My god, finially an accurate description of slip angle. So many people think its a measurement of oversteer. The two are very connected, but not the same.
@@LastTenth one thing i still dont understand is what it means to be on the left side of the peak grip slip angle. does that just mean you arent moving fast enough to utilize the tires capabilities? thats what it seems like to me. so for example in a skidpad test, if you can do the circle at 50 mph, 45 mph would be to the left of the peak (where nothing bad is happening, you just arent going as fast as you could), and 55 mph would be on the right of the peak (where you would be losing traction and need to correct). is that correct?
@@Scotty-vs4lfI'm assuming this is in reference to a cornering stiffness graph, in which case the left side would mean that the slip angle is below that of which the tire generates the most turning force. So it doesn't really have much to do with speed, but more to do with slip angle being too low.
Yeah all those years of just doing it from a very young age, to the point they just instinctively know how to do it (correctly), sometimes without really knowing what they are doing.
In AMS2 cFFB file adjust the slide_factor value, and in AC+CM select the Enhanced understeer effect in the controller section. I’m not sure if the other SIzm titles give you this option.
Too bad that the force feedback in GT7 is utter garbage. Some of the cars are just modelled incorrectly. The new Civic Type R and GR Corolla are both nearly undrivable with a wheel anyway, never mind slip angles and feedback.
@@CaptainCrunch99I wouldn’t recommend enhanced understeer in AC. You can definitively feel the force peak without it, and the enhanced effect is so extreme that it feels very odd when the wheel suddenly loses almost all force.
i feel like we need an advanced series of masterclasses on this topic, especially as it relates to the other factors mentioned, including pro driver interpretations of these concepts against developing a setup at various tracks in various conditions.
That's a great idea!! Comparing what a driver 'feels' and what is in the data, and how this translates to a setup would be very interesting. I've been working with various drivers on setting up their car, and I want to make a series out of it, but unfortunately I hadn't recorded any of those sessions. But it'll come!
It's so mad watching this because I worked this out intuitively by watching old Micheal Schumacher onboards. I think he was in particular a master as slipping round corners. It's mad seeing this explained in a scientific way cause it reaffirms what I'm doing. Also, I think it's one thing to get good at slip, but then when you learn to tune to get good rotation, combined with slipping this is the ultimate fastest way around most tracks. Learning to control the slip whilst being able to induce rotation will allow you to carry so much speed through corners. I think this is the main difference between the good and the absolute best. The guys who are comfortable with this are the fastest.
I take it "mad" is good? =] Yes, as you described, the chassis will have an overall slip angle, just like tires do. When you corner, there is invariably some amount of chassis slip. And just like tires again, there are drawback to too much chassis slip.
Cool vid. I found the tire grip curves very enlightening. I have seen explanations that optimal slip gets the car to rotate, but this made it clearer to me. Ability to turn at speed demands grip. Maximizing grip therefore is required to maximize how much speed can be carried through the turn. 💡
This is an excellent lesson. I was recently working with a student that was struggling with corner exit as they were getting on throttle to early and then compensating by adding more steering input. This vid explains the problem this creates and why very well. One of your best videos yet. Keep ‘em coming.
Thanks Chris! Remind me of a student I had that did the same thing. I told him he wasn't allowed to get on the throttle until he started unwinding his wheel.
Very thorough. And you didn't confuse yaw with slip angle like half the internet does. I wish you mentioned that slip angle is the result of grip and not the cause of grip.
@@0foxgiven Race Car Vehicle Dynamics (Milliken & Milliken) is a good one for reference (for that topic and pretty much any basics to do with vehicle dynamics).. Also, to clarify, there are situations where a lateral force creates a slip angle, such as a car experiencing crosswinds or driving on a banked road. This external force will accelerate the car laterally, creating a slip angle, but the lateral tire force ("grip") is still generated as a result of that slip angle, which partially counteracts the external force.
@@LastTenth Milliken specifically says they both cause each other. He says the front wheels, get slip angle, therefore generate lateral force. The rear therefore has to deal with the lateral force due to "centrifugal force" and generates slip angle as a result. Other books, like chassis handbook by heißing don't mention the cause/effect. Interesting interaction between the two for sure.
