578Nasrah not being the old god doesn't really matter. Valteil consider himself and other new gods as god god, when he talk about Gro goroth as the original god he was talking what came before the new god
@@kozrak-kai8215 i know i know but is unlike that anyone might had replaced gro-goroth be old or New god. But only time Will tell. Still waiting for the next big update of termina🙏
I'd love if it turns out the lore of Fear and Hunter could be framed as a cosmic horror love story. "Husband (Gro-goroth) literally changes heaven, earth, and hell to address wife's (Sylvian) depression so she can be loved by her children (Humanity) as she loves them." Whether this is right or wrong, as someone who grew up on Lovecraft, I love the shift from early Fear and Hunger lore from "alien, in-humane knowledge" into this "alien knowledge you can potentially interpret through a humanistic lens" framing. To me it adds to the horror of the series because it results in multiple new readings that could possible be true at the same time despite contradictory beliefs. Some of my favorites are: 1) This is all pareidolia, anthropomorphizing these alien gods into human logic possible resulting in a more horrific fate if humanity follows their desires, and 2) The interpretation is real and the miserable cycle of suffering central to the setting has even the gods of the world running fruitless tasks despite their best efforts, fundamentally changing their being for the hope of returning to a by-gone era that can never return.
@@bryanl7587Idk, the middle age grimdark feel is so cool. I feel like the 3rd installment might be a techno apocalyptic or post apocalyptic in the vein of I have no mouth and I must scream. It’s cool how every installment can channel a different survivor horror vibe.
I think you're off about the Sun God's identity, but maybe you're half-right. See, the Sun is a force of both destruction and creation, a fire that burns itself, and in that burning creates life. A force that destroys and creates would be the result of a union between those two forces. I believe that the Sun God is the child of Gro-goroth and Sylvan. It would explain the similarity in rituals between the two, since sons will often imitate their fathers. But I think that perhaps the reason why things went wrong with the union of man and god is because Alll-Mer the man believed that the he knew how to take in the parts of the god he wanted and leave out the ones he didn't, and so began a ritual to cast the darker parts of himself away. But the problem with that is... nature abhors a vacuum. Instead of taking in only the best qualities of the god, he took in the worst and descended from the crucifix as a conqueror and destroyer instead of the benevolent savior he had planned to be. Alll-Mer is the best parts of a man mixed with the worst parts of a god. Thus, while he conquered and destroyed, Alll-Mer's actions were ultimately beneficial for humanity, lifting them into a more enlightened age, even if his means were violent. But there was another half, born of the best parts of a god, and the worst parts of a man. While a god can be terrible, though, it cannot hold a candle to the evil that dwells within the hearts of man. And after centuries in burning Sulphur, any good that might have once remained inside of that being has burned away. Further, while it is indicated that Gro-Goroth walks among men, a god wouldn't just be confined to the form of man. The black goat and the Man in Black share an identity, and claim a relation to both Sulphur and Alll-Mer, stating they watched as Alll-Mer created statues to embody Alll-Mer's dark side. But only a god could live long enough to have seen Alll-Mer. Thus, it is possible that the Man in Black is Gro-Goroth in disguise, using both his identity as the Man in Black and the black goat to obscure his true identity. This is why he's present at Termina: With Alll-Mer dead, Sulphur is the only son that Gro-Goroth has left, and he's using Termina as a chance to check in on his wayward son.
Okay but why would black kalev do the things he did in game? Black Kalev first and foremost cucks the woodman and drive’s his wife to suicide, so why do that if he’s so loving to his own wife?
Why everyone is ignoring the fact that Depth God's mouth is covered with sulfur??? I didnt made my theory yet but I think that birth of Sulfur God is somehow strongly connected with God of the Depths and it's mouth is such a big hint...
(This is not a refutation, this is merely a collection of information relevant to your theory) The symbol(you can see this in the mold apartments or at 5:53 in the video) for the sulfur god is two alchemical symbols combined, "🜂" which represents fire, and "🜍" which represents sulfur. So more accurately, this deity is not the sulfur god but the "burning sulfur god" or the "sulfur flame god" or "god of sulfur flames." This is important, because demons and other hellish or vile beings are often associated with fire or sulfur in folklore and literature, it reinforces the hell imagery nicely. It is _also_ important because sulfur produces blue flames when burnt, and the 3 primary sulfur cultists in game have blue marks marring their skin. The god of the depths is never associated with flames directly(it does nkt burst into flames or breathe fire), and in fact it is the patron/matron of many creatures which would naturally fear fire, such as insects and crows. Its dwelling of choice is a damp cavern and its design is based on a photograph of real ship wreckage. However, it is not _impossible_ for the god of the depths to be associated in some way with fire its black ooze(This ooze is replaced in the alchemical recipe with Oil in Termina.) is, in fact, used to create murky vials, which ignite upon contact with air(you know, when the glass breaks from you throwing the vial). But that may well be a result of the yellow vial component, it's not really clear. Yellow is associated with solid, non-burning sulfur, and the mushrooms we derive the yellow vials from in Termina are safely edible so it's honestly possibly a dead end?
Here’s the facts about F&H1 and how they tie into its sequel. 1. All the characters started the dungeon at different times within a small period of each other and chose different entrances -All Characters are Solo or temporarily form alliances with each other in various points of the dungeon to achieve their specific goals. 2. 3 of 4 S endings are canon -The Dark priest sat on the throne and rejected godhood before leaving -The Knight resurrected Le'gurd into the vampiric character in yellow we see in the Sequel (The Kaiser) - The Outlander took the Sword of the East and the Wolfhound and left the dungeon after finding Le'gurd dead (we find the wolfhound in the sequel and a descendant of the Outlander that confirms this) - The mercenary never made it out of the dungeon alive despite getting his hands on the treasure, only he was the one to take the girl into the Dark Below and witness her Ascension at the cost of his life due to her acknowledgement of his suffering. 3. The God of Fear and Hunger was born during the events of F&H1 and was crucial to the progression of Humanity leading to the events of the sequel. 4. The only “happy” ending is finding Le’gurd still alive (or knocked out) before the 30min time limit and escorting him to the Golden Throne to get the “God in Yellow” ending where God Le’gurd brings forth a new golden age for all of mankind. But since Le'gurd is ALWAYS dead on hard mode and that’s where all the S endings are, the “God in Yellow” ending is non-canon.
I just realised, Alll-mer became a ascended god by dying, which is what gor-goroth is a death god And the little girl ascended by getting in the deepest pits of darkness in the old god So ascending might be different depending on the god If there was an ascended sylvion god Then it would have to be created by love or life in some way maybe
Logic is without a doubt the Ascended Sylvian God. Ending A cemented that idea to me. In the union of people and the mutual act of creation the god Logic is created. The Ending art even is reminiscent of Sylvian's early experiment with man, that mass union (orgy in Sylvian's case).
@@TheEnmineer But I think that Logic was made by Sacrificing nature. I say this cuz of the cube that has a crossed off Vinushka sigil, that is on Logic/Reila chest.
The Ancient Book, also known as the Testament of Gro-goroth, shows not just his current symbol but three others as well. One of them being the God of the Depths where his traces are found. I don't believe this is coincidence - I think the whole story is just a love story about Gro-goroth and Sylvian reincarnating. But when an old god is rebirthed, it exists at all points of time and history. So one of the forms they took were the paired sun and moon, opposites meant to be together. Pocketcat, in his F&H1 book says "humankind purses the same goals persistently. If I were to get the moon itself to you, would you give up on your quest...?"" If you respond yes, he responds "That would make me happy. The moon would be thankful as well naturally." While a little gross, why would it make the moon happy for "love" to be shown? Because Rher is one incarnation of Sylvian, hopeful that mankind will give up their ambitions of godhood and return the love she has shown. Love that has changed from being the ever present Sylvian, to the ever watchful moon in the sky. (Perhaps this is why her traces are in the void, a moon like space?)
It definitely makes more sense given you "show love" to the Sylvian symbol to restore lost limbs in Termina, and in 1st game only the jellyfish lady can do that (in exchange for the girl) certainly leaving me to speculate that's another aspect of her "traces" which can actually speak. Do her traces speak to you if you beat her in the void like Grogoroth does?
something I wondered is if the God Of The Depths is aligned in any way to any of the other old gods, or if it's an entirely separate entity. while I kinda hoped it'd be it's own thing, I can definitely see it being destruction-aligned. because after all, you find traces of Gro-Goroth down there, but also because the Depths/the dungeons are all consuming. they fill you with a desperate urge to consume and eat, and destroys your mind and body. since it's confirmed the Dungeons are Depths' body, it makes sense. and to add onto your theory, if Gro-Goroth is associated with descending, going downwards, then why wouldn't Sylvian as his antithesis be upwards?
@@dhampir_days I didn't think about the consuming part but consumption is just another facet of destruction. I think both of your points add credence to the ying-yang theory of Sylvian and Gro-Goroth. Even the mythology of ying-yang seems to mirror parts of the game, such as the pale green hue. Now I just need to fill the holes of Vinishka, since he breaks the reincarnation cycle, and why it seems like world events have huge parts in the concept changes of their supposed reincarnations.
Personally i don't think Rher is a reincarnation of Slyvian. Because all through out FH1 and 2. Rher is always refer as 'He', even the New Gods refer Rher as 'He'. And the greatest aspect of Rher is Truth and Deceit. While Sylvian is Love and Creations. Sulfur and Gro-Goroth share similar traits. They always take sacrifice as a show of Devotions, both is very Warlike and both is almost the same 1:1 aspect in a senses. But Rher and Sylvian is diffrent. Sylvian always loves and toys with Humanity even tho her loved is twisted. While Rher dgf about Humanity, Rher views of humans is not hatreds or disdain but a very lack of interest, Rher sees human as underneath him, Like how Human sees Ants. Thats why theres almost none of Rher influence outside of Termina and his followers is view but centralized, and he only make a moves when The Girl is born and Termina happens. And like i mention, Sylvian conduct in the lore is far from Deceit, she always sincerly try to make humanity loves her again even how twisted the methods were. But Rher unlike other old gods relies on Truth and Deceits. He doesn't need to hide from Human like other Old Gods, this implies that he doesn't care of Humanity if they realize or found out that he always was there in the first places. So yeah, for me Sylvian is not Rher. Just like how Earth is made from the Gods of Depth it needed Rher as a Moon to watch over Humanity.
@@OreWaLavai Could you like give a source for that? One of them had to have taken the girl to become the god of fear and hunger. I’d like all S endings to be canon but like, it creates a plot hole unless its a retcon or something
@@slysamuel5902 I replied but it seems to have disappeared. Basically I’ve seen many people claim Miro said all S endings are canon, and there’s a reddit post that states as such, however I’ve never seen any hard evidence of Miro having said it. That being said the reddit post that says it does explain how it could be possible. There isn’t really any plotholes, it’s easily retconned once you realise a plathrough of the game isn’t representative of the lore in a strict sense of the word.
I noticed a connection between All-mer and Gro-Goroth that is very obvious in hindsight. That being the spells that the respective god can teach. Gro-Goroth teaches the spells Hurting, Black Oorb, Black Smog, Necromancy and Blood Golem. All of these are related to Gro-Goroth's domain of death and destruction.But only Blood Golem is a spell related to Blood Magic: Gro-Goroths gift to mankind. Now notice that all the spells that All-mer teaches are Blood Magic: Blood portal, Blood sword and inverse crown of thorns.
its worth noting that in chemistry, sulfur bonds with iron to form fool's god, the false gold. While the end pursuit of alchemy is the attainment of the spiritual gold. With all the figures wearing yellow in both games and their pursuit of ascension, perhaps the one pulling the strings from the background is that god of false gold?
By what is said in this video isn't it safe to assume Rher is just Sylvian? This would explain pocketcats "Rubbing" acts and indecent behavior as is common with Sylvian, the masks in the museum as representing both gods in their new state instead of just "Rher"/Vinushka and Gro-goroth, which wouldn't make much sense. This could also explain the obsession moon-spawns have with children, and the ritual of Termina is closely related with the "death of innocence" it could either mean a possible attempt at a marriage by Sylvian herself or the relation of a "purity of blood" that is related with virgins and children in historical tellings, which would possibly speed up the reconstruction of the Sulfur God. Also the Termina event itself is a great contribution to it, since there is a lot of bloodshed involved, at least in the one shown in the game, but i wouldn't doubt the last ones weren't a battle royale as well, which also could be the meaning of the phrase "death of innocence" as in casting your innocent side apart and joining the Sulfur pits.
Maybe there's something to that . . . Gro-Goroth is a masculine-coded god. Sylvian is the feminine. Sun and Moon. Man and Woman. _Thematically_ it works. But I don't have any substantiation for this idea. Gro-Goroth is a metaphor for masculinity. A personal epiphany of mine is that I feel like myself, and a lot of men I've known, would take to Gro-Goroth worship with a "hell yeah." Gro-Goroth worship is both outwardly and inwardly destructive. And the attitude of the Dark Priests and Yellow Mages are a very cynical "sigma grindset" mentality characterized by self-denying asceticism and a lust for power -- a tradition which Marina breaks from symbolically by being a trans woman who embraces femininity. She snidely criticizes her father for being inwardly miserable and anti-fun. That despite all his power, he's an unhappy man incapable of anything other than hurling abuse. Nash'rah is a foul-mouthed dick. But he's _our_ dick. Because there's something ultimately appealing about his honesty and aggressive spirit, in spite of his Gro-Goroth destructiveness. He is also running this MGTOW grindset cult on the side. O'saa and he both understand the score. They're just using each other to get what they want. O'saa is happy enough to throw Nash'rah into a lake the moment he doesn't need him anymore. And throughout the game O'saa acts in a way that contributes to his alienation. He blocks you from advancing by doing the Yellow Mage thing and his back story reveals that he left his family and "killed" himself inside metaphorically by doing so -- for sentimentality is a weakness for Yellow Mages. Enki himself echoes this character journey, with the first ritual in his life dueling his twin sister to the death with ritual knives. Surrender and sentiment has no place amongst the Dark Priests either. That said, I cannot put myself in the Sylvian mindset. Partly because there are so few examples of her cultists in the games. Partly because I just don't get the "feminine" upbringing and mentality. We have plenty to go on where Gro-Goroth is concerned, but much less on the nature of Sylvian or what her cults might look like.
