WHY DID GUILLIMAN TAKE OVER AS LORD COMMANDER? WAS IT THE RIGHT DECISION?
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2024
- Hi everyone Rho here! Today we discuss why Roboute Guilliman took over as Lord Commander of the Imperium from his brother Rogal Dorn!
General Spoiler Warning to begin as the events we are discussing today are from across the Warhammer 40,000 universe. So you have been warned!
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Dorn: "Ugh, paperwork."
Guilliman: "Ooh! Paperwork!"
Guilliman in the 42nd millennium: “Ugh, paperwork.”
About Rogal Dorns grief after the Heresy, there is such a great line in the novel "Apocalypse". A primaris Imperial Fist is asked in current time to describe meeting his gene-father by a Ravenguard marine. He thinks something like; "How to describe a Demigod run down so fare as to almost feel like an ordinary man. The Stone of the Praetorian finally eroded away under the guild of failing his Emperor."
Just finished reading it! Amazing book and a great line!
What does that even mean
@@DouglasCarter69 that Rogal Dorn was a broken shell of his former stolid self.
Probably Dorn was offered it but whatever he saw on the Vengeful Spirit…broke him, vengeance being the only thing on his mind, imagine seeing what happened on the Vengeful Spirit, The Emperor, Horus & Sanguinius as well as he probably feels he’s more suited to Overall command, he sees what Roboute did to Macragge and the 500 worlds and sees that the job of Lord Commander is not just warfare or building but administration.
Dorn was not broken on the Vengeful Spirit his body remained in one unbroken piece
@@ryansauchuk7290 his mind…
@@RPknight101 that went right over your head didn't it. Ever watch TTS?
@@kevincousino2276 one episode along time ago mate. 🤷♂️
@@RPknight101 32-33 episodes. Worth the watch.
The siege probably broke dorn. He wanted to put everything back after it was done but with the emperor broken, the angel dead and him seeing the true horror that his traitor brothers fell to I think it broke something in him.
Roboute tagging in makes sense, the master of defence did his job now the master of statecraft needs to do his.
@Scott Webb aww thanks :)
This is true
its like when you hit 40 years old and you realize your best years are behind you and in order to survive you need to become a corporate whore and sacrifice your dreams you were so close to achieving like having to deal with owning a 5 star restaurant that did not break even and you are forced to sell it. Dorn is realizing that his function was more of a support role for the true heroes like Sanguineous and his father being the master of the dream itself. Dorn lost sight of any purpose and became obsessed with revenge because he had nothing left worth protecting and instead of resigning himself to rot away just existing and depression he went out in a blaze of glory. What could be a better retelling of the iron cage incident is that Dorn changes his legions tactics because hes pissed off and just rushes Pert for personal vengeance and wounds him, forcing him to become a demon prince sooner as he did not expect Dorn to sacrifice his legion for a chance to kill him.
Dorn isnt the restaurant manager, hes not the chef or the wait staff, hes the security chief on all fronts, now the star chef and the owner are dead. Theres no way the food is ever going to be as good as it was ever again and its dubius the new guy is even gonna keep it afloat. Now after 10,000 years has passed what was once a 5 star italian restaurant is still there but it tastes like fucking Olive Garden and the current customer base is telling you the food is good offering you a bite and Guilliman is like ruclips.net/video/BFNPGM-t_UY/видео.html&ab_channel=Hell%27sKitchen
Yeah, Guilliman was the better choice. He's the one with the Emperor's administrative skills. Running an imperium was always his thing. Not that the others couldn't do it, but their real interests seem to lie elsewhere.
No, the others couldn't do it. Most of them were not skilled enough leaders to run anything outside of a military Legion. Planetary governance, usually, it seems, was delegated to others. People like Dorn would do nothing more than perpetuate the Corpse Emperor's domain of suffering, cruelty and death. Subhuman war criminals like Russ and the "Lion" would love nothing more than to create realms of even greater hardship, and total darkness. Under them, the Ruinous Powers are guaranteed the big win. They wouldn't even need Black Crusades, anymore; people would be willingly running into the Primordial Annihilator, in planetary droves. Vulkan, while every bit as kind and Human as Roboute Guilliman, apparently didn't have the Avenging Son's leadership levels, COUPLED with his Humanity. Ferris wouldn't be very well loved, either, and the people of the Imperium would still be consigned to lifetimes of generational pain, suffering and slavery. Sanguinius would quickly earn the hatred of the People. He's kind on one side, and sadistic on the other, and the People would not forget it, when he lost his temper and began ordering wholesale slaughters and exterminations, like his accursed maker. Corax? I love you, but you're too easily spiritually broken, which is good and bad. Corvus Corax is a great man, and probably a Humanitarian, almost on par with Roboute and Vulkan, and it showed with how he cared, personally, for his Raven Guard Legion, but when his experiments were sabotaged by the Alpha Legion, the pain and suffering he wrongfully felt responsible for inflicting upon men that he looked at as his own children was too much for him. Now multiply that on a galactic scale, when he feels for the pain and suffering of countless trillions, and you're looking at a potential suicide watch. I only wonder what Angron would've been like. Finding out how empathetic and kind he truly was, before people destroyed him, and the Corpse Emperor made it worse, just makes me wonder what he'd be like as Regent. I doubt he had the civil governance skills, but as a person, he would've been ABSOLUTELY BELOVED.
I don't think Guilliman actually wants to run the Imperium. I feel he would be happier only dealing with Ultramar.
@@Jaszunai If Emperor wouldn't leave Terra with great Crusade he would continue to expand ultramar be that by sword or pen. But at his own pace not blind charge of great Crusade.
So yes he doesn't want to run Imperium but if he would make it in his own speed he would only see it as ultramar instead of this hell Imperium is
@@Jaszunai I disagree. I believe he wants to enact the reforms he started putting into place in the Realm of Ultramar, into the wider Imperium, and to undo the damage his creator did, and to turn the greater Human dominated galaxy into something like what he came from. Unlike his creator, and most of his "brothers", he actually cares about people, and he actually takes being what he is, seriously. This is one of the reasons he isn't a war criminal, like his creator, like Perturabo, like Russ, like the "Lion", etc. He's thrown himself into the position, because he knows he's the last, best chance Humanity has, and he's not going to mess this up.
