It was supposed to be an updated mp privateer and a new wing commander campaign - thats what sq42 was supposed to be. Proper context needs those to be what was thought of as immersive. Tuning the inventory and changing fuses was not on the cards, more along that you'd save by going or clicking on a bed. But they started with a fps engine.
I would say the main issue, at least for me, is that CIG seem to be choosing the wrong things to make sim-like, and the wrong things to be arcady. I could enjoy a lengthy prep time, lots of maintenance on my ship and detailed survival mechanics if the flight model and fps combat design was as sim-like as possible. Spending lots of time stocking up on items, keeping my character fed, watered, washed, keeping my ship maintained only to be met with the flight model from Starfield and some FPS combat that makes CoD feel like a milsim is just not something I am interested in. There is no coherent vision for the game at the moment and no matter what side of the sim/arcade spectrum you sit on there is enough here to annoy you.
For me it feels cig dosnt even know what they do. The realism stops Just with the Star systems. Just Take a Look at Pyro, Pyro 1 has Temperaturen around 200 degree, at the Same time monox with nearls the Same distance to the sun has -70 degree, Same as Terminus. And everywhere npcs running around in Shirts and you have Open Houses. Thats only one example. Nothing about Pyro makes Sense. Its a complete immersion breaker for me and since then im not interested at all to Login anymore
what makes FPS not realistic? crossaim? for me that makes sense that in future helmet hubs and weapon accesories will have a help to the shooter . I mean taking in consideration Lore its futuristic CiG its keeping stuff quite nerf. I can imagine autoguide bullets , laserbeams that obliterate mass , you can go crazy but instead they keeping and down to earth perspective and weapons are not overpowerfull. Combat feels realistic and not really fast , as Cod for example . Animations are spot on when they are not laggy adding another layer of realism I dont see since Perfect Dark 64. NPC reaction to leg shots or things like that are really good . Armor feels good too not to strongh not to weak , meds also works fine not giving a huge advantage, The only thing I can see people can see as arcade its to have a HUD and a minimap , and to be fair considering what thecnologies could we have in future I dont see those features unrealistic.
@luampastudio62 For me, the hit markers, an especially the kill markers, take away a lot of the tactics. Combined with a very long time to kill and you end up with a run and gun shooter where firing in roughly the right direction and using the hit markers to sight in is the most effective way to engage targets. Matter of preference of course, but it certainly doesn't favour a slow and tactical approach.
@@texnorthman I agree with the hit markers and kill feedback, they should at least have the option to turn that off, but the time to kill is high if you are in heavy armor, unarmored is almost instant kill, the bunker NPCs that are using just gang clothing are droped pretty quick like one shot to the head or two or tree somewhere else, it also depends on the weapon you're using so SMGs will not be so strong against heavy, this is no Starfield shooting, or even Fallout 76 shooting, i mean, even in Stalker which has a pretty good system, when you are in exoskeleton heavy armor, you last a pretty good time taking shots granted, you will be a in a pretty bad shape after, so it's not like i feel comfortable taking shots in SC, and even NPCs can kill you if you're not in some sort of cover, i play in light armor due to it being pretty cheap and functional and have to be mindful of that when taking on bunkers, just being careful and using good cover and tactics has helped me rarely die in these missions, although some times it does get pretty close when NPCs where responsive and push in a team, stealth helps a lot avoiding that of course.
100% agree. I say this all the time: CIG has a game design problem. And that's way more worrying than the bugs/tech issues because bugs & tech issues is guaranteed to *eventually* get resolved but game design issues are *not* guaranteed to eventually get resolved. There's so many things that CIG can very easily do right now that can add so much to the game & create/improve lots of gameplay, but they're just not seeing it somehow. Meanwhile the community is so short-sighted & emotional that all they do is complain about bugs or other pointless things & sometimes even childish things(like crying about the fact that they have to interact with other people in an MMO).
6:11 In regards to bed logging. They never actually explicitly said that logging out in your bed was the only way to log out (and respawn in the same place). What they said was that logging out in your bed would despawn the ship/character so that you don't get griefed while not playing; this feature still makes sense in todays game.
They tied a stretch goal to the idea of being a "long haul" explorer and logging out in your ship. You can look it up, $14 million. Technically it'll still be true, but the "hibernation mode" they stated in that stretch goal I think laid out a different understanding for how logging on and off would work.
@@SpaceTomatoyou can read save and resume as anything you want. Being teleported back home because you disconnected is immersion breaking anyway and silly if your cup in the forest persists for 5 years in that spot.
Arcadey isn't the word id use for the wheel selection, and new loot screens. Clunky, is the word i would use. I get that the wheel select makes gamepads easier to navigate, but they just don't work well with a Mouse and KB. While some may disagree, I personally feel that you should use a system which works best with the HID being used. E.g. wheels when using controller, and menus for mouse and KB. If you design arround one and not the other, all you do is ruin the experience for the audience who perfers to use the one you didn't design arround.
I’m fine with the game becoming multifaceted, I even want that. I just don’t agree when it starts to feel like a game driven off ship sales has less development for ship focused activities than it does for FPS activities. We have contested zones in Pyro and the mention of the instanced FPS zones in area 18, but nothing on the radar involving ship combat, while combat focused ships make up the majority of ships on the store.
i think as SC grows more complex, the intactions need to become more streamlined and simplified to counter how obtuse the entire SC experience is. So I'm all for quality of life improvements that make interactions less tedious.
@@Armory508 You think it's getting *more* complex? I totally agree with your statement, I just feel they are dumbing down the gameplay and leaning into the obtuse interactions.
The moment the community and devs start saying "we have to appeal to a wide range," it looses it's dedicated playerbase who would stay for the long haul. No. You have to build a game for the players who are going to stick with you.
@@AnymMusic not really getting your point as it had nothing to do with Rushing's comment, SC, or CIG. CIGs original community took them to a fantastic financial footing. mainstream games that follow the pack and whatever hot fad is popular may make a big initial hit, but have no staying power. they fade fast. derivative games that copy other successful games' mechanics or looks or feel are simply pathetic knockoffs that seldom make back their initial cost of production. popular games, usually branded as "niche", have a habit of lasting for years, if not decades. turning a unique game like SC into an expensive derivative of EVE Online is CIG cashing out. the only dumb idea is believing it's anything else...
They really gotta re-tool all the turret traversals by size/mounting type. To make them make sense. Tbh I also still want to see larger guns have longer range. like a s3 has a 2.8km range, but s4 would have like 3.8km or so. S7 would probably be around 7km. Likewise, even torpedoes/missiles I feel like should have an acceleration curve, like over a certain distance they reach a max velocity, but their ability to maneuver lessens as they accelerate, and understanding those distances could allow more tactical play from missile users, as higher velocities may allow those missiles to avoid some hits from PDCs (which maybe should be dulled in their accuracy slightly.)
They are more useful than before, is the point. Still work to be done on them like speeding up tracking for sure, but anybody who used turrets before 3.16 probably gets where I'm coming from.
Instead of worrying about what they say we need to worry about what they are doing. They can’t even get us a game that doesn’t lock players in servers. Most of these things like removing inventory’s are very small changes no matter how many times you tell yourself they change the game in a big way. It’s stuff we should have had years ago. Living off of what “Chris said” doesn’t seem to get us very far.
Once the game is finished and released, it would be cool if anybody buying it after release would start with no ships, this would fill the verse with crew working to get their first ship.
I've long maintained a great way to get more players in would be to release a $10 "starter" package, where you just get the ability to play. Add some missions where you have to do package deliveries in starter cities, or clean up trash laying around, or even go out and repair little bits around the city with a salvage gun. A P-52 and an Aurora ES are both under 500k AUEC, and you wouldn't be limited in going places and doing other stuff - you'd just need to hitch a ride or crew up with someone.
hell, why not now? i would never ask any of my friends to subject themselves to the buggy state the game is in for 45$, but for 10$ i could use a gunner, hell, id pay for it myself. It would mean that when a random new player with no ship logs in and needs quick cash, and my Scorpius needs a gunner for some HRTs, we both get something very valuable out of working together that neither of us would get otherwise. Hell, he can fly it sometimes too.
Exactly. CIG has to be mindful abput the complexity of each game system so that the total experience is manageable and enjoyable. The complexity of each system compounds in different contexts.
It's too much PvP. Rather than having a game that works for both types of players they are confusing high-risk high reward with PvP. A single-player button like ED has would be nice. This would also let them balance the game for PvP rather than putting effort into trying to get griefers not to grief.
Or a passive mode like GTA V online. You know when you want to be left alone instead of being forced into providing someone else's fun at the cost of your time and your fun.
This but without breaking immersion : just let people go wherever they want and stop funneling them into each others faces. Don't have a limited mission pool where everybody is doing the same mission fighting over the same tiny bone all the time. Don't limit quantum jumps to nav points only. Don't make scanners too powerful at range. It should not be feasible for a single person to scan an entire planet for settlements or players. This gives players the option to choose missions that sound like they will end up in conflict or not. Like some involve rapid opportunities and you'll end up with multiple opportunists. And others are just business as usual or plain own initiative that nobody knows about, you won't run into others unless you don't look at your own scanners and are unlucky.
In many ways CIG gameifies the wrong things while making Putting too much realistic friction on things that shouldn't have it. Sometimes I get the impression the devs have never actually played a game before in their lives! 😆
CIG removed ship inventory WAAAAYYYY too early, before the replacement systems (like Gear Lockers) were even in the bloody game yet, once again putting the cart so far ahead of the horse you'll need mile-long reins. Most ship STILL don't even have internal storage lockers, there's NO WAY to transfer items from a box to the lockers even if they have them. You can't transfer between boxes, the whole damn system is SEVERELY lacking. We ***NEED*** the ability to transfer items DIRECTLY from the Item Bank to the ship storage locker from the FPS Storage Bank.
There's also the observation that the replacment is just plain bad while also not being immersive. Dragging a box around with us because they don't want to gameify the inventory is absurd because it pulls people out of the experience. By adding that inconvenience fractures the experience.
@@RN1441 Agreed. I'm all for "immersion", but there needs to be a point where it's interfering with the 'fun' of the gameplay. Jared used to say something along the lines of 'create in ultimate realism then dial back to fun. Some things should be physicalized. But personal inventory should NOT be one of them. Times like this make it clear to me that the CIG devs/leaders don't actually PLAY the game the way we do. If they did, they'd be designing it differently. I think the only thing the devs do is PVP ship-to-ship combat. That's where they keep focusing all their time/energy. That's the only thing you hear them talking about. We NEVER hear them talking about how much fun they had dragging around a 2scu box to loot the bunkers they did that day. Or how much they enjoyed spending 2 hours getting spare armor/weapons into their Carrack for a multicrew set of FPS missions. We never hear about it because they NEVER DO IT.