@@0foxgiven Interesting indeed. Milliken also gives examples of where a lateral force gives rise to a slip angle, and all these examples are external forces (eg. wind). This slip angle then creates a tire force (grip) that partially offsets the external force. I think it's worthwhile to make the distinction between an external force and a tire force. Milliken is very explicit in stating that all tire force (grip) is a result of some slip at the tire print (contact patch). Regarding rear wheel slip angle - when the front tire(s) have a slip angle and create a lateral force at the front axle, this creates a yaw moment, rotating the car. This rotation gives rise to a chassis slip angle, and subsequently a rear axle slip angle as well, which creates it's own lateral force via the rear tire(s). Remember, centrifugal force is not a real force except perhaps in a rotating system (frame of reference). A turning car does not experience centrifugal force.
I find AC gives the most realistic slip angle. Forza motorsport isnt bad eitjer as you can really feel tje weight of the car but has a weird momemt between understeer and oversteer. AMS2 has the best slip angle model for fun. Its actually amazing how much you can drive with your feet in a GT classic posche on Nordschleife in AMS2. ACC its like it doesn't play into it or it does, but you're not feeling it as much. But I think thats pretty consistent with GT3 cars across other sims.
The explanation of how to feel the limit of slip angle is incomplete. It is different if you are in a state oversteer or understeer. You do indeed feel understeer with your hands, as the steering goes light. You should also intuitively feel that the car is "not turning as much as it should" (UNDERsteer). In a state of oversteer, you can not feel self aligning torque because it is the REAR wheels that are getting to the limit first, and those aligning torques react into the suspension, as the rear wheels are not steered.
Great question! It's not easy because of the power steering. Without it, the steering effort would reach peak just before the tires reach optimal slip angle. But if everything is numb, you'll have to rely on other techniques. One such technique is the 'grip test' - it's something I teach to students pretty early on and it takes an amount of intentional practice to internalize it. I'm not sure it's something I can explain in a few sentences. I might try to put a video together some point in the future, but in the meantime, you may find some information on this and other topics on my discord. Just go to discord.lasttenth.com.
Does the extra grip from peak slip angle grip and peak slip ratio grip fight each other for the traction budget or are they complimentary and thus maximizing both at the same time (if/when possible) is how to extract the absolute maximum level of grip possible from a tire?
That's a good question because the tire is never in pure lateral or longitudinal slip, but rather in combined slip. The way to think of it is perhaps using the traction circle - there is only so much long/lat force a tire can maintain at a given time. If we think of it in terms of slip, then at a given slip angle (ratio), the amount of lat (long) force a tire generates will decrease with increasing slip ratio (angle). Now, the question is then, if say, you start adding long slip into lat slip, how does that affect the optimal slip angle? And as you add long slip, how does the actual slip angle change? There are various models that account for combined slip but admittedly I'm not well-read enough to answer either question. However, my guess is [fact check required] that as you add one slip on top of the other, the optimal slip angle/ratio will start to decrease; the ‘legs’ are no longer ‘bending’ solely long/lat, but diagonally, so the axial components of the ‘optimal bending’ should be smaller.
@@DrR1pper make sense dont mean is true 👌🏻 tire if have 1,2 g latteral max than must have 1,2 g lingitudal max what only can impact on this 💩 is weight distribution and how many tires drive car if we compare max lateral to longitudal Gforce 🐵 this also make sense 🥳 but if this is true ?
@@mociczyczki I don’t think it matters the direction. The 1.2g max is the total slip vector. As I’ve sipped my morning coffee on my morning walk watching cars go by, I’ve realised also that better steering performance/responsiveness does not just come from greater front tyre weight/load induced grip but also reduced longitudinal slip component of the front trye slip vector, allowing for greater lateral slip. Two birds, one stone.
first question is can tire have biger longitudal than lateraal slip im new in theme for motorcycle this dont matter cos on side is diffrent compound than in middle unless 1 compound tire . unless the same compound can have diffrent longotudal and lateral force .
You mentioned that it isn’t recommended for novice drivers to use tires which have a high grip level but small window for slip angle. Well, it really isn’t a good idea for almost anyone to use such tires. I remember reading about this very subject about 25 years ago, regarding 500cc GP bikes. There were VERY few riders who could make use of the extra grip afforded by tires with a construction which are exactly like those you spoke of. Essentially only the absolute best, highest level riders, guys like Mick Doohan and Wayne Rainey could actually use tires with that sort of construction and not only use them but really use them, taking full advantage of the extra grip. But for literally almost the entire rest of the field simply couldn’t ride tires like that because they just don’t have enough feel and feedback, such that it’s exceedingly difficult to know when you’re approaching the absolute limit of the tires as they don’t provide much feel and when the grip runs out, they weren’t progressive at all, they just lost traction so quickly and it was near impossible to get it back once that happened. For the rest of the field, everyone would get better lap times using tires which had quite a bit less overall grip but a huge window and HEAPS of feedback. Nice vids you’ve got on your channel, keep em coming!