@@RobouteGuilliman-M41 good point. I remember the dialogue he had with Dante after the devastation. He made a point to discuss improving peoples lives in order to keep them from turning to chaos. Some thing that the rest of the imperium just can’t seem to understand. That when your people are unhappy, overworked or repressed they will periodically rebel. Any society that promotes more prosperity, encourages reform and gives its citizens hope is less likely to turn to the dark gods. Dante was very impressed with Guiliman. And Dante is no pushover at all. His opinion counts for a lot. Great point and very observant
I just think of Rogal Dorns position as the pretorian of Terra,not the whole imperium.he is best suited to guard and defend the walls around holy Terra and let Guilliman run the Imperium etc
People keep digging at Guilliman for creating Empirium Secundus yet the Emperor knew he was doing it, and was ok with it as it made sense to set up so that if Terra did fall there was a base of operations to begin a fight back.
I agree. It's not like He intentionally chose to not go to Tera. He could not! He was not the Emperor anyway. He was the third leg. The Lion was the Warmaster. Why not don't criticize him? Guilliman did the right thing. He should not be faulted for having the strategic mind to think beyond just what's in front of him.
Exactly, sometimes "contingency" plans need to be dusted off. I believe that RG, LJ and the Angel were hard pressed to continue their father's wishes.
Plus the Space Wolves who Malcador sent to spy on Guiliman for the express purpose of making sure he didn't do anything treasonous were entirely okay with this plan, so it seems like everyone involved thought setting up a new imperium was perfectly reasonable at the time (they thought Big E was dead and had no way to confirm if this was true or not)
@@AzrealMaximus agree completely. So many people wanna make it sound like he was attempting a ku. He was being pragmatic in the face of a complete breakdown of command control with information. And add on top of that, there was no place he could go because of the storm. The moment that they had a chance, all three legions went to Terra with all due speed.
I mean, the Emperor made his own Plan B. And Plan C.
The triumpharate were fighting traitors, stabilising the empire & went to Terra ASAP.
The issue, if you want to call it that, exists in terms of Sanguinius being called "Emperor" given that this is a religious term in 40k.
Think of it as being like Australia getting cut off from the rest of the world and an Australian cardinal declaring himself Pope.
Well, that chap would probably end up in trouble if Australia then reconnected with the rest of the world. Had he said & done the same things but titled himself Cardinal or Senior Cardinal, nobody would have batted an eyelid.
But within religions, titles are usually somewhere between important and sacred.
I'm going to disagree that splitting the Legions was a mistake. During the Great Crusade the Imperium was expanding and conquering. It needed forces that could roll over almost any opponent without excessive losses (as percentage of fighting strength) and in this they worked very well (stand fast the Rangdan and the campaign against Orks that culminated with the Ullanor Triumph). After the Scouring the strategic situation shifted to one of holding ground already secured, small campaigns in hostile territory more as spoiler ops and counter-attacking on a local basis. For this you need smaller forces with smaller logistical footprints to strike quickly over much shorter (strategic) distances. Chapters are better forces for that purpose. I would concede that larger nodal forces would make sense too (say forces 5-10 thousand strong and maybe two or three per Segmentum) but then its the political issue of having very strong forces that can potentially cause another Heresy.
As to the right decision, yes. Guilliman was a better administrator and ultimately that is what is required to run an empire that in the majority is in peacetime. Most Imperial worlds have not actually suffered any kind of conflict other than riots/pirate raids in millennia. A few are in a constant state of war true, but that's why you need hundreds or thousands of peaceful worlds to supply the logistics to feed those war zones. Dorn's ideal peacetime roll would have been visiting the borders and consolidating the defences, or being the inspector of the regional armed forces to ensure their readiness is sufficient. Russ, The Lion and Jagahatai would have been best served as the commanders of large forces either counter-attacking or carrying out the spoiler ops I mentioned. Vulkan (and Ferrus had he lived) would have been best suited for coordinating the Imperium's manufacturing (civilian as well as military) and R&D- such as it is. Corax would have best served as a hunter beyond the Imperial borders similar to how the Carcharodons Astra operate. Sanguinius (had he lived) would best have served as Imperial Regent, partially ceremonial, partially figurehead, and being the prime leader in the event of a REALLY big threat (War of the Beast of the bigger Black Crusades for example).
This. At the time the Codex reforms were beyond necessary.
Horus had turned not only the Legions, but huge swathes of the Imperial and Mechanicum forces against the Emperor.
The scope and scale of the civil war shattered the Imperium's golden age.
We also see the necessity in breaking things apart (including the Navy and Army) in subsequent tussles. The Legions almost had a second mini heresy around the Codex reforms. Huron Blackheart gathered to him a Legion and look what it wrought. Even the ol' Vandire's situation may have gotten much worse, had he had access to even more power (less the Astartes, more military forces he could have co opted to be personally loyal).
It helped keep the Imperium intact for almost 10,000 years.
Did its job rather well.
@@fedupN I'll add another point (you've helped me clarify it in my head so cheers very much): by separating the Navy and the Army, the only forces that had strategic mobility were the Chapters. Thus the Chapters act as a quick reaction force but lack the depth to fight entire wars themselves. But they can tear the heart out of an invasion and ruin the attacker's initiative. Thus giving the Imperium time to mobilise its main forces in the form of the Navy and the Guard. The Chapter then withdraws to regenerate. Not ideal BUT the Imperium's most dangerous enemy is internal civil war and this structure does most to minimise it while allowing a reasonable level of doctrine and infrastructure to neutralise external threats.
Really good points and well thought through. I disagree that they should’ve been split to such small numbers. I believe the founding nine chapters that were loyalist should’ve been left around 20,000 and the successor chapters left around 5000 to 10,000, but your logic‘s sound. Another poster here pointed out that what would’ve happened if Luff Huron, had an entire legion at his disposal? Or the sons of malice? That would’ve been an absolute disaster. Look at the trouble he caused with a slightly inflated chapter. If he had 50,000 space marines, it would’ve been apocalyptic for the Imperium.
