Destiny's Ethics Tested by CosmicSkeptic
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- Опубликовано: 14 май 2024
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- VIDEO NOTES
Steven Kenneth Bonnell II, known online as Destiny, is an American internet personality and political commentator.
- LINKS
Destiny on RUclips: / destiny
- TIMESTAMPS
0:00 Coming up
1:05 "Destiny" and "CosmicSkeptic"
4:02 What is Destiny's ethical worldview?
42:50 Can ethical intuitions produce objective morality?
1:29:31 Destiny's views on animal ethics
2:15:15 Outro
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The audio of this episode was produced by Charlie Shan: www.shanmusic.co.uk
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So, should this channel change its name? Also: remember that the Within Reason podcast is available on Spotify and Apple Podcasts if you prefer to listen that way!
Nope! CosmicSkeptic is like your brand at this point. I think you should keep it.
It's clear you want to. Is this a case of sunk cost?
Up to you of course. CosmicSkeptic is a fine name, but you could probably change it to your name at this point.
I've had issues with somewhat annoying 'brand' name that was made by 15 years old long ago and now didn't really represented the product. Felt like we should change it but when we tried it seemed to confuse followers. When you've spent years building a brand it's worth more than you'd think. But Lex Friedman successfully changed the name of his podcast. And Marathon bars became Snickers... Who knows. Try it and see.
Yes. You've outgrown it. New brand is cool.
I was shocked to find out Alex is just 24 and grew up poor. He's very inspirational and a great representative for the UK!
Shocked? Why?
@@Stephen-so9oi he is extremely good at speaking, has seemingly very high education etc... Which are thongs you are less likely to have the ability to access if growing up disatvantaged, also hes very wise, cool and calm for a 24 year old man
@@griffo73 he never grew up disadvantaged, I grew up the same. A low income family isn't a disadvantage, In the west that's the norm lol. I'm from the UK and I know people just like him, who have no formal education too. Unlike both me and Cosmic and its simply down to how you hold yourself.
Don't fall for the low income family = disadvantaged. Many low income families are right in ethics, and lack brains, and when a good son or daughter is born with some they have a great combination. Sadly I was made a black sheep. Yet the point being, it doesn't stop you doing anything else 90% of other people can't do.
😂
Well he sounds like he's born into serious wealth, but he wasn't! So good on him I say. Not that there's anything wrong with being born into wealth but I think we naturally prefer those who haven't.
I've never seen someone who Destiny struggled so hard with but also didn't devolve into boredom or personal attack which means he respects you alot. Good job.
Destiny is always in a good mood if people are respectful and in good faith.
Destiny's respect doesn't matter
@@ChildrensRightsFirst947 Exactly what I was thinking. Why does the respect of a midwit who was so easily exposed for being a sophist matter at all?
@@jordane5150 Only sophists call people sophists, you can't prove me wrong.
@@csbrooks if you’re implying that I’m a sophist for calling Destiny a sophist, then you have in fact called me a sophist, making yourself a sophist by your own standards, and as a consequence of which rendered your own claim invalid. Check mate, sophists.
I'm so glad Alex is still having conversations about animal rights
I cant stand vegans
1,2,3 sing! Eating animals is wrong, Mcdonalds! Hurting animals is wrong, Mcdonalds! Share this song! And change your entire menu to be vegan from now on!
@somerandompatriotsfan4415. ... this is not how you convince people of your views.
@@fatboyinasandpit3434 i cant stand vegans
@@fatboyinasandpit3434 I wasn’t attempting to convince anyone to believe anything
There’s a lot of holes in destiny’s philosophy
He has political beliefs. He's felt a lack of power throughout his life, and he's developed views on how that power is distributed throughout society. It's like someone who has a good ear for music, but then has to go back and understand why they play good music in music theory. The same for Destiny. He'll have to venture back to philosophy to align properly and become consciously competent in his ideas and razor-sharp wit. In some ways, I find him a bit nauseating, but I respect his intellect. Anyone talking about important ideas should be applauded.
Ive never heard of cosmic skeptic but for some reason i felt like he knew what destiny would say and had an immediate response. Dude seems very well read and i cant wait to dive into more of his content.
Trust me, its worth it!
You won't be disappointed. I especially recommend his videos with Rationality Rules. Some of them are a bit older but they're all great philosophical content.
Alex is one of the most interesting people I’ve seen in a long time. Have fun.
Alex is like a mix between Hitchen’s and Sam Harris but with a more modern style. He’s wicked smart.. or wicked smaht as they might say in Boston.
@@MMAGamblingTips I wouldn't say he's like Hitchens, his style was way more aggressive and intense, rightfully so. Cosmic is very laid back in his approach, i think
My favorite part was when Alex turned on his gravity boots and fell from the ceiling to the floor and said “Names Cosmic… Cosmic Skeptic.” And shot the high evolutionary in the chest with his laser cannon.
That was one of my favorites parts aswell, but I prefered when he became The Creator of the Universe himself because of the believe that all atheist have about being their own Gods
I do hope you write and that you will send me a link to your work 😂 what a fantastic couple of sentences.
That was certainly one of the moments in history.
