Historian explains how Germany misunderstands Ukraine and why
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- Опубликовано: 25 июн 2024
- Germany is now the second-largest provider of military aid to Ukraine and one of the biggest allies of Kyiv in its efforts against Russian aggression. But Berlin was initially hesitant to give Ukraine heavy weaponry and still falls short of supplying Kyiv with long-range arms, citing fears of a direct confrontation with Moscow.
How have Russian propaganda narratives and historical links between Russia and Germany influenced the Germans’ perception of Ukraine? Why many Germans have failed to see Vladimir Putin’s Russia as an imperial power? Is Germany still romanticizing Russian culture?
To get answers to these questions, Kyiv Independent’s journalist Dinara Khalilova spoke with Franziska Davies, assistant professor of Eastern and Central Eastern European History at the Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich.
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German nationalism was born out of the Napoleonic Wars. American nationalism was born out of the American Revolution. Most nationalism is birthed out of some national struggle. It's the potential of where it ends that can be problematic.
Dutch here, same thing for us. Some exceptions I could note are maybe India (Hindu nationalism) and Brazil (I don't know where their nationalism comes from)
Well, with the Germans nationalism ended with National Socialists in the form of the NSDAP, Adolf and the holocaust, so their understanding may be a little skewed.
@klszwarc
Well, the Germans National Socialists tried to exploit nationalism and socialism to offer a "progressive" "third way": nazism.
Current Russian nationalism is the result of The Great Patriot War against the Nazis. They venerate Stalin as a God despite his shortcomings and long list of atrocities against his own kin and other nations. All current cultism for the military is inspired from the military victory over the Nazis.
During Pre-Soviet Russia, there was nationalism, emboldened by Napoleonic wars and expansion against the Ottomans, but that was different. During those times, there was appreciation for arts, culture, and the sciences, despite brutal oppression. Then, everything except science was destroyed by the Soviets. Current Russia worships militarism and imperialism but has no respect for the art, culture, spirit, and science that previous eras had. The Orthodox Church is just an extension of the Russian intelligence services, FSB.
Russian nationalism ended in creating a zombie without a mind or soul that sees its only chance at redemption through devouring other people.
@@AdrianA-mo5qd i don't think I agree on that. much of the Russian nationalism today also has to do with the czarist empire. The amount of support for the black yellow white flag is pretty big
Yes this is a good thing to explain. I am an Irish-American so I find myself having to try to explain it often to other American leftists who get nervous when they see the level of nationalism over there and I tell them "that's like comparing the 'Black power' movement in America to 'white power' as it has been practiced in America" it is a superficial and false equivalence because Ukrainians have had their culture, language and identity TAKEN from them and are trying to RE-assert it along with their freedom and autonomy. So yes, if I saw a neighborhood in the USA where there were as many flags waving as you see in Ukraine sometimes... yes I'd think "eesh this looks pretty fascist" but that's because that level of nationalism here in _America_ where we are VERY powerful and secure and safe and under no direct threat... is a VERY different thing born of VERY different motivations...
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and we're glad that the video was helpful!
Thanks for your observations. I especially appreciate the comparison between “black power” and “white power” in the US - very very different movements
Danes use flags everywhere, probably even more so than Ukranians. I doubt anyone thinks that we are Fascists.
Good job on working with your misguided friends.
well the difference is ukraine openly adheres nazi collaborators and SS officers who personally participated in holocaust(like roman shukhevych)only because they were also anti soviet.and they denounce the red army which saved europe.
Is there such nationalism in Ireland?
Insightful interview, glad to see Germany has such eloquent and responsible academics!
Thank you for watching!
Thank you for the comment. I couldn't find the words myself but it mimics my experience.
Early German nationalism in 19th century actually was anti-imperialist. First against Napoleon (1813), than against Prussia and other kingdoms (1848).
Than it was used later on by the prussians to unite then into an empire... imperial germany, the birthplace od white superiority myth
Along with victorian england
@@Bleilock1 You'd have a hard time finding any civilisation in the past that didn't foster some superiority myth of one sort or another.
Picking on the Prussians or the British sounds just like another attempt at racism in this context.
@@untubus thats what fascist historical revisionism would have you believe, yes, you buy the propaganda
Take the book on 19th century imperialism and birth of white superiority myth
It was used to justify atrocities they did to people they colonized
Nothing to do with your nationalistic victim myth nationalists tell themselves while commiting atrocities to justify "superiority"
Germans in 19th century were not victims by any means, like funny mustache guy would have you believe
@@untubus Think of all the societies that were assimilated and eradicated.
@@Bleilock1 Imperial Germany was by far not the birthplace of white superiority (white supremacy bullshit already existed a century before the German Empire). Imperial Germany was not even a birthplace of national chauvinism of one European power over the others.
Ukraine as a blind spot is a pretty huge literal blind spot (almost twice the size of Germany).
