Everything wrong with this proposal from a board game publisher
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- Опубликовано: 17 окт 2024
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Original post on Reddit: / need_help_assessing_a_...
Geoff Engelstein’s tweet: / 1777910748934500366
The Tabletop Game Designers Association: www.ttgda.org/
Cardboard Edison Reports: cardboardediso...
Zackary Strebeck (lawyer who specializes in the games industry): strebecklaw.com/
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I also want to thank the designer who posted the original Reddit post and for asking questions about the proposal. They listened to their gut telling them something was off and reached out for help from the community. I hope they don't feel embarrassed or bad about this situation. It truly will help many other designers and I want to thank them for sharing their situation so others can learn from it too!
If a market exists, someone will try to scam it. I'm not on reddit, so I'm glad you're bringing awareness to it
That is so true! I am definitely leaning towards them being scammers. Too many red flags! Thanks for watching, Travis 🙌
The name of this supposed "publisher" should be made public asap. There needs to be a brutal limelight on such entities that denies them any shadowy cover. It is the only way to stomp out such obnoxiousness and at the same time reenforce the confidence of designers.
Btw, hearing Matisyahu in the background was nice. 😁
Yes I hope the OP shares the name of the "publisher." I haven't seen any replies or updates from the OP tho.... And yeah the music at that Starbucks was bumpin that day, good ear!!
20 copies?! Wow! I'm so glad that the designer reached out to ask for input, and very much looking forward to the TTGDA.
Yeah 20 copies is just so ridiculous! It has to be a scam, right? Yes I’m looking forward to the TTGDA launching soon and hopefully we’ll see less of these bogus proposals.
Thank you for the info on TTGDA. I just finished signing our company up as a full member. I have learned more about Game design from you in one afternoon videos than probably the last year put together. Very much appreciated.
Thanks for highlighting this Pam! We hope the TTGDA will help educate designers and reduce the chance of designers being exploited like this.
Thanks for tweeting about this so others can learn from it! And thank you for founding the TTGDA, it will be such a huge support for the community!
well known publishers are predatory enough as it is! This industry is a fucking minefield, it's always a good idea to check in with your peers on if something's fishy or not.
A publisher approaching an unknown designer happens how often? I feel like that's super rare and feels like a red flag in it's self.
Once in my life time about 10 years ago I was approached out of the blue. But that was super random and went nowhere because I wanted the - very unfinished - the original design to be always print and play.
Thanks for a really insightful video.
Yes 100%
Thanks for sharing these tips. As a board game designer with no published game yet, it is nice to get to know the industry a bit.
I’m glad this was helpful for you! Best of luck and thanks for watching 🙌
Thanks for this video, I’m far from having any contact with any publisher. It’s not even on my radar. But this video and your channel came at a perfect time as I am a designer of terrain for tabletop and to promote my terrain I’m working on a tabletop game I have been dreaming about making over 20 years ago.
I’m an instant fan and looking forward to watch more of your videos.
I have been approached by a predatory(to my opinion at this point) yet established entity that swiped one aspect of my design after asking for digital demo file. I am not mad at what they took, because I didn’t invent the wheel, I just modified something that was already existing for something completely different but made it fit into what I make to make things easier for everyone and myself for using my terrain. The thing that was upsetting was how they approached and the false intent of it. I can see what they are doing as other creators where initially featured on their site with credit for a short period of time then disappearing into oblivion while their creation are still on the site uncredited to the original designer.
I can totally see that kind of 1% royalty until a plateau being reached as a condition. I’m not saying they are promising 1% but it kind of fits that description of predatory behaviour to acquire things they can’t create on their own or at least hire a designer.
This is the approach they made.
- we love your designs, send us an example
(I sent them a sample)
- it’s very generic, we are not interested in your design, when you get better please don’t hesitate to contact us
(6months later they have used the concept of my designs and slightly modified a key element and integrated to one line of their product)
After the initial contact and response, I felt uneasy, something felt wrong. It had nothing to do with whether what I created was good or bad. I actually appreciate honesty, if what I do is crap, I would love to know so I can improve myself and not deep dive into something crappy.