@@Zeoran Yeah, they gotta work on deepening (and adding) the fun parts (Combat, crafting, hauling, engineering, flight), and lightening the tedious parts (Inventory management, food and drink, prep work, long distance travel, etc.)
I'm not sure how much choice they had when they want to make sure physicalized cargo works with the server meshed system. Would have been really nice to have lockers before that, for sure, though.
@@SpaceTomato We're still using the old inventory system, we just interface with it through the FPS Banks now. So the old system still exists & works. They could have kept the ship internal inventory. And the game still thinks it exists too. If you die while onboard your ship, the armor your wearing will be transported to the ships internal inventory, you just don't have the ability to access it anymore. But this is the crap I'm talking about. They're putting the cart SOOO far in front of the horse here. Most ships don't even have storage lockers yet, the ones that do don't work right and there's no way to even get crap into them in the first place since we can't open more than one container at a time, which is another MAJOR oversight on CIG's part. If they can't put all the systems into the game required for a particular feature at the same time, that's fine, I get it. But then you don't remove/destroy/eliminate the existing system that was working fine, leaving players screwed in the meantime while you take months-years to get shit working properly again.
Allowing 1000+ kilometers per second of "realspace" movement in an online game was a mistake to start with. The only travel at/above those speeds should have been "quantum boost"/quantum travel. Tracking 100s of players and 1000s/10s of 1000s of objects moving at 1000km/s is not exactly something servers are known for doing well.
Not to mention that combat at 1000+ m/s only gives seconds of interaction. It also completely invalidates fleet combat. In order for fleet combat to work with those systems, you would need those larger ships to be able to engage at long distances.
@@jeffrbakefleet combat is in the word, it's for boats. You'll never see jet fighters hover face to face in line of sight of the enemy getting into position like the fighters in the cinematics.
@@StarryeyedStarCitizen right. It's a weird combination of WWII style combat (no long range fighting), but futuristic speeds. Doesn't mix well, which is what MM attempts to address. Either way, until ship damage is physically realized, no sense in making big changes.
Really enjoying the thought behind the segments, comparisons and considerations of the systems that CIG have put in, are planning and how they work together. You're really drawing the web of "everything that SC is" together to a few red threads in a way very few manage to draw and make sense of. It's well done and always a pleasure to see another video drop. You're also dropping in a rich slew of b-roll, don't tire yourself out as these are a lot of cuts in succession and a lot of the same effect is achieved with fewer while not overwhelming the viewer in moments you mention specific points while showing them. Keep it up dude
tbh the ammopacking is the best feature by far. how often did i have 10 - 20 half empty magazins flying around in my inventory. i love that. regarding bed logging. the point where people say it makes it too easy just to log out from everywhere. when you are on a long haul ( when it become a thing) you still have to use your bed to log out if you want to take a break. so there are some pros and cons to the changes. i dont like the artificial speedlimit but i understand why its in. and no one says thats something that stays in the game. aerodynamics is something that is much more needed than speedlimits.
10:31 This my most “Wishing/Want” for the game is bringing a system to some ships the ability to “Stow/Deploy” hard-points for weapons or utilities. I very much enjoyed how E.D. made this simple concept of a design speak volumes on your intensions. I don’t have the time or desire to post in spectrum, but if anyone capable and wants to post this comment on my behalf you have my permission to please do so. I hope it could find some influence within the community to gain traction with the development team to be a new gold ship standard or even simpler of just being standard of a new ship model or a redesign to a few specific archetype of ship variants as long as it does’t cause deliverables to be delayed or over budget. Your Average Citizen, Mahalo, 🤙🏾
Actually I would have been very happy with a freelancer online. That's kind of what I thought we were getting when I 1st pledged in 2013. And that game probably could have been out 5 years ago!
I am fairly new to SC, but I've been in gaming likely longer than a lot of you have been alive. I LOVE SC, I wish I found it 10 years ago. I love every aspect about it, when it works. I feel some of the things they are changing/adding are things that are needed to get and keep the most players they can in the game. After all, they are a company, their ultimate goal will be to release the game and still make money on it after. Logging in and out was one of the first things I noticed about SC and how frustrating it was to have to continually restart any extended exploration I wanted to do from a hab, instead of where I left off. To me, THIS is a welcome and needed change. An easy way to keep bed logging as a viable option would be to add a benefit to it. Maybe a health buff when you wake up for X amount of time, either way, bed logging MUST work in EVERY ship.... As for the menu's an UI... Yeah, I kinda find myself on the side of, ''needs re-doing/updating''. Overall I like where the game is going and, based on the most recent CitCon, I like what they have planned and feel that ''overall'' it will really flesh out SC as a whole game and experience, which, I feel is what most people will be looking for.
completely agree with the points made. i am still new to Star Citizen but the lack of a proper tutorial with the complex controls can feel overwhelming at times. also i dont mind having a gamepad for fps combat and joysticks for flight controls, i think each adds its own flavor to the game. what may be a solution to some for the crosshairs maybe add customization options for the helmets outside of the options menus that way you could directly control what the hud displays and how it looks
It's because the games systems are so inconsistent how they are handled. Needing to walk every piece of my gear into a ship to store it is very realistic. Pulling 50G's because I turned off the magic speed drive that was added so new players don't crash is very arcade like. Neither of which flow well.
@@russellburns205 it's all give and take. The logic behind most of the design choices CIG has made when balancing player expectation vs gameplay reality seems mostly consistent in my eyes.
I like your parameters for a sim and I think it’s a perspective that many lack. It doesn’t need to one for one match the world we live in. Just needs to be consistent in the world it’s representing.
SC being realistic is fine, however it's a whole different matter when even the most basic tasks become tedious chores. I brought a lot of friends on the game during the last free flight, and they all stopped playing after a week. The number 1 reason, beside the pisspoor performances (not getting 45fps even with high end setups), was because of how everything in the game took so much time to do, often being unnecessary long all for the sake of 'realism'. It sure is immersive to spawn in your quarter, walk through the city, go to the train station, take the train to the spacesport, and then leave the atmosphere in your ship... But it's also super long. It's an amazing experience the first time (if it doesn't lag), but it soon become boring. I can understand new players leaving the game when they take half an hour just to leave their home planet. The new physical cargo made it even worse since now we have to load/unload our cargo by hand, and we don't have any NPC to help us.
This is my issue as well. When I have dedicated hours to actually mine or salvage, half that time is reloading my game after a random disconnect and having to tool up and get back to where I was.
Excellent video. I've been a continuing backer for 8 years because Star Citizen is the only space based multiplayer sandbox game that gives me even a small feeling of living in space. I don't back because of a "vision" of future gameplay, but because I enjoy the game now.
SC will never see a 1.0 release. It will never make back a fraction of the investment sunk into it. But at least they'll have some code to sell when they inevitably run out of other people's money.
I don't think they ever said that bed logging was the intended way to access and leave the game. It was for a long time just the mechanism they had implemented because persistence wasn't a thing. I've always assumed that we would be eventually able to log in and out where we left off...but only once persistence was in.
I was sold the "best damn space sim ever". Now, I feel like they're going for the "best damn planet sim ever". NewCIG and 1.0 sells us more and more time planetside and doing things on planets, landing zones, player bases and stations. It's all spending less time in actual space in your jpg ship except going from landing-point A to landing-point B. What happened to the idea of loading up and disappearing into deep space? That was the whole idea of ships with living quarters, wasn't it? I don't want to hang out in atmo 99% of the time!
Keenan, you have a finely crafted style of delivering the just right amount of these informative videos that inspires a balance of optimism and progressive criticism promoting deeper understanding and clear vision of game development to be digested by anyone with an open mind. What makes this the best to me is that you have stated many times over you are not a game developer but a game player enthusiast. This beautifully structured of a well thought out finely written scripts are unmatched especially when the timings of video clips that are perfectly lined up with precision to emphasize the highlights of the script for the video. Between other content creators within the SC community, like, DigThat32, TheAstro Pub, Sodium Michael, Morphologis just to name my top few. I see the hard work put in by you & your wife while being in a challenging live streaming timezone(s) of both Turkey and California, (trust me I know that one all to well) I see the value hard work your team puts in your videos, my mind keep asking the same question every year, “Why doesn’t this youtube channel have such a slow growth rate respected to the piers I listed?” besides the set back from that disastrous flood you guys experienced awhile back that cause all kinds of strife. I’m sending prayers and wishes for the universe to help make 2025 the year @SpaceTomato to break through the 100k mark of RUclips subscribers! o7 Safe travels & Godspeed my friend on all of your future endeavors!
Well, it's been 12 years and the number of supporters have grown, the amount of $$$ poured in has grown, so has users expectations. CIG will be crazy not to rebalance. The key is finding the sweet spot and/or given options that can persist across the verse and cater to different playstyles. I don't enjoy the long commute to spaceport but I love to customise and arm my ships for the mission. I also enjoy quality of life enhancements like fast looting but dumb down the flight model too much and I wouldn't be able to pull off fancy maneuvers on my fancy sticks. As for the FPS (ground) portions, as long as it's like Mass Effect Andromeda, SC will be in good shape. I have not gone to the forum in years... This year, I'm upgrading my rig to 9950X3D. Already have the 7900XTX, so I think it's time to really get into SC in anticipation of SQ42.
You did a great job of highlighting one of the problems with Star Citizen. I heard someone else say that the first 10 years of "development" was all spit-balling: they didn't have a clear vision of the destination. I 100% agree with that. Now, they have to have many of the systems finalized and it is schizophrenic: it is inconsistent in its approach and that is a turn-off to both sides of the gameplay spectrum.