Do you know how many conferences, meetings and Attempts for peace Germany initiated after 2014?
If Ukraine was a blind spot, why would Germany bother to engage in any negotiations at all?
Do you know why Germany did not start Northstream 2?
:D even a blind chicken finds a corn (Germany sayings in engrish ;))
@@mountainmoments "a corn" was 8 years of continous negotiations. explain me why putin did not invade Kyiv in 2014 if not for the reason the EU threatened to stop purchasing gas in case he does?
Except that merkel increased the german dependence to 65% after 2014, after vetoing Nato membership in 2008. merkel wasn’t pro ukrainian. She was a mercantilist. Only the economy was important to her. Nothing else.
@@jennysue601 if only the economy was important to her, why even bother in Minsk agreements? why not start northstream 2 straight away? why save the life of Putins most promising domestic Opponent?
oh, and this dependence you are talking of, where is it? regarding energy, germany replaced the russian natural gas within months.
there are many things i can blame merkel for. things like not investing enough in infrastructure, not reducing bureocracy, not encouraging families to have childs. but i dont blame her of being blind towards russia just because people claim it, being victim to their own confirmation bias. if media outlets blame someone, ask why they do it instead just blindly follow the opinion.
on the other hand, you still do not understand: the only reason Putin had not to invade Ukraine had been these gas deals. this goes even further back into the the cold war times. the whole dissolution of the warsaw pact would have been a giant european bloodshed if not the mutual economic interdependency wasnt in effect.
Putin in 2014 wanted to send Yanukovich troops. Dont tell me Putin would not use his military to put the thumb down on any protest in countries he perceives as his satelite. russians always did this, in east germany, in prag, in poland, in rumania. later in chechnya, in georgia. and even in January 2022 in Kazachstan. so again: why he didnt in 2014 intervened in Kyiv?
so many people are in fact wrong in blaming germany, and its time to make up your mind on that:
Putin invaded because he has imperial phantom pain. because he couldnt transform his country into something succesfull. because he is a chauvinist. he couldnt admit that what he admired, the soviet union, was weak. that is the reason. nothing else. stop shifting the blame on germany! germany was nowhere near in a position to stop Putin from invading Ukraine. Putin does not stop because someone sanction him. not because someone increases military spending. not because anoyne uses sharp rhetoric.
the only thing that stops Putin is force, is the ukrainian army. and looking who is supporting the ukrainian army the most, its in absolute numbers the USA and in 2.place germany. Regarding GDP in Europe the baltics, the danish and the dutch are leading as net contributors, and germany is ranking in the upper third. In the G7 group its germany leading by GDP terms. so what the actual F people have the impudence to start with germany when it comes to complain of lack of support?
Thank you for the interview. I am from Poland and I agree 100%🇺🇦🇵🇱
Vielen Dank an Kyiv Independent für dieses ausgezeichnete Kurzinterview. Weitere gute Osteuropa-Historiker:innen im deutschsprachigen Sprachraum sind:
- Wilfried Jilge (DE)
- Karl Schlögel (DE)
- Andreas Kappeler (CH)
- Heinrich August Winkler (DE)
- Kerstin Jobst (DE)
- Klaus Gestwa (DE)
- Caudia Major (Politologin, DE)
Thank you for reccomendations!
Manche nennen diese Leute Kriegstreiber....?
Danke, ein paar kannte ich schon, der Rest wird nachgeschlagen.
@@NoHairMan Ist gern geschehen.
All separatist movements are this kind of nationalism. Imperialism can be on a big scale or a small scale. But small regions of countries that have their own national or cultural identity feel colonized, even though the colonizer is not (always) a dictatorship. Feeling colonized is always bad, regardless of how the colonizer behaves.
Слава Україні та її воїнам 🇺🇦Героям слава 🇺🇦
Слава Україні🇺🇦
Thank you for this informative interview. Very well explained.
Thank you for watching 🤗
Thank you, this was a great interview and it reminded me of things I've heard Timothy Snyder say about Germany's relationship with russia and their outlook on Ukraine. It's good to hear it from a German person though, and I'll be looking out for Franziska Davies' work from now on.
Great interview
Thank you for watching!
Thank you F. Davies and D. Khalilova
Thank you for watching!
Well explained, but there are also other reasons, and they are mostly ideological in nature. The German radical left, but also some moderate leftists have identified the US as their main enemy, and with their anti-Americanism they tend to be pro Russian, which they see as an anti-pole agains the US. Then there are some Germans in the former GDR, who have made good experiece with Russian soldiers stationed there, or who have served in the NVA. This is a minority in Eastern Germany, but the most radical statements in Germany about 'the evil West' and the good Russians are comming from them, and there is also the strongest believe in the myth and Russian propaganda of the West lying and betraying Russia, which in turn has to defend itself. I was born in West Germany but have lived 20 years in Eastern Germany and have witnessed the hate against the West. That said, I stand with Ukraine and Israel.