Not a big fear and hunger fan but: Rhea Sylvia, the mother of Romulus and Remus, sounds similar to Rher and Sylvian. There aren’t any other strong similarities or connections I can see, though.
Doesn't the fact that Gro-goroth's symbol is the eclipse imply that Rher actually has some involvement in this process as well? After all an eclipse only occurs when the sun and moon come together, right?
I have zero evidence for this, but what if rher involved himself in the death of gro-goroth? He doesn't want us to be gods right? Maybe he knew doing this would be ultimately detrimental to to that cause somehow.
@@MYTHONICS well my theory now is that Gro-goroth is actually a combination of the hateful sun god and the playful moon god which is the only way I can think to explain that he is both the "destroyer of men" who demands human sacrifices and a "curious god" who disguises himself as a human and bestows blessings upon them
I think Sylvian and Gor-Gorgoroth were the two original old gods who sired many other old gods: The god nature, The god of the sun, and the god of the moon
My strange theory that the Sulfur God and Logic are mirror images of Grogoroth and Sylvian is less and less absurd. If Sulfur is indeed the rebirth of Grogoroth, then Logic may be a reflection of the Sylvian. She loved people, but they couldn't love her. It is enough to admit only one detail - "Return to the Green Hue", this is not the unity of the gods in their original world, but their death, as it turns out that Sylvian is also dead. And what could she do before her final death? Follow your lover and be reborn. What am I talking about? SYLVIANE CULTISTS are fighting on Kaiser's side, AND LIVING TANK, LITERALLY, HYDRA. Everything suggests that Logic (the fusion of people whom Sylvian loved) is her rebirth. Like the God of Sulfur, who is saturated with the souls of people. Two "artificial" Old Gods. The question is what's wrong with Rher. But it seems to me that what little remains of him will become / has become part of Sulfur. Like Deps' became FearAndHunger.
I'm not totally conviced. This theory relies a lot on "what if X is actually Y" and while I don't nessicarily think that's a bad arguement in a world where so many things are uncertain, I'd like to craft a theory that tries to tie together the things we are literally told. Which, I admit, does seem to hold less water, but I want to try anyway. I'll admit, I've thought a lot about it and I'm not sure I have a proper theory, more like the edges of one, but one I'd like others to comment on and take a crack at. Two things in particular bother me: The Body of All-Mer and Ossa's comment in the church. Starting with the Latter, if Na'hasrah and the Yellow Mages were aware of the lore of sulfer, Ossa wouldn't make a comment about the lack of All-Mer in the church. The fact he has the head and no comment is made while playing as him reinforces the idea to me that Sulfer is something distinct from All Mer, not an imposter wearing his mantle. To reinforce that, All Mer's body is intact in the past but reduced to bones in the future. I think the parallels between All Mer and L'garde are important. In the propechy ending, both are gods of humanity that conquer the world to change the world order. However, in D'arce's ending this propecy is perverted, and the chosen one is brought back as a violent creature of blood, shedding the skin (and presumably bones) of the body. I beleive that All-Mer was a god, who holds influence over the world, but who in excising his own evil had his apsotles desecrate his body with the Revival Spell. They then took the violent blood creature that climbed from his body and put it on the Throne of Ascension, casting it into the the void. This creature, born of the body of a god and cast into the void, would become Sulfer, and it's inherited connection to All Mer's power would cause it to lash out against the very thing All Mer loved most, Mankind. As we know, time is a very fickle thing in Fear and Hunger. The Ascension of New Gods overlap horribly, with the cube of the depths keeping the moment of Asencion locked in place. Old gods who ascend have always existed, even though to the limited human mind there was a point where they didn't. The void clearly operates in a leauge of it's own, with centuries passing between you and L'garde sitting on the throne only seconds apart. Sulfer did not exist when All Mer died, being made sometime after when the party finds the Skeleton of All Mer, but he has also always exisited, and never existed, essentially unmoored from time. Again, I'm just on the edge of something here, thoughts are appricated.
I don't think they're aware of the Sulfur secret, they don't even know his name. I think that because Nashrah is unknowingly copying the story of Alll-Mer and failing at it, probably due to Sulfur having control over humanity's subconscious. A conqueror from the east attaining great power and making a violent cult to worship him then getting scorched and buried is straight out of Sulfur's playbook
I wonder if Sylvian is based on Tiamat, both are mothers who through their love, leniency and grief creates monsters. They also share the sea monster motif.
i dont know how this just occured to me but grogoroth shares a TON of beliefs with of all things odin. a one eyed god king with powerful magic, strong blood associations, worship through sacrifices, walking the nine worlds as a man, and having a son (baldur) who is strongly associated with death and light? i feel like im reaching a little but those are some pretty neat parallels.
Ok just finished the video great one just wanted to add/ask some things. -Wouldn't you say that the ecplise, the confirmed symbol of Gro-goroth puts at least equal importance to the aspect of the moon ? What would be the connection here ? -Osas when entering the church by the way he speaks seems to imply that Alll-Mer does exist just that this church defo isn't one of his (at least that's how I understood it) As such this is how I would view the timeline : human All-Mer and Gro-goroth fusion with human All-Mer, both dying on the cross -> traces of Gro-goroth appear -> All-Mer's mind gets bested and Gro-goroth starts posing as All-Mer -> Gro-goroth travels across the world spreading his faith in "All-Mer" form. In europa, africa, the east everywhere. -> He then dies again for various reasons ( your theory about trying to remove the All-Mer remains in him make sense ) -> By his influence as god of the dead, he still maintains a strong influence on the real world, even while dead, as Sulfur. OR Sulfur is the traces left after the death of Gro-goroth in his All-mer form. -> Now waiting for Sylivan to ressurect him fully. He spreads his influence again through europa only this time and thus shapes once again the new religion, this time as a sulfur cult in the west and a more "All-mer" religion remains in the other regions he didn't visit again. This would then explain why All-mer's influence and Sulfur's influence can both exist at the same time. We can imagine that Osas coming from the East would have known only the religions and influence when Gro-goroth was on his All-Mer form while the rest of the cast and all of Europa knew All-mer in his Sulfur form.
@@MYTHONICSwell it looks like even dead gods are still sentient so he could be dead but still present , thst might be why the sins still their another peice of gor-goroth just hanging their.
Fear and hungry for lore videos! Since I got introduced F&H, I knew playing wasnt for me, but I was hooked on the story and world building. Love the lore and really appreciate your videos and streams. Thank you for the new video!
Same! I haven't played yet (and I'm too cowardice to play it) but I'm really enjoying the lore and everything else! I've also thought that I'll buy the game just for the sake of appreciating the amazing solo dev behind this masterpiece.
Im not a lore expert but i think there's something to le'garde being resurrected skinless and going on a violent conquest, and alll mer ascending/ resurrecting and going on a violent conquest to re establish old god worship. Maybe the spell mimics a weaker version of whatever ritual lead to the sulphur god
The fact that the Logic uses healing magics, was guarded by a Sylvian cultist in the form of the bunny trooper, and brings the player into a dimension of one united spiritual humanity all connected and always together, makes me think there's merit to the idea that the Sulfur God is a re-incarnated Gro-Goroth; putting those clues together with the idea that gods will die and then return could mean the Logic is a resurrected Sylvian. They expressly state in the games that true gods such as the original pantheon cannot ever truly die, but will come back in one way or another since they are ideas or concepts, and therefore are abstractions. If Gro-Goroth died and then was brought back in the form of All-Mer/Sulur, and GotD was brought back as GoF&H, Sylvian would then be the only dead god that needs to make their comeback. Also with each iteration there is a difference from the original form: Gro-Goroth being returned via flawed magic brought through desperation made him more vile, GotD being returned via magic that was a product of human aspiration made them more present in the minds of said humans who imagined the means to bring them back, so Sylvian being brought back by a god in hiding and a human population that largely treats science as the new magic would therefore make their new form physically artificial. The Logic needed a female sacrifice in order to give her a vessel, after all. The realm that we initially thought was Rher's dimension is under construction, seemingly being built in real time as the machine god herself is also being built, and when the Logic is finally awake during their boss fight, she takes you to that same dimension.
the issue there is that we don't know if Sylvian is dead or not, but if you apply that idea to Vinushka instead then it makes a lot of sense. Vinushka as the God of Enlightenment and, say, Landscape rather than nature means that Logic is primed to take over that position
Funnily enough this does also contain a lot of coincidences with what could be another of Alll-mer's real life Inspirations; Horus. In pretty much all of his interpretations his Right eye contained the Sun, and his Left eye, The Moon, he eventually loses an Eye on his quest of Revenge, this is interpreted as the darkening of the moon, either during its natural phases or possibly an eclipse. Eventually he becomes King of the Nile and ruler of Egypt on The Valley of Kings after succeeding on its Quest The things is there's also similar things the Sun god shares with Horus's rival, Set, who was often depicted in the late periods with a Donkey head (not exactly a horse head but close enough). And also more Gro Goroth's seeing as Set was often seen as the God of chaos and violence, but also with Foreigners and Exoticism. its also interesting when you consider the Greek equivalents for them often being the god of the Sun Apollo (Horus) and Typhoon the Serpentine-being of Destruction (Set) Continuing on the whole matter of Horus vs Set it so happens that most versions actually end up on Set and Horus actually coming to an agreement to divide the land between (altho in some Set just becomes embarassed for eating funny mayo salad and growing a bunch of eyes on its body so he fucks off to the desert forever lol), however in other interpretations both of them "reconcile" setting apart their dualities and Horus becomes the Sole Ruler to Unite the lands of Egypt into a Whole This may be a gigantic far reach considering there's also a lot of shit on the "Contendings of Set and Horus" that just straight up don't fit with the whole narrative of F&H obv. But still thought could be some referential tidbits from Real life on how Alll-mer eventually became the King of Ma'Havre and ascended into Godhood eventually becoming the destined "Ruler of humanity" if only for a time. Idk its just fun to speculate about where Miro may have taken inspiration to built upon all the Lore, great video as the Sulfur god's one. I hope you plan on doing some digging about Rher next because i wanna know what you can dig about that creepy weirdo ass moon that drives people crazy and turns people into Cat-men
I have one more small piece of evidence to add to the pile, though you dont need it do you? This was very convincing on its own! In father donnivans house, the floor is littered with his notes on ma'habre, and its king. Each paper says something different. In the top half of the house mear the hexen table one says "The sulfur sun appears in the texts frequently, but i do not think thats the sun referred to in the carvings [note: the carbings referenced are cavings donnovan saw in ma'habre, or men gathering under the sun] A sun that blazes underground does not match with the passages" So, youre right, the sun god was king of ma'habre, and sulfurnwas borne of its union. The sun changed, and donnovan discovered it.
This is a fantastic video! I love your emphasis on snappy corroborations with in-game evidence. There is one small thing- at 8:05 ...... Those aren't staffs in the statues' hands.
something thats not addressed enough in fiction is aspects of gods - multiple versions of single gods that share power - if not being equal yet seperate in power - that have similar or overlapping domains, but vary in specifics or personality. I also think that the God of Fear and Hunger and Sulfur are best considered aspects of the Depths and Gro-Goroth respectively. their domains have great overlap with the gods "killed" for their ascension, but are specific enough to not fully encapsulate the old gods. Fear and Hunger has the domain of... well. fear and hunger. which is part of what the Depths represents, but isnt all of it. Sulfur is the god of hateful death and destruction, whereas Gro-Goroth is a god of destruction, without malice or cruel intent. and i think the difference between old and ascended gods is the human element. because destruction is antithetical to existence and an inevitability for humans, it makes sense that the ascended representation of the same god would be so cruel, as the human element of the ascended god prescribes an all too human morality to the god, as humanity attempts to understand the concept of a god beyond the very concept of morals
And here I am naively thought that after video about Sulfur God there's nothing left. These connections to the Logic, Samarie, Sylvian and whole Gro-goroth's ideas are mindblowing. Thanks for your crazy amount of efforts, never fails to entertain!
These videos are absolutely top-notch. Your overall interpretation makes so much sense. Idk, when you 1st see the sigil of the God of the Depths in F&H1, there is a smaller inverted pentagram within the sigil. I always found that weird. But, with your explanation of Allmer and Sulfur, it makes sense. Sulfur won control of the psychological Depths. The shadow took over. You give the absolute best explanation of these difficult games
If the god fusion theory holds correct. The ending C's yellow king could be a rebirthed Silvian, considering his love for humanity and admission that Legarde is dead (Similar to Alll-mers true fate). He also appears to be something other than a new god, and actually leads humanity to prosperous age. What better way to love humanity than to reduce yourself to the form of a human yourself? Furthermore, Silvians traces are seen near the Yellow King in masomode.
In F&H2, one of the bosses you fight before Kaiser, who's very heavily implied to be Le'garde, is also called the Sylvian Trooper and even has a head that looks as though it has bunny ears. This could further add to this theory.
Your theory is very interesting, and I think you may be right on this one. I always found it weird that both Gro-goroth cultists and Sulfur cultists were mindlessly killing people for unknown reasons. Now, if theses gods were the same, it explains it simply and without too much reasoning as well (Occam's Razor).
The Traces of Groggy say that humans cannot properly perceive an old god so perhaps that could be a reason for him wanting to shed his mortal skin, since otherwise he might not be able to see his lover.
This was a fantastic video! The way Sylvian is included in this is…kind of tragic, in a way? I’m really interested in learning more about the relationship between her and Gro-goroth in future installments of Fear and Hunger, especially with this in mind. Now, if I remember correctly, in the last video you suggested that the horse was the animal symbol of the sun god. Does that still apply here? After all, Gro-goroth has the wolf mask cultists from the first game. I was thinking about that ever since you first brought him up in this video.
What about the connection of Grogoroth/Sulfurs connection to Rehr, an eclipse is moon and sun. Sulfur was also seen as lier/trickster(tricking the whole world) like Rher. The termina Festival also has ties to Rehr and Sulfur.
Uh, mauthe, the statues in the tombs are not holding snake staffs lol. Its a.... different kind of staff, still made from wood tho. You might want to look closer.