I ok with most changes the Bed log IMO should stay but they could also put a bed / chair in the hanger so you can log off in there too. MM I just think the flight is too slow 400- 500 feels better for a fast fighter with out boost boost should give you only a little more top end speed but to get to the speed faster. ( IMO ) the FPS changes are fine. looting should be easier if you have a back pack or a box, to make it fun. we all like good loot LOL . we have time to disable now so when we getting repair ? which is needed. also internet on the mobiglass why can we not search for a say a set of armour or ship component to find out where to buy it ? and or purchase it and get it delivered to your home base / station . this would / could open a mission to a player or NPC which ever take the mission in time . and is delivered in X days depends on distance and system they are in. I dream of a good game . I hope some of it works and in a stable condition
A new feature they should add is called Stability. Also I would liked to see a video about how long it took to make other large games. I know this game is very different, but it might help to put things in perspective. I just can't understand why NPC are standing on tables and why elevators don't work.
My previous video talks all about the drive to stability they are trying for! For the video idea, I'm not a game dev and can't comment on other games. I do know that NPCs generally stoof on chairs because of the way they were loaded in and out of the game as assets. They would be de-loaded undergoing an animation, and when loaded back in the system was not suited to reset those animations in coordination with the way the game engine worked. That's why we're seeing less NPCs doing that now, they were able to refactor that part of the engine. The elevators don't work for similar reasons. They are built on a logistics system that was made for Cryengine, smaller games. The team is currently rewriting that system to work with the backend they built (server meshing), which is why we are currently waiting for the transit refactor. Feel free to swing by the streams with more questions! Always happy to answer them!
0:23 WAIT WHAT?!! Logging in and logging out? Im assuming logging out where ever you are and log back in to be in the same exact place where you logged out?
A game like this needs to appeal to most people with how many roles there will be. Since it doesn't focus on one aspect like ship flying, it's now balancing out to make everything viable. One of the changes that backs this idea is the economy changes cause bounty hunting/smuggling was the most profitable till the change. Now it's more equal. Sims can be too aggravating at times which can drastically drop player numbers. To being too arcade like which can make things too repetitive and boring. One thing I don't get why people are so against is gamepad use. It should have the option to use gamepads cause it makes the game more accessible to people with physical disabilities. It also opens it to HOTAS support. Making the game more accessible is a positive so it gives players choices on how to play. Game development is all about balance to everything in your game has purpose. One role to the next if one role is too powerful the others the other roles have no purpose. Mastermodes I find weird cause we have power management we should just be able to use the power management terminal. I would like to have my shields on while I warp. I do think you shouldn't have your warp function on while having guns and shields. It should be guns OR shields if you have warp on. To balance a bit. Last point as if now the game just needs to be polished more before adding anything new, I like were it is now and the current direction it pretty balanced gameplay wise and the basic components are there. I'd like them to refine what they have now and build upon it.
I think the vision was always leaning more towards arcade. The complexity seems to have originated in the stretchgoals which then in turn required more mechanics
For me three things need to be rectified. 1. Beam citizen. The hand held tractor range is ridiculously OP, looks stupid and makes things comical. 2. X markers when shooting. This isn't COD, removes tension and tactics when in PVP FPS. 3. Hovering. This seems like it's being looked at, but evrything hovering mames VTOL pointless. It kills skill in atmo flying, it should be less forgiving and need practice / skill. As it is now, Arcade mode.
As long as its fun but innovative and immersive. I dont mind a bit more casual gameplay because a game of this scale needs more players to feel more alive. If we limit the playerbase to a niche, then thats all we're going to get out of a community, is a niche. And Id rather have a broad community than a niche one because the niche ones tend to critique the smallest details when the broader ones don't care as long as it is fun.
Being a sim means simulating everything we know about in physics and the real world realistically. The space for imagination are the things we don't know about. Space is a vacuum. We know because we have been there and looked. This has to stay, because we know for sure. There are no tractor beams in real life, but who is to say there couldn't be? This is left to imagination, because we don't know. Just being a consistent system isn't a sim. Candy Crush is consistent, things have a way they work and they always work that way, but it isn't a sim. Elder Scrolls Online has a consistent set of rules, things work in specific ways, but that doesn't mean it is a sim.
I find weird how SC feels both too realistic and too arcadey at the same time. I like some of the realistic aspects of it... but the stuff like dead of a spaceman for instance not so much, I'd prefer if there was a "hardcore mode" or other kind of death penalties. Stuff like bed logging could be easily solved by allowing you to log anywhere but if you do it in bed, you get some buff rewards when you return like health buff, and whatnot (perhaps the opposite where you get debuffed for not logging into a bed, but I think the prospect of a reward is better than a punishment in general). I liked flying before master modes, and I like the physicality of having to go places to do things, but I do not like how restrictive the inventory feels right now. I think the problem is that we all want different things but it is impossible to make 100 of game design choices that satisfies everyone.
Problem is all the things you listed as "getting more complex" are not expansions. Those things have always been on the drawing board. Control surfaces is not a new expanded idea. Atmospheric flight and VTOL engines has always been the plan since we got atmosphere. Component and ship degradation has always been in the plans. At least for years and years. Physicalized inventory has always been the plan. So we are not actually getting a more complex game in some areas and less complex in others. The net result compared to what we were told we were gonna get is simply a less complex game.
But I thought all of you people were complaining about the game not being playable and new content taking too long even though they been doing it for testing reasons. My other problem is when more complex stuff is entering many complain about how easy it is yet dont realize how hard it was. I am glad they are pushing features back which tells me they are taking more time to develop those areas yet more and more people complain about that. What is "Too casual is many of these people complaining and not giving constructive feedback"
Just make it so we can get into the game. Is that too much to ask? 60Ks, Infinite Loads, Shard Locks and more make it very frustrating. Then when you get in you call the ship and the hangar eats it and you have to put in a claim and wait.
in a few more years it will be quite 'arcadey' because it needs to appeal to the younger masses in order to keep its funding going its already become very diluted over the past few years. Fast travelling is becoming more and more prevalent, the game is becoming more looter shooter and just gameplay systems across the board are getting simplified. I need to move cargo (theres a magic beam for that) I need to heal someone (theres a magic beam for that) i need to mine this rock (theres a magic beam for that) I want to salvage this ship (theres a magic beam for that) I want to repair this pipe (theres a magic beam for that) etc etc
Yes in the future we want exploration, we want new planets, systems, and by hand created bases, cities and places one can name after oneself when explored. CIG your original idea go back to it.❤❤
If anyone still thinks Master Modes is dumbing down the game too much, they don't understand how hard the old flight model actually was. In high tier play it was near impossible to score a kill, and fleet combat was non existant. Much of the gameplay was determined by your ability to properly merge, which out of the millions of players, only about a dozen could actually do. Master modes still has a high skill ceiling. Sure it needs tuning, it punishes pushing unfortunately, but fights are determined by skill.
I mean I'm mostly fine with all the changes i really dint like master modes, but I kinda got used to it what I really dislike is the enemy's have hull armour while we do not. And most annoyingly the stability of 4.01 is outrages you can't do anything without constant game breaking bug and crashes, I recently got locket out of my acc for 3 weeks because I played ground PVP arena commander.....
No. Here's why. Its still a flight sim, its still a skill based game, and those with the skill to pilot a light fighter extremely well, will always have an edge over those that can pilot the same light fighter, moderately well. Even if they use the same equipment, the same missiles, have the same version of the ship, the pilot that has spent more time learning and excelling in their chosen and preferred vessels will be the one that will be the most successful, no matter how the mechanics change. The fact that all light fighters now can reach roughly the same speed ceilings and do roughly similar performance in terms of DPS/volley is not a bad thing, it means that now the pilot that spends more time in the game has a far greater variety of ships they can experiment in and fly, rather than being consigned to a single meta fighter. I don't mind the realism. I really don't mind a lot of it. I don't need to be Spartan John 117, or Commander Shepard in Star Citizen. But I don't want it to be like playing Tarkov, or the latest Metro game where cleaning the gun is necessary to keep parts from degrading too much or it can't even kill the most basic enemies anymore. That hurts, because I don't want to spend so much of my time when I could have just gone to join my friends, running a cleaning task on my gun instead of going out to have fun. The preparation is not a bad aspect. I should be ready, I should have to get my armor set up, sort out my ammunition, fill up my ship with supplies, get everything up to performance standard, and that should be enough, really. If I need to maintain my weapons, I'll just default to using the same 2-4, rather than swapping between the 10-15 that I really like using, because it feels to me like I now have a job to do before I can go play. If that is someone else's preferred playstyle, I totally and completely understand, and I even applaud you for your differences from me. The last thing I want is for my preferences to railroad everyone else's, because I know how niche my playstyle is, and how others want way more to do, and enjoy the things I don't. I just...don't want to be penalized for not taking part in such things if they're integrated, because its not what I'm playing the game for.
Gotta get inventory stuff out of an item kiosk for immersion and realism. Can go to sleep and log off anywhere at any time for immersion and realism??? No, can log off anywhere at any time for ease of access to all player levels. Not sure how you can have such contradictory gameplay in the same game.
No, people that believe so must enjoy being miserable. Should we be pressing a button so our character inhales/exhales with failure to do so being death?
It is absolutely skewing too casual and abandoning a lot of the original intent and vision. It is making compromises in places it should not and attempting to cater to a wide range, alienating the core audience in the process. Master Modes, ammo repooling, tier 3 insurance, armistice zones, scope glint, higher TTKs -- CIG is attempting to make a game for everyone, which is a game for no one. There are thousands of causal based MMOs out there. Attempting to appease the average gamer that whines at the first sight of adversity is a road that leads to becoming another bland arcade MMO completely ruins what I initially signed up for.
Howe about auto-debiting default loadouts? I'm getting sick of having to spend valuable exploding time suiting up and buying things that I need before setting off. Its only going to get worse with engineering. That is some simplification that we could definitely use. And NIGHT VISION! We have that irl already.
You should make your own game. You know so much about game development....you're a pro for sure. I bet you run million dollar companies on the side as well.
This game is so far from casual. You can spend hours just getting prepped to do a single activity. Casual games give you immediate action without any of the preamble that is required in Star Citizen. The sheer level of tedium in Star Citizen will make most casuals flee within a week of playing.
Oh, and the difference between SciFi and Fantasy isn't just the presense of dragons. The point about SciFi is that it doesn't go against things that we know are true. It permits anything that we don't know about, but it never goes against what we do know about. We know that there is a vacuum in space, so a SciFi game could not fill space with air. A fantasy game might let dragons fly by flapping their wings in space, but a SciFi wouldn't. The tractor beam, though improbable, isn't directly impossible; who is to say if we might not build something in the future that amounts to a retractable stick out of some sort of force field? Force fields exist, it is how we keep a 100 million Kelvin plasma in place in our fusion reactor experiments. The main weirdness of the tractor beam is that it negates gravity, but gravity is the least understood and weakest of the four forces of nature. We can't fully exclude the possibility of anti-gravity in the future and the Star Citizen rules of anti-gravity, mainly that it has short range, might very well be true.
