When is Torture Justified? | Lt. Col. Jon S. Jackson | TEDxMemphis
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- Torture. Is it ever justified? Lieutenant Colonel Jon S. Jackson, a career Army officer and lawyer, takes aim at this difficult issue drawing on his experiences as defense counsel for detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
Lieutenant Colonel Jon S. Jackson is currently assigned to the Office of Military Commissions, Office of the Chief Defense Counsel. He is the Deputy Chief Defense Counsel for all assigned Army personnel and lead military defense counsel for Majid Khan. He previously represented Omar Khadr and Mustafa Ahmed al Hawsawi.
Prior to his assignment at the Office of Military Commissions, Office of the Chief Defense Counsel; he was the Deputy Chief for the United States Army’s Defense Counsel Assistance Program (DCAP).
Lieutenant Colonel Jackson was commissioned a second lieutenant through Army ROTC from Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, graduating magna cum laude with a degree in Aerospace Engineering. He then earned his Juris Doctorate from the University of Memphis School of Law. He also holds a Masters of Law degree with a specialty in criminal law from The Judge Advocate General’s Legal Center and School where he was named the trial advocacy honor graduate.
This talk was given at a TEDx event using the TED conference format but independently organized by a local community. Learn more at ted.com/tedx
![ARGENTINA vs. CHILE [3-0] | RESUMEN | ELIMINATORIAS SUDAMERICANAS | FECHA 7](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/De3AWmXzhuA/mqdefault.jpg)
"Equal justice under law. There is no asterisk."
10/10 quote
The Supreme Court only has Jurisdiction over Citizens in America.
There's no need for an Asterisk.
@@surveysays8335 yes but the Constitution extends to all, something about "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights.."
@@coreypowell7523 People love the constitution until it says something they don't agree with ¯\(ツ)/¯
@@ShaunDreclin I've always loved the Constitution and have never had any issues with it, but then I dont advocate for favoritism or one sided policies so I find myself always in toe with the Constitution
Corey Powell that line is from the Declaration of Independence not the constitution. The Declaration cited these rights as a reason that we were justified to break free from the United Kingdom, it didn’t guarantee that those rights would be protected under a new government or even discuss a new government
What an important issue that this man is blunt about. This view count is depressingly low
LEAVE IT TO THE PROFESSIONALS. that''s unfortunately what they did. those CIA professionals are masters at forms of torture that leave no marks on the body but instead destroy the mind and will which in my opinion is much worse.
@@JeanLucCaptain and dont get the trough out
@@ariari4133 truth? its facts/Intel they are supposed to be after.
Why depressing? Tells you how people feel. It's never justified. I'm guessing they feel they don't need to be told otherwise... given the title
I think it's the algorithm that suppresses the video because it's about torture.
Torture taints any confession. Renders information extracted either inaccurate, or inadmissible as actionable intel, often both. And there you have the fog of war creating more fog, fog that moves upwards. Clouding our perspective in the longer term.
Not true. Used correctly, its very effective and reliable. Its not used to obtain information, but to punish deceit. Its used to verify known information that the subject doesn't know you know. Its used to condition a subject, that you *always* know if they lie; lying = pain, honesty = comfort. It takes time. The only form of torture that is quickly effective, is sleep dep, but thats not considered 'torture', because its a standard tactic of law enforcement.
@@springbloom5940 But it is a very special situation that you already have that many verified informations. Plus you can never be sure about what the subject thinks is the truth because in war not everyone has all information. And then you would condition a subject in the wrong way, rendering all information as inaccurate again.
Edit: And torture is still wrong morally.
@@springbloom5940 Why verify KNOWN information?
What you are saying is torture is our way just to be mean to people. That makes it patently criminal and wholly and always indefensible.
@@PhrontDoor
Thats not what I said. I said its a means to condition someone for compliance; to 'break' them; to own their mind.
For example, you have information that you know the subject is unaware that you know. You know they'll lie about it. So, you ask them about it, let them lie and then punish the lie. You keep doing this and it modifies their behavior. They become conditioned to believe, not that you omnisciently know when they lie. Knowing that there is no end and they cant simply hold out for awhile, is crucial. The same goes with reward for honesty. *Then* , once you own their mind, you can start asking about things you dont know and you can reasonably trust they are being honest. Its exactly the way a parent conditions a child, but it requires initial deprogramming, aka 'brainwashing' and intensive behavior modification, because you dont have years and a blank slate to work with.
@@springbloom5940 used correctly is a huge caveat. And if history is any indicator, torture has never been exclusively for the sake of information gathering. And the incentives for slipping into a regressive mould are many, if sufficient checks and balances aren't in place and bosses ask for "results" .. there's the slippery slope in the real world. Hence, best avoided.
Torture is never an option and it should never be an option.
I served from 2008 to 2012 and I can say I’ve had thoughts about it, never going to lie about that, because when you are in combat and you’ve lost a friend to the enemy it gets to you. But I never, in my right mind of calm thinking, ever thought “Yes. Torture is justified and should be allowed.”
