The Profane Flame is one of the most interesting parts of dark souls 3 to me, but I think that comes mostly from its connection with the Pontiff, who is the most fascinating boss. He wields fake miracles that are actually sorcery, uses a sword made to look holy but that summons the profane, and when pressured he utilizes the dark and abyssal powers he has. Because of the Profane flames link with pyromancy, and proximity with Irithyl, I find it very easy to link it with both Chaos, but due to most everything else about it, it's easy to link with the abyss. So I've always envisioned it as some kind of abyssal flame, that avoids the black color that would normally define it by being some form of the Chaos flame. Especially since it only seemed to burn humans, which is kind of reminiscent of fueling bonfires in dark souls one, only forceful (consuming humanity, rather than offering). Overall, it is just all profane. A fake holy man masquerading as a master of miracles at the foot of Anor Londo, that feeds a god to a monster and uses abyss magic, heretical pyromancies, and masks his sorcery to appear as moon miracles. He locks away Karla (a practitioner of black magics and a possible shard of Manus) but has not destroyed her (maybe even learned from her, considering she mistakes you for someone visiting, meaning she has had a visitor), and he gives eyes to his knights (opposite the Fire Keepers sacrificing their eyes). He also wears a crown, which I've never been able to understand other than perhaps a Dark Souls 2 reference. It's like... all the pieces of some grand conspiracy are there, but I'm not able to connect all the dots. At my most out there, I could almost convince myself he has some relation to Aldia, and attempting to usurp the flame by becoming some abyssal monarch by obtaining all power that is outside the First Flame, and other times he could just be an undead who wants a kingdom. This was just kind of an off the cuff comment to avoid doing work, but I know how I'll be spending some off time now.
I take the crown to indicate he isn't spiritual leader like his title might indicate. He's like Caesar having crossed some abyssal Rubicon to usurp power.
Id argue that it was a good starting point, but ds3 is the worse offender of vague bs they never explain. Aldritchs deep sea vision, firelink shrine 2 after ocerios, the profaned flame, v interesting points, but from puts 0 effort in tying the loose ends.
@@jacobhoover1654 thats opening the bible, tearing out 4 lines at random, and then expecting to know what that chapter was about. I have yet to see ANYONE understand it. The game has always had vague mysteries, and there is nothing inherently wrong with being so indirect with context, but without it im like who gives af about the deep, profaned flame, untended graves, age of sea, or angelic faith because none of those things affect me, lets just enjoy this smooth ass combat in a beautiful environment. It was charming with the abyss being some unverified monstrosity, but i never felt the other games had THIS many loose threads on aspects that seem to be of importance
@@skaterdude7277 Everything in all Dark Souls is vague... There's no proof Gwyndolin was born before Gwyn left to rekindle the flame There's also no proof he didn't Yet most people agree he did despite no description in the game actually even alluring to that We also don't know who Priscilla's mother is Some say Gwynevere cuz of a statue placement, others say Velka cuz you find Velka's set in Ariamis and there's a bunch of crow demons And well, DS2's map design alone provoques millions of questions
@@HankJ666 only because ds2 has bad maps. But not knowing the chronology of gwyneveres birth sn't the same. You go into the cathedral of the deep. Well whats the deep? *shrugs in item description* You rarely misunderstood where you were in deS and ds1. I just think the inconsistencies of the souls lore is that it was never a priority in the first place, miyazaki is on record for saying his inspiration was western adventure novels where you didnt have all the answers. Further, i think the story was only meant for 1 game. Thats why ds1 is so nicely packed. Heres peasant town in varying degrees, heres where the gods live. This one is a skeleton and lives below the graveyard, this one is a witch that fucked up everything and made a demon machine (ergo buncha demons), heres where a nerd dragon studies, heres where people let in the abyss and fucked themselves. And all my previously mentioned ds3 questions are not, IMO inconsequential like how a convenient started or exactly when an event happened. The deep sea vision is aldritches motive, the 2nd firelink has you pick up alt game ending items,
I’m just so freakin happy people are finding the connections of Dark Souls 2. Lore creators literally just writing it off as a non-canon. There’s two dudes named Drang knights like cmon
More links to DS2 certainly would’ve been cool however, with how blatantly self referential and fan service driven DS3 is already it might’ve been a bit much.
@@ThumbShovem its fan service for a reason, not just for the sake of being fan service. They wanted to show that everything that has happened will happen again, maybe differently but still it will happen. Like the npc's for example are all similiar to previous npcs like they are their reincarnations or alternate universe versions of them. And since ds3 was the last game they had to come full circle.
I absolutely love DS2 lore! It has so much significance to the Dark Souls series, yet seems to get so little attention for instance, the crown to stop hollowing/reverses its effects, human effigies, and is there any correlation between the chosen undead fallening into what appears to be a whirl poo and Aldrich the Man eater dreaming of the deep sea? And all the Dark Queens in DS2, why are there so many? Where are the serpents?!? So many questions, so little answers.
This is great. This is exactly what I needed to make sense of these otherwise baffling areas in DS3. The fact that Chaos always fed off/scaled with Humanity in DS1 is a huge clue and I’m so happy you’ve basically proved it’s the same thing but now the old chaos/profaned flame just burns innate humanity. Yhorm didn’t have any dark so he was untouched while his subjects got roasted. Like you it made sense in my head but needed a few more connectors. One of your best thank you this shit made my day
I always assumed that the profane flame was a corrupted version of the chaos flame. I figured that's why the demons who died before ds3 look just like unmoving demons, compared to the ones still alive, like they are burning theirselves as fuel. Like when a sun turns into a red giant. Same object just different fuela
Profaned Flame "Profane" is a synonym to "blashpemous" Blaspheme is sinful The Profaned Flame is a Flame of Sin Velka is the holder of the fifth Lord Soul: The Soul of Sin-der
Great stuff as always! Really like how you've been finding connections to ds2 that initially got overlooked by everyone. Makes me think of the similarities of the sisters of the shards of manus and the sisters of the sable church
Basically just fell into DS started waaay back in the day with Demons Souls and never really gave DS a true shot but your vids have gotten me addicted to this fucking franchise
This one is by far my favorite because it actually ties all three games back into a cohesive world story. So many people want to act like DS2 doesn't matter to the story when it gives us concepts like in this video.
My theory is that Yhorm doesn't descend from the ds2 giants : those giants have a hole for a head while Yhorm's skull is extremely humanlike. This leads me to think that Yhorm is actually the descendant of High Lord Wolnir (since he's a conqueror) and that's maybe why Yhorm receives such a harsh treatment from the people he protects since Wolnir is really cruel.
@@sathlasdalaraynidridlendar6875 i think the giants in ds3 are just a different breed, there's more than Yhorm that we see throrought, but now that i think about it he has a different phisique, and also, isn't Lorian sort of close to that height Nevermind i don't know what i'm really saying
@user name What you're saying is correct but there's still one weird detail in ds3 : right next to firelink shrine on the right side, there is a tree where you get the seed of giants (a pvp item) and just like the name implies it comes from a giant (specifically one that is part of that tree) that looks exactly like the ones from ds2. My conclusion is that Lucca's second comment is a good take because the ds2 variant is still present in the game, which means that there may be multiple races of giants Edit : I just remembered that Judicator giants exist as well so maybe that gives Lucca's theory more credence.
The other bit weirdness is that Wolnir was originally the boss of the profaned capital, and it was changed to Yhorm just before launch. I wonder what may have been planned if Wolnir had been associated with Profaned Cap / Eleum Loyce instead of Carthus.
There’s this point in Eleum Loyce where you go to the top of a mountain that overlooks the city, and when I replayed ds2 and saw that I said “oh that’s irythil innit” out loud.