@@NickBollingerMusic it’s a reference to the guardians of the galaxy I think, like the movies, so you could watch those
At least this joke is slightly different
Watching just one video on Alex's channel would make it clear that you're dealing with a very intelligent, good-faith person approaching subjects with genuine curiosity and due depth. Can't wait to watch more vids. This was a fascinating conversation.
I've been binging your videos. Love your mix of interviewing and philosophical build work. Really cool way of getting to know someone whilst also challenging them on their foundations.
WOAH this is a crossover we don't deserve but absolutely do need.
I was literally thinking about it a couple of days ago
BRO SAAAME!!!
100%
YES
the crossover we didn't know we needed.
The CosmicSkeptic name is iconic. My vote is don't change it.
I challenge you to a duel.
@@reasonablevegan K. Where at.
@@dannyboi_663 my livestream
@@reasonablevegan Ha wait so you're serious. What is the debate topic?
@@dannyboi_663 yes, but not really about his name. Wanna talk veganism?
Great conversation. It was nice seeing you push him. Very "satisfying" - to quote you two. 😊
Very interesting conversation - I certainly wish for a continuation.
I liked when the CosmicSkeptic was like "Its skeptic time", and skeptic'ed all over the place. Great episode, keep it up!
Yea but it was even better when Destiny was like “ITS STEVIN’ TIME” and started to morally justify incest
@@bert0534 no
It's Morbin time
@gaussminigun classic anti- intellectual
@@bert0534 the weird thing about incest is no one knows why its wrong but every culture thinks its wrong (even if they define it differently)
FINALLY someone who can really put Destiny's feet to the fire on these fundamental questions. Been a fan of both of your channels for a long time and I'm very happy that you two finally had a discussion.
i wonder how much crossover is between there fanbases
@@TopHatMate888 Well i’ve never heard of destiny before now
Mr O’Connor constantly says ‘We can’t explain X’, when what he means is that he, having been miseducated, doesn’t understand X. This is the problem with philosophy; it leads people to be unaware of how much they don’t know.
My guess is it's pretty considerable based on the comments and the types platforms they run. They're both intelligent people who hold left-leaning political views and appeal to an edgier audience
isn't hanging out with bigots like Fuentes a better ethical questional than eating a fucking egg? lol
Man, what a fantastic collaboration. Really enjoyed the brain massaging interview, you both are super well-read and it's a joy to listen in :)
People like you should really read a book sometimes
AMAZING CONVERSATION, FELLAS!
Definitely gained a ton of respect for both parties! 🙏🏻
I’m such a fan of the both of you and to see Destiny properly challenged on Ethics is a breath of fresh air.
Same!!
His philosophical egoism and nihilism is his weakest link especially around the topics of veganism and what we owe each other. I found it so funny when he debated vegangainz or whatever and everyone in the comments (and me) was like “uh I guess I’d rather be a vegan than believe whatever destiny claims to believe.” Same situation when he was talking about how torturing a turtle is bad but ultimately neutral or when he talked about how he only cares about his son insofar as it beings him happiness. A statement I just flat out don’t believe since it’s pretty clear he was just biting the bullet since his worldview cornered him into such a ludicrous claim. One of destiny’s primary blind spots is his below average emotional empathy which he makes up for with a high level of integrity, courage and honesty, but still, dudes heart is closed off.
You're a fan of Destiny? The guhy with one of the vilest, most depraved positions I've ever had the misfortune to have forced into my ears? Jesus Christ, what's wrong with you.
Totally agree!
Yeah, I only see him debating absolute idiots, so it’s nice to see him talking to someone who is actually intelligent and educated.
This is the video I never knew I always wanted.
The opening alone is pure gold.
VeganGains is going to call in to Destiny and complain about cosmicskeptic.
@@TheKomentor haha that would be crazyy :v
NeoDestiny (completely forgot his boring real name), does not understand the idea of goals-based ethical frameworks which would be prone to adaptability based on known or new facts and would remove the false deontology idea that we just “feel” our morals as preferences. So far I’ve gottten to @32:30
In so far as goals are preferences, they would still supersede the non-utilitarian de ontological idea that morals should just be thoughtless short-term/knee-jerk feelings.
At @1:18:00 we begin to see that there are fundamental blinders placed in this video’s discussion, because again, we can know “the fact of the matter” when in pertains to how to best achieve goals in our current physical universe. As such, taste preferences would be largely trivialized for “more important” goal preferences which we can actually involve math and testing in.
Destiny when he encounters an actual smart person:
Ben Shapiro is not smart?
I love the smugness of comments like this. Top tier cringeness.
This was a great conversation
What i like about this conversation is how verbally non-judgemental you were and how you spent the majority of the time just trying to understand his perspective by carefully questioning him, which is a real breath of fresh air for a destiny viewer having to sit through raids and raids of people who just couldn't hold their loads; it did seem like you both were low-key fed up with each other by some point though lol
I'm still holding my load
They’re cut from the same cloth tbh. Both of them are able to freely evaluate ideas without the veil of ideology. That doesn’t mean they’re perfect or not stubborn, but it does make them very transparent and easy to understand
If Alex’s argumentation style was more aggressive he could have made Destiny look incredibly stupid.