@@WilliamDeemer problem with that being in the aftermath of The Heresy and the Scouring, none of the legions had the strength to remain at 20,000 strong and still produce successors except the Ultramarines. Quoting some of the old lore here: "The vast majority of Second Founding Chapters were created from the Ultramarines Legion", "The Apocrypha of Skaros is the oldest known copy of the Codex Astartes. It claims the Ultramarines sired 23 chapters but did not list them". By my interpretation that means by the time the Codex was enacted the strength of the legions was shattered.
From my reading, only the Ultramarines had the logistics and infrastructure for large scale recruitment (The Dark Angels no longer did, and none of the rest had ever had it) and all the Legions prior had used a doctrine of overwhelming military force on campaign resulting in only several dozen to a few hundred fatalities, the remaining casualties being injured but able to be healed and return to the ranks in months. Then after the campaign spend a few weeks regenerating forces before the next operation. Thus the old legions were replacing a few hundred legionaries per year (except the Iron Warriors, but they were noted as having remarkably easy recruitment and implantation requirements so could regenerate mass casualties, though it still took time).
So you have the situation where the only legion that COULD have formed a significantly over-strength chapter was commanded by the bloke ordering all the others to split down. Massive political crisis brewing right there. Also the reason Guiliman reduced the realm of Ultramar quite significantly. At the time I believe all of that was the right decision. But hey. Times change. These days I'd suggest a few dozen nodal forces of around 10,000 (plus a few million Guard, appropriate Naval and transport assets etc.) to react to hostile incursions that a chapter and the local PDF and Guard forces can't handle.
@@daveharrison4697 That’s the kind of analysis you cannot argue with at all. Well researched and eloquently stated. I really do like your thoughts about what to do in the current situation as well with a QRF. Thanks for Magnificent answer. Appreciate you taking the time to lay that out for me.
I think the Chapter System as originally envisioned by Guilliman was perfectly fine and arguably a net positive over the Legions
Imagine of Huron Blackheart had a whole Legion at his command. Imagine if the Astartes Praeces were a Legion with the Sons of Malice at the head. Imagine how many relatively minor conflicts would have been **much more major** if the offending Astartes had been one of the Legions.
Brilliant points
The counter to this is that Huron only really fell because he wasn’t being supported enough by the Administratum, so he began legion building, which is what got him in trouble
Had he already had a legion, none of that would’ve happened
Guilliman himself believes the Codex Astartes was a well intentioned mistake, specifically in limiting chapters to 1000 marines
This is likely because the Legiones Astartes were designed to work in much larger numbers than they do in chapters, and by limiting them so much, it dramatically increased the burden the rest of humanity had to hold, which is essentially what led to the fall of Cadia
Humanity shouldered the Legions burden for 10,000 years before internal corruption and a lack of superhuman support ultimately, inevitably, caught up to them
I think the chapters were a good idea barring GW's number scaling problem. The imperium at the end of the heresy and scouring was just as broken as Terra. If it was to endure to even attempt to rebuild RG switched it from an animal with a few teeth and claws and plates, to a sponge. Filled with endless crystal teeth to support and deter predators from inside and out. It is designed for attrition, to keep problems small scale and slow threats while prosperous sectors could grow and then be leveraged against problems. If RG hadn't got stabbed I think the Imperium would have been fine given 1000 years. Even without him his organization ensured the Imperium weathered the storm for 10k.
Disagree on chapter strength. RG could've culled the legions to Demi-Legions of 5-10k. My Primarch came back from Istavann 5 with 8kish, out of 80k. Dorn culled his legion by blood and still had 3kish after Perturabo. Seeing the fighting since 30k to now, more robust SM units were needed, especially since the traitor legions left with large numbers into the warp.
RG not dying is bad news for chaos, tau, and others
An Imperium with a leader that is as skilled as the Emperor in administration
guilliman plan had his merit
mainly reducing risk of another total civil war by fracturing the legions and also creating rapid responce task force (the chapters) that were able to indipendetly spread over much more territory and situations
after the end of the crusade the focus was not conquest but consolidation
a legion was ideal as attacking force not as a garrison/rapid response one
problem and really a huge one
the chapters are not able to face major invasions
the beast was nearly able to destroy terra
the tyraninds have been able to nearly wiping out the ultramarine homeworld and their major hive fleet especially leviathan are still major active problems (with more incoming as hinted in multiple places by the lore)
the black crusade have constantly demonstrated their ability to overcome the imperium because the traitor come out in legion sized astartes forces that a chapter is not able to confront directly
there multiple example in the lore of chapters reuniting as legions
like the last wall protocol against the beast of the imperial fists
the defence of baal by the blood angel against leviathan
hell even guilliman himself create a new legion size force for the indomitus crusade with the unnombered sons of the primaris to have a fighting chance against the cicatrix maledictum situation
the chapters were a good plan for the time they where created
in the current era of the imperium they are extremely insufficient given the fact that the imperium face multiple existential treaths by multiple forces (ghazkull waaagh, abbadon crusade, cicatrix maledictum dividing the imperium in half and spitting not stop deamons in the materium, tyranind incoming and resurfacing necron worlds)
a reform is essential
there is against a need for legion sized imperial forces
or at the very least if the legion is too much multiple demilegion forces that can if the situation demand conglomarate temporaly under aunified command
I totally agree with what you say. To go from over 100,000 down to 1000? That’s just ridiculous. I would’ve thought they would’ve gone from the original size down to perhaps 20,000 for the original chapters and then 10,000 for the successor chapters. And Gilman is even going on to say that he did not expect his Kodak’s to become like a holy book and treated so inflexibly. That’s why he has had no issues with the way the space wolves or the black Templars operate. He’s very pragmatic like a good leader should be.
@@AzrealMaximus I have to agree that dropping them down to 1000 was a little bit silly. I would’ve dropped them down to 20,000 for the founding chapters, and maybe 10,000 for successor chapters. You make some really good points, appreciate you sharing
I can see why Gullimen is more effective. He reminds me of Ieyasu Tokugawa for a bit, a slow and steady but effective one.
