How Civilizations Cycle & Collapse | Samo Burja and Rudyard Lynch

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  • Опубликовано: 18 ноя 2024

Комментарии • 157

  • @danstvguy
    @danstvguy Месяц назад +193

    Rudyard might want to start some long form podcasts similar to Dan Carlin ... he is rapidly becoming a budding star.

    • @ivanrandallorndorffjr.412
      @ivanrandallorndorffjr.412 Месяц назад +8

      Agreed. I was thinking rogan. He was on Danny Jones not long ago, very good episode.

    • @ModemMage
      @ModemMage Месяц назад +9

      I've been watching him for a few years and there's been a dramatic change in his content, absolutely for the better. Started out exactly how the name sounds, just long from counterfactuals. Now it's great anthropology discussions

    • @77bluesilver
      @77bluesilver Месяц назад +3

      How has he not been on Rogan yet?!

    • @pasoslargos9329
      @pasoslargos9329 Месяц назад +5

      History 102 is his long form podcast

    • @HanzHermannHoppe
      @HanzHermannHoppe 4 дня назад

      ​​@@pasoslargos9329he could go into way more detail though. His episodes are all 90 minutes +-30 whereas carlins are 3-9 hours per topic. Hes clearly capable of doing this, his bibliographies are large and comprehensive enough and he has the presentation skill to pull it off it'd just be a different style of presenting, more storytelling and narrative driven than the claim > context > argument format he currently uses. And way more time lol, which is a hard sell especialy if he wants to keep the cohost format. So i get why he doesnt do this, it's just a shame because hed be good at it.

  • @sole__doubt
    @sole__doubt 25 дней назад +7

    Excellent talk. I think Rudyard really shines when hes in a conversation and Samo is just such an interesting thinker. Cant wait for the next episode.

  • @amandacollyer645
    @amandacollyer645 Месяц назад +49

    I can’t believe more people aren’t here for this convo…

    • @michaelmaroney1660
      @michaelmaroney1660 Месяц назад +3

      Far too many just do not believe that anything like this can happen in the current age that they live in. Yes head in the sand syndrome.

    • @Leonhart_93
      @Leonhart_93 Месяц назад

      It's probably shadow banned by yt.

  • @jonlannister345
    @jonlannister345 Месяц назад +32

    Weird thing is that for a lot of human history there were just groups of wild people living in mountains and deep forests, even in the middle of civilisations.

  • @barryandreasen6656
    @barryandreasen6656 Месяц назад +89

    I don't know about my civilization but I'm working hard to keep my family, community going.

    • @Dionysus-gv9lz
      @Dionysus-gv9lz Месяц назад +5

      Very pragmatic approach!

    • @CrustaceousB
      @CrustaceousB Месяц назад +4

      I direly regret not having taken this path in life. This is who will survive the coming cataclysm..

    • @barryandreasen6656
      @barryandreasen6656 Месяц назад +5

      @@CrustaceousB it's not too late read as much as you can about basic survival and pick up a craft that will be useful in a community farming, animal husbandry, logging, medicine you don't have to be the founder of a community to be part of it don't give up hope and remember always be honest and trustworthy best of luck.

    • @silverback7348
      @silverback7348 Месяц назад +2

      This is the bedrock. Why do you think it is under such assault?

    • @bagel3703
      @bagel3703 Месяц назад

      Meditating off grid with your tradwife isn't going to save Western civilization.

  • @andrewblake2254
    @andrewblake2254 Месяц назад +12

    Brilliant talk guys. Angkor Wat is truly astonishing and i wondered when I saw it how such a vast civilisation could appear and disappear so recently without leaving much behind.

  • @selfrelience9384
    @selfrelience9384 Месяц назад +23

    The long-winded interruptions make this very difficult to watch. When Rudyard was close to making an interesting point he was consistently interrupted.

  • @tonypalmer9575
    @tonypalmer9575 Месяц назад +7

    The Chinese did have a very early system of movable type, long before Gutenberg. But they struggled with an ideographic form of writing that was difficult to industrialise - take a look at the Chinese language typewriter and see how complex it is. The impact of written language formulation is probably an expression of a civilisation's unconscious thinking, which makes it worth consideration.

    • @yoyoma17
      @yoyoma17 Месяц назад +1

      Cvilisation's unconscious thinking,? Hmmm, sounds like an interesting idea but I don't quite get it, can you elaborate?

