Aero, on a non windy day they tied but on a windy normal every day aero will win easily, cause aero bike is faster not only going fast but against head winds. That being said if you ride out of the saddle like Andrew, aero bike kind lose its purpose, is not suitable for his style.
At my age and power, and the type of riding I do (e.g. not racing), a more lightweight and "endurance" style bike probably makes most sense. But I just love how aero bikes _look_. Neeeeeeeoooooowwwwww!
I was ‘that guy’ being passed at 6:08 in. To anyone who thinks it’s demoralising- it’s not- it’s a great experience being lucky enough to see the uk’s best fly past you as you’re doing hill reps. Take the positive in things- just see what is actually possible- and the ridiculous speed the elite riders smash these climbs up with. Just get out and cycle - I’m not demoralised or broken. I didn’t get off to walk and put the bike on eBay. I just did a few more reps and enjoyed the day out 🎉. And Andrew and the gcn crew were great to chat to.
Same mate, I love hills but am not fast on them, so when I see someone flying past me I just have to go "wow!" and appreciate the talent and fitness some riders possess. Then it's back to me gasping for breath and questioning my life choices 😀
I came to say the same. When you are out of the saddle you are spending energy swinging the bike side to side, and the heavier it is the more energy you waste. So all other things being equal, if you are riding out of the saddle you will benefit more from a lightweight setup.
@@Frostbiker, interesting observation about 'swinging'! No only it takes more energy due to inertia, sideways motion also disturbs the air-flow and cancels the advantage that aero frame provides. These frames are designed to cut through the air not slalom through it.
Pointless test. Told us nothing. I'd expect that a highly trained athlete would be able to do very similar efforts. Just guessing that the lighter bike is faster. Could have done that from the studio.
I don't think anyone believes that a heavier aero bike can go uphill quicker than a much lighter bike, I don't care how many degrees the person telling me that has. Does that calculation take into affect your not in the same riding position doing both and seeing as your the thing creating the most drag and at much slower speeds.
@GCN should make a line of jerseys in National Championships livery with GCN LOGO’s so obviously not past or current National Champions. It would promote National pride.
I think we need power to compare, for starters. I'd also like to see someone who normally climbs seated since climbing out of the saddle makes the whole system way less aero. Deep dive please!
Exactly! You can’t trust “feel” over actual power data. By not having a power meter on the lightweight bike, it’s getting an unfair weight advantage too.
A test over 2 days would have been better, so he had time to recover. But as Andrew said, it’s a relatively shallow climb with a flat section so it’s one of those perhaps borderline scenarios. Overall it doesn’t change the fact that aero is faster on flat and lightweight is faster on uphills.
I’m a bit late to the party here but this is very interesting. As Simon mentioned towards the end of the video, “lighter cyclists often prefer lighter bikes”. I would assume that this is because the lighter you are the more that weight of your bike/equipment will affect your w/kg. The heavier a rider is the less effect the weight of the bike will have and technically then aero would help more. So the question to be answered from this video that would be interesting is not which one is faster, but at what weight is there no difference. As I have no doubt the aero bike is faster at a higher rider weight.
The first part of this statement is absolutely true: because of the lighter weight of the rider: the bikes weight ratio to the rider will be more significant: but this is also aerodynamically true, being smaller for a culmination of reasons provides aerodynamic benefits, this means the exact same situation arises with the bike in aerodynamics (the aerodynamics of the bike is more important for smaller riders) so this pretty much means the bike is more important if you are less of a factor from a weight and aerodynamic standpoint. it does NOT mean weight is more important than aerodynamics for a smaller rider (just that the bikes properties (with weight and aerodynamics) are a higher percentage of that ratio) Hopefully this makes sense :) My conclusion is it will just extremify the circumstances (the aerodynamic bike on a smaller, lighter rider will be substansially more important for the rider in the right situation (flat, windy section) then it would on a taller, more heavy / powerful rider. Visa versa Kind regards
Generally any long ride will have a mixture of terrain. As such a bit hard to judge on a 1.4km uphill effort. Also aero tends to lose significance when climbing. When it comes to longer rides, positioning and comfort take the prize. Ollie's awesome 1000km had him commenting that a more relaxed position would have been better and led to less pain. Really enjoyed watching this video. Andrew is such a unit!! Left the other rider looking like he was standing still.
@@G-rig6969no, it’s not. More Aero always helps. Check evenpoel during saturdays ride in vuelta. He’s way more aero than his opponent. See the difference in position and body. Crosswinds even can help you push forward , not sure if you posses deep wheels, but if you had, you should have felt it. Biggest aero component is the rider, crosswinds or not. The faster you go the more it has advantage.
@@G-rig6969 moderen aero tip with a rounded rim can create lift at yaw angles where older blade like rims would have created instability. You could speculate a modern profile of 80mm might have the instability issuea of a 40 to 50mm older rim. Be a good test, prob a bit to techy for gcn though.
