Would be interesting if you covered the relatively isolated Orthodox Ethiopian Church, fighting tooth and nail against Islamic expansion as well as European(Italian) Imperialism. They even invaded Yemen at one point to help Byzanitum fight a rogue Jewish kingdom. Their relationship to Ancient civilizations as well as to modern pan Africanist groups such as the Rastas makes it even more unique.
From Balkans to Vladivostok is Orthodox Catholic Church,commonly called in the anglosphere Eastern Orthodox, meanwhile the Ethiopians are Oriental Orthodox,like the armenians on what i remember.
in the middle ages here in italy we were thinking about being like ancient rome and ,in genua and venice, how to establish trading outposts in greece and forcing unequal treaties with the byzantines.
@@marcobonesi6794 that Is more late medieval period he's talking about the communal times. Were Barbarossa came to conquer as Serse did in Greece and Italy was, whit it's many comunes governaments, one of the most democratic places in the know world. Then the renassance came and It was all China warlords time trying to unite Italy whit brutal force and general expansion outwards.
@@thereita1052 nah. It was always brutal warlord style fighting until the spanish conquest of most of the peninsula in the 16th century and then the unification in the 19th century. In fact during the middle ages,before of the rise of the "signoria" system in the 14th century, it was a clusterfuck of city against city.
@@marcobonesi6794 It was Indeed a battle royale but I'd say thanks to the use of mercenarys and the signoria system It was more brutal than ever. The instability brought constant wars and mercenaries were much brutal in pillaging citys. Also the signoria was a much brutal governament in general you can read "il principe" of Machiavelli to understand how the pepole were just a mere tool to exploit. The communal sistem at least was stable and lasted for much of the early medival times (At least stable compared to the signoria) and was accountable to the voice of the pesantry and lower class Who voted and policed the governament. And onestly greek city states fought a lot too.
Just a quick correction: Armenia and Georgia are both Orthodox nations. Georgia is solidly Eastern Orthodox, like the Russians. However, the Armenians are Armenian Apostolic, who are technically a seperate sect of Orthodoxy. However, this is largely because of a theological technicality in the 5th century, and is not really seen as a major issue by the vast majority of Orthodox I know, including myself.
@Noah Pritchett that is the common think about protestants and Orthodocs,meanwhile the common thing between catholics and Orthodocs Is the love and respect for Theodokos.
It is seen as a major issue, I don't know where you got that from, vast majority?! It's just ascetism and monasticism ideas that more or less unify these two churches, Orthodox Christians are closer to Roman Catholics in terms of doctrine than Armenian apostolic. They are non-Chalcedonians while Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism accept Chalcedon assembly resolutions.
Why is it that you never include Cyprus in your orthodox maps, but you include it in your Islamic maps? The island was 80% Orthodox before 1974 and still is a majority Orthodox today.
Highly recommend Timothy Ware's "The Orthodox Church" to any interested in Eastern Orthodoxy. Ware is an Englishman who converted to Orthodoxy and has become a Metropolitan (type of bishop). It's very readable for uninitiated Americans, and it gives a lot of this history (and of course some of the theology that undergirds it) in more detail.
Also, come and see, there are a lot of Orthodox churches throughout the world, many use the local language and will be happy to answer any questions you may have.
@@PhoebeK absolutely! I recommended Wares book for the exposition, but must say nothing is quite like directly experiencing the liturgy. I have never lived particularly close to an Orthodox church, but was surprised to recently learn a friend of mine in Evansville IN is in the process of converting to Orthodoxy from Roman Catholicism. Orthodoxy isn't just for ethnic enclaves!
@Prasanth Thomas true, but the 2015 edition I read still has "Timothy Ware" on the cover--was trying to make it as easy as possible for people new to orthodoxy to find!
Orthodox, together with Latin America is marginally part of the West, having both descended from the classical West. All harkens backs to the Indo-Europeans (particularly the centum branch) being the ones who developed the Western world. This is why white people are naturally able to unite themselves so easily, with most being part of the Indo-European macro-race all in a relatively same area and take on the world.
For those interested Lest Darkness Fall/Aphotheosis of Martin Padway An Atheist Historian from 1938 ends up in 535 Italy and changes history for the better Hindu-Arabic Numerals, Brandy, Printing Press, Paper plus the lessening of slavery is done within a few years He is able to rebirth the Western Roman Empire as a more secular/progressive/industrialized nation Eastern Roman Empire losses territory to the west but devours Persia. Emperor Justinian lives 20 years past his historical death thanks to modern medicine Eventually Humanity has a spacefaring, immortal, time-traveling Atheist Star Trek civilization
@@christiandauz3742 well this scenario could never ever happen If said atheist did the time travel what would happen is either he would get either locked or even killed and he would not be able to change history în the direction you mentioned even If he wasn,t killed
@@christiandauz3742 nope realistically he would still fail even here besides the distillation of alcohol as we know today was invented in 800s in middle east
An interesting fact is that the western Slavs almost became orthodox. In the 9th century a the duke of Moravia invited greek missionaries to stop the growing HRE influence. They actually developed cyrillic, the alphabet that most of the slavic orthodox nations use today. Anyway the duke was eventually overthrown by Svatopluk. This guy was actually pretty competent and expanded Great Moravia and pushed out the german influence. One of the things he did is that he exiled the orthodox archbishop, because he saw him as having too much influence and also an ally of the previous duke(He also exiled all of his scholars). They then moved to neighboring orthodox states in the Balkans and Russia, bringing the alphabet with them. With this, the catholic church returned to Moravia and stayed there. After the death of Svatopluk there was a power struggle between his sons, right in time when the Hungarians arrived and conquered the territory. After that, the Hungarians adopted the dominant religion, so became Catholic. If it weren't for Svatopluk, it is very possible, that we could've seen European civilizations, divided exactly by the lines of the Iron Curtain.
Yeah the western Slavic(Poland Czech, Slovak, and Croatia) are in this in-between area of western and Eastern European culture. Poland while it is culture similar to other Slavic countries, however it been highly by Germanic culture(granted some of it was because of conquest).
To be more precise the missionary was Saint Methodius, actually he was so competent that the Pope later appointed him as Bishop of Moravia (the schism hadn't happened yet), but Svatopluk made him prisoner and the Frankish priest Witching was made the Bishop and used the Latin Liturgy, also at the time it wasn't the Cyrillic alphabet that was made for the Moravian liturgy but the Glagolitc.
Orthodox, together with Latin America is marginally part of the West, having both descended from the classical West. All harkens backs to the Indo-Europeans (particularly the centum branch) being the ones who developed the Western world. This is why white people are naturally able to unite themselves so easily, with most being part of the Indo-European macro-race all in a relatively same area and take on the world.
@@GL-iv4rw don’t compare orthodox with latin america, it is not at all the same. Orthodox is a culture of itself and isn’t descended from westerners at all like latin america.
As a Bulgarian Orthodox person I`m so happy to finally watch this. I though I would have to wait months to see it. Orthodox civilization is puzzling and complex to understand for us also. I could only imagine what it looks like to a foreigner.
Orthodoxy is not difficult to understand. It is the most straightforward system. The problem is that we have been on the losing side since the 10th century. Moreover, I would call it the Orthodox Faith rather than civilization. I am Albanian Orthodox but I acknowledge that Orthodoxy is today relevant mostly by the contributions of the Slavs. I disagree with this guy's mindframe. He is a liberal or enlightened guy. This is the impression I get. And one thing that I have become entirely assured this year is that democracy is bad.
Just a fun fact we have turkish eastern orthodox community in turkey not too big however a small minority we also have turkish orthodox church as well.
I think you mostly skip the importance of the Bulgarian Empire, and its conversation to orthodox Christianity. They contributed a LOT to the Eastern World and the Slavs migrating in with the invention of the Cyrillic Alphabet, and giving autonomy to the slavs in its empires.
@@The_Custos balkans are often forgotten because today they're.. honestly very small insignificant nations. its easy to forget that hungary, bulgaria, serbia etc. all had large empires when they're the poorest and smallest and oldest parts of Europe today. Though they're also among the tallest and strongest on average Euros. The dinaric blood still runs deep.
A neat summary, and I agree with most of it, but once again there are couple of mistakes, or questionable statements presented as fact. It's frustrating when people confidently say incorrect things about your own part of the world. 1. Georgia is a full member of the communion of Eastern Orthodox Churches, and always has been, doctrinally, politically, etc. Unlike Armenia, which adopted Christianity long before Rome did and possesses entirely it's own traditions and origins. 2. Constantine did *not* make Christianity the 'official religion' of the Roman Empire, he simply ended their persecution and took a personal interest in the religion. But Constantine continued the Imperial cult at Rome, did nothing to act against pagans in the Empire (with the big exception of Jerusalum), and seems to have associated Christianity with his own family-cult of Sol Invictus. 3. Christian sects in the early Byzantine Empire did largely adhere to ethnic lines, but Nestorians were a tiny minority, the main non-Chalcedonian (Melkite) sect was and is Monophysite (Copts & Syriacs). Monophysites were at the doctrinal opposite extreme from Nestorians (Melkites are in the middle), and actually initiated the persecution of Nestorians in the first place. Nestorians were overwhelmingly found east of the Byzantine frontiers, in Persia and Central Asia (they even reached Mongolia and gave them their alphabet). 4. "socialist measures" lol. People who regularly watch your channel know what you're implying (centralised bureaucratisation of the economy) but come on, you *know* how misleading describing one of the most hierachical and unequal economic systems on earth as 'socialism' sounds. 5. No major Slavic merchant class *ever*? I think the Republic of Novogorod would be a pretty exception, certainly Jews and Armenians practically didn't exist in Russia then. 6. Lingual Map. Armenian isn't a Caucasian language, it has no connection to Georgian. 7. Attributing Russia's government style to the Mongols, or discussing the conquest generally, is *hardly* 'very taboo' in Russia, and never has been. Actually there are dozens of old sayings, books, films, and even popular songs in Russia about this, too the point its practically a cliche. 8. Belarus/Ukraine weren't seized by a 'Western Christian' Lithuania, when Lithuania conquered these regions it was still an entirely pagan society. Poland also had nothing to do with these wars at this time, it came to share these East Slavic lands much later, with the union. 9. Most Russian soil is actually fairly poor, the ultra-fertile 'black soil' region is mainly found in Ukraine, Tatarstan and the Caspian-steppe, both regions outside of Muscovite control for much of its history. Actually, America has more prime arable land than any other nation, 99% of which *was never even used before* European colonists arrived. 10. Again with the American jingoism, of course the geography was easy to 'adapt' to when your opponents were hunter-gatherer tribes and you had railroads. Nearly all Russia goes *under -30* (imagine coping with this in pre-industrial times) *every year*. The USSR took the overwhelming brunt of WWII, whilst not a single American civilian in America was ever killed, gee, I wonder why USA won the Cold War.. Ridiculous comparison. 11. Communist map. Comments for missing? Well, Indonesia killed about 500'000 people to squash their socialist movement. Also the PKK in Turkey, avowedly Communist but I guess it's Kurdish separatism in practice. Also the MEK and Republic of Mahabad in Iran. And somehow Mongolia is missing.
4. Read (or listen to) the essay “State Socialism and Anarchism: How Far They Agree, and Wherein They Differ” by Benjamin Tucker. You and everyone else I’ve seen criticizing Whatif don’t understand socialism.
the vast majority of nations indigenous to North America were not hunter-gatherer tribes, the image of them as hunter-gatherer tribes is really due to their population being devastated by the combination of settler aggression and introduced diseases, but your point still stands
This is so interesting, ever since you showed that you were going to cover this topic I was like: "What new thing am I going to learn here?" Your channel really is an inspiration @Whatifalthist and although my channel is moving away from Alternative History, my videos will never hold a candle to yours! Keep up the excellent work and stay blessed!
Orthodox, together with Latin America is marginally part of the West, having both descended from the classical West. All harkens backs to the Indo-Europeans (particularly the centum branch) being the ones who developed the Western world. This is why white people are naturally able to unite themselves so easily, with most being part of the Indo-European macro-race all in a relatively same area and take on the world.
@@GL-iv4rw I would separate Latin America from North America. Latin America culturally is very different. Not to sure on orthodox but I agree with Whatifalthist on Latin America.
@@hadi8699 the modern West, Latin America and Orthodox are like sister worlds, this is why they get along so well. All was developed by the centum branch of the Indo-Europeans. The Western world (lead by USA) all have a common enemy, the Eastern world lead by China.
Dod it help you understand our modern Greek identity and legacy better? To be honest I found the video a bit overwhelming, maybe I haven't been as knowledgeable to swallow it easier despite I have been interested in history since forever.
@@bigboineptune9567 this channel has radicalized me into believing societies need a powerful narrative (religion, ideology, whatever it can make) that gives them the drive to succeed and keep moving forward under pressure. Look at the west today - a military humiliation and everyone immediately looses all hope, these people have no story in their minds they wish to fulfill. I have yet to find a way to integrate this belief into the rest of my opinions.
There's a great example in the orthodox civilisation of merchant elites taking control: The Merchant Republic of Novgorod. It became a massive Center of culture and trade that was projected towards the Baltic Sea.
Yeah! That's my boy! Neo-Novgorodstvo, that's a future for Russia! Btw I visited Novgorod a few years ago. It's magnificent, and it has it's own estetics. Now, being more fond of some ideals of republicanism and, I guess, social-democracy if a kind, I even want to create a group featuring merge of this elements.
@@Jayako12 it was burning down on a regular basis, because it was wooden. And it's demise is a result if Ivan 3 deeds, much earlier, than Peterburg even was imaginated.
@@tyryonolofing3405 I still think the Vladimir Land is like the land of the "royal Scythians" of Russia, the rightful ruler. Here Bogolyubsky saw a vision of the Mother of God, and regiments flocked here to the Battle of Kulikovo. Hence the impulse of power, which already in the 12th century burned Kiev as an old place of squabbles, and an attempt to establish dominance. Novgorod for centuries was dependent on this place, in the time of the Mongols in a large sense, even moral. I think these relations have a deeper foundation than all "liberalisms", "autocracies". It's something elusive
As a member of the Orthodox community I'm happy to see a RUclipsr making this type of video. I have always wanted to learn more about the fate and its history.
Idea: do Native American civilizations before European contact and how they changed in the process. In particular, I’m interested how advanced they really were compared to Europe. It’s hard to get a clear answer today due to biases on both sides.
They had interesting systems. If given the right weapons for defense, they would have developed sophisticated societies IMO. Similar to Japan or East Indies countries
Hope he mentions the Latin American(excluding the Inca, Mayan, and Astecs cause they are pretty popular). Especially the Brazilian tribes, since I'm Brazilian.
I’d love to see a Native American civilization video, especially one that goes up to the present day. To often they are ignored in history, and truthfully even more so in the present.
yo russian here, actually expected more from you (knowing how deeply goes your research) tho it is hard since historical/social science wasn't doing much during communist regime to explore our history thorouly. anyway it is nice to witness your culture being explained on such a great channel. peace!