All I'm saying is things don't function based on our understanding, so "realism" isn't the goal. I am not excluding the possibility that we do create tractor beams at all. This game does takes liberties, though. And for good reason. It's okay that we have untold G's applied to our bodies to slow down abruptly cause sometimes that just needs to happen.
@@SpaceTomato The game, at least earlier, tried to avoid taking those liberties. The effect of g-forces used to be really carefully simulated, taking into account not only the amount itself but also how long you are exposed to the g-force and in what direction, using real-life research to calibrate it. Now, we are dropping from NAV to SCM at ridiculous forces, but they used to respect reality more and I think many people wish that CIG had continued on that path. I do.
Honestly, people who think MM is arcade simply don't have that much experience with real flight simulators (and yes, it's not a proper _space_ simulator, but I won't go into how that would be even harder). They're pissed because now it's not a twitchy FPS where you can just sidestrafe away. Things have mass. Thrusters can't instantly change your direction (even more so than when they first revamped thrusters). You can't abuse poor server response time and latencies to just glitch your ship around and make yourself virtually impossible to hit. It's far closer to a flight sim than the previous flight system. That's why so many PvPers are pissed; not because it's simpler combat, but because it _WAS_ simpler combat. By slowing thrust down, now it feels like you're in a giant starship, rather than playing some PUBG character that can just strafe around like a ninja with a rifle. Most of my friends (including myself) grew up on bonafide flight simulators like the Falcon series, MS Flight Sim, or War Thunder. And we found ourselves going from very frustrated in space combat, to suddenly feeling perfectly at home in the cockpit when MM launched. Now all our years of skills in flight sims fit right in, and we're excelling in space combat. I think the problem is that genre of gamers is fairly small, and the skills complex enough, it's not the normal go-to for competitive players (or sociopathic bullies). The closest you get these days is something like War Thunder, and not much else. In short, it takes a lot more skill now than your typical kid looking for a quick thrill shooting up other players has patience for. In a world where shallow battle royal and squad FPS games have dominated for over a decade, they were suddenly way out of their league and got pissed off that it wasn't easy anymore. Edit: Trust me, I've played games with real (unbound newtonian), and it's a terrible experience. It quickly becomes impossible to use anything other than realistic things like lasers, kinetic kill vehicles, or particle beams at ranges of dozens or hundreds of kilometers. The whole game would be boiled down to spreadsheets and then clicking a 'fire' button. Even if they'd kept it like it was before MM, they would have had to significantly slow down acceleration factors to plausible levels, and people would have complained ships were too sluggish. If you make them not sluggish, it goes back to being an FPS game in space, not a space combat sim. Keeping it more like an atmospheric flight sim is certainly a compromise, but it's a far better compromise than the other options people keep asking for.
@@SpaceTomato After chatting with some other people on it about why people consider MM 'arcady', I think it's coming from two main sources. But I agree in general, how a game 'feels' is very hard to judge. The main issue is it's based heavily on your experiences in gaming in general, and thus, what it feels most similar to for you. In my example, having played a lot of flight sims, MM feels much more like those than an arcade game, where as the previous flight model felt more like an FPS arcade game in 3 dimensions, with how strong strafing was. Others, who've spent time in other game genres, will probably have a different perspective. The other reason I think people feel MM is arcady, is from the sounds of it in the interview with Yogi, they had to take a step back and some of the more realistic aspects of the flight model, since things like jerk haven't been built back in to the new MM system, but my understanding was, it is planned to come back. Additionally, many ships haven't been balanced yet, so they feel unrealistically responsive, making those feel even more like an arcade than flying a big lumbering starship. In general, how a ship turns and accelerates probably has the largest contribution to what genre the game feels like, and jerk would certainly add another level of realism. Coupled with getting all the ships balanced from a flight performance perspective, it should get a lot better. But the other thing people need to keep in mind is the goal, like it or not, is for it to feel like WWII dogfighting in atmosphere, despite being in space. That's always been the way CR has described how space combat is meant to feel. Things like the Retaliator with tons of gun turrets akin to a B-17, and torpedo bombers giving you this feeling of being a WWII submarine (complete with mines to behave like depth charges, once ships like the Nautilus gets out). That's just the end goal. It's not intended to feel like KSP or a proper newtonian physics model.
I couldn't disagree more. All my friends have gone back to playing other flight games since MM dropped. If MM is so much better, why isn't CIG keeping it? You say the game WAS twitchy, but I don't see that as being the case UNTIL MM.
@@stormycatmink I actually think if they want to lean into them feeling more like WW2 fighters, then the bigger ships should actually steer another direction, and feel more like WW2 boats (but in space obviously.) In which i mean they're not the most nimble things, have wider turning arcs, but also employ some weapons with far greater ranges than the fighters. (with lower traverse for those weapons to match.) Naturally with a much higher traverse rate and shorter range for the platforms on the big ships intended for anti-fighter defense. I also believe S4 would be the perfect weapon size to add a Flak weapon, as it'd be perfect for a hammerhead and it's role, to have some of its guns be flak. It could be easy to balance out said flak weapons by making the magazine dependent on the ship rather than the gun itself, as a flak round would be larger than what one would expect on fighter mounted machine guns or autocannons, so if someone loaded a hornet with a pair of flak guns, it'd tax it by not being able to store much ammo for them at all anyway. Such area denial would be important for larger ships to be able to exert some control over the engagement versus much smaller craft.
@ You probably missed the part about why most people don't like it: Because it doesn't play like most other games. So your friends probably left for those games they like. This is designed to be like games from the 90s, not the 2010s. You also didn't read about the changes to MM. The thing that's going away is having discrete modes. Now you can configure each as you like.. you can make the same modes if you wanted, but you will now have the flexibility to not to. But the flight model, slower speeds and handling is all staying. So no, MM isn't going away, it just lets you configure the modes.
If this is what you call "becoming too casual" then the full release of the game will make my job look like less work... and if that's the case then I better get paid for playing 1.0 and beyond.
I dont see flight and master modes changes that bad, it have slow down the pace of dogfighting (so no more full speed ramming combats ) and the feeling its quite good . Im missing some tools to reach scape speeds without getting into QT mode , An short time ultra boost maybe . But so far soo good , I dont see it as a casual direction change, it is a change to something were not working as they intended, Chris have always said he want that movie spacedogfight style , not something ultra realistics as The Expanse have for example . Master modes fits that vision for me , combat before was quite fustrating and not controlable , just people booosting full speed hoping to get a quick kill by hit and run , and that was the only tactic to fight back , now you can still do run and hit but you will have to be really skilled to change between modes in the precise moment and risking way more due to shield off during QT. I think its making things harder not casual.
I say no. In fact I hope they simplify the control scheme of ships and also the way you interact with controls and objects in the environment because it's honestly not fun in the current implementation.
Arcade? Casual? This? yeahhh...no. Not even close. I LOVE and i mean LOVE Elite: Dangerous. That game is more arcade and casual than this is. I prefer this in a lot of ways to elite for that reason. Less easy. lol. But hey, just another opinion.
Still complex enough for me and damn if they dont dumb it down a bit they are gonna be here all century! Let them simplify it for 1.0 Then push for more complexity.
Ive repeated myself over and over on SC issues but I never get use to my ships speed is slowed my landing gear is lowered. Not a gripe, but an effort to expose bad design.
Too many systems to cope with does make playing more of something for people who attained a PhD in it. Which in turn gives a push to further simplification and toning down. I don't need perfect simulation, immersion just requires keeping things believable. And hopefully intuitive. I also think that some of the difficulties are due to bad dev and most certainly design decisions. Overall the SC UI is in a very bad state. It's pretty terrible. Having found the advanced HUD solves some things. With better UI a lot of difficulty goes away.
Welp, that bit about the weapons off due to master modes is no longer true! THIS VIDEO WAS ORIGINALLY RELEASED IN Q3 2024.
CR's main word for SC has always been "immersive" not "realistic"
And sims are about internal consistency, not necessarily realism.
Good point
It was supposed to be an updated mp privateer and a new wing commander campaign - thats what sq42 was supposed to be. Proper context needs those to be what was thought of as immersive.
Tuning the inventory and changing fuses was not on the cards, more along that you'd save by going or clicking on a bed.
But they started with a fps engine.
But realism is required for immersion.
Believable realism is immersive.
I would say the main issue, at least for me, is that CIG seem to be choosing the wrong things to make sim-like, and the wrong things to be arcady. I could enjoy a lengthy prep time, lots of maintenance on my ship and detailed survival mechanics if the flight model and fps combat design was as sim-like as possible.
Spending lots of time stocking up on items, keeping my character fed, watered, washed, keeping my ship maintained only to be met with the flight model from Starfield and some FPS combat that makes CoD feel like a milsim is just not something I am interested in. There is no coherent vision for the game at the moment and no matter what side of the sim/arcade spectrum you sit on there is enough here to annoy you.
For me it feels cig dosnt even know what they do. The realism stops Just with the Star systems. Just Take a Look at Pyro, Pyro 1 has Temperaturen around 200 degree, at the Same time monox with nearls the Same distance to the sun has -70 degree, Same as Terminus. And everywhere npcs running around in Shirts and you have Open Houses. Thats only one example. Nothing about Pyro makes Sense. Its a complete immersion breaker for me and since then im not interested at all to Login anymore
what makes FPS not realistic? crossaim? for me that makes sense that in future helmet hubs and weapon accesories will have a help to the shooter . I mean taking in consideration Lore its futuristic CiG its keeping stuff quite nerf. I can imagine autoguide bullets , laserbeams that obliterate mass , you can go crazy but instead they keeping and down to earth perspective and weapons are not overpowerfull.
Combat feels realistic and not really fast , as Cod for example . Animations are spot on when they are not laggy adding another layer of realism I dont see since Perfect Dark 64. NPC reaction to leg shots or things like that are really good . Armor feels good too not to strongh not to weak , meds also works fine not giving a huge advantage,
The only thing I can see people can see as arcade its to have a HUD and a minimap , and to be fair considering what thecnologies could we have in future I dont see those features unrealistic.