Classic western german fascists
No real leftists are pro russian
Its just germany is so far right wing that conservatism for you guys is "moderate left" lol
And east germany hatjng the west has more to do eith how pro-capitslist fascists of the western germany treated the eastern germans after the reunification in 89.
Classic right winger logic
Its also classically ironic for germans like you to support zionist israel, another fascist apartheid regime, you guys really love being fascists lol
Yes, the ones complaining about the disadvantages in eastern germany want the ones who caused them back. I don't get it.
zwanzich jahre nüscht verstanden.
@@martinwagner4960 which proves my point.
Classic western german fascists, uneducated and brainwashed
Thank you for the insightful interview. As an 1980s American exchange student in West Germany, I never really understood Germans being so shy internationally, while being so strong, even with our war. Of course, back then, Ukraine was still USSR, and forgotten by us. I am very glad, 40 years later, Ukraine is now very much strongly relevant, and important, and that Germany is now finding its deserved strength. Slava Ukraine!
Only Americans and Ukrainians are happy about what you call "Germany's strength". German people know quite well that this is an US-proxy war which destroys their prosperity and peace !
Thank you for watching, and thank you for this comment!
What is deserved in that context? Does Ukraine "deserve" to be invaded and have to fight for the rest of Europe? Does Germany deserve anything after 1945? Better calling us lucky. Ukraine is relevant, but also rather crashed. Economy is ruined, demography is a desaster and the people are wounded by the brutal reality of war. Even if many Europeans admire its resilience hardly many want to switch places. The war is a deep desaster for Europe, Russia and especially Ukraine whatever the outcome will be. There is just the choice between rather bad and complete desaster. The whole mindset of Europe is rather damaged. There is hardly a sense of a bright future or a new peace. Everybody prepares for more war and conserve the remnants of the past while world is turning.
Lord Acton once observed: The most certain test by which we judge whether a country is really free is the amount of security enjoyed by minorities.
Freedom requires tolerance, a concept embedded in openness, in glasnost, and in our first amendment protections for the freedoms of speech, association, and religion -- all religions.
Tolerance nourishes hope. A priest wrote of glasnost: Today, more than ever the words of Paul the Apostle, spoken 2,000 years ago, ring out: They counted us among the dead, but look, we are alive. In Ukraine, in Russia, in Armenia, and the Baltics, the spirit of liberty thrives.
But freedom cannot survive if we let despots flourish or permit seemingly minor restrictions to multiply until they form chains, until they form shackles. Later today, I'll visit the monument at Babi Yar -- a somber reminder, a solemn reminder, of what happens when people fail to hold back the horrible tide of intolerance and tyranny.
Yet freedom is not the same as independence. Americans will not support those who seek independence in order to replace a far-off tyranny with a local despotism. They will not aid those who promote a suicidal nationalism based upon ethnic hatred.
Lord Acton was speaking at a time of great power struggle and genocide.
Today, the west has developed a pathological self hatred, they throw their own veterans and heroes out on the streets while showering convicted terrorists and the worst criminals with huge amounts of welfare and free legal representation.
Loving your own people and culture is not xenophobia or extremism.
Why wouldnt the russians use that narrative . its tried and tested
A very intellectual lady who is absolutely on point. Where this Hungarian toad is going I do not know!
German nationalism was absolutely rooted in liberalism and liberation from the absolute monarchies of Austria and Prussia, what are you on about? Similarly, Italian nationalism originated as liberation against Austrian influence. Similarly, Serbian nationalism in opposition to the Ottoman Empire.
In the long run, and by "long" I mean the liberatory nationalism of the French Revolution took about decade to produce Napoleon Bonaparte and the French Empire, the predominant form of nationalism can easily change from liberal, leftist, anti colonial to far right. There are prominent far right forces in Ukraine. There have been for a while.
Hey, guess what? America was also founded on liberal anticolonial nationalism. Did the founding fathers abolish slavery? Did the US avoid the idea of "Manifest Destiny"?
Nationalism in the modern parlance means "being a jerk about your identity", which as far as I was taught, used to be called Chauvinism. Nationalism as it was used at the height of the ideology's political influence, meant centering politics around one's cultural-linguistic identity. And the group of people who share this identity are the nation.
As a Lithuanian, a member of a nation whose national awakening successfully led to the creation of an ultimately enduring nation-state (a state whose foundation is representing its host nation's interests) over a hundred years ago, I congratulate Ukrainians on completing their own national awakening.
Pride in sensible amounts goes a long way while culture and language serve as a unifying and propelling force.