Destiny still came out looking stupid IMO.
@@BrockNelsonTo be honest, if he would go for Destiny then Destiny would play a defensive game proving that Alex is imposing his moral system on him etc. Alex pointing out incoherence in Destiny's own system exposed his hypocrisy to the viewer much better.
@@BrockNelson This was destined to be a class on philosophy for Destiny. If you watch any of Destiny's content, you quickly realize that it is a channel on politics that 1% of the time slightly touches philosophy, while CS is specialized in the topics discussed in the video.
I'm so glad that you challenged Destiny on the meta-ethics and animal ethics issue. These are probably the two of the most major things I disagree with Destiny about, and it was refreshing to have seen him being challenged on that. I'm even more glad that you demonstrated to him how his positions on animal ethics led him to a worldview that is incongruent with his fundamental intuitions.
Regardless, it was fucking amazing to have seen you both together, and I really hope you do it again sometime.
DGGer here and I agree. Destiny seems to jump around between 2 different arguments when it comes to his ethical position on animals. One being "well we can't know for sure that animals don't experience sentience like us humans so it's ok to treat them like non-sentient beings" and the other being about how animals aren't part of the equation that forms his "ethical egoism" framework.
For the second argument, you could make a case that a mentally underdeveloped person or a baby wouldn't fit the obligations that would prohibit their killings so he has to jump to argument 1.
Personally I think Veganism has always been his Achilles heels and the last quarter of the video shows this. Really good convo though!
Destiny also doesn't know the literature on animal intelligence. He commented on ravens, but doesn't realize that ravens do communicate literally generationally. He chalks up language as speech, which discounts other forms of communication (even sign language) - we don't need to talk to communicate. So even if ravens don't pick up human level speech, they are still cognitively engaged in generational knowledge sharing.
Having had a vegan roommate who had the ungodly patience to debate his ethics for i guess 3 months, i love that Destiny ended up at my last remaining Argument: it tastes good and i like it! Everything else is some form of cope. Since then i had a lot of respect for vegans for living their values :)
@@Firehazard159 True, ravens can also hold grudges and can reciprocate with other animals of different species generationally too
@Chris Andersen to be honest though, intelligence is a complete red herring for the animal ethics discussion. Basically no one believes that we should give ethical consideration to humans based on their level of intelligence. Why should it be any different for other animals? Destiny basically has no argument other than just admitting he doesn't care about hurting animals. Him trying to argue that maybe animals don't feel pain and that it's all really just vegans being too sensitive and anthropomorphizing animals is ridiculous. Anyone denying that cows and dogs feel pain in the 21st century is off their nut. I personally don't care if a certain being has an IQ of zero. If they can feel pain, then they deserve our consideration. I feel like, based on Destint's logic, you could equally argue that only sentient, human, Caucasians deserve moral consideration. You're just adding one more qualifier to the list that destiny has. Who's to say that's not just as correct? Destiny is just gonna keep getting backed into corners by smart people if he doesn't adopt a more credible view on this issue.
Jonathan Pageau is helping here a lot. Words that will help sort this conversation is "hierarchy" and "patterns".
Alex gained a lot of respect in my eyes.
Thank you for this discussion! It's so rare these days to find civil discourse where ideas are actually exchanged and pondered in good faith. Really interesting points brought up from both parties!
Ooooh, this is gonna be a good one.
😮 oh shit *a wild scare theatre has appeared*
Never thought I would see scare theatre here lol
I would never expect to see you in the comments of this video
I knew you were an atheist!
you here haha
I’m a Christian and have been following Alex since he appeared on Unbelievable with Justin Brierley. I appreciate how bloody smart the guy is, and how he avoids strawmanning and listening purely to make his next talking point. Keep it up Alex!
Except that my listening intently to the talking points of his guests, he might allow the "spaghetti to the wall" strategy his guests often use to disseminate their ideas and prestige. Nice of him to not necessarily care about testable socio-psychological impacts, very "ivory tower" philosophy of him. Makes sense that those that disagree with him would like it. I do still like the verbally non-judgmental and carefully steel-maning part of his style, though. Details are important, monkey-level discussions are not so useful even if they can be entertaining or "more" entertaining given the majority/mode consumer.
I like his demeanor, and he is definitely smart, but I seriously doubt his philosophical knowledge. Look Jay Dyer critique of his debates to have a Christian perspective of his (lack of) epistemological justification.
@@issaavedra hey man I would love to and do a lot of the times but literally every single religious source I check now that I have a good bit of knowledge on the subject is not great to put it lightly so can you tell me why I should check urs
@@letsomethingshine I got you, as you can see bro did not like the line of questioning they were going down so maybe he keeps it light to not scare off people like destiny. What do you think
@@letsomethingshine 🤓
I relate to Destiny’s disinterest in ethics but also understand the importance of it. This was great!
I do to, not everyone is trying to justify their foundational views, no one’s willing to accept that logic and reasoning can’t help you there
Same. I find it interesting and useful but ultimately end up more interested in application and how humans act like Destiny tends to in this video, not that I completely I agree with destiny on things.