@luampastudio62 For me, the hit markers, an especially the kill markers, take away a lot of the tactics. Combined with a very long time to kill and you end up with a run and gun shooter where firing in roughly the right direction and using the hit markers to sight in is the most effective way to engage targets. Matter of preference of course, but it certainly doesn't favour a slow and tactical approach.
@@texnorthman I agree with the hit markers and kill feedback, they should at least have the option to turn that off, but the time to kill is high if you are in heavy armor, unarmored is almost instant kill, the bunker NPCs that are using just gang clothing are droped pretty quick like one shot to the head or two or tree somewhere else, it also depends on the weapon you're using so SMGs will not be so strong against heavy, this is no Starfield shooting, or even Fallout 76 shooting, i mean, even in Stalker which has a pretty good system, when you are in exoskeleton heavy armor, you last a pretty good time taking shots granted, you will be a in a pretty bad shape after, so it's not like i feel comfortable taking shots in SC, and even NPCs can kill you if you're not in some sort of cover, i play in light armor due to it being pretty cheap and functional and have to be mindful of that when taking on bunkers, just being careful and using good cover and tactics has helped me rarely die in these missions, although some times it does get pretty close when NPCs where responsive and push in a team, stealth helps a lot avoiding that of course.
100% agree. I say this all the time: CIG has a game design problem.
And that's way more worrying than the bugs/tech issues because bugs & tech issues is guaranteed to *eventually* get resolved but game design issues are *not* guaranteed to eventually get resolved.
There's so many things that CIG can very easily do right now that can add so much to the game & create/improve lots of gameplay, but they're just not seeing it somehow. Meanwhile the community is so short-sighted & emotional that all they do is complain about bugs or other pointless things & sometimes even childish things(like crying about the fact that they have to interact with other people in an MMO).
6:11
In regards to bed logging. They never actually explicitly said that logging out in your bed was the only way to log out (and respawn in the same place). What they said was that logging out in your bed would despawn the ship/character so that you don't get griefed while not playing; this feature still makes sense in todays game.
bed logging is still possible even in the most recent patches of the game too. it hasn't been removed.
@@sethstewart6297 In some ships it has been broken for several versions.
They tied a stretch goal to the idea of being a "long haul" explorer and logging out in your ship. You can look it up, $14 million. Technically it'll still be true, but the "hibernation mode" they stated in that stretch goal I think laid out a different understanding for how logging on and off would work.
And what does happen if I logg out on my ship when it have no bed?
@@SpaceTomatoyou can read save and resume as anything you want. Being teleported back home because you disconnected is immersion breaking anyway and silly if your cup in the forest persists for 5 years in that spot.
Arcadey isn't the word id use for the wheel selection, and new loot screens.
Clunky, is the word i would use.
I get that the wheel select makes gamepads easier to navigate, but they just don't work well with a Mouse and KB.
While some may disagree, I personally feel that you should use a system which works best with the HID being used.
E.g. wheels when using controller, and menus for mouse and KB.
If you design arround one and not the other, all you do is ruin the experience for the audience who perfers to use the one you didn't design arround.
This is so accurate
I casually fall through my hangar floor regularly.
I’m fine with the game becoming multifaceted, I even want that. I just don’t agree when it starts to feel like a game driven off ship sales has less development for ship focused activities than it does for FPS activities.
We have contested zones in Pyro and the mention of the instanced FPS zones in area 18, but nothing on the radar involving ship combat, while combat focused ships make up the majority of ships on the store.
i think as SC grows more complex, the intactions need to become more streamlined and simplified to counter how obtuse the entire SC experience is. So I'm all for quality of life improvements that make interactions less tedious.
@@Armory508 You think it's getting *more* complex?
I totally agree with your statement, I just feel they are dumbing down the gameplay and leaning into the obtuse interactions.
Agreed
Anyone who thinks Star Citizen is too casual, has never played a casual game.
What? Sounds like a truism that isn’t true haha
I surely wouldn't call it a simulator, but I doubt a proper casual game has tedious time sinks.
I get what you mean, but I can't agree with your way of saying it
Any game where you can lose everything you’ve earned to a death in bad way in a bad place to another player… or a bug… or a mistake, is not casual.
The topic was regarding 1.0. They're going to be going for the typical easy to jump into difficult to master
The moment the community and devs start saying "we have to appeal to a wide range," it looses it's dedicated playerbase who would stay for the long haul.
No. You have to build a game for the players who are going to stick with you.
as long as that solely dedicated can't pay for the entire development time for all of eternity, this is a dumb idea
@@AnymMusic not really getting your point as it had nothing to do with Rushing's comment, SC, or CIG. CIGs original community took them to a fantastic financial footing. mainstream games that follow the pack and whatever hot fad is popular may make a big initial hit, but have no staying power. they fade fast. derivative games that copy other successful games' mechanics or looks or feel are simply pathetic knockoffs that seldom make back their initial cost of production. popular games, usually branded as "niche", have a habit of lasting for years, if not decades. turning a unique game like SC into an expensive derivative of EVE Online is CIG cashing out. the only dumb idea is believing it's anything else...
The lower speed limit still doesn't make turrets useful. Turrets traverse too slowly still.
yes i agree so hard i always feel like im dragging along instead of being able to track anyone
They really gotta re-tool all the turret traversals by size/mounting type. To make them make sense. Tbh I also still want to see larger guns have longer range. like a s3 has a 2.8km range, but s4 would have like 3.8km or so. S7 would probably be around 7km.
Likewise, even torpedoes/missiles I feel like should have an acceleration curve, like over a certain distance they reach a max velocity, but their ability to maneuver lessens as they accelerate, and understanding those distances could allow more tactical play from missile users, as higher velocities may allow those missiles to avoid some hits from PDCs (which maybe should be dulled in their accuracy slightly.)
they all slow, even AA turrets at bunkers..even a novice pilot can out pace just by strafing
@@thatdirtyninja5829 That's less about turret travers and more about bullet velocity and angular acceleration.
They are more useful than before, is the point. Still work to be done on them like speeding up tracking for sure, but anybody who used turrets before 3.16 probably gets where I'm coming from.
Instead of worrying about what they say we need to worry about what they are doing. They can’t even get us a game that doesn’t lock players in servers. Most of these things like removing inventory’s are very small changes no matter how many times you tell yourself they change the game in a big way. It’s stuff we should have had years ago. Living off of what “Chris said” doesn’t seem to get us very far.
Once the game is finished and released, it would be cool if anybody buying it after release would start with no ships, this would fill the verse with crew working to get their first ship.
I've long maintained a great way to get more players in would be to release a $10 "starter" package, where you just get the ability to play. Add some missions where you have to do package deliveries in starter cities, or clean up trash laying around, or even go out and repair little bits around the city with a salvage gun. A P-52 and an Aurora ES are both under 500k AUEC, and you wouldn't be limited in going places and doing other stuff - you'd just need to hitch a ride or crew up with someone.
Free slave labor for us :D
hell, why not now? i would never ask any of my friends to subject themselves to the buggy state the game is in for 45$, but for 10$ i could use a gunner, hell, id pay for it myself. It would mean that when a random new player with no ship logs in and needs quick cash, and my Scorpius needs a gunner for some HRTs, we both get something very valuable out of working together that neither of us would get otherwise. Hell, he can fly it sometimes too.
Exactly. CIG has to be mindful abput the complexity of each game system so that the total experience is manageable and enjoyable. The complexity of each system compounds in different contexts.
It's too much PvP. Rather than having a game that works for both types of players they are confusing high-risk high reward with PvP. A single-player button like ED has would be nice. This would also let them balance the game for PvP rather than putting effort into trying to get griefers not to grief.
Or a passive mode like GTA V online. You know when you want to be left alone instead of being forced into providing someone else's fun at the cost of your time and your fun.
This but without breaking immersion : just let people go wherever they want and stop funneling them into each others faces.
Don't have a limited mission pool where everybody is doing the same mission fighting over the same tiny bone all the time.
Don't limit quantum jumps to nav points only.
Don't make scanners too powerful at range. It should not be feasible for a single person to scan an entire planet for settlements or players.
This gives players the option to choose missions that sound like they will end up in conflict or not. Like some involve rapid opportunities and you'll end up with multiple opportunists. And others are just business as usual or plain own initiative that nobody knows about, you won't run into others unless you don't look at your own scanners and are unlucky.
In many ways CIG gameifies the wrong things while making Putting too much realistic friction on things that shouldn't have it. Sometimes I get the impression the devs have never actually played a game before in their lives! 😆
CIG removed ship inventory WAAAAYYYY too early, before the replacement systems (like Gear Lockers) were even in the bloody game yet, once again putting the cart so far ahead of the horse you'll need mile-long reins. Most ship STILL don't even have internal storage lockers, there's NO WAY to transfer items from a box to the lockers even if they have them. You can't transfer between boxes, the whole damn system is SEVERELY lacking.
We ***NEED*** the ability to transfer items DIRECTLY from the Item Bank to the ship storage locker from the FPS Storage Bank.
There's also the observation that the replacment is just plain bad while also not being immersive. Dragging a box around with us because they don't want to gameify the inventory is absurd because it pulls people out of the experience. By adding that inconvenience fractures the experience.
@@RN1441 Agreed. I'm all for "immersion", but there needs to be a point where it's interfering with the 'fun' of the gameplay. Jared used to say something along the lines of 'create in ultimate realism then dial back to fun.
Some things should be physicalized. But personal inventory should NOT be one of them.
Times like this make it clear to me that the CIG devs/leaders don't actually PLAY the game the way we do. If they did, they'd be designing it differently. I think the only thing the devs do is PVP ship-to-ship combat. That's where they keep focusing all their time/energy. That's the only thing you hear them talking about. We NEVER hear them talking about how much fun they had dragging around a 2scu box to loot the bunkers they did that day. Or how much they enjoyed spending 2 hours getting spare armor/weapons into their Carrack for a multicrew set of FPS missions. We never hear about it because they NEVER DO IT.
@@Zeoran Yeah, they gotta work on deepening (and adding) the fun parts (Combat, crafting, hauling, engineering, flight), and lightening the tedious parts (Inventory management, food and drink, prep work, long distance travel, etc.)
I'm not sure how much choice they had when they want to make sure physicalized cargo works with the server meshed system. Would have been really nice to have lockers before that, for sure, though.
@@SpaceTomato We're still using the old inventory system, we just interface with it through the FPS Banks now. So the old system still exists & works. They could have kept the ship internal inventory. And the game still thinks it exists too. If you die while onboard your ship, the armor your wearing will be transported to the ships internal inventory, you just don't have the ability to access it anymore.