Plus he put a lot in logistics that maintain the crusade effort
Dorn's primary problem is that he is probably the least flexible of all the Primarchs with the possible exception of Pert. Guilliman, while not exactly a radical, is far more willing to change if something isn't working. Like when he did all those battle simulations against Corax; Corax was big on using Moritats and irregulars while Guilliman though the whole concept was stupid. But after Corax won their first three rounds, Guilliman decided that he was in fact being the stupid one and altered his tactics. He beat Corax in every simulation afterwards. The same is true for his politics. When Guilliman's father Konor died for instance, it was due to betrayal from people in his Senate who disliked his reforms. So when Guilliman came back and canned the High Lords who he knew were going to be a problem, he set things up so that the Hexarchy Crisis would occur and then immediately be resolved, all because something like that had already happened to him.
All very good and solid points. Most of which I had not considered. Well thought through. Appreciate the input, you definitely know your stuff
The whole think about Dorn is, that he isn't static in his Strategy our tactics, just read the Siege of terra books.
@@fullgreys0n738 I will do that, but I will actually have to listen to them. I have a lot of travel time so I do the audiobooks. If I may ask, which ones do you recommend I begin with? Sorry for the questions. THanks for your help.
I think come the book covering it it'll be more Dorn's decision honestly. In recent years they've been writing Gulliman as more reluctant and actively trying to curb his arrogance. While you see it in Dark Imperium, it's most obvious in his last big book Ruinstorm. He intentionally waits to hear from Sanguinius and the Lion, hesitates, tries to understand what he doesn't comprehend and follow the lead where it seems helpful.
Conversely, Dorn has been shown to be vocal enough in the Crusade to directly criticize Ferrus, Perturabo, Corax, Curse and the Siege is just this harrowing experience that's got him to the end of his rope. I doubt he would want to see that damn planet ever again when the battle ends. Rather than the stereotype that Guilliman was swanning around, I think more likely is he was working on administration frantically to not feel bad for being too late and knowing he's best at writing, and Dorn is likewise desperate to atone by fighting honestly and not giving orders from a building, never be stuck commanding others like his brothers(one dying/almost dying at Lion's Gate and one dying on the Vengeful Spirit) and risking them dying ever again.
I think any Primarch that returns will be very different than they were in the Crusade. Like Guilliman, they woul loose a lot of that arrogance. But yes he was starting down that path far earlier.
Guilliman is the nerdy kid that everyone wants for their group assignment bc they do most of the work
I think g man was right for the job since he’s the perfect mix of an idealist and politician with a clear aptitude for logistics
Dorn is not exactly charismatic or flexible. I would say Guilliman is more aware of the political and logistical challenges of the job. Dorn is very talented, but the greatest challenge the Imperium has is its a huge, resource rich, logistical nightmare. The ideal would be Guilliman to enhance the whole and Dorn reinforced the weakest links.
Looking more deeply into Dorn's utter lack of charisma, Rogal Dorn is not someone that would be well liked by the general population. He's aloof, cold and unfriendly. An only slightly more humanized version of his close brother, Perturabo. Roboute Guilliman is very Human. He actually cares about people, and it shows, very clearly. As for governance, a government under Dorn would be very much grim dark. Under Guilliman, there is some light, at the end of the tunnel. Let's not forget his conversation with Dante:
“He lifted his hand up to encompass three worlds. ‘These planets were hells. For generations we have recruited the strong over the weak, in the belief it makes our warriors better. I do not think this is so. Cruel men, make cruel warriors, make cruel lords. We need to be better. We need to rise over the need for violence and recognise other human qualities in our recruits. Your Chapter has ever understood this. If we do not, then we will fall prey to our worst excesses, the kind of thing that that represents.’ He pointed at Ka’Bandha’s name. ‘It has long been in your capability to transform these worlds. Baal Primus is dead, but you need not let your remaining people suffer unnecessarily. Will they fight any better for dwelling on a world that kills them? By sacrificing their children to the Emperor’s service, they have earned a better life. Once you have torn that blasphemy down, raise up the population of Baal Secundus. Teach them what we are fighting for. A line must be drawn between what is good and what is evil, for if the Great Enemy comes with offers of power to a wretch, what reason does he have to refuse hell if he dwells in it already?”
Guilliman was a great general, and master of one of the greatest military forces (hence, Horus being far less than enthusiastic at the thought of the Ultramarines dropping out of the Warp over everyone's heads, during the Siege of Terra), but he was also a great governor, and, unlike the Corpse Emperor, he didn't want to build an interstellar empire on the backs of the helpless, lubricated with their blood and tears, producing nothing but weapons and suffering.
I presume you meant Dorn reinforcing the weak links, eh?
@@Hanfgurkenhasser No.
@@Hanfgurkenhasser No, because the Imperium is THE logistical nightmare, even from primarchs, its just that vast. There are tons of weak links, Guilliman would build it up into something better, but Dorn would need to reinforce the parts that would cause crippling damage if lost.
There is a quote from Frederick The Great that summarizes it well: "Little minds try to defend everything at once, but sensible people look at the main point only;
They parry the worst blows and stand a little hurt if thereby they avoid a greater one.
If you try to hold everything, you hold nothing"
In its current state, its impossible to fortify the entire Imperium all the time, so first guarantee you secured the essentials, so it survives long enough to be upgraded to the next level.
@@KaiserAfini I just found the last sentence of your og comment confusing.
"The ideal would be Guilliman to enhance the whole and Guilliman reinforced the weakest links."
That's what I meant, I think you wanted the 2nd Guilliman to be Dorn or am I missing something completely obvious? :D
The fact that Guillaman was the best lawmaker and administrator is what makes him rival Dorn as my favourite Primarch. A rare reason for a rare choice of favourite Primarch lol
**just kidding** So, basically, you have a fancy for a dramatized council clerk or alternatively a guy who regularly dresses in his personal S/M outfit (pain glove) ???
