Aero frame with light wheels or light frame with aero wheels?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 6 фев 2025
- Check out the Masterclass course: www.norcal-cyc... (scholarships are available)
Have footage to share? Easy 5 min uploader here: forms.gle/GqUf...
20% off Stages Powermeters + accessories, USE CODE "NCC20" at checkout.
stagescycling....
Stay updated with weekly bike racing commentary, tips, and strategy by subscribing:
bit.ly/2wUTrJd
My Strava:
/ strava
Performance Bike helps support this channel:
performancebike.com
Instagram:
/ norcal.cycling
Send Coaching and Collaboration related questions to:
jeff@norcal-cycling.com 
Спорт
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
i just wanna let you jeff know that we recognize the conscious effort you've put to up the production quality. good job.
Hehehe I've been racing the Soloist with the Hyper D67 for a year now, glad that this confirms that my set-up is fast😈
I am not terribly surprised by these results. This set of tests seems to confirm that once you get to a certain level of bike, the performance differences between brands is negligible. This is contrary to what all of the marketing-hype would want us to believe, however, it seems to hold true. For the average avid rider (which I am), I think that the best choice is the bike that fits 1) your body and riding dimensions and 2) the type of riding you want to do is always the best choice.
I would agree. For something as major as a frame, a big determiner of the final purchase would be warranty and support (hopefully local support). That would likely keep me away from a direct-purchase Asian frame at this point.@@W.C.
Would love to see a soloist vs S5 with the current test format!
only if cervelo wants to send me an S5 😅
@@NorCalCycling soloist is already a great comparison, from the price perspective
Is the soloist more comfortable to ride than the winspace..?
On long rides?
The fact you have to purchase a specific group when you buy an off the rack bike is why I went to a custom built frame. I get the exact frame fit and the exact spec'd components for less than an off the rack production bike. Just had my second bike built up for thousands less and couldn't be happier
Finally, someone who did this test right! 88 deep dish carbons on standard format frames compensates for the aero gaps, and even the Tarmac SL8 design points to those same conclusions, but aero bikes are still 🔥
love this kind of content
thanks me too!
That’s great 👌
Cerveló did mentioned the Soloist is more aerodynamic than the R5 and lighter than the S5. The bike does have aerodynamic properties as most bicycle frames these days. Lún wheels are deeper depth than the reserves which deeper wheels are faster for straight line speed on a flat. Great test to see!
@Norcal Cycling through my year’s of cycling / racing since 2001, I can honestly say that a lighter with deep disc wheels has proven to be faster than a complete aero setup. Even now I’ve been rolling with YoeleoSports’s SAT 88 mm wheels on my weekend warrior rides with decent results I’m my group rides.
We want more Jeff!!!!
Love the addition of Will to the channel, seems like a good dude! Any chance we see any Brian or Chris features in the future?
O'boy! I've been waiting for this video to drop! 😍
Don't think I've seen Will too much before! Some love for him and give him some time for a come back in the screen! 😁
I'd like to see a matching comparison with a cheap aluminium or even steel bike and the deep wheels. A cheap bike with non aero wheels versus the same bike with 65-80mm deep aero wheels.
The steel bike thing is something that has me thinking a lot lately: I have a 2021 ritchey road logic that is fairly light and stiff for a steel frame and I wonder how big the aero penalty of a steel frame actually is, given that the tubes are not aero shaped but at the same time really slim. Compared to a aero bike that does have aero shapes but at the same time the tubes are about four times as big as my steel frame
In tour magazine, I noticed they said my stock 2014 Advanced SL TCR was 47 seconds slower than the stock Propel you could buy at that time which leads me to wonder what the difference was if you swapped the wheels. That frame profile really hasn't changed that much compared to most climbing frames nowadays. A new aero handlebar could make up the difference
47 seconds slower on what? 1 hour 2 hour a year?
On a 2014 TCR with rim brakes, your biggest performance barrier is going to be wheels and tires because of said rim brakes.
Love the editing or cinematography or whatever you would call it of the B roll parts.
Crevelo sell a frame by itself as well so you can build a bike the way you would like
1:40 MVDP
Alviso newly paved + smooth tarmac is the best thing ever. Can carry so much speed into the corners
congrats today dude!!! can't wait to post that video, you did a great job on the last lap.
3:30 appears to be from stevens canyon/montebello area!
What I gathered is the Cervelo is the faster frame, and the Hypers are the faster wheels. Makes sense to me. I would assume there is more R&D and aero testing with the Cervelo hence the watts savings. Again, huge assumption. And with the Winspace Hypers having a much deep aero profile they should be faster on the flats. Great video yall!