But this is the crap I'm talking about. They're putting the cart SOOO far in front of the horse here. Most ships don't even have storage lockers yet, the ones that do don't work right and there's no way to even get crap into them in the first place since we can't open more than one container at a time, which is another MAJOR oversight on CIG's part.
If they can't put all the systems into the game required for a particular feature at the same time, that's fine, I get it. But then you don't remove/destroy/eliminate the existing system that was working fine, leaving players screwed in the meantime while you take months-years to get shit working properly again.
Speed limits and "master modes" are nothing but admittance of bad game design up until here.
Allowing 1000+ kilometers per second of "realspace" movement in an online game was a mistake to start with. The only travel at/above those speeds should have been "quantum boost"/quantum travel.
Tracking 100s of players and 1000s/10s of 1000s of objects moving at 1000km/s is not exactly something servers are known for doing well.
Not to mention that combat at 1000+ m/s only gives seconds of interaction.
It also completely invalidates fleet combat. In order for fleet combat to work with those systems, you would need those larger ships to be able to engage at long distances.
@@Splincira server really doesn't care about the little number in the velocity vector.
@@jeffrbakefleet combat is in the word, it's for boats. You'll never see jet fighters hover face to face in line of sight of the enemy getting into position like the fighters in the cinematics.
@@StarryeyedStarCitizen right. It's a weird combination of WWII style combat (no long range fighting), but futuristic speeds. Doesn't mix well, which is what MM attempts to address.
Either way, until ship damage is physically realized, no sense in making big changes.
Really enjoying the thought behind the segments, comparisons and considerations of the systems that CIG have put in, are planning and how they work together. You're really drawing the web of "everything that SC is" together to a few red threads in a way very few manage to draw and make sense of. It's well done and always a pleasure to see another video drop. You're also dropping in a rich slew of b-roll, don't tire yourself out as these are a lot of cuts in succession and a lot of the same effect is achieved with fewer while not overwhelming the viewer in moments you mention specific points while showing them. Keep it up dude
tbh the ammopacking is the best feature by far. how often did i have 10 - 20 half empty magazins flying around in my inventory. i love that. regarding bed logging. the point where people say it makes it too easy just to log out from everywhere. when you are on a long haul ( when it become a thing) you still have to use your bed to log out if you want to take a break. so there are some pros and cons to the changes. i dont like the artificial speedlimit but i understand why its in. and no one says thats something that stays in the game. aerodynamics is something that is much more needed than speedlimits.
Yeah I've REALLY enjoyed that
10:31 This my most “Wishing/Want” for the game is bringing a system to some ships the ability to “Stow/Deploy” hard-points for weapons or utilities. I very much enjoyed how E.D. made this simple concept of a design speak volumes on your intensions.
I don’t have the time or desire to post in spectrum, but if anyone capable and wants to post this comment on my behalf you have my permission to please do so. I hope it could find some influence within the community to gain traction with the development team to be a new gold ship standard or even simpler of just being standard of a new ship model or a redesign to a few specific archetype of ship variants as long as it does’t cause deliverables to be delayed or over budget.
Your Average Citizen,
Mahalo, 🤙🏾
Actually I would have been very happy with a freelancer online. That's kind of what I thought we were getting when I 1st pledged in 2013. And that game probably could have been out 5 years ago!
I am fairly new to SC, but I've been in gaming likely longer than a lot of you have been alive. I LOVE SC, I wish I found it 10 years ago. I love every aspect about it, when it works. I feel some of the things they are changing/adding are things that are needed to get and keep the most players they can in the game. After all, they are a company, their ultimate goal will be to release the game and still make money on it after. Logging in and out was one of the first things I noticed about SC and how frustrating it was to have to continually restart any extended exploration I wanted to do from a hab, instead of where I left off. To me, THIS is a welcome and needed change. An easy way to keep bed logging as a viable option would be to add a benefit to it. Maybe a health buff when you wake up for X amount of time, either way, bed logging MUST work in EVERY ship....
As for the menu's an UI... Yeah, I kinda find myself on the side of, ''needs re-doing/updating''. Overall I like where the game is going and, based on the most recent CitCon, I like what they have planned and feel that ''overall'' it will really flesh out SC as a whole game and experience, which, I feel is what most people will be looking for.
completely agree with the points made. i am still new to Star Citizen but the lack of a proper tutorial with the complex controls can feel overwhelming at times. also i dont mind having a gamepad for fps combat and joysticks for flight controls, i think each adds its own flavor to the game. what may be a solution to some for the crosshairs maybe add customization options for the helmets outside of the options menus that way you could directly control what the hud displays and how it looks
I always find it interesting that some think the game is getting too arcady while others say it's getting to complex
or some that say it doesn't work at all
It's because the games systems are so inconsistent how they are handled. Needing to walk every piece of my gear into a ship to store it is very realistic. Pulling 50G's because I turned off the magic speed drive that was added so new players don't crash is very arcade like. Neither of which flow well.
@@russellburns205 it's all give and take. The logic behind most of the design choices CIG has made when balancing player expectation vs gameplay reality seems mostly consistent in my eyes.
Correction it's not physicilized when you take off your helmet it turns into a box.
I like your parameters for a sim and I think it’s a perspective that many lack. It doesn’t need to one for one match the world we live in. Just needs to be consistent in the world it’s representing.
SC being realistic is fine, however it's a whole different matter when even the most basic tasks become tedious chores. I brought a lot of friends on the game during the last free flight, and they all stopped playing after a week. The number 1 reason, beside the pisspoor performances (not getting 45fps even with high end setups), was because of how everything in the game took so much time to do, often being unnecessary long all for the sake of 'realism'.
It sure is immersive to spawn in your quarter, walk through the city, go to the train station, take the train to the spacesport, and then leave the atmosphere in your ship... But it's also super long. It's an amazing experience the first time (if it doesn't lag), but it soon become boring. I can understand new players leaving the game when they take half an hour just to leave their home planet. The new physical cargo made it even worse since now we have to load/unload our cargo by hand, and we don't have any NPC to help us.
This is my issue as well. When I have dedicated hours to actually mine or salvage, half that time is reloading my game after a random disconnect and having to tool up and get back to where I was.
Excellent video. I've been a continuing backer for 8 years because Star Citizen is the only space based multiplayer sandbox game that gives me even a small feeling of living in space. I don't back because of a "vision" of future gameplay, but because I enjoy the game now.
SC will never see a 1.0 release. It will never make back a fraction of the investment sunk into it.
But at least they'll have some code to sell when they inevitably run out of other people's money.
I want a Sons of the Forest like inventoy for Star Citizen, it is so far the best inventory implementation !
Oh boy that's intense!
I don't think they ever said that bed logging was the intended way to access and leave the game. It was for a long time just the mechanism they had implemented because persistence wasn't a thing. I've always assumed that we would be eventually able to log in and out where we left off...but only once persistence was in.
I want some of the "SIMmey" parts of ship controls back, but im actually quite happy with the rest how the game is getting into shape.
They only think that because it's true
man if there was like a mothership for the vulture to dock to and refine/store more refined salvage that would be so freaking amazing!
I was sold the "best damn space sim ever". Now, I feel like they're going for the "best damn planet sim ever".
NewCIG and 1.0 sells us more and more time planetside and doing things on planets, landing zones, player bases and stations. It's all spending less time in actual space in your jpg ship except going from landing-point A to landing-point B.
What happened to the idea of loading up and disappearing into deep space? That was the whole idea of ships with living quarters, wasn't it? I don't want to hang out in atmo 99% of the time!
Keenan, you have a finely crafted style of delivering the just right amount of these informative videos that inspires a balance of optimism and progressive criticism promoting deeper understanding and clear vision of game development to be digested by anyone with an open mind. What makes this the best to me is that you have stated many times over you are not a game developer but a game player enthusiast. This beautifully structured of a well thought out finely written scripts are unmatched especially when the timings of video clips that are perfectly lined up with precision to emphasize the highlights of the script for the video.
Between other content creators within the SC community,
like, DigThat32, TheAstro Pub, Sodium Michael, Morphologis just to name my top few. I see the hard work put in by you & your wife while being in a challenging live streaming timezone(s) of both Turkey and California, (trust me I know that one all to well) I see the value hard work your team puts in your videos, my mind keep asking the same question every year, “Why doesn’t this youtube channel have such a slow growth rate respected to the piers I listed?”
besides the set back from that disastrous flood you guys experienced awhile back that cause all kinds of strife. I’m sending prayers and wishes for the universe to help make 2025 the year @SpaceTomato to break through the 100k mark of RUclips subscribers!
o7 Safe travels & Godspeed my friend on all of your future endeavors!
Well, it's been 12 years and the number of supporters have grown, the amount of $$$ poured in has grown, so has users expectations. CIG will be crazy not to rebalance.
The key is finding the sweet spot and/or given options that can persist across the verse and cater to different playstyles. I don't enjoy the long commute to spaceport but I love to customise and arm my ships for the mission.
I also enjoy quality of life enhancements like fast looting but dumb down the flight model too much and I wouldn't be able to pull off fancy maneuvers on my fancy sticks.
As for the FPS (ground) portions, as long as it's like Mass Effect Andromeda, SC will be in good shape.
I have not gone to the forum in years...
This year, I'm upgrading my rig to 9950X3D. Already have the 7900XTX, so I think it's time to really get into SC in anticipation of SQ42.
I do not want to be able to log in and out anywhere I like the idea of being very limited to leaving and entering the game
You did a great job of highlighting one of the problems with Star Citizen. I heard someone else say that the first 10 years of "development" was all spit-balling: they didn't have a clear vision of the destination. I 100% agree with that. Now, they have to have many of the systems finalized and it is schizophrenic: it is inconsistent in its approach and that is a turn-off to both sides of the gameplay spectrum.
Honestly good, that means that more players will see this, play through it and get hooked on the game
I ok with most changes the Bed log IMO should stay but they could also put a bed / chair in the hanger so you can log off in there too.
MM I just think the flight is too slow 400- 500 feels better for a fast fighter with out boost boost should give you only a little more top end speed but to get to the speed faster. ( IMO ) the FPS changes are fine. looting should be easier if you have a back pack or a box, to make it fun. we all like good loot LOL .
we have time to disable now so when we getting repair ? which is needed.
also internet on the mobiglass why can we not search for a say a set of armour or ship component to find out where to buy it ? and or purchase it and get it delivered to your home base / station . this would / could open a mission to a player or NPC which ever take the mission in time . and is delivered in X days depends on distance and system they are in.