Love this one👍 the Ivory King is one of my favorite characters and the lore behind Eleum Loyce & Forossa always interests me. Right when I first got to Irithyll I was reminded of Eleum Loyce, so I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw similarities 😁
I've been really enjoying the new feel of your videos, not sure when it happened but I think there was a big change in quality once you got the new logo. Really good stuff 🙂
Thanks, dude! Means a lot you've noticed. That was definitely the turning point in which I decidedly started doing more to improve the quality of my videos! =D
I think this idea is cool because this would imply that even the flames of Chaos born from the Witch of Izalith as subject to the same entropy as Gwyns age of fire
One more link between Eleum Loyce and Irythill are Aava, the king's pet, and the two remaining Zallen and Lud. If you see, we fight three beasts controlled by Sulyvahn in DS3. One of them drops us one of the rings the pontyff used to give to the powerful beings he wanted under control. We enter Irythil like we approached to the Eleum Loyce grand cathedral in DS2: through a bridge. In the second game Aava awaits us there, protecting the cathedral and helping seal the Old Chaos that remains, waiting for her master (Ivory King). In the third, we are surprised by a muted creature while we cross through Irythill. Aava was, in my opinion, stronger than her brothers Zallen and Lud, not in the moveset: in her behavior, she was convinced that protecting this place was the best for everyone. Time after time, new conquerors were to come and Aava would remain loyal to her king. Pontiff Sulyvahn was headed to Irythill and took control over the city when he found the link with the Old Chaos, now contained as the Profaned Flame: a never fading flame with traces of the abyss in it (maybe 'cause the influence of Alsanna, daughter of Manus, and her followers in their try to keep the chaos away using the power of humanity, the dark soul from the abyss). So, Sullyvahn found himself in control of the city of Irithyl and got rid ot their people: turned civillians into slaves, killed the former power roles and made the knights by his side. The rings of Sulyvahn were given to this Irythill beings unbreakable by his power, to control powerful beings or powerful wills, just as Aava. I'm sure the Pontyff found Aava on the bridge when he found Irythill, many decades had passed since dark souls 2 but her will remains intact: she protects the city and their people. Pontiff Sullyvahn, after defeating the animal, found out she had two brothers, who seduced and turned into beasts with the power of the Profaned Flame. But Aava was different, she refused to serve him, she stood at the bridge fighting foragers, for her Ivory King. So Sullyvahn may think "ok, you want to protect my city? marvelous". He gave her a ring of his, breaking her inside and tearing her will apart, turning her into a beast as he did with her brothers Zalled and Lud in a easier way.
1) While somewhat mitigated by the blah blah explanation of lands converging, and while they have no direct entry from one to the other, Smoldering Lake/Demon Ruins are very close to Profaned Capital location-wise. 2) Profaned Coal's description and Andre's reaction to it suggests it has Abyss in it. The Profaned Flame after Yhorm's linking is said to have incinerated 'Naught but human flesh'. In DS1, humanity enhanced Chaos weapons, and both Chaos Flame and First Flame via Gwyn's machinations seemed to benefit from humanity in some way, trying to feed off of it in various ways. 3) Immolation Tinder is a sorcery catalyst that also utilizes the Profaned Flame with only minimal need for faith and purely enhanced by intelligence. This scaling-bending factor may be what interested Sulyvahn, a sorcerer, but curiously, the same witches that produced Chaos Flame and eventually lead to pyromancies have previously used Fire Sorceries, and Demon Firesage, who is known to have studied fire sorceries in their decline, used a fire-damage int-only scaling sorcery catalyst. 4) Monstrosities of Sin are almost certainly made to resemble Manus' hand. 5) Relatives could mean sisters, descendants of Alsanna, or descendants of her sisters. IMO profaned flame is a result of chaos and abyss overinteracting and fully merging into a new creation. As humanity proved to be good fuel for these flames, Profaned Flame seems to "Never go out". As it doesn't really require faith to use unlike (in DS3) the already under-suspicion pyromancies and is made of things disapproved of by the Faithful of Gwyn - Chaos and the Abyss - it would indeed seem 'Profane' to them, but to Sulyvahn who wishes to study magic of all types but is a faithless man, it would seem absolutely fascinating instead.
The Old Chaos under Eleum Loyce is likely a completely different Chaos to the one in Izalith. Eleum Loyce is likely located somewhere in Alken. We know this because of the Covetuous Demon and Flexile Sentries we find there. The Flexile Sentires are interestingly located in a locked room full of retainers, who are the Loyce Priestesses' attendants. We know the Flexile Sentries were the creation of some previous King, perhaps the King of Olaphis or the King of Alken that ruled alongside the Iron King. They were not Vendrick's creation, he just asked him to continue carrying out their original purpose, ferrying undead to the Lost Bastille. There are 4 Flexile Sentries. Two are in the Loyce Cave, one in the Wharf, and one in Sinners Rise. This, combined with the Sinner's missing eye and the Loyce Priestess' Eye we have to pick up, seems to tell me the Lost Sinner is a Loyce Priestess who abandone her duty. Whether she lit the Chaos, the First Flame, or a new Chaos entirely, is up for discussion. I think it's the last one, seeing as there are no Chaos Demons in Izalith. As for the Covetuous Demon in Loyce, I think it's intended to tie into the Alken and Venn bell story.
Literally yesterday I was watching videos about this topic, trying to figure out the connections. As you pointed out, in the Eleonora description it says that the flame was triggered by the curse of the women, and you interpreted it as they performed the curse to Alsanna. I think they were the ones cursed instead. I think they were cursed because they committed a sin, thus the name "Monstruosity of Sin", and the sin being something similar to the one the Witch of Izalith committed trying to recretate the First Flame. I think the Profaned Flame was born similar to the Chaos Flame, by these women trying to recreate the First Flame through their dark souls, fragments of Manus, but they failed and therefore they were cursed, becoming a monster similar to Manus. Also, this would explain the link between humanity/dark/abyss and the Profaned Flame (Andre literally says that he can see the abyss in it when you give him the Profaned Coal). Another thing that I wanted to point out is that these monsters can be found in what looks like a temple, in which you can find the miracle Wrath of the Gods. This could be linked to their curse, meaning it was a punishment by the gods and they are now sinning in a temple dedicated to these old gods. Let me know what you think about this theory!
I personally think that the Profaned Flame is a fire born of the abyss. The chaos is the life lord soul gone wild just as the abyss is the dark soul gone wild, they’re similar in concept but different. There is the item the “Profaned Coal” and what Andre says about it on giving it to him that it’s “dark and he sees the abyss in it” As fire of the abyss one would think that the flame would be black like the dark pyromancies but who knows. That what I think.
I could say further that it reminds me of another guys theory that Darkstalker Kaathe may have had a hand in the profaned flames creation which might explain the abyss connection. Don’t know haven’t been able to remember who made that vid.
Just because we haven’t seen nor heard of any flames with abyss doesn’t mean it isn’t possible, it’s a theory so of course it’s not gonna make too much sense. So you don’t have to get mouthy.
The fact that you say what you did and say that I have to grow up is laughable due to it being a little self contradicting with a hint of self condescension. I wonder who really needs to grow up here, complaining about a low luster theory of all things.
It's all the same place. Irithyll was built above/over many layers of kingdoms/ruins, and the bottom of the stack was the land of Izalith. The Chaos Flame, created out of ambition by the Witch of Izalith, corrupts the hearts of those near it, and you see this trend in every land touched by the Chaos. The world runs in cycles, so it's not location that changes, only time.
Another compelling video. I'm actually willing to accept this theory. But ofc having come to my own conclusions I must share. First thing I thought of when walking up to the profaned flame in the profaned capitol was of that strange place where we place souls into the Lord Vessel. The vessel containing the profaned flame looks totally like the Lord Vessel. The lordvessel is also placed far down below, although you seem to travel there by extraordinary means and given Gwyn's Kiln of the first flame is right there I would imagine it possibly being near anor londo itself. Where he can keep a close eye on it. It's also Profaned, not profane, or flame of the profane. Which seems to imply to me that it was once sacred. This also marries nicely with it being the Lord Vessel, once sacred, now mal-appropriated in this capitol. Lastly, while I do entirely think Yhorm is related to the giants of ds2, and not just in the genealogical sense, it is just as likely he is a descendant of Wolnir. But I do want to offer an interesting Forossian character that may lend itself to your theory since the king of Eleum Lloyce was once the highest ranking knight of Forossa. There was another warrior of Forossa whose description reads similarly to Yhorm: Shieldless Lothian. Dragonslayer's Crescent Axe reads, "No warrior matched the ferocity of unbeatable Lothian, but he abruptly retired from the battlefield and was never heard from again. Some say that he grew tired of the frailty of human foes, and set off to slay the legendary dragon." Legendary dragon aside, his differentiation of humans could be evident of his being a Giant, albeit of Forossa. Furthermore, his Ring of Giants reads, "The beloved ring of the gallant Shieldless Lothian, formerly of Forossa.... Lothian was born a peasant, and died a general. His determination and diligence were unmatched, especially on the battlefield, where he earned his name by choosing to fight without a shield." It was a conscious choice. This could be an unnecessary rabbit-hole as you call it. But still fun to mention. Also an unnecessary rabit-hole is his name. At first glance appears to be a combination of Lothric and Lorian, Lothian... also a place in scotland... and a river called Lothian Burn... and there's that rabbit-hole ok I'm done thanks!
Isn't the Chaos flame in ds1 a religious figure? The demons in Lost Izalith and Demon Ruins have a religious hierarchy including priest and clerics based around the Chaos flame. So wouldnt this separate the Profaned Flame from the Chaos Flame? And wouldnt the profaned flame be what Gwyn ignited with his Soul at the Kiln of the First Flame? This would explain how the flame traveled so far considering how burnt and melted the Kiln of the First Flame looks.
@@jacobhoover1654 Good point... I may be grasping at straws but all the bonfires are linked. Including the one at the Kiln. And humans for a long time were offering up humanity at the bonfires to keep from hollowing. Maybe the combo of human (dark) souls and Gwyns soul caused the profaned flame to have elements of the Abyss within it?