It's pretty easy to act morally. You don't have to get bored on the application of it. Just stop buying dead animal products.
@@tecategpt1959but on some level if your views cannot be justified, then why should people who disagree with you listen to you?
@@_Sloppyham based on personal experience or have similar thought processes as you do and other things. People like destiny mainly because he’s one of the only left leaning people who engage so outwardly and speak so loudly of what he thinks. Not everything he says is going to have a strong metaphysical foundation, we call it rhetoric, borderline sophistry even, but that is the nature of online discourse. Like im certain a smarter person can dismember Alex’s ethics as much as he did with Destiny’s. He’s an emotivist after all, and plays devils advocate far too much in these interviews like he in any way has a greater foundation than destiny’s
Finally an interesting morality debate. Thank you both! 🙏🏻
Someone reading back intentionally inflammatory quotes is the funniest shit I’ve ever heard and is probably my favorite thing about watching destiny content, because it happens so much
The Piers moment was incredible 😂😂
I've seen most of the content from both of these creators and I never would've guessed they'd come together. I'll say I've never seen Destiny squirm this much. Interesting Convo.
Yeah. It's really nice seeing destiny properly challenged by someone intelligent. He's so used to running circles around idiots that I think it's good for him to be shown that he too still has moral/intellectual blind spots.
@@skullkrusher4418 I think I also noticed that Steven actually really enjoyed how much he had to work through his own beliefs as they were constantly challenged with very thorough questioning. Very good stuff!
I didn't like it so much. It was missing the flow that both of them usually have in conversation. It just felt like Alex was trying to dominate him. Super weird. He never acts like this. If he had a problem, he should have aired it out right away and moved on. Kind of immature, but he is young.
@@LoveJungle420 You think Alex was being immature here? How?
@@LoveJungle420 he was fine, you tool. Got over yourself gramps
I really appreciate the way you both articulate. I have been a long time Alex watcher and recently started watching Destiny's stuff. I really find both of your approaches are really good at sinking into my brain in a way I can understand and sometimes sinks deeper into the mind. I would love another podcast on anything no matter what the topic
destiny's opinions on animals is painfully stupid
Found your channel through destiny. Earned a new subscriber, good stuff!
wow. this is how the perfect conversation would go. then entire time i kept waiting for someone to finally get triggered and go off but they both listened to each other and addressed each others points beautifully
THis is absolutely crazy, I was literally thinking to my self "Man I would love to hear alex have a philosophical talk with destiny" and BAM the next day it happens. Unreal, keep up the great work Alex, really looking forward to this discussion
That's how far Google has gone in spying on us
Edit: I forgot this is the internet, and I need to clarify that this is a joke
Have you considered that was jebus working in your life? 😮
Can you please idly think to yourself how you'd love it if I suddenly inherited ten million dollars from a dead wealthy relative I didn't know about? It's a long shot but it's worth a try!
THIS IS LITERALLY
U manifested it thank u
I really appreciate you two. Excellent idea.
Nice conversation :) thanks!
Perhaps the best 2+ hours of my time I've spent on YT all year. What a fantastic conversation! Thanks Alex and Destiny.
"Where did I go wrong?" Wow. Alex's conversational skills are next level. So logical and intuitive
This is a crossover I never would have thought happened been watching both for awhile.
This conversation is absolutely spectacular on all levels and I'm incredibly happy two of my favourite minds have come together for these discussions.
I really hope we're going to get more of this in the future.
I've been waiting for these two people to have a conversation/debate for years. Lots of props to both of you.
I did not expect this conversation to be this fascinating. More please!
I'm shocked I didn't know this conversation happened until just now. Have listened to hours of both these guys in other convos. Already know it'll be well worth it
You're both such wonderful forces for critical thought. Loved this!
This was a spectacular conversation. So many important and fundamental topics raised. Would love to see another one.
I thoroughly enjoyed this. You managed to actually make Steve show his deeply human and emotional side. I have almost infinite capacity to listen to you talk dude. You are such a welcome coherent voice.
That side comes out a lot
You must be a new dgger
I like when Destiny said the distinction between the “grand beauty of a tree” and a sentient animal is arbitrary.
I also liked when he called nonhuman animals “philosophical zombies”.
He literally sounds like a sociopath when discussing animal ethics.
Destiny seems more zombie than my dog. Guy is certified sociopath. When his best friend asked if he should commit suicide he said go for it. one of the rare insane streamer
@@matthewzang6688you should check waht happened with all his dogs
Is "deeply human" a euphemism for "dumb"?
Great convo. Coming from a Destiny fan, you kinda wiped the floor with him...
Destiny puts a lot more time into politics than just philosophy. True though
@@the0nlytrueprophet942 but does he? Lol
@@shirinatron3585 He definitely does autistic amount of reading etc, even if you disagree with him
Only a Destiny fan would see every conversation as an opportunity for one side to dunk on the other. Not everything has to be a debate.
@@cheeseofultimatedoom My comment was meant to be taken as a bit of fun. Take it as hyperbole.