As a Pole, I feel that you are confusing two meanings of nationalism. Because what you are describing, yes, it is found in nationalist parties that I know of in the history and present of Poland. It is a sick, chauvinistic, often racist type of pseudo-patriotism. But here it's more about the other meaning of nationalism, as an ideology in which we began to think of ourselves in national terms at all (you write that you're Lithuanian, I write that I'm Polish -- it's clearly important to us, and in that sense we're "nationalists"); about what national myths we cultivate. This doesn't have to be toxic -- and usually isn't.
@@PKowalski2009 I'm in total agreement with you. And I agree that nationalism can be used for evil, but so can other ideologies. Britain created concentration camps in the name of... profit?
My point is regarding the topic of the video - the meaning of the term "nationalism" is being changed in the West to a different one. To the point where it's becoming hard to even discuss nationalism itself.
Very interesting and enlightening to hear the German perspective. I had not thought about the fact that German nationalism was not born out of a revolutionary self-creation like America, France, and so many other nation-states. I definitely see many parallels between the birth of America and the birth of Ukrainian nationalism. Interesting to know that Germans gravitate to seeing that negatively and miss the positive anti-colonial truth of Ukrainian nationalism. Thank you Dinara and KI for doing this interview! Proud supporter of KI
Excellent analysis. Highly convincing.
Super important discussion!!! Patriotism and Nazism saree separate forces. There is intersection in certain cases like Maidan, of course. But RuZZia has percentage-wise WAY more radical nationalists. It is definately evident in this war. Even here in the USA we have more than Ukraine does. Every country has this problem. It is what it is. It must be met with clear eyes and firm resolve.
Thank you for this enriching presentation.
Ukraine has not existed as a nation state except for a very short time after ww1.That is why many people in western Europe always believed that Ukraine is russian and not something else - much like most people have difficulty to distinguish between the "germanic" countries Denmark, Netherlands, Germany, Austria and Switzerland.
It is more about the russian propaganda circulated around the world after the fall of soviet union. It has convinced plenty that US was the culprit behind the plot. There is no mention of what soviet union was doing to the people. That’s why, it is hard for many to understand why anyone would reject the home of a ‘great power’. This is made worse by how Russia portrays itself as equal of the US. They also circulated the propaganda that Ukraine’s independence made it a failed state.
It exists as a nation state since 1991 now and was not Russian even before, but Part of USSR. What many Germans could not believe is that a full war would start between the two countries. However, WE learned already in the 1990s that those countries are not the same, their capitals etc.
People have difficulties to distinguish Danemark and Germany? I don't think so. One is monarchy the other not, the languages are so different that we cannot understand each other, Danemark is seen as part of Scandinavian world, while Germany definitely not and Danes saved their Jews by evacuation to Sweden, while Germans cheered and organized their deportation to death camps. Maybe from outside Europe they look similar, but within Europe nobody would Mix us up.
Russia never existed as a nation state, does anyone question its existence or sovereignity?
And on some point russia didnt existed.
What is your point
In minute 4 she is partly wrong. Germany and other European countries defeated Soviet imperialism by revolution and Napoleonic imperialism by war. The professor got trapped by her own narrative which is actually the narrative of West Germany after WWII period. But there are always several views. Also the 1871 national state is to some extend an achievement by the people who asked for unity and civil rights even if the old elite made only small concessions. Also the Lutherian period could be seen as some emanzipation of Roman rule and precursor of national movement. Even if the horrible impact of German nationalism is peramount, it would be wrong to reduce German state and nation building (which are clearly different things) only to the Third Reich period. On the other hand the Ukrainian way is also not as straight as some Westeners try to tell us now. There was some opposition to the opposition on Maidan in the first place, even if strongly fed by Russian influence and finally enforced to the occupied teritorries by the foreign power. I also don't agree that we are in vast parts of society unaware of our own imperialism. Not only are there already longer lasting discussions on colonial history and possible restitution/compensation, buut also the policy of 1971-1918 and Third Reich is for decades now taught in schools as imperial and colonial policy. "Lebensraum policy" was subject in high school history class in the 1990s and also the fleet policy before WWI. It might be shadowed by Schoah and the World Wars (compared to West European powers) and its consequences, but to assume that Germans have no idea of their imperial past is not correct. The North Stream policy was not mainly against Ukraine, but to get energy supply more independent from our neighbours who every now and then clearly acted against German interests (new vs old Europe under Bush, several tries to sabotage EU etc.). From today's perspective this policy might look clearly stupid and deeply wrong, but other countries also fight for their interests sometimes in a rather selfish and not so clever way. It is also a mental thing that Germans felt sometimes rather lonely since 1990s. UK, Poland and sometimes even France tried to built alliances against Germany. The Soviet Union was a reliable resource deliverer for decades and Germans were thankful for the Gorbatchev era. That made them a bit blind for the development in Moscow and its imperial ambitions which have not dissapeared. However, you cannot say Germany did not care about development in Ukraine even if it was indeed to some extend terra inkognita for many of us. When Maidan happened, the German president immediately traveled to Kyiv and had some business there (which is obscure for ordinary citizens till today). The Western impact on the revolution was obvious even if it might have been the peoples own deep wish. Alsothe rather aggressive behaviour of the ambassador made it tricky for many Germans to trust Ukraine in the beginning. She is right that the beginning of the war triggered old German traumata and unsolved conflicts with internal responsibility on the past. On the other hand it is rather logical and reasonable not to be enthusiastic about war at all. Germans know what it means if your country gets destroyed and they are not willing to blindly running into a new war after losing two times heavily.