@@jacobhoover1654 Im pretty sure Yorm didnt link the flame until after the Profaned Flame erupted... I could be wrong let me double check on it. As far as the flame coming from the bonfires. It would make sense due to knowing so little about the bonfires and the power they obviously have stored in them. And it is profaned in nature it has no religious ties or related to faith in anyway.
I think what the lost sinner came from elyseum and they create the profane flame. They lost their eye because they was one of the priest who remove their eye and change for the item who allow you see invisible things
I know their was already a comment about this ,but how did the flame come to be. The hand monster is only their because they made the flame first. If they are the oricals daughters not her sister then they could put the abyss in the flame. The abyss in the flame is what makes it undying. The sisters of her couldnt have dont it because we killed them for their kings crowns . So much my bad
I love the video! And I somewhat believe (and does kinda make sense) that the Oracle is Alsana but hey u never know. But I love the vids I hope u make a video about the shards of manus themselves
I honestly think DS 2 is after DS 3. At this point, there's no flame to light at the end. Irithyll was a long time a go and Eleum Loyce was built on top. Alot of the areas in DS 1 and 3 are nearly gone or there were cities and areas built atop them
@@TheAshenHollow Also, I think time itself was more warped in DS2 than in DS3. DS3 time began to warp as seen when the world around was almost folding in on itself while DS2, you access whole new areas with a whole different environment and time of day. The fire keepers are no longer needed since the flame was extinguished long ago. Now only the Emerald Herald exists to keep the Player going but she maybe immortal.
Goddamn Jake! This video was unlivable. In the future could try and create a Map of the world of Dark Souls? We that all the places are interconnected, but there are so many places that are talked about that we never get to visit or know where they are.
Been thinking about what really happened in the Profaned Capital lately. Where it differs from the Bed of Chaos and the Old Chaos is it seems the Profaned flame is infused with humanity. It creates demonic creatures, but they are still human based, whereas Chaos creates creatures from both nothing and completely converting humans (or witches) into full fledged demons. However, the Old Chaos was completely contained in Eleum Loyce, the only twisted creatures were the Ivory King and his knights; all but retaining their humanity, their form only changing as if marred by fire. Similarly, Silver Knights became Black Knights when they were burned by Chaos. So again we see the sadistic aristocratic nobles become Jailers in Irithyll Dungeon, and the ones in the Profaned Capital become strange perverted Keepers of the Profaned Flame. It would make sense in one aspect of the Profaned Flame being the future Bed of Chaos, in that it seems the Profaned Flame is a much weaker, older fire than it once was. Where once there was heat enough to stir up lava, now there is merely molten gold and charred brick and mud mixed with blood and wasted. Before it created legions of monsters, now it can scarcely convert all it touches. The vast remnants of the Capital are still massed along the edges of the ruined throne room. It reminds me more of New Londo than Izalith, desecrated corpses everywhere, and abominations roam the ruins. That’s the word I was looking for, the Profaned Capital and Flame are all abominations, not demonic.
Yes. Any being with red eyes, specifically humanoids have fallen to the abyss and as such take extra damage from weapons like Hollowslayer GS and the Farron UGS, and in the case of Yhorm, Windbreaker or whatever it's called.
What if what was stolen from the DS2 giants was their souls, a la darkwraith face-grabbing style, in such a manner that quite literally left holes in their faces? Could this explain why the giant lord doesn't have a face, but Yhorm does? A note on the abyss at the flames's core, and this is just my interpretation, but... If the dark soul can split and grow and split and grow, and the abyssal dark soul of Manus could grow quickly enough to literally spawn the abyss off of himself, then if a shard of Manus, whose darkness likely continually grows over time, were made into the fuel for a flame, would they burn forever? If they produced humanity at a rate that could keep pace with or exceed the rate at which the humanity was burned, I would certainly think it would be an eternal flame. Perhaps Alsanna's sisters came to Eleum Loyce and collectively threw her into a lordvessel to burn forever as punishment for her supposed disloyalty to the Abyss? Edit: I've always thought the axe demons in ds3 looked far more like Manus than like Tauros demons, specifically for their eyes, horns, and the sheer length of their tails. Perhaps Alsanna or another being with an intensely dark soul was ignited with the flame of chaos, and from then on, the chaos and the abyss became even more irrevocably linked than they already were?
While I agree that DS3 is predominantly a DS1 sequel, I would argue that it's possible that lands from DS2 could appear here, because of how the lands of past Lords of Cinder are converging around Lothric.
Dunno if anybody mentioned it yet, they probably have, but a spiteful act from her sister(s) towards Alsanna makes perfect sense. Elana is the shard bearing Manus’ Anger and Wrath, and Nashandra his Desire and Greed. No idea how to involve Nadalia in it though. Maybe it was just Elana?
When it says relatives it could mean he descents instead of her sisters, it isn’t known if she had any kids with the ivory king but you never know. Perhaps it means that her descendants cause the flame to rage once again after being dormant.
So are you saying that Loyce is irithyll? If that's the case than wouldn't Anor Londo be visible above it? Unless you're trying to say they moved the old chaos/profane flame to it. I may just be confused on what you said, but there are quite a few similarities. I would say that the old chaos was supposed to be The Chaos, as we don't really know any other force or flame that would be it. Which the fact that people around the profane flame were malformed could show similarities to the chaos flame, as it did turn Izalith's people into deformed demons. However with the weakening of it's flame, the changes it made to people also dwindled. That along with the fact it grew with the first flame. As the Lords took their power from the age of fire, that would explain how Chaos could survive for so long(as all flames fade) and why the profane flame increased when Yhorn burned himself.
Maybe he was fighting by his side when he hadn't betrayed his father and sided with the dragons yet. Since he was called the God of war and not the nameless king.
Why didn't they just splash some water on the profaned flame that would have snuffed it for sure as a matter of fact why didn't they do that with the flame of chaos man all the bad things caused could have been avoided if they only had some water
Nice one man. I just didn't get the connection between Sulyvahn and Eleum Loyce / Ancient Profaned Capital quite well, since it's known he came from - and even was Born in - the painted world of Ariandel... You mean he came from there or the place where he discovered the Profaned Sword / Flame was Old Eleum Loyce (i.e before becoming the Profaned Capital)? But I'm not sure, maybe I'm missing something. Thanks for the video man!
Yeah you are up to something. There is probably some connection, but the profane flame is not the chaos flame, since they both co exist in Das3. The way i see it is that at some point, Alsanna, attempted to control the part of the chaos that was threatening her land, like the witch of Izalith before her. She had some success with it, but that flames nature changed to be fueled by the rampant humanity of Manus. Losing control leads to corruption of ones humanity, instead of a chaotic mutation of life.
My theory is that every element has a "corrupt" form Dark > Abyss/Deep Life > Chaos Crystal > Curse Fire > Profane flame They all seem to have a desire to spread and control heck, you could count the poison swamps as the corrupt version of Nito's soul Though I can't say we see a corrupt form of Gwyn's light or lightning.
@@ripperman25 seems about right to be honest, the war was only won thanks to lightning, Seath was obsessed with crystal research and eventually crystalized magic, and lightning is crystalized light. On top of that crystal was a substitute for the everlasting scales he lacked. The real question is thus; did Seath discover how to create lightning and give it to Gwyn, thus earning his dukedom and the grand archives? Because if thats the case then the age of fire was indeed born out of the corruption of natural elements, because without utilizing that corruption the everlasting dragons would never have been genocided. That reaffirms that the Abyss is the natural order of the world and the light souls of the first flame are corrosive to it, not vice versa. So lets say Gwyn had no problem corrupting the natural elements to serve his purposes, but realized he couldnt control or corrupt the dark; the deep and the abyss are both human induced corruptions after all, and humans can only recreate miracles due to reading the stories of the gods who created them. Kind of explains why he feared humanity so much he branded them with a ring of fire to keep them out of the dark; he realized he destroyed the natural order of the world and it was quickly returning to equilibrium, he was terrified of the monsters he created in the dark he couldnt control and realized humanity, who he had subjugated and done everything in his power to steal their godhood, would continue as they are while him and his people couldn't survive without the source of their power. That explains why he used humans to link the first flame; he linked it to humanity, to the dark soul, the only being that could actually survive in both the dark and the light, ensuring that even if the flame faded it would return. Tldr; Seath corrupted life by crystalizing magic and light, stripping and granting eternal life respectively outside the natural order. Izalith corrupted life and made chaos, which spawned demons, a wholy unnatural race that exists seperate from both the dark and the first flame. Nito corrupted life when he brought people back from death, granting them a false life outside the natural order. Gwyn corrupted life when he branded humanity with the undead curse, which only comes about as the fire wanes; Gwyn, in essence, corrupted life by forcing it onto humanity, giving them a mortal life seperate from the immortality of the dark, and linking them forever to the first flame, inadvertantly dooming them to a state of eternally being stuck between life and death until the flame goes out, and forcing the dark soul to act as kindling in order to keep the age of fire going.