You explored in your previous video about many of the IRL historical influences that played a role in forming Funger's lore (primarily the lore and faith of the gnostics). A lot of Gro-goroth's rituals and lore follow a lot of the ritual murder traditions from across human history. The Aztecs are the most obvious influence in this particular case regarding historical people making human sacrifices to placate a solar deity (another common deity to sacrifice people to was also a fertility goddess). The sun god in many pantheons is usually seen as the king of that pantheon. You *touched* on it discussing the coin, but where things get particularly interesting is when you look at how many aspects and practices seen in Christianity were coopted from rituals and practices found in pagan religions; particularly their sun gods. For example, Christmas celebrating Jesus of Nazareth's birth was the sun god's birth celebration. This was used to help spread Christianity and make it 'click' with peoples and cultures that were previously pagan and in the process of conversion. So interestingly, Alll-mer ascending via Gro-Goroth and GG regaining power as Sulfur via the faith in Alll-mer in an intersting way almost mirrors in history the 'old sun god' becoming the 'god of man' (a title given to God/Jesus throughout the Bible). Just some more food for thought that makes sense with what you're laying down. EDIT: Oh also, Jesus was seen as God sacrificing himself/his own son (Christianity is wild) for the salvation of mankind. Being able to go to heaven is the ability to 'be with God.' GG sacrificing himself for man's ascension starts to make for a good theory when pinned against the real world influences Funger pulls from.
I like the video, in my personal opinion though even though I completely agree with the sulfur theory this one is not really supported by the evidence you provide, it takes a lot of extra logic to connect the dots. But still, great video and it's always fun to explore possibilities.
I think it's very compelling. But we know sulfur is described as malicious, and his worship involves suffering. and gro'goroth is explicitly.....not. Gro'goroth isn't malicious, and takes no interest in suffering, he simply destroys. It could of course simply be that the things all'mer gave gro'goroth in defeat were the parts of his humanity he sought so hard to destroy knowing he'd be taking on the soul of the destroyer.
maybe these gods work on hinduism rules, where certain gods are all aspects of other gods. so the sun god is gro-goroth, but gro-goroth is not the sun god.
@@MYTHONICS that's when humans use blood magic and humans don't understand grogoroth and therefore don't really understand destruction, it's not that grogoroth is malicious, people just view destruction as malicious
Great video! What is your opinion about the importance of the Vatican in Termina and in the universe of Fear and Hunger itself? Considering that a portion of the characters have some direct or indirect connection to this place, and that the place itself is mentioned several times, it seems to be the epicenter of something big. Maybe even the stage for a possible Fear and Hunger 3? Honestly, a sequel set in the Vatican with a focus on new gods based on the Horsemen of the Apocalypse would be interesting, after all, we already have one of the Horsemen, don't we? The horseman of famine, or rather, the horseman of fear and hunger. I may be hallucinating, but in the Bible the pestilence is the first horseman and he comes riding a white horse, in Termina the scenario is a city affected by the "pestilence" of the moon, and during the game there are several dead white horses scattered on the map, there are no horses of any other color, even the centaur is white. Does this sound like a prelude to something bigger or am I crazy?
If you're watching lore videos about an obscure god in an obscure game series then yes, I'd say you're crazy The games thus far have focused on places that are out of the way, so assuming 3 follows that trend then it probably won't be in the Vatican. It would be cool to visit there though
You are going crazy. I'm one of the voices in your head. THEYRE COMING. QUICK. Leave all your milk out overnight and then drink a big cup. That's the only way to stop them. If you start to poop uncontrollably that's only your new powers starting to form. Also don't forget to brush your teeth.
How do we know for certain that Alll-Mer worship in Europa is all actually Sulphur worship? Wouldn't people at large notice the gorey blood sacrifices? How could this be a secret if it was so widespread? Are we sure this wasn't specific to Prehevel? Or at the very least not representative of the entirety of Europan Alll-Mer worship? I always assumed the Sulphur god was exactly what he was described to be: the cast-away parts of Alll-Mer's psyche. Thats the symbolism behind the sculptures the Man in Black talks about, right? I definitely think Sulphur worship has "infected" the Europan church, but I dont fully buy this idea that the Sulphur god switched places with Alll-Mer. At least not without more evidence.
Worth noting that while Gro-Goroth spoting it's accessory Sulfur itself is more feminine in stature, that could reference Adam Kadmon and/or the Kthonic Men. Presence of such concepts would also explain how and Depth God(s) linked to killing and sacrificing their fellows. Also as you said Sylvian does refer to merging of two being into one alot and that could be a final goal for her and Gro-Goroth. Ascension composed of a lesser and greater entity but it's not necessarily the only way it could go. The "roadmap" somewhat checks out if you willing to stretch it - they go at it once and Vynnushka comes out, twice and there is Sulfur, thrice and, well, we don't know this one gonna go yet.
Part 1. I feel at this point its clear enough to speculate that what the Sulfer God is looking for is a host to revive into the land of the living, finding candidates by seeing if they are worthy to decend into the sulfer pits and taking in all of Sulfers anger, hatred, and evil. Those that fail become cultists, those that succeed become the host.
Part 2. I believe Daan is the most likely candidate to become the Sulfer God's host. Daan's entire life has been manipulated by a higher being, his parents being Sylvian cultist led to him being adopted by the Dutch family, and that connection to Sylvian led to the Dutch family discovering Sulfer and dieing leading Daan to the Termina festival.
Part 3. Pocket Cat has had a vested interest in Daan for a long time, it's speculated that it's because Daan has the Blank Soul which must be a requirement for Pocket Cat to switch hosts and continue surviving, but I think its because Daan has the potential of ascension by becoming Sulfer's host. I believe that the Blank soul is the perfect vessel to contain all of Sulfers evil, and considering the life Daan has lived is perfect candidate to fall under the influence of Sulfer. Pocket Cat being a true creation/follower of Rher is trying to fulfill his masters will and stop another ascension like he did in the previous F&H, by way of influencing Daan to accept Pocket Cats deal of possessing him. After all Pocket Cat can't directly interfere with people other than making deals with them.
Hi Mauthe Doog! Something else that goes well with the themes of the horse and the beheadment is the greek mythology pegasus. I realized the constellation on the horse statue is for pegasus. Pegasus was also born from Medusa's severed neck when she was beheaded. Maybe it's to thematically show something needs to die to rise even greater? That's why sulfur needs so many sacrifices? Maybe that's why there's also so many snake statues? Something to consider.
Something about the safe, good, grounding Jesus figure of Alll’mer having never existed at all is, for some reason, most viscerally terrifying to me than anything else I’ve seen about this game so far
The first video felt much more consistent and believable but I can't help but feel this one is more disjointed and far-fetched. But still just a feeling. It's a fun theory and video regardless. Good work.
Doing casual research about Perkele, it says to be considered as original name of Ukko, the thunder God from Estonian/Finnish/Sami mythology. It's also funny coincidence that the God symbol is also upside down cross just like Sulfur god.
Awesome theory and incredibly well made video. Love your stuff man, you keep me motivated to always try a new playthrough with a different character. F&H is one of my favorite game series of all time at this point.
Listening to this video for a second time after watching new kids on the block cover Fear and Hunger lore, and this still stands as the best and most cohirent lore video series for F&H
Also the music you hear when you fight Perkele is called Alll-mer Bells giving more credence to the idea that Alll-mer and Sulphur are one and the same.
I love the theory and think you're absolutely onto something, my only hesitations or questions would be: - The reptiles/blights link to the void, as well as to being the previous ruler of Mahabre. Of note, they are cold blooded creatures that would've thrived under a sun god, and with its absence and the cold that follows, would necessarily be driven out, but we do see yellow lizardmages using Gor's magic - I am a bit unclear who you are claiming the god in the pit is based on this? - Someone else has pointed this out, but the Sun-Eclipse Sigil-Moon are v connected. It is possible that there is an independent sun god that was manipulated (and all-merr himself as well) by Gor'goroth into becoming sulfur. My other theory would be that if there is an All'mer-Sulfur relationship, if there is a Rher-Sun relationship as well
One possibility of the eclipse sigil, I think, would be that Rher- given that an eclipse is generally caused by the moon passing between the sun and earth or vise versa, so it's possible that Gor'goroth manipulated All-merr into stealing the sun god's power during an early termina; or otherwise relied on dissonance between the sun and moon to set this plan in motion. I don't think Rher would have ever willingly aligned with the humans, and I think it's a safe bet that the "King of Mahabre" favored the lizards
It's also of note, and more evidence I would think, the people of Abyssonia widely distrusted the old gods and viewed them as extraterrestrials and only recently has their worship come into favor; despite them having made up most of the early new gods. This would make sense in line with your theory if they knew that the Sun God was one of Mahabre's lizard deities and that All-merr had fallen in line with them.
One thing I don't get tho: if All-mer reborned and Sulfur are the same, why is the body of All-mer (29:26) missing its left eye, while Sulfur (27:18) is missing its right one?
Mau I think the Sun God in this series is supposed to be a reference to Hashem, the Jewish God. Someone might've beaten me to it here, but Hashem was both the god that Jesus (Alll-mer) derived from and uses fire as allegory (Hebrew symbols are considered to be 'of flame' in Judaism). It doesn't change much in the grand scheme of things, but it fits your puzzle well.
A new thought on this. All-mer and Sulfer are not seperate entities but different aspects of one god that do different jobs. All-mer is the god of man and is there to shepard humanity. Sulfer is the king of Mahabre; overseeing the incomong spirits and the afterlife. Kind of like the left and right hands of this singular being. It all relates back to the core but the left and right hand perform functions independant of each other. Thus it may seem like they are different entities but this is not the case. It is one being simply dividing its attention. It is overseeing the complete cycle towards its goal from both sides of it. This may be why there seems to be some strange blending of the two going on. The core may be getting confused which traits are neccessary to each aspect to do its job. Thus it may be that there are times and places where the aspects actually become fully flipflopped. So we come to the big question. What is the core? Well, I agree with Mauthe that it is probably Gor-gorath. He is still trying to mold humanity into beings that can understand and return his beloved's love. But is using the human persona gained by merging with the human All-mer to give him the understanding neccessary to help guide humanity. And Sulfer is the one that expresses his displeasure at how willful humanity is being by punishing them in death. And as time goes by some of that is bleeding together as Gor-gorath loses patience. What you think?
¡Gracias! But my problem with your theory is that the sulfur god who we see is in a cage according perkeke. It seems what he is somewhat powerless, a kind to the devil in diviny comedy. He cant be the center of word plotting yet
Thanks! The nature of the gods as beings that reshape reality means he's a lot stronger that his form makes him seem, plus he has his cult and other followers doing his will. We don't know a lot of specifics about him at the moment so maybe we'll find out his exact goals in the future...
I think you're definitely on the right track with a lot of your theories, but there is one small thing that bothers me. If I understand correctly, an ascension sacrifices an Old God in order to create a new god. The God of Fear and Hunger sacrificed The God of the Depths to fuel its ascension, correct? But I thought that The God of the Depths was already dead even before the ascension happened? IIRC there are lines in F&H1 that state that what's at the bottom of the Dungeons is just what's left of what was once the God of the Depths, a husk of its former self. It seemed to be implying that the God of the Depths had already died (or perhaps already left the human world) and what was left was only traces of its former self. Yet this power is what was used to fuel the God of Fear and Hunger's ascension. I don't think an old god in its entirety is strictly required to fuel an ascension. The Old Gods are simply so unfathomably powerful that, combined with the power of a New God, even their traces are powerful enough to create an Ascended God. It doesn't necessarily mean your theories are wrong, but it does potentially throw a wrench in the implication that Gro-goroth died in order to create Alll-mer (Sulfur God). Is it possible that the reason Ma'habre was overtaken by Alll-mer (Sulfur God) is because Gro-goroth grew disgusted with humanity as his traces said, left the human world, and Vitruvia used the traces of what was left of Gro-goroth to make Alll-mer, who then took over the now unoccupied throne? I think there isn't enough information given to assume that Gro-goroth was killed or sacrificed himself to fuel Alll-mer's ascension, or even that his plan all along was to create something representing humanity that was capable of loving Sylvian as much as she loved them. Considering Gro-goroth's contempt for humanity and MO for being the God of destruction and human sacrifices, I find it hard to believe that he cared about Sylvian's desire that much to sacrifice himself for humanity, or that Vitruvia and humanity somehow found a way to slay an Old God. Sure, Gro-goroth mated with Sylvian, but was there actually love between them? Or at least, if there was love, was it strong enough for Gro-goroth to willingly sacrifice himself for something he hated? If an ascension doesn't necessarily consume the Old God's power in the process but simply combines the powers and creates two byproducts, an Ascended God and a husk, then I don't think it's unreasonable to think that even the traces of an Old God are strong enough to fuel an ascension and what's left over is simply an even weaker version of those traces. After all, traces of the God of the Depths still exist in the world even after Alll-mer was created, otherwise how would anyone be able to use any magic associated with it? I would think that once those traces finally fade out of existence or are used up in some way, then its magic will become inaccessible and unusable. Perhaps what's currently left is too weak to fuel something like an ascension, but certainly enough that the God of the Depths' power still lingers in the world.
I don't know, a lot of these connections are well researched, but the end result just doesn't sit right with me from a worldbuilding/narrative perspective. Two gods that are really three gods but really just one god? Doing all of this to please his lover when the intentions of each "aspect" seem so radically different in objective? I can't think of any direct evidence to refute it off the top of my head, which is credit to your skill of finding all these puzzle pieces, but I can't see this being where F&H3 will bring us next imo.
So one point regarding ascension you mentioned in the Lore of Sulfur video I had a realization over: I think your conclusion over the God of the Depths' symbols combining to make the God of Fear & Hunger's could just as easily apply to Gro-goroth and Alll-mer, if Gro-goroth is indeed the missing sun god. You proposed the theory that the sun god willingly sacrificed himself to give birth to the ascended god, and if you look at Sulfur's symbol, it's the combination of a cross, Alll-mer's symbol, as well as two triangles layered over one another, one small and one big, similar to Gro-goroth's symbol. And though Gro-goroth's is two rings instead of two triangles, if your conclusion of the Ascended Gods' symbols is to be believed, then the Old God's symbol either doesn't have to be in the exact same state, or perhaps the Old God's symbol is changed to show the merging with a new being. God of the Depths's symbol is a crude-looking backwards R, while the God of Fear & Hunger's symbol is two Rs mirrored in front of each other, looking as though they were written more cleanly. Similarly, Gro-goroth's symbol is two rings overlapping each other yet has those three lines on the outside of the larger circle, while Sulfur's signal is the combination of a cross and two overlapping triangles, that look to be drawn much cleaner than Gro-goroth's circles, and if you wanted to, you could even look at the three lines on his original symbol to have possibly formed both the line running down the middle of the bigger triangle, as well as the cross, that would then move on to symbolize Alll-mer, similar to how the God of the Depths gained a new symbol in the form of the forward-facing R from the God of Fear & Hunger's symbol.