Nah, I prefer either the gentleman who owns the largest beer hall in the galaxy or the melancholic, nerdy goth guy who looks like he just on his way to a Sisters of Mercy concert. 😁
I think after the heresy and the iron cage debacle, if Dorn returns he will be a much more tempered and dangerous, than many of his brothers. While Perturbo got a power up via the ruinous powers, Dorn gets the power up through introspection and knowing himself.
Of course Dorn knows who he is he is Rogal Dorn
@@ryansauchuk7290
“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.”
Arguably Dorn already has, following the siege of Terra Dorn was a wreck, he blamed himself for failing to defend Terra, for not being there to save Sanginius and the Emperor, his carrying of the pain and guilt turned to anger as he attempted to atone in death during tbe Iron Cage. When he left it, Dorn stopped his hostility with Guilliman and split his legions and tried to fix what he saw as his failures. He left the Iron Cage with a clearer vision, less anger, less ego, ironically since the Iron Cage was designed to break him, he left mentally stronger than he went in.
Rho I love listening to you talk about lore. You really do my favorite sci-if universe the justice and you are definitely one of my favorite creators. You helped a loyal subscriber through some tuff times, and I’ll remain so till the end times lol. Just some love from a supporter from across the pond. Keep up the great work good sir and thanks thank you.
Nice fresh topic for video. Well done, Wolf Lord. Also, Dorn is maybe my favorite loyalist Primarch. I wish I there was some hope, however small, from GW that one day Dorn might return. But I do not think anyone over the age of 12 will live long enough to see a return of Dorn, if it were to happen.
I have a theory it maybe something along the lines of Dorn being to exhausted/broken from the whole ordeal to carry the title any longer and looks to guilliman to take over, guilliman has always mentioned how he never wants to be centre of attention eg: when horus was picked as Warmaster he agreed, he didn't become jealous. So I see Dorn looking to guilliman for aid and to take the title so Dorn can focus on what plagues his mind: vengeance and redemption
As an extra: Guilleman was the only Primarch with a non-devastated Legion...
I mean half of the ultramarines were annihilated
@@Raditz102 but compared to the others?
@@Raditz102 L statement. The Ultramarines are the largest loyalist legion by a mile.
Also, there's the not insignificant matter of Rogal *yeeting a large portion of his forces into the Irom Cage* because he let his thirst for vengeance cloud his most basic tactical judgement. Guilliman - as far as I'm aware - has never let his hatred for the Word Bearers (or, more recently, the Nurgle-worshipping Deathguard) lead to a fumble _that_ catastrophic.
"Half" of a large number (i.e. Ultramarines) is still a lot larger than a smaller proportion of an already smaller number of Imperial Fists.
@@Raditz102 now that I have time I looked it up and the Smurfs created 16 Successors at the 2nd Founding, the next closest is the Blood Angels/Imperial Fists with 5 Successors a piece, so Guilliman had at least a little over 3x as many Space Marines at his disposal compared to the next closest Legions
Unfortunately, not an Adeptus Astartes but an Adeptus Administratum legion: armored in finest parchments, fighting in close combat with neat quills and trying to grind the opposition down with perfectly executed regulation drills and occasional announcements of pompous edicts! 😁
I'd initially assume that Dorn was injured in the final battles and also emotionally ruined by his 'failure.'
Plus, Guilliman is the man in charge of the largest and most capable force in the field at the time and allowing Dorn, the Fists and the Blood Angels to stand sown for a minute is only fair.
Also, Dorn was a defender, which is what Terra needed during the Heresy, but Guilliman is a builder and rebellion quasher, which is what the mission of the Scouring is.
Dorn is the builder guilliman the diplomat .
I think being able to competently run an Imperium made of 1 million worlds is a far greater ability than being the best fighter. My greatest son is a pretty accurate description! However I would much rather see Rogal Dorn return instead of the Lion, the Imperium would benefit the most from the Guilliman-Dorn duo.
I agree except I would prefer the Lion to return because I think there would be more friction with him and the G-man. Better drama then G-man/Dorn. Don't make it too easy on the universe!
@@cheeseburger12 you sound like drama loving Kardashian bruh why do you want to make it worse then it already is?
@@antonioj700 it's too easy for the G-man right now. He's kicking ass. I want more of the humanity is on the edge of extinction feel.
@@cheeseburger12 yet again I am confused with you people, humanity is already just one step away from total annihilation and you want it to see it happen? Necrons, tau, demons, f*cking eldar gods popping up and ofc bloody spacebugs. Tell me if I missed anything bcs the last book I read was a complete and utter destruction of half a system by that asshole the Deciver.
@@cheeseburger12 true, and I want the Tyranids to be calling themselves “Neo-Tyranids” while everyone else called them the “New Devourer” like in the shape of the nightmare that is to come.
Dont forget that Guilliman also gave instructions for the creation of the Primaris, maby the Emperor forsaw that, and planed for the greater game, for when Reboute would return he would need Legion's to reestablish the status que, and i dont think most of the other Primarchs would have the forsight to plan that long ahead or even dare to tamper with the Astartes geenseed, or seeing it as heresy.
Corax would probably be fine with it but I don't know about the others.
Guilliman was the best choice out of the options left for sure. All of the primarchs were affected by the Emperor's fall and the heresy. Russ and the Lion were both a bit of a mess like Dorn and I really can't see Corax, Vulkan or Jaghatai even wanting the position. Sanguinius and Ferrus dead by that point so that's not really an option. Most of them end up disappearing quick too. I think even the codex was a good idea at the time at least especially since I don't know if a full legion can be trusted to anyone other than their primarch(aside from exceptions like Dante, Grimnar and Calgar). Yes I know a primarch can cause the legion to turn but they are also really good at keeping them in line too.
I agree, Dorn though he's one of the most stone faced of his brothers, even the most emotionless person will have their breaking point. The weight of failing his loyal Brothers, their father, the Imperium and ultimately humanity could've broken Dorn's calm façade. Though that's not to say Roboute wouldn't have felt failure on his end, having arrived too late to participate in defending the Throne world, with the possibility of being accused of cowardice from his remaining Brothers and their sons.