Wait, so is Irythil and the Profaned Capital the same? Why hasn't Irythil been consumed by the Profaned Flame like the Profaned Capital? And why is the Profaned Capital at the Underground of Irithyl? To me, an Underground city is extremely unlikely and the only reason why they are close together is because the lands are twisting around the souls of the Lords of Cinder (Yhorm and Aldrich). Part of the lore of Irithyl feels very strange to me, because atop of it is Anor Londo and it seems that Gwyndolyn has been the deity of Irythil for quite some time before Sullyvahn came along. It COULD be that Anor Londo IS Irythil. Hear me out for a bit: After a long time, in Lordran, the flame of chaos that had been formed in Izalith got closer and closer to Anor Londo. And after successive linkings of the fire, people have slowly started occupying Lordran again (and Anor Londo), which ended up having its name as Eleum Loyce. HOWEVER, we don't see Anor Londo in Eleum Loyce, and Gwyndolin is nowhere to be seen around Eleum Loyce during the events of Dark Souls 2. And this doesn't have a lot of consistency. And this doesn't explain at all why PC is underground :(
Nah, i think DS2 giants are a different species with the same name. They are completely different in anatomy and also death. There is a pretty big difference between becoming a tree and rotting away like DS1/3 giants do. Also a huge hole on your face is enough of a difference for me.
@@TheAshenHollow Yeah, even by giant standards, Wolnir is suspiciously large. His crown fits him, despite being made of 3 other crowns. Meaning, either its inflated in size by the space magic we fight him in or he killed some extremely large kings in his day
@@MediocreSix lol i basically know nothing of ds2 im stuck on ds1 and ds3 lore rn i played through ds3 and thought i understood a lot but then started watching lore videos while playing through ds1 i now know i knew nothing but i do know a bit more now thankfully its just piecing shit etc i probably know 1/6th lore of ds1 and ds3
I have noticed an interesting pattern: every time we see a Chaos, Profaned or in general an Evil and Corrupting flame in the dark souls universe, we see that flame taking the form of a tree-like root structure, or creating structures like this. And, if my memory doesn't fool me, there was only one tree-like creature who specifically created demons to satiate his hunger for souls...
How can far can a flame travel? Well good question and makes me think more about how fire in dark souls is completely different than fire we know.... But to what extent are they different and similar Edit that we know for sure... Just food for thought would love some ideas into this
Could there also be a connection between the First Flame, the Chaos Flame, and the Profane Flame, or one and the same, because who knows what lengths Gwyn went to to keep the gods as gods
The main issue with your theory I see is that Aldrich is from Irithyll, and he is also in the DS1 comics. Going off that I'm led to believe Irithyll actually predates Eleum Lloyce. Good video regardless.
I personally really like Dark souls 2 as it brought a lot to the table Lore wise and there are interesting things that this game introduced and expanded on... _"b-but muh gameplay"_ crowd really ended up giving this game a bad rep. Hope you do some more videos on Dark Souls 2.
having played it with an open mind. The bad rep is well deserved as most the GOOD lore happens during new game + and after getting an item and exploring. That is a lot to slog through, and a lot of the game was not that fun, more so to play co-op. The first play through doesn't show case much lore outside "member this from dark souls" . If the new game+ big boss souls were in the first play through , and some of the design choices more fluid, It would have been better. example: it should take a new game plus play through to realize you fought the witch Izilythe (sp)
This is not the same prince, one of the two demons became a new prince after uniting with the other, that is why it has a different special move based on the surviving demon.
Look this is a long shot but you have said throughout the video that things are similar and somewhat coincidences but i have been thinking that Dark Souls 2 and 3 are parrales worlds and each world happens based on the ending you choose in Dark Souls 1 and with parralel worlds things can be similar yet different and things like you have shown somewhat have evidence too that.
I don't think chaos is inherently profane; the end of fire could have been prevented via the Chaos Flame if Gwyn didn't have a god complex. Gwyn was the one who profaned it. Just a hypothesis
I'm really confused.. I thought dark souls 2 story doesn't link up with the story told through 1 and 3 but this video that is for "dark souls 3" used a lot of ds2 dlc lore which confused the hell out of me 😂
I wonder if the descriptions of items in the game's native language may clarify some confusion. The English translation of the game is far from perfect.
If only the Profaned Captial wasn't just a hodge-podge of assets from prior iterations of the game-resused to try and convince us there was coherency to any of this game. Which there wasn't. We're doing the writing for them 🤷♂️
Well we do do a lot of writing for the game, whether that's cleverly intended by them or not, I wouldn't have it any other way. What other games can you go into this kind of theory crafting depth with? =D
@@TheAshenHollow Oh it's not like I think it's a bad thing: it's an incredible rush to have things click together in a big way. Here's a few just so there aren't in my head alone 1. The Hollow Lord symbol is from Boletaria, it's on the banners 2. Gwyn's light unbolt in DS1 is a branch of a tree 3. The goo in Sen's fortress is humanity ground out of Men by the trial 4. The Egg iconography is featured in DS1 on Berenike night's shield, also with four wings like a dragon sprouting from it. One guards Velka's shrine in the Undead Parish. 5. Blood moon in DS2 intro opens the abyssal-time-dream whirl-pool. You're awoken by a bell-ringing maiden to act like a red-phantom on her behalf, into a dream realm above and unattached to the rest but mimicking a specific place. I don't think you can separate all of the games lore, even if the creators are legally obligated to. Every game makes more sense when you introduce another one: even Sekiro has breadcrumbs that explain why many particle effects dealing with the "curse" are Sakura leaves. I just realized how long that comment already is. I've got a lot more if you'll entertain the premise they aren't entirely separate but legally separate because of corporate obligations.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
The painting room in irythyll has more lore implications than anything but no one does videos on it
What are you waiting for?! =D
like what?
@@TheAshenHollow for you to make Lore videos on the painting room in Irythyll :)
@@jacobhoover1654 So what does that mean? Smough was defending Gwynevere but aldritch gobbled 'em both up?
@@jacobhoover1654
But why is smough there like 10,000 years later? Didn't we kill him, and even if it's just his stuff why's it there?
The Profane Flame is one of the most interesting parts of dark souls 3 to me, but I think that comes mostly from its connection with the Pontiff, who is the most fascinating boss. He wields fake miracles that are actually sorcery, uses a sword made to look holy but that summons the profane, and when pressured he utilizes the dark and abyssal powers he has.
Because of the Profane flames link with pyromancy, and proximity with Irithyl, I find it very easy to link it with both Chaos, but due to most everything else about it, it's easy to link with the abyss. So I've always envisioned it as some kind of abyssal flame, that avoids the black color that would normally define it by being some form of the Chaos flame. Especially since it only seemed to burn humans, which is kind of reminiscent of fueling bonfires in dark souls one, only forceful (consuming humanity, rather than offering).
Overall, it is just all profane. A fake holy man masquerading as a master of miracles at the foot of Anor Londo, that feeds a god to a monster and uses abyss magic, heretical pyromancies, and masks his sorcery to appear as moon miracles. He locks away Karla (a practitioner of black magics and a possible shard of Manus) but has not destroyed her (maybe even learned from her, considering she mistakes you for someone visiting, meaning she has had a visitor), and he gives eyes to his knights (opposite the Fire Keepers sacrificing their eyes). He also wears a crown, which I've never been able to understand other than perhaps a Dark Souls 2 reference.
It's like... all the pieces of some grand conspiracy are there, but I'm not able to connect all the dots. At my most out there, I could almost convince myself he has some relation to Aldia, and attempting to usurp the flame by becoming some abyssal monarch by obtaining all power that is outside the First Flame, and other times he could just be an undead who wants a kingdom. This was just kind of an off the cuff comment to avoid doing work, but I know how I'll be spending some off time now.
I take the crown to indicate he isn't spiritual leader like his title might indicate. He's like Caesar having crossed some abyssal Rubicon to usurp power.
The fact all of his attributes are associated with Dark and the crown makes me thing of a wrong way to become "lord of the dark".
I know it's pretty randomly asking but does anybody know of a good place to watch newly released movies online?
@Adrian Mario flixportal :)
@Zayd Malcolm thank you, I went there and it seems like a nice service :D Appreciate it !!
you know it's good lore when there are still videos deciphering it almost a decade later
yes indeed
Id argue that it was a good starting point, but ds3 is the worse offender of vague bs they never explain. Aldritchs deep sea vision, firelink shrine 2 after ocerios, the profaned flame, v interesting points, but from puts 0 effort in tying the loose ends.
@@jacobhoover1654 thats opening the bible, tearing out 4 lines at random, and then expecting to know what that chapter was about.
I have yet to see ANYONE understand it. The game has always had vague mysteries, and there is nothing inherently wrong with being so indirect with context, but without it im like who gives af about the deep, profaned flame, untended graves, age of sea, or angelic faith because none of those things affect me, lets just enjoy this smooth ass combat in a beautiful environment.