I'm shocked it took me so long to watch this. This is by far the most interesting theory I've heard about these games, and it makes all the pieces we've been given about the gods line up so well. Good shit
I wouldn't be surprised if Fear and Hunger 3 starts or ends with our world as we understand it - feels like the events of both games are about building gnostic explanations for both our shared terrain and things that have happened to our own world - the discovery of the Americas, the transition to the era of enlightenment (interestingly called the cruel age, a very clear nod to Blake and other romanticists) in 1 and culminating in large-scale ideological warfare and the beginnings of post-industrial age in 2 respectively. But our own reality is even further obscured from this! All endings imply the project of Rherr's dream world as base material to be the eventual or immediate future of the world and I think it's there that our own world is supposed to exist - an additional "layer" (qliphoth) which further gatekeeps the world from understanding the Absolute Truth, with traces of the world it is hiding becoming present in our own mythology. Rherr is to some degree correct, there are simply too many paths to divinity laid open. I think you're right that the Sulfur God *is* Alll-Mer divine form, but his intent is to accelerate humanity's perfection and ascension through manifested individual will (or subjugation to his will via divine judgement, possibly both!), versus the Machine God who seeks a collective, self-sustaining humanity away from divinity entirely. Where I think you're wrong is that the Machine God is not being influenced by Sulphur, but rather both being influenced by the God of Fear and Hunger, the actualisation of humanity's limitations and misery, heralding the dawn of modern science and its eventual domination over nature. Both Sulphur and the Machine God have similar but opposing ways to transcend the tripartite problem of divine creation, destruction and void as it pertains to free will and seek to join them by "completing" the problem of free will, one representing anti-humanism (Sulphur) the other humanism (Machine God). I think essentially the Sulfur god as coming from Gro-goroth is compelling for the reasons you give, it completes what is effectively the (un)holy trinity. Note that Sulfur is probably what we call Lucifer, the "light-bringer" i.e. the conduit that brings the sun to man, and can only be seen as a "sun god" in that aspect. Note that the characters remark that Ma'havre's sun is bright but cold, I don't think this is necessarily just a component of time travel! By contrast Kaiser is Samael (the snake is a big giveaway, as is his bearing a child with a woman very similar to Lilith), a distinct character from Lucifer with different aims, a common misconception in Biblical studies and the same goes for Fear and Hunger - I think in this case yellow shouldn't be seen as just meaning the Sulphur God but a principle - something closer to "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" taken to its moral conclusions. The Bremen yellow/black banners in this respect are supposed to symbolise the master/slave dialectic, and I think we see a big change in Kaiser in Termina for this reason, seeing himself as committed to creating utopia but aware that his idea of human emancipation requiring mass suffering as paradoxical, seeing a way out of the current predicament with Logic. Even his most elite cadre have fully accepted that they cannot continue to exist as they are, and the war ends by essentially guiding his opponent's project to completion for them. Building higher knowledge via human intellect rather than divine metaphysics - he's a Hegelian in other words! It would be fun to see where this goes next as personally my bets are on Vinushka'a return as an allegory of modern climate catastrophe in a ravaged future earth with Vinland being the new setting
That would be pretty wild. It's not out of the question that some of the Old Gods are just truly ancient Ascended Gods, although afaik there hasn't been any suggestions as such
I think I have a way to explain how multiple gods can still exist after the creation of a new old god, and how 3 gods can still exist after the ascension of Alll-mer specifically. I think there is evidence that when a new old god is created through this ascension method, multiple timelines merge and all the major events that happen within them become canon. A lot of this comment is going to be justifying my theory, so the implications to this video will just be at the end, 2nd to last paragraph. No one seems to be able to figure out which endings of the first game are canon. There seems to be evidence for at least 5 endings to be canon, which should be impossible with what we know. First, 3 endings are pretty much set in canon. Enki’s S ending clearly happened, since he became enlightened and wrote the books on the old gods. Someone also must have guided the girl to becoming the God of Fear and Hunger. Additionally, Nas’hrah’s head is burned as if Gro-goroth's traces were fought. I suppose this one is debatable, since it is not clearly stated that it was by Gro-goroth, but it would be a mean detail to put in the game if this ending was not supposed to be canon. These 3 endings are unique and should require 3 different main characters. D’arce’s S ending also seems to have happened, since using rot on Le’Garde reveals that he looks identical to the resurrected Le’Garde in that ending. He also shares a unique death animation with Father Domek, hinting they used the same blood magic. However, when confronting Le’Garde in front of Logic as O’saa, Nas’hrah’s head references the conversation he and Le’Garde have before Le’Garde sits on the golden throne, which would mean he also had to have ascended to become a new god. This is 5 endings already, which should be unique to each other. However, there is still evidence that other endings should be canon. August is (fairly) widely accepted to be the descendent of Ragnvaldr, and Moonless made it out of the dungeon into his family somehow. This should contradict one of the other endings mentioned happening, since the player is killed in those other endings. I think it would also make sense that Ragnvaldr’s S ending occurs since magic creatures are becoming less common. Who better to blame this on than the god of ultra-violence? This ending allows him to escape the dungeon with Moonless and have descendants. Cahara has the weakest case for his S ending since there seem to be no references to it in game. However, I think the case could be made that his ending is hinted at by the museum artifacts. These artifacts seem to be from an excavated Ma’habre. The sign in front states that they are from an archeological site in South Rondon, which is probably a reference to the dungeons. I think it would make sense that Cahara’s S ending, in which he takes the crown, is supposed to reflect real-life grave robbers in Egypt. It eventually inspires Archeologists to excavate the site. Putting one of the Sabbath blades in his ending is also a strange decision if it is not significant. These seemingly contradicting endings seem to all happen. I think this is because of the creation of the God of Fear and Hunger. If all possible endings occur, this also leaves the God of the Depths alive to still be present in the world, just as we see in Termina. During the ascension of Alll-mer, three events could have occurred: the Sun God could have lived, Alll-mer could have ascended, or the Sulfur personality could have taken over Alll-mer and ascended to become Sulfur. All three happen due to this timeline merging. This leaves all three in the world, and justifies how Gro-goroth could still act as a god after the ascension of Alll-mer. Just as bonus justification, this is similar to what happens in The Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall. The god Talos is created, and all the endings of the game were made canon (to not disappoint players who chose a different ending in the next game). I can’t say this is a direct inspiration, since to my knowledge Miro has never credited The Elder Scrolls as an inspiration, but maybe!
I think these theories are quite overcomplicated - I interpreted the sun god as being an earlier Being or sort of the "true god" not shown (yet),the one to create the forces of nature (equaling the creation of the three original old gods,Gro goroth and sylvian obviously the opposing forces of destruction and creation while depth being nature which makes Vinushka appear as slightly unthoughtful to be thrown in as a 'new old nature god' in part 2). The Clay guardian with the red scarf mentions how he awaits the return of a sort of "king of the gods" that even in the past mahabre has been gone for so long not to be remembered by his most loyal servant. With the ghosts roaming the streets of past mahabre it does give off the feeling that even in its past state this town is long abandoned past its glory,hinting that there was a time prior to the reign of the known old gods.
Personally I think logic is another ascended like the girl and alll-mer with vinushka and Reila(+other people absorbed into logic) and you can see vinushka's sigil on her chest when you get a close up look to her face
Logic isn't quite an Ascended God, it wouldn't make sense for Le'garde to get so mad about Alll-Mer and God of Fear and Hunger for using the power of the Old Gods only to do it again
Could the eclipse being gro-goroths symbol have shown that the events of fear and hunger termina were intentional, with how the sun is covered by the moon just as how the sulfur (gro-goroth) cult uses rher and the moon as a front
Dumb theory: Gro'goroth is also the sun god, Silvian is also Rher and Vitruvian is also the god of the depths. In a way this works because boundless entities comprised by concepts and are probably like 4-D in nature, we can only perceive them through their avatars and the things we associate with the avatars, so Vitruvian died when the girl ascended, Gro'goroth died when Alll-mer ascended and Silvian likely died/will die soon to be rebirth into a new form as our priorities change for what we consider important.
I also think one of the possible interpretations is the following: the old gods cannot stay static and like everything else must change and evolve, which they do through their death and rebirth. Just like that the God of the Depths became the God of Fear and Hunger, Gro-goroth became Alll-mer and Sulfur God and now, if I am not mistaken, Rher got transformed into the Logic God. Thus this means if the old god has left and only his or her traces remains, we are to expect a new powerful god in his or her place. Also notice how rebirth of the old god always requires a human.
An interesting point I thought of on the connection between Alll-Mer, Sulfer, the sun god and Alchemy is the philosophers stone, which is also called the philosophers sulfur. The idea being that sulfur is the "purest" element and if you purify Sulfur it can remediate other elements into their "pure" form i.e. lead to gold. Though there are several schools of alchemy and they all disagree on how to make the philosophers stone I felt like this seemed pretty relevant to the Sulfur god and Alll-Mer. The idea that the thing with the ability to create change and purify everything else(Alll-Mer) is Sulur, purified What if both your videos are correct, and Alll-Mer and Sulfur are a multi form ascended god. Like the God of Fear and Hunger but instead of progressing naturally the change must be triggered in some way. For Alll-Mer to carry out Gro-Goroths will, then, Sulfur must be purified somehow. Thats more based off the real life influences the game draws on, though, than the game itself so I'm probably totally wrong, lol
I think that "left" is an interesting idea. Maybe the gods never actually left at all, and instead all kill themselves to bind with a human as a way to be more understood by humanity. We see traces of all three old gods, so in theory all three may have been killed and binded with a human. Possibly, every time an old god sacrifices itself to bind with a new human, it becomes less and less godlike, and more and more human like.
It just occurred to me that the cube of the depths, possessed by gro-goroth's cultists, literally returns the sun to its peak and shifts temporal reality around it.
Isn't cube of depths is artifact of God of depths?
so a minecraft behelit?
@@johndeper5295yeah cave dwellers are depth cultists, cannibals are gro goroth and bunnies are sylvian
@@johndeper5295 ye
@@johndeper5295no, it’s actually vinushkas. It’s just named “Of the Depths” due to it being found in the, well, depths.
I love the idea that all of this monumental plan we try to fight against is essentially just a massive love story with two old gods lol
Sylvian: "Why don't these idiots love me!?"
Gro-goroth: "Don't worry, honey, I'll fix it!"
When you are the old god, so powerful and timeless, is there anything else that could really matter except the relationships with others like you?
Better love story than Twilight
I am reminded of the plot of Thanos and Death.
@@someguy774 jokes aside that's beautiful holy fuck
* Miro watching the video * "Damn I didn't know that"
Fear and Hunger mode : What really happened in the eyes of the humans.
Dungeon Nights mode : What Sun/sulfer/Gor gorth Thinks they are doing to help humans learn how to love Sylvian properly.
It's so weird how on first glance these games seem like little hardcore, immersive horror rpgs, but the more time you spend with it, the more you realize how complex they are. All these secrets, event triggers, story bits, alternative boss encounters etc. Always hard to imagine how one dude made these. The brutal combat system alone would make these games a worthy experience, but having all this on top which makes these games have a fleshed out world, is incredible!
They really are something special
Consider one interesting aspect of Alll-Mer: He's extremely pale and bald... just like a Marriage. Perhaps Alll-Mer had simply performed a Marriage with the Sun God.
Maybe thats the result of the sylvian orgy.
Don't you see? An ascension is a marriage between an old god and a half-new god human. The two bodies and souls combine to become something totally different.
All-Mer Topped.
@jimmbo7542 If Alll-mer tops, this implicates that Sulfur is a power bottom.
Maybe that why when you use necromancy in the corpse he turns horny
You missed one big piece of evidence that further confirms your theories. When fighting Valteil The Enlightened One, talking to him can sometimes give a question in which he refers to Gro-Goroth as the "original" god of destruction, implying that something came after the original.
I mean, there were many new gods who could represent destruction, Nas'rah for example
@@ГригорийСоколов-ь6йNashrah is not a god like gro-goroth or sylvian he was granted a portion of Divine Power but he was originally human.
The Old Gods Are Pure Born Concepts they never were mortals at ALL.
@@nobreluan4578Nasrah not being the old god doesn't really matter.
Valteil consider himself and other new gods as god god, when he talk about Gro goroth as the original god he was talking what came before the new god
@@kozrak-kai8215 i know i know but is unlike that anyone might had replaced gro-goroth be old or New god. But only time Will tell. Still waiting for the next big update of termina🙏
woah, good find!
I'd love if it turns out the lore of Fear and Hunter could be framed as a cosmic horror love story. "Husband (Gro-goroth) literally changes heaven, earth, and hell to address wife's (Sylvian) depression so she can be loved by her children (Humanity) as she loves them." Whether this is right or wrong, as someone who grew up on Lovecraft, I love the shift from early Fear and Hunger lore from "alien, in-humane knowledge" into this "alien knowledge you can potentially interpret through a humanistic lens" framing. To me it adds to the horror of the series because it results in multiple new readings that could possible be true at the same time despite contradictory beliefs. Some of my favorites are: 1) This is all pareidolia, anthropomorphizing these alien gods into human logic possible resulting in a more horrific fate if humanity follows their desires, and 2) The interpretation is real and the miserable cycle of suffering central to the setting has even the gods of the world running fruitless tasks despite their best efforts, fundamentally changing their being for the hope of returning to a by-gone era that can never return.
I am with you with the tonal shift, I vastly prefer the atmosphere and lore of Termina to the first game. Less grimdark more Lovecraft
Gro goroth is the best husband man
I stan my lovecraftian horrors being buncha babies and causing untold suffering and paradoxes for the little guy, hell yeah
@@bryanl7587Idk, the middle age grimdark feel is so cool. I feel like the 3rd installment might be a techno apocalyptic or post apocalyptic in the vein of I have no mouth and I must scream. It’s cool how every installment can channel a different survivor horror vibe.