@@sonicnarutoTDpg Which have nothing to do with the religion and have long since died out, maybe you should worry about the communists/socialists emerging in your countries. 🤔
This channel is stupid american bullshit, if you are amazed you know nothing about history Also Russia is literally Third Rome, as someone already mentioned
The main difference în orthodox civilisations is that, while they all are based on rural people, their lives and troubles, along with their movement to the city, in the Balkans it was more of a fight of the people against the foreign powers and their influence, corrupting their institutions For the russians, their institutions became foreign and started to fight to enslave their own people, using themselves of the old facade of religious grace that enveloped the emperor. The Balkans were far more liberal(when not exploited by the ottomans), and often driven by bodies of smaller nobles leading peasants, or, in the best of times, for states like those in România or Serbia, by a ruler that managed to mobilize the church, the nobles and peasants under themselves
Wow, i had no idea Serbia had history so cool! Serbia and Romania sound like amazing countries with deep histories, more than many other European civilizations.
@@nicklibby3784 idk if you're ironical or not, but in case you are serious, yes, Serbia and Romania do în fact, both have quite some history. I personally would say that România has a longer one, but I might not be the best source, you can go search for yourself, the balkans are full of history just as much, if not more than maybe any other place in Europe
As a catechumen to the Orthodox church, I really appreciate the lengths that you went through to highlight this very misunderstood culture. I might have some slight differences in opinion on one thing or another, but so what...overall a bang up job!
One problem I'm seeing with this video is that even though you've included Armenias Apostolic Church in "Orthodox Civilization" even though they are technically oriental orthodox (very similar to eastern orthodox), you have not included similar oriental churches I.e. the Coptic and Ethiopian churches. These are very interesting and ancient parts of the orthodox and thereby Christian world that you have neglected to include.
@Norman This isn't a video about how interconnected the Orthodox world was. This is a video on the orthodox world itself. It's like if you made a video on economically important parts of the U.S. and neglected New York and Florida.
This is speculation, and I can’t speak for the Ethiopian church, but the Coptic church of Egypt played little to no role in the development of Egyptian civilization since the Arab conquests. Of course, there were fringe sizable minorities which had clung onto Christianity over the centuries, but on a civilizational scale, It meant very little.
@@monarchblue4280 naaah ... 1st of all ur comparison is lacking cuz New York and Florida are like huuuge parts of the whole thing and African Orthodoxy is not 2. Egypt has been Islam dominated for most of its time (See ottomans in this Vid and even if they were not there was only a minority of Christians and even smaller numberso of othodox ppl) // Same with Ethiopia only 44% are orthodox there 3. African/ Arabian civilisation is (he alluded to it in the vid) very clan and culture based so they would be waaaay different even if they were a bigger part of the whole civ
Despite some theological similarities, I think it's a huge stretch to say that Ethiopia and Russia are part of the same civilization. Ethiopia is sort of the center of its own, smaller civilization.
Orthodox cultures by far were hit the worst of every christian civilization you guys are losing so much land to Muslim invasion pretty depressing not gonna lie
The problem with this “Civilizations” concept is that they are even more vague than nations. For example, Russia isn’t considered European mostly because of USSR formed and cut off the ends with the rest of the Europe and then US tried to unite Western Europe and to finally be a respected nation among other major European powers. Before WWI Russia would be considered as much or even more European than American due to a fact that America was too much about economy instead of culture and because it was very internal and isolationist. And yes, I know Western doesn’t = European. But that’s the point. Some minor changes in history and voila: Modern Southern Europe is now also considered as a unique civilization. They are very connected to Romans and Greeks, they have Catholicism instead of Protestantism which is actually closer to Orthodoxy in many ways than to Protestantism, they have unique and different climate zone etc. Edit: Here are some thoughts about the video. 1. The ruling class that doesn't eat the civilization is not entirely true. Soviet elite's descendants are in many cases already eaten Russia, which lead to 2. No, there was no wide Communist support among peasants even after they seized power. Only poor peasants of northern Russia supported them. And even they would prefer another political group, which was socialist but non-marxist and ethnocentric, namely, SRs. 3. Question: if you look on the faces of Russian aristocracy in 19 century do you see that influence of wide inter-marriages with Mongols? No. That's because there is no one. There is no mongolic influence on aristocracy, because Mongols are far away. But there is relatively large turkic influence since they are Russia's eastern neighbors. And even this influence is diminished by population pressure of core-ethnos. 4. Bad peasants-elites relations have a long story with more dark and more light ages and many reasons. It is also well-explained by thinking about Russian institutions as an older version of European. For example, German peasants lived in pretty harsh conditions too. In fact, they lived badly even in 18 century. And the worst time for Russian peasants was during the rule of Catherine II because she purposefully changed some laws, which means she thought what she's been doing is okay. And she was originally german princess. I don't think this is a coincidence. Edit 2: I don' want my critique to make me seem that I dislike video, it is still very good and sharp. For example, parts about colonization of Southern Ukraine as more important than Siberia and Russia before Revolution developing rapidly and many other parts are good and correlate with what I know. Edit 3: If a civilization is something that linked with patterns, here is a pattern to you: there are cycles of more liberal and conservative rulers (or times, without link to persons) since early 19 century. For example, Alexander I almost gave Russia constitution, Nicolas I was conservative, then Alexander II came, but then he was killed and Alexander III started counter-reforms. It was broken a bit when Nicolas II wasn't liberal by his own desire. I think it would be better if he was liberal by desire (in such case reforms would be better) or if he was fully conservative (Revolution wouldn't happen). Anyway, he was too weak for such a hard time. In modern Russia this cycles are more liberal Yeltzin, early Putin and Medvedev, then more conservative anti-West Putin. So there is probably a high chance for more friendly Russia in decade or two I guess.
@UCA_LCGVdRz4lfTcsMShbtrw Russia? Progressive in the 18th and the 19th century? How, if I may ask? During the latter era, the Tsars started implementing Russification policies to homogenize the Empire culturally and ethnically. And on top of this, the Tsars never in their tenure as rulers ever ceded power to the people for their empire to be considered “progressive.” Say for the Duma which was forced in the wake of being humiliated by an Asian power.
@@TheWazzoGames well yes, but this Duma worked pretty well and it was the plot of the Duma that led to the abdication of Nicholas II, had they been more competent they could have made Russia a republic quite easily given the low popularity of the Tsar
It comes to who you ask, i only know it for germany (especially for the east), no matter who you ask, almost everyone will tell you, russia is european.
Civilization should be considered as something which surrounds a core identity shared between its people, regardless of the differences within. Even if Catholics and Protestants are different religions, each shares a similar underlying mentality and approach to the world. But yes, it is a complex subject.
There was never a Byzantine Empire. It was the Roman Empire and it lasted from 27 BC with Augustus Caesar to about 1453 AD with Constantine XI. Namely, 1500 years of continuous statehood. Constantinople or New Rome as it was named officially was the only nominal capital of the Roman Empire after the other western emperor was deposed by Odoacer in 476 A.D.
@@ΒασιλείατῶνῬωμαῖων "Byzantium" and "Byzantine Empire" sounds cool AF tho. Aesthetically it makes sense to talk about it that way instead of "Roman Empire".
Í was born Orthodox, and took it philosophically very serious fór á long time. One of the best decisions of my life was giving up Orthodoxy and Christianity in general. Please reconsider, good sir.
@@lawrencerose256 I mean, there's so many full of shit protestants converting to orthodoxy and bringing their self righteous holier than thou point of view into leadership positions.
@@lawrencerose256 Christianity has many components: clergy, ritual, myth, moral code, philosophy - in order of importance, from superficial to essential. I will tell you what I feel and think about each of these. The Romanian Orthodox Church is very corrupt. High-ranking prelates are notorious for their wealth and ostentation. Of course, there are great priests everywhere, but the institution as a whole is rather doubtful. And it's not just in Romania - look at the Russian Orthodox Church and how it readily allies with Putin, instead of denouncing his fratricidal madness. Christian rituals are beautiful, and I've been appreciating them more and more. I enjoy visiting churches and listening to sacred chants of all denominations (Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran). Easter is the most sacred and beautiful time of the year for me. Yet these are only symbols, and they are nothing without the essence behind them. Christian myth is just that to me. I have not taken the story of the flood or of Jesus' resurrection literally, ever since I was a schoolboy. They were always just stories, useful for expressing the moral code and the philosophical outlook of the religion. And so we come to the important stuff. I am split about Christian morality. On one hand, I have a poor opinion about the distinctly secondary role ascribed to women - shown as companions to men, who are the primary actors; also, about the strong opposition to homosexuality. Additionally, there's the contradiction of YHWH being shown as merciful and loving, but acting cruelly to humans and even to his own son, incarnated. On the other hand, I truly appreciate the teachings of Jesus. Compassion is one of the most important lessons we must learn, it is invaluable for building a healthy society. Lastly, the Christian Cosmos doesn't stand up to logic or to modern scientific fact. There is no trace of evidence for anything resembling the soul. The notions of an all-powerful or an all-knowing being create logical paradoxes. And if these aren't true, then the very essence of Christian faith (and of many other faiths, I might add) is gone. Giving up on Christianity helped me clear out internal contradiction and guilt, and helped me open my mind and learn new things. But I won't deny that Jesus and Koukouzelis are awesome :)
I think you could've covered the Bulgarians more as they were quite influential at the time, at their golden age being the first Slavic cultural hub and being responsible for spreading Orthodoxy to a lot of Slavs and the Cyrillic Alphabet, the successes of leaders like Boris I and Simeon The Great shouldn't really be ignored
30:00 Gdp per capita (nominal),2021 according to IMF Hungary: 18,075$ Poland: 16,930$ Romania: 14,968$ Ukraine: 3,984$ Putting Romania in the same boat with Ukraine is a bit disingenious I know that Romanians usually talk bad about their country but it must be understand that we are the kind of people that tend to see the glass half-empty
I would make an arguement that commies fucked up all the soviet republics. Even the baltic ones got horrible suicide rate from ussr, and they got the best deal.
@@fgkuv5232 Who fuck who? Baltics grow under USSR. After indepentence they dying off 30 years non stop. And after all of that you still have the people...
@Frigidlava yep, BEFORE ww2. WW2 hits Baltics harder. Much harder. I can agree that WarPact trade politics was not the best, but that help to rebild economics of mostly annigilated contries and make them grow. You cant look, for example, on nowdays Ukrain and say, that all problems that this country have Now, after 30 years of capitalism, 30 years of stealing, selling off all that they have of UkrSSR, making corrupt deals with West, lost of Crimea and civil war - look guys, their economy suck, haha, commi-commi hur-dur.
11:55 i am guessing you just made a mapping mistake, but putting the georgian church under thr Armenian can be considered pretty offensive. There are some similarities but both operate under seperate doctrines and even branches of orthodoxy with georgian being more alike byzantine with armenian going more or less its own way
Orthodox, together with Latin America is marginally part of the West, having both descended from the classical West. All harkens backs to the Indo-Europeans (particularly the centum branch) being the ones who developed the Western world. This is why white people are naturally able to unite themselves so easily, with most being part of the Indo-European macro-race all in a relatively same area and take on the world.
@@GL-iv4rw The ability of people to co-exist includes all races, the problem stems in the ability to find any reason to hate one another. Putting things like race, ethnic background as a reason for most things is pretty narrow minded. if people wanted to unite themselves it would take breaking communication barriers, settling major cultural clashes (norse human sacrifice vs christian all life matters, a religious example but you get the point) and a bit of open mindness which by a bit i mean not branding an entire group of people by one's actions. Anyway it's not ethnic background that unites people Here in the UK we are pretty united and ethnically diverse, using race, ethnicity for anything outside medicine (there are biological differences and they shouldn't be ignored, black people have more melanin and are less likely to get skin cancer) and other niche occasions, is looking at the world in a dumb way, which only encourages other people to do the same and make poor decisions. If you view race as a reason to love someone, someone will view race as a reason to hate someone because you made race a reason to do anything. Naturally speaking, nature sucks, if you like the idea of being an animal and having to kill to survive, letting the weak die and so on, good for you but i don't. The comment was talking about a religious divide which had nothing to do with ethnicity and race so your reply wasn't only malicious for afore-mentioned reasons, it was literally uncalled for.
@@whitefox8376 Theres a limit to the level of difference you can tolerate, until you can find a higher common denominator. Ethnics in the UK are still white, are still Indo-Europeans and still part of the Western civilization - hallmark of democracy. Easterners such as China are much too different for you to co-exist with, you guys are just not ready to reconcile with such vast difference of a world. Them being yellow, Sino-Tibetans and part of the Eastern civilization - hallmark of meritocracy. Total polar opposite
I just love how the map at 22:15 is describing how countries conquered by the mongols inherited authoritarianism, and the only one that isn’t included in this rule is mongolia
They didn't inherit autocracy as Mongol Empire was not an autocratic society itself (they had khan elections), on the contrary the autocracy was an answer to the nomadic threat in order to consolidate all the resources of the state to confront Mongols. Moreover, autocracy has more to do with the orthodoxy, where the Church was almost always loyal to the government and demanded the same from the people, so Mongolian invasion just proved this concept true in the eyes of our leaders but wasn't a focal point.
"It's all because of the Mongols" misses the fact just how rare were actual direct interactions between the conquered populace and the actual nomadic invaders. The same applied to Muscovy. The idea of some Mongol slave driver whipping authoritarianism into the sore back of a Ruthenian laborer is a myth.
@5:42, The question of "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" was referenced by Thomas Aquinas when he was criticizing the traditional Medieval Scholasticism found in authors such as Duns Scotus, but there is no evidence that anyone in the Eastern Roman Empire or Western Europe ever actually extensively explored such a topic. Aquinas raised the question ironically to criticize the Scholastics' academic methods.
Its because his research is poor and more focused on glorifying northern European protestant culture as the "objectively superior" culture. He even went on a tirade to rationalize how the top down communist state capitalism of China actually not socialism because he knows that the clear reality of their economy rising to eclipse the free-trade western economic model doesn't actually fit in his very narrow world view.
@@TheEvolver311 How else should you view a culture that has literally a globe spanning reach? Orthodoxy has certainly showed its staying power, and is formidable... But to pretend it is on an equal footing with the British and American empires requires quite a stretch of the imagination.
What a great birthday gift :) Don't spoil us too much XD A merry Christmas to you Rudyard. Keep up the good work and keep living that awesome life of yours👍
Orthodox, together with Latin America is marginally part of the West, having both descended from the classical West. All harkens backs to the Indo-Europeans (particularly the centum branch) being the ones who developed the Western world. This is why white people are naturally able to unite themselves so easily, with most being part of the Indo-European macro-race all in a relatively same area and take on the world.