Interesting and nuanced, thx!
Very interesting and insightful. Great conversation 👍
Russian society is 100 percent responsible for the Ukraine war. Responsible means they are accountable.
way too abstract, way too short.
Lets start in 1922. Germans love history.
❤ wonderful video. Respect!
Many thanks!
Excellent point about Navalny and his team!
He was anti-Putin, and his imperialistic and racists views are “not important”.
No effort to end the war.
They could at least coordinate efforts of those Russians who are willing to fight against Russia as part of Ukraine’s arms forces - no effort whatsoever.
Basically, Navalny died for nothing and his team is hugely misled.
The idea of the 'special Russian soul' is childish drivel. Not because there is no soul in Russia, its people, its literature, culture, art, whatever, but because the Soul is deeper than nationality, and has no nationality.
I don't think it means that the Soul "has" a nationality (a ridiculous idea), but simply that the collective character/qualities of a nation is an expression of its Soul.
@@firephilosopher7645 Generally, in fact, when these Russian nationalists talk about 'The Special Russian Soul', which they love to go on and on about, they actually identify it as the soul that is there individually within all Russians, and is then expressed collectively in unity and confomity to that, and which (by that very definition) has explicit qualities that identify and qualify someone as Russian. At the mildest they express it as both a national reality and one that any 'real Russian' definitely should conform to. I've never heard one of them talk about a kind of larger scale collective soul that results from the individually unique souls of varying Russians. It is both the 'correct' and superior national soul and also individually. So it's not that 'The Soul' as a general concept has a nationality, I wasn't saying anything like that. I'm saying that any soul is deeper than nationality, as it's deeper than any explicitly nameable, limitable, and definable quality or categorisation, and that therefore no soul can have any nationality, and 'the Soul' as a general idea has no relationship to nationality. I'm not saying they think 'The Soul' in the whole world is Russian (an even more ridiculous idea), but they're saying that explicit national average traits can be equated with 'a soul', when a soul is so much deeper and broader a 'thing' that no idea of group identity, let alone nationality, probably even invididual identity, can be equated with it. It's to see it in shallow terms. Anything at the group or national level, especially when limited like that, and especially when framed by an idea of having to conform to it, is the opposite of 'soul' really. It's denying the infinite breadth, depth, nuance, and creativity of the Soul in order to limit and conform and correspond to a stagnant definition that comes from a place outside of it. It is a narrow rational definition, and totally not, in being far narrower and lesser than, what 'soul' is and implies. "Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men."
@@AngloSaks666 "...no idea of group identity, let alone nationality, probably even invididual identity, can be equated with it." Well then I would say we definitely have different notions of what 'soul' is, though of course I agree that soul is deeper than just nationality. I don't think soul is as 'infinitely broad' as you portray it, though I also make a distinction between soul (psyche) and spirit, and see Soul as the result of spirit 'descending' into matter. If qualities, attributes, character traits, etc. are not an expression of Soul, then I don't know what is. What other term would you use for these things? For me, everything has soul, individually and collectively. And I don't think that the larger scale collective soul simply 'results' from the individual souls, as a kind of 'national average'. Every nation demonstrates its particular soul qualities, this seems fairly obvious to me. The collective soul influences the individual soul as the individual soul comes into incarnation through that 'stream' so to speak, it is 'colored' by it. It is astrological in nature as every nation has its own chart showing its soul qualities. You participate in it by virtue of being born in a certain place, belonging to a certain group, etc. I'm not saying I agree with what these Russian nationalists say the Russian soul is exactly, just that there is such a thing.
💝🇺🇦🍀🇺🇦💪🏻💯🪖
Does this apply to the Taliban?
Taliban was anti foreign influence in Afghanistan, if that was Soviet Union, Iran, Pakistan, or US influence.
Why is the Taliban seen as bad guys if they defending their country from foreigner influence and imperialism, like Ukraine right?
No, because the Taliban is about religious identity and not national identity
@@Godfrey544 Taliban are more Afghan nationalist than any other group during the civil wars.
Every other group was “my ethnic first” “my tribe first” etc, which divided Afghanistan because foreigners were able to exploit it.
That’s why the Taliban were more popular than the Jamiat or Hezb-e Islami or whatever ever group. They keep fighting each other and innocents die.