I dream of a good game . I hope some of it works and in a stable condition
I'm thinking about trying it out. How hard is it to fly with a keyboard and mouse?
It's doable. You steer the ship using your mouse and have a key binding for accelerate / decelerate.
My Starting Gear was KB&M with a game pad ... I played a few years with only those until I bought my sticks... 🎮
A new feature they should add is called Stability. Also I would liked to see a video about how long it took to make other large games. I know this game is very different, but it might help to put things in perspective. I just can't understand why NPC are standing on tables and why elevators don't work.
My previous video talks all about the drive to stability they are trying for! For the video idea, I'm not a game dev and can't comment on other games. I do know that NPCs generally stoof on chairs because of the way they were loaded in and out of the game as assets. They would be de-loaded undergoing an animation, and when loaded back in the system was not suited to reset those animations in coordination with the way the game engine worked. That's why we're seeing less NPCs doing that now, they were able to refactor that part of the engine.
The elevators don't work for similar reasons. They are built on a logistics system that was made for Cryengine, smaller games. The team is currently rewriting that system to work with the backend they built (server meshing), which is why we are currently waiting for the transit refactor.
Feel free to swing by the streams with more questions! Always happy to answer them!
0:23 WAIT WHAT?!! Logging in and logging out? Im assuming logging out where ever you are and log back in to be in the same exact place where you logged out?
That's what they said, yes.
A game like this needs to appeal to most people with how many roles there will be. Since it doesn't focus on one aspect like ship flying, it's now balancing out to make everything viable. One of the changes that backs this idea is the economy changes cause bounty hunting/smuggling was the most profitable till the change. Now it's more equal.
Sims can be too aggravating at times which can drastically drop player numbers. To being too arcade like which can make things too repetitive and boring.
One thing I don't get why people are so against is gamepad use. It should have the option to use gamepads cause it makes the game more accessible to people with physical disabilities. It also opens it to HOTAS support. Making the game more accessible is a positive so it gives players choices on how to play.
Game development is all about balance to everything in your game has purpose. One role to the next if one role is too powerful the others the other roles have no purpose.
Mastermodes I find weird cause we have power management we should just be able to use the power management terminal. I would like to have my shields on while I warp. I do think you shouldn't have your warp function on while having guns and shields. It should be guns OR shields if you have warp on. To balance a bit.
Last point as if now the game just needs to be polished more before adding anything new, I like were it is now and the current direction it pretty balanced gameplay wise and the basic components are there. I'd like them to refine what they have now and build upon it.
"the game is not going to be for everyone" Be nice if marketing understood that....
Lol yeah
I DO love the rapid advances recently. I accept the trainwrecks... however I also take breaks to minimize frustration. Lol😂
I love the thumbnail it's so retro brings me back😂
I think the vision was always leaning more towards arcade.
The complexity seems to have originated in the stretchgoals which then in turn required more mechanics
For me three things need to be rectified.
1. Beam citizen. The hand held tractor range is ridiculously OP, looks stupid and makes things comical.
2. X markers when shooting. This isn't COD, removes tension and tactics when in PVP FPS.
3. Hovering. This seems like it's being looked at, but evrything hovering mames VTOL pointless. It kills skill in atmo flying, it should be less forgiving and need practice / skill. As it is now, Arcade mode.
As long as its fun but innovative and immersive. I dont mind a bit more casual gameplay because a game of this scale needs more players to feel more alive. If we limit the playerbase to a niche, then thats all we're going to get out of a community, is a niche. And Id rather have a broad community than a niche one because the niche ones tend to critique the smallest details when the broader ones don't care as long as it is fun.
Being a sim means simulating everything we know about in physics and the real world realistically. The space for imagination are the things we don't know about. Space is a vacuum. We know because we have been there and looked. This has to stay, because we know for sure. There are no tractor beams in real life, but who is to say there couldn't be? This is left to imagination, because we don't know. Just being a consistent system isn't a sim. Candy Crush is consistent, things have a way they work and they always work that way, but it isn't a sim. Elder Scrolls Online has a consistent set of rules, things work in specific ways, but that doesn't mean it is a sim.
such a well thought out and concise roadmap review in contrast to the majority of single minded reviews floating around. appreciate your insight
Idk what CIG is doing, but lately they got me reinstalling Elite and man has it been chill; scratching an itch that seems to be missing from SC.
I find weird how SC feels both too realistic and too arcadey at the same time.
I like some of the realistic aspects of it... but the stuff like dead of a spaceman for instance not so much, I'd prefer if there was a "hardcore mode" or other kind of death penalties.
Stuff like bed logging could be easily solved by allowing you to log anywhere but if you do it in bed, you get some buff rewards when you return like health buff, and whatnot (perhaps the opposite where you get debuffed for not logging into a bed, but I think the prospect of a reward is better than a punishment in general).
I liked flying before master modes, and I like the physicality of having to go places to do things, but I do not like how restrictive the inventory feels right now.
I think the problem is that we all want different things but it is impossible to make 100 of game design choices that satisfies everyone.
I cannot wait for Physicalized Damage and Armour in the game so that larger ships can start shrugging off small fighter weapons.
Problem is all the things you listed as "getting more complex" are not expansions. Those things have always been on the drawing board. Control surfaces is not a new expanded idea. Atmospheric flight and VTOL engines has always been the plan since we got atmosphere. Component and ship degradation has always been in the plans. At least for years and years. Physicalized inventory has always been the plan. So we are not actually getting a more complex game in some areas and less complex in others. The net result compared to what we were told we were gonna get is simply a less complex game.
But I thought all of you people were complaining about the game not being playable and new content taking too long even though they been doing it for testing reasons. My other problem is when more complex stuff is entering many complain about how easy it is yet dont realize how hard it was. I am glad they are pushing features back which tells me they are taking more time to develop those areas yet more and more people complain about that. What is "Too casual is many of these people complaining and not giving constructive feedback"
Just make it so we can get into the game. Is that too much to ask? 60Ks, Infinite Loads, Shard Locks and more make it very frustrating. Then when you get in you call the ship and the hangar eats it and you have to put in a claim and wait.
in a few more years it will be quite 'arcadey' because it needs to appeal to the younger masses in order to keep its funding going
its already become very diluted over the past few years. Fast travelling is becoming more and more prevalent, the game is becoming more looter shooter and just gameplay systems across the board are getting simplified. I need to move cargo (theres a magic beam for that) I need to heal someone (theres a magic beam for that) i need to mine this rock (theres a magic beam for that) I want to salvage this ship (theres a magic beam for that) I want to repair this pipe (theres a magic beam for that) etc etc
Yes in the future we want exploration, we want new planets, systems, and by hand created bases, cities and places one can name after oneself when explored. CIG your original idea go back to it.❤❤
Maybe, maybe, maybe if/when this game comes out, I'll give it a chance. I'm still unconvinced.
If anyone still thinks Master Modes is dumbing down the game too much, they don't understand how hard the old flight model actually was. In high tier play it was near impossible to score a kill, and fleet combat was non existant. Much of the gameplay was determined by your ability to properly merge, which out of the millions of players, only about a dozen could actually do.
Master modes still has a high skill ceiling. Sure it needs tuning, it punishes pushing unfortunately, but fights are determined by skill.
I mean I'm mostly fine with all the changes i really dint like master modes, but I kinda got used to it what I really dislike is the enemy's have hull armour while we do not. And most annoyingly the stability of 4.01 is outrages you can't do anything without constant game breaking bug and crashes, I recently got locket out of my acc for 3 weeks because I played ground PVP arena commander.....
No.
Here's why.
Its still a flight sim, its still a skill based game, and those with the skill to pilot a light fighter extremely well, will always have an edge over those that can pilot the same light fighter, moderately well. Even if they use the same equipment, the same missiles, have the same version of the ship, the pilot that has spent more time learning and excelling in their chosen and preferred vessels will be the one that will be the most successful, no matter how the mechanics change. The fact that all light fighters now can reach roughly the same speed ceilings and do roughly similar performance in terms of DPS/volley is not a bad thing, it means that now the pilot that spends more time in the game has a far greater variety of ships they can experiment in and fly, rather than being consigned to a single meta fighter.
I don't mind the realism. I really don't mind a lot of it. I don't need to be Spartan John 117, or Commander Shepard in Star Citizen. But I don't want it to be like playing Tarkov, or the latest Metro game where cleaning the gun is necessary to keep parts from degrading too much or it can't even kill the most basic enemies anymore. That hurts, because I don't want to spend so much of my time when I could have just gone to join my friends, running a cleaning task on my gun instead of going out to have fun. The preparation is not a bad aspect. I should be ready, I should have to get my armor set up, sort out my ammunition, fill up my ship with supplies, get everything up to performance standard, and that should be enough, really. If I need to maintain my weapons, I'll just default to using the same 2-4, rather than swapping between the 10-15 that I really like using, because it feels to me like I now have a job to do before I can go play.
If that is someone else's preferred playstyle, I totally and completely understand, and I even applaud you for your differences from me. The last thing I want is for my preferences to railroad everyone else's, because I know how niche my playstyle is, and how others want way more to do, and enjoy the things I don't. I just...don't want to be penalized for not taking part in such things if they're integrated, because its not what I'm playing the game for.
No casual is going to put up with the bullshit that is CIG and the colossal failure to deliver anything playable.
I play SC to escape reality, not to bring the stresses of real life into it. Immersion does not mean 1:1, it means efficiency.
Gotta get inventory stuff out of an item kiosk for immersion and realism. Can go to sleep and log off anywhere at any time for immersion and realism??? No, can log off anywhere at any time for ease of access to all player levels. Not sure how you can have such contradictory gameplay in the same game.
No, people that believe so must enjoy being miserable. Should we be pressing a button so our character inhales/exhales with failure to do so being death?
I like that you can log on where ever you log off
Majority of the missions dont work. Yes definitely for the casual player.
I would like to see beds as log in points for friends the amount that can log into a friends ship limited by number of beds
It is absolutely skewing too casual and abandoning a lot of the original intent and vision.
It is making compromises in places it should not and attempting to cater to a wide range, alienating the core audience in the process. Master Modes, ammo repooling, tier 3 insurance, armistice zones, scope glint, higher TTKs -- CIG is attempting to make a game for everyone, which is a game for no one. There are thousands of causal based MMOs out there. Attempting to appease the average gamer that whines at the first sight of adversity is a road that leads to becoming another bland arcade MMO completely ruins what I initially signed up for.