Orthodox, together with Latin America is marginally part of the West, having both descended from the classical West. All harkens backs to the Indo-Europeans (particularly the centum branch) being the ones who developed the Western world. This is why white people are naturally able to unite themselves so easily, with most being part of the Indo-European macro-race all in a relatively same area and take on the world.
@@reecev2087 its naturally easier for white ppl to reconcile themselves due to most having the same Indo-European root, from the same continent and solely developed Western civilization. Unlike Asia which is much more diverse. This is why whites are the dominant race. Future historians will look back at modern history and rename it the 'Western era' or the 'period of the West' or the 'White/European age' while their time period will become the new modern history.
Orthodox, together with Latin America is marginally part of the West, having both descended from the classical West. All harkens backs to the Indo-Europeans (particularly the centum branch) being the ones who developed the Western world. This is why white people are naturally able to unite themselves so easily, with most being part of the Indo-European macro-race all in a relatively same area and take on the world.
You've mentioned in passing in several videos now the Catholic Church banning marrying cousins in the Middle Ages, and how that affected society and European Civilization. I am both a Catholic and a college history major, so this doubly interests me. Could you either go into it more in depth at some point, or point me to some sources to research further? Thanks! and keep up the great work!
5:37 The West was able to get a lot of knowledge about the Greek and Roman classics from Muslims during the Crusades, its just that the Muslims got their knowledge from trade and as part of peace treaties with the Byzantine Empire. The West also got a lot of knowledge directly from trade with the Byzantines, or from Byzantine scholars fleeing the Byzantium for the West as the Empire weakened. Both statements are true. There isn't any contradiction. The Arab world also got much of their knowledge from Syriac language texts written by Oriental Orthodox Christians and Christians of the Church of the East, both living and writing within the Arab empire.
One of the reasons why it didn't take long for Arabs to capture Syria, Egypt and other Eastern Roman lands inhabited by Miaphysite Christians is because of just how much Constantinople despised and persecuted them while they were within its reach. Ironically, that's also how a thousand years later the Reformation survived in Hungary while it was eradicated by the Habsburgs in Bohemia-because most of Hungary was at this point ruled by the Ottomans who didn't care one bit about Christian sectarian divisions.
You have to take in consideration that Russia suffered the most from the two world wars... they also had two revolutions in the 20th centary and also catastrophic market economy transition in the 90s. Considering all of this... they still remaind a country with 5th economy in terms of PPP and very high human developent index, and also 2nd most powerful army and very lowe debt. Now compare this to the "civilized" catholic world of America and Southern Europe
That’s very funny because the Romans used to say the Greeks were blabber mouths who think too much also. It seems the Greeks got this reaction from many peoples. Lol
broski, I've watched your channel grow and grow and I've seen your content develop into one of my personal favorite channels on youtube. keep it up my man
I'd be interested in future videos on the Byzantines, you talked about several interesting topics that could be future videos from religion to culture. The part about the Balkans developing into a country like France seems like an interesting alternate history too.
Mountainous regions in the center of a map rarely develop in their own separate states. Imagine if Alps, Pyrenees or Caucasus united as a single entity. Though I might be missing something here. If you have any counterexamples I'd be glad if you showed them to me.
Orthodox, together with Latin America is marginally part of the West, having both descended from the classical West. All harkens backs to the Indo-Europeans (particularly the centum branch) being the ones who developed the Western world. This is why white people are naturally able to unite themselves so easily, with most being part of the Indo-European macro-race all in a relatively same area and take on the world.
That was some pretty dubious speculation, France had nearly a quarter of Europe's population at points, I doubt the Balkans with it's rugged geography would ever produce a long-term state. I mean SW slavs even all speak the same language and look at their unity. Toynbee did write in "A Study of History" that Orthodox civilisation dealt a mortal blow to itself in the Byzantine-Bulgar wars, perhaps there's something to that. Also, do you want to imagine a world of 60 million Albanians?
the byzantines did have the largest and most populated cities during the early medieval ages and the bulgarian empire was medieval hub to slavic culture you can't say a super power can't come out atleast one of those 2
Orthodox, together with Latin America is marginally part of the West, having both descended from the classical West. All harkens backs to the Indo-Europeans (particularly the centum branch) being the ones who developed the Western world. This is why white people are naturally able to unite themselves so easily, with most being part of the Indo-European macro-race all in a relatively same area and take on the world.
You keep missing the 25 million Orthodox Copts in Egypt. And your old maps ignore the north African Orthodox church as the majority. Also in Lebanon Syria Palestine had some majorities too
9:13 thank you for this point. Those who have read Eastern Roman and Byzantine history in depth know that the Romans of the East face existential crisis after crisis in late antiquity and the middle ages year after year.
@@guhr9007 right now Africa is doing better than the decolonization period, and arguably for the natives in places such as Congo and Kenya, better than the colonization period. I'm not as educated on Latin America though.
As it stands now, Orthodox civilization is the weakest of the major civilizations (outside of nukes), but it's perk is that Orthodoxy is growing rapidly in the west, and religiousity is seeing a rebound growth in the east. Orthodox society is more immune to decadence than any of the other civilizations so when the similar demographic collapses caused by decadence hit all other civilizations simultaneously, the Orthodox civilization will possibly be seeing a birth rate recovery. Also, global warming is going to disproportionally benefit Russia with expansion of vast agricultural lands, ice free ports along the arctic, and Russia's long history of being effectively land locked will end.
Eventually I’d like a video about how to make a civilisation. Break down all the elements and what certain features cause and what happens when combined with others.
@@gustavoritter7321 kinda, but if you subtract non-muscovite people and take only European part, which is also largely exaggerated, then you see that it's even less then half population
@@innosam123 Exactly, subtracting non-Muscovites would be like subtracting non-Anglo Saxons from the US, the country would just fall apart and it wouldn't be the same thing.
Eastern Orthodoxy wasn't entirely opposed to classical philosophy. It holds Socrates, Plato and Aristotle to a very high regard, especially compared to other philosophical schools of thought and that's mostly because orthodox theology was greatly influenced by their ideas since the early church fathers had studied under schools that followed their way of thinking. It opposed philosophies before and after "the great Hellenes", with neoplatonism as their most hated enemy.
Having lived in Russia for 5 years and having a wife from there I'd like to add a couple things. The point you make about the government and church working together is spot on, in fact if I remember correctly the two headed eagle of the Byzantine and later Russian Empires is actually representative of this, one head for the state, the other for the church. Also while the modern era might not be best for them, the one thing I notice though about all the ordinary Russians I met there is they all have a strong sense of identity and patriotism, even if they despise the corruption and incompetence of their leaders they are all proud to be Russian and highly defensive of this. They are a people proud of their past, but they lack faith and belief in their system and future. Many want families but lack the means for it, hence the low birthrates, and the government seems unable to raise living standards to allow family formation/expansion. In Russia the saying goes that the price of everything rises, but wages stay the same. This is likely due to the fact that government and internal stability is reliant on the goodwill of the oligarchs who in exchange for near monopolies, either due to being given state-owned firms or horrifying amounts of red tape that prevents competitions, support the state. This drives down efficiency and productivity that are needed to raise living standards, so Russia is caught in an economic rut. Breaking the Oligarchs' power would seem to be the obvious solution, until you realize they'll leave, take their money with them, and leave Russia without capital to develop and throw the country back into economic turmoil. So it's a conundrum, how to fix the modern Orthodox Civilization. I don't know, the only thing I can think of is hope the next generation is raised to be honorable. Perhaps they can fix it.
Well, Russia is Russia. USA's neighbors want to emulate USA, while Russia's neighborhood wants to be anything except Russia. Russia is basically Moscow's colony. The average wage in Moscow is somewhere near 1500 USD, while the rest of Russia lives with wages near 200 300 USD.
@@vyktorehon5995 monthly. The poorest European citizens ( by European I mean EU) has the purchasing power of an average Russian, but the reality is worse, since the mathematics are being distorted by Moscow's wages. Russians are nice people, but Russian elites are acting like they're serf owners. Use Google Streets, navigate in Moscow, center and periferies, and then choose another city. Also, keep in mind that Russia is the richest country when it comes to resources and that Russians are smart and hard working people, yet they live like...
I've been listening to the "History of Byzantium podcast" and hearing you say things that happen in the Narrative or are said in the end of the century episodes is really satisfying.
Orthodox, together with Latin America is marginally part of the West, having both descended from the classical West. All harkens backs to the Indo-Europeans (particularly the centum branch) being the ones who developed the Western world. This is why white people are naturally able to unite themselves so easily, with most being part of the Indo-European macro-race all in a relatively same area and take on the world.
The comments suggest a hint of fascist rhetoric. It's not communism that was the issue, it was state autocracy. There is a major difference between the two. Moreover capitalism is failing in the west. In another 50 years, the pro US/western comments will be a joke to a dominant autocratic China and emerging India. Russia is capitalistic today but autocratic. It is still plagued by the same problem. Open your eyes and think critically.
@Frigidlava Agreed about the regimes but remember the proletariat will always be the majority thereby implying democracy, neither is capitalism as it is even more autocratic as its aim is monopoly. That is the reason that elites pump a whole load of cash into promoting minimum government services, worker rights and minimum wages. As pointed above at least communism implies collectivism which was ignored by these regimes that followed them. I think the ultimate capitalist state is China by being both autocratic and capitalist at the same time. It will come to dominate the world in the next 3 decades, guaranteed. Second best is the US which is a duopolistic party system that is capitalistic. I would rather live in western or northern Europe or Oceania which is more socialistic and multi party.
This chanel is not an official history channel. So this guy speak what he think it is right. He barely mentioned First Bulgarian empire. It is like it (First Bulgarian empire) didn't played role in christionizing Rus and give it the Cyrillic alphabet. Curently I read a book "History as a test for intelligence". Somehow couple of people come to Balkans and decided to make Bulgaria and surprisingly Bulgaria is at the same place till this day. Don't forget that Bulgaria was neghbouring with the greatest empire at that time East Roman empire.
12:41 I was raised as a Christian and later left when I grew up. Later on out of interest I spent a few months studying and annotating scripture unique to the faith I was raised in as well as some background to it. I have to say that the second interpretation presented as the Orthodox one seems much more apparent to me, and it surprises me sometimes to talk to my Christian friends and learn they hold the first view and reject the second. Plenty of times in scripture, Christians are called upon to endure their suffering and take no care for their own sake, giving all to God, for their just reward will be in heaven. You're almost meant to take an oath of poverty. It seems that the people identifying themselves as Christian around me believe that one can be as rich or as poor, caring for their own as much as they can, and that what unites them ultimately is whether they believe or not. I suppose that allows for a variety of social classes and strata and a culture more prone to run away from suffering. Without being an expert, I can't really say which is the "correct" interpretation, I just find the second one here to be more compelling from a scriptural standpoint.
Byzantines did NOT debate on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It arose as a XVII century critique of medieval scholastics. Even when it is claimed that this discussion took place, this question is attributed to Thomas Aquinas, who in no way was Byzantine.
Actually Nestorian Christianity was only dominant in mesopotamia,The rest of the middle East was split between The Dyophysite Eastern Orthodox Church and The Miaphysite Oriental Orthodox Church
The heart of respecting and understanding true history is viewing it from an impartial point of view when it comes to involved parties and from the cultural, social and economical tendencies of the time of interest(understanding the zeitgeist). As someone from the orthodox civilization I have to say your understanding on the subject is incredibly accurate.
I know it's mentioned in the video, but I want to stress that the term "Byzantine" was never used by the Eastern Romans. The term gained popularity among scholars in the west after the collapse of the Eastern Roman Empire, so to call the ERE Byzantium is an anachronism. Besides, it'd be like calling every French person a "Parisian"
Could you make a video about Gobekli-Tepe and speculate a bit why, for example, it was intentionally buried? And which language did the builders of it speak? And which cultures of Eurasia did they influence the most? (Sorry for repeating)
So many questions, virtually zero answers. I guess the best way to put it is the ancient Mesopotamian viewed whoever built Gobekli-Tepe (I'll call them the Taurans as that's the mountain GT is near) and the other hundreds and thousands of things hidden beneath the earth the same way we view the ancient Mesopotamians now. Tauran Civilization EST. 12,000 Yrs Ago | Sumerian Civilization EST. 6,000 Yrs. Ago The only difference is their stories were not written (or they were and we haven't found them yet or destroyed by conquerors) but were passed down orally until writing. Remember, the oldest story that we know of ever written, the Epic of Gilgamesh starts off with "In those ancient days." and it actually believed the Sumerian place of Du-Ku is Gobekli-Tepe. I mean we only figured out Sumeria existed 300 years ago and the Taurans 26 years ago. The truth is we won't know unless we invent time travel or we make another massive discovery, hopefully with writing or at least paintings and carvings. A tragedy really how much history is lost.
That Modern Orthodox part at the end hits so fucking hard bro Everyting in that last part is completley true an precise If only our politicians TRIED And yes we have produced many great minds Poor us man our young population is so inteligent but everyone is leaving for the west
No. Orthodoxy is not Manichean. Orthodox is indeed highly ascetical, a quality which Western civilization now lacks albeit share same Christian heritage. The Early Church has spent centuries fighting heresies, and among them, Gnosticism ranks as the first heresies (with Simon Magus in Acts 8 as the first heresiarch). The main differences here is that Orthodox believe that the material world and the body are inherently good, but due to the Fall, it needs to be glorified through emptying ourselves from sinful tendencies so that Grace can enter and return it to the original state. This is diametrically opposed by the Gnostics which believe materials are inherently evil and need to be destroyed in order for the soul to be free. The latter, strongly exhibit Platonism and Neo-Platonism tendencies. In fact, Neo-Platonism has been disturbing the Church for centuries as it is technically root of all heresies, like: It is impossible for Christ who is God to become truly Man at same time (Arians, Apollinarian, Docetist, Euthycians), or it is impossible for the Icons to convey God's Grace and can be venerated since those things are mundane (Iconoclast), or it is impossible for Baptism and Eucharist to bring Regeneration and truly be Body and Blood of Christ (like modern Protestantism which also has roots on Bogomils and Tondrakians). Anti-material tendency is strongly associated with Far Eastern religions, who fell to extreme destructive path to attain salvation (like burning themselves in a pyre) or fell to the equally opposite destructive extreme by falsely believed that fleshly desires can be used to attain salvation "if properly used" (like Tantras or Daoist sexual practices). Those have nothing to do with Orthodox, Christian teachings.
While it is true that Orthodox Christianity is non-dual Orthodox history is very, very messy (just think of the Hesychast controversy) and I can forgive whatifalthist for being confused on that front. The differences between Western and Eastern Christianity are deceptively subtle and people used to Western brands of Christianity will naturally be confused as they miss just how many worlds apart the Orthodox faith really is from modern Western Christianity.