@@lazzaboyman8003 Maybe the same as I do on a stiff climb I do (mostly on foot lol) when a proper mountain biker goes past while I'm lying down resting :)
6:10 imagine your confidence crushed like that 😂. You're climbing along, doing great and someone just flying by you on a climb. Andrew should have yelled " don't worry its ok, I'm the best!"
Feather out the saddle is what caused it imo, aero bikes aren't really that much more aero when the rider isn't included in the system. It's the way the aero bikes direct the air around the rider that makes the difference, and when your out the saddle it's completely different really.
Great video! When Simon threw the lab coat down at the end, I was really hoping he was going to pick up the lightweight Orbea and give the KOM another shot!
I'm a US rider and watching your rides on the more narrow (and more picturesque) UK roads I always wonder how riders and drivers get on? Your drivers seem to be extremely patient compared to US drivers.
My family moved to Switzerland a year ago. The Swiss roads are similar to the UK roads in terms of width etc. The Swiss are avid cyclists and I can confirm that the drivers are extremely patient and respectful of us cyclists. The quality of the roads, the scenery and the respectful drivers will be sorely missed when we head back.
I enjoy hearing more input/comment from Andrew Feather on these rides. From what I recall of ones from a couple of years ago he didn't get to say much and there was the running joke about him just eating a lettuce leaf. It was as though there was a bit of 'The Stig' thing going on, which was funny for a while.
Of course he does. If you put flat panels on his bike it’s going to slow him down whether he stands or sits. In the same way an aero bike is still going to cut through air more whether he himself is aero or not.
The GC grand tour riders still prefer the light bikes on the climbs. Admittedly they get towed up most of it in 2nd or third wheel but if aero really was faster why hasn't the science convinced them/the teams otherwise? Deep dive involving the pro teams POV too... Makes me want that Orbea now, more than ever!
I recently bought a new bike and looked very hard at aero vs. lightweight and specifically an aero Canyon or a lightweight Cannondale. I just couldn't bring myself to get over the bulk look of the aero and opted lightweight instead with wireless shifting. I ended up with a Cannondale Supersix Evo with SRAM AXS eTap. I have to say, it climbs like a goat and seems to not require the wattage my almost 13 year older Trek Madone full carbon bike. Hard to compare these bikes with such a time spread and technology that has come in last 13 years to frames. But I am happy with my choice of lightweight over aero.
The feather needs to stand it's the way he rides to get the most power out, the climb is to short for the aero gains to show through needs a longer faster climb. The feather is a cool dude, great video keep them coming 👍
GCN MUST do a CLIMB CHALLENGE on BRASSKNOCKER HILL in Bath 1.082KM and 151M - a stiffie 13.96% average gradient with plenty of 16% thrown-in to keep you honest - the gauntlet has been NUKE DROPPED
Deep dive please! This was interesting. Perhaps Andrew can repeat this experiment starting with the lightweight bike. That would really put the nail in the coffin on this debate.
Remember aerodynamic drag scales with velocity squared. This means that if you halve your speed (lets say from 40km/s on flat to 20km/s on a climb) you are only experiencing a quarter of the drag. Those few percentage point reductions in drag are now far less meaningful. Obviously those reductions are even smaller when you ride out of the saddle. Compare that to weight which is now both effecting your friction and physically pulling you down the hill
you can watch him race an almost pro Luca Vergallito who is in Alpecin Develpement team (Its a video from some years ago).... It migh be shocking to you but Feather lost. A WT Pro Climber is a lot better than Feather (And in this case someone who is close to becomming a pro but not yet a pro was also better).... for some reason people always want "regular people" to be better than pros..... but there is a reason pros turned pro.... because they are better >-
Accelerations, the lighter bike handled even small changes in gradient better - even if the power, effort from a rider is steady, it reaches optimal speed faster.
I thought the primary advantage of using aero is "descent" section so would have been more relevant if this combined time for both going up and return, not just climb part only
It's sad that there is no power meter on the climbing bike, this let space for speculations only. Btw, as we know the bike count for only 8% of aerodrag, if anyone want to be aero going uphill needs to focus his effort on putting out power seated instead of out of the saddle. I think that because of the speeds involved aerobike could help going faster only on gradient equal or below 5%. So, for this climb lightweight should be better then aero
Maybe the aero bike would make more of a difference in a climber that stays seated? Love the Andrew Feather videos - he doesn't leave anything out there. Respect.
The aero frame is designed to have high aspect tubes to slice through headwinds (or low yaw angle headwinds) but it has a far higher lateral surface area when it comes to rocking from side to side when the rider is out the saddle. Just think about a motor boat or a fishing boat which sets a small mizzen sail to stop its lateral rocking when at sea in rough water. The higher lateral area of the frame and wheel rims on the aero bike is dissipating energy in just the same way that mizzen sail on the fishing boat does. And where does that energy have to come from - the only place it can come from - the rider. So there's part of your reason for the aero bike being slower than expected. They are fast when ridden into a headwind (and don't forget at pro speeds, yaw angles are nearly always low) but they start to dissipate the rider's energy if the rider is honking like AF.
My theory is that this is just bike geometry coming to play. The aero bike prolly has a much bigger departure from Andrew’s traditional climbing bike and therefore, his climbing position.