The problem with Dorn is he is too rigid, so he is tough to break, but when he breaks he breaks hard. Guiliman is more flexible and can recover from stress better.
No one could have done a better job rebuilding the imperium than guilliman
Master of defence or a Master of logistics? Well, you arent being directly assaulted anymore. That, and gulliman did just pull dorn out of the iron warriors trap alive, so...
Big E stuck on the toilet.. Holding back the tides of Chaos with an expression of agony gets an entirely new meaning now...
The insight of how Dorn feels in the Saturnine novel is so good… im a fan of him cuz of that book.
And when it comes to the strongest legion.. who else but the 1st! For the lion for the emprah!
Go to Baldermort's lore channel, 3 episodes called the longest second for Dorn. Epic audio.
Gulliman understands the politics and as much as people may not like it that is skill needed to rebuild the Imperium.
Out of the surviving 5 active loyalist primarchs I think only really Guilliman and Dorn had the skills to keep the Imperium from collapsing and out of them Dorn was too plagued with guilt to do the job, so that really only left Guilliman capable of the feat it also helped that he also had the backing of the largest legion and a power base in Ultramar that was relatively untouched by the heresy.
And yes I think breaking the legions down was the correct choice not so much because of the threat of rebellion but because the needs of man kind had changed, the damage the heresy had caused pretty much destroyed the Imperiums ability to conduct expansion on a large scale and the the legions where designed to be a big unwieldy sledge hammer ment for conquest what the Imperium needed after the Heresy was a rapid reaction defence force to hold it togethor.
I'll stick to what Ulvurul Heoroth in Prospero Burns describes as each of the surviving loyalist Primarch's Wyrds:
One to be the heir to the Emperor's Throne: Guilliman
One to fortify the defences of the Imperium: Dorn
I don't think creation of Codex Astartes was a mistake. With a body as large as the Imperium decentralisation of power is nessesery. Just look how well centralisation work for Administratum...
I was always took it that Rogal Dorn was just left mentally shattered and didn't want the job nor was in the best place to do it.
I think at that point Guilliman was the best option, the next best would be Dorn, but at that point Dorn the warrior was spent from all the fighting/sacrifice and Rogal the man was dead.
I think its less that Dorn broke, but rather it was guilt. He felt like he failed, and thus that he couldn't trust himself with the job anymore.
Dorn loses control after the Heresy. Hes had to have so much controlled during the siege. With his grief after the Emperor being interred in the Throne, he loses himself in the pursuit of vengeance.
This was a very good analysis of the lore. Thank you.
Dorn: do you need a HAND brother?
Probably because Dorn had a mental breakdown, and Guilliman had a much larger army....
I think there of the many contrasts between the two the biggest is that Guilliman is an emperor in his own right. By that I mean that he is deeply attached to his people and ruling the the utmost of his capabilities to bring a better life for them. I think the reason Dorn was given the reigns for the siege is that he was without question the strongest defender. He would build walls and guard them if it meant spending every piece of blood and gristle he had to maintain the Emperor’s life. Guilliman, while fighting valiantly to the bitter end would be broken by the utter ceaseless sacrifice that would have been necessary to hold the palace. It’s also ironic because Dorn also finally experienced the utter horror of Perturabo’s normal existence and probably has more in common with his brother than he ever thought possible.
Guillman was late because of the storms, not because of imperium secundus -_-" the three legions simply COULDNT leave sooner.
i believe Dorn was something beyond furious
Man... I hope Valrak sees this.....✊
Dorn is ostensibly an defensive force commander. Where as Gulliman is a more all rounder. He also commanded by far the largest loyalist legion remaining commanded by The Emperor
I think there's really 2 reasons (parts?) to the answer. The first being that with a majority of the traitors fleeing into the eye of Terror and Down himself on fairly shaky ground when it comes to his understanding of all things warp related, I believe Rogal simply had more confidence in Roboute's abilities to deal with any situation that may spring up. The 2nd part of the answer being more of an emotional component, (and in line with your opinion Rho) as after the events on the Venegeful Spirit, and Dorn's absence during them, he simply couldn't bring himself to leave his father at (at least for a time) deciding instead to stay at the Palace on Terra and safeguard the Emperor.
I don't buy that Dorn "broke". I do believe that, like his son Lysander, he would not believe himself worthy considering the outcome of the Solar War.
Dorn trusts Roboute, even if they may disagree, Rogal does not think Guilliman will fail, but would pursue things his own way.
Dorn was needed to rebuild the Terra and the palace, if he would tolerate doing it.
He said that he wanted to get out and fight during Saturnine. We know that eventually he would fall doing just that.
Guilliman was the right choice; enterprising, systematic, farsighted, and not beaten down by the Verdun of the Siege of Terra.
If Dorn came back and were Lord Commander but Guilliman remained Imperial Regent that would be the best combination imo!
Guilliman is the better peacetime leader, no doubt. In a major war, you would want Dorn or The Lion in charge. To break it down a step further, you'd want The Lion on offense and Dorn on defense. Imagine all 3 could rule the Imperium, in a Triumvirate if you will, each focusing on the role they excel at...
In regard to the index astaries and the breaking up of the legions, both Dorn and papa smurf were right. It's just Gman was right after the heresy, Dorn was right 10,000 years later.
Almost like different times require different strategies.
@@SacredGumby change from entrenched dogma…you are new to the imperium, right.
"sounds like he is going to the bathroom."
Hurry it up corpse-Emperor! I don't have all day!
Didnt Guilliman stick around post Heresy to get shit put back together while Dorn Leeroyed Jenkinsed after the traitors?
I feel that is a pretty valid reason to give him the job.
Pretty much lol.
Absolutely wrong interpretation...