It was charming with the abyss being some unverified monstrosity, but i never felt the other games had THIS many loose threads on aspects that seem to be of importance
@@skaterdude7277 Everything in all Dark Souls is vague...
There's no proof Gwyndolin was born before Gwyn left to rekindle the flame
There's also no proof he didn't
Yet most people agree he did despite no description in the game actually even alluring to that
We also don't know who Priscilla's mother is
Some say Gwynevere cuz of a statue placement, others say Velka cuz you find Velka's set in Ariamis and there's a bunch of crow demons
And well, DS2's map design alone provoques millions of questions
@@HankJ666 only because ds2 has bad maps.
But not knowing the chronology of gwyneveres birth sn't the same.
You go into the cathedral of the deep.
Well whats the deep?
*shrugs in item description*
You rarely misunderstood where you were in deS and ds1.
I just think the inconsistencies of the souls lore is that it was never a priority in the first place, miyazaki is on record for saying his inspiration was western adventure novels where you didnt have all the answers. Further, i think the story was only meant for 1 game. Thats why ds1 is so nicely packed. Heres peasant town in varying degrees, heres where the gods live. This one is a skeleton and lives below the graveyard, this one is a witch that fucked up everything and made a demon machine (ergo buncha demons), heres where a nerd dragon studies, heres where people let in the abyss and fucked themselves.
And all my previously mentioned ds3 questions are not, IMO inconsequential like how a convenient started or exactly when an event happened. The deep sea vision is aldritches motive, the 2nd firelink has you pick up alt game ending items,
150 years from now my brain-in-a-jar will still be eagerly watching your DS lore holo films.
I’m just so freakin happy people are finding the connections of Dark Souls 2. Lore creators literally just writing it off as a non-canon. There’s two dudes named Drang knights like cmon
More links to DS2 certainly would’ve been cool however, with how blatantly self referential and fan service driven DS3 is already it might’ve been a bit much.
@@ThumbShovem its fan service for a reason, not just for the sake of being fan service. They wanted to show that everything that has happened will happen again, maybe differently but still it will happen. Like the npc's for example are all similiar to previous npcs like they are their reincarnations or alternate universe versions of them. And since ds3 was the last game they had to come full circle.
Earthen Peak is in the DLC, Gilligan is in PC. DS3 fanboys are the most maladjusted weirdos about not liking DS2.
I absolutely love DS2 lore! It has so much significance to the Dark Souls series, yet seems to get so little attention for instance, the crown to stop hollowing/reverses its effects, human effigies, and is there any correlation between the chosen undead fallening into what appears to be a whirl poo and Aldrich the Man eater dreaming of the deep sea? And all the Dark Queens in DS2, why are there so many? Where are the serpents?!? So many questions, so little answers.
This is great. This is exactly what I needed to make sense of these otherwise baffling areas in DS3. The fact that Chaos always fed off/scaled with Humanity in DS1 is a huge clue and I’m so happy you’ve basically proved it’s the same thing but now the old chaos/profaned flame just burns innate humanity. Yhorm didn’t have any dark so he was untouched while his subjects got roasted. Like you it made sense in my head but needed a few more connectors. One of your best thank you this shit made my day
The Ivory Badass. He is one of my favourite characters in the trilogy.
I always assumed that the profane flame was a corrupted version of the chaos flame. I figured that's why the demons who died before ds3 look just like unmoving demons, compared to the ones still alive, like they are burning theirselves as fuel. Like when a sun turns into a red giant. Same object just different fuela
Here comes a new velka theory
I can't believe the Furtive Pygmy profaned that flame
Not yet, but soon... maybe... ;)
Profaned Flame
"Profane" is a synonym to "blashpemous"
Blaspheme is sinful
The Profaned Flame is a Flame of Sin
Velka is the holder of the fifth Lord Soul: The Soul of Sin-der
@@PunkZombie1300 Dont you dare, to put that theory in a few words... Jake could make a 30min+ video about it^^
Great stuff as always! Really like how you've been finding connections to ds2 that initially got overlooked by everyone. Makes me think of the similarities of the sisters of the shards of manus and the sisters of the sable church
Thanks, dude! =]
Yeah those Londor gals are an enigma for sure!
I've thought of this since I've seen that the fire witches share some attacks with the Loyce knights, great vid.
Basically just fell into DS started waaay back in the day with Demons Souls and never really gave DS a true shot but your vids have gotten me addicted to this fucking franchise
Haha, that makes me glad! =D
This one is by far my favorite because it actually ties all three games back into a cohesive world story. So many people want to act like DS2 doesn't matter to the story when it gives us concepts like in this video.
#DS2LoreIsJustAsLegitAsDS1LoreGang
7:15 Yhorm's ashes look like a normal human skull, just big, he doesn't resemble the ds2 giants at all hsjzhns
i think he might be a crossbreed.
My theory is that Yhorm doesn't descend from the ds2 giants : those giants have a hole for a head while Yhorm's skull is extremely humanlike. This leads me to think that Yhorm is actually the descendant of High Lord Wolnir (since he's a conqueror) and that's maybe why Yhorm receives such a harsh treatment from the people he protects since Wolnir is really cruel.
@@sathlasdalaraynidridlendar6875 i think the giants in ds3 are just a different breed, there's more than Yhorm that we see throrought, but now that i think about it he has a different phisique, and also, isn't Lorian sort of close to that height
Nevermind i don't know what i'm really saying
@user name What you're saying is correct but there's still one weird detail in ds3 : right next to firelink shrine on the right side, there is a tree where you get the seed of giants (a pvp item) and just like the name implies it comes from a giant (specifically one that is part of that tree) that looks exactly like the ones from ds2. My conclusion is that Lucca's second comment is a good take because the ds2 variant is still present in the game, which means that there may be multiple races of giants Edit : I just remembered that Judicator giants exist as well so maybe that gives Lucca's theory more credence.
The other bit weirdness is that Wolnir was originally the boss of the profaned capital, and it was changed to Yhorm just before launch. I wonder what may have been planned if Wolnir had been associated with Profaned Cap / Eleum Loyce instead of Carthus.
There’s this point in Eleum Loyce where you go to the top of a mountain that overlooks the city, and when I replayed ds2 and saw that I said “oh that’s irythil innit” out loud.
Love this one👍 the Ivory King is one of my favorite characters and the lore behind Eleum Loyce & Forossa always interests me. Right when I first got to Irithyll I was reminded of Eleum Loyce, so I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw similarities 😁
I've been really enjoying the new feel of your videos, not sure when it happened but I think there was a big change in quality once you got the new logo. Really good stuff 🙂
Thanks, dude! Means a lot you've noticed. That was definitely the turning point in which I decidedly started doing more to improve the quality of my videos! =D
I think this idea is cool because this would imply that even the flames of Chaos born from the Witch of Izalith as subject to the same entropy as Gwyns age of fire
Man your channel is great , please never stop , i have a lot of fun watching your vídeos and playing through the souls series
One more link between Eleum Loyce and Irythill are Aava, the king's pet, and the two remaining Zallen and Lud. If you see, we fight three beasts controlled by Sulyvahn in DS3. One of them drops us one of the rings the pontyff used to give to the powerful beings he wanted under control. We enter Irythil like we approached to the Eleum Loyce grand cathedral in DS2: through a bridge. In the second game Aava awaits us there, protecting the cathedral and helping seal the Old Chaos that remains, waiting for her master (Ivory King). In the third, we are surprised by a muted creature while we cross through Irythill. Aava was, in my opinion, stronger than her brothers Zallen and Lud, not in the moveset: in her behavior, she was convinced that protecting this place was the best for everyone. Time after time, new conquerors were to come and Aava would remain loyal to her king. Pontiff Sulyvahn was headed to Irythill and took control over the city when he found the link with the Old Chaos, now contained as the Profaned Flame: a never fading flame with traces of the abyss in it (maybe 'cause the influence of Alsanna, daughter of Manus, and her followers in their try to keep the chaos away using the power of humanity, the dark soul from the abyss). So, Sullyvahn found himself in control of the city of Irithyl and got rid ot their people: turned civillians into slaves, killed the former power roles and made the knights by his side. The rings of Sulyvahn were given to this Irythill beings unbreakable by his power, to control powerful beings or powerful wills, just as Aava. I'm sure the Pontyff found Aava on the bridge when he found Irythill, many decades had passed since dark souls 2 but her will remains intact: she protects the city and their people. Pontiff Sullyvahn, after defeating the animal, found out she had two brothers, who seduced and turned into beasts with the power of the Profaned Flame. But Aava was different, she refused to serve him, she stood at the bridge fighting foragers, for her Ivory King. So Sullyvahn may think "ok, you want to protect my city? marvelous". He gave her a ring of his, breaking her inside and tearing her will apart, turning her into a beast as he did with her brothers Zalled and Lud in a easier way.