I was thinking about writing specifically about that issue, when your comment appeared. It is sad to hear about Orthodoxy being manichean, when there are so many orthodox writings against them, as well as depiction of our teaching that spiritual equals good and flesh equals bad, when as you've rightfully said that Orthodoxy is non-dual and spiritual things as well as spirits themselves can be bad. And in the video, while displaying a Western outlook on the morality, author showed a more manichean picture which doesn't show real catholic struggle against different issues just after the split as well as not showing richness of Orthodox thought, when several things could coexist in theological sphere creating possibility of theologumena. Thank you for your comment! It's good to see a true statement about our faith. On the other issue, describing russian or eastern roman economical policy as socialistic is a misleading method. This and other things like this create a very distorted picture of Orthodox world and it's worldview.
Imo in an ideal world good Christians could separate from the governments around them and be prepared to live a war that finally fulfills the cries of the fallen of the prior reconquests. Easier said than done, but with faith and with power, it's most definitely possible. Perpendicular society that may withstand any invader.
@@antonioreconquistador it's just the problem with that is that a very substantial minority if not arguably the majority of countries like Russia have lost faith due to communism and it's stance on Christianity. But that would be cool.
Nothing they can do. Christianity is dying, just like other religions. There may be some other form of spirituality that will find proponents in the future (think "quantum mechanics is proof that God exists" kind of rhetoric), but this mantle will not be picked up by Christianity. I'm thinking probably something along the likes of scientific Confucianism.
@@yarpen26 Science is dead. Science, rationalism, and modernism were slain by Godel, it is theoretically impossible for it to ever form a coherent metaphysics, much less an empirical or rational one. It's taking the world a while to come to terms with this new reality, the west went all in on this worldview with the Enlightenment, but as postmodernism has demonstrated, it will fall.
Proud Orthodox here. Great video, come to our local Greek festivals. There’s good one in Elkins park, Broomall, Upper Darby- I remember correct you live near Philly
well tatar muslims lived in russia for hundreds of years, as did various pagan animist tribes. crimean tatars did too, before stalin and his shenanigans. caucasus was a different story of course, but large exterminations only happened in the 19th century because the government just could not understand how it can make some tribes loyal to them (those that submitted did not suffer the same fate afaik)
@@Lazer-bp9lf Understatement of the century, Stalin was right up there with Hitler and Mao, in fact his deathtoll is often estimated considerably higher then Hitlers. The core difference was that Stalins brutality was primarily aimed towards his own people and the Europeans he conquered(Doesnt mean he was nice to the Caucasian people and Asians) when we look at pre war atrocities we see mass killings, man made famines, gulags, political killings etc. When we look at during and after the war we start firstly seeing an army that goes on a complete rampage, mass rape, mass killings, mass pillagjng and not just to Germans but also to the Poles, Balts etc. We see the mass executions of Inteligentsia, Officers, Soldiers anyone who could even conceivably be a threat. Stalins entire reign can best be described as one long and terrifying Red Terror, even those loyal to him werent safe.
28:57 This map is wrong: Hungary never choosed communism. After ww1 it happened as a silent coup of the communists, when they forced the incompetent Karolyi to resign. After ww2 it happened because of the soviet occupation.
@Fact: Islam is wrong tell that to the almost 40000 jews murdered by them in 3 months and then the following 80000 jews deported and enslaved. Or the sick jewish hospital patients they shot as soon as they started to lose grip of power.
Such an important topic and I agree in spirit with a lot in this video. The West has misunderstood, mischaracterised and often mistreated Orthodox peoples for centuries. The situation in Ukraine can only be understood within that context (though there is no appetite in mainstream Western media to admit this).
Your argument that the merchant class never gained dominance in Orthodox civilization completely missed the history of the pre-Tzarist Russian city of Novgorod. Otherwise this was pretty good 👍 Edit: oh also I would have at least briefly mentioned a bit about the pre-Mongol influence of the Norse/Scandinavian nations and peoples on the Rus area as well. Trade between the Vikings and Byzantine Empire went straight through Rus by river
He actually was talking specifically about Slavs here, in something of a conflation. It's actually not a definite argument to make anyway since first the non-local dominance over trade was first and foremost a function of the proximity/abundance of Germans (with the long expertise) or Jews (who were legally not able to do anything else to survive). The concentration of the foreign capital was significant not just in, say, Orthodox Romania but also in Catholic Poland, Bohemia or the Baltics. Germans and Jews were in turn far less prominent in the Southern Balkans and particularly Russian interior (in fact, Russia was first exposed to actual masses of Germans and Jews in the 18th century, hundreds of years after Poland was) which left the locals with more in turm of breathing space, but still didn't really foster any sort of better development. All in all, the problem is, just about any trouble he lists with "Orthodox" civilization could very well be ascribed to Catholic Poland all the way until the fall of communism. Their past 30 years' rise vis a vis Orthodox neighbors was completely unprecedented. The same applies to the Baltics.
What was said at 30:29? I distinctly heard something, it might have been a bit of editing but if it was intentional i'm rather curious now Indeed, hit the nail on the head-When I tell people that my knowledge of Cyrillic enabled me to cruise through Ancient Greek at first at University, and explaining how the East Slavic world is culturally Byzantine, relatively well educated people take a while to come around and recover from the shock of what they heard Excellent video, always a pleasure watching these ones
As historian to historian I don't tend to offend you with my comment, so sorry in advance for my language, but English is not my mother tongue. Ignoring the Bulgarian factor in contributing to orthodox Christianity, also spreading of it, is fairly incompetent. It is well known fact that thanks to the bulgarian church and language (Cyrillic) during the cultural golden period of Tsar Simeon. A lot of emissaries/priests were infact sent to russia to give them a language in which to write and read thus spreading orthodox christianity to the north, and to all slavic tribes and groups. One of the reason why to this day in russian churches priests still sing and read text in old slavonic (or old bulgarian scripture and language)and use the cyrilic language not latin. A lot of books written during the reign of the 1st and 2nd Bulgarian empire were transfered to Russia, while bulgaria was falling under Ottoman rule. One more, there was a period of time when Bulgars had complete orthodox domination and is not something to be taken with light heart. Nowadays Bulgaria find itself in weak period of time, one of the reason its history to this day is not so good familiar to many historians, so as historian to historian I wish that you take a deeper and meaningful look at it. I hope for understanding.
Incredible video! I would have a suggestion for a video about understanding countries that are unique in their respective region and do not necessary fit into their "Archetype". Some suggested countries/cultures would be: Romania (a latin island amidst a slavic sea), Hungary & Finland (Fino-Ugric countries that have survived Europe), Kazakhstan (and the other -stan countries), the Continental Asian South Eastern Countries (Myanmar, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia) and the central american countries & caribbean. I think a lot of these cultures are extremely underrated and there are plenty of people who would like to find more/find what the opinion of a knowledgeable American is. Personally, I find the history of Central-Eastern Europe particularly interesting and underrated, especially when taking into account the richness of some of the cultures here (Czech, Romanian, Polish, Hungarian, Yugoslavian, Post Byzantine-Greek (not to be confused with Classical Greek))
In the case of the Hungarians, they seem to be more of a finnic speaking people that adopted Turkic lifestyle. Even their name, Magyar and Hungary, takes stronger influence from the Turkics then the Finno-Uralics. I'd list them with the Bulgarians and the Finns with the Estonians
Speaking of Orthodox civilizations, could you please do a video on the Tigray War? You're one of my favorite geo/history RUclipsrs and it'd be really cool to see your perspective on the situation!
been traveling Europe for months now. I loved seeing, visiting and praying in the orthodox ☦ churches of Romania, Serbia, Montenegro, Bulgaria, Bosnia and Albania. I love the designs of their churches and have been studying Orthodox a lot recently
This is by far one of the best videos I've ever watched about the orthodox christian religion before. I see a civilization who didn't only survive some of the ugliest diseases (you either left that out intantionally or not), fought to it's near death against almost all empires, sunk the fleet of the "prophet" and is still standing today as one of the strongest among of all civilizations.
what were the “socialist economic measures that crushed the economy” that were introduced by the balkan / Illyrian emperors that are mentioned at 6:25? i have a hard time believing a policy from antiquity can be correctly described as socialist. applying post-industrial 19th and 20th century terms to a classical society doesn’t really translate. the economy had already been in a disastrous state for some time before they rose to power anyways. i also think the claim made seconds before that one is also dubious, that one reason the empire fell was from the expansion of government done by the Illyrian emperors. it was a measure taken to stop constant civil war by reducing the amount of power a lot of positions had and it also helped rebuild a lot the empire after the crisis of the third century by adding more government officials that can actually focus on things like rebuilding efforts in the country side. i get that during this time the groundwork for feudalism began to be lay but i don’t think that was because of the expansion of government.
I wouldn't add the Rus as an orthodox civilization before the mongol conquest. Those were closer to merchant republics than centralized empires up until the mongols came and destroyed all of that and replaced it with a centralized power structure to rule the whole region. EDIT: Looks like I talked too early in the video.
I've already watched the Katarina documentaries, as well as Sophia, the Romanovs & Rasputin. All Russian language . (have to read close caption), all extremely well made.
Would be interesting if you covered the relatively isolated Orthodox Ethiopian Church, fighting tooth and nail against Islamic expansion as well as European(Italian) Imperialism. They even invaded Yemen at one point to help Byzanitum fight a rogue Jewish kingdom. Their relationship to Ancient civilizations as well as to modern pan Africanist groups such as the Rastas makes it even more unique.
The Ethiopians are myaphasite, which although technically orthodox in the eyes of catholics, is different from greek orthodoxy
He probably forgot about them lol
This... we needed this
I definitely wanna see this
From Balkans to Vladivostok is Orthodox Catholic Church,commonly called in the anglosphere Eastern Orthodox, meanwhile the Ethiopians are Oriental Orthodox,like the armenians on what i remember.
The middle ages, that wonderful time when Italy was thinking about being like ancient Greece and Greece was thinking about being like ancient Italy.
in the middle ages here in italy we were thinking about being like ancient rome and ,in genua and venice, how to establish trading outposts in greece and forcing unequal treaties with the byzantines.
@@marcobonesi6794 that Is more late medieval period he's talking about the communal times.
Were Barbarossa came to conquer as Serse did in Greece and Italy was, whit it's many comunes governaments, one of the most democratic places in the know world.
Then the renassance came and It was all China warlords time trying to unite Italy whit brutal force and general expansion outwards.
@@thereita1052 nah. It was always brutal warlord style fighting until the spanish conquest of most of the peninsula in the 16th century and then the unification in the 19th century. In fact during the middle ages,before of the rise of the "signoria" system in the 14th century, it was a clusterfuck of city against city.
@@marcobonesi6794 and faction against faction, clan against clan inside the single cities and provinces.
@@marcobonesi6794 It was Indeed a battle royale but I'd say thanks to the use of mercenarys and the signoria system It was more brutal than ever. The instability brought constant wars and mercenaries were much brutal in pillaging citys.
Also the signoria was a much brutal governament in general you can read "il principe" of Machiavelli to understand how the pepole were just a mere tool to exploit.
The communal sistem at least was stable and lasted for much of the early medival times (At least stable compared to the signoria) and was accountable to the voice of the pesantry and lower class Who voted and policed the governament.
And onestly greek city states fought a lot too.
Just a quick correction: Armenia and Georgia are both Orthodox nations. Georgia is solidly Eastern Orthodox, like the Russians. However, the Armenians are Armenian Apostolic, who are technically a seperate sect of Orthodoxy. However, this is largely because of a theological technicality in the 5th century, and is not really seen as a major issue by the vast majority of Orthodox I know, including myself.
@Noah Pritchett No
@Noah Pritchett if by catholic you mean Orthodox Catholic(i.e. Eastern Orthodox) yes,if you mean Roman Catholic or any other kind of papist then no.
@Noah Pritchett that is the common think about protestants and Orthodocs,meanwhile the common thing between catholics and Orthodocs Is the love and respect for Theodokos.
It is seen as a major issue, I don't know where you got that from, vast majority?! It's just ascetism and monasticism ideas that more or less unify these two churches, Orthodox Christians are closer to Roman Catholics in terms of doctrine than Armenian apostolic. They are non-Chalcedonians while Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism accept Chalcedon assembly resolutions.
@Noah Pritchett then “begome ortodox” 🙂
Why is it that you never include Cyprus in your orthodox maps, but you include it in your Islamic maps? The island was 80% Orthodox before 1974 and still is a majority Orthodox today.
at 2:20 you can see that Cyprus is on the orthodox map
Because.... He's a bit dumb.
@@karambiatos I mean, he even posted a screenshot of a PragerU on this video... He's entertaining but just a few braincells above a Trumpie
@@davedark27 Right, because Biden is a true leader.
@@davedark27 You trying to start something you ignorant bub?
Highly recommend Timothy Ware's "The Orthodox Church" to any interested in Eastern Orthodoxy. Ware is an Englishman who converted to Orthodoxy and has become a Metropolitan (type of bishop). It's very readable for uninitiated Americans, and it gives a lot of this history (and of course some of the theology that undergirds it) in more detail.
Also, come and see, there are a lot of Orthodox churches throughout the world, many use the local language and will be happy to answer any questions you may have.
@@PhoebeK absolutely! I recommended Wares book for the exposition, but must say nothing is quite like directly experiencing the liturgy. I have never lived particularly close to an Orthodox church, but was surprised to recently learn a friend of mine in Evansville IN is in the process of converting to Orthodoxy from Roman Catholicism. Orthodoxy isn't just for ethnic enclaves!
Memory eternal, Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, who reposed this August 24.
@Prasanth Thomas true, but the 2015 edition I read still has "Timothy Ware" on the cover--was trying to make it as easy as possible for people new to orthodoxy to find!
@@scottgoodson1847 your friend made a good decision ☝️☦️
This civilization videos are the best Christmas gift a RUclipsr has given out, truly amazing content!
Orthodox, together with Latin America is marginally part of the West, having both descended from the classical West. All harkens backs to the Indo-Europeans (particularly the centum branch) being the ones who developed the Western world. This is why white people are naturally able to unite themselves so easily, with most being part of the Indo-European macro-race all in a relatively same area and take on the world.