I would say, there is a bigger difference in the ride and handling between the Winspace vs. Cervelo than aero difference. Would have to ride both extensively to see what you prefer.
All a Winspace is...a reverse engineered aero bike leaving other OE companies to do the R&D and with less mark up aka profit. A common Chinese practice but honestly, the entire industry copies from each other and commonly done in most industries.
The winspace has a gigantic triangular downtube, absolutely horrific for aerodynamics and an ebarrasing failure if you ask me, especially since they seem to be going for a similar design on the agile
Just buy whatever you think looks better, for most 200grams won't make noticeable difference !
Cool video, thx!
Great video. Cam Nicholls had similar results when testing the aero capability of the winspace.
But what if you ran the test a 3rd time with a reserve 44 on the front and D67 on the back?
Thats why i dircetly sold my Bontrage Wheels from my Madone Gen7 and bought the WinSpace Mega
great series. I'm actually surprised t1550 was slower. would love to see an ongoing versus series with other popular bikes.
(Wonder what a Notio or other pitot tube system would reveal in CdA and w/M^2?)
A whole lot more than wind data taken from some random airport that could be miles away. That's for sure.
Jeff, get with Peak Torque and develop a methodology. There are some $500 aero sensors that would add a lot of value to your testing results. More work, yes, but you also get to set yourself apart from the junk science/easily digestible children's television coming out of channels like GCN
Depend on riding purpose & riding style you like.. everyone have their desire in riding bike, for the speed catcher go for aero frame+hypers, for the comfort catcher go for light frame+hypers, you cannot have all advantages in one pack for sure. Despite the option, whatever you pick the settings, the hard thing is consistent.. at the end if you are consistent enough, you'll forget about those setting differences & will focus with increasing physical ability.
Very good test guys. Thanks!!
Please do a similar test with 2 completely different road bikes (Aero vs Non-Aero) and 2 completely different rims (very lightweght shallow vs Aero deep ). And combine with each other.
Let's say Canyon Aeroad, Scott Foil, Trek Madone... vs Canyon Ultimate, Giant TCR, Scott Addict, Factor O2 VAM, Cervelo R5... And rims depth for example 25mm vs 60mm. Ideally climbs, flats and descents.
It seems to be crazy, but we will see differences, where and why. Thank you.
Long story short, it’s lightweight with deep dish and body aero positioning to cut wind drag.
One thing I noticed, the tires are also different, or at least the sidewalls are different; is the model different?
Just wondering what was that computer on the Winspace?
And for the final test, let's cut both frames in half and do a comparison! 😂(Similar to RCA & Hambini.) Thanks in advance.
How much heavier is that Winspace? Interesting that the Soloist is faster as an all-rounder than the aero bike. How much even better would it be on mixed terrain with more climbing?
A bit of a misnomer to call the Soloist a "light frame" when it's so clearly marketed as being the aero younger brother of the S5
Surely six seconds is within the margin of error for this test. I'd say the central determinate should be is dealer support worth $1500 to you in case something goes wrong.
i dont know i just build my new sl8 with parts i wanted. and pretty much all bigger brands offer framesets these days. the package-deals lost their value for me and i would never buy one ever again.
What are some website you would recommend for sourcing parts from the Frame to the wheels???
Soloist is an aero frame. It looks more aero than the Winspace.
Winspace vs. Aethos vs. Soloist with same wheels please!
The Soloist is the all around frame. The S5 is their aero frame.
@@jwfriar it's still an aero frame, just not their most aero frame
@@scotth3354 sure, it is aero, but that’s not how they classify it. The soloist is their all-rounder frame, not their aero frame.
@@jwfriarit’s not as light as the R5, either, but it’s still light, just like it’s not as aero as the S5, but it’s still aero. The point remains, it was silly to compare it to the Winsoace as an example of a lightweight frame vs an aero frame. It wouldn’t surprise me one bit if they tested those two bikes in a wind tunnel and found that the so-called light bike was more aero than the so-called aero bike.
Thanks for the video. I tried to use the Stages coupon code above and it didn't work. Let me know if there is a different code I can use.
Love the video.
You save 1500 USD, but how much do you spend putting the bike together or how much does a bike shop charge for that?
Also, is the Chinese bike less comfortable than other known brands?
thanks! you should check out the review vid, we talk more about that.
Better channel than GCN shills.