1) While somewhat mitigated by the blah blah explanation of lands converging, and while they have no direct entry from one to the other, Smoldering Lake/Demon Ruins are very close to Profaned Capital location-wise.
2) Profaned Coal's description and Andre's reaction to it suggests it has Abyss in it. The Profaned Flame after Yhorm's linking is said to have incinerated 'Naught but human flesh'. In DS1, humanity enhanced Chaos weapons, and both Chaos Flame and First Flame via Gwyn's machinations seemed to benefit from humanity in some way, trying to feed off of it in various ways.
3) Immolation Tinder is a sorcery catalyst that also utilizes the Profaned Flame with only minimal need for faith and purely enhanced by intelligence. This scaling-bending factor may be what interested Sulyvahn, a sorcerer, but curiously, the same witches that produced Chaos Flame and eventually lead to pyromancies have previously used Fire Sorceries, and Demon Firesage, who is known to have studied fire sorceries in their decline, used a fire-damage int-only scaling sorcery catalyst.
4) Monstrosities of Sin are almost certainly made to resemble Manus' hand.
5) Relatives could mean sisters, descendants of Alsanna, or descendants of her sisters.
IMO profaned flame is a result of chaos and abyss overinteracting and fully merging into a new creation. As humanity proved to be good fuel for these flames, Profaned Flame seems to "Never go out". As it doesn't really require faith to use unlike (in DS3) the already under-suspicion pyromancies and is made of things disapproved of by the Faithful of Gwyn - Chaos and the Abyss - it would indeed seem 'Profane' to them, but to Sulyvahn who wishes to study magic of all types but is a faithless man, it would seem absolutely fascinating instead.
The Old Chaos under Eleum Loyce is likely a completely different Chaos to the one in Izalith.
Eleum Loyce is likely located somewhere in Alken. We know this because of the Covetuous Demon and Flexile Sentries we find there. The Flexile Sentires are interestingly located in a locked room full of retainers, who are the Loyce Priestesses' attendants. We know the Flexile Sentries were the creation of some previous King, perhaps the King of Olaphis or the King of Alken that ruled alongside the Iron King. They were not Vendrick's creation, he just asked him to continue carrying out their original purpose, ferrying undead to the Lost Bastille. There are 4 Flexile Sentries. Two are in the Loyce Cave, one in the Wharf, and one in Sinners Rise. This, combined with the Sinner's missing eye and the Loyce Priestess' Eye we have to pick up, seems to tell me the Lost Sinner is a Loyce Priestess who abandone her duty. Whether she lit the Chaos, the First Flame, or a new Chaos entirely, is up for discussion. I think it's the last one, seeing as there are no Chaos Demons in Izalith.
As for the Covetuous Demon in Loyce, I think it's intended to tie into the Alken and Venn bell story.
Literally yesterday I was watching videos about this topic, trying to figure out the connections.
As you pointed out, in the Eleonora description it says that the flame was triggered by the curse of the women, and you interpreted it as they performed the curse to Alsanna. I think they were the ones cursed instead.
I think they were cursed because they committed a sin, thus the name "Monstruosity of Sin", and the sin being something similar to the one the Witch of Izalith committed trying to recretate the First Flame. I think the Profaned Flame was born similar to the Chaos Flame, by these women trying to recreate the First Flame through their dark souls, fragments of Manus, but they failed and therefore they were cursed, becoming a monster similar to Manus. Also, this would explain the link between humanity/dark/abyss and the Profaned Flame (Andre literally says that he can see the abyss in it when you give him the Profaned Coal).
Another thing that I wanted to point out is that these monsters can be found in what looks like a temple, in which you can find the miracle Wrath of the Gods. This could be linked to their curse, meaning it was a punishment by the gods and they are now sinning in a temple dedicated to these old gods.
Let me know what you think about this theory!
That's certainly a good and relevant interpretation! That's the beauty of Dark Souls, nearly endless ideas! =D
I personally think that the Profaned Flame is a fire born of the abyss. The chaos is the life lord soul gone wild just as the abyss is the dark soul gone wild, they’re similar in concept but different. There is the item the “Profaned Coal” and what Andre says about it on giving it to him that it’s “dark and he sees the abyss in it”
As fire of the abyss one would think that the flame would be black like the dark pyromancies but who knows. That what I think.
True! And makes more sense that fragments of Manus triggered the flame too!
I could say further that it reminds me of another guys theory that Darkstalker Kaathe may have had a hand in the profaned flames creation which might explain the abyss connection. Don’t know haven’t been able to remember who made that vid.
Just because we haven’t seen nor heard of any flames with abyss doesn’t mean it isn’t possible, it’s a theory so of course it’s not gonna make too much sense. So you don’t have to get mouthy.
The fact that you say what you did and say that I have to grow up is laughable due to it being a little self contradicting with a hint of self condescension. I wonder who really needs to grow up here, complaining about a low luster theory of all things.
It's all the same place. Irithyll was built above/over many layers of kingdoms/ruins, and the bottom of the stack was the land of Izalith. The Chaos Flame, created out of ambition by the Witch of Izalith, corrupts the hearts of those near it, and you see this trend in every land touched by the Chaos. The world runs in cycles, so it's not location that changes, only time.
Great Work, Jake!!
I absolutely love the Ivory King's entrance.
Keep it going brother! Fine work yet again!
Thanks, buddy! =D
Interesting take, as always, but I like it! And your editing skills are noticeably improving
Thanks dude! Means a lot you've noticed! =D
As always u outdone yourself. Got me asking more questions when I thought they been somewhat answered lol.
Another compelling video. I'm actually willing to accept this theory. But ofc having come to my own conclusions I must share. First thing I thought of when walking up to the profaned flame in the profaned capitol was of that strange place where we place souls into the Lord Vessel. The vessel containing the profaned flame looks totally like the Lord Vessel. The lordvessel is also placed far down below, although you seem to travel there by extraordinary means and given Gwyn's Kiln of the first flame is right there I would imagine it possibly being near anor londo itself. Where he can keep a close eye on it. It's also Profaned, not profane, or flame of the profane. Which seems to imply to me that it was once sacred. This also marries nicely with it being the Lord Vessel, once sacred, now mal-appropriated in this capitol. Lastly, while I do entirely think Yhorm is related to the giants of ds2, and not just in the genealogical sense, it is just as likely he is a descendant of Wolnir. But I do want to offer an interesting Forossian character that may lend itself to your theory since the king of Eleum Lloyce was once the highest ranking knight of Forossa. There was another warrior of Forossa whose description reads similarly to Yhorm: Shieldless Lothian. Dragonslayer's Crescent Axe reads, "No warrior matched the ferocity of unbeatable Lothian, but he abruptly retired from the battlefield and was never heard from again. Some say that he grew tired of the frailty of human foes, and set off to slay the legendary dragon." Legendary dragon aside, his differentiation of humans could be evident of his being a Giant, albeit of Forossa. Furthermore, his Ring of Giants reads, "The beloved ring of the gallant Shieldless Lothian, formerly of Forossa.... Lothian was born a peasant, and died a general. His determination and diligence were unmatched, especially on the battlefield, where he earned his name by choosing to fight without a shield." It was a conscious choice. This could be an unnecessary rabbit-hole as you call it. But still fun to mention. Also an unnecessary rabit-hole is his name. At first glance appears to be a combination of Lothric and Lorian, Lothian... also a place in scotland... and a river called Lothian Burn... and there's that rabbit-hole ok I'm done thanks!
Isn't the Chaos flame in ds1 a religious figure? The demons in Lost Izalith and Demon Ruins have a religious hierarchy including priest and clerics based around the Chaos flame. So wouldnt this separate the Profaned Flame from the Chaos Flame? And wouldnt the profaned flame be what Gwyn ignited with his Soul at the Kiln of the First Flame? This would explain how the flame traveled so far considering how burnt and melted the Kiln of the First Flame looks.
@@jacobhoover1654 Good point... I may be grasping at straws but all the bonfires are linked. Including the one at the Kiln. And humans for a long time were offering up humanity at the bonfires to keep from hollowing. Maybe the combo of human (dark) souls and Gwyns soul caused the profaned flame to have elements of the Abyss within it?
@@jacobhoover1654 Im pretty sure Yorm didnt link the flame until after the Profaned Flame erupted... I could be wrong let me double check on it. As far as the flame coming from the bonfires. It would make sense due to knowing so little about the bonfires and the power they obviously have stored in them. And it is profaned in nature it has no religious ties or related to faith in anyway.
Thank you! This has been my theory since first discovering the profaned flame!
Maybe she sacrifices her self eventually to chaos and the mix of her dark shard with the chaos flame creates a profane flame
I think what the lost sinner came from elyseum and they create the profane flame. They lost their eye because they was one of the priest who remove their eye and change for the item who allow you see invisible things
I'm playing ds2 for the first time right now, it's great to see some love to ds2 lore
have fun!