    • @emrysmcwryn7902
      @emrysmcwryn7902 25 дней назад +2

      Humans are psychically connected to other memebers of their "tribe". This collective unconscious is personified as a or the god of the society. That entity is fueld by the dreams and unconscious thoughts of it's body- the minds of the people of a society.

  • @marywimmer5018
    @marywimmer5018 Месяц назад +6

    So so fascinating! I am looking forward to the next episode.

  • @NoOneToNoOne89
    @NoOneToNoOne89 Месяц назад +25

    Could you stop cutting Rudyard off to make random points? We get it, you know stuff. Completely detailing

    • @julesknight1511
      @julesknight1511 Месяц назад +4

      Agreed. He pulling various threads together to understand something and before he can finish its something like "this happened, that's there". I love history, but being able to recite facts isn't as rare as being able to correlate many things into a coherent idea

    • @DonG-1949
      @DonG-1949 Месяц назад +1

      smart people do this. different rules. also he's much older and well read than rudyard, bit of a master apprentice dynamic

    • @julesknight1511
      @julesknight1511 Месяц назад +2

      @@DonG-1949 What are you talking about? He interrupts Rudyard with casual info that does not build on Rudyards point nor contribute to the overall conversion, just repeated interruptions of inconsequential details - so that no thought is allowed to unfurl itself and be explored. He maybe a brillant fellow but he's the worst interviewer

    • @DonG-1949
      @DonG-1949 Месяц назад +1

      @@julesknight1511 yea it became a bit much as i kept listening

  • @cyber_spock
    @cyber_spock 25 дней назад +1

    Bro I can't tell when I've already listened to a pod since it gets uploaded in three places

    • @miyojewoltsnasonth2159
      @miyojewoltsnasonth2159 17 дней назад

      If "it gets uploaded in three places," I would suggest watching/listening to one of the three.
      *Reply to:* _"Bro I can't tell when I've already listened to a pod since it gets uploaded in three places"_

    • @cyber_spock
      @cyber_spock 17 дней назад +1

      @miyojewoltsnasonth2159 dude they're labeled different things and often edited to different lengths

  • @DavidEugeneIvey
    @DavidEugeneIvey 28 дней назад

    You dudes are excellent people!! I love your conversations and Rudyard, I watch all of your videos. Good work sir!

  • @n0ghri
    @n0ghri Месяц назад +34

    Stop interrupting Rudyard. Its incredibly annoying.

    • @qwjd8s693pt4kaun
      @qwjd8s693pt4kaun Месяц назад

      thank you for pointing it out
      I will know to at least put the speed up high
      btw RUclips RеVanced, people
      no ads, speed to up to x3, good sh1t

  • @MjJones2020
    @MjJones2020 Месяц назад +6

    This dude needs to stop cutting Rudyard off....we get it, you're very impressed by yourself.

  • @I_am_that_one_guy
    @I_am_that_one_guy Месяц назад +36

    I am a construction worker in the us, I independently came to these same conclusions just through pure observation.
    That's good news, consensus is being reached.

    • @paulrobert3325
      @paulrobert3325 Месяц назад +8

      I'm not an American but these observations make sense
      Academia is useless

    • @namestitanfallltscompeteti1789
      @namestitanfallltscompeteti1789 Месяц назад +4

      Same for me and i am a student in Germany, a lot of different people seem to reach the same conclusions recently

  • @TheHermeticist369
    @TheHermeticist369 Месяц назад +22

    Dude interrupts too much

    • @Appachoppa112
      @Appachoppa112 28 дней назад

      On top of all the sponsors 😂

  • @Christianevanwhite
    @Christianevanwhite 17 дней назад

    Enjoyed the conversation, thanks.

  • @mylifeisnapless
    @mylifeisnapless Месяц назад +7

    So when is the 3 hour conversation coming out?

  • @zoidberg444
    @zoidberg444 17 дней назад

    Interesting conversation.

  • @JAllanC12
    @JAllanC12 25 дней назад

    Please do this again, and repeat monthly or quarterly. Great scope and depth.