Ukraine was the same way, West Ukraine vs East Ukraine and of course foreign powers like Russia take advantage of it and make it worse.
Afghanistan and Ukraine are both victims of the evil empire that is Russia.
Each country you mentioned is unique in character. But talibans didn’t fight the soviet union. They were kids in the 80s. Sharia itself is based on mythical imperialism. People are to believe that it was all applied by the first few ‘rightly guided’ caliphs. In truth, it was enforced in 9th century by the far right only to cause collapse. This is what the dysfunctional talibans defend at the expense of converting the afghans into a burden on other countries with main victims being Pakistan and Iran. Plenty now are also trying to flee to west. Ukraine isnt fighting to oppress and cripple its own people like that.
@@meatrealwishes and who do you think made up the Taliban, the fighters from the 1980 war? The fighters didn’t want to fight for the leaders of the Jamiat and Hezb-e Islami anymore, so they joined the Taliban.
See why do people excuse Ukraine nationalists but not the Taliban?
Ukraine nationalists were killing polish women and children, and helping Germans kill Jews within Ukraine during world war 2. They spent more time fighting Poles and Jews than fighting Germans or Russians.
This is why there’s such caution with Ukraine nationalism, they worship people who genocide and kill. So are they any different from the Taliban?
Taliban considers anything that’s not their interpretation of Sunni islam to be foreign, like Ukraine nationalists consider Poles and Jews, along with German and Russians foreign to the Ukraine state.
Ukraine government has their own definition of “their people” like the Taliban government does. Taliban won’t recognize Shia Islam, like Ukraine government won’t recognize Russian language despite both countries having a significant population of Shia and Russians.
It's striking that Germans would see themselves as "colonial" rather than the Russians, when the facts are that Russia colonized about 1,000 times more territory than the Germans ever did.
When Germans consider the period of European history from about 1918 through 1945, do they view Stalin vs Hitler, Stalinism vs Nazism, or the Holocaust vs the Holodomor as being on very different planes morally? My bet is this question will be immediately squashed by youTube algorithms.
You lost and yes they see it on different levels for several reasons which does not mean they think Stalin was a nice guy.
Very precise and interesting.
I am curious. Would a better term here be "patriotism"?
In common parlance "nationalism" implies dominance of one's country at the expense of all others, a very "for me to win everyone else must lose, we cannot win if everyone wins" mindset. In order for one to succeed, you must injure all others to the point of their failure.
"Patriotism" is much more along the lines of what you discuss here - the idea that you may haveto sacrifice for your country to succeed, but it does not require injury to others who may be uninvolved, and certainly not to friends and neighbors.
I'll have to chew on this angle of nationalism and see if I can find other examples.
It is more or less the same. All nation building has to define an inside and outside what is in is privileged against what is out. It is just a question how far you go. patriotism is just a word to sugarcoat it in the eyes of the conservatives. In the end the risk of violence and chauvinism is always there. We are good in detecting it elsewhere than in ourselves.
@@florianmeier3186 patriotism and nationalism are two very different thing
But you know whats funny about that? Nationalistd dont know the difference or there is one
Very telling
I don't get the point. Certainly an extreme nationalism is worse than patriotism, but they belong to the same family and are the enemies of universalism and liberalism. In real life you have to make compromises. If you think patriotism is just only a positive thing you are blind for history where it was always exploited to push young people into fighting and abuse their idealism. Nowadays conservatives in Europe play with the word to identify the non-patriotic and start to dehumanize them to some extend and tell something about a better past where people were willing to sacrifice and then they enter their Mercedes and escape. It is always the same old sad story.
@@florianmeier3186 patriotism is love of the land
Nothing to do with nations
You can have philipinos be ukraninan patriots because they love the land of ukraine, but are not ukranian nationalists thinking that ukranian nation reigns supreme
It seems you dont understand what patriotism is
@@Bleilock1 So no flags in the movie the patriot, no politics, no violence, no people just love and land? I guess you don't believe it yourself. And the really dirt approach of all those selfmade patriots is to blame others they don't know, they don't love etc. pp. It is so poor and so predictable.
Get better mics!
If so, why there're streets, places and monumens entitled to Bandera and his criminal fellows?
Because he is not only a murderer and fascist, but also a symbol of resistance against foreign power and who gave Ukraine time and space to create a comprehensive and reflected image of this guy? Each country has its twofolded heros and symbols and blind spots. Wartimes are not the easiest to put light into darkness. To the credit of Ukraine not everyone is admiring Bandera there and it is tricky to have sophisticated debates while rockets are thrown on your head. I guess many European countries could currently have an easier job to look into their historical basements and detect some dirt for cleanup.