For those interested Lest Darkness Fall/Aphotheosis of Martin Padway
An Atheist Historian from 1938 ends up in 535 Italy and changes history for the better
Hindu-Arabic Numerals, Brandy, Printing Press, Paper plus the lessening of slavery is done within a few years
He is able to rebirth the Western Roman Empire as a more secular/progressive/industrialized nation
Eastern Roman Empire losses territory to the west but devours Persia. Emperor Justinian lives 20 years past his historical death thanks to modern medicine
Eventually Humanity has a spacefaring, immortal, time-traveling Atheist Star Trek civilization
@@christiandauz3742 well this scenario could never ever happen If said atheist did the time travel what would happen is either he would get either locked or even killed and he would not be able to change history în the direction you mentioned even If he wasn,t killed
@@ratoimariurs5323
He gets a loan and makes Brandy to get rich. Being rich and a famous inventor accidentally gets him into politics
@@christiandauz3742 nope realistically he would still fail even here besides the distillation of alcohol as we know today was invented in 800s in middle east
An interesting fact is that the western Slavs almost became orthodox. In the 9th century a the duke of Moravia invited greek missionaries to stop the growing HRE influence. They actually developed cyrillic, the alphabet that most of the slavic orthodox nations use today. Anyway the duke was eventually overthrown by Svatopluk. This guy was actually pretty competent and expanded Great Moravia and pushed out the german influence. One of the things he did is that he exiled the orthodox archbishop, because he saw him as having too much influence and also an ally of the previous duke(He also exiled all of his scholars). They then moved to neighboring orthodox states in the Balkans and Russia, bringing the alphabet with them. With this, the catholic church returned to Moravia and stayed there. After the death of Svatopluk there was a power struggle between his sons, right in time when the Hungarians arrived and conquered the territory. After that, the Hungarians adopted the dominant religion, so became Catholic. If it weren't for Svatopluk, it is very possible, that we could've seen European civilizations, divided exactly by the lines of the Iron Curtain.
Yeah the western Slavic(Poland Czech, Slovak, and Croatia) are in this in-between area of western and Eastern European culture. Poland while it is culture similar to other Slavic countries, however it been highly by Germanic culture(granted some of it was because of conquest).
To be more precise the missionary was Saint Methodius, actually he was so competent that the Pope later appointed him as Bishop of Moravia (the schism hadn't happened yet), but Svatopluk made him prisoner and the Frankish priest Witching was made the Bishop and used the Latin Liturgy, also at the time it wasn't the Cyrillic alphabet that was made for the Moravian liturgy but the Glagolitc.
Orthodox, together with Latin America is marginally part of the West, having both descended from the classical West. All harkens backs to the Indo-Europeans (particularly the centum branch) being the ones who developed the Western world. This is why white people are naturally able to unite themselves so easily, with most being part of the Indo-European macro-race all in a relatively same area and take on the world.
They weren't Greek. Cyril and Methodius were either Macedonian or Bulgarian, not Greek
@@GL-iv4rw don’t compare orthodox with latin america, it is not at all the same. Orthodox is a culture of itself and isn’t descended from westerners at all like latin america.
As a Bulgarian Orthodox person I`m so happy to finally watch this. I though I would have to wait months to see it. Orthodox civilization is puzzling and complex to understand for us also. I could only imagine what it looks like to a foreigner.
Orthodoxy is so burried under the communist propaganda that wanted to destroy it .
@@jord19100 not entirely though
@@jord19100 Stalin used the Orthodox church as an ally in WW2 and merged the state and the church. ruclips.net/video/2mY0y6wnoEE/видео.html
Orthodoxy is not difficult to understand. It is the most straightforward system.
The problem is that we have been on the losing side since the 10th century.
Moreover, I would call it the Orthodox Faith rather than civilization.
I am Albanian Orthodox but I acknowledge that Orthodoxy is today relevant mostly by the contributions of the Slavs.
I disagree with this guy's mindframe. He is a liberal or enlightened guy. This is the impression I get.
And one thing that I have become entirely assured this year is that democracy is bad.
Just a fun fact we have turkish eastern orthodox community in turkey not too big however a small minority we also have turkish orthodox church as well.
I think you mostly skip the importance of the Bulgarian Empire, and its conversation to orthodox Christianity. They contributed a LOT to the Eastern World and the Slavs migrating in with the invention of the Cyrillic Alphabet, and giving autonomy to the slavs in its empires.
Yeah what was up with that? Almost like he did it on purpose.
Yes he for some reason barely mentions the bulgar empire infact almost all what he said on the vid about it was wrong
Too often Bulgaria is forgotten.
The Bulgarian empire did not create the cyrillic alphabet, Cyril and Methodious did.
@@The_Custos balkans are often forgotten because today they're.. honestly very small insignificant nations. its easy to forget that hungary, bulgaria, serbia etc. all had large empires when they're the poorest and smallest and oldest parts of Europe today.
Though they're also among the tallest and strongest on average Euros. The dinaric blood still runs deep.
A neat summary, and I agree with most of it, but once again there are couple of mistakes, or questionable statements presented as fact. It's frustrating when people confidently say incorrect things about your own part of the world.
1. Georgia is a full member of the communion of Eastern Orthodox Churches, and always has been, doctrinally, politically, etc. Unlike Armenia, which adopted Christianity long before Rome did and possesses entirely it's own traditions and origins.
2. Constantine did *not* make Christianity the 'official religion' of the Roman Empire, he simply ended their persecution and took a personal interest in the religion. But Constantine continued the Imperial cult at Rome, did nothing to act against pagans in the Empire (with the big exception of Jerusalum), and seems to have associated Christianity with his own family-cult of Sol Invictus.
3. Christian sects in the early Byzantine Empire did largely adhere to ethnic lines, but Nestorians were a tiny minority, the main non-Chalcedonian (Melkite) sect was and is Monophysite (Copts & Syriacs). Monophysites were at the doctrinal opposite extreme from Nestorians (Melkites are in the middle), and actually initiated the persecution of Nestorians in the first place. Nestorians were overwhelmingly found east of the Byzantine frontiers, in Persia and Central Asia (they even reached Mongolia and gave them their alphabet).
4. "socialist measures" lol. People who regularly watch your channel know what you're implying (centralised bureaucratisation of the economy) but come on, you *know* how misleading describing one of the most hierachical and unequal economic systems on earth as 'socialism' sounds.
5. No major Slavic merchant class *ever*? I think the Republic of Novogorod would be a pretty exception, certainly Jews and Armenians practically didn't exist in Russia then.
6. Lingual Map. Armenian isn't a Caucasian language, it has no connection to Georgian.
7. Attributing Russia's government style to the Mongols, or discussing the conquest generally, is *hardly* 'very taboo' in Russia, and never has been. Actually there are dozens of old sayings, books, films, and even popular songs in Russia about this, too the point its practically a cliche.
8. Belarus/Ukraine weren't seized by a 'Western Christian' Lithuania, when Lithuania conquered these regions it was still an entirely pagan society. Poland also had nothing to do with these wars at this time, it came to share these East Slavic lands much later, with the union.
9. Most Russian soil is actually fairly poor, the ultra-fertile 'black soil' region is mainly found in Ukraine, Tatarstan and the Caspian-steppe, both regions outside of Muscovite control for much of its history. Actually, America has more prime arable land than any other nation, 99% of which *was never even used before* European colonists arrived.
10. Again with the American jingoism, of course the geography was easy to 'adapt' to when your opponents were hunter-gatherer tribes and you had railroads. Nearly all Russia goes *under -30* (imagine coping with this in pre-industrial times) *every year*. The USSR took the overwhelming brunt of WWII, whilst not a single American civilian in America was ever killed, gee, I wonder why USA won the Cold War.. Ridiculous comparison.
11. Communist map. Comments for missing? Well, Indonesia killed about 500'000 people to squash their socialist movement. Also the PKK in Turkey, avowedly Communist but I guess it's Kurdish separatism in practice. Also the MEK and Republic of Mahabad in Iran. And somehow Mongolia is missing.
4. Read (or listen to) the essay “State Socialism and Anarchism: How Far They Agree, and Wherein They Differ” by Benjamin Tucker. You and everyone else I’ve seen criticizing Whatif don’t understand socialism.
the vast majority of nations indigenous to North America were not hunter-gatherer tribes, the image of them as hunter-gatherer tribes is really due to their population being devastated by the combination of settler aggression and introduced diseases, but your point still stands
He was more political than usual in this video, came off looking pretty ignorant
@@andyabram4195 Eh, being political or openly biased is totally fine, just don't make factual errors doing it.
And he mentioned the “how many angels can fit on the head of a pin” myth
This is so interesting, ever since you showed that you were going to cover this topic I was like: "What new thing am I going to learn here?" Your channel really is an inspiration @Whatifalthist and although my channel is moving away from Alternative History, my videos will never hold a candle to yours! Keep up the excellent work and stay blessed!
Blessed post
Orthodox, together with Latin America is marginally part of the West, having both descended from the classical West. All harkens backs to the Indo-Europeans (particularly the centum branch) being the ones who developed the Western world. This is why white people are naturally able to unite themselves so easily, with most being part of the Indo-European macro-race all in a relatively same area and take on the world.
@@GL-iv4rw I would separate Latin America from North America. Latin America culturally is very different. Not to sure on orthodox but I agree with Whatifalthist on Latin America.
@@EduardoDiaz-wk7ld So good I watched it twice!
@@hadi8699 the modern West, Latin America and Orthodox are like sister worlds, this is why they get along so well. All was developed by the centum branch of the Indo-Europeans. The Western world (lead by USA) all have a common enemy, the Eastern world lead by China.
YES oh my god thanks, made my day. Classic Civilization yesterday, Orthodox Civilization today. It's a miracle my Greek mind finds too good to believe
Dod it help you understand our modern Greek identity and legacy better? To be honest I found the video a bit overwhelming, maybe I haven't been as knowledgeable to swallow it easier despite I have been interested in history since forever.
This channel radicalized me. Oh and thanks for cranking out another exceptional series. merry christmas to all who enjoy whatifalthist!
Radicalized you into what, classical liberalism?
@@bigboineptune9567 nah I just think it's rad
@@bigboineptune9567 this channel has radicalized me into believing societies need a powerful narrative (religion, ideology, whatever it can make) that gives them the drive to succeed and keep moving forward under pressure. Look at the west today - a military humiliation and everyone immediately looses all hope, these people have no story in their minds they wish to fulfill.
I have yet to find a way to integrate this belief into the rest of my opinions.
Merry Christmas!
Have a merry Christmas 👍
There's a great example in the orthodox civilisation of merchant elites taking control: The Merchant Republic of Novgorod. It became a massive Center of culture and trade that was projected towards the Baltic Sea.
Yeah! That's my boy! Neo-Novgorodstvo, that's a future for Russia!
Btw I visited Novgorod a few years ago. It's magnificent, and it has it's own estetics. Now, being more fond of some ideals of republicanism and, I guess, social-democracy if a kind, I even want to create a group featuring merge of this elements.
@@tyryonolofing3405 too bad it was burnt down to build Saint Petersburg
@@Jayako12 it was burning down on a regular basis, because it was wooden. And it's demise is a result if Ivan 3 deeds, much earlier, than Peterburg even was imaginated.
What Russia needs is a new peter the great who stamps out curroption, and ends the oligarchs control of the Russian economy
@@tyryonolofing3405 I still think the Vladimir Land is like the land of the "royal Scythians" of Russia, the rightful ruler. Here Bogolyubsky saw a vision of the Mother of God, and regiments flocked here to the Battle of Kulikovo. Hence the impulse of power, which already in the 12th century burned Kiev as an old place of squabbles, and an attempt to establish dominance. Novgorod for centuries was dependent on this place, in the time of the Mongols in a large sense, even moral.
I think these relations have a deeper foundation than all "liberalisms", "autocracies". It's something elusive
As a member of the Orthodox community I'm happy to see a RUclipsr making this type of video. I have always wanted to learn more about the fate and its history.
Idea: do Native American civilizations before European contact and how they changed in the process. In particular, I’m interested how advanced they really were compared to Europe. It’s hard to get a clear answer today due to biases on both sides.
They had interesting systems. If given the right weapons for defense, they would have developed sophisticated societies IMO. Similar to Japan or East Indies countries
Hope he mentions the Latin American(excluding the Inca, Mayan, and Astecs cause they are pretty popular). Especially the Brazilian tribes, since I'm Brazilian.
I’d love to see a Native American civilization video, especially one that goes up to the present day. To often they are ignored in history, and truthfully even more so in the present.
@@rafa_bra7105 Is that Johnny joestar⁉️⁉️⁉️⁉️⁉️⁉️
@@rafa_bra7105 He already did a video on Latin America, unless you're specifically referring to Native Americans in that area
yo russian here, actually expected more from you (knowing how deeply goes your research) tho it is hard since historical/social science wasn't doing much during communist regime to explore our history thorouly. anyway it is nice to witness your culture being explained on such a great channel. peace!
You must also consider how many translation are in languages that he knows.
Orthodox Christianity, the Church that can trace it's roots to Christ and His Apostles
Yessir Amen
The Catholic Church can do the same thing .
@@Downey-2000 Sure it can, but it has been corrupted along the way.
@@bananamen2316 funny we say the same about you regarding Communism and National Bolsheviks
@@sonicnarutoTDpg Which have nothing to do with the religion and have long since died out, maybe you should worry about the communists/socialists emerging in your countries. 🤔
Man just drew a straight line from Ancient Rome to modern Russia, mind blowing how good this channel is
Moscow is sometimes referred to as the Third Rome. As in Rome->Constantinople->Moscow.
This channel is stupid american bullshit, if you are amazed you know nothing about history
Also Russia is literally Third Rome, as someone already mentioned
This video was basically "What if Byzantium survived " combined with "What if Soviet Union didnt exist"
Stop, I can only get so erect.
The main difference în orthodox civilisations is that, while they all are based on rural people, their lives and troubles, along with their movement to the city, in the Balkans it was more of a fight of the people against the foreign powers and their influence, corrupting their institutions
For the russians, their institutions became foreign and started to fight to enslave their own people, using themselves of the old facade of religious grace that enveloped the emperor. The Balkans were far more liberal(when not exploited by the ottomans), and often driven by bodies of smaller nobles leading peasants, or, in the best of times, for states like those in România or Serbia, by a ruler that managed to mobilize the church, the nobles and peasants under themselves
truer words have never been spoken before
Wow, i had no idea Serbia had history so cool! Serbia and Romania sound like amazing countries with deep histories, more than many other European civilizations.
@@nicklibby3784 idk if you're ironical or not, but in case you are serious, yes, Serbia and Romania do în fact, both have quite some history. I personally would say that România has a longer one, but I might not be the best source, you can go search for yourself, the balkans are full of history just as much, if not more than maybe any other place in Europe
@@Carmiel_Balfont Just be sure to read for multiple sources since there are many lies told by all sides.
@@bevbevan6189 indeed
As a catechumen to the Orthodox church, I really appreciate the lengths that you went through to highlight this very misunderstood culture. I might have some slight differences in opinion on one thing or another, but so what...overall a bang up job!
The most critical misunderstanding is his statement that Orthodox has a manichean metaphysic
One problem I'm seeing with this video is that even though you've included Armenias Apostolic Church in "Orthodox Civilization" even though they are technically oriental orthodox (very similar to eastern orthodox), you have not included similar oriental churches I.e. the Coptic and Ethiopian churches. These are very interesting and ancient parts of the orthodox and thereby Christian world that you have neglected to include.
@Norman This isn't a video about how interconnected the Orthodox world was. This is a video on the orthodox world itself. It's like if you made a video on economically important parts of the U.S. and neglected New York and Florida.