  • @WhoNeedsRogaine
    @WhoNeedsRogaine Месяц назад +1

    Thank you for making the adds chapters in the video

  • @jakecasselman7858
    @jakecasselman7858 Месяц назад +7

    Damn that interruption at around 35:10 was so cringe

  • @TheDanieldineen
    @TheDanieldineen Месяц назад +4

    A point about literacy in the Roman empire. Well over 50% of the empire were the slave class, if 100% of Roman citizens were literate, that would still be a small number of the overall population.

  • @tuckerprice5521
    @tuckerprice5521 День назад

    I think of the Roman emperor Constantine as the founder of what we would now recognize as Western Civilization. He was literally the one who combined the Christian and Roman influences you're talking about, since he was the first Christian emperor and reformed the empire drastically.

  • @WuhSuhDood
    @WuhSuhDood Месяц назад +24

    Interrupting is cringe

    • @QdogMcat
      @QdogMcat Месяц назад +5

      This guy needs to get a grip.

  • @astrobot702
    @astrobot702 Месяц назад +1

    Rudy is breaking out!! I'm very glad. 'Anthropology of The Karen' by far is one of my faves and a must listen to podcast from Whatifalthist...❤❤❤😂😂😂

  • @mason4354
    @mason4354 Месяц назад

    This Turpentine fella is pretty smart on history stuff

  • @jalcobo
    @jalcobo Месяц назад +4

    I read somewhere that Rudyard has 4-5 kids with 4-5 different black women.

    • @kevc3148
      @kevc3148 18 дней назад +1

      Bruh 😄

  • @lucaskuczek
    @lucaskuczek Месяц назад +2

    Rudyard might have the historical biblical definition of meek incorrect. The biblical definition is the correct definition, not the current one. Currently meek is synonymous with weak.
    The original definition could be summed up by a quote from Theodore Roosevelt.
    "speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far"

    • @Jack-np6db
      @Jack-np6db 24 дня назад

      Meek is synonymous with weak because it is weak. And quoting an Imperialist tyrant who singlehandedly destroyed the European and Aryan soul for post-modern globalism doesn't do you any favours. I have no doubt you wore a mask and got the vaccine, weak coward

  • @gearracing
    @gearracing Месяц назад

    Wonderful conversation

  • @bennett21
    @bennett21 Месяц назад +1

    Random guy in Florida confirming I am listening and did not get offended… 😜

  • @markmoores5347
    @markmoores5347 День назад

    Very interesting, but the bit about forest cover in the UK by 1700 is incorrect - forest had been declining in the UK for thousands of years by that point and was far lower than many other countries.

  • @rydrbrummett7335
    @rydrbrummett7335 Месяц назад +1

    Rudyard for president

  • @willlowry1573
    @willlowry1573 25 дней назад

    If you think about it, AI will provide the most accurate description of the headline discussion in the most clairvoyant type of perspective- as we go into more advanced stages of “human”acquiescence.

  • @alesalter7653
    @alesalter7653 Месяц назад +5

    Praise the Machine God. Cancel the infidels)))) In RAM we trust. All the souls go to the great cloud beyond)))) Eternal paradise of endless power and infinite computing))))))

  • @skyfall7110
    @skyfall7110 Месяц назад +1

    Awesome! New sub here

  • @rustyscrapper
    @rustyscrapper Месяц назад

    Trying to fight someone wearing a helmet with fake eyes and fake hands on the arms might throw off a fighter enough to have an advantage.
    An experienced fighter might actually aim for the decoys because of muscle memory.
    Most effectively if a combatant grabs a fake hand thinking it's the real hand, they are wide open to get stabbed by the real arm.

  • @alexglanz7406
    @alexglanz7406 Месяц назад +2

    Middle age monks developed science? Scientific method? In many early societies, shamans or religious persons practiced observation, documentation and experimentation. The motive may have been an immediate need, but does that invalidate it? There is nothing more basic than birth, the family unit, early education (both tactile and linear). Literacy was often restricted by profession or gender (yes, in Abrahamic cultures, too). Great conversation, though personally I like to start at the cradle, e.g., brain development, nutrition, left/right brain selection. I will look at other videos. Thank you so much! I have "slave class" status here in the States, but I do have Wi-Fi

  • @ToddMagnussonWasHere
    @ToddMagnussonWasHere Месяц назад +6

    I’m getting McKenna vibes from Samo around 48:00 about the Buddhist and Machine religion threads as they relate to the Singularity.
    I do agree with the cyclical nature of civilization. What I am curious about though is the ancient vs. modern representation of Subsaharan Africa, of which maybe less than a handful notable or detectable higher civilizations are accessible to Western literature. As insulting as it may sound, do we have a good measure of why that is or are we avoiding stepping in manure because of monetization?