In four wheeled vehicles with relatively square tires, even a very mediocre driver will go faster on grippier tires even if they provide less feedback. The difference isn't that large once up to temp. I don't know much about bikes, but I would guess that the grippier tires were under temp and everyone was spinning before getting them up to temp. Slicks can have quite large dropoff when cold.
Well if we are to be technical about it, a slip angle is a consequence of a tire being turned away from the direction of travel, and not a consequence of pushing it to the 'grip limit'. Also, there's no 'grip limit'. A tire generates an amount of force based on many factors, and this force can be higher or lower depending on these factors. You can change the conditions so the that force is higher or lower, but there is no ceiling and it cannot be underused.
![3 Things You're Doing WRONG in SimRacing and Track Driving [TIPS for NOVICE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/a0buRXojC_k/mqdefault.jpg)
![3 Things You're Doing WRONG in SimRacing and Track Driving [TIPS for NOVICE]](/img/tr.png)
My god, finially an accurate description of slip angle. So many people think its a measurement of oversteer.
The two are very connected, but not the same.
Thanks! Yeah one way to derive under/over steer is to compare the front and rear slip angles.
@@LastTenth one thing i still dont understand is what it means to be on the left side of the peak grip slip angle. does that just mean you arent moving fast enough to utilize the tires capabilities? thats what it seems like to me.
so for example in a skidpad test, if you can do the circle at 50 mph, 45 mph would be to the left of the peak (where nothing bad is happening, you just arent going as fast as you could), and 55 mph would be on the right of the peak (where you would be losing traction and need to correct). is that correct?
@@Scotty-vs4lfI'm assuming this is in reference to a cornering stiffness graph, in which case the left side would mean that the slip angle is below that of which the tire generates the most turning force. So it doesn't really have much to do with speed, but more to do with slip angle being too low.
What's amazing is that a talented driver knows all of this without even knowing it or being able to explain it to anyone else.
Yeah all those years of just doing it from a very young age, to the point they just instinctively know how to do it (correctly), sometimes without really knowing what they are doing.
For SIM drivers, make sure that you tweak your FFB so that you can actually feel when the maximum steering strength starts to drop off.
Very good point!
In AMS2 cFFB file adjust the slide_factor value, and in AC+CM select the Enhanced understeer effect in the controller section. I’m not sure if the other SIzm titles give you this option.
Too bad that the force feedback in GT7 is utter garbage. Some of the cars are just modelled incorrectly. The new Civic Type R and GR Corolla are both nearly undrivable with a wheel anyway, never mind slip angles and feedback.
@@CaptainCrunch99I wouldn’t recommend enhanced understeer in AC. You can definitively feel the force peak without it, and the enhanced effect is so extreme that it feels very odd when the wheel suddenly loses almost all force.
@@cmbaileytstc SAT drops off too harshly in vanilla AC to begin with. There isn't that much feedback.
The leg explanation was genious!
Thanks!!
Superb technical, yet understandable video.
Glad you liked it!
i feel like we need an advanced series of masterclasses on this topic, especially as it relates to the other factors mentioned, including pro driver interpretations of these concepts against developing a setup at various tracks in various conditions.
That's a great idea!! Comparing what a driver 'feels' and what is in the data, and how this translates to a setup would be very interesting. I've been working with various drivers on setting up their car, and I want to make a series out of it, but unfortunately I hadn't recorded any of those sessions. But it'll come!
@@LastTenth + THE RAIN SOON!
It's so mad watching this because I worked this out intuitively by watching old Micheal Schumacher onboards. I think he was in particular a master as slipping round corners. It's mad seeing this explained in a scientific way cause it reaffirms what I'm doing.
Also, I think it's one thing to get good at slip, but then when you learn to tune to get good rotation, combined with slipping this is the ultimate fastest way around most tracks. Learning to control the slip whilst being able to induce rotation will allow you to carry so much speed through corners. I think this is the main difference between the good and the absolute best. The guys who are comfortable with this are the fastest.
I take it "mad" is good? =]
Yes, as you described, the chassis will have an overall slip angle, just like tires do. When you corner, there is invariably some amount of chassis slip. And just like tires again, there are drawback to too much chassis slip.