You can have both. First one was dark ages stuff, full of ignorance. In Termina, they had more understanding via Enki's works.
I'm glad you went over your theory about Sulfer and the Pinecone pig. We get more evidence for that theory with every update from Mero.
I think you're off about the Sun God's identity, but maybe you're half-right. See, the Sun is a force of both destruction and creation, a fire that burns itself, and in that burning creates life. A force that destroys and creates would be the result of a union between those two forces. I believe that the Sun God is the child of Gro-goroth and Sylvan. It would explain the similarity in rituals between the two, since sons will often imitate their fathers.
But I think that perhaps the reason why things went wrong with the union of man and god is because Alll-Mer the man believed that the he knew how to take in the parts of the god he wanted and leave out the ones he didn't, and so began a ritual to cast the darker parts of himself away. But the problem with that is... nature abhors a vacuum. Instead of taking in only the best qualities of the god, he took in the worst and descended from the crucifix as a conqueror and destroyer instead of the benevolent savior he had planned to be.
Alll-Mer is the best parts of a man mixed with the worst parts of a god. Thus, while he conquered and destroyed, Alll-Mer's actions were ultimately beneficial for humanity, lifting them into a more enlightened age, even if his means were violent. But there was another half, born of the best parts of a god, and the worst parts of a man. While a god can be terrible, though, it cannot hold a candle to the evil that dwells within the hearts of man. And after centuries in burning Sulphur, any good that might have once remained inside of that being has burned away.
Further, while it is indicated that Gro-Goroth walks among men, a god wouldn't just be confined to the form of man. The black goat and the Man in Black share an identity, and claim a relation to both Sulphur and Alll-Mer, stating they watched as Alll-Mer created statues to embody Alll-Mer's dark side. But only a god could live long enough to have seen Alll-Mer. Thus, it is possible that the Man in Black is Gro-Goroth in disguise, using both his identity as the Man in Black and the black goat to obscure his true identity. This is why he's present at Termina: With Alll-Mer dead, Sulphur is the only son that Gro-Goroth has left, and he's using Termina as a chance to check in on his wayward son.
Nice but damm fear and hunger has some deep lore.
His coat look like François'. I think he was François or someone of New Gods.
You've gained +1 affinity with Gro-Goroth.
Okay but why would black kalev do the things he did in game?
Black Kalev first and foremost cucks the woodman and drive’s his wife to suicide, so why do that if he’s so loving to his own wife?
Wait so does treat mean that this whole nightmare and slaughter is the old god equivalent to a dad FaceTiming his son.
8:07 yep. Uhhuh. Snakes. Totally holding snakes of some variety lol
Yep, absolutely! A nice family friendly video here :)
Why everyone is ignoring the fact that Depth God's mouth is covered with sulfur??? I didnt made my theory yet but I think that birth of Sulfur God is somehow strongly connected with God of the Depths and it's mouth is such a big hint...
So...a marriage of grol-garoth & a piece of the deity of the depths? With All-mer being the host for the little piece?
(This is not a refutation, this is merely a collection of information relevant to your theory)
The symbol(you can see this in the mold apartments or at 5:53 in the video) for the sulfur god is two alchemical symbols combined, "🜂" which represents fire, and "🜍" which represents sulfur.
So more accurately, this deity is not the sulfur god but the "burning sulfur god" or the "sulfur flame god" or "god of sulfur flames."
This is important, because demons and other hellish or vile beings are often associated with fire or sulfur in folklore and literature, it reinforces the hell imagery nicely.
It is _also_ important because sulfur produces blue flames when burnt, and the 3 primary sulfur cultists in game have blue marks marring their skin.
The god of the depths is never associated with flames directly(it does nkt burst into flames or breathe fire), and in fact it is the patron/matron of many creatures which would naturally fear fire, such as insects and crows.
Its dwelling of choice is a damp cavern and its design is based on a photograph of real ship wreckage.
However, it is not _impossible_ for the god of the depths to be associated in some way with fire its black ooze(This ooze is replaced in the alchemical recipe with Oil in Termina.) is, in fact, used to create murky vials, which ignite upon contact with air(you know, when the glass breaks from you throwing the vial). But that may well be a result of the yellow vial component, it's not really clear. Yellow is associated with solid, non-burning sulfur, and the mushrooms we derive the yellow vials from in Termina are safely edible so it's honestly possibly a dead end?
Here’s the facts about F&H1 and how they tie into its sequel.
1. All the characters started the dungeon at different times within a small period of each other and chose different entrances
-All Characters are Solo or temporarily form alliances with each other in various points of the dungeon to achieve their specific goals.
2. 3 of 4 S endings are canon
-The Dark priest sat on the throne and rejected godhood before leaving
-The Knight resurrected Le'gurd into the vampiric character in yellow we see in the Sequel (The Kaiser)
- The Outlander took the Sword of the East and the Wolfhound and left the dungeon after finding Le'gurd dead (we find the wolfhound in the sequel and a descendant of the Outlander that confirms this)
- The mercenary never made it out of the dungeon alive despite getting his hands on the treasure, only he was the one to take the girl into the Dark Below and witness her Ascension at the cost of his life due to her acknowledgement of his suffering.
3. The God of Fear and Hunger was born during the events of F&H1 and was crucial to the progression of Humanity leading to the events of the sequel.
4. The only “happy” ending is finding Le’gurd still alive (or knocked out) before the 30min time limit and escorting him to the Golden Throne to get the “God in Yellow” ending where God Le’gurd brings forth a new golden age for all of mankind.
But since Le'gurd is ALWAYS dead on hard mode and that’s where all the S endings are, the “God in Yellow” ending is non-canon.
Found you on Shorts. Then started watching your lore videos. Very entertaining and quite good work. Keep it up.
Thank you very much!
I just realised, Alll-mer became a ascended god by dying, which is what gor-goroth is a death god
And the little girl ascended by getting in the deepest pits of darkness in the old god
So ascending might be different depending on the god
If there was an ascended sylvion god
Then it would have to be created by love or life in some way maybe
that's a pretty interesting idea actually
Logic is without a doubt the Ascended Sylvian God. Ending A cemented that idea to me. In the union of people and the mutual act of creation the god Logic is created. The Ending art even is reminiscent of Sylvian's early experiment with man, that mass union (orgy in Sylvian's case).
@@MYTHONICS .
@@TheEnmineer hmmm
@@TheEnmineer But I think that Logic was made by Sacrificing nature.
I say this cuz of the cube that has a crossed off Vinushka sigil, that is on Logic/Reila chest.
The Ancient Book, also known as the Testament of Gro-goroth, shows not just his current symbol but three others as well. One of them being the God of the Depths where his traces are found. I don't believe this is coincidence - I think the whole story is just a love story about Gro-goroth and Sylvian reincarnating. But when an old god is rebirthed, it exists at all points of time and history. So one of the forms they took were the paired sun and moon, opposites meant to be together.
Pocketcat, in his F&H1 book says "humankind purses the same goals persistently. If I were to get the moon itself to you, would you give up on your quest...?"" If you respond yes, he responds "That would make me happy. The moon would be thankful as well naturally." While a little gross, why would it make the moon happy for "love" to be shown? Because Rher is one incarnation of Sylvian, hopeful that mankind will give up their ambitions of godhood and return the love she has shown. Love that has changed from being the ever present Sylvian, to the ever watchful moon in the sky. (Perhaps this is why her traces are in the void, a moon like space?)
definitely an interesting idea. There's a lot more to Rher than what meets the eyes...
It definitely makes more sense given you "show love" to the Sylvian symbol to restore lost limbs in Termina, and in 1st game only the jellyfish lady can do that (in exchange for the girl) certainly leaving me to speculate that's another aspect of her "traces" which can actually speak. Do her traces speak to you if you beat her in the void like Grogoroth does?
something I wondered is if the God Of The Depths is aligned in any way to any of the other old gods, or if it's an entirely separate entity.
while I kinda hoped it'd be it's own thing, I can definitely see it being destruction-aligned. because after all, you find traces of Gro-Goroth down there, but also because the Depths/the dungeons are all consuming. they fill you with a desperate urge to consume and eat, and destroys your mind and body. since it's confirmed the Dungeons are Depths' body, it makes sense.
and to add onto your theory, if Gro-Goroth is associated with descending, going downwards, then why wouldn't Sylvian as his antithesis be upwards?
@@dhampir_days I didn't think about the consuming part but consumption is just another facet of destruction. I think both of your points add credence to the ying-yang theory of Sylvian and Gro-Goroth. Even the mythology of ying-yang seems to mirror parts of the game, such as the pale green hue. Now I just need to fill the holes of Vinishka, since he breaks the reincarnation cycle, and why it seems like world events have huge parts in the concept changes of their supposed reincarnations.
Personally i don't think Rher is a reincarnation of Slyvian. Because all through out FH1 and 2. Rher is always refer as 'He', even the New Gods refer Rher as 'He'. And the greatest aspect of Rher is Truth and Deceit. While Sylvian is Love and Creations.
Sulfur and Gro-Goroth share similar traits. They always take sacrifice as a show of Devotions, both is very Warlike and both is almost the same 1:1 aspect in a senses. But Rher and Sylvian is diffrent. Sylvian always loves and toys with Humanity even tho her loved is twisted. While Rher dgf about Humanity, Rher views of humans is not hatreds or disdain but a very lack of interest, Rher sees human as underneath him, Like how Human sees Ants. Thats why theres almost none of Rher influence outside of Termina and his followers is view but centralized, and he only make a moves when The Girl is born and Termina happens.
And like i mention, Sylvian conduct in the lore is far from Deceit, she always sincerly try to make humanity loves her again even how twisted the methods were. But Rher unlike other old gods relies on Truth and Deceits. He doesn't need to hide from Human like other Old Gods, this implies that he doesn't care of Humanity if they realize or found out that he always was there in the first places.
So yeah, for me Sylvian is not Rher. Just like how Earth is made from the Gods of Depth it needed Rher as a Moon to watch over Humanity.
Enjoyed the part of the theory where the pinecone was the secret key ingredient.
Its honestly a little weird hearing the theory crafting from the live streams being formatted in such a concise video, its amazing love the vid!!
Glad we're finally getting more elaboration on Le'Garde and how he can be the Yellow King without D'arce's Ending S needing to be canon
Didn’t Miro say all S-Endings are canon though?
@@OreWaLavai
Could you like give a source for that? One of them had to have taken the girl to become the god of fear and hunger. I’d like all S endings to be canon but like, it creates a plot hole unless its a retcon or something
@@slysamuel5902the events happened are clearly altered to make all S endings possible
@@shawermus
Is it fine if you could explain it please? I’m curious
@@slysamuel5902 I replied but it seems to have disappeared. Basically I’ve seen many people claim Miro said all S endings are canon, and there’s a reddit post that states as such, however I’ve never seen any hard evidence of Miro having said it. That being said the reddit post that says it does explain how it could be possible. There isn’t really any plotholes, it’s easily retconned once you realise a plathrough of the game isn’t representative of the lore in a strict sense of the word.
I noticed a connection between All-mer and Gro-Goroth that is very obvious in hindsight. That being the spells that the respective god can teach.
Gro-Goroth teaches the spells Hurting, Black Oorb, Black Smog, Necromancy and Blood Golem. All of these are related to Gro-Goroth's domain of death and destruction.But only Blood Golem is a spell related to Blood Magic: Gro-Goroths gift to mankind.
Now notice that all the spells that All-mer teaches are Blood Magic: Blood portal, Blood sword and inverse crown of thorns.
and if Sulfur is indeed posing as Alll-mer, then that would further solidify a destructive connection between Sulfur and Gro-Goroth
its worth noting that in chemistry, sulfur bonds with iron to form fool's god, the false gold. While the end pursuit of alchemy is the attainment of the spiritual gold. With all the figures wearing yellow in both games and their pursuit of ascension, perhaps the one pulling the strings from the background is that god of false gold?
By what is said in this video isn't it safe to assume Rher is just Sylvian? This would explain pocketcats "Rubbing" acts and indecent behavior as is common with Sylvian, the masks in the museum as representing both gods in their new state instead of just "Rher"/Vinushka and Gro-goroth, which wouldn't make much sense. This could also explain the obsession moon-spawns have with children, and the ritual of Termina is closely related with the "death of innocence" it could either mean a possible attempt at a marriage by Sylvian herself or the relation of a "purity of blood" that is related with virgins and children in historical tellings, which would possibly speed up the reconstruction of the Sulfur God. Also the Termina event itself is a great contribution to it, since there is a lot of bloodshed involved, at least in the one shown in the game, but i wouldn't doubt the last ones weren't a battle royale as well, which also could be the meaning of the phrase "death of innocence" as in casting your innocent side apart and joining the Sulfur pits.
Maybe there's something to that . . .
Gro-Goroth is a masculine-coded god. Sylvian is the feminine. Sun and Moon. Man and Woman. _Thematically_ it works. But I don't have any substantiation for this idea. Gro-Goroth is a metaphor for masculinity.
A personal epiphany of mine is that I feel like myself, and a lot of men I've known, would take to Gro-Goroth worship with a "hell yeah." Gro-Goroth worship is both outwardly and inwardly destructive. And the attitude of the Dark Priests and Yellow Mages are a very cynical "sigma grindset" mentality characterized by self-denying asceticism and a lust for power -- a tradition which Marina breaks from symbolically by being a trans woman who embraces femininity. She snidely criticizes her father for being inwardly miserable and anti-fun. That despite all his power, he's an unhappy man incapable of anything other than hurling abuse.
Nash'rah is a foul-mouthed dick. But he's _our_ dick. Because there's something ultimately appealing about his honesty and aggressive spirit, in spite of his Gro-Goroth destructiveness. He is also running this MGTOW grindset cult on the side. O'saa and he both understand the score. They're just using each other to get what they want. O'saa is happy enough to throw Nash'rah into a lake the moment he doesn't need him anymore.
And throughout the game O'saa acts in a way that contributes to his alienation. He blocks you from advancing by doing the Yellow Mage thing and his back story reveals that he left his family and "killed" himself inside metaphorically by doing so -- for sentimentality is a weakness for Yellow Mages. Enki himself echoes this character journey, with the first ritual in his life dueling his twin sister to the death with ritual knives. Surrender and sentiment has no place amongst the Dark Priests either.