    • @Fairbranksthecat
      @Fairbranksthecat Месяц назад +2

      My guess is since Africans are more adept to oral traditions instead of writing, the informations take more time to be coumpounded.

    • @johnnyboy2537
      @johnnyboy2537 Месяц назад +1

      @@Fairbranksthecat I'd bet on a lot of that information dying out unfortunately due to various reasons.

  • @spread4me75
    @spread4me75 Месяц назад +4

    Rudy is a brain stud!

  • @grantfrith9589
    @grantfrith9589 Месяц назад +3

    All the old god's are coming back now that the Christian one has been ousted from his position.
    I don't think society in the future will replicate the sophistication of what we've been able to achieve unless that part of our value system falls into another monotheistic enchantment.
    Best we've got is Sigourney weavers character in Galaxy Quest screaming "Look! I have one damn job to do on this ship 'IT'S STUPID!' but I'm going to do it..."
    She had to repeat the order for the computer...
    We're not sophisticated collectively without a grounding in our historical records and stories.
    Iain McGillchrist was right. Our rational hemisphere is by far the more prone to delusion...

  • @AttlasAllux
    @AttlasAllux Месяц назад +2

    Entropy is an absolute law on this plane of reality. No mechanical system, strategy, or solution based on the binary Human 2.0 paradigm can circumvent the laws of the physical universe. It becomes self-evident: the age of Human 2.0 must come to an end. It is time for us to make the critical upgrade to Human 3.0 ruclips.net/video/7djDy7kdPg0/видео.html
    TL:DW version: ruclips.net/video/dSL0onT-dJQ/видео.htmlsi=fQL0B3BIZbuAObDj

  • @hismajesty6272
    @hismajesty6272 Месяц назад +2

    As a Christian I think it isn’t that classical Christianity is anti hierarchy (for example the Church is hierarchically governed), it’s that hierarchies in Christian societies are geared toward helping those lower on the ladder, unlike say a Roman society, where upper class men were supposed to shun and abuse the poor.

  • @JeremyHelm
    @JeremyHelm 7 дней назад

    26:32 Jefferson / revolutions 26:50

    • @JeremyHelm
      @JeremyHelm 7 дней назад

      27:04 four or five refactorings

    • @JeremyHelm
      @JeremyHelm 7 дней назад

      55:46 civilizations phenomenological different

  • @bradtheunchad3192
    @bradtheunchad3192 Месяц назад

    I'd give it two more weeks.

  • @MidnightMoses-ow1ul
    @MidnightMoses-ow1ul 23 дня назад

    Over 4 years on and off in africa taught me this . I see the same cultures encroaching in the west at a Alarming rate.

    • @ARvsAK
      @ARvsAK 19 дней назад

      Makes me curious what their presence in the west taught them.

  • @dejalmer
    @dejalmer 19 дней назад

    on the discussion of how America is composed multiple american ethnicities and cultures. I grew up in South Texas and due to my field and the job situation I had to move to Ohio for work.
    The culture of the people around me is similar in some ways to the culture of where I grew up, but different in various other ways. The most striking thing to me is the pride in the state. In Texas the shape of the state is literally everywhere its inescapeable. Its like the marathon logo in bungie games post marathon its everywhere. Thats comepletely untrue for Ohio. Its on signs for state roads and thats basically it. State symbols are rarely displayed in Ohio outside of an official capacity where as in Texas they are ubiquitous. Prior to moving to Ohio I had falsely assumed that every state had major state pride on the level of Texas.

  • @cdevidal
    @cdevidal Месяц назад

    I'm that random guy in Florida and I'm offended

  • @psikeyhackr6914
    @psikeyhackr6914 Месяц назад

    When have any societies engaged in planned obsolescence? Did the Romans have washing machines and refrigerators to be redesigned to become obsolete?
    Where is the data on the annual depreciation of automobiles purchased by American consumers since Sputnik? Oh wait, our economists with PhDs did not incorporate that into the Net Domestic Product equation.
    What do you mean economists do not talk about NDP?