Excellent video, enjoyed it a lot!
I can sum up this whole video:
“How do we prove murder is wrong”
“🤷♂️”
might makes right is the only solution to the moral question
Might doesn't make one right, it is only strength absent morality.
destiny is cluess and beta as they come
Exactly lol, I felt like Destiny was trying to solve hypothetical moral delimmas with adjacent ideas from real life which defeats their very purpose. All that just to stick to his original idea lol.
@@Kyoth3Not true at all. His Argument ist simply that morals are a mechanism by that humanity tries to create the best Environment for the human species because we are part of it and can use the beneficial of said society.
Definitely wasn't expecting this collab. This was a very fun conversation!
I really enjoyed this. Destiny has rarely come up in my mind in a positive light but he was very respectful and I thoroughly enjoyed getting to hear his perspective. Very well done conversation I hope we get to hear from him on this channel again
What negative lights does he come up in?
@@Flixlimlots of people just kind of soy at him. I don't like him that much, but some people have destiny derangement syndrome.
@@benjaminjenkins2384 So you dislike him because of his fanbase?
@@I-am-Hrut i didn't say that?
@@benjaminjenkins2384then what are you saying
1:24:57 "Meeting Eat". Nice to meet you, Eat.
Forgot to mention, to any human that isnt a sociopath or similar, sharing chocolates with others is a benefit to yourself considering that we have evolved to feel good by making people happy, the only exception to this i can think of is sharing to someone you dont like and or doesnt like you.
Based on how destiny views the "sharing chocolate" question, I'm going to guess he is an absolutely trash partner in bed.
@Jon A. Scholt Nope multiple women have fucked him with almost none of them talking smack about him
@Jon A. Scholt Not to mention he has a wife so I think he is doin fine my guy
@@TheSinsOfAvarice97 Steven crowder had a wife, and he clearly wasnt doing fine. I will say though i have no idea why he brought sex into this lol.
@@Lscott-fk2sn Cause crowder is a vindictive dickhead, ayleast from my guess I could be wrong. Destiny isn't a bad guy he just doesn't care that much about these types of conversations I think personally because he hasn't had many people like this dude to push him on it this is my first time seeing him and I'm on his side of the fence but I do think I have an understanding why destiny says what he says
Evolutionary Biology is my field of interest and research. When Destiny says he doesn't find the brain evolution part compelling evidence to recognize animal sentience, I don't think he quite understands the extent to which human behavior and animal behavior is similar, or how these behaviors are known to evolve. When we think Cat vs Human behavior, we tend to emphasize major differences, like how we communicate (meows, blinking, hissing, purring, etc.) or our preferences (cats tend to prefer solitude and crawl into tiny spaces to hide), but we have far more similarities, like how we prefer companionship, or how trauma causes us to remember and avoid triggers, a desire to stay active, need for agency and control, preferences for food (especially when familiar), reaction to pheromones of our species, etc. Cats with alzheimers even exibit very similar breakdowns in mental function like memory loss and anxiety behaviors.
If it were just cats, we could potentially blame convergent evolution for similar behaviorーthat is, animals that exhibit similar behavior due to completely different genes coding for that same behavior. However, so many of these experiences are present in nearly every animal across the board that we would be far safer to assume this "consciousness", which we tend to associate with many of these behaviors in humans, is likely present. In fact, we can already read and identify the origin of many of these behaviors in the genome, and they match our genetics as well.
Even if you argue we can't know for sure, the body of evidence is massive, which is why it's a given in most science institutions that study biology and animal psychology. You're fighting an uphill battle.
You’re obviously more intelligent than I am, but as a lowly man, may I suggest some advice? Great! Ok, so next time you leave such an awesome post, please use paragraphs.
As someone interested in Evolutionary Biology certainly you can respect the intricacies behind how the eyeball formed and functions in us. Ergo, you can appreciate how difficult it is to have to squint and see the text of miniature type. I loved your post but it made my head hurt!! 😢
Thx 🙏🏼
Have to agree with Insidious Gorilla on this one, but regardless, awesome post that I whole heartedly agree with!
@@MMAGamblingTips - I amended the post to try and split it up best I could. I hope that helps.
Ultimately, I don't think sentience really mattes at all. Value is subjective and the only reason to pick one value over another is relative to how it impacts me.
It is trivial to justify caring about other humans from a evolutionary or moral standpoint. Other humans deserve moral consideration simply because I interact with these agents as if they have the ability to confer that consideration unto me. This AFFECTS me directly.
I can project moral consideration unto a lion, but that wouldn't necessarily stop him from eating me. or a cow from shitting on my lawn.
As so far as humans that can't confer consideration unto me, say disabled or low functioning humans, i think it would be inaccurate to say they have consideration directly, but rather indirectly to those around them. Their friends and family value them, and as such we confer moral consideration onto them as PROXY for those actually able to treat us with consideration.
We respect the burial of the dead for example and their bodies why? Not because the bodies themselves have any intrinsic value or moral consideration, but rather their family and friends value them. So we confer value to these bodies because they do. If I started desecrating tombs, because I don't care, those people could literally comb beat the shit out of me. Maybe let's make it a rule that we shouldn't do that.