@@LastTenth Haha yes sorry :) Where I'm from mad means good for some reason
Cool vid. I found the tire grip curves very enlightening. I have seen explanations that optimal slip gets the car to rotate, but this made it clearer to me. Ability to turn at speed demands grip. Maximizing grip therefore is required to maximize how much speed can be carried through the turn. 💡
The stuff about contact patch and crab walking also super helpful to give intuition as to how slip and slide differ.
This is what actually i was looking 4 thanks
This is an excellent lesson. I was recently working with a student that was struggling with corner exit as they were getting on throttle to early and then compensating by adding more steering input. This vid explains the problem this creates and why very well. One of your best videos yet. Keep ‘em coming.
Thanks Chris! Remind me of a student I had that did the same thing. I told him he wasn't allowed to get on the throttle until he started unwinding his wheel.
Very clear explanation!
Oustanding video! Subscribed
Thanks!
This man deserves more subs and views. Brilliant video!
I LOVE YOU TOO!!!!
Wonderful explanation. Thanks a lot?
Nice! I was just watching all your videos right before you uploaded this one. I just saw that you uploaded right now👍
Thank you so much. I learned something new in this one!
Very happy to hear that!!
Another fantastic video! I love your channel and I hope you get the following you deserve!
Thank you so much! I hope so too!! lol
Great work!
Thanks Robert! Glad you think so!
Very thorough. And you didn't confuse yaw with slip angle like half the internet does.
I wish you mentioned that slip angle is the result of grip and not the cause of grip.
Thanks! If by (cornering) grip we are talking about the lateral force generated by the tire, then yes the grip is generated because of the slip angle.
@@LastTenth is that any literature you can recommend that says that?
@@0foxgiven Race Car Vehicle Dynamics (Milliken & Milliken) is a good one for reference (for that topic and pretty much any basics to do with vehicle dynamics).. Also, to clarify, there are situations where a lateral force creates a slip angle, such as a car experiencing crosswinds or driving on a banked road. This external force will accelerate the car laterally, creating a slip angle, but the lateral tire force ("grip") is still generated as a result of that slip angle, which partially counteracts the external force.
@@LastTenth Milliken specifically says they both cause each other. He says the front wheels, get slip angle, therefore generate lateral force. The rear therefore has to deal with the lateral force due to "centrifugal force" and generates slip angle as a result.
Other books, like chassis handbook by heißing don't mention the cause/effect.
Interesting interaction between the two for sure.
@@0foxgiven Interesting indeed. Milliken also gives examples of where a lateral force gives rise to a slip angle, and all these examples are external forces (eg. wind). This slip angle then creates a tire force (grip) that partially offsets the external force. I think it's worthwhile to make the distinction between an external force and a tire force. Milliken is very explicit in stating that all tire force (grip) is a result of some slip at the tire print (contact patch).
Regarding rear wheel slip angle - when the front tire(s) have a slip angle and create a lateral force at the front axle, this creates a yaw moment, rotating the car. This rotation gives rise to a chassis slip angle, and subsequently a rear axle slip angle as well, which creates it's own lateral force via the rear tire(s). Remember, centrifugal force is not a real force except perhaps in a rotating system (frame of reference). A turning car does not experience centrifugal force.
I find AC gives the most realistic slip angle.
Forza motorsport isnt bad eitjer as you can really feel tje weight of the car but has a weird momemt between understeer and oversteer.
AMS2 has the best slip angle model for fun. Its actually amazing how much you can drive with your feet in a GT classic posche on Nordschleife in AMS2.
ACC its like it doesn't play into it or it does, but you're not feeling it as much. But I think thats pretty consistent with GT3 cars across other sims.
Neat info, thanks! I don't do other sims much so it's educational to hear how other sims differ.
@@LastTenththanks for reading.
It's fun to share these interests with others
Great video man!
Thanks Tony!
Wow, I feel like you only scratched the surface. (No pun intended)
😂
Well I try to keep things fairly simple and limited to the topic at hand. Otherwise it will be a 60 min video.
@@LastTenth Honestly being tongue in cheek. It was very informative. keep up the good work!
👍🏻
The explanation of how to feel the limit of slip angle is incomplete. It is different if you are in a state oversteer or understeer. You do indeed feel understeer with your hands, as the steering goes light. You should also intuitively feel that the car is "not turning as much as it should" (UNDERsteer). In a state of oversteer, you can not feel self aligning torque because it is the REAR wheels that are getting to the limit first, and those aligning torques react into the suspension, as the rear wheels are not steered.
It may not be faster, but it's fun..er.
how can i know when im on the best slip angle in a road car that has power steering?