I live in a hilly region and watched this video hoping to garner some information on gear ratios. The only clue here was the closing shot and the partial view of the cassettes.
Should’nt be a straight out choice between a lightweight (6.5kgs) and aero (8kgs) as these days one can buy an “aero” bike which is 6.8kgs… the choice should be how fast you ride up gradients. If you can ascend greater than 14kms/h the aero becomes more impactful. Over 10-12%, speeds are unlikely to go higher than 14kms/h, then a pure lightweight would be faster. Point though, is to actually just buy the lightweight aero bikes on offer and enjoy the best of both worlds
Rider weight. I am 90 plus kilos now and not the 75 when I raced in the 70s. Oh well, now I am more worried about not falling over, dead. I am also bigger than the average climber at 187cm. I believe that light weight or aero doesn't matter much if you can't push the gears. It is your positioning and behaviors on the bike, how do you corner, maintain the power and attitude. In the olden days, with 5 or 6 speed wheels, I was out of the saddle stoking the biggest gear I could.
ive got an aero bike as my everyday bike ( an Orro ). It is comfortable, quick at speed. The 28mm tyres & deep section wheel upgrade take all of the road out. it's definitely the quickest bike ive ever had... but whenever i get on my previous road bike, a prolite carbon frame, aluminium rims, 23mm tyres at 110psi, cantilever brakes & much lighter, I just feels sharper, more reactive & so much better to climb on ( and im a fat old man who climbs like an anvil )......even more fun to ride... dolan aluminium track frame, vittoria tubs at 180 psi 40cm bars ( ridden 42s on my road bikes for 46 years ). Twitchy AF even on the low banking at herne hill... not a bit of carbon in sight but guaranteed to make you grin
I wonder if you would have gotten a different result with a seated climber. Andrew's standing climbing position is incredibly effective, but it probably nullifies any potential aero gains.
I don't know Andrew's specs (pun intended), but I'd say he's a pretty light rider. The lighter the rider is, the more bike weight matters, as it presents more percentage of the system weight. I'm 58kg, I can feel a full waterbottle up a climb, so getting an aero bike just makes no sence for normal mixed riding. For people above 65-70kg (depending on w/kg), it starts to make more sence, the diminishing returns become really diminished, while for featherweights (pun intended), the differences are so prominent and that's why Andrew didn't need a powermeter to feel the difference.
Lightweight for the climbs, aero for the flats. Cycling is all about conpensations. Not to mention that aero might be slower on the flats in some cases (i.e. strong side winds).
I love Belmont hill. I used to use it for hill reps for alpine training after work, especially after they resurfaced it. By all accounts, probably the last time the council resurfaced any road in Bristol.
We have a hill that is literally almost identical to Belmont Hill there in the UK, its in Indiana US, same distance, elevation gain, category. Very punchy and fun.
I think, at this point in bicycle evolution, in both cases, we fight for really tiny numbers, that may make the difference between winning and losing, but overall are not that impressive. Still, in a strictly climbing scenario, I believe having less weight wins over being aero. The least aero part is always a rider... You can gain a watt or two by aero design, but this is nothing compared to air resistance generated by the rider itself. So, while I understand that in racing every tiny bit of saved energy counts, I don't really understand this race for aerodynamics in the bicycle industry. On the other hand, one can really feel the difference between light and heavy bike on the climb. I'm not sure they are really that impactful between those two designs. But the difference between, let's say, a steel-frame low-end bike and a pro carbon-frame bike can be massive.
Personally, I prefer light weight bikes. I'm 6'5" tall and 230 lbs (104 kg). I don't need the extra weight. But one thing I've learned is that you can go too light. I have a bike that weighs 15 lbs (6.8 kg) and the moment a hill goes above 15% the bike feels awful. I have a bike that weighs 16 lbs (7.25 kg) and this issue doesn't exist.
Give me a lightweight bike with aero touches. Gone are the days of aero frames and deep rims. The Future is lightweight a mix of round and aero tubes. Low profile rims wheelset. 1x front DR and a bigger cassette at the back. Narrower aero handle bars and aero front end
Even though you slanted the test in favor of the aero bike by choosing a less steep grade with a flat mid section, the lightweight prevailed as the better choice. Now had you been measuring time over a 100km rolling course, the aero bike might have been quicker by a greater difference, but for just one hill or for really steep grades, unless there is a strong headwind, you really are just trying to drag a weight upwards against the force of gravity, and under those circumstances less weight is better every time.
Hikers and mountaineers would say "When you reach the summit, you are only half way!" Any time lost on climbing on aero would be gained on descending. So aero would still win over lightweight.
After lugging a touring bike fully laden with kit up Col D’Iseran, I can assure you that weight makes all the difference. A lighter bike is far easier to keep moving.
@@gcn ... I reckon; The Twig eats strawberry jam sandwiches, and The Twiglet (Dr OB) recommends rice pudding with jam. They both go like trains up hill - time for Si to put the white coat and glasses back on?