Because dorn to put is simply had the social skills of a block of granite
He was uncomfortable uncompromising honest to a fault and incapable of understanding social interaction
He was so direct and honest in his answers and way of conduct himself that he has a good share of responsibility in turning traitors perturabo(that he declared was unable to breach one of dorn fortress. Keep in mind dorn believed that to be true but he was unable to understand that in that way he was pissing of one of his brothers) and kurze( by berating him over his visions told in confidence to fulgrim and that fulgrim discussed with dorn to decide how to deal the situation. Dorn marched directly o kurze and as any sensible man in front of a mentally troubled person he accused and verbally assault him causing kurze to 1) losing trust in fulgrim2) to be forced in an angle under scrutiny rather than be helped by his brothers 3) attacking dorn to escape)
Note that this was before the heresy
After the emperor/Horus kerfuflle shit hit the proverbial fan and for e was totally consumed by his desire of revenge over traitors especially perturabo
To be considered also that during the heresy dorn was the first primarch to be warned (by garro) of Horus (and mortarion fulgrim and angron too) rebellion
He was put in charge of the loyalist side because the emperor was a little busy with the imperial webway clusterfuck caused by magnus
In the end this strategic genius confronted with a situation of unclear alliance decided to launch 3 sure loyalist legions in a meat grinder
Because
1)the night lords were already borderline renegades and it was only a matter of time before they would be censured for their excess
Also dorn was literally attacked by kurze before all of that
Why he trusted an unstable madman is anyone guess
2) the iron warriors had already destroyed their homeplanet and their primarch was in a bitter feud with dorn
3) the alpha legion is so secretive that anyone trusting them in any capacity is a madman by definition
4) the words bearers where condemned by the emperor himself as religious fanatics and where ashamed in front of the entire imperium
Their primarch was the very first candidate for rebellion out of resentment and disillusion every sane person would have suspect immediately
Dorn was so direct and unable to understand basic human nature that he failed to detect and suspect about 4 of his brothers and condemned 3 legion to be practically destroyed with very few survivors
A man like that is better to stay away from central conmand
7:15 Basically, Guilliman is a Starcraft player. =D
Thinking beyond the battle or campaign makes him the best general,
Going to put this out there.....
Amongst the primarchs there is often a rule of 2 for what each primarch was intended for post crusade. But I feel its clear that Roboute was always intended as the regent in the emperor's absence
Roboute Guilliman had one of the best military records. Maybe 2nd to Johnson. As well as all the work he did to leave territories in good shape. Not overly dissimilar too Lorgar. He did better than Lorgar did in a fraction of the time. While still being a top 3 commander in overall conquest. Roboute often times gets heavily overlooked just because he was not flashy or a self absorbed idiot. Lord commander isn't just about the military capability during a fight. It's also the bureaucracy, politics, and administrative duties. Roboute was the better overall at the whole package.
Of course he's the best choice, he's the only one that displays a talent for administration which is what would be needed after the Heresy warfare. Yeah you have to rebuild, but you need to do it with a good plan.
The best offense is a good defense
But Rho you need to cover every fact about Magnus the Red's glorious golden nipple horns
Every facet even.
Oh man! Excited for this chapter war!!! Let's get it!
Guilliman is a better Regent as he is a great diplomat. However Lion should have been the wasmaster to attack everyone if he didn't go missing as he was hands down the best tactical master of all the Primarch's as shown by his record
The Seige of Terra books have given me a new level of respect for Rogal Dorn. He's one of the best Primarchs to me...but I'm still not painting yellow.
Since the Emp and Sanny were two Psykers and he witnessed their death / near death I am surprised Dorn going off on one isn’t also explained by a Psychic backlash akin to what the BA’s still experience.
Abolishing the legions was just formalizing what was going to happen regardless. I'm not sure why people act like the situation after the heresy was somehow the same as before it. Force structures need to adapt to political and operational realties and the reality post heresy wasn't anything like the great crusade.
The legions had some advantages in terms of being able to apply highly concentrated force, which is useful for offensive operations across a limited front or for rapidly overwhelming stubborn strongpoints (worlds), although even here you can debate the advantages. Overly large single formations tend to become unwieldly and impossible to control effectively anyway. The legions were really already at that point. This can easily be seen in how their nominal leaders often had little real idea what was going on within various parts of them as seen by the festering of rebellion and taboo culture within many of them. Even during the crusade the legions were almost always sub-divided and engaged multiple independent operations anyway and many of them had semi or effectively permanent sub-units with distinct cultures and operational roles.
Whatever virtues they might have had though effectively evaporated after the heresy. The Imperium now at least nominally controlled vast swathes of space, but it had to actually hold that space. The threat when this debate occurred was not really any monolithic death blow, but from a thousand cuts. The strongest unit in the universe is absolutely useless if it’s not where it’s needed. To cover the now vast imperium with marine support across all the places that needed it was going to call for many moderately sized formations capable of independent operation, not a single monolithic sledgehammer.
It was purely a question of administrative arrangement; one could have perhaps accomplished this by forming scores of effectively permanent ‘task forces’ under the nominal umbrella of the parent legion, but given the realities of travel and interstellar communication within 40k this would be a symbolic gesture at most. Once afield in the Imperium there would be effectively no way to exert even a pretense of centralized command or control over the task forces. Even basing them in any central location would be foolish and counterproductive; they would need to be dispersed into separate garrisons to be positioned such that they could have any real chance to respond in time to local threats.
Is all of this sounding kind of familiar?
And it isn’t like this administrative sub-division somehow prevents the massing of larger formations if the situation calls for it. We have multiple examples in canon where uniquely concentrated and singular threats resulted in concentrations of tens of thousands of marines in a war zone. These assembled forces might be marginally less capable of cohesive action then an old legion, but then again if they legions had been segmented up administratively into dozens or hundreds of task forces that often operated away from each other for decades or centuries at a time, would they do much better?
All I see in the breaking up of the Legions was formalizing what was going to occur regardless, with the added bonus of the formalized decentralization limiting the ability of any one charismatic and corrupted leader to do damage. Which given the tons of examples we have down through canon of large segments of or even entire chapters going rouge (to say nothing of the Heresy itself)we can judge to hardly be an ideal concern. You can maybe debate the exact size, I do think he made them somewhat too small in terms of being able to absorb casualties and continue to operate effectively (I would have gone with a roughly brigade sized force), but I can see how the heresy experience might prompt an over correction in terms of paranoia about concentrating too many marines under one leader.