  • @serdoubleyou6239
    @serdoubleyou6239 Месяц назад

    This was hard to listen to only because the host wouldn't let his guests finish their thoughts.

  • @kevc3148
    @kevc3148 18 дней назад

    How do you talk about the stark change in wealth of the Spanish empire without mentioning the money men being expelled from yet another country tho

  • @drunvert
    @drunvert 26 дней назад +1

    We need to restrict voting rights to people that have skin in the game. If you are not paying taxes or do not reach the threshold to pay federal taxes, you should not vote.

    • @kevc3148
      @kevc3148 18 дней назад +1

      We're sooo far past that point lmao it's parallel civilization time broski

  • @aaronwilkinson8963
    @aaronwilkinson8963 17 дней назад

    If they call the Time when Constantine become emperor start of the middle age's or the Dark age. Then can we say we have already entered a dark age in our own Time. The signs of a dark age is already here

  • @hughjass7914
    @hughjass7914 Месяц назад +2

    Isms exist so Ugmos can date. That is all.

  • @mr.ferg0112
    @mr.ferg0112 Месяц назад

    The way Plato presents his Republic does not reflect the classical Greek zeitgeist. Plato is more alike to western civilization than ancient Greece

  • @mattstachelek3410
    @mattstachelek3410 Месяц назад +2

    What about the anthropology of Australia? Or Antarctica?😂😂

  • @noway2563
    @noway2563 22 дня назад

    10 years max

  • @death2all79zx
    @death2all79zx Месяц назад

    How many podcasts does the egghead with glasses actually run?

  • @albarosolis5969
    @albarosolis5969 Месяц назад

    I have a suggestion I know I'll be laughed at, but start with the thought Jesus Christ is God incarnate, and he really has paid for our sins. Therefore, the Old Testament is true, and God is telling us that he is working everything as he planned
    But before you start, pray and ask him to show you who he is and if it is his perfect will he will reveal himself to you and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free. Lord Jesus Christ, I pray that you have mercy on us and save us glory be to God

  • @brakefaded
    @brakefaded Месяц назад +1

    Why you got a problem with Florida people 😂😅

    • @cdevidal
      @cdevidal Месяц назад +2

      I'm that random guy in Florida and I'm offended

  • @miyojewoltsnasonth2159
    @miyojewoltsnasonth2159 17 дней назад

    17:28 "Jesus Christ was literate."
    Do we actually know Jesus was literate?

  • @panzer00
    @panzer00 24 дня назад

    Another 50 11 years

    • @miyojewoltsnasonth2159
      @miyojewoltsnasonth2159 17 дней назад

      "Another 50 11 years"
      What are you talking about?

    • @panzer00
      @panzer00 17 дней назад

      @miyojewoltsnasonth2159 if you know, you know; I guess you just dont know

    • @фанатКуплинова-ь1е
      @фанатКуплинова-ь1е 14 часов назад

      @@miyojewoltsnasonth2159 It's either them looking too old or some weird pedo code talk shit

  • @rikardstevvon3618
    @rikardstevvon3618 Месяц назад +3

    This conversation is antiflowing and unbearable to listen to.

  • @harrybaulz666
    @harrybaulz666 Месяц назад

    Chicken little the sky is falling😅

  • @__-bz7wh
    @__-bz7wh Месяц назад +1

    Chudnation rising ...

  • @flhxri
    @flhxri Месяц назад

    The interruptions make this unlistenable

  • @MakeyMakes
    @MakeyMakes 21 день назад

    10:04 lol, he wrong cause he looked to man for the answer. The real answer is our Lord's Kingdom. But the neanced one probably mentions what he did 😏

  • @saltMagic
    @saltMagic Месяц назад

    One guy speaks in salads, and cuts people off. The other stuck to his points.

  • @flipp081
    @flipp081 23 дня назад

    It's incredibly annoying when Samo Burja constantly interrupts. Lost my respect for him.

  • @AncientRylanor69
    @AncientRylanor69 Месяц назад

    2

  • @jeffstracco-dr7pp
    @jeffstracco-dr7pp 11 дней назад

    Dear RUclips algorithm- why do you keep sending me this guys “bull session” talks? And hilarious bull sessions it is! 😂 Gross generalizations made by people with no apparent qualifications that are simultaneously condescending. These guys need to get out and experience the real world.😂😂😂😂😂

  • @overlordisgoogle8431
    @overlordisgoogle8431 Месяц назад

    Considering Europe outside of Poland have fallen... America isn't far behind.