I vastly preferred my lighter bikes for climbing but I also prefer my current heavier, more comfortable bike for the 20km of bad roads I ride just to get to the start of the climbs. I don't climb as fast or as far anymore, but I enjoy my ride days more.
To compare both bikes, a third run would be necessary - the light bike equipped with e.g. a water bottle filled with sand or something, so it has exactly the same weight as the aero bike, and the power output on all three rune would be interesting. I would chose the aero bike anyway, as you normally also descent where you go uphill. At least it does not matter wether you chose lighter or heavier wheels - when I put in a disc wheel on the rear instead of a trispoke, my time on my climb (the Feldberg in the Taunus nearby Frankfurt, maybe you from the GCN team should try next year when you visit the Eurobike in Frankfurt) is nearly the same.
Which would you choose: lightweight or aero? 🤔 Let us know in the comments below! 👇
Aero, on a non windy day they tied but on a windy normal every day aero will win easily, cause aero bike is faster not only going fast but against head winds.
That being said if you ride out of the saddle like Andrew, aero bike kind lose its purpose, is not suitable for his style.
He looks so much more comfortable on the lite. Maybe it depends on the person?
At my age and power, and the type of riding I do (e.g. not racing), a more lightweight and "endurance" style bike probably makes most sense. But I just love how aero bikes _look_. Neeeeeeeoooooowwwwww!
Personally a lightweight bike with aero wheels. A good compromise between outright speed and feeling lively.
Same starting speed
Same watts
Same position
No body in the front
No cars
And you'll be able to take conclusions
I was ‘that guy’ being passed at 6:08 in. To anyone who thinks it’s demoralising- it’s not- it’s a great experience being lucky enough to see the uk’s best fly past you as you’re doing hill reps. Take the positive in things- just see what is actually possible- and the ridiculous speed the elite riders smash these climbs up with. Just get out and cycle - I’m not demoralised or broken. I didn’t get off to walk and put the bike on eBay. I just did a few more reps and enjoyed the day out 🎉. And Andrew and the gcn crew were great to chat to.
Like a machine going past !
You were doing well too but zoom goes the feather past you. Inspiring isn't it. Good work mate.
Same mate, I love hills but am not fast on them, so when I see someone flying past me I just have to go "wow!" and appreciate the talent and fitness some riders possess. Then it's back to me gasping for breath and questioning my life choices 😀
I'd be stoked having GCN roll up and past on any ride so fair play to you my dude
Where I ride up hills, the fastest riders are 2x faster than me but I still love riding up hills.
It's kind of funny to give Andrew a (heavier) aero bike and expect aero benefits when his preferred riding style is out of the saddle 😅
Yes the aero bike saving as a % of his body drag is going to be small
Good point. He did say he tried to get as aero as possible on the flat section though
Exactly. He's not an aero rider, he's always standing.
I came to say the same. When you are out of the saddle you are spending energy swinging the bike side to side, and the heavier it is the more energy you waste. So all other things being equal, if you are riding out of the saddle you will benefit more from a lightweight setup.
@@Frostbiker, interesting observation about 'swinging'! No only it takes more energy due to inertia, sideways motion also disturbs the air-flow and cancels the advantage that aero frame provides. These frames are designed to cut through the air not slalom through it.
Mr Feather, a rider who goes up hills faster than most people descend.
Gorgeous legs he has.
😂
@@Songbirdstresssaucy
@@Songbirdstressthirsty
@@Songbirdstress spicey
That overtake at 06:08 was a straight up murder :D
poor guy
Audax club Bristol jersey too. Those guys are no mugs.
Even crazier that that guy is in the comment section, lol
No power meter no meaning
Pointless test. Told us nothing. I'd expect that a highly trained athlete would be able to do very similar efforts.
Just guessing that the lighter bike is faster. Could have done that from the studio.
totally agree...wasted effort, half hearted production
Maybe the meaning is that Orbea wants to sell their new lightweight bike and "asked"($) GCN to make a video about it
Maybe not
I don't think anyone believes that a heavier aero bike can go uphill quicker than a much lighter bike, I don't care how many degrees the person telling me that has. Does that calculation take into affect your not in the same riding position doing both and seeing as your the thing creating the most drag and at much slower speeds.
In the name of science, why no power meter????
That white GCN British champs jersey is a thing of beauty.
@GCN should make a line of jerseys in National Championships livery with GCN LOGO’s so obviously not past or current National Champions.
It would promote National pride.
It’s the dutch flag (or luxembourg). So would fit other countries aswell 😅
I think we need power to compare, for starters. I'd also like to see someone who normally climbs seated since climbing out of the saddle makes the whole system way less aero. Deep dive please!
Exactly! You can’t trust “feel” over actual power data. By not having a power meter on the lightweight bike, it’s getting an unfair weight advantage too.
We better get our lab coats on! We love to get nerdy 🤓
@@gcn Yes, it would also be nice to not delete comments criticizing your testing methodology... ;)
Bringing one of the best amateur climbers in the world and then NOT using power meter on both bikes? Hmm....
Why wouldn't you have a PM for this test?? 🤔
Because what is the point of a light bike if you are adding the weight of a power meter? Then its heavy vs heavy.