I know their was already a comment about this ,but how did the flame come to be. The hand monster is only their because they made the flame first. If they are the oricals daughters not her sister then they could put the abyss in the flame. The abyss in the flame is what makes it undying. The sisters of her couldnt have dont it because we killed them for their kings crowns . So much my bad
I love the video! And I somewhat believe (and does kinda make sense) that the Oracle is Alsana but hey u never know. But I love the vids I hope u make a video about the shards of manus themselves
When the answer was starring at you but you never thought to put the two together
I honestly think DS 2 is after DS 3. At this point, there's no flame to light at the end. Irithyll was a long time a go and Eleum Loyce was built on top. Alot of the areas in DS 1 and 3 are nearly gone or there were cities and areas built atop them
That's certainly an interesting way of looking at it! =O
@@TheAshenHollow Also, I think time itself was more warped in DS2 than in DS3. DS3 time began to warp as seen when the world around was almost folding in on itself while DS2, you access whole new areas with a whole different environment and time of day.
The fire keepers are no longer needed since the flame was extinguished long ago. Now only the Emerald Herald exists to keep the Player going but she maybe immortal.
Goddamn Jake! This video was unlivable. In the future could try and create a Map of the world of Dark Souls? We that all the places are interconnected, but there are so many places that are talked about that we never get to visit or know where they are.
I’ve been waiting for this.
Been thinking about what really happened in the Profaned Capital lately. Where it differs from the Bed of Chaos and the Old Chaos is it seems the Profaned flame is infused with humanity. It creates demonic creatures, but they are still human based, whereas Chaos creates creatures from both nothing and completely converting humans (or witches) into full fledged demons.
However, the Old Chaos was completely contained in Eleum Loyce, the only twisted creatures were the Ivory King and his knights; all but retaining their humanity, their form only changing as if marred by fire.
Similarly, Silver Knights became Black Knights when they were burned by Chaos.
So again we see the sadistic aristocratic nobles become Jailers in Irithyll Dungeon, and the ones in the Profaned Capital become strange perverted Keepers of the Profaned Flame.
It would make sense in one aspect of the Profaned Flame being the future Bed of Chaos, in that it seems the Profaned Flame is a much weaker, older fire than it once was. Where once there was heat enough to stir up lava, now there is merely molten gold and charred brick and mud mixed with blood and wasted.
Before it created legions of monsters, now it can scarcely convert all it touches. The vast remnants of the Capital are still massed along the edges of the ruined throne room.
It reminds me more of New Londo than Izalith, desecrated corpses everywhere, and abominations roam the ruins.
That’s the word I was looking for, the Profaned Capital and Flame are all abominations, not demonic.
Just because the Faraam set mentions a god of war, that doesn't automatically mean the nameless king.
I was thinking about that. How many historical figures have been referenced or known as the god of something
Always cool to hear a new theory
When you give the Profaned Coal to Andre, he tells you he sees the Abyss in it. Any thoughts on that?
Love your work
Are yhorm's red eyes an indication that hes a afflicted by the abyss?
Yes. Any being with red eyes, specifically humanoids have fallen to the abyss and as such take extra damage from weapons like Hollowslayer GS and the Farron UGS, and in the case of Yhorm, Windbreaker or whatever it's called.
What if what was stolen from the DS2 giants was their souls, a la darkwraith face-grabbing style, in such a manner that quite literally left holes in their faces? Could this explain why the giant lord doesn't have a face, but Yhorm does?
A note on the abyss at the flames's core, and this is just my interpretation, but... If the dark soul can split and grow and split and grow, and the abyssal dark soul of Manus could grow quickly enough to literally spawn the abyss off of himself, then if a shard of Manus, whose darkness likely continually grows over time, were made into the fuel for a flame, would they burn forever? If they produced humanity at a rate that could keep pace with or exceed the rate at which the humanity was burned, I would certainly think it would be an eternal flame. Perhaps Alsanna's sisters came to Eleum Loyce and collectively threw her into a lordvessel to burn forever as punishment for her supposed disloyalty to the Abyss?
Edit: I've always thought the axe demons in ds3 looked far more like Manus than like Tauros demons, specifically for their eyes, horns, and the sheer length of their tails. Perhaps Alsanna or another being with an intensely dark soul was ignited with the flame of chaos, and from then on, the chaos and the abyss became even more irrevocably linked than they already were?
While I agree that DS3 is predominantly a DS1 sequel, I would argue that it's possible that lands from DS2 could appear here, because of how the lands of past Lords of Cinder are converging around Lothric.
Dunno if anybody mentioned it yet, they probably have, but a spiteful act from her sister(s) towards Alsanna makes perfect sense. Elana is the shard bearing Manus’ Anger and Wrath, and Nashandra his Desire and Greed. No idea how to involve Nadalia in it though. Maybe it was just Elana?
When it says relatives it could mean he descents instead of her sisters, it isn’t known if she had any kids with the ivory king but you never know. Perhaps it means that her descendants cause the flame to rage once again after being dormant.
So are you saying that Loyce is irithyll? If that's the case than wouldn't Anor Londo be visible above it? Unless you're trying to say they moved the old chaos/profane flame to it.
I may just be confused on what you said, but there are quite a few similarities. I would say that the old chaos was supposed to be The Chaos, as we don't really know any other force or flame that would be it. Which the fact that people around the profane flame were malformed could show similarities to the chaos flame, as it did turn Izalith's people into deformed demons. However with the weakening of it's flame, the changes it made to people also dwindled. That along with the fact it grew with the first flame. As the Lords took their power from the age of fire, that would explain how Chaos could survive for so long(as all flames fade) and why the profane flame increased when Yhorn burned himself.
I've always thought that Gwynns first son sided with the dragon so would oppose linking the flame and extending the age?
If this were the case wouldn't the ivory king also oppose?
Maybe he was fighting by his side when he hadn't betrayed his father and sided with the dragons yet. Since he was called the God of war and not the nameless king.
4:50
Is that really logical? The Firstborn was kicked out for his disagreements with Gwyn, so how can one assume he follows the linking of the fire?
Pontiffs cloak is like the retainers robe
Why didn't they just splash some water on the profaned flame that would have snuffed it for sure as a matter of fact why didn't they do that with the flame of chaos man all the bad things caused could have been avoided if they only had some water
Nice one man. I just didn't get the connection between Sulyvahn and Eleum Loyce / Ancient Profaned Capital quite well, since it's known he came from - and even was Born in - the painted world of Ariandel... You mean he came from there or the place where he discovered the Profaned Sword / Flame was Old Eleum Loyce (i.e before becoming the Profaned Capital)? But I'm not sure, maybe I'm missing something. Thanks for the video man!
The creators of dark souls lore are fucking genius heroes.
Yeah you are up to something. There is probably some connection, but the profane flame is not the chaos flame, since they both co exist in Das3. The way i see it is that at some point, Alsanna, attempted to control the part of the chaos that was threatening her land, like the witch of Izalith before her. She had some success with it, but that flames nature changed to be fueled by the rampant humanity of Manus. Losing control leads to corruption of ones humanity, instead of a chaotic mutation of life.
I was saying I think the Profane Flame was tied to the Flame of Chaos and when Yhorm snuffed it out it started the extinction of the Demons.
My theory is that every element has a "corrupt" form
Dark > Abyss/Deep
Life > Chaos
Crystal > Curse
Fire > Profane flame
They all seem to have a desire to spread and control
heck, you could count the poison swamps as the corrupt version of Nito's soul
Though I can't say we see a corrupt form of Gwyn's light or lightning.
Lightning is literally a crystalized form of light in the series. Its alread a corruption of it
@@Orthanderis interesting thought, that means gwyn was corrupted when seath taught him lightning. The whole age of fire was born of corruption.
@@ripperman25 seems about right to be honest, the war was only won thanks to lightning, Seath was obsessed with crystal research and eventually crystalized magic, and lightning is crystalized light. On top of that crystal was a substitute for the everlasting scales he lacked.
The real question is thus; did Seath discover how to create lightning and give it to Gwyn, thus earning his dukedom and the grand archives? Because if thats the case then the age of fire was indeed born out of the corruption of natural elements, because without utilizing that corruption the everlasting dragons would never have been genocided.
That reaffirms that the Abyss is the natural order of the world and the light souls of the first flame are corrosive to it, not vice versa.
So lets say Gwyn had no problem corrupting the natural elements to serve his purposes, but realized he couldnt control or corrupt the dark; the deep and the abyss are both human induced corruptions after all, and humans can only recreate miracles due to reading the stories of the gods who created them. Kind of explains why he feared humanity so much he branded them with a ring of fire to keep them out of the dark; he realized he destroyed the natural order of the world and it was quickly returning to equilibrium, he was terrified of the monsters he created in the dark he couldnt control and realized humanity, who he had subjugated and done everything in his power to steal their godhood, would continue as they are while him and his people couldn't survive without the source of their power. That explains why he used humans to link the first flame; he linked it to humanity, to the dark soul, the only being that could actually survive in both the dark and the light, ensuring that even if the flame faded it would return.