Similarly, we can justify the care of certain animals. Many people value their pets. We shouldn't hurt them because they are valuable to them. They shouldn't hurt them, because society has valued them. Arbitrary? No more than any other preference any society has or does not have.
And also that fact that humans ARE animals.
Great questioning !!
Such a delicious conversation I came back for seconds
I usually don't watch these until I'm on a walk or something, but I was interested when I saw who you were talking with, I just had to turn it on right away! I hope you two get a chance to have more formal debates and discussions.
Please, we need more of you two together!
Great conversation
Amazing as always, Alex. You are an inspiration.
This was my DREAM crossover. Thank you so much Steven and Alex for making it happen!
Your dream crossover is Alex O'Connor talking to a blue haired loud mouth with no actual knowledge or in ethics? "I hate philosophy" he says while trying to have opinions on everything. Destiny is a joke, a yapping mouth for the lowest common denominator.
Run along troll
Dream wasn't in this
I've been wanting someone to have this conversation with destiny for a long time, glad you did it
18:00 I think the basic justification for morals/ethics comes down to: If I were the most vulnerable, this would principally harm me. And that we all would like to survive our most vulnerable moments.
Man I would love to be part of this kind of conversation with either of these two gentlemen
Alex did an incredible job at pushing back on Destiny for veganism.
Weird that vegans never push back on dog ownership. Must be from Countries that dont have guns.
He did terribly. He just clutched his pearls.
@@D4n1t0o how?
I think both make strong arguments. Morally veganism is still the better choice. Most people, incliding myself, aren't vegans because we lack the self-respect for ourselves, but that's okay I guess.
I was enjoying conversation until Destiny was talking about parrots/ crows and said with a striaght face "i dont know if they are mammals or not" ..... whilst describing birds 😂😂
this is a collab i've always wanted but never expected
Yea.. interesting keep up the prodding Alex!
Great conversation. Would love to see more with Destiny!
Love it when people like this come together and talk. Awesome man!
Please chat again you two. This was fascinating to watch.
damn, you're a really good debater. I wish you would have more conversations with Destiny.
There's so much to learn from every Destiny Video. If you just open notepad and just ask some questions, when the video's over, you see that you have a lot of searching to dod-every time!≠
I loved this conversation. Great pushback from Alex and very interesting topics covered.
In the example of the chocolate bars on the island nobody mentioned the benefit of building rapport and trust with the others you are stranded with. If you find the hidden food yes you can eat it all by yourself, but if you take a gamble and share it with the others you will have gained some of their trust and respect.
They know that you could have eaten it on your own without sharing, but the fact that you were willing to share may improve group cohesiveness and improve your chances of survival. You're also going to have a better chance of surviving if you have help to split up the work of hunting, building tools and shelter, defense, etc. Sharing resources is going to improve your situation in all those ways thereby still maximizing your own well being.
Yup came here looking for that. I'm not sure I support Destiny's entirely self-centered basis for morality, but I think you've laid out the case for how altruism can be "simulated" out of selfishness.
The other possibility Destiny could have brought up is that while you may think you can get away with something, there's always a chance that you get caught. Maybe someone is watching you and you don't know it. Maybe someone else on the island actually hid the chocolate bars there. Maybe someone else also found them, and had just gone off to tell the others. Maybe when you dispose of the chocolate wrappers someone finds them later.
On top of that, there is the "good feeling" we get when we are benevolent. I would personally feel like shit if I ate the chocolates behind the backs of others.
YESSS I KEPT SHOUTING AT MY PHONE SAYING THIS LMFAO
I wondered the exact same thing. It was such a seemingly obvious point. I remember thinking along time ago how Sam Harris's answers to explicit moral questions sounds hilariously similiar to Ayn Rand's Objectivism. I find that Desinty and Harris have a similiar utilitarian morality- a morality that gives answers to ethical question similiar to Objectivism. Though, I wouldn't argue that the two are asymmetrical in any way, just that the problem of how we conceptualize altruism is hard to reproach.
Agree. Also there’s a point where you might satiate on the chocolate. Having 1 or 2 bars might be good but the value of the happiness of other humans might be greater than the happiness of eating the other bars
The Platform is a great movie!
Cool to see him bring it up.
Evolution is a clever route, here.
Thanks for posting this. Have a good one!
We need more of this duo!
🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉❤ yes pleaseeee
Man I don't have time to watch this right now with an exam coming up, but damnit I'm so hyped to watch this when I get a chance.
Good luck on your exam!! ❤
The delayed gratification will be totally worth it I assure you ❤
Good luck on your exam!
!!!REMINDER!!!
PS. hope you passed your exam with flying colors :)
Exams in late May? lol
I came up with this concept a few years ago that's similar to this idea of individually maximizing pleasure and minimizing suffering. My idea centers around the paradigm that giving is better than receiving. Personally, some of the best feelings I've ever felt in life is when my actions cause a clear positive emotional response in another person. I call this moral selfishness -- the act of performing altruistic acts in order to maximize the pleasurable experiences for the actor. I was hoping Alex or someone in the comments could tell me if there is already a word for this and/or if a philosopher has already discussed this concept in detail.