@@kidShibuyaa powermeter weights an extra 30g
@@kidShibuya it wasn't an ultimate light weight build bike. Could have easily added a pm. Assiomas on both bikes or something.
Putting power meter pedals on it, would have taken 5 minutes.
Shame on you. 👎
A test over 2 days would have been better, so he had time to recover. But as Andrew said, it’s a relatively shallow climb with a flat section so it’s one of those perhaps borderline scenarios. Overall it doesn’t change the fact that aero is faster on flat and lightweight is faster on uphills.
Fun content. But this is just an Orbea commercial, not really a “test”.
I’m a bit late to the party here but this is very interesting. As Simon mentioned towards the end of the video, “lighter cyclists often prefer lighter bikes”. I would assume that this is because the lighter you are the more that weight of your bike/equipment will affect your w/kg. The heavier a rider is the less effect the weight of the bike will have and technically then aero would help more. So the question to be answered from this video that would be interesting is not which one is faster, but at what weight is there no difference. As I have no doubt the aero bike is faster at a higher rider weight.
The first part of this statement is absolutely true: because of the lighter weight of the rider: the bikes weight ratio to the rider will be more significant: but this is also aerodynamically true, being smaller for a culmination of reasons provides aerodynamic benefits, this means the exact same situation arises with the bike in aerodynamics (the aerodynamics of the bike is more important for smaller riders) so this pretty much means the bike is more important if you are less of a factor from a weight and aerodynamic standpoint. it does NOT mean weight is more important than aerodynamics for a smaller rider (just that the bikes properties (with weight and aerodynamics) are a higher percentage of that ratio) Hopefully this makes sense :)
My conclusion is it will just extremify the circumstances (the aerodynamic bike on a smaller, lighter rider will be substansially more important for the rider in the right situation (flat, windy section) then it would on a taller, more heavy / powerful rider. Visa versa
Kind regards
Generally any long ride will have a mixture of terrain. As such a bit hard to judge on a 1.4km uphill effort. Also aero tends to lose significance when climbing. When it comes to longer rides, positioning and comfort take the prize. Ollie's awesome 1000km had him commenting that a more relaxed position would have been better and led to less pain. Really enjoyed watching this video. Andrew is such a unit!! Left the other rider looking like he was standing still.
@@G-rig6969no, it’s not. More Aero always helps. Check evenpoel during saturdays ride in vuelta. He’s way more aero than his opponent. See the difference in position and body. Crosswinds even can help you push forward , not sure if you posses deep wheels, but if you had, you should have felt it. Biggest aero component is the rider, crosswinds or not. The faster you go the more it has advantage.
@@G-rig6969 moderen aero tip with a rounded rim can create lift at yaw angles where older blade like rims would have created instability. You could speculate a modern profile of 80mm might have the instability issuea of a 40 to 50mm older rim. Be a good test, prob a bit to techy for gcn though.
@@G-rig6969 yeah, thats defo the area of greatest gain.
Picking a bit that suites you and makes you want to ride should be the most important and will more than likley get you faster 🙌
No powermeter!?!?!?! Cmon guys, back at it again tomorrow with a powermeter
Wonder what the cyclist at 6.10 was thinking😆
If he sees this video he’ll feel better as it was the Twig going past at speed!
I thought the same , he probably thought .....
I must get an E bike too ........
Such was the speed of the pass
@@lazzaboyman8003 Maybe the same as I do on a stiff climb I do (mostly on foot lol) when a proper mountain biker goes past while I'm lying down resting :)
Probably thought he was going backwards
He quit cycling that day.
6:10 imagine your confidence crushed like that 😂. You're climbing along, doing great and someone just flying by you on a climb. Andrew should have yelled " don't worry its ok, I'm the best!"
I would have been sure the overtaking party was using a e bike haha 😂
He say that, didn’t you stop his national champions jersey, nothing says I am the best more than that!
Hahahah how many people do you think Feather has passed on a climb? 👀
@@gcn on a busy day on alp du huez, 600+
Feather out the saddle is what caused it imo, aero bikes aren't really that much more aero when the rider isn't included in the system. It's the way the aero bikes direct the air around the rider that makes the difference, and when your out the saddle it's completely different really.
Great video! When Simon threw the lab coat down at the end, I was really hoping he was going to pick up the lightweight Orbea and give the KOM another shot!
Hahahahah don't temp him 👀
I'm a US rider and watching your rides on the more narrow (and more picturesque) UK roads I always wonder how riders and drivers get on? Your drivers seem to be extremely patient compared to US drivers.
They generally are. In the cities it might be a bit more boisterous, but on country lanes generally everyone gets along.
It’s a real mixed bag to be honest, there are good and bad drivers.
In these videos, probably the camera pointing out the back of a motorcycle in front of the cyclist helps a lot.
Car drivers are cnuts everywhere ! Cyclists have the same respect as pedophiles in uk
My family moved to Switzerland a year ago. The Swiss roads are similar to the UK roads in terms of width etc. The Swiss are avid cyclists and I can confirm that the drivers are extremely patient and respectful of us cyclists. The quality of the roads, the scenery and the respectful drivers will be sorely missed when we head back.