This is speculation, and I can’t speak for the Ethiopian church, but the Coptic church of Egypt played little to no role in the development of Egyptian civilization since the Arab conquests. Of course, there were fringe sizable minorities which had clung onto Christianity over the centuries, but on a civilizational scale, It meant very little.
@@monarchblue4280 naaah ...
1st of all ur comparison is lacking cuz New York and Florida are like huuuge parts of the whole thing and African Orthodoxy is not
2. Egypt has been Islam dominated for most of its time (See ottomans in this Vid and even if they were not there was only a minority of Christians and even smaller numberso of othodox ppl) // Same with Ethiopia only 44% are orthodox there
3. African/ Arabian civilisation is (he alluded to it in the vid) very clan and culture based so they would be waaaay different even if they were a bigger part of the whole civ
Despite some theological similarities, I think it's a huge stretch to say that Ethiopia and Russia are part of the same civilization. Ethiopia is sort of the center of its own, smaller civilization.
The problem is that we are not looking at Africa in this video, we are looking at Eurasia
Proud to be orthodox Slav 💪🏻👍🏻😊
lajk za ime :DD
@@alokinrainborn Hvala 🤣
I am greek, and I must say this was an amazing story-telling of a 1500 (or even more) year long story. Keep up the good work 👌🏻
Αν μπορουσε να μας πει γιατι σχετικα μετα το 1940 επικρατει η κλεπτοκρατια στην ελλαδαν θα ηταν ακομα καλυτερο
Orthodox cultures by far were hit the worst of every christian civilization you guys are losing so much land to Muslim invasion pretty depressing not gonna lie
@@stratos8 Oy vey
@𝕻𝖆𝖑𝖆𝖉𝖎𝖓 𝖁𝕴 yeah christ is in control like in 1453 and 1923
@@stratos8 γιατί πριν το 40 είχαμε υγιές πολιτικό σύστημα;
Συν ότι τις δεκαετίες 50 και 60 είχαμε τεράστια οικονομική ανάπτυξη
The problem with this “Civilizations” concept is that they are even more vague than nations. For example, Russia isn’t considered European mostly because of USSR formed and cut off the ends with the rest of the Europe and then US tried to unite Western Europe and to finally be a respected nation among other major European powers. Before WWI Russia would be considered as much or even more European than American due to a fact that America was too much about economy instead of culture and because it was very internal and isolationist. And yes, I know Western doesn’t = European. But that’s the point. Some minor changes in history and voila: Modern Southern Europe is now also considered as a unique civilization. They are very connected to Romans and Greeks, they have Catholicism instead of Protestantism which is actually closer to Orthodoxy in many ways than to Protestantism, they have unique and different climate zone etc.
Edit: Here are some thoughts about the video. 1. The ruling class that doesn't eat the civilization is not entirely true. Soviet elite's descendants are in many cases already eaten Russia, which lead to 2. No, there was no wide Communist support among peasants even after they seized power. Only poor peasants of northern Russia supported them. And even they would prefer another political group, which was socialist but non-marxist and ethnocentric, namely, SRs. 3. Question: if you look on the faces of Russian aristocracy in 19 century do you see that influence of wide inter-marriages with Mongols? No. That's because there is no one. There is no mongolic influence on aristocracy, because Mongols are far away. But there is relatively large turkic influence since they are Russia's eastern neighbors. And even this influence is diminished by population pressure of core-ethnos. 4. Bad peasants-elites relations have a long story with more dark and more light ages and many reasons. It is also well-explained by thinking about Russian institutions as an older version of European. For example, German peasants lived in pretty harsh conditions too. In fact, they lived badly even in 18 century. And the worst time for Russian peasants was during the rule of Catherine II because she purposefully changed some laws, which means she thought what she's been doing is okay. And she was originally german princess. I don't think this is a coincidence.
Edit 2: I don' want my critique to make me seem that I dislike video, it is still very good and sharp. For example, parts about colonization of Southern Ukraine as more important than Siberia and Russia before Revolution developing rapidly and many other parts are good and correlate with what I know.
Edit 3: If a civilization is something that linked with patterns, here is a pattern to you: there are cycles of more liberal and conservative rulers (or times, without link to persons) since early 19 century. For example, Alexander I almost gave Russia constitution, Nicolas I was conservative, then Alexander II came, but then he was killed and Alexander III started counter-reforms. It was broken a bit when Nicolas II wasn't liberal by his own desire. I think it would be better if he was liberal by desire (in such case reforms would be better) or if he was fully conservative (Revolution wouldn't happen). Anyway, he was too weak for such a hard time. In modern Russia this cycles are more liberal Yeltzin, early Putin and Medvedev, then more conservative anti-West Putin. So there is probably a high chance for more friendly Russia in decade or two I guess.
Considering Russia as a non european nation started way before the forming of USSR
@UCA_LCGVdRz4lfTcsMShbtrw Russia? Progressive in the 18th and the 19th century? How, if I may ask? During the latter era, the Tsars started implementing Russification policies to homogenize the Empire culturally and ethnically. And on top of this, the Tsars never in their tenure as rulers ever ceded power to the people for their empire to be considered “progressive.” Say for the Duma which was forced in the wake of being humiliated by an Asian power.
@@TheWazzoGames well yes, but this Duma worked pretty well and it was the plot of the Duma that led to the abdication of Nicholas II, had they been more competent they could have made Russia a republic quite easily given the low popularity of the Tsar
It comes to who you ask, i only know it for germany (especially for the east), no matter who you ask, almost everyone will tell you, russia is european.
Civilization should be considered as something which surrounds a core identity shared between its people, regardless of the differences within. Even if Catholics and Protestants are different religions, each shares a similar underlying mentality and approach to the world. But yes, it is a complex subject.
As an Australian, it’s always funny you don’t include Queensland in your map painting of the west
LMAO noticed that too. What is he saying? all of Queensland is uninhabited or something?
Australian Labrador
He puts some parts of Alaska and Canada as not Western.
That's because the map is based on EU4 provinces. Only some of them are colonisable.
He puts northern Canada as blank but Hawaii as western.
Byzantine Empire to its children: Vodka? Real Orthodox drink wine, amateurs.
Actually vodka was invented in late MiddleAges in Poland or Russia( there is dispute who created it first)
There was never a Byzantine Empire. It was the Roman Empire and it lasted from 27 BC with Augustus Caesar to about 1453 AD with Constantine XI. Namely, 1500 years of continuous statehood. Constantinople or New Rome as it was named officially was the only nominal capital of the Roman Empire after the other western emperor was deposed by Odoacer in 476 A.D.
@@ΒασιλείατῶνῬωμαῖων "Byzantium" and "Byzantine Empire" sounds cool AF tho. Aesthetically it makes sense to talk about it that way instead of "Roman Empire".
I’m Orthodox. Best decision of my life was to become Orthodox.
Amin Brother 🙏☝️☦️
Í was born Orthodox, and took it philosophically very serious fór á long time. One of the best decisions of my life was giving up Orthodoxy and Christianity in general. Please reconsider, good sir.
@@antonteodor6305 with all respect, may I ask why.
@@lawrencerose256 I mean, there's so many full of shit protestants converting to orthodoxy and bringing their self righteous holier than thou point of view into leadership positions.
@@lawrencerose256 Christianity has many components: clergy, ritual, myth, moral code, philosophy - in order of importance, from superficial to essential. I will tell you what I feel and think about each of these.
The Romanian Orthodox Church is very corrupt. High-ranking prelates are notorious for their wealth and ostentation. Of course, there are great priests everywhere, but the institution as a whole is rather doubtful. And it's not just in Romania - look at the Russian Orthodox Church and how it readily allies with Putin, instead of denouncing his fratricidal madness.
Christian rituals are beautiful, and I've been appreciating them more and more. I enjoy visiting churches and listening to sacred chants of all denominations (Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran). Easter is the most sacred and beautiful time of the year for me. Yet these are only symbols, and they are nothing without the essence behind them.
Christian myth is just that to me. I have not taken the story of the flood or of Jesus' resurrection literally, ever since I was a schoolboy. They were always just stories, useful for expressing the moral code and the philosophical outlook of the religion.
And so we come to the important stuff.
I am split about Christian morality. On one hand, I have a poor opinion about the distinctly secondary role ascribed to women - shown as companions to men, who are the primary actors; also, about the strong opposition to homosexuality. Additionally, there's the contradiction of YHWH being shown as merciful and loving, but acting cruelly to humans and even to his own son, incarnated. On the other hand, I truly appreciate the teachings of Jesus. Compassion is one of the most important lessons we must learn, it is invaluable for building a healthy society.
Lastly, the Christian Cosmos doesn't stand up to logic or to modern scientific fact. There is no trace of evidence for anything resembling the soul. The notions of an all-powerful or an all-knowing being create logical paradoxes. And if these aren't true, then the very essence of Christian faith (and of many other faiths, I might add) is gone.
Giving up on Christianity helped me clear out internal contradiction and guilt, and helped me open my mind and learn new things.
But I won't deny that Jesus and Koukouzelis are awesome :)
I think you could've covered the Bulgarians more as they were quite influential at the time, at their golden age being the first Slavic cultural hub and being responsible for spreading Orthodoxy to a lot of Slavs and the Cyrillic Alphabet, the successes of leaders like Boris I and Simeon The Great shouldn't really be ignored
Orthodox here! Hope you do a good job!
Same here☦️👑
30:00 Gdp per capita (nominal),2021 according to IMF
Hungary: 18,075$
Poland: 16,930$
Romania: 14,968$
Ukraine: 3,984$
Putting Romania in the same boat with Ukraine is a bit disingenious
I know that Romanians usually talk bad about their country but it must be understand that we are the kind of people that tend to see the glass half-empty
I would make an arguement that commies fucked up all the soviet republics. Even the baltic ones got horrible suicide rate from ussr, and they got the best deal.
@@fgkuv5232 and after all of that you still have the people who defend communist regimes...
@@jeanssold2131 sadly a lot of russians are defending commies
@@fgkuv5232 Who fuck who? Baltics grow under USSR. After indepentence they dying off 30 years non stop. And after all of that you still have the people...
@Frigidlava yep, BEFORE ww2. WW2 hits Baltics harder. Much harder.
I can agree that WarPact trade politics was not the best, but that help to rebild economics of mostly annigilated contries and make them grow.
You cant look, for example, on nowdays Ukrain and say, that all problems that this country have Now, after 30 years of capitalism, 30 years of stealing, selling off all that they have of UkrSSR, making corrupt deals with West, lost of Crimea and civil war - look guys, their economy suck, haha, commi-commi hur-dur.
11:55 i am guessing you just made a mapping mistake, but putting the georgian church under thr Armenian can be considered pretty offensive. There are some similarities but both operate under seperate doctrines and even branches of orthodoxy with georgian being more alike byzantine with armenian going more or less its own way
He said in the video that the churches are separate, so it is just a coloring mistake
Armenia is much closer to Coptic and Ethiopian Orthodox.
Orthodox, together with Latin America is marginally part of the West, having both descended from the classical West. All harkens backs to the Indo-Europeans (particularly the centum branch) being the ones who developed the Western world. This is why white people are naturally able to unite themselves so easily, with most being part of the Indo-European macro-race all in a relatively same area and take on the world.
@@GL-iv4rw
The ability of people to co-exist includes all races, the problem stems in the ability to find any reason to hate one another.
Putting things like race, ethnic background as a reason for most things is pretty narrow minded. if people wanted to unite themselves it would take breaking communication barriers, settling major cultural clashes (norse human sacrifice vs christian all life matters, a religious example but you get the point) and a bit of open mindness which by a bit i mean not branding an entire group of people by one's actions. Anyway it's not ethnic background that unites people
Here in the UK we are pretty united and ethnically diverse, using race, ethnicity for anything outside medicine (there are biological differences and they shouldn't be ignored, black people have more melanin and are less likely to get skin cancer) and other niche occasions, is looking at the world in a dumb way, which only encourages other people to do the same and make poor decisions. If you view race as a reason to love someone, someone will view race as a reason to hate someone because you made race a reason to do anything.
Naturally speaking, nature sucks, if you like the idea of being an animal and having to kill to survive, letting the weak die and so on, good for you but i don't.
The comment was talking about a religious divide which had nothing to do with ethnicity and race so your reply wasn't only malicious for afore-mentioned reasons, it was literally uncalled for.
@@whitefox8376 Theres a limit to the level of difference you can tolerate, until you can find a higher common denominator. Ethnics in the UK are still white, are still Indo-Europeans and still part of the Western civilization - hallmark of democracy. Easterners such as China are much too different for you to co-exist with, you guys are just not ready to reconcile with such vast difference of a world. Them being yellow, Sino-Tibetans and part of the Eastern civilization - hallmark of meritocracy. Total polar opposite
I just love how the map at 22:15 is describing how countries conquered by the mongols inherited authoritarianism, and the only one that isn’t included in this rule is mongolia
Being the ruling class, they didn't really have to face the horrors caused by their conquests
They didn't inherit autocracy as Mongol Empire was not an autocratic society itself (they had khan elections), on the contrary the autocracy was an answer to the nomadic threat in order to consolidate all the resources of the state to confront Mongols. Moreover, autocracy has more to do with the orthodoxy, where the Church was almost always loyal to the government and demanded the same from the people, so Mongolian invasion just proved this concept true in the eyes of our leaders but wasn't a focal point.
"It's all because of the Mongols" misses the fact just how rare were actual direct interactions between the conquered populace and the actual nomadic invaders. The same applied to Muscovy. The idea of some Mongol slave driver whipping authoritarianism into the sore back of a Ruthenian laborer is a myth.
@5:42,
The question of "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" was referenced by Thomas Aquinas when he was criticizing the traditional Medieval Scholasticism found in authors such as Duns Scotus, but there is no evidence that anyone in the Eastern Roman Empire or Western Europe ever actually extensively explored such a topic. Aquinas raised the question ironically to criticize the Scholastics' academic methods.
Its because his research is poor and more focused on glorifying northern European protestant culture as the "objectively superior" culture. He even went on a tirade to rationalize how the top down communist state capitalism of China actually not socialism because he knows that the clear reality of their economy rising to eclipse the free-trade western economic model doesn't actually fit in his very narrow world view.
@@TheEvolver311 How else should you view a culture that has literally a globe spanning reach? Orthodoxy has certainly showed its staying power, and is formidable... But to pretend it is on an equal footing with the British and American empires requires quite a stretch of the imagination.
What a great birthday gift :)
Don't spoil us too much XD
A merry Christmas to you Rudyard.
Keep up the good work and keep living that awesome life of yours👍
Happy birthday
@@IvorMektin1701 Thank you 😁
Orthodox, together with Latin America is marginally part of the West, having both descended from the classical West. All harkens backs to the Indo-Europeans (particularly the centum branch) being the ones who developed the Western world. This is why white people are naturally able to unite themselves so easily, with most being part of the Indo-European macro-race all in a relatively same area and take on the world.