@@florianmeier3186 Im sorry but what foreign power? Banderists collaborated with Nazi Germany - the only power who occupied Ukraine at that moment. There is literally nothing good about this character. He slaughtered Jews and Poles and said there is only place for Ukrainians in Ukraine and noone else. Rehabilitating this man speaks more than thousand "experts" warning us about Russian propaganda. There is no debate because people in power are doing the rehabilitation and shoving this fascist scum down peoples throats. I agree not everybody in the Ukraine has positive view of Bandera but it doesnt matter since people in power do.
@@florianmeier3186 ganz schlechter versuch, massenmörder zu rehabilitieren.
I appreciate Ukrainian fight and support it with all I can provide, nevertheless, any nationalism is just like imperialism - a thing of the past. I do see, that Ukranian intellectuals uderstand it and I welcome it.
Some time propaganda is actually telling true
For example
@@sH-ed5yf I just like checking multiple sources. And no one can blame CNN , BBC , NY Times as Russian propaganda sources: Just google "Ukraine nazi problem,"- there are no Russian sources there.
@@sH-ed5yf It's very easy to fact-check by googling "Ukraine Nazi problem". I guess You won't call CNN, BBC, NBC and so on as Russian propaganda...
Hahahaha 😆
It’s “organic” nationalism and nation as opposed to the political statist “nation” snd “nationalism” which is actually patriarchal and patriotism.
Nationalism is the consolation of the poor in spirit. Why should one be proud of an event over which one has no control - like the place, the culture of birth? The workers have no fatherland, they are the exploited ones in every country - whether in Russia, Germany, China or Ukraine. Workers of all countries, unite! Against chauvinism, exploitation and imperialism!
Nationalism is a brutal way to look for power.
I think Frau Davies makes some good points. But I'd like to add that during the cold war, germany had many marxist intellectuals who were firm believers in 'scientific socialism' and thought of russia on a path to fulfil that strange variant of enlightenment utopia: the attempt to 'better fulfil' enlightenment ideals by removing their very foundation: ('private') property and contract law. Many of these intellectuals knew next to nothing about russian life and russian history - especially about the Stalin period, as before Gorby, russian archives were closed, and Stalin had very active propagandists abroad. So during the cold war, many of these intellectuals in one way or another idealized russia and supported its goals, whether consciously or as useful idiots. I had some Univ Professors in Psychology and Political Science in the early 90s whom I would see in that category. Regarding history of Ukraine and the ukrainian experience, they knew even less than about russia - to a large part due to Stalin's propaganda efforts. Most saw Ukraine as just one 'soviet republic' and at best, associated it with the 1986 Chernobyl accident. After 1989, most of these intellectuals did not do their homework re: examination of the marxist system of ideas, theory of capitalism etc. - let alone re: history and inner workings of real socialism. So it is not so difficult for Putin to reactivate old mental patterns of perception and interpretation from the cold war, which these intellectuals only superficially put aside but never really examined more closely and critically.
I'm curious about how french people see Ukraine, as France had an even stronger socialist tradition than germany with many marxist intellectuals. I would expect similar patterns, but less of an imperial standpoint towards Poland and Ukraine (when Napoleon moved east towards Moscow, Poland was his ally as they hoped he would help them to defend themselves against Russia and Germany). Unfortunately, I don't speak french, so I can't really follow the debate there.
The azov battalion, the 'sinn fein' ('we alone') party in Ireland, Hamas in Palestine-- all of these extreme xenophobic nationalists groups are *fed by* occupation and oppression, and then once the occupation and oppression ends-- SO DOES the influence and power of such groups. They become marginal forces in a matter of decades. To say "the whole people should remain colonized and shackled because some of them are like this" is putting the wagon before the ox-- helping people get their freedom is how you FIX and UNDERMINE proto-fascist politics in a place like Ukraine today.
Azov battalion is NOT an "extreme xenophobic nationalists", and they haven't any "power" outside their profound battleground capability. To be a patriot and to be always ready to withstands to destroyers of your homeland, nation and culture does not mean to be a fascist - they doesn't pretend to any of their neighbors territory, they simply have not intention to attack any neighboring nation! Very different from Hitler or Putin!
Sinn Fein is left wing nationalist. They never said they would kill all the Ulster Scots.
There is no Azov Battalion since 2014, there is only Azov Brigade, which is now a regular unit of the army, and they purged the very limited amount of people who held some extremist views back then. But it was never an extremist or terrorist organisation, just men, now soldiers willing to defend their country. In 2014 when Ukraine was invaded, the Ukrainian army had been castrated by Russian-connected president and they literally couldn’t afford but to accept anyone willing to fight. So some questionable people also applied, and that’s the source of all the hysteria. But that’s now long past and it’s a regular unit which heroically defended Mariupol in 2022 and gave thus chance for the rest of the Ukrainian army to regroup and protect other cities. It’s frankly bad taste and incorrect to even compare them to people like Hamas. Now, if we are sincerely concerned about fascism and extremist nationalism, I strongly suggest everyone to look at Russia, Russian paramilitary units such as Wagner, Rusich etc, and in general the policies of the Russian government, which are fascist in character, and who are carrying extreme atrocities on a massive scale, all in the name of fascist national ideology.