The speed at which he passed that other cyclist!
He's pretty fast isn't he 🚀
I feel a deep kinship with the rider Andrew blew past.
Check out how backwards the bars are rotated / high the hoods are. Interesting position.
Andrew climbing out of the saddle probably ruins aero-Ollies sleep 😅
Ollie the Aero Police
I enjoy hearing more input/comment from Andrew Feather on these rides. From what I recall of ones from a couple of years ago he didn't get to say much and there was the running joke about him just eating a lettuce leaf. It was as though there was a bit of 'The Stig' thing going on, which was funny for a while.
Hi doesn't waste his breath on talking... he keeps it all for the climbs
I am so glad Simon still does GCN
With my body weight, bike and add-ons, I'm pushing 275lbs up hills. Hills are already hard enough for me!
Feather doesnt climb seated so he's not getting aero gains?
Of course he does. If you put flat panels on his bike it’s going to slow him down whether he stands or sits. In the same way an aero bike is still going to cut through air more whether he himself is aero or not.
He almost always standing up while climbing.
That poor guy in the orange top having Andrew fly past him
Feather out there destroying everyones dreams 😂
@@gcnsome say, that man un-clipped, and is still walking up hill ‘til this very day.
Great job Andrew! I really appreciate your participation in all the tests GCN cooks up for you. It’s a joy to watch you fly :)
Hahahaha we always feel like evil geniuses cooking up videos for Andrew 😈
The GC grand tour riders still prefer the light bikes on the climbs. Admittedly they get towed up most of it in 2nd or third wheel but if aero really was faster why hasn't the science convinced them/the teams otherwise? Deep dive involving the pro teams POV too... Makes me want that Orbea now, more than ever!
I recently bought a new bike and looked very hard at aero vs. lightweight and specifically an aero Canyon or a lightweight Cannondale. I just couldn't bring myself to get over the bulk look of the aero and opted lightweight instead with wireless shifting. I ended up with a Cannondale Supersix Evo with SRAM AXS eTap. I have to say, it climbs like a goat and seems to not require the wattage my almost 13 year older Trek Madone full carbon bike. Hard to compare these bikes with such a time spread and technology that has come in last 13 years to frames. But I am happy with my choice of lightweight over aero.
The feather needs to stand it's the way he rides to get the most power out, the climb is to short for the aero gains to show through needs a longer faster climb. The feather is a cool dude, great video keep them coming 👍
For some more of Feather, you should check out our 'Everesting' film we made with him on GCN+ 👉 gcn.eu/8848m
... too* short
Lightweight will always prevail for climbing.
GCN MUST do a CLIMB CHALLENGE on BRASSKNOCKER HILL in Bath 1.082KM and 151M - a stiffie 13.96% average gradient with plenty of 16% thrown-in to keep you honest - the gauntlet has been NUKE DROPPED
I'd vote for Lansdown Lane/Weston hill. 1.58km, Elevation Gain of 164m Avg Grade 10.3%, with a steepest 100m with 17.4% gradient.
Pretty sure Andrew already has the KOM on that 😂
the patience of the driver of that gray car from 2:02 to 2:41 😭🤣
Re-do the test, with powermeter on both bikes. Numbers don't lie. At 26kph aero should save "some" watts. And do at least 3 runs each with both bikes.
We are all the rider Andrew flies by at 6:11 or so. Just keep pedaling…just keep pedaling…
Deep dive please! This was interesting. Perhaps Andrew can repeat this experiment starting with the lightweight bike. That would really put the nail in the coffin on this debate.
Remember aerodynamic drag scales with velocity squared. This means that if you halve your speed (lets say from 40km/s on flat to 20km/s on a climb) you are only experiencing a quarter of the drag. Those few percentage point reductions in drag are now far less meaningful. Obviously those reductions are even smaller when you ride out of the saddle.
Compare that to weight which is now both effecting your friction and physically pulling you down the hill
Andrew blowing by the guy in the classic Bristol jersey priceless.
I think Andrew Feather is faster on that climb than I am on the flat.
He certainly doesn't hang around 😉
Love lightweight bikes
They're so great for flying up those steep climbs! 🚀
I’d like to see feather race a world tour pro up a 5-6 minute climb.
you can watch him race an almost pro Luca Vergallito who is in Alpecin Develpement team (Its a video from some years ago).... It migh be shocking to you but Feather lost. A WT Pro Climber is a lot better than Feather (And in this case someone who is close to becomming a pro but not yet a pro was also better).... for some reason people always want "regular people" to be better than pros..... but there is a reason pros turned pro.... because they are better >-
@@lordad feather’s not really a regular person though is he, just look at his power on strava.
Accelerations, the lighter bike handled even small changes in gradient better - even if the power, effort from a rider is steady, it reaches optimal speed faster.
I thought the primary advantage of using aero is "descent" section so would have been more relevant if this combined time for both going up and return, not just climb part only
It's sad that there is no power meter on the climbing bike, this let space for speculations only.