As much as I'm loving the posts every other day now, I would prefer one every week or two over waiting as long as we did lol. thanks Rudyard
Orthodox, together with Latin America is marginally part of the West, having both descended from the classical West. All harkens backs to the Indo-Europeans (particularly the centum branch) being the ones who developed the Western world. This is why white people are naturally able to unite themselves so easily, with most being part of the Indo-European macro-race all in a relatively same area and take on the world.
@@GL-iv4rw Cool take dude. Has nothing to do with my comment though
Agree, I'd rather he had a consistent update schedule than have no videos for a month or 2 and then have 2 or 3 within a week of each other
@Frigidlava they migrated to Asia and became part of the Eastern world
@@reecev2087 its naturally easier for white ppl to reconcile themselves due to most having the same Indo-European root, from the same continent and solely developed Western civilization. Unlike Asia which is much more diverse. This is why whites are the dominant race. Future historians will look back at modern history and rename it the 'Western era' or the 'period of the West' or the 'White/European age' while their time period will become the new modern history.
This explanation is so badly needed after centuries of Western European centered misinformation and misunderstanding.
Orthodox, together with Latin America is marginally part of the West, having both descended from the classical West. All harkens backs to the Indo-Europeans (particularly the centum branch) being the ones who developed the Western world. This is why white people are naturally able to unite themselves so easily, with most being part of the Indo-European macro-race all in a relatively same area and take on the world.
but its still western european centered. Better than usual but...
This dude literally said that there was socialism in early medieval eastern rome.
@@G0TIMAN
Not ever social program is Socialism
@@christiandauz3742 For him state bureaucracy is socialism apparently.
Great video.
However a quick correction:
Constantine simply made Christianity legal.
Theodosious 1 made it the official religion in 380.
and kosovo is Serbia lol
@@pola5392 💀
@@pola5392 Long life to Serbian brothers! With respect from Russia
You've mentioned in passing in several videos now the Catholic Church banning marrying cousins in the Middle Ages, and how that affected society and European Civilization. I am both a Catholic and a college history major, so this doubly interests me. Could you either go into it more in depth at some point, or point me to some sources to research further? Thanks! and keep up the great work!
Never clicked faster in my life
5:37 The West was able to get a lot of knowledge about the Greek and Roman classics from Muslims during the Crusades, its just that the Muslims got their knowledge from trade and as part of peace treaties with the Byzantine Empire. The West also got a lot of knowledge directly from trade with the Byzantines, or from Byzantine scholars fleeing the Byzantium for the West as the Empire weakened. Both statements are true. There isn't any contradiction.
The Arab world also got much of their knowledge from Syriac language texts written by Oriental Orthodox Christians and Christians of the Church of the East, both living and writing within the Arab empire.
One of the reasons why it didn't take long for Arabs to capture Syria, Egypt and other Eastern Roman lands inhabited by Miaphysite Christians is because of just how much Constantinople despised and persecuted them while they were within its reach. Ironically, that's also how a thousand years later the Reformation survived in Hungary while it was eradicated by the Habsburgs in Bohemia-because most of Hungary was at this point ruled by the Ottomans who didn't care one bit about Christian sectarian divisions.
You have to take in consideration that Russia suffered the most from the two world wars... they also had two revolutions in the 20th centary and also catastrophic market economy transition in the 90s. Considering all of this... they still remaind a country with 5th economy in terms of PPP and very high human developent index, and also 2nd most powerful army and very lowe debt. Now compare this to the "civilized" catholic world of America and Southern Europe
I doubt anybody from the west cares about that. They are to biased to consider this
Yeah, you can cut Russias head and 4 come back.
This is why i think Russia won't collapse in the coming centuries
The Arabs used to call tedious, overly philosophical and unhelpful conversations "byzantine conversations".
That’s very funny because the Romans used to say the Greeks were blabber mouths who think too much also. It seems the Greeks got this reaction from many peoples. Lol
broski, I've watched your channel grow and grow and I've seen your content develop into one of my personal favorite channels on youtube. keep it up my man
My mother’s side of the family is Ukrainian and Georgian so thank you for this video.
I'd be interested in future videos on the Byzantines, you talked about several interesting topics that could be future videos from religion to culture. The part about the Balkans developing into a country like France seems like an interesting alternate history too.
Mountainous regions in the center of a map rarely develop in their own separate states. Imagine if Alps, Pyrenees or Caucasus united as a single entity.
Though I might be missing something here. If you have any counterexamples I'd be glad if you showed them to me.
Orthodox, together with Latin America is marginally part of the West, having both descended from the classical West. All harkens backs to the Indo-Europeans (particularly the centum branch) being the ones who developed the Western world. This is why white people are naturally able to unite themselves so easily, with most being part of the Indo-European macro-race all in a relatively same area and take on the world.
That was some pretty dubious speculation, France had nearly a quarter of Europe's population at points, I doubt the Balkans with it's rugged geography would ever produce a long-term state. I mean SW slavs even all speak the same language and look at their unity.
Toynbee did write in "A Study of History" that Orthodox civilisation dealt a mortal blow to itself in the Byzantine-Bulgar wars, perhaps there's something to that.
Also, do you want to imagine a world of 60 million Albanians?
what do you mean "developing into country like france seem like interesting alternate history"?
the byzantines did have the largest and most populated cities during the early medieval ages and the bulgarian empire was medieval hub to slavic culture you can't say a super power can't come out atleast one of those 2
Whatifalthist calling out Peter Zeihan’s central thesis. Thats something I never thought I’d see coming.
Orthodox, together with Latin America is marginally part of the West, having both descended from the classical West. All harkens backs to the Indo-Europeans (particularly the centum branch) being the ones who developed the Western world. This is why white people are naturally able to unite themselves so easily, with most being part of the Indo-European macro-race all in a relatively same area and take on the world.
What exactly is Peter Zeihan's central thesis?
@@Bronky69 That America’s geography is so perfect that it can’t be screwed up no matter how hard we try.
You keep missing the 25 million Orthodox Copts in Egypt. And your old maps ignore the north African Orthodox church as the majority. Also in Lebanon Syria Palestine had some majorities too
They are much more less than 25 million.
this is eastern orthodoxy not oriental orthodoxy
@@avoider707 just add the bretheren. Geez
There are only 10 million of them
9:13 thank you for this point. Those who have read Eastern Roman and Byzantine history in depth know that the Romans of the East face existential crisis after crisis in late antiquity and the middle ages year after year.
Let me summarize Orthodox civilization in 1 sentence: "And then things got worse."
Nah, thats Africa and Latin America for you.
@@guhr9007 right now Africa is doing better than the decolonization period, and arguably for the natives in places such as Congo and Kenya, better than the colonization period. I'm not as educated on Latin America though.
Nope. It's about up and downs. As he said in the end, "pull themselves up from the jaws of death"
Actually no
As it stands now, Orthodox civilization is the weakest of the major civilizations (outside of nukes), but it's perk is that Orthodoxy is growing rapidly in the west, and religiousity is seeing a rebound growth in the east. Orthodox society is more immune to decadence than any of the other civilizations so when the similar demographic collapses caused by decadence hit all other civilizations simultaneously, the Orthodox civilization will possibly be seeing a birth rate recovery. Also, global warming is going to disproportionally benefit Russia with expansion of vast agricultural lands, ice free ports along the arctic, and Russia's long history of being effectively land locked will end.
Eventually I’d like a video about how to make a civilisation.
Break down all the elements and what certain features cause and what happens when combined with others.
That would be cool
Agreed, would be really cool.
There іs a huge mistake associating everything Eastern European with Russian and vice versa
It makes sense actually, Russia is the big boy there and it has probably more than half of said region's population. It is the trend maker.
@@gustavoritter7321 kinda, but if you subtract non-muscovite people and take only European part, which is also largely exaggerated, then you see that it's even less then half population
@@timurermolenko2013 Subtracting ‘non-Muscovites’ is like removing the Great Plains from the US. Now you have a massive gaping hole.
@@timurermolenko2013 But why would you do that? lol
@@innosam123 Exactly, subtracting non-Muscovites would be like subtracting non-Anglo Saxons from the US, the country would just fall apart and it wouldn't be the same thing.
Eastern Orthodoxy wasn't entirely opposed to classical philosophy. It holds Socrates, Plato and Aristotle to a very high regard, especially compared to other philosophical schools of thought and that's mostly because orthodox theology was greatly influenced by their ideas since the early church fathers had studied under schools that followed their way of thinking. It opposed philosophies before and after "the great Hellenes", with neoplatonism as their most hated enemy.
Having lived in Russia for 5 years and having a wife from there I'd like to add a couple things.
The point you make about the government and church working together is spot on, in fact if I remember correctly the two headed eagle of the Byzantine and later Russian Empires is actually representative of this, one head for the state, the other for the church.
Also while the modern era might not be best for them, the one thing I notice though about all the ordinary Russians I met there is they all have a strong sense of identity and patriotism, even if they despise the corruption and incompetence of their leaders they are all proud to be Russian and highly defensive of this. They are a people proud of their past, but they lack faith and belief in their system and future.
Many want families but lack the means for it, hence the low birthrates, and the government seems unable to raise living standards to allow family formation/expansion.
In Russia the saying goes that the price of everything rises, but wages stay the same.
This is likely due to the fact that government and internal stability is reliant on the goodwill of the oligarchs who in exchange for near monopolies, either due to being given state-owned firms or horrifying amounts of red tape that prevents competitions, support the state. This drives down efficiency and productivity that are needed to raise living standards, so Russia is caught in an economic rut.
Breaking the Oligarchs' power would seem to be the obvious solution, until you realize they'll leave, take their money with them, and leave Russia without capital to develop and throw the country back into economic turmoil.
So it's a conundrum, how to fix the modern Orthodox Civilization. I don't know, the only thing I can think of is hope the next generation is raised to be honorable. Perhaps they can fix it.
Yep or simply replace them with actually competent ppl
Well, Russia is Russia. USA's neighbors want to emulate USA, while Russia's neighborhood wants to be anything except Russia.
Russia is basically Moscow's colony. The average wage in Moscow is somewhere near 1500 USD, while the rest of Russia lives with wages near 200 300 USD.
@@DerDop is it wage by month?
@@DerDop the irony and sadness of the statement
@@vyktorehon5995 monthly. The poorest European citizens ( by European I mean EU) has the purchasing power of an average Russian, but the reality is worse, since the mathematics are being distorted by Moscow's wages.
Russians are nice people, but Russian elites are acting like they're serf owners. Use Google Streets, navigate in Moscow, center and periferies, and then choose another city.
Also, keep in mind that Russia is the richest country when it comes to resources and that Russians are smart and hard working people, yet they live like...
I've been listening to the "History of Byzantium podcast" and hearing you say things that happen in the Narrative or are said in the end of the century episodes is really satisfying.
Orthodox, together with Latin America is marginally part of the West, having both descended from the classical West. All harkens backs to the Indo-Europeans (particularly the centum branch) being the ones who developed the Western world. This is why white people are naturally able to unite themselves so easily, with most being part of the Indo-European macro-race all in a relatively same area and take on the world.
Dude your content is absolutely incredible! I've learned so much about the history of the world cuz of you.
The comments suggest a hint of fascist rhetoric. It's not communism that was the issue, it was state autocracy. There is a major difference between the two. Moreover capitalism is failing in the west. In another 50 years, the pro US/western comments will be a joke to a dominant autocratic China and emerging India. Russia is capitalistic today but autocratic. It is still plagued by the same problem. Open your eyes and think critically.
@Frigidlava Agreed about the regimes but remember the proletariat will always be the majority thereby implying democracy, neither is capitalism as it is even more autocratic as its aim is monopoly. That is the reason that elites pump a whole load of cash into promoting minimum government services, worker rights and minimum wages. As pointed above at least communism implies collectivism which was ignored by these regimes that followed them. I think the ultimate capitalist state is China by being both autocratic and capitalist at the same time. It will come to dominate the world in the next 3 decades, guaranteed. Second best is the US which is a duopolistic party system that is capitalistic. I would rather live in western or northern Europe or Oceania which is more socialistic and multi party.
@@louvendran7273 Now it's good living in Western or Northern Europe because they sacrifice the far future for today's well-being.
I'm loving this understanding civilizations onslaught
I’m from Ukraine, I was brought up orthodox but I don’t know much about it. Thank you for this video
Illyrians weren't as large as you make them out to be. For example Thracians were in modern day Bulgaria and Romania, not Illyrians.
This chanel is not an official history channel. So this guy speak what he think it is right. He barely mentioned First Bulgarian empire. It is like it (First Bulgarian empire) didn't played role in christionizing Rus and give it the Cyrillic alphabet.
Curently I read a book "History as a test for intelligence". Somehow couple of people come to Balkans and decided to make Bulgaria and surprisingly Bulgaria is at the same place till this day. Don't forget that Bulgaria was neghbouring with the greatest empire at that time East Roman empire.
Yes.Also, Illirians, Thracians and Dacians were closely related and were a part of a greater Paleo-Balkanic branch of Indo-Europeans.
2 uploads in a week?!?!
You're amazing
12:41 I was raised as a Christian and later left when I grew up. Later on out of interest I spent a few months studying and annotating scripture unique to the faith I was raised in as well as some background to it. I have to say that the second interpretation presented as the Orthodox one seems much more apparent to me, and it surprises me sometimes to talk to my Christian friends and learn they hold the first view and reject the second. Plenty of times in scripture, Christians are called upon to endure their suffering and take no care for their own sake, giving all to God, for their just reward will be in heaven. You're almost meant to take an oath of poverty. It seems that the people identifying themselves as Christian around me believe that one can be as rich or as poor, caring for their own as much as they can, and that what unites them ultimately is whether they believe or not. I suppose that allows for a variety of social classes and strata and a culture more prone to run away from suffering. Without being an expert, I can't really say which is the "correct" interpretation, I just find the second one here to be more compelling from a scriptural standpoint.
By the way, Georgians are actually part of the Eastern Orthodox Church. It’s the Armenians that are Oriental Orthodox. Both are orthodox though.
In the Orthodox world, Georgia is considered the lot of the Mother of God
How are they BOTH Orthodox?! Does the 4th Ecumenical Council not matter to you?!
0:36 he really said “mystery inside the nigga” lmfaoo
That's what I'm saying
😂😂😂😂
Or it could be “enigma” 0:36
Byzantines did NOT debate on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It arose as a XVII century critique of medieval scholastics. Even when it is claimed that this discussion took place, this question is attributed to Thomas Aquinas, who in no way was Byzantine.
My go-to channel for revising historical facts and arbitrarily bending definitions! I look forward to more videos! 👍
as a greek who is intrested in history this is an amazing video where you definitely understand the situation
Actually Nestorian Christianity was only dominant in mesopotamia,The rest of the middle East was split between The Dyophysite Eastern Orthodox Church and The Miaphysite Oriental Orthodox Church
The heart of respecting and understanding true history is viewing it from an impartial point of view when it comes to involved parties and from the cultural, social and economical tendencies of the time of interest(understanding the zeitgeist). As someone from the orthodox civilization I have to say your understanding on the subject is incredibly accurate.