Great question! It's not easy because of the power steering. Without it, the steering effort would reach peak just before the tires reach optimal slip angle. But if everything is numb, you'll have to rely on other techniques. One such technique is the 'grip test' - it's something I teach to students pretty early on and it takes an amount of intentional practice to internalize it. I'm not sure it's something I can explain in a few sentences. I might try to put a video together some point in the future, but in the meantime, you may find some information on this and other topics on my discord. Just go to discord.lasttenth.com.
@@LastTenth
Thanks! Can't wait for the video!
Does the extra grip from peak slip angle grip and peak slip ratio grip fight each other for the traction budget or are they complimentary and thus maximizing both at the same time (if/when possible) is how to extract the absolute maximum level of grip possible from a tire?
That's a good question because the tire is never in pure lateral or longitudinal slip, but rather in combined slip. The way to think of it is perhaps using the traction circle - there is only so much long/lat force a tire can maintain at a given time. If we think of it in terms of slip, then at a given slip angle (ratio), the amount of lat (long) force a tire generates will decrease with increasing slip ratio (angle).
Now, the question is then, if say, you start adding long slip into lat slip, how does that affect the optimal slip angle? And as you add long slip, how does the actual slip angle change? There are various models that account for combined slip but admittedly I'm not well-read enough to answer either question. However, my guess is [fact check required] that as you add one slip on top of the other, the optimal slip angle/ratio will start to decrease; the ‘legs’ are no longer ‘bending’ solely long/lat, but diagonally, so the axial components of the ‘optimal bending’ should be smaller.
@@LastTenth thank you very much for taking the time to reply. Makes sense.
@@DrR1pper make sense dont mean is true 👌🏻 tire if have 1,2 g latteral max than must have 1,2 g lingitudal max what only can impact on this 💩 is weight distribution and how many tires drive car if we compare max lateral to longitudal Gforce 🐵 this also make sense 🥳 but if this is true ?
@@mociczyczki I don’t think it matters the direction. The 1.2g max is the total slip vector. As I’ve sipped my morning coffee on my morning walk watching cars go by, I’ve realised also that better steering performance/responsiveness does not just come from greater front tyre weight/load induced grip but also reduced longitudinal slip component of the front trye slip vector, allowing for greater lateral slip. Two birds, one stone.
first question is can tire have biger longitudal than lateraal slip im new in theme for motorcycle this dont matter cos on side is diffrent compound than in middle unless 1 compound tire . unless the same compound can have diffrent longotudal and lateral force .
You mentioned that it isn’t recommended for novice drivers to use tires which have a high grip level but small window for slip angle. Well, it really isn’t a good idea for almost anyone to use such tires. I remember reading about this very subject about 25 years ago, regarding 500cc GP bikes. There were VERY few riders who could make use of the extra grip afforded by tires with a construction which are exactly like those you spoke of. Essentially only the absolute best, highest level riders, guys like Mick Doohan and Wayne Rainey could actually use tires with that sort of construction and not only use them but really use them, taking full advantage of the extra grip. But for literally almost the entire rest of the field simply couldn’t ride tires like that because they just don’t have enough feel and feedback, such that it’s exceedingly difficult to know when you’re approaching the absolute limit of the tires as they don’t provide much feel and when the grip runs out, they weren’t progressive at all, they just lost traction so quickly and it was near impossible to get it back once that happened. For the rest of the field, everyone would get better lap times using tires which had quite a bit less overall grip but a huge window and HEAPS of feedback.
Nice vids you’ve got on your channel, keep em coming!
Thanks, I don't know much about motoGP. That's really neat info!
Motorcycling is very different from driving a car, though. A small slide on a bike can mean lights out. Having four wheels is much more forgiving
In four wheeled vehicles with relatively square tires, even a very mediocre driver will go faster on grippier tires even if they provide less feedback. The difference isn't that large once up to temp.
I don't know much about bikes, but I would guess that the grippier tires were under temp and everyone was spinning before getting them up to temp. Slicks can have quite large dropoff when cold.
Slip angle is not a technique of driving, it is a consequence of pushing on the limit grip.
Well if we are to be technical about it, a slip angle is a consequence of a tire being turned away from the direction of travel, and not a consequence of pushing it to the 'grip limit'. Also, there's no 'grip limit'. A tire generates an amount of force based on many factors, and this force can be higher or lower depending on these factors. You can change the conditions so the that force is higher or lower, but there is no ceiling and it cannot be underused.
"Should you avoid it?"
How is this guy a physicist? There is no way to turn a corner without the slip phenomena.
You can avoid it with different compounds, some slip less then others