Btw, as we know the bike count for only 8% of aerodrag, if anyone want to be aero going uphill needs to focus his effort on putting out power seated instead of out of the saddle. I think that because of the speeds involved aerobike could help going faster only on gradient equal or below 5%.
So, for this climb lightweight should be better then aero
Similarly the 1.3kg difference in bike weights is only around 1.7% of the system weight or around 7watts on that climb.
What glasses is Andrew Feather wearing? They look sick. Need to get me some
Maybe the aero bike would make more of a difference in a climber that stays seated? Love the Andrew Feather videos - he doesn't leave anything out there. Respect.
Maybe the bike is aero and light! It would be really interesting how much difference is between the two bikes. It would be a nice wind tunnel video 😅
Can we see a return of the aero bike/aero wheels, light bike/light wheels, aero bike/light wheels, and light bike/aero wheels?
I guess using a power meter on both runs would have proved something one way or another, which may not be in line with Orbea's marketing aims.
The aero frame is designed to have high aspect tubes to slice through headwinds (or low yaw angle headwinds) but it has a far higher lateral surface area when it comes to rocking from side to side when the rider is out the saddle.
Just think about a motor boat or a fishing boat which sets a small mizzen sail to stop its lateral rocking when at sea in rough water.
The higher lateral area of the frame and wheel rims on the aero bike is dissipating energy in just the same way that mizzen sail on the fishing boat does.
And where does that energy have to come from - the only place it can come from - the rider.
So there's part of your reason for the aero bike being slower than expected. They are fast when ridden into a headwind (and don't forget at pro speeds, yaw angles are nearly always low) but they start to dissipate the rider's energy if the rider is honking like AF.
What I'd give to be pedalling up a climb; see El Feather come blasting past and then appear in the background of GCN
Unfortunately without the power data on the second bicycle, this experiment wasn’t conclusive.
My theory is that this is just bike geometry coming to play. The aero bike prolly has a much bigger departure from Andrew’s traditional climbing bike and therefore, his climbing position.
A pedal based power meter and a pedal wrench would make the video way better
I live in a hilly region and watched this video hoping to garner some information on gear ratios. The only clue here was the closing shot and the partial view of the cassettes.
Should’nt be a straight out choice between a lightweight (6.5kgs) and aero (8kgs) as these days one can buy an “aero” bike which is 6.8kgs… the choice should be how fast you ride up gradients. If you can ascend greater than 14kms/h the aero becomes more impactful. Over 10-12%, speeds are unlikely to go higher than 14kms/h, then a pure lightweight would be faster. Point though, is to actually just buy the lightweight aero bikes on offer and enjoy the best of both worlds
Simons videos are always the best 🎉
Love Andrew’s new stripes!!
gee thanks. I’m wrecking my head whether my next bike will be lw or aero. This cleared all doubts. Relatively speaking.
We want to see Feather do it again on the orbea with power meter and fresh legs
Business idea: Lightweight Aero bike
The aero bike is totally pointless if your standing the whole time.
Downhill section in a hill climb, take both bikes to hardknott pass and redo test.
Thats one of my vans as the 2nd bike takes the first corner up belmont, they said the moped behind andrew filming him nearly come off 😁😁
Rider weight. I am 90 plus kilos now and not the 75 when I raced in the 70s. Oh well, now I am more worried about not falling over, dead. I am also bigger than the average climber at 187cm. I believe that light weight or aero doesn't matter much if you can't push the gears. It is your positioning and behaviors on the bike, how do you corner, maintain the power and attitude. In the olden days, with 5 or 6 speed wheels, I was out of the saddle stoking the biggest gear I could.
Lets compare a aero bike to a climbing bike without power just by the time and pure feeling. Yeah okay, thats like going back to 2015… wtf
That guy he passed was probably on an Ebike aswell 😂 Feather is a Beast!
ive got an aero bike as my everyday bike ( an Orro ). It is comfortable, quick at speed. The 28mm tyres & deep section wheel upgrade take all of the road out. it's definitely the quickest bike ive ever had... but whenever i get on my previous road bike, a prolite carbon frame, aluminium rims, 23mm tyres at 110psi, cantilever brakes & much lighter, I just feels sharper, more reactive & so much better to climb on ( and im a fat old man who climbs like an anvil )......even more fun to ride... dolan aluminium track frame, vittoria tubs at 180 psi 40cm bars ( ridden 42s on my road bikes for 46 years ). Twitchy AF even on the low banking at herne hill... not a bit of carbon in sight but guaranteed to make you grin
I wonder if you would have gotten a different result with a seated climber. Andrew's standing climbing position is incredibly effective, but it probably nullifies any potential aero gains.
I don't know Andrew's specs (pun intended), but I'd say he's a pretty light rider. The lighter the rider is, the more bike weight matters, as it presents more percentage of the system weight. I'm 58kg, I can feel a full waterbottle up a climb, so getting an aero bike just makes no sence for normal mixed riding. For people above 65-70kg (depending on w/kg), it starts to make more sence, the diminishing returns become really diminished, while for featherweights (pun intended), the differences are so prominent and that's why Andrew didn't need a powermeter to feel the difference.