I vote for the light bike over the aero one based on the comfort factor. A full aero bike is likely super stiff and less comfortable to ride. Since I'm not a fast enough for the aero advantage to make a difference in my placement in the pack, I vote for the slightly slower light weight bike with aero wheels
How can the Cervelo/Reserve be significantly faster for Will then Winspace/Reserve but for Jeff the opposite? Also I like the conclusion, even though the test shows Cervelo is the fastest, buy the Winspace...because science.
testing shows nothing was significantly faster, so winspace might make more sense if you want to save money in exchange for a DIY approach. cervelo or other if you want to buy it once and have a complete bike
How long stem is it on the winspace bike?
Winspace isnt an OEM bike. Its one of the few from Asia that are UCI certified and have 2.0 tour riders racing on them. The OEM frames are those that look like Pinarellos and Tarmacs for $600. winspace and Elves are legit frames from asia that dont cost both arms and both ,legs
Im worried. Wheres the scott foil?
Don't care what is faster, always the aero wheels. Just because of looks 😅
Different tires though, right. There might be quite differences.
same tires
Is it just me, but 10-15w sounds like a lot. Especially over longer distance
Never mind the bikes, i want duck jersey!
What happened to Elijah? I haven't seen him in a while.
A couple of seconds per short lap sounds like a big difference
Cade media just did a very similar vid, and paid to go to the silver stone wind tunnel, tested two Scotts back to back rather than wheels. A foil and addict. The Aero coach guys only noted a 3-4 watt advantage to the foil at 30k's without a rider ride, worst with a rider on board! In outdoor tests the the foil was a handful in there really windy test conditions slowing Francis down considerably on a decent test and I think shows quite plainly ultimate areo bikes arn't everything, and a balance needs to be found. And I think you can see this in last years tour de dance as well, with many opting for shallower options with much much wider Tyers and skinny frame bikes.
I think what you're starting to see is the importance of vibration losses starting to be thought about at the tour, and the company thats first to get this right will have one of the fastest bikes around.
Those conditions they rode in was pointless to do the test in and they only did 150w on the climb. The wind tunnel test was very interesting though, the 3-4 watt advantage was at 30km/h I believe.
You should start weighing yourselves between tests to account for metabolic, respiratory and sweat losses between efforts. Just top up with fluids for the amount of weight lost before each run.
High aero rims have clear advantages when riding in the slipstream. The upper part of the spokes moves forward at a maximum of twice the travel speed. Since the air resistance increases in the 3rd power, there are clear advantages for aero wheels in the slipstream. The advantage of aero frames is more significantly reduced by the slipstream.
Non aero bike is a bike with round tubes. A Cervelo Soloist IS an aero bike! Pls pls could you perform same test using a real non aero bike?
I really doubt Winspace is doing ANY aero testing probably just making it look aero and that’s it.
It's not aero, and heavy. And I don't find it cheap too.
I believe they do simulation but no wind tunnel
wind resistance change
should do it in the velodrome.
Still... any data is good info
Look at the thumbnail... "why is the bike industry struggling?"... theyre all making the same bike. No wonder the gravel scene is doing bits just now. I guarantee any serious bike company started producing lighter, rim brake (inegrated cabling) versions of these bikes youd see people like me flocking to that brand.
Take a cannondale evo hi mod from 2016, run it up a significant climb against either of these two bikes at the same wattage. Thats interesting.
Haha I'd flock too if I saw a rim version and I have 3 disc bikes that I love.
The Soloist now has a 105 Race trim with Reserve 40/44s and 105 mechanical 12-speed for $4300.... so.... cheaper than your Chinesium frame
105 mechanical vs SRAM red…
Show me where you can buy a Winspace T1550 with SRAM Red for less than $4300 @@yanisve9309
Still waiting for your answer but I know you can't 🙃@@yanisve9309
Which would be better? Aethos or the soloist?
Soloist not even a question
where is the mismatched wheel test? lower profile in the front, deep profile in the rear.
I want to try running that for my disc brake road bike. I'm thinking 40 mm front and 50 mm rear. I don't want to run 50 mm front unless it's a DT Swiss or Swiss Side.
The Soloist tested by Tour Mag, achieved 218watts at their protocol. It's not bad, not good, kinda average result. An SL8 is 10 watts faster, the fastest aero bikes are up to 20 watts. So it means the Winspace is quite slow for an "aero" frame. And we know it's a heavy frame, around 1250gramms, like a gravel bike. There are much better options on the market. Wheels are different story.
The part configuration for the soloist was horrendous, it's basically worthless to compare it directly to other Tour results. Shallow wheels, non-integrated bar, ginormous mechanical disc shifters. All those could easily total up to 10 watts loss.