There's nothing casual about dealing with the bugs in SC. You're either in, or you're out.
Ironic the thumb nail shows Wing Commander, which was never known as a hardcore sim.
I just don't want it to go from earning money to buy ships going from weeks / months to taking YEARS.
The players pledging for ships are getting old and think moving boxes and shooting basic beams at rocks is hardcore and skillful.
Being able to log anywhere takes away from the game massively IMO and im a very casual and newish player.
Howe about auto-debiting default loadouts? I'm getting sick of having to spend valuable exploding time suiting up and buying things that I need before setting off. Its only going to get worse with engineering. That is some simplification that we could definitely use. And NIGHT VISION! We have that irl already.
Worst problem of Star Citizen is people addicted to Copium. It is same like watching junkies defend their dealer.
You should make your own game. You know so much about game development....you're a pro for sure. I bet you run million dollar companies on the side as well.
This game is so far from casual. You can spend hours just getting prepped to do a single activity. Casual games give you immediate action without any of the preamble that is required in Star Citizen. The sheer level of tedium in Star Citizen will make most casuals flee within a week of playing.
Oh, and the difference between SciFi and Fantasy isn't just the presense of dragons. The point about SciFi is that it doesn't go against things that we know are true. It permits anything that we don't know about, but it never goes against what we do know about. We know that there is a vacuum in space, so a SciFi game could not fill space with air. A fantasy game might let dragons fly by flapping their wings in space, but a SciFi wouldn't.
The tractor beam, though improbable, isn't directly impossible; who is to say if we might not build something in the future that amounts to a retractable stick out of some sort of force field? Force fields exist, it is how we keep a 100 million Kelvin plasma in place in our fusion reactor experiments. The main weirdness of the tractor beam is that it negates gravity, but gravity is the least understood and weakest of the four forces of nature. We can't fully exclude the possibility of anti-gravity in the future and the Star Citizen rules of anti-gravity, mainly that it has short range, might very well be true.
All I'm saying is things don't function based on our understanding, so "realism" isn't the goal. I am not excluding the possibility that we do create tractor beams at all.
This game does takes liberties, though. And for good reason. It's okay that we have untold G's applied to our bodies to slow down abruptly cause sometimes that just needs to happen.
@@SpaceTomato The game, at least earlier, tried to avoid taking those liberties. The effect of g-forces used to be really carefully simulated, taking into account not only the amount itself but also how long you are exposed to the g-force and in what direction, using real-life research to calibrate it. Now, we are dropping from NAV to SCM at ridiculous forces, but they used to respect reality more and I think many people wish that CIG had continued on that path. I do.
Honestly, people who think MM is arcade simply don't have that much experience with real flight simulators (and yes, it's not a proper _space_ simulator, but I won't go into how that would be even harder). They're pissed because now it's not a twitchy FPS where you can just sidestrafe away. Things have mass. Thrusters can't instantly change your direction (even more so than when they first revamped thrusters). You can't abuse poor server response time and latencies to just glitch your ship around and make yourself virtually impossible to hit. It's far closer to a flight sim than the previous flight system. That's why so many PvPers are pissed; not because it's simpler combat, but because it _WAS_ simpler combat. By slowing thrust down, now it feels like you're in a giant starship, rather than playing some PUBG character that can just strafe around like a ninja with a rifle.
Most of my friends (including myself) grew up on bonafide flight simulators like the Falcon series, MS Flight Sim, or War Thunder. And we found ourselves going from very frustrated in space combat, to suddenly feeling perfectly at home in the cockpit when MM launched. Now all our years of skills in flight sims fit right in, and we're excelling in space combat. I think the problem is that genre of gamers is fairly small, and the skills complex enough, it's not the normal go-to for competitive players (or sociopathic bullies). The closest you get these days is something like War Thunder, and not much else.
In short, it takes a lot more skill now than your typical kid looking for a quick thrill shooting up other players has patience for. In a world where shallow battle royal and squad FPS games have dominated for over a decade, they were suddenly way out of their league and got pissed off that it wasn't easy anymore.
Edit: Trust me, I've played games with real (unbound newtonian), and it's a terrible experience. It quickly becomes impossible to use anything other than realistic things like lasers, kinetic kill vehicles, or particle beams at ranges of dozens or hundreds of kilometers. The whole game would be boiled down to spreadsheets and then clicking a 'fire' button. Even if they'd kept it like it was before MM, they would have had to significantly slow down acceleration factors to plausible levels, and people would have complained ships were too sluggish. If you make them not sluggish, it goes back to being an FPS game in space, not a space combat sim. Keeping it more like an atmospheric flight sim is certainly a compromise, but it's a far better compromise than the other options people keep asking for.
It's a really hard game mechanic to judge, for myself, but it really is divisive. I just hope they can balance it so it's intuitive and fun!
@@SpaceTomato After chatting with some other people on it about why people consider MM 'arcady', I think it's coming from two main sources. But I agree in general, how a game 'feels' is very hard to judge. The main issue is it's based heavily on your experiences in gaming in general, and thus, what it feels most similar to for you. In my example, having played a lot of flight sims, MM feels much more like those than an arcade game, where as the previous flight model felt more like an FPS arcade game in 3 dimensions, with how strong strafing was. Others, who've spent time in other game genres, will probably have a different perspective.
The other reason I think people feel MM is arcady, is from the sounds of it in the interview with Yogi, they had to take a step back and some of the more realistic aspects of the flight model, since things like jerk haven't been built back in to the new MM system, but my understanding was, it is planned to come back. Additionally, many ships haven't been balanced yet, so they feel unrealistically responsive, making those feel even more like an arcade than flying a big lumbering starship.
In general, how a ship turns and accelerates probably has the largest contribution to what genre the game feels like, and jerk would certainly add another level of realism. Coupled with getting all the ships balanced from a flight performance perspective, it should get a lot better.
But the other thing people need to keep in mind is the goal, like it or not, is for it to feel like WWII dogfighting in atmosphere, despite being in space. That's always been the way CR has described how space combat is meant to feel. Things like the Retaliator with tons of gun turrets akin to a B-17, and torpedo bombers giving you this feeling of being a WWII submarine (complete with mines to behave like depth charges, once ships like the Nautilus gets out). That's just the end goal. It's not intended to feel like KSP or a proper newtonian physics model.
I couldn't disagree more. All my friends have gone back to playing other flight games since MM dropped. If MM is so much better, why isn't CIG keeping it? You say the game WAS twitchy, but I don't see that as being the case UNTIL MM.
@@stormycatmink I actually think if they want to lean into them feeling more like WW2 fighters, then the bigger ships should actually steer another direction, and feel more like WW2 boats (but in space obviously.) In which i mean they're not the most nimble things, have wider turning arcs, but also employ some weapons with far greater ranges than the fighters. (with lower traverse for those weapons to match.) Naturally with a much higher traverse rate and shorter range for the platforms on the big ships intended for anti-fighter defense.
I also believe S4 would be the perfect weapon size to add a Flak weapon, as it'd be perfect for a hammerhead and it's role, to have some of its guns be flak.
It could be easy to balance out said flak weapons by making the magazine dependent on the ship rather than the gun itself, as a flak round would be larger than what one would expect on fighter mounted machine guns or autocannons, so if someone loaded a hornet with a pair of flak guns, it'd tax it by not being able to store much ammo for them at all anyway.
Such area denial would be important for larger ships to be able to exert some control over the engagement versus much smaller craft.
@ You probably missed the part about why most people don't like it: Because it doesn't play like most other games. So your friends probably left for those games they like. This is designed to be like games from the 90s, not the 2010s.
You also didn't read about the changes to MM. The thing that's going away is having discrete modes. Now you can configure each as you like.. you can make the same modes if you wanted, but you will now have the flexibility to not to. But the flight model, slower speeds and handling is all staying. So no, MM isn't going away, it just lets you configure the modes.
If this is what you call "becoming too casual" then the full release of the game will make my job look like less work... and if that's the case then I better get paid for playing 1.0 and beyond.
I dont see flight and master modes changes that bad, it have slow down the pace of dogfighting (so no more full speed ramming combats ) and the feeling its quite good . Im missing some tools to reach scape speeds without getting into QT mode , An short time ultra boost maybe .
But so far soo good , I dont see it as a casual direction change, it is a change to something were not working as they intended, Chris have always said he want that movie spacedogfight style , not something ultra realistics as The Expanse have for example . Master modes fits that vision for me , combat before was quite fustrating and not controlable , just people booosting full speed hoping to get a quick kill by hit and run , and that was the only tactic to fight back , now you can still do run and hit but you will have to be really skilled to change between modes in the precise moment and risking way more due to shield off during QT.
I think its making things harder not casual.
I say no. In fact I hope they simplify the control scheme of ships and also the way you interact with controls and objects in the environment because it's honestly not fun in the current implementation.
Yet the cycle continues, continue to give them money, everything will change for the best, trust me xd
I hope the keep FPS hardcore and as realistic as possible.
Arcade? Casual? This? yeahhh...no. Not even close. I LOVE and i mean LOVE Elite: Dangerous. That game is more arcade and casual than this is. I prefer this in a lot of ways to elite for that reason. Less easy. lol.
But hey, just another opinion.
Still complex enough for me and damn if they dont dumb it down a bit they are gonna be here all century!
Let them simplify it for 1.0
Then push for more complexity.
This Game needs a wide audiences so IT needs to be more arcade. Inventar mechanics IS horrible though
Perfect conclusion.
Ive repeated myself over and over on SC issues but I never get use to my ships speed is slowed my landing gear is lowered. Not a gripe, but an effort to expose bad design.
Too many systems to cope with does make playing more of something for people who attained a PhD in it. Which in turn gives a push to further simplification and toning down. I don't need perfect simulation, immersion just requires keeping things believable. And hopefully intuitive.
I also think that some of the difficulties are due to bad dev and most certainly design decisions. Overall the SC UI is in a very bad state. It's pretty terrible. Having found the advanced HUD solves some things. With better UI a lot of difficulty goes away.
man mining is bugged almost every thing in it has a bug.... i love the game but damnit man.... its beyond ridiculous now
How is a game that forces u to waste at least 30min to START doing any kind of gameplay casual.
If the pitch has changed so much, is he going to give money back to the original backers?