So to protect myself I started my RUclips channel and posted that design as my first video and left it like that. When their terrain was published, that demo I made was already on RUclips, I hope thats enough to protect myself if they want to pursue anything.
Thank you for sharing your experience and I'm sorry that happened to you. If I haven't heard of the publisher before, I wouldn't send them any info about my games, I only deal with established, reputable publishers. And if I ever hear of any funny business about a publisher, I'll make a note not to work with them in a spreadsheet I keep of all publishers I want to work with. I do hope the original poster shares who this "publisher" was so we can all avoid them.
@@PamWallsGameDesign they are very popular in the Star Wars Legion tabletop 3D printed terrain field. They are probably the biggest independent printers of terrain. Anyone guessing would guess right. They are blatantly copying IP. I don’t know if they are licensed to do so, if they are not, it will probably catchup to them at one point.
@@Slurgical_3D_Terrain_Channel Yikes! That should definitely be called out. Not okay at all.
As a game deisgner who is starting a studio in south america this is liquid gold, love your channel and will be following very close.
I'm glad it was helpful for you! Best of luck and thanks for watching 🙌
Having floated around on the periphery of board game publishing for about 30 years, I cannot think of a *single* publisher - small, medium, large or global - who would make such an approach to a designer. Never. Or any designer (new, established or industry icon) who would look at such an approach for more than a nanosecond.
There are a few typical models of submissions to publishers (and the odd atypical ones). But none that involve a publisher "reaching out to" a new designer in this way. Doesn't happen.
Licensing vs one-time payments both happen, as is a mix - which might include non-refundable advances on royalties. That's not the red flag. But the requirement for as many as TWENTY prototypes, AND a requirement that the designer arrange the printing, both are.
I love this video! As somebody who makes games for fun, it's wonderful to gain a bit of knowledge on the publisher offer process. I always wondered what the standard deal was. And...What is that blue/white object that magically appeared behind your card around 430? Haha
TTGDA looks promising for American designers!
If you happen to be European there are other established associations, like SAZ (Germany, but also Netherlands and Italy) and SAJ for France.
Ps. Thank you Pam, and hello from Italy! 👋
I’m glad to hear there are already organizations like this in Europe! Us Canadians and Americans need to play catch up 🤦♀️ Thanks for watching!
Thanks so much for the honesty, and the break down of this email. Would say if it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't. But this offer didn't even sound good in the first place!
💯 Thanks for watching!
Thank you for this. Board game design is just a hobby for me also but if I ever feel marketable, I will need information like this. Although, considering how difficult and expensive 1 prototype can be, I would probably throw my back out laughing too hard at someone requesting 20.
Yeah the fact they even considered doing it is a real concern....
Thank you for making this video, newbies need to learn this info somehow before they get scammed!
💯 💯 💯 thank you for watching!
One of the things to add from the "escalating royalty rate' points you made is that if a game is successful the costs to the publisher goes down (so they can pay the designer more money while actually making more money for themselves too). All of the costs getting the game ready for production are no longer ongoing. Marketing costs will reduce (as popular games don't need so much marketing for people to want to buy them). Larger production runs are cheaper per item. A mega successful game will even help sell other games by the same publisher ("oh that game's from XYZ they released AAA, so it must be good') .
Yes to all of this! Thank you for adding these helpful comments.
This was great, thank you!
Thanks John! I’m glad you enjoyed it 🤗
This is not a BAD OFFER. This is predatory practice of someone who should be made public before there will be victims.
So, what exactly would the publisher be providing if you printed supplies for them? What a scam. The LaCroix of publishers.
💯 💯 💯
I just came here from that very subreddit to look up something else, and although I have not been looking up game design stuff on yt before, apart from miniature tutorials, I was shown your video as the first suggestion. Is someone trying to tell me something...?
You're one of us now... just let it happen lol
A Good Lawyer makes people money. Get a Lawyer to look at it before you sign if you want your work to be taken seriously.