That said, I cannot put myself in the Sylvian mindset. Partly because there are so few examples of her cultists in the games. Partly because I just don't get the "feminine" upbringing and mentality. We have plenty to go on where Gro-Goroth is concerned, but much less on the nature of Sylvian or what her cults might look like.
Not a big fear and hunger fan but:
Rhea Sylvia, the mother of Romulus and Remus, sounds similar to Rher and Sylvian. There aren’t any other strong similarities or connections I can see, though.
Is not Sylvia suposed to love the humans and her worshipers? Rher is spoken of as male and hating humans, their magics and worships do not allign
Doesn't the fact that Gro-goroth's symbol is the eclipse imply that Rher actually has some involvement in this process as well? After all an eclipse only occurs when the sun and moon come together, right?
I have zero evidence for this, but what if rher involved himself in the death of gro-goroth? He doesn't want us to be gods right? Maybe he knew doing this would be ultimately detrimental to to that cause somehow.
He definitely could have! There's a connection between the Sun God and Rher that isn't very obvious right now...
@@MYTHONICS well my theory now is that Gro-goroth is actually a combination of the hateful sun god and the playful moon god which is the only way I can think to explain that he is both the "destroyer of men" who demands human sacrifices and a "curious god" who disguises himself as a human and bestows blessings upon them
Goroth took Sylvia aevice and bones the moon
I think Sylvian and Gor-Gorgoroth were the two original old gods who sired many other old gods: The god nature, The god of the sun, and the god of the moon
My strange theory that the Sulfur God and Logic are mirror images of Grogoroth and Sylvian is less and less absurd.
If Sulfur is indeed the rebirth of Grogoroth, then Logic may be a reflection of the Sylvian. She loved people, but they couldn't love her.
It is enough to admit only one detail - "Return to the Green Hue", this is not the unity of the gods in their original world, but their death, as it turns out that Sylvian is also dead. And what could she do before her final death? Follow your lover and be reborn.
What am I talking about? SYLVIANE CULTISTS are fighting on Kaiser's side, AND LIVING TANK, LITERALLY, HYDRA. Everything suggests that Logic (the fusion of people whom Sylvian loved) is her rebirth. Like the God of Sulfur, who is saturated with the souls of people. Two "artificial" Old Gods.
The question is what's wrong with Rher. But it seems to me that what little remains of him will become / has become part of Sulfur. Like Deps' became FearAndHunger.
I never saw it that way and it makes a lot of sense, the sulfur god is about destruction and death after all
@@checkthisout7616the sulfur god is the half all mer left behind
I'm not totally conviced. This theory relies a lot on "what if X is actually Y" and while I don't nessicarily think that's a bad arguement in a world where so many things are uncertain, I'd like to craft a theory that tries to tie together the things we are literally told. Which, I admit, does seem to hold less water, but I want to try anyway.
I'll admit, I've thought a lot about it and I'm not sure I have a proper theory, more like the edges of one, but one I'd like others to comment on and take a crack at.
Two things in particular bother me: The Body of All-Mer and Ossa's comment in the church.
Starting with the Latter, if Na'hasrah and the Yellow Mages were aware of the lore of sulfer, Ossa wouldn't make a comment about the lack of All-Mer in the church. The fact he has the head and no comment is made while playing as him reinforces the idea to me that Sulfer is something distinct from All Mer, not an imposter wearing his mantle.
To reinforce that, All Mer's body is intact in the past but reduced to bones in the future. I think the parallels between All Mer and L'garde are important. In the propechy ending, both are gods of humanity that conquer the world to change the world order. However, in D'arce's ending this propecy is perverted, and the chosen one is brought back as a violent creature of blood, shedding the skin (and presumably bones) of the body. I beleive that All-Mer was a god, who holds influence over the world, but who in excising his own evil had his apsotles desecrate his body with the Revival Spell. They then took the violent blood creature that climbed from his body and put it on the Throne of Ascension, casting it into the the void. This creature, born of the body of a god and cast into the void, would become Sulfer, and it's inherited connection to All Mer's power would cause it to lash out against the very thing All Mer loved most, Mankind.
As we know, time is a very fickle thing in Fear and Hunger. The Ascension of New Gods overlap horribly, with the cube of the depths keeping the moment of Asencion locked in place. Old gods who ascend have always existed, even though to the limited human mind there was a point where they didn't. The void clearly operates in a leauge of it's own, with centuries passing between you and L'garde sitting on the throne only seconds apart. Sulfer did not exist when All Mer died, being made sometime after when the party finds the Skeleton of All Mer, but he has also always exisited, and never existed, essentially unmoored from time.
Again, I'm just on the edge of something here, thoughts are appricated.
I don't think they're aware of the Sulfur secret, they don't even know his name. I think that because Nashrah is unknowingly copying the story of Alll-Mer and failing at it, probably due to Sulfur having control over humanity's subconscious. A conqueror from the east attaining great power and making a violent cult to worship him then getting scorched and buried is straight out of Sulfur's playbook
I wonder if Sylvian is based on Tiamat, both are mothers who through their love, leniency and grief creates monsters. They also share the sea monster motif.
i dont know how this just occured to me but grogoroth shares a TON of beliefs with of all things odin. a one eyed god king with powerful magic, strong blood associations, worship through sacrifices, walking the nine worlds as a man, and having a son (baldur) who is strongly associated with death and light? i feel like im reaching a little but those are some pretty neat parallels.
Ok just finished the video great one just wanted to add/ask some things.
-Wouldn't you say that the ecplise, the confirmed symbol of Gro-goroth puts at least equal importance to the aspect of the moon ? What would be the connection here ?
-Osas when entering the church by the way he speaks seems to imply that Alll-Mer does exist just that this church defo isn't one of his (at least that's how I understood it) As such this is how I would view the timeline :
human All-Mer and Gro-goroth fusion with human All-Mer, both dying on the cross
-> traces of Gro-goroth appear
-> All-Mer's mind gets bested and Gro-goroth starts posing as All-Mer
-> Gro-goroth travels across the world spreading his faith in "All-Mer" form. In europa, africa, the east everywhere.
-> He then dies again for various reasons ( your theory about trying to remove the All-Mer remains in him make sense )
-> By his influence as god of the dead, he still maintains a strong influence on the real world, even while dead, as Sulfur. OR Sulfur is the traces left after the death of Gro-goroth in his All-mer form.
-> Now waiting for Sylivan to ressurect him fully. He spreads his influence again through europa only this time and thus shapes once again the new religion, this time as a sulfur cult in the west and a more "All-mer" religion remains in the other regions he didn't visit again.
This would then explain why All-mer's influence and Sulfur's influence can both exist at the same time. We can imagine that Osas coming from the East would have known only the religions and influence when Gro-goroth was on his All-Mer form while the rest of the cast and all of Europa knew All-mer in his Sulfur form.
I think that the symbol suggests that Rher is the last remaining Old God watching over humanity but tbh I need to research more into the moon god.
@@MYTHONICSwell it looks like even dead gods are still sentient so he could be dead but still present , thst might be why the sins still their another peice of gor-goroth just hanging their.
Fear and hungry for lore videos!
Since I got introduced F&H, I knew playing wasnt for me, but I was hooked on the story and world building. Love the lore and really appreciate your videos and streams. Thank you for the new video!
Same! I haven't played yet (and I'm too cowardice to play it) but I'm really enjoying the lore and everything else!
I've also thought that I'll buy the game just for the sake of appreciating the amazing solo dev behind this masterpiece.
@@ValentinoHarpaSame, honestly the lore of this game beats most of the games and stories I already read, what an amazing game
Im not a lore expert but i think there's something to le'garde being resurrected skinless and going on a violent conquest, and alll mer ascending/ resurrecting and going on a violent conquest to re establish old god worship. Maybe the spell mimics a weaker version of whatever ritual lead to the sulphur god
The fact that the Logic uses healing magics, was guarded by a Sylvian cultist in the form of the bunny trooper, and brings the player into a dimension of one united spiritual humanity all connected and always together, makes me think there's merit to the idea that the Sulfur God is a re-incarnated Gro-Goroth; putting those clues together with the idea that gods will die and then return could mean the Logic is a resurrected Sylvian. They expressly state in the games that true gods such as the original pantheon cannot ever truly die, but will come back in one way or another since they are ideas or concepts, and therefore are abstractions. If Gro-Goroth died and then was brought back in the form of All-Mer/Sulur, and GotD was brought back as GoF&H, Sylvian would then be the only dead god that needs to make their comeback. Also with each iteration there is a difference from the original form: Gro-Goroth being returned via flawed magic brought through desperation made him more vile, GotD being returned via magic that was a product of human aspiration made them more present in the minds of said humans who imagined the means to bring them back, so Sylvian being brought back by a god in hiding and a human population that largely treats science as the new magic would therefore make their new form physically artificial. The Logic needed a female sacrifice in order to give her a vessel, after all. The realm that we initially thought was Rher's dimension is under construction, seemingly being built in real time as the machine god herself is also being built, and when the Logic is finally awake during their boss fight, she takes you to that same dimension.
the issue there is that we don't know if Sylvian is dead or not, but if you apply that idea to Vinushka instead then it makes a lot of sense. Vinushka as the God of Enlightenment and, say, Landscape rather than nature means that Logic is primed to take over that position
Funnily enough this does also contain a lot of coincidences with what could be another of Alll-mer's real life Inspirations; Horus. In pretty much all of his interpretations his Right eye contained the Sun, and his Left eye, The Moon, he eventually loses an Eye on his quest of Revenge, this is interpreted as the darkening of the moon, either during its natural phases or possibly an eclipse.
Eventually he becomes King of the Nile and ruler of Egypt on The Valley of Kings after succeeding on its Quest
The things is there's also similar things the Sun god shares with Horus's rival, Set, who was often depicted in the late periods with a Donkey head (not exactly a horse head but close enough). And also more Gro Goroth's seeing as Set was often seen as the God of chaos and violence, but also with Foreigners and Exoticism.
its also interesting when you consider the Greek equivalents for them often being the god of the Sun Apollo (Horus) and Typhoon the Serpentine-being of Destruction (Set)
Continuing on the whole matter of Horus vs Set it so happens that most versions actually end up on Set and Horus actually coming to an agreement to divide the land between (altho in some Set just becomes embarassed for eating funny mayo salad and growing a bunch of eyes on its body so he fucks off to the desert forever lol), however in other interpretations both of them "reconcile" setting apart their dualities and Horus becomes the Sole Ruler to Unite the lands of Egypt into a Whole
This may be a gigantic far reach considering there's also a lot of shit on the "Contendings of Set and Horus" that just straight up don't fit with the whole narrative of F&H obv. But still thought could be some referential tidbits from Real life on how Alll-mer eventually became the King of Ma'Havre and ascended into Godhood eventually becoming the destined "Ruler of humanity" if only for a time.
Idk its just fun to speculate about where Miro may have taken inspiration to built upon all the Lore, great video as the Sulfur god's one. I hope you plan on doing some digging about Rher next because i wanna know what you can dig about that creepy weirdo ass moon that drives people crazy and turns people into Cat-men
I have one more small piece of evidence to add to the pile, though you dont need it do you? This was very convincing on its own!
In father donnivans house, the floor is littered with his notes on ma'habre, and its king.
Each paper says something different.
In the top half of the house mear the hexen table one says
"The sulfur sun appears in the texts frequently, but i do not think thats the sun referred to in the carvings [note: the carbings referenced are cavings donnovan saw in ma'habre, or men gathering under the sun]
A sun that blazes underground does not match with the passages"
So, youre right, the sun god was king of ma'habre, and sulfurnwas borne of its union. The sun changed, and donnovan discovered it.
This is a fantastic video! I love your emphasis on snappy corroborations with in-game evidence. There is one small thing- at 8:05 ...... Those aren't staffs in the statues' hands.
something thats not addressed enough in fiction is aspects of gods - multiple versions of single gods that share power - if not being equal yet seperate in power - that have similar or overlapping domains, but vary in specifics or personality.
I also think that the God of Fear and Hunger and Sulfur are best considered aspects of the Depths and Gro-Goroth respectively. their domains have great overlap with the gods "killed" for their ascension, but are specific enough to not fully encapsulate the old gods. Fear and Hunger has the domain of... well. fear and hunger. which is part of what the Depths represents, but isnt all of it. Sulfur is the god of hateful death and destruction, whereas Gro-Goroth is a god of destruction, without malice or cruel intent.
and i think the difference between old and ascended gods is the human element. because destruction is antithetical to existence and an inevitability for humans, it makes sense that the ascended representation of the same god would be so cruel, as the human element of the ascended god prescribes an all too human morality to the god, as humanity attempts to understand the concept of a god beyond the very concept of morals
And here I am naively thought that after video about Sulfur God there's nothing left. These connections to the Logic, Samarie, Sylvian and whole Gro-goroth's ideas are mindblowing. Thanks for your crazy amount of efforts, never fails to entertain!
These videos are absolutely top-notch. Your overall interpretation makes so much sense. Idk, when you 1st see the sigil of the God of the Depths in F&H1, there is a smaller inverted pentagram within the sigil. I always found that weird. But, with your explanation of Allmer and Sulfur, it makes sense. Sulfur won control of the psychological Depths. The shadow took over. You give the absolute best explanation of these difficult games
Yeah but could he beat Goku?
Who do you think actually killed him in the first place?
If the god fusion theory holds correct. The ending C's yellow king could be a rebirthed Silvian, considering his love for humanity and admission that Legarde is dead (Similar to Alll-mers true fate). He also appears to be something other than a new god, and actually leads humanity to prosperous age. What better way to love humanity than to reduce yourself to the form of a human yourself?
Furthermore, Silvians traces are seen near the Yellow King in masomode.
In F&H2, one of the bosses you fight before Kaiser, who's very heavily implied to be Le'garde, is also called the Sylvian Trooper and even has a head that looks as though it has bunny ears. This could further add to this theory.
can't believe Sylvian transed his gender /j
The absolute slander of 39:27 had me shocked and appalled! It's all about the sticks as any good doog should know!
Your theory is very interesting, and I think you may be right on this one. I always found it weird that both Gro-goroth cultists and Sulfur cultists were mindlessly killing people for unknown reasons. Now, if theses gods were the same, it explains it simply and without too much reasoning as well (Occam's Razor).