The lands of Gaza and West Bank are historical homelands of the Israelites. If you look at the archaeological records you will find Jewish artefacts. In the World culture, you will also find evidence of that land belonging to the people of Israel. If you look at the linguistic evidence, you will see that the Jewish language belongs to the Semitic language family, so its origin is located in the Semitic areal. The Palestinian identity came into existence as a consequence and reaction to the creation of the Israel state. Until then, that land was inhabited by both Israeli and Arab peoples and it was part of the Ottoman empire. After the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, the land was up for grabs and the people of Israel rightfully claimed it.
I hope the same will happen with the Kurdish people and they will create their own state out of parts of Turkey and Syria and whatever lands they rightfully can claim.
So Hamas is fighting for the wrong cause. There is only one country that Jews can call home, while there are many countries that Arabs can call home. "From the river to the sea" means the anihilation of Israel, the only democratic country in that region, and it also means another Jewish holocaust. So Hamas is a nazi, far-right organisation. I do not understand how any proud leftist can stand with Palestine. I myself am a radical leftist and I cannot pair with a far-right organisation, like other so-called "leftists" do.
@@zasmirko100Maybe not today, but it was well covered by MSM years back as Ukraines far right movement.
Germany ?They tried to colonize Ukraine ,annecting Crimea they called Gothenland!
The reason 'right wing' parties don't do well in the Ukraine is that the mainstream parties are already right wing far beyond the alleged right wing in western Europe. I mean this is a government that carries out 'Ukrainianization' on its minority population, refuses to let education or any official be conducted in 'minority' languages even though 'Ukrainian' is not spoken at home by a majority in the whole country and hardly at all in the East and South. And that's not mentioning the multiple instances of Nazi larping we saw with Azov, Right Sector etc
She is too one sided. She does not know the topic.
She knows what she wants though,a new, institutionalised (supported by states,EU etc) grand narrative about eastern europe,and ukraine in particular that will mark a clean break with RF. Impossible if you ask me,about ukraine at least.
Wtf they are actually smart😮
(western) Ukrainian nationalism was racist and antisemitic from the beginning. It had nothing to do with NS-German influence. On the contrary: Ukrainian racism and antisemitism accelerated and radicalised German anti-Jewish policy in eastern Europe. That brand of Ukrainian racism is vivid and central today for the Ukrainian Bandera regime....
And they coted in a jewish russian speaker. Funny isnt it
@@sH-ed5yf that was the deal of the US putsch-masters - to "hide" their bringing to power their Bandera allies. The majority of the Ukrainians wanted of course peace, and voted for Selensky as he was originally a Russian speaker - and a Jew. So the Ukrainians hoped that this would safe-guard against the radicals. So still have to learn a lot about politics
@@sH-ed5yf Yeah, now go find a video of him signing SS galizien flag with a smile on his face. And streets in Kiev leading to Babi Yar named after nazi collaborators and war criminals like Pavlenko. Bandera's monuments everywhere. SBU happy to wear SS patches. Funny isn't it?
It's sad that Kyiv Independent has ignored my information about the Yeltsin Blueprint.
Well half of Germany was Russian not long ago; I am sure the Russians that moved there didn't automatically pack their bags and move back to Russia. Their alliance didn't change overnight. The protesters against Israel in America are similar in that the main instigators are from the middle eastern region who are here attending the colleges, or as immigrants. The source of unrest is not indigenous.
Trump as an immigrant? :D
I'm laughing because yes, I sometimes get the impression that foreign fingers are tapping at the Republican party, Brexiteers, Le Pen and others; but they are all playing the role of national chauvinists with a conservative and anti-immigrant bias.
You are wrong. Most Russians living in GDR left rather quickly. There is now a big Russian community in Germany, but it does not mainly consist of the former army or administrative staff, but came after.
@@florianmeier3186 Doesn't have to be the Russian army staying. You are confirming what I said. Much of the discontent about German policy against Russia comes from Russians who stayed in Germany.
@@markmarco6277 No, I said we have a big Russian Community, especially in Berlin, but they are either speak up for Ukraine or are very silent and they mostly did Not stay, but came after. Who speaks up for Russia are old German communists, some Germans who lived in Russia before and German nationalists and social democrats. WE are a complicated country, but don't have many issues with pro Kremlin Russians, but pro Kremlin Germans. GDR was Not Russian by the way. The Russians mostly separated from the population. They mostly joined in official and organized events. They knew that they were not loved by many of the ordinary people and they did not want their people being spoilt by those Nazis....
close the border
What a waste of time ....a pathetic 😮Ukrainian propaganda show
And yet you're here. Troll
@@wendel6 can't you do better..twat