Sure to, most people, it gets results but how do you know if the results you are getting is actually true results? How can you know the person is just saying anything that you want to hear so that you stop torturing them? You don’t, you only find out weeks or months later after following a false lead. Then you have people who would get mad or say you should get mad.
Why? The person was just trying to do his human response to survive and you want to punish them for telling you what you wanted to hear?
No! You should punish yourselves for what you have done.
Torture is not justified, it never should be justified, and if you can’t agree with that then don’t feel the need to talk to me.
What you are implying is that there is no one who can avoid asking leading questions. Lets go through that example.... waterboarding as torture. If it is torture why are so many special forces being waterboarded during training. Does military law allow for torture? And if they are, for ages doing that, do you really think no one has cracked how to get good intel from bad, since they do it all the time. They got time to think about it.
Joao Silva Did you not understand the last part of my comment? I don’t have time yo argue with people like you who agree with torture and thinks it’s fine to use it.
@@KlLLERROBOT99 And I guess you hadn't even read the comment? He didn't say "Torture is good" or ANYTHING like that.
Mass Debater Do you even know what the word means kid?
That makes no sense. You are not the only person in the world, who can torture others. So even if your only objective was to avoid torture, you should still do it to avoid even more torture.
I'm dyslexic so probably not too clued up on this subject but I think the tortoise is a nice animal
I do too
Lol
I mean tortillas are pretty tasty but they aren't animals
@@jasonpyre8572 a tortilla is an animal, it's basically just a lizard dressed like a snail. I seen one. Watched it for a while as it very slowly walked away. Wouldn't eat one though
U mean ADHD?
"when is torture justified?" *Okay, im listening*
"Lt.Col.Jon S.Jackson" *Confused and paying more attention*
"drawing on his experiences as defense counsel for detainees at Guantanamo Bay,Cuba" *WHAT?*
Water boarding isn’t torture. Our troops are trained to deal with it. Pulling out fingernails or toenails is torture. Cutting off fingers one joint at a time is torture. We don’t do that.
@@RMorr50912 water boarding is torture. It mentally breaks people.
Troy Henry No it’s part of SF training. People do it on YT for fun...
@@zac3392 doing it for fun in a situation where your "safe". Is not the same to get info from someone. It is torture
Troy Henry I understand where you’re coming from, we don’t want to become the barbarians we are fighting. And to be clear, I don’t believe in torture: but my definition of torture would be physical pain that causes lasting damage. If you lump emotion into torture, then just making the interrogation room cold in a police station would be torture.
If you do some research, you’ll find that we have gotten some really good information that saved many American lives with waterboarding. If done correctly and not by a sadistic psycho, it can be productive. And when it’s over, the subject just sits up, blows their nose, and it’s over. The interrogator doesn’t suffer nightmares, because they know they did no permanent damage.
Glad to hear the prisoners have someone representing them
Pretty words but it is 2019 now and Guantanamo is still a thing.
Good. Google boko haram.
@@hukumbra common man. Nothing can justify Guantanamo.
@@hukumbra you cannot defeat the morally corrupt with morally corrupt behaviour. It creates a vicious circle of false justifications.
Mr. Safer lmao it’s a Ted Talk. It’s about ideas.
Let’s discuss the VIII Amendment, and its language which says the Amendment does not apply to only Citizens. “Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.” - The VIII Amendment. I am an attorney who used to be an Asst. DA, and under torture I’d cop to the JFK assassination though I was eleven months old.
As would I... and I was not even born at the time!
Torture only works if you want one thing, for the person to conform to say something you WANT them to say, whether that is true or false. So, to gain a confession for example, torture someone enough and they will confess they are not only a Witch, but sacrificed babies under a blood moon....
A bit graphic, but you get the point. As an Intelligence tool, torture is worse than useless, so not only is it morally wrong, it is also practically wrong.
Jeneva convention combatants could only hope to get into a civil court. This lecturer himself would be restricted to a military tribunal for courtmartial.
Torture is always wrong but under pressure people breakdown and forget their principles. Give this man the highest medal.
That is what training is for. So that People under pressure keep operating according to some basic principles. And don't tell me it does not work. Even under the Worst conditions imaginable, soldiers follow orders. Because that is "soldiering 101"'s first and last lesson. You follow the Chain of command, or People die. The same respect for the somewhat more lofty ideal of "You do not torture detainees, under any circumstance, and there is NO justification" could and should be instilled to make sure that it NEVER happens.
comingviking exactly! And to that end, I'm afraid the not-working part needs to be stressed much more.
In that case you should still torture to avoid even more torture.
Taxtro , I am sure we all believe torture degrades humans. It may happens, just like cheating on one’s wife, But it is always wrong.
Bettridge’s law. If the title is a question, the answer is always in the negative.
This has changed my views on torture
I used to say that it’s justified. Now I don’t know. There is a certain loss of humanity when one tortures.
I also see it as a desecration of U.S. values. It is awful to witness the corrosion of a great nation.
I disagree. It depends on WHY and for what purpose one is doing it. The drives are innately human. It is merely a matter or moral perspective. Living in constant terror of being attacked and destroyed leads to a greater loss of "humanity". If predators know the consequences of their attacking someone will be severe and decisive, they tend to choose a more pathetic and indecisive prey.