Lightweight for the climbs, aero for the flats. Cycling is all about conpensations. Not to mention that aero might be slower on the flats in some cases (i.e. strong side winds).
The lightweight bike Orca looks so much nicer.. just my opinion.. Pete 😊👍
I love Belmont hill. I used to use it for hill reps for alpine training after work, especially after they resurfaced it. By all accounts, probably the last time the council resurfaced any road in Bristol.
It's a lovely little climb isn't it! Or not if it's your last hill before home after a long ride 😂
Y’all should do a review on factor ostro on flats vs climbs
We have a hill that is literally almost identical to Belmont Hill there in the UK, its in Indiana US, same distance, elevation gain, category. Very punchy and fun.
I think, at this point in bicycle evolution, in both cases, we fight for really tiny numbers, that may make the difference between winning and losing, but overall are not that impressive. Still, in a strictly climbing scenario, I believe having less weight wins over being aero. The least aero part is always a rider... You can gain a watt or two by aero design, but this is nothing compared to air resistance generated by the rider itself. So, while I understand that in racing every tiny bit of saved energy counts, I don't really understand this race for aerodynamics in the bicycle industry. On the other hand, one can really feel the difference between light and heavy bike on the climb. I'm not sure they are really that impactful between those two designs. But the difference between, let's say, a steel-frame low-end bike and a pro carbon-frame bike can be massive.
I would like to see Emonda vs Domane next if possible for the same test on the same road and rider.
Personally, I prefer light weight bikes. I'm 6'5" tall and 230 lbs (104 kg). I don't need the extra weight. But one thing I've learned is that you can go too light. I have a bike that weighs 15 lbs (6.8 kg) and the moment a hill goes above 15% the bike feels awful. I have a bike that weighs 16 lbs (7.25 kg) and this issue doesn't exist.
Good vid but it can't have been difficult to find a second powermeter and put it on the lightweight bike
Give me a lightweight bike with aero touches. Gone are the days of aero frames and deep rims. The Future is lightweight a mix of round and aero tubes. Low profile rims wheelset. 1x front DR and a bigger cassette at the back. Narrower aero handle bars and aero front end
Question for you? What about having a climbing / light weight bike with 50 mm carbon wheels, best of both worlds
We finally need one time aero bikes made out of plastic. Would do the job I think.
About time with modern materials and technology bike manufacturers should be able to make a light weight aero bike
Even though you slanted the test in favor of the aero bike by choosing a less steep grade with a flat mid section, the lightweight prevailed as the better choice.
Now had you been measuring time over a 100km rolling course, the aero bike might have been quicker by a greater difference, but for just one hill or for really steep grades, unless there is a strong headwind, you really are just trying to drag a weight upwards against the force of gravity, and under those circumstances less weight is better every time.
Now same wheels, aero frame versus lightweight frame. And a power meter on both.
Hikers and mountaineers would say "When you reach the summit, you are only half way!" Any time lost on climbing on aero would be gained on descending. So aero would still win over lightweight.
I've never set a single PR on my aero bike on a uphill segment. That's enough evidence for me.
Check on your UK climbing friends at 6:08
After lugging a touring bike fully laden with kit up Col D’Iseran, I can assure you that weight makes all the difference. A lighter bike is far easier to keep moving.
If I change from my preferred black cherry jam to strawberry jam, will I be faster? A deep dive needed into jams I think.
Is this some niche area of marginal gains that we haven't found out about yet?? 😂
@@gcn ... I reckon; The Twig eats strawberry jam sandwiches, and The Twiglet (Dr OB) recommends rice pudding with jam.
They both go like trains up hill - time for Si to put the white coat and glasses back on?
Yes do the deep dive I’m curious very curious!!
6:11 Imagine dying on your way up a climb and you get passed like you're standing still
I vastly preferred my lighter bikes for climbing but I also prefer my current heavier, more comfortable bike for the 20km of bad roads I ride just to get to the start of the climbs. I don't climb as fast or as far anymore, but I enjoy my ride days more.
Seems to us that the moral of the story is just enjoy the bike you are riding 👀
@@gcn the Aero part of Aero Endurance bike is also surprisingly nice, especially with a persistent head wind.
That one second would have been lost in my guy here taking THE WORST POSSIBLE LINE through that corner at 8:06
I definitely pick light for hill climbs, I believe unless you are going over 18mph the aero does not outweigh the weight.
When are we going to find Andrew Feather fanshirts in the merch shop???
Seriously!
To compare both bikes, a third run would be necessary - the light bike equipped with e.g. a water bottle filled with sand or something, so it has exactly the same weight as the aero bike, and the power output on all three rune would be interesting.
I would chose the aero bike anyway, as you normally also descent where you go uphill. At least it does not matter wether you chose lighter or heavier wheels - when I put in a disc wheel on the rear instead of a trispoke, my time on my climb (the Feldberg in the Taunus nearby Frankfurt, maybe you from the GCN team should try next year when you visit the Eurobike in Frankfurt) is nearly the same.