Thank you in advance!
P.S. I haven't seen a CosmicSkeptic video since the conversation with David Benatar over anti-natalism and I immediately recognized you 3 years later! Keep up the good work!!
Same here. There seems to be a predisposition for such a state of mind that exists within all of us. External forces like religion, politics, mysticism, etc may interfere with this idea so we become shitheads.
hat if you just don't feel much from helping others?
@@debrachambers1304 Nothing. Most people only feel good when they can visibly see somone else being happy and grateful for their help and a lot less happy when they just say, donate to a charity. Donating to a charity may do a lot more good than simply helping one individual but you don't feel better about it. This is either because you can't see their reaction or you can't see their appreciation of YOU. It very well may be a selfish feeling coming about because of how another person now sees you and what they may say to others about you.
@@theblackswordsman9951 true
People call that psychological egoism, meaning you fetch towards this pleasurable feeling to justify you helping other people
I agree that there are instances where people can get away with being selfish and maximizing their own reward. However, in reality when you go and share a good with your friends and then accepting knowing that you didnt have to will over time will make them feel like they owe you one. Now, sometimes there is no reward for sharing, and most times I would say this happens, but really it only takes one really good reward to outweigh all the times you received nothing in return. This only works bc we are continuously interacting with the world and we are all somehow connected to each thru mutual friends in some way shape or form and ive had times my good deeds returned to me in weird times bc it would be years later that someone remembered that one moment I had forgotten about. Instant by instant there is no reason not to keep the goods all to yourself unless yk it will absolutely lead to your downfall later on, which is again very case specific
Alex temporarily transformed Steven from a "debate-bro" into a debate brother.
@@joshrees3413 I don't think that's a fair representation of his position.
@@joshrees3413 I think he's apathetic to the whole concept, at least for the tasty ones. Meat consumption has been a part of human society for so long that most people have an easy time disregarding, or not even considering, the quality of life for certain animals.
This was enjoyable as frick. Follow both of these guys and this was just perfect.
How the hell can someone just "not care about animals"? I genuinely cannot understand how that happens?
I agree it seems so bizarre and implausible that someone could claim to literally not care at all about animal suffering. Like if a dog was getting brutally tortured in front of destiny he’d be like ‘lol i don’t care’ 😂😂?? Strikes me as an edgy take with little considered reasoning behind it
Yeah I suspect its not completely genuine which makes it even worse.. he was backtracking towards the end which hints that he thinks they must suffer at least a bit. What an absolute dick
Great episode. Thank you Alex for a lesson in patience and civility.
This is kind of wild. Started watching this channel again after at least a year away and within a week I get the dream crossover. This looks fantastic.
I am an avid Destiny viewer, and I agree with about 90 plus percent on the things he values. I really enjoyed this conversation and I want to hear more from you two. He doesn't usually get people who are on his level of really digging into the foundations of all this stuff. Loved the content, Alex.
He sounds very inconsistent ethically. I'm not sure how anyone can find anything of value from his views?
I had the impression that destiny is sort of a right-wing troll, just based on the people he typically associates with... Seen him siding with sneako, vaush, and other creeps. I don't know what that guy's deal is. Could you summarize his politics for me?
@@loveableheathen7441 He classifies himself as an OmniLiberal (A classification he came up with). He sympathizes with Socialists, but believes most societal problems can be solved through capitalism rather than socialism. In summary, hes pretty far left on social issues, but a social democrat on economic issues
@@samiam7241 thank you
@@loveableheathen7441 he definitely doesn't side with vaush, and he's friends with sneako but they don't agree on many things
Some physics things are not easy to observe. E.g. damage imparted to metal by a hammer strike or the stress loading to a beam.
If every time a person hit another person the person that was hit had parts fly off it would be clear. Human damage often is subtle like the loading to a beam. Then too much happens and then a tipping point shows dramatic change.
On the chocolate question: sharing could still benefit you, because others seeing that you give them something when you didn't have to might motivate them to give you something in return in the future.
I think the reason that Destiny would share out the five chocolate bars is because of his fundamental principle that more people together will make utility greater than the sum of their utility individually (or whatever he said at the start). Unless having the five chocolate bars yourself really does increase your odds of survival, in which case you can''t really blamed him for keeping them all himself. Can't believe how quickly Cosmic was able to unravel him though. Never seen anyone else come close. Really interesting conversation.
Exactly what I was going to say. Even if you could steal the 5 chocolate bars and get away with it, there is still A LOT of value in keeping the other 4 members on that island alive. The value of hearing other people's thoughts, their intellect, manpower and the general need for humans to socialise would absolutely trump the short term value of keeping those 5 chocolate bars for yourself.
He does get unravelled elsewhere; he just deflects normally, or gets annoyed.
@@centerfield6339 Who does that, redpill dumbfks or woke maniacs?
It's easy with critical thinking
@@kiajuma9881 the other´s survival might not be dependent on the chocolate, since there might be other foods that are just less pleasurable to sustain yourself on. On the other hand, if the chocolate bars are literally the only way to keep from starving because everything else is just sand then the value of cooperation is also immediately zero, because sharing just means you´ll starve quickly together, instead of surviving alone (and then starving).