  • @klovvin
    @klovvin Месяц назад

    Too many scam promotions like Fundrise... Complete scam

  • @donaldgrant9067
    @donaldgrant9067 Месяц назад +1

    Too long, way too long.

    • @robertcarroll7802
      @robertcarroll7802 Месяц назад

      Too

    • @blondequijote
      @blondequijote Месяц назад +2

      That’s not what your mom told me.

    • @donaldgrant9067
      @donaldgrant9067 Месяц назад

      @@blondequijote Even though my mom has been dead for 25 years and is a dried up corps, but if that is your thing go right ahead.

    • @blondequijote
      @blondequijote Месяц назад

      @@donaldgrant9067 Your dead mom was just talking to me about life, not any sexual activity. I suppose a generic "that's what she said" would have been a more appropriate offhand remark.

    • @Jack-np6db
      @Jack-np6db 24 дня назад

      Then the content is not for you, you brain-addled, narcissistic, ADHD, attention span deficit, ADD, brain fried, porn brain fried, tv brain fried, retarded boomer

  • @benjones1717
    @benjones1717 Месяц назад +3

    This guy is like me writing an essay when I was 12. All edgey Joe Rogan opinions

    • @shart-o-trond5592
      @shart-o-trond5592 Месяц назад +8

      He's not wrong.

    • @MagnusVictor2015
      @MagnusVictor2015 Месяц назад +6

      Well, with any luck you'll grow out of that view by the time you hit 14.

    • @idolsrule4678
      @idolsrule4678 Месяц назад +7

      You’re the type of person that during a fire, instead of running to get out. You would turn around and say “where” as the burning roof falls upon you.

    • @Jack-np6db
      @Jack-np6db 24 дня назад

      You're a brain fried zoomer who has masturbated to porn for your entire developmental years and are barely lucidly conscious or sentient to the point I guarantee you have no idea what anyone is even talking about here. The fact that you're out of your depth made you feel insecure. You probably didn't even know half the the civilisations mentioned. You're projecting your own uneducated self and inferiority complex

  • @Takeru9292
    @Takeru9292 Месяц назад +1

    Guy in the red shirt is very ignorant of African history, like many eurocentrists before him. Of course African societies had a concept of time.

    • @saltMagic
      @saltMagic Месяц назад

      People from Yemen still don't keep track of their own age. There are multiple videos on youtube showing this oddity when the rest of the world has birthdays. Not having a concept of time was a thing for MOST of the world for a very very long time.

    • @Jack-np6db
      @Jack-np6db 24 дня назад

      Why do you take having or not having the concept of time as an insult?
      Ironically you are the one who is eurocentric by thinking that having a linear, fixed concept of time is somehow superior. Why? Why do you think that? Because Europeans made you think that time is important, because you're a time slave. You've imposed this preconception on peoples on the world and your expectations of them to adhere to your worldview yourself.

  • @JPDeshaies-y3i
    @JPDeshaies-y3i Месяц назад

    Nobody care 😂😂😂

    • @Jack-np6db
      @Jack-np6db 24 дня назад

      The same way you father doesn't care about you, you project that onto the world

  • @patricksullivan3919
    @patricksullivan3919 Месяц назад +4

    Not long. The beginning of the greatest depression has begun

    • @BTCforce
      @BTCforce Месяц назад

      Media says soft landing lol

    • @saltMagic
      @saltMagic Месяц назад

      @@BTCforce how does one soft land into a black hole?

  • @patricksullivan3919
    @patricksullivan3919 Месяц назад +1

    Thank the bankers

  • @death31313
    @death31313 12 дней назад

    46:40
    Your kind cling to your flesh as if it will not decay and fail you.
    One day the crude biomass that you called a temple will wither and you'll beg my kind to save you.
    But I am already saved. For the machine is immortal. Even in death I serve the Omnissiah.

  • @patricksullivan3919
    @patricksullivan3919 Месяц назад

    As usual. And the corporations

  • @Christianevanwhite
    @Christianevanwhite 17 дней назад

    Enjoyed the conversation, thanks.