I'm excited for the this association! Unfortunately I don't live the US anymore.
If you're in Europe, I just learned about a couple organizations there called SAZ and SAJ.
@@PamWallsGameDesign Thank you.
I'm struggling to think of what a scammer is going to do with 20 copies of an unknown tabletop game. Could it be a competitor trying to ruin the poor designer?
Pretty sure they would try to sell them...
This all will be useful when I finish one of the 47 games I have unfinished on my google drive. lol.
Ha! I just made a reel about this lollll
(Going by title alone, haven't watched video yet) 20 copies for Christ sakes if you could make 20 copies you might as well publish and distribute the game yourself at least as a proof of concept and wait until you actually need a publisher if the game takes off. Honestly, I would go to Kickstarter at this point and see about publication when/if you need it.
Royalties from a poor quality partner is unreliable and doubtful at best also. Unless they have transparent and clear book keeping....
Making a video with the ocean in the background is a dope flex 😆💪
I did my best to give you all a nice background to look at! 😆
@@PamWallsGameDesign can we talk about that poor buoy being dragged to their doom in the background. lol.
@@miclowgunman1987 the "u" in buoy is super important in this sentence lolllll
The power balance between employee and employer has never been an equal one, especially not in industries with a lot freelancing. Unions and similar collaborative groups are the only way of gaining some leverage, even more so in countries where laws often favor corporations over individuals.
💯💯💯
Moving to contract just means they have first rights.
This is actually a very common scam. They get this guy in a contract and then sue him for breach of contract. This was exposed in one of those investigation tv shows way back in the 90’s on us tv.
Oh wow! That's a really good point. Scary stuff 😬
Of course it's a scam! For EVERY INDUSTRY there are people who scrape information off web sites, put it in a spreadsheet, and sell it to anybody who wants it -- those people typically being scammers who are too lazy to generate their own leads.
Then they blast form letters out to the email list, which takes them zero effort and cost, and just wait to see who is desperate enough to respond.
EVERY INDUSTRY.
Sounds like the book industry scams in the past 2-3 decades.
do you live in a car or something?
or is it for your security so nobody could locate you?
she’s currently living out of the car for travel
Artists need to adopt a capitalistic mindset, and simply reject these offers. Might as well self publish if this is what is required
Great video! Sorry- this deal has more red flags 🚩 than a Moscow May Day parade
It sounds as a big scam.
I think you’re right :(
@@PamWallsGameDesign good news for the boar game competition!
interesting content, but really hard to watch due to so many cuts.
Nice one.
Tho I really dislike videos being filmed in a car. Unless it is very urgent, for some reason. But this kind of video... nope. Not cool.
You don't have to watch.
I’m currently travelling and living out of my car. I was going to try to record outside but there were too many people around and I’m sure people would complain about the sound being bad from the wind, background noises, etc. I’ll be back in my apartment in a couple weeks tho so you won’t have to endure another video of me recording in a car. Until I hit the road again, so sorry in advance.
you’re acting like she was driving
A car is an enclosed environment which is good for minimising wind noise and improves audio, particularly if the microphone you have is sensitive (for example the cut in bit in what sounds like a cafe. There is also a place to prop up a phone as a camera and some notes on the dash. It is just a talking head providing content so the audio is the important thing not what the environment looks like. Do you think all content should be filmed in a studio with your hipster mic setup exposed to the camera to look cool? Do you think content would be improved if it was presented by a pretty weather girl in a tight and revealing top? I just don't get the dislike you have with where it is filmed.
@@PamWallsGameDesign It's fine. The audio was clear and that's very important.
Who cares about the perceived industry standard. If I publish games and need a designer who does not want to do what I ask, I will find another. Sorry if the rest of this is good, you started off inside of a box that I really think is responbsible for many of the game business failures and general shortcomings. signed---"just a little corporate experience". From a designer perspective dealing with someone like this....sell they crappy games fast. That will end a faulty business model. You do need to be saavy, yes.