Fab video!
Wow destiny was completely outmatched here
nope
The discussion in the first section reminds me of the difference between the prisoner's dilemma and the itterated prisoner's dilemma. Roughly speaking, In the former, screwing the other person over is the optimal strategy, but when it becomes itterated, the best performing agents are ones that are roughly benevolent except against those that screw others over.
This is game theory, right?
@@JonathanYoungZ_Kaiser it is.
@@JonathanYoungZ_Kaiser Yep
1:53:49 ,Alex has Destiny here and I think he himself knows it "I don't think it's right for me to not have delicious cheeseburgers" is ultimately what it comes down to, there is no rational excuse for how we treat animals. now I'm not a vegan/vegetarian, but I at least recognize that I'm hypocrite in that aspect.
Hypocrite is the wrong word. If you do something that goes against your fundamental moral values, that makes you immoral and pretty much psychopathic.
I think it's an activists job to turn people into hypocrites, as you already recognize your own hypocrisy it's up to you to align your actions to your beliefs, which may seem daunting but personally I found it easier then I thought I would once I had made the decision, I believe in you
To be hypocrite you must lie about what you value and then do that thing you condemn. You are incoherence at best.
The rational excuse for eating meat is that there is no data showing vegan diet to be sustainable for most humans.
I think is great to recognized it as it is, it was painfull but I found it so empowering when I changed ¿what would you say is in your way from becoming one yourself?
I think another valid position is that eating meat is natural, therefore there is nothing inherently wrong with it. If you view the issue simply as one animal eating another animal, what really sets us apart from the rest of the world? Sure, our brains are more complex, and we have a much higher capacity for empathy and other abstract thoughts, but ultimately what’s the difference between a human eating a burger and a wolf eating a deer? I’m not arguing against animal rights here, btw. I’m very much against the current industrial model of farming, but the idea of eating animals itself I have no problems with morally.
as a destiny fan and a fellow brit, from both sides, we appreciate you
ew gross
Awesome. Bravo 👏 👏
Beautiful stuff, just lovely content. Thank you Alex!
would love to see more like this where you and destiny talk for long periods of time
The whole thing about the sharing of food just makes me think of the prisoner's dilemma. Yeah there may be good in keeping the food for myself, but there is MORE good in sharing it, in fostering community, in keeping fellow humans fed so they can help with other things. I think Steven's position on this is very consistent and reasonable.
Depending on the crime, sharing food could foster that crime in the community longer
I think the dilemma also assumes that you are the only person with food which isn’t really consistent with reality. Sharing food encourages other people to share which increases the likelihood of getting food in the future.
@@th3logician
No it doesn't, means you have less food as I'm sure most aren't savvy in agriculture, nor a long enough time to see fruit/veg regrow
@@tonygange7636 I think you may have misunderstood the analogy. The term 'Food' is a proxy for any resource.
I think another thing that is not mentioned is the potential for different kinds of food and our inherent bias toward multiple options. If one person had all chocolate, and another all Caramel, they may disagree as to the value of the individual substances but ultimately will end up in a trade of 'equal value" because BOTH will benefit from the perceived value of the other person's resource. (People value things they don't have over things they do, so whenever people do a trade of equal value they are both gaining something)
If there is a common benefit to sharing the food the dilemma doesn't apply. It's not difficult, however to conceptualise a scenario in which sharing the food doesn't increase your chances of survival.
Suppose your supplies are so limited that you have only enough for one person to survive and there's no apparent way to create more of them.
Your choice is between sharing the supplies and each living for a few days and then eventually you all die or hoarding the supplies and potentially surviving long enough that you alone are rescued.
Many of us still wouldn't hoard the supplies, but that's simply illogical if the only reason we would share is because of an instinct to survive.
Even from the evolutionary psychology argument (which are always dubious at best since we have never performed a psychological experiment on a pre-human) it's more beneficial for one member to survive than none.
The dilemma stems from the fact that we can imagine (and indeed point to real life scenarios) where altruism simply isn't logical but people will still act altruisticly despite any apparent reason.
In the first example of the ethical world view discussion. Using Destiny’s world view, he could have said I would share the food because if not sharing the food leads to the death of the other people, I would no longer have anyone to interact with or collaborate with in future endeavors, leading to my own suffering of loneliness and difficulty of surviving alone. Allowing others around me to suffer and die would not be a benefit to me, and for the examples given, would instead be a detriment.
What if you're skilled enough to look after yourself or the other people are lazy/physically bigger?
@@tonygange7636 He's talking about the mental benefits of social interaction.
@@thesos320
With people you've never met, in a desperate setting. Does depend on circumstances I guess
@@tonygange7636 Yea, I mean, if you were in a setting with people that you hated or had no intention of cooperating or socializing with, I think it's logically consistent that you'd be way less, if at all, morally inclined to share your resources.
@@tonygange7636 That is exactly why ethics and morality are subjective, every judgment should be case by case and is nearly impossible to derive universal truth that are not descriptive.