The Traces of Groggy say that humans cannot properly perceive an old god so perhaps that could be a reason for him wanting to shed his mortal skin, since otherwise he might not be able to see his lover.
This was a fantastic video! The way Sylvian is included in this is…kind of tragic, in a way? I’m really interested in learning more about the relationship between her and Gro-goroth in future installments of Fear and Hunger, especially with this in mind.
Now, if I remember correctly, in the last video you suggested that the horse was the animal symbol of the sun god. Does that still apply here? After all, Gro-goroth has the wolf mask cultists from the first game. I was thinking about that ever since you first brought him up in this video.
The original sun god had horses, probably a simbol of power and majesty?, after his death, gro-goroth symbols a hungry wolf feeding on human flesh?
In greek mythos horses carry the Sun God/Titan Chariot.
I think a lot changed when the Sun God fell. A different form, a different sigil, likely a different name and cult too.
What about the connection of Grogoroth/Sulfurs connection to Rehr, an eclipse is moon and sun. Sulfur was also seen as lier/trickster(tricking the whole world) like Rher. The termina Festival also has ties to Rehr and Sulfur.
Uh, mauthe, the statues in the tombs are not holding snake staffs lol.
Its a.... different kind of staff, still made from wood tho. You might want to look closer.
I still think it’s hilarious Le’garde failed to ascend to godhood twice
You explored in your previous video about many of the IRL historical influences that played a role in forming Funger's lore (primarily the lore and faith of the gnostics). A lot of Gro-goroth's rituals and lore follow a lot of the ritual murder traditions from across human history. The Aztecs are the most obvious influence in this particular case regarding historical people making human sacrifices to placate a solar deity (another common deity to sacrifice people to was also a fertility goddess). The sun god in many pantheons is usually seen as the king of that pantheon.
You *touched* on it discussing the coin, but where things get particularly interesting is when you look at how many aspects and practices seen in Christianity were coopted from rituals and practices found in pagan religions; particularly their sun gods. For example, Christmas celebrating Jesus of Nazareth's birth was the sun god's birth celebration. This was used to help spread Christianity and make it 'click' with peoples and cultures that were previously pagan and in the process of conversion.
So interestingly, Alll-mer ascending via Gro-Goroth and GG regaining power as Sulfur via the faith in Alll-mer in an intersting way almost mirrors in history the 'old sun god' becoming the 'god of man' (a title given to God/Jesus throughout the Bible). Just some more food for thought that makes sense with what you're laying down.
EDIT: Oh also, Jesus was seen as God sacrificing himself/his own son (Christianity is wild) for the salvation of mankind. Being able to go to heaven is the ability to 'be with God.' GG sacrificing himself for man's ascension starts to make for a good theory when pinned against the real world influences Funger pulls from.
I like the video, in my personal opinion though even though I completely agree with the sulfur theory this one is not really supported by the evidence you provide, it takes a lot of extra logic to connect the dots. But still, great video and it's always fun to explore possibilities.
I think it's very compelling.
But we know sulfur is described as malicious, and his worship involves suffering.
and gro'goroth is explicitly.....not. Gro'goroth isn't malicious, and takes no interest in suffering, he simply destroys.
It could of course simply be that the things all'mer gave gro'goroth in defeat were the parts of his humanity he sought so hard to destroy knowing he'd be taking on the soul of the destroyer.
I don't think that's true. Some of his spells specifically use negative emotions to work
maybe these gods work on hinduism rules, where certain gods are all aspects of other gods. so the sun god is gro-goroth, but gro-goroth is not the sun god.
@@MYTHONICS that's when humans use blood magic and humans don't understand grogoroth and therefore don't really understand destruction, it's not that grogoroth is malicious, people just view destruction as malicious
Great video! What is your opinion about the importance of the Vatican in Termina and in the universe of Fear and Hunger itself? Considering that a portion of the characters have some direct or indirect connection to this place, and that the place itself is mentioned several times, it seems to be the epicenter of something big. Maybe even the stage for a possible Fear and Hunger 3? Honestly, a sequel set in the Vatican with a focus on new gods based on the Horsemen of the Apocalypse would be interesting, after all, we already have one of the Horsemen, don't we? The horseman of famine, or rather, the horseman of fear and hunger. I may be hallucinating, but in the Bible the pestilence is the first horseman and he comes riding a white horse, in Termina the scenario is a city affected by the "pestilence" of the moon, and during the game there are several dead white horses scattered on the map, there are no horses of any other color, even the centaur is white. Does this sound like a prelude to something bigger or am I crazy?
Then we ARE ALL Crazy ❤😂😊 everything is possible with those Lovecraftian Gods.
If you're watching lore videos about an obscure god in an obscure game series then yes, I'd say you're crazy
The games thus far have focused on places that are out of the way, so assuming 3 follows that trend then it probably won't be in the Vatican. It would be cool to visit there though
You are going crazy. I'm one of the voices in your head. THEYRE COMING. QUICK. Leave all your milk out overnight and then drink a big cup. That's the only way to stop them. If you start to poop uncontrollably that's only your new powers starting to form.
Also don't forget to brush your teeth.
I’m obsessed with your F&H content.
How do we know for certain that Alll-Mer worship in Europa is all actually Sulphur worship? Wouldn't people at large notice the gorey blood sacrifices? How could this be a secret if it was so widespread? Are we sure this wasn't specific to Prehevel? Or at the very least not representative of the entirety of Europan Alll-Mer worship?
I always assumed the Sulphur god was exactly what he was described to be: the cast-away parts of Alll-Mer's psyche. Thats the symbolism behind the sculptures the Man in Black talks about, right? I definitely think Sulphur worship has "infected" the Europan church, but I dont fully buy this idea that the Sulphur god switched places with Alll-Mer. At least not without more evidence.
The best guess would be that All-mer Just left like the old Gods did before.
Sulfur Just took over to spread his influence.
I cover that in the previous video: ruclips.net/video/n-vCXoEGcK4/видео.html
Worth noting that while Gro-Goroth spoting it's accessory Sulfur itself is more feminine in stature, that could reference Adam Kadmon and/or the Kthonic Men. Presence of such concepts would also explain how and Depth God(s) linked to killing and sacrificing their fellows.
Also as you said Sylvian does refer to merging of two being into one alot and that could be a final goal for her and Gro-Goroth. Ascension composed of a lesser and greater entity but it's not necessarily the only way it could go. The "roadmap" somewhat checks out if you willing to stretch it - they go at it once and Vynnushka comes out, twice and there is Sulfur, thrice and, well, we don't know this one gonna go yet.
Part 1. I feel at this point its clear enough to speculate that what the Sulfer God is looking for is a host to revive into the land of the living, finding candidates by seeing if they are worthy to decend into the sulfer pits and taking in all of Sulfers anger, hatred, and evil. Those that fail become cultists, those that succeed become the host.
Part 2. I believe Daan is the most likely candidate to become the Sulfer God's host. Daan's entire life has been manipulated by a higher being, his parents being Sylvian cultist led to him being adopted by the Dutch family, and that connection to Sylvian led to the Dutch family discovering Sulfer and dieing leading Daan to the Termina festival.
Part 3. Pocket Cat has had a vested interest in Daan for a long time, it's speculated that it's because Daan has the Blank Soul which must be a requirement for Pocket Cat to switch hosts and continue surviving, but I think its because Daan has the potential of ascension by becoming Sulfer's host. I believe that the Blank soul is the perfect vessel to contain all of Sulfers evil, and considering the life Daan has lived is perfect candidate to fall under the influence of Sulfer. Pocket Cat being a true creation/follower of Rher is trying to fulfill his masters will and stop another ascension like he did in the previous F&H, by way of influencing Daan to accept Pocket Cats deal of possessing him. After all Pocket Cat can't directly interfere with people other than making deals with them.
So happy to see this and so glad there's someone who makes f&h content
Hi Mauthe Doog! Something else that goes well with the themes of the horse and the beheadment is the greek mythology pegasus. I realized the constellation on the horse statue is for pegasus. Pegasus was also born from Medusa's severed neck when she was beheaded. Maybe it's to thematically show something needs to die to rise even greater? That's why sulfur needs so many sacrifices? Maybe that's why there's also so many snake statues? Something to consider.
Something about the safe, good, grounding Jesus figure of Alll’mer having never existed at all is, for some reason, most viscerally terrifying to me than anything else I’ve seen about this game so far
I think that realising the historical Alll-mer was a bloodthirsty tyrant as well as being the kind protector makes him a super interesting figure
hope to see a video on logic next,
that's a great serie and I hope you will keep making lore videos
The first video felt much more consistent and believable but I can't help but feel this one is more disjointed and far-fetched. But still just a feeling. It's a fun theory and video regardless. Good work.
Doing casual research about Perkele, it says to be considered as original name of Ukko, the thunder God from Estonian/Finnish/Sami mythology. It's also funny coincidence that the God symbol is also upside down cross just like Sulfur god.
Been waiting for this video! Thanks!
Your videos are so in-depth and all I can say is thank you, as someone who struggles to piece these types of things together.
Awesome theory and incredibly well made video. Love your stuff man, you keep me motivated to always try a new playthrough with a different character. F&H is one of my favorite game series of all time at this point.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Oh wow, Gro's symbol is an eclipse. They're referred to as "cutting circles" elsewhere- how does that fit in?
Listening to this video for a second time after watching new kids on the block cover Fear and Hunger lore, and this still stands as the best and most cohirent lore video series for F&H
Lets goooo!!! Been waiting for this since you mentioned it on stream.
Also the music you hear when you fight Perkele is called Alll-mer Bells giving more credence to the idea that Alll-mer and Sulphur are one and the same.
I love the theory and think you're absolutely onto something, my only hesitations or questions would be:
- The reptiles/blights link to the void, as well as to being the previous ruler of Mahabre. Of note, they are cold blooded creatures that would've thrived under a sun god, and with its absence and the cold that follows, would necessarily be driven out, but we do see yellow lizardmages using Gor's magic
- I am a bit unclear who you are claiming the god in the pit is based on this?
- Someone else has pointed this out, but the Sun-Eclipse Sigil-Moon are v connected. It is possible that there is an independent sun god that was manipulated (and all-merr himself as well) by Gor'goroth into becoming sulfur. My other theory would be that if there is an All'mer-Sulfur relationship, if there is a Rher-Sun relationship as well
One possibility of the eclipse sigil, I think, would be that Rher- given that an eclipse is generally caused by the moon passing between the sun and earth or vise versa, so it's possible that Gor'goroth manipulated All-merr into stealing the sun god's power during an early termina; or otherwise relied on dissonance between the sun and moon to set this plan in motion. I don't think Rher would have ever willingly aligned with the humans, and I think it's a safe bet that the "King of Mahabre" favored the lizards
It's also of note, and more evidence I would think, the people of Abyssonia widely distrusted the old gods and viewed them as extraterrestrials and only recently has their worship come into favor; despite them having made up most of the early new gods. This would make sense in line with your theory if they knew that the Sun God was one of Mahabre's lizard deities and that All-merr had fallen in line with them.
the god in the pit is the same god as what people call Alll-Mer, but after he was killed and is now going through rebirth
@@MYTHONICS Gotcha, following. Thank you!
One thing I don't get tho: if All-mer reborned and Sulfur are the same, why is the body of All-mer (29:26) missing its left eye, while Sulfur (27:18) is missing its right one?
8:05 i laughed so hard when you said "....similar staffs.." and these guys are just holding their longjohn silvers
I did a touble take, had to go back a few seconds, looked intensely at the image and then exlaimed "That's a penis!"
@@JustC00kie hahaha. precisely
3am... perfect time to start watching a video essay about a game i know nothing about
this entire time, i thought Sulfur's corpse had lego figure hands 🤦♂️🤦♀️🤦
Mau I think the Sun God in this series is supposed to be a reference to Hashem, the Jewish God. Someone might've beaten me to it here, but Hashem was both the god that Jesus (Alll-mer) derived from and uses fire as allegory (Hebrew symbols are considered to be 'of flame' in Judaism). It doesn't change much in the grand scheme of things, but it fits your puzzle well.
I love when a theory video doesn't end with you thinking 'well that's a neat idea', but instead with 'well shit, that fits perfectly.'
You know who had one eye too. Daan!!! Maybe is connected too Sulfur. Maybe he had hidden CatEye.
absolutely love your lore breakdowns!
8:07 are the two tennis balls at the end of staff used for back support? maybe gro-goroth cared about ergonomics?
A new thought on this. All-mer and Sulfer are not seperate entities but different aspects of one god that do different jobs. All-mer is the god of man and is there to shepard humanity. Sulfer is the king of Mahabre; overseeing the incomong spirits and the afterlife. Kind of like the left and right hands of this singular being. It all relates back to the core but the left and right hand perform functions independant of each other. Thus it may seem like they are different entities but this is not the case. It is one being simply dividing its attention. It is overseeing the complete cycle towards its goal from both sides of it.
This may be why there seems to be some strange blending of the two going on. The core may be getting confused which traits are neccessary to each aspect to do its job. Thus it may be that there are times and places where the aspects actually become fully flipflopped. So we come to the big question. What is the core? Well, I agree with Mauthe that it is probably Gor-gorath. He is still trying to mold humanity into beings that can understand and return his beloved's love. But is using the human persona gained by merging with the human All-mer to give him the understanding neccessary to help guide humanity. And Sulfer is the one that expresses his displeasure at how willful humanity is being by punishing them in death. And as time goes by some of that is bleeding together as Gor-gorath loses patience.
What you think?
¡Gracias! But my problem with your theory is that the sulfur god who we see is in a cage according perkeke. It seems what he is somewhat powerless, a kind to the devil in diviny comedy. He cant be the center of word plotting yet
Thanks! The nature of the gods as beings that reshape reality means he's a lot stronger that his form makes him seem, plus he has his cult and other followers doing his will. We don't know a lot of specifics about him at the moment so maybe we'll find out his exact goals in the future...