The Tour editors themselves have said anything in the margin of ~10 watts is literally unrecognizable to any rider, so to me that demonstrates the Soloist is performing at the upper high echelons of aero testing
Actually looked at it again, the 218 w test is with the reference zipp 404s which cut 10 watts off the stock config, so it probably ends up on the slower side of all-round bikes
Homie, if the 404s are the reference wheels then that means every frame is normalized lmao. 404s are also almost 20mm deeper than the Reserve 40/44s. The difference is that I can buy a Soloist 105 Race with Reserves for $4300 and get 99.9% of the way as someone paying $12000 for an SL8. 404s aren't even the fastest wheels in the mid-depth range so there's still room to improve there.
They also tested a Soloist with round bars and round stem, so an integrated handlebar system would easily make up the difference and is a super easy swap compared to something like trying to change out an S5's whole nightmare of a handlebar or the Aeroad's cockpit which is almost literally impossible to find a new one.
I really just shame Tour for choosing a very low-spec alu wheels 105 model for the Soloist. It deserves more credit than its due when you actually apply some higher end components. If they were really fair they'd normalize the groupset and handlebars where possible. @@invisiblescout6335
Comes with round bars and exposed cables too - that hurts it
Sorry to tell you this but with that ginormous triangle downtube the t1500 is a pig of an aero bike
this is the t1550 and maybe you missed it but it tested almost identical to the soloist. watch this video towards the end where we talk about results.
@@NorCalCycling t1550 and t1500 are identical in shape
@@NorCalCycling
The soloist had non integrated bars (I hope they were at least the same width). That's an easy 3+ watt loss above 40 kmh (although I didn't catch you mention the speeds tested at, pretty important in an aero test).
The timed test with watt equalisation is good for climbing tests. For aero tests, holding a constant speed and comparing the watts over the same segment is more reliable.
There is also tons of margin for error in these kinds of poorly controlled environments. If you want to even start approaching an accurate result you should do several tests in each configuration, check for outliers and compare averages.
Your comparison was actually too close. Both bikes have aero elements, both wheelsets feature high profile carbon rims with actual profiles. In a more hilly terrain (gran fondos), my personal question was like you write in your title. Under these conditions, the question gets more relevant. My 2 options were: a) a heavier Madone 9 aero bike combined with an extreme lightweight, but aerodymically non-optimal wheelset: a Mavic Cosmic Ultimate tubular for rim brakes, or b) an old-fashioned but lightweight Cannondale SuperSix Evo bike combined with a state-of-the-art 65mm DT Swiss wheelset. I opted for the latter, kept contact to the best climbers and rolled away from them in the downhill sections. In those course profiles, the 6.8-7.0 kg bike weight combined with an acceptable aerodynamics really helbs making a difference. 500g more weight and I would not have been able to follow the best climbers. 300 g more drag and I would not have pulled aways from them in the descents.
yeah but the Cervelo looks aero. I mean.. look at how deep the headtube is and how the fork integrates withe the downtube. It's sleeker then the winspace, much more refined. A very poor chois of bikes i must say. No surprises here
I did not expect the Winspace to be faster. I believe the Cervelo will be more aero, because it uses actual aero foil shapes. The Winspace does not have real aero tube shapes
The wheels make most of the difference instead of the bike
the frames are identical.
🍿🍿🍿👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿
Confusing comparison, pretty sure the soloist equally as aero, if not more aero, than the 1550. Also, different tyres cmonnnnnnnnn
Same tires
Conclusion…. No difference…. Prices on brand name bikes still have a way to go!!
More drivel
even worse test than gcn, if you are trying to be "scientific" (hint: you will never be) at least try to make the tires the same, the results are pure shite
tires are the same.
This guy is trying so hard to be cool, that it just isn't cool.
Winspace? Enough of the Chinese crap, not all of us are poor or cheap.
If you compared the frames with the same wheels I would be shocked if there was any statistically significant difference.
They did compare the frames with the same wheels, if you didn't notice
@@Shadowboost I wrote it quite badly. What I meant is I doubt the difference they see is meaningful.
@@stuartdryer1352 yeah, it's insignificant. A S5 vs these might be though
There is no statistically significant difference between any of the major aero bikes. All the TOUR magazine tests are n=1 for each bike with
@@n8torious309 I've always suspected that.
I knew it, Winspace is trash. Nothing but an open mould chinese frame.
not sure how you reached that conclusion from this video. but the good news is either are good options IMO. also, winspace isn't open mold