I know it's mentioned in the video, but I want to stress that the term "Byzantine" was never used by the Eastern Romans. The term gained popularity among scholars in the west after the collapse of the Eastern Roman Empire, so to call the ERE Byzantium is an anachronism. Besides, it'd be like calling every French person a "Parisian"
To be more correct is to call every French a Lutetian, the old name for Paris.
Could you make a video about Gobekli-Tepe and speculate a bit why, for example, it was intentionally buried? And which language did the builders of it speak? And which cultures of Eurasia did they influence the most? (Sorry for repeating)
So many questions, virtually zero answers.
I guess the best way to put it is the ancient Mesopotamian viewed whoever built Gobekli-Tepe (I'll call them the Taurans as that's the mountain GT is near) and the other hundreds and thousands of things hidden beneath the earth the same way we view the ancient Mesopotamians now.
Tauran Civilization EST. 12,000 Yrs Ago | Sumerian Civilization EST. 6,000 Yrs. Ago
The only difference is their stories were not written (or they were and we haven't found them yet or destroyed by conquerors) but were passed down orally until writing. Remember, the oldest story that we know of ever written, the Epic of Gilgamesh starts off with "In those ancient days." and it actually believed the Sumerian place of Du-Ku is Gobekli-Tepe.
I mean we only figured out Sumeria existed 300 years ago and the Taurans 26 years ago.
The truth is we won't know unless we invent time travel or we make another massive discovery, hopefully with writing or at least paintings and carvings. A tragedy really how much history is lost.
That Modern Orthodox part at the end hits so fucking hard bro
Everyting in that last part is completley true an precise
If only our politicians TRIED
And yes we have produced many great minds
Poor us man our young population is so inteligent but everyone is leaving for the west
No. Orthodoxy is not Manichean. Orthodox is indeed highly ascetical, a quality which Western civilization now lacks albeit share same Christian heritage. The Early Church has spent centuries fighting heresies, and among them, Gnosticism ranks as the first heresies (with Simon Magus in Acts 8 as the first heresiarch). The main differences here is that Orthodox believe that the material world and the body are inherently good, but due to the Fall, it needs to be glorified through emptying ourselves from sinful tendencies so that Grace can enter and return it to the original state. This is diametrically opposed by the Gnostics which believe materials are inherently evil and need to be destroyed in order for the soul to be free. The latter, strongly exhibit Platonism and Neo-Platonism tendencies. In fact, Neo-Platonism has been disturbing the Church for centuries as it is technically root of all heresies, like: It is impossible for Christ who is God to become truly Man at same time (Arians, Apollinarian, Docetist, Euthycians), or it is impossible for the Icons to convey God's Grace and can be venerated since those things are mundane (Iconoclast), or it is impossible for Baptism and Eucharist to bring Regeneration and truly be Body and Blood of Christ (like modern Protestantism which also has roots on Bogomils and Tondrakians). Anti-material tendency is strongly associated with Far Eastern religions, who fell to extreme destructive path to attain salvation (like burning themselves in a pyre) or fell to the equally opposite destructive extreme by falsely believed that fleshly desires can be used to attain salvation "if properly used" (like Tantras or Daoist sexual practices). Those have nothing to do with Orthodox, Christian teachings.
While it is true that Orthodox Christianity is non-dual Orthodox history is very, very messy (just think of the Hesychast controversy) and I can forgive whatifalthist for being confused on that front. The differences between Western and Eastern Christianity are deceptively subtle and people used to Western brands of Christianity will naturally be confused as they miss just how many worlds apart the Orthodox faith really is from modern Western Christianity.
I was thinking about writing specifically about that issue, when your comment appeared. It is sad to hear about Orthodoxy being manichean, when there are so many orthodox writings against them, as well as depiction of our teaching that spiritual equals good and flesh equals bad, when as you've rightfully said that Orthodoxy is non-dual and spiritual things as well as spirits themselves can be bad.
And in the video, while displaying a Western outlook on the morality, author showed a more manichean picture which doesn't show real catholic struggle against different issues just after the split as well as not showing richness of Orthodox thought, when several things could coexist in theological sphere creating possibility of theologumena. Thank you for your comment! It's good to see a true statement about our faith.
On the other issue, describing russian or eastern roman economical policy as socialistic is a misleading method. This and other things like this create a very distorted picture of Orthodox world and it's worldview.
Love all these careful summaries of so many different civilizations.
Quick question, how do you think the Orthodox world could regain its strength? What could they do to save themselves?
Imo in an ideal world good Christians could separate from the governments around them and be prepared to live a war that finally fulfills the cries of the fallen of the prior reconquests. Easier said than done, but with faith and with power, it's most definitely possible. Perpendicular society that may withstand any invader.
@@antonioreconquistador it's just the problem with that is that a very substantial minority if not arguably the majority of countries like Russia have lost faith due to communism and it's stance on Christianity. But that would be cool.
@@thepickle5214 yeah :/
Nothing they can do. Christianity is dying, just like other religions. There may be some other form of spirituality that will find proponents in the future (think "quantum mechanics is proof that God exists" kind of rhetoric), but this mantle will not be picked up by Christianity. I'm thinking probably something along the likes of scientific Confucianism.
@@yarpen26 Science is dead. Science, rationalism, and modernism were slain by Godel, it is theoretically impossible for it to ever form a coherent metaphysics, much less an empirical or rational one. It's taking the world a while to come to terms with this new reality, the west went all in on this worldview with the Enlightenment, but as postmodernism has demonstrated, it will fall.
I love these back to back uploads!
On the patriarchy map at 11:31 you missed Antioch. Historically far more important than Jerusalem.
Damn man you are blowing up with content. Keep it up!
Proud Orthodox here. Great video, come to our local Greek festivals. There’s good one in Elkins park, Broomall, Upper Darby- I remember correct you live near Philly
Part I 03:07
Part II 06:45
Part IV 15:09
DID I MISS SOMETHING????
This is definitely one of the best channels on youtube
Wtf u doin here
True
@@lionheartmapping im everywhere
No it isnt, its just a jew making revisionistic propaganda
@@alexmag342 he isn't jewish dummy
"They were respectful for local religious rights". This is the funniest joke ever.
well tatar muslims lived in russia for hundreds of years, as did various pagan animist tribes. crimean tatars did too, before stalin and his shenanigans. caucasus was a different story of course, but large exterminations only happened in the 19th century because the government just could not understand how it can make some tribes loyal to them (those that submitted did not suffer the same fate afaik)
@@jeanssold2131 Yeah Stalin was a genocidal maniac, not to the level of poeple like Hitler or Mao but still close enough.
@@Lazer-bp9lf That was in reference to Tsarist Russia though
@@Lazer-bp9lf Understatement of the century, Stalin was right up there with Hitler and Mao, in fact his deathtoll is often estimated considerably higher then Hitlers.
The core difference was that Stalins brutality was primarily aimed towards his own people and the Europeans he conquered(Doesnt mean he was nice to the Caucasian people and Asians) when we look at pre war atrocities we see mass killings, man made famines, gulags, political killings etc. When we look at during and after the war we start firstly seeing an army that goes on a complete rampage, mass rape, mass killings, mass pillagjng and not just to Germans but also to the Poles, Balts etc. We see the mass executions of Inteligentsia, Officers, Soldiers anyone who could even conceivably be a threat.
Stalins entire reign can best be described as one long and terrifying Red Terror, even those loyal to him werent safe.
As a Jew I can assure you that the Byzantines did NOT respect OUR religious rights.
28:57 This map is wrong: Hungary never choosed communism. After ww1 it happened as a silent coup of the communists, when they forced the incompetent Karolyi to resign. After ww2 it happened because of the soviet occupation.
Hungary during that time were more fascist than the nazis. The communists did the right thing.
@Fact: Islam is wrong tell that to the almost 40000 jews murdered by them in 3 months and then the following 80000 jews deported and enslaved. Or the sick jewish hospital patients they shot as soon as they started to lose grip of power.
@@dougjaffray-StMoP- sure you aren't thinking of Croatia?
@@catmonarchist8920 100%
@Atlas yeah because stopping genocidal regimes is such a bad thing.
As a Greek, 30:22 made my heart flutter a bit
The damn Turcophile didn't recognise Cyprus as Orthodox though
@@Thomas-u8q nor Ethiopia
Take a break bro. Your country exists since 1830. Way after Eastern roman empire was conquered.
Such an important topic and I agree in spirit with a lot in this video. The West has misunderstood, mischaracterised and often mistreated Orthodox peoples for centuries. The situation in Ukraine can only be understood within that context (though there is no appetite in mainstream Western media to admit this).
Your argument that the merchant class never gained dominance in Orthodox civilization completely missed the history of the pre-Tzarist Russian city of Novgorod. Otherwise this was pretty good 👍
Edit: oh also I would have at least briefly mentioned a bit about the pre-Mongol influence of the Norse/Scandinavian nations and peoples on the Rus area as well. Trade between the Vikings and Byzantine Empire went straight through Rus by river
He actually was talking specifically about Slavs here, in something of a conflation. It's actually not a definite argument to make anyway since first the non-local dominance over trade was first and foremost a function of the proximity/abundance of Germans (with the long expertise) or Jews (who were legally not able to do anything else to survive). The concentration of the foreign capital was significant not just in, say, Orthodox Romania but also in Catholic Poland, Bohemia or the Baltics. Germans and Jews were in turn far less prominent in the Southern Balkans and particularly Russian interior (in fact, Russia was first exposed to actual masses of Germans and Jews in the 18th century, hundreds of years after Poland was) which left the locals with more in turm of breathing space, but still didn't really foster any sort of better development.
All in all, the problem is, just about any trouble he lists with "Orthodox" civilization could very well be ascribed to Catholic Poland all the way until the fall of communism. Their past 30 years' rise vis a vis Orthodox neighbors was completely unprecedented. The same applies to the Baltics.
More please. Awesome content. I dig the upload schedule.
What was said at 30:29? I distinctly heard something, it might have been a bit of editing but if it was intentional i'm rather curious now
Indeed, hit the nail on the head-When I tell people that my knowledge of Cyrillic enabled me to cruise through Ancient Greek at first at University, and explaining how the East Slavic world is culturally Byzantine, relatively well educated people take a while to come around and recover from the shock of what they heard
Excellent video, always a pleasure watching these ones
This is an amazing account of Orthodox and Russian beginnings, your channel is gold.
As historian to historian I don't tend to offend you with my comment, so sorry in advance for my language, but English is not my mother tongue.
Ignoring the Bulgarian factor in contributing to orthodox Christianity, also spreading of it, is fairly incompetent. It is well known fact that thanks to the bulgarian church and language (Cyrillic) during the cultural golden period of Tsar Simeon. A lot of emissaries/priests were infact sent to russia to give them a language in which to write and read thus spreading orthodox christianity to the north, and to all slavic tribes and groups. One of the reason why to this day in russian churches priests still sing and read text in old slavonic (or old bulgarian scripture and language)and use the cyrilic language not latin. A lot of books written during the reign of the 1st and 2nd Bulgarian empire were transfered to Russia, while bulgaria was falling under Ottoman rule. One more, there was a period of time when Bulgars had complete orthodox domination and is not something to be taken with light heart. Nowadays Bulgaria find itself in weak period of time, one of the reason its history to this day is not so good familiar to many historians, so as historian to historian I wish that you take a deeper and meaningful look at it. I hope for understanding.
As a historian... you are mixing MACEDONIAN ortodox history here.
Incredible video!
I would have a suggestion for a video about understanding countries that are unique in their respective region and do not necessary fit into their "Archetype". Some suggested countries/cultures would be: Romania (a latin island amidst a slavic sea), Hungary & Finland (Fino-Ugric countries that have survived Europe), Kazakhstan (and the other -stan countries), the Continental Asian South Eastern Countries (Myanmar, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia) and the central american countries & caribbean.
I think a lot of these cultures are extremely underrated and there are plenty of people who would like to find more/find what the opinion of a knowledgeable American is.
Personally, I find the history of Central-Eastern Europe particularly interesting and underrated, especially when taking into account the richness of some of the cultures here (Czech, Romanian, Polish, Hungarian, Yugoslavian, Post Byzantine-Greek (not to be confused with Classical Greek))
Due to proximity and history Romania is slavic in everything but language .
@@090giver090 by that logic, turks and south slavs are greek in all but language
In the case of the Hungarians, they seem to be more of a finnic speaking people that adopted Turkic lifestyle. Even their name, Magyar and Hungary, takes stronger influence from the Turkics then the Finno-Uralics. I'd list them with the Bulgarians and the Finns with the Estonians
Speaking of Orthodox civilizations, could you please do a video on the Tigray War? You're one of my favorite geo/history RUclipsrs and it'd be really cool to see your perspective on the situation!
been traveling Europe for months now. I loved seeing, visiting and praying in the orthodox ☦ churches of Romania, Serbia, Montenegro, Bulgaria, Bosnia and Albania. I love the designs of their churches and have been studying Orthodox a lot recently
This is by far one of the best videos I've ever watched about the orthodox christian religion before. I see a civilization who didn't only survive some of the ugliest diseases (you either left that out intantionally or not), fought to it's near death against almost all empires, sunk the fleet of the "prophet" and is still standing today as one of the strongest among of all civilizations.
Strength, but at what cost?
what were the “socialist economic measures that crushed the economy” that were introduced by the balkan / Illyrian emperors that are mentioned at 6:25? i have a hard time believing a policy from antiquity can be correctly described as socialist. applying post-industrial 19th and 20th century terms to a classical society doesn’t really translate. the economy had already been in a disastrous state for some time before they rose to power anyways.
i also think the claim made seconds before that one is also dubious, that one reason the empire fell was from the expansion of government done by the Illyrian emperors. it was a measure taken to stop constant civil war by reducing the amount of power a lot of positions had and it also helped rebuild a lot the empire after the crisis of the third century by adding more government officials that can actually focus on things like rebuilding efforts in the country side. i get that during this time the groundwork for feudalism began to be lay but i don’t think that was because of the expansion of government.
I wouldn't add the Rus as an orthodox civilization before the mongol conquest. Those were closer to merchant republics than centralized empires up until the mongols came and destroyed all of that and replaced it with a centralized power structure to rule the whole region.
EDIT: Looks like I talked too early in the video.
What I wouldn't give to spend a day with this guy.
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Why
Great video, out of curiosity will you also be doing videos on the Indian, Islamic, and East Asian civilizations as well?
I've already watched the Katarina documentaries, as well as Sophia, the Romanovs & Rasputin. All Russian language . (have to read close caption), all extremely well made.
I LOVE these understanding civilisations, they help me understand so much more about why these cultures have the values and behaviours they do