I think you're definitely on the right track with a lot of your theories, but there is one small thing that bothers me. If I understand correctly, an ascension sacrifices an Old God in order to create a new god. The God of Fear and Hunger sacrificed The God of the Depths to fuel its ascension, correct? But I thought that The God of the Depths was already dead even before the ascension happened? IIRC there are lines in F&H1 that state that what's at the bottom of the Dungeons is just what's left of what was once the God of the Depths, a husk of its former self. It seemed to be implying that the God of the Depths had already died (or perhaps already left the human world) and what was left was only traces of its former self. Yet this power is what was used to fuel the God of Fear and Hunger's ascension.
I don't think an old god in its entirety is strictly required to fuel an ascension. The Old Gods are simply so unfathomably powerful that, combined with the power of a New God, even their traces are powerful enough to create an Ascended God. It doesn't necessarily mean your theories are wrong, but it does potentially throw a wrench in the implication that Gro-goroth died in order to create Alll-mer (Sulfur God). Is it possible that the reason Ma'habre was overtaken by Alll-mer (Sulfur God) is because Gro-goroth grew disgusted with humanity as his traces said, left the human world, and Vitruvia used the traces of what was left of Gro-goroth to make Alll-mer, who then took over the now unoccupied throne?
I think there isn't enough information given to assume that Gro-goroth was killed or sacrificed himself to fuel Alll-mer's ascension, or even that his plan all along was to create something representing humanity that was capable of loving Sylvian as much as she loved them. Considering Gro-goroth's contempt for humanity and MO for being the God of destruction and human sacrifices, I find it hard to believe that he cared about Sylvian's desire that much to sacrifice himself for humanity, or that Vitruvia and humanity somehow found a way to slay an Old God. Sure, Gro-goroth mated with Sylvian, but was there actually love between them? Or at least, if there was love, was it strong enough for Gro-goroth to willingly sacrifice himself for something he hated?
If an ascension doesn't necessarily consume the Old God's power in the process but simply combines the powers and creates two byproducts, an Ascended God and a husk, then I don't think it's unreasonable to think that even the traces of an Old God are strong enough to fuel an ascension and what's left over is simply an even weaker version of those traces. After all, traces of the God of the Depths still exist in the world even after Alll-mer was created, otherwise how would anyone be able to use any magic associated with it? I would think that once those traces finally fade out of existence or are used up in some way, then its magic will become inaccessible and unusable. Perhaps what's currently left is too weak to fuel something like an ascension, but certainly enough that the God of the Depths' power still lingers in the world.
I don't know, a lot of these connections are well researched, but the end result just doesn't sit right with me from a worldbuilding/narrative perspective. Two gods that are really three gods but really just one god? Doing all of this to please his lover when the intentions of each "aspect" seem so radically different in objective? I can't think of any direct evidence to refute it off the top of my head, which is credit to your skill of finding all these puzzle pieces, but I can't see this being where F&H3 will bring us next imo.
So one point regarding ascension you mentioned in the Lore of Sulfur video I had a realization over:
I think your conclusion over the God of the Depths' symbols combining to make the God of Fear & Hunger's could just as easily apply to Gro-goroth and Alll-mer, if Gro-goroth is indeed the missing sun god.
You proposed the theory that the sun god willingly sacrificed himself to give birth to the ascended god, and if you look at Sulfur's symbol, it's the combination of a cross, Alll-mer's symbol, as well as two triangles layered over one another, one small and one big, similar to Gro-goroth's symbol.
And though Gro-goroth's is two rings instead of two triangles, if your conclusion of the Ascended Gods' symbols is to be believed, then the Old God's symbol either doesn't have to be in the exact same state, or perhaps the Old God's symbol is changed to show the merging with a new being. God of the Depths's symbol is a crude-looking backwards R, while the God of Fear & Hunger's symbol is two Rs mirrored in front of each other, looking as though they were written more cleanly. Similarly, Gro-goroth's symbol is two rings overlapping each other yet has those three lines on the outside of the larger circle, while Sulfur's signal is the combination of a cross and two overlapping triangles, that look to be drawn much cleaner than Gro-goroth's circles, and if you wanted to, you could even look at the three lines on his original symbol to have possibly formed both the line running down the middle of the bigger triangle, as well as the cross, that would then move on to symbolize Alll-mer, similar to how the God of the Depths gained a new symbol in the form of the forward-facing R from the God of Fear & Hunger's symbol.
I'm shocked it took me so long to watch this. This is by far the most interesting theory I've heard about these games, and it makes all the pieces we've been given about the gods line up so well. Good shit
I think its wholesome that a god would wear human skin to not scare us mere mortals :3
8:05 that's no snake staff
that's a Neo Armstrong Cyclone Jet Armstrong Cannon
...those are not similiar staffs, the statues are holding onto massive errections.
scrumdiddlyumptious mauthe doog video
I wouldn't be surprised if Fear and Hunger 3 starts or ends with our world as we understand it - feels like the events of both games are about building gnostic explanations for both our shared terrain and things that have happened to our own world - the discovery of the Americas, the transition to the era of enlightenment (interestingly called the cruel age, a very clear nod to Blake and other romanticists) in 1 and culminating in large-scale ideological warfare and the beginnings of post-industrial age in 2 respectively. But our own reality is even further obscured from this! All endings imply the project of Rherr's dream world as base material to be the eventual or immediate future of the world and I think it's there that our own world is supposed to exist - an additional "layer" (qliphoth) which further gatekeeps the world from understanding the Absolute Truth, with traces of the world it is hiding becoming present in our own mythology. Rherr is to some degree correct, there are simply too many paths to divinity laid open.
I think you're right that the Sulfur God *is* Alll-Mer divine form, but his intent is to accelerate humanity's perfection and ascension through manifested individual will (or subjugation to his will via divine judgement, possibly both!), versus the Machine God who seeks a collective, self-sustaining humanity away from divinity entirely. Where I think you're wrong is that the Machine God is not being influenced by Sulphur, but rather both being influenced by the God of Fear and Hunger, the actualisation of humanity's limitations and misery, heralding the dawn of modern science and its eventual domination over nature. Both Sulphur and the Machine God have similar but opposing ways to transcend the tripartite problem of divine creation, destruction and void as it pertains to free will and seek to join them by "completing" the problem of free will, one representing anti-humanism (Sulphur) the other humanism (Machine God).
I think essentially the Sulfur god as coming from Gro-goroth is compelling for the reasons you give, it completes what is effectively the (un)holy trinity. Note that Sulfur is probably what we call Lucifer, the "light-bringer" i.e. the conduit that brings the sun to man, and can only be seen as a "sun god" in that aspect. Note that the characters remark that Ma'havre's sun is bright but cold, I don't think this is necessarily just a component of time travel! By contrast Kaiser is Samael (the snake is a big giveaway, as is his bearing a child with a woman very similar to Lilith), a distinct character from Lucifer with different aims, a common misconception in Biblical studies and the same goes for Fear and Hunger - I think in this case yellow shouldn't be seen as just meaning the Sulphur God but a principle - something closer to "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" taken to its moral conclusions. The Bremen yellow/black banners in this respect are supposed to symbolise the master/slave dialectic, and I think we see a big change in Kaiser in Termina for this reason, seeing himself as committed to creating utopia but aware that his idea of human emancipation requiring mass suffering as paradoxical, seeing a way out of the current predicament with Logic. Even his most elite cadre have fully accepted that they cannot continue to exist as they are, and the war ends by essentially guiding his opponent's project to completion for them. Building higher knowledge via human intellect rather than divine metaphysics - he's a Hegelian in other words!
It would be fun to see where this goes next as personally my bets are on Vinushka'a return as an allegory of modern climate catastrophe in a ravaged future earth with Vinland being the new setting
What if the cubes imply that groggy was an ascended god in the first place ?
That would be pretty wild. It's not out of the question that some of the Old Gods are just truly ancient Ascended Gods, although afaik there hasn't been any suggestions as such
8:07 I... don't think that's a staff. Look closely at it's bottom...
I think I have a way to explain how multiple gods can still exist after the creation of a new old god, and how 3 gods can still exist after the ascension of Alll-mer specifically. I think there is evidence that when a new old god is created through this ascension method, multiple timelines merge and all the major events that happen within them become canon. A lot of this comment is going to be justifying my theory, so the implications to this video will just be at the end, 2nd to last paragraph.
No one seems to be able to figure out which endings of the first game are canon. There seems to be evidence for at least 5 endings to be canon, which should be impossible with what we know.
First, 3 endings are pretty much set in canon. Enki’s S ending clearly happened, since he became enlightened and wrote the books on the old gods. Someone also must have guided the girl to becoming the God of Fear and Hunger. Additionally, Nas’hrah’s head is burned as if Gro-goroth's traces were fought. I suppose this one is debatable, since it is not clearly stated that it was by Gro-goroth, but it would be a mean detail to put in the game if this ending was not supposed to be canon. These 3 endings are unique and should require 3 different main characters.
D’arce’s S ending also seems to have happened, since using rot on Le’Garde reveals that he looks identical to the resurrected Le’Garde in that ending. He also shares a unique death animation with Father Domek, hinting they used the same blood magic. However, when confronting Le’Garde in front of Logic as O’saa, Nas’hrah’s head references the conversation he and Le’Garde have before Le’Garde sits on the golden throne, which would mean he also had to have ascended to become a new god. This is 5 endings already, which should be unique to each other.
However, there is still evidence that other endings should be canon. August is (fairly) widely accepted to be the descendent of Ragnvaldr, and Moonless made it out of the dungeon into his family somehow. This should contradict one of the other endings mentioned happening, since the player is killed in those other endings. I think it would also make sense that Ragnvaldr’s S ending occurs since magic creatures are becoming less common. Who better to blame this on than the god of ultra-violence? This ending allows him to escape the dungeon with Moonless and have descendants.
Cahara has the weakest case for his S ending since there seem to be no references to it in game. However, I think the case could be made that his ending is hinted at by the museum artifacts. These artifacts seem to be from an excavated Ma’habre. The sign in front states that they are from an archeological site in South Rondon, which is probably a reference to the dungeons. I think it would make sense that Cahara’s S ending, in which he takes the crown, is supposed to reflect real-life grave robbers in Egypt. It eventually inspires Archeologists to excavate the site. Putting one of the Sabbath blades in his ending is also a strange decision if it is not significant.
These seemingly contradicting endings seem to all happen. I think this is because of the creation of the God of Fear and Hunger. If all possible endings occur, this also leaves the God of the Depths alive to still be present in the world, just as we see in Termina. During the ascension of Alll-mer, three events could have occurred: the Sun God could have lived, Alll-mer could have ascended, or the Sulfur personality could have taken over Alll-mer and ascended to become Sulfur. All three happen due to this timeline merging. This leaves all three in the world, and justifies how Gro-goroth could still act as a god after the ascension of Alll-mer.
Just as bonus justification, this is similar to what happens in The Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall. The god Talos is created, and all the endings of the game were made canon (to not disappoint players who chose a different ending in the next game). I can’t say this is a direct inspiration, since to my knowledge Miro has never credited The Elder Scrolls as an inspiration, but maybe!
I think these theories are quite overcomplicated - I interpreted the sun god as being an earlier Being or sort of the "true god" not shown (yet),the one to create the forces of nature (equaling the creation of the three original old gods,Gro goroth and sylvian obviously the opposing forces of destruction and creation while depth being nature which makes Vinushka appear as slightly unthoughtful to be thrown in as a 'new old nature god' in part 2). The Clay guardian with the red scarf mentions how he awaits the return of a sort of "king of the gods" that even in the past mahabre has been gone for so long not to be remembered by his most loyal servant. With the ghosts roaming the streets of past mahabre it does give off the feeling that even in its past state this town is long abandoned past its glory,hinting that there was a time prior to the reign of the known old gods.
Who is the sun god?
Who is the fun god?
Ra Ra Ra!
Personally I think logic is another ascended like the girl and alll-mer with vinushka and Reila(+other people absorbed into logic) and you can see vinushka's sigil on her chest when you get a close up look to her face
Logic isn't quite an Ascended God, it wouldn't make sense for Le'garde to get so mad about Alll-Mer and God of Fear and Hunger for using the power of the Old Gods only to do it again
@@MYTHONICSbut it would make since from a wrighting standpoint of a villain contsntly makeing the same mistake over and over.
Amazing job as always!
Could the eclipse being gro-goroths symbol have shown that the events of fear and hunger termina were intentional, with how the sun is covered by the moon just as how the sulfur (gro-goroth) cult uses rher and the moon as a front
Dumb theory:
Gro'goroth is also the sun god, Silvian is also Rher and Vitruvian is also the god of the depths. In a way this works because boundless entities comprised by concepts and are probably like 4-D in nature, we can only perceive them through their avatars and the things we associate with the avatars, so Vitruvian died when the girl ascended, Gro'goroth died when Alll-mer ascended and Silvian likely died/will die soon to be rebirth into a new form as our priorities change for what we consider important.
I also think one of the possible interpretations is the following: the old gods cannot stay static and like everything else must change and evolve, which they do through their death and rebirth. Just like that the God of the Depths became the God of Fear and Hunger, Gro-goroth became Alll-mer and Sulfur God and now, if I am not mistaken, Rher got transformed into the Logic God. Thus this means if the old god has left and only his or her traces remains, we are to expect a new powerful god in his or her place. Also notice how rebirth of the old god always requires a human.
An interesting point I thought of on the connection between Alll-Mer, Sulfer, the sun god and Alchemy is the philosophers stone, which is also called the philosophers sulfur. The idea being that sulfur is the "purest" element and if you purify Sulfur it can remediate other elements into their "pure" form i.e. lead to gold. Though there are several schools of alchemy and they all disagree on how to make the philosophers stone I felt like this seemed pretty relevant to the Sulfur god and Alll-Mer. The idea that the thing with the ability to create change and purify everything else(Alll-Mer) is Sulur, purified
What if both your videos are correct, and Alll-Mer and Sulfur are a multi form ascended god. Like the God of Fear and Hunger but instead of progressing naturally the change must be triggered in some way. For Alll-Mer to carry out Gro-Goroths will, then, Sulfur must be purified somehow.
Thats more based off the real life influences the game draws on, though, than the game itself so I'm probably totally wrong, lol
I think that "left" is an interesting idea. Maybe the gods never actually left at all, and instead all kill themselves to bind with a human as a way to be more understood by humanity. We see traces of all three old gods, so in theory all three may have been killed and binded with a human. Possibly, every time an old god sacrifices itself to bind with a new human, it becomes less and less godlike, and more and more human like.