Tldr; Seath corrupted life by crystalizing magic and light, stripping and granting eternal life respectively outside the natural order.
Izalith corrupted life and made chaos, which spawned demons, a wholy unnatural race that exists seperate from both the dark and the first flame.
Nito corrupted life when he brought people back from death, granting them a false life outside the natural order.
Gwyn corrupted life when he branded humanity with the undead curse, which only comes about as the fire wanes; Gwyn, in essence, corrupted life by forcing it onto humanity, giving them a mortal life seperate from the immortality of the dark, and linking them forever to the first flame, inadvertantly dooming them to a state of eternally being stuck between life and death until the flame goes out, and forcing the dark soul to act as kindling in order to keep the age of fire going.
Wait, so is Irythil and the Profaned Capital the same? Why hasn't Irythil been consumed by the Profaned Flame like the Profaned Capital? And why is the Profaned Capital at the Underground of Irithyl? To me, an Underground city is extremely unlikely and the only reason why they are close together is because the lands are twisting around the souls of the Lords of Cinder (Yhorm and Aldrich).
Part of the lore of Irithyl feels very strange to me, because atop of it is Anor Londo and it seems that Gwyndolyn has been the deity of Irythil for quite some time before Sullyvahn came along.
It COULD be that Anor Londo IS Irythil. Hear me out for a bit: After a long time, in Lordran, the flame of chaos that had been formed in Izalith got closer and closer to Anor Londo. And after successive linkings of the fire, people have slowly started occupying Lordran again (and Anor Londo), which ended up having its name as Eleum Loyce.
HOWEVER, we don't see Anor Londo in Eleum Loyce, and Gwyndolin is nowhere to be seen around Eleum Loyce during the events of Dark Souls 2. And this doesn't have a lot of consistency.
And this doesn't explain at all why PC is underground :(
Is this the video that came out yesterday and was taken down??? I got my hopes up yesterday I love these videos
Also I think Yhorm is the same kind of giant that was in DS2, the DS2 giants are just.. whatever their equivalence of going hollow is?
Nah, i think DS2 giants are a different species with the same name.
They are completely different in anatomy and also death. There is a pretty big difference between becoming a tree and rotting away like DS1/3 giants do. Also a huge hole on your face is enough of a difference for me.
Tfw you see all these cool dark souls 2 areas and have only just beat the mirror knight
Not bad. But isn't Yhorm the descendant of Wolnir? Wolnir is a great and mighty conqueror that was buried not far from the Profaned Capital.
I don't think so. I also don't think Wolnir is actually as big as we witness him!
@@TheAshenHollow Yeah, even by giant standards, Wolnir is suspiciously large. His crown fits him, despite being made of 3 other crowns. Meaning, either its inflated in size by the space magic we fight him in or he killed some extremely large kings in his day
I've been struggling with DS lore coz I've canonized, decanonized and canonized DS2 a number of times now. I dont even know whats real anymore
@@MediocreSix lol i basically know nothing of ds2 im stuck on ds1 and ds3 lore rn i played through ds3 and thought i understood a lot but then started watching lore videos while playing through ds1 i now know i knew nothing but i do know a bit more now thankfully its just piecing shit etc i probably know 1/6th lore of ds1 and ds3
I have noticed an interesting pattern: every time we see a Chaos, Profaned or in general an Evil and Corrupting flame in the dark souls universe, we see that flame taking the form of a tree-like root structure, or creating structures like this.
And, if my memory doesn't fool me, there was only one tree-like creature who specifically created demons to satiate his hunger for souls...
Aldia?
@@music79075 other than that big head Boi, I mean, he hasn't created soul-hunting demons so he doesn't count.
How can far can a flame travel? Well good question and makes me think more about how fire in dark souls is completely different than fire we know.... But to what extent are they different and similar
Edit that we know for sure... Just food for thought would love some ideas into this
Could there also be a connection between the First Flame, the Chaos Flame, and the Profane Flame, or one and the same, because who knows what lengths Gwyn went to to keep the gods as gods
The main issue with your theory I see is that Aldrich is from Irithyll, and he is also in the DS1 comics. Going off that I'm led to believe Irithyll actually predates Eleum Lloyce. Good video regardless.
I agree complety with this
I personally really like Dark souls 2 as it brought a lot to the table Lore wise and there are interesting things that this game introduced and expanded on... _"b-but muh gameplay"_ crowd really ended up giving this game a bad rep.
Hope you do some more videos on Dark Souls 2.
having played it with an open mind. The bad rep is well deserved as most the GOOD lore happens during new game + and after getting an item and exploring. That is a lot to slog through, and a lot of the game was not that fun, more so to play co-op. The first play through doesn't show case much lore outside "member this from dark souls" .
If the new game+ big boss souls were in the first play through , and some of the design choices more fluid, It would have been better.
example: it should take a new game plus play through to realize you fought the witch Izilythe (sp)
question not related to the video: if Lorian killed the Demon Prince, how is it that we fight the Demon Prince before entering the Ringed City?
Time is fucky in darksouls
This is not the same prince, one of the two demons became a new prince after uniting with the other, that is why it has a different special move based on the surviving demon.
Look this is a long shot but you have said throughout the video that things are similar and somewhat coincidences but i have been thinking that Dark Souls 2 and 3 are parrales worlds and each world happens based on the ending you choose in Dark Souls 1 and with parralel worlds things can be similar yet different and things like you have shown somewhat have evidence too that.
Never ending amount of loose ends to tie together in these games
It definitely feels like that sometimes! xD
Hi Ashen, great video as always what song are you playing at 1:33 the piano?
2:22 Idk, ask Australia
oof
I don't think chaos is inherently profane; the end of fire could have been prevented via the Chaos Flame if Gwyn didn't have a god complex. Gwyn was the one who profaned it.
Just a hypothesis
Why doesn’t anyone talk about the silver and black knight similarities between the loyce knights like gwyn and the ivory king are so similar
4:52 yeet
7:49 day
8:42 hmm
NEED MOAR SOULS CONTENT
Eveybody ready for mortal shell that will have new lore.
I'm really confused.. I thought dark souls 2 story doesn't link up with the story told through 1 and 3 but this video that is for "dark souls 3" used a lot of ds2 dlc lore which confused the hell out of me 😂
Dark Souls 2 is 1000% canon.
@@TheAshenHollow I know its cannon just after hundreds of hours on trying to figure out the complete story and where it fits, I'm still lost😭😭😂😂🤦♂️
Sometimes I swear I'm just a wee bit dense
Getting caught up now, cant wait for more DS2 stuff!
The Oracle is wife materiel while her sisters are like super evil gold diggers
This is exactly what I thought when I first dealt with the profaned capitol! Thank you!
Wooooo more lore!
Mmh yes. Grant us eyes.
I wonder if the descriptions of items in the game's native language may clarify some confusion. The English translation of the game is far from perfect.
Almost certainly, haha! =D
Luck you are not south american
So here's my question: How did Yhorm put the Profaned Flame to rest by becoming a Lord of Cinder?
Ahhh I LOVE IT 😻
Have you started dark souls 4?! You would know more than the makers and I don’t think they are making anymore lol
Lore me sensei.
If only the Profaned Captial wasn't just a hodge-podge of assets from prior iterations of the game-resused to try and convince us there was coherency to any of this game.
Which there wasn't.
We're doing the writing for them 🤷♂️
Well we do do a lot of writing for the game, whether that's cleverly intended by them or not, I wouldn't have it any other way. What other games can you go into this kind of theory crafting depth with? =D
@@TheAshenHollow Oh it's not like I think it's a bad thing: it's an incredible rush to have things click together in a big way.
Here's a few just so there aren't in my head alone
1. The Hollow Lord symbol is from Boletaria, it's on the banners
2. Gwyn's light unbolt in DS1 is a branch of a tree
3. The goo in Sen's fortress is humanity ground out of Men by the trial
4. The Egg iconography is featured in DS1 on Berenike night's shield, also with four wings like a dragon sprouting from it. One guards Velka's shrine in the Undead Parish.
5. Blood moon in DS2 intro opens the abyssal-time-dream whirl-pool. You're awoken by a bell-ringing maiden to act like a red-phantom on her behalf, into a dream realm above and unattached to the rest but mimicking a specific place.
I don't think you can separate all of the games lore, even if the creators are legally obligated to.
Every game makes more sense when you introduce another one: even Sekiro has breadcrumbs that explain why many particle effects dealing with the "curse" are Sakura leaves.
I just realized how long that comment already is. I've got a lot more if you'll entertain the premise they aren't entirely separate but legally separate because of corporate obligations.
Honestly I believe most of darksouls 2 was retconned.
No...? Not even slightly..
i need subtitle !!!