Regardless Legion fanboys that think that keeping them nominally together as some kind of shambolic gesture would've made any difference in how the Imperium developed are delusional.
TLDR Guilliman didn't really do much wrong, his bothers were just stuck up on how things were and refused to see how things were going to BE.
So the nightmarish bureaucractic Imperium that met the returned Guilliman is arguably the result of what he himself laid out. No wonder he was so upset with the Imperium.
Guilliman probably now has a nagging feeling that Dorn's Imperium would probably have stood the test of time, where his seemingly degraded without him there.
The templars are the imperiums greatest hope. A potentially full legion strength is absolutely unstoppable
So... If Guilliman is regent or whatever does that make Russ Warmaster? 🤔🤔🤔
What's the saying? Boys study strategy, Men study logistics.
Cus Dorn failed, so palace didnt hold, emperor had to take a risk a gamble to kill horus and ended up dead on the throne.
Dorn failed.
PTSD that’s why.
Dorn was no longer fit to command the imperium. Is it any wonder after doing what he had to do and seeing the carnage onboard the Vengeful Spirit
my main assumption is the fact that Rogal can rebuild the imperium's defenses and buildings but he is lacking in many other areas needed to rebuild after a civil war.
He would universally suck at rebuilding faith in the structure of the politics, emperor, as well as reintegrating many non-afflicted areas who may have been loyal to the traitors who were under the impression that the emperor had really done something wrong.
Guiliman is the Emperor’s persona of pragmatism, administration and statesmanship.
Who did the cover art 🎨
Because blue is easier to paint than yellow.
Guiliman despite his detractors undoubtedly the best choice. The Emperor gave him the skills necessary to oversee the governing of the Imperium. It was his special gift from the beginning as evidenced with what he did in the 500 worlds. Of course he’s not perfect but he exhibits the political savvy, flexibility and ability to work with the realities of the situation that most Primark‘s just cannot. And this is not in anyway hey insult or condemnation of Dorn. I think the Lion , would be absolutely the best military commander for the Imperium‘s Armed Forces. Or maybe even the Inquisition? Very simply it was his gift, what he was born to do.
Dorn is a builder and a maintainer. He isn't as taltented at the day to day administration as Guilliman is, doesnt mean he is bad but its not his forte or passion. He would be better at physically rebuilding it and defending it it rather than the day to running of it. Guilliman however thrives in that. If anything they would be partners bringing out the best of eachother.
Dorn simply has more personal shit to deal with.
How?
Guilliman has a _very_ personal feud with Lorgar and a more recent rivalry with Mortarion, yet he didn't tell his people to run into a combat situation that was blatantly sketchy like Rogal did.
wish on the tabletop, guilliman's true talents would be something that we could use
Dorn was a genius at defense and engineering, but Guilliman is a genius at the basic, boring bs that keeps empires going. Logistics and supply.
Crafting stuff and being a great warrior is all well and good but you'd think more of the primarchs would be superior administrators considering how big the Imperium is.
But I guess Paperhammer isn't as catchy as Warhammer 😀
I suspect Dorn gets Super depressed after events of the siege and him wanting to die is why he throw himself into iron cage to kill Perturabo. Guilliman’s and ultramarines intervening is the turning point.
If the legions had not been broken up, who would have led them after the Primarchs left? And would they have been up to the task?
Rogal is probably too busy punishing himself in pain glove to care... for the moment
He should have left dorns legion intact. Moved him to a "fortress imperial" roll building worlds to survive the return of the traitors or any other threat. Exactly as they were built for...
Response to the thumbnail:
No.
Response after the vid:
No.
"I dont like paperwork" - Rogal Dorn probably
I really enjoyed that.
Doesn't the opening guy have his iconography wrong?
I'll say this I don't blame him for taking over, humanity is in total ruin, the barbaric nature of the 41st is sickening, especially after seeing how people are treated.
Timestamps are nice. You should use them.
It's the difference between winning a war and winning a peace.
Dorn didn't take over the imperium because he felt the heresy, The Emperor's internment on the throne, The failed webway project, and the declining state of the imperium were all his fault. He felt he doesn't deserve to run the imperium. If it wasn't for his severe depression he wouldn't even follow the splitting of the legions into chapters. He thought that the splitting of the legion was a fitting punishment for him. Dorn was an emotional wreck after the heresy.
Dorn needs a hug
@@MrFredstt Vulcan will oblige
Is the answer because he's an Ultramarine and therefore the most advertised?
I think Guilliman laments the loss of the legions since in the current time they would've been more effective than they were 10k years ago when Guilliman broke them
I think Dorn considered himself the best siege master, but Guilliman was the better warfighter, he was king of logistics, which in almost every war ever is the deciding factor in who wins and who loses
Dorn was better at winning individual battles, but Guilliman was better at winning wars
Which is why Dorn was perfect for commander in the actual siege battles, but Guilliman would ultimately be better at managing the wars against chaos Post Heresy
Fulgrim was Roubutes mirror. Not Dorn or Perty. As well as being his superior. If not for his fall we'd see fulgrim taking the lead where we see papa smurf instead
Dorn went after Perturabo for revenge and had his backside handed to him on a plate.
Gulliman had to go and save him.
The losses his legion suffered meant he wasn't fit to be the Lord Commander.
Gulliman was the obvious choice.
Imperial fists probably just didnt have the numbers after the seige , i expect gulliman turned up saved the day last minute and had 100,000 + marines and probably millions of imperial army/navy .. just made sense regardless of primarchs . Occams razor .
I think its going to be a lot darker. I think the Emperor will say something like "everything is going as planned" and Dorn will realize the Primarchs were just disposable stepping stones to his ascension to Godhood, and even his beloved Horus was just a tool in his plan. And Dorn will be disheartened and suicidal. Part of the Iron Cage will be Dorn trying to die in battle, hoping to bring down Pertuabo, because he doesn't want to live as a son of the Emperor anymore.
And his last act as he lay dying on the Sword of Sacrilege will be to smile, because he's finally at peace. He can finally rest.
Great idea, but I don't think Dorn is going to be granted the merciful release of death. He's still alive somewhere, and quite possibly wishing he wasn't.