In a war situation, everyone is following orders and no one has a choice about who to attack. What torture does is escalate the viciousness of both sides. Both WWs and the Vietnam war give us ample evidence of this.
@@scottholley4712 Fear is human and you will never ever not be at risk of getting "destroyed", is it really worth it, to give up your humanity for an unreachable goal?
Make up your mind. You do know. It's certainly a loss of humanity to torture. Also, less morally important but practically important: torture gets people to say whatever you tell them to say - not useful information.
I can't imagine how one can justify torture or even feel ambiguous. Maybe read a first hand account from an American who endured torture? Maybe that will get you to remember your soul?
I think the easiest way to put it is: You see how good a society really is if you look at how well they treat their enemies and the poor.
The results (and as mentioned in the video, torture results are horribly flawed) never justify the procedure. You cant make your contry better, stronger, healthier or morally superior by using the sickest and dirtiest methods against your prisoners.
@bollo The Enigma It's the strong statement. It's weak to compromise one's values because of fear!
When you do things as bad as your enemy, who's the bad guy?
How can you define something *as bad* if you cannot gauge how *bad* something is, accurately relative to something else?
@@user-de6ex4ep1n When you do the same things as your enemy, who are you to jugde?
Is that okay for you?
As the saying goes. There are never any winners in war, it’s just how well you handled the war. Who lost the fewest people, who lost the fewest resources, etc... They might say there are winners and losers but the people who fought never call themselves winners, just survivors.
Same goes for this idea. No matter the “gauge” on how bad you did something, you never should of had to gauge it in general. If you have to gauge it, then no matter what you are in the wrong and nothing you say will change that.
As an answer to the original post: You both are the bad guys.
@@KlLLERROBOT99 I liked your comment because i agree.
lapland123 Glad someone people do, sadly others don’t.
When torture is used, the people in charge never end up in jail.
We can create a set of circumstances that pretend Torture works. The reality is it is never as we pretend, if a person does not know you risk causing great pain for nothing.
So make sure that person deserves great pain.
How can one be certain that someone else "deserves great pain"? How can that determination be logically defined?
@@HTYM You ask this with a Punisher skull? Read Ennis' run. Even Frank admits torture can be pretty unreliable for information, even for him, especially if it's on someone smart enough to control body language. He sees it as a waste of time, unless it's against someone like Baracudda.
@@Dunge0n….. How can anyone continue to like themselves are committing outragious atrocities on another.
@@Eric-ye5yz Because some people are atrocities.
3:25 that apply tree analogy is amazing
Thank you & others like you for standing up. I believe the whole nation needs to hear this. Very important issue.
A code of conduct for interrogation means nothing if it is not applied. And with the USA Army, it is not applied. We've seen what happened in Vietnam. It just goes on and on and the authorities seem to condone the use of torture. There is no point admitting it after the fact!
Torture is never justified because it should be what separates us from them.
their clear division between us and them is what really separates us from them
Its genuinely concerning that in 2019 we still even debate this. You can never give a government the power to justify torture.
This was uploaded in 2015 guy
@@gavynebaker6601 Yes, but even in 2019 there is still debate. Or do you think torture has suddenly stopped since 2015?
Eren Yeager that's the point. 4 years after the US torture program was exposed, there is STILL ongoing arguments about the use of torture in warzones.
So the government should have the authoriry to kill enemy soldiers, who just fight for their country? It is even allowed to kill enemy civilians. The government has the authority to initiate a nuclear war, incinerate whole cities and end human civilization. But torture must be wrong? That position is inconsistent.
Yes yiu can
American justice usually favors the criminal and that is why terrorists aren't usually tried in the USA. Torture is usually wrong, but I am sure there are rare occasions where due to time sensitive actions one time use may be moral.
Never.
NEVER ! Amy underwood here, for no reason I was snatched up 6 williamson county deputies . I was held down strapped into a chair with leather straps so tightly it ripped my shoulders and my hands feet and midsection were dark purple. The more I screamed the more they laughed and made demeaning insults about women. torture is never okay. police and military are monsters. The few bad apples defense is bullshite.
and no one cares about what happened to me , not the state of texas, not the texas rangers, not the fbi, no one...i cant get a lawyer and no one will help me...
Torture can never be justified under any circumstances it is inhumane and indignifies the torturer and tortured
Finally, a true hero of the armed services speaking. I'm getting kinda tired of seeing all the fake ones bringing in personal bias and running full speed to ruin.
Sorry to tell you but officers are the snot nosed kid that tells the real hero’s what to do
C. C. As he stated in the beginning section of his talk, he isn’t a combat soldier, he was in combat zones but he wasn’t in combat.
Your statement on him being a true hero isn’t very justified as for most of us, a hero is a person who was in combat and wasn’t able to return home. Those are the heroes.
This man, in my opinion, is doing a great job to bring this issue to center stage at this TEDx and I’m very glad he has done so because we’ve seen a lot of people talk about this subject but no one ever wants to dive into it head first. This Lt. has done this and more during this talk and for that I can thank him for doing so.
Because torture needs to be dealt with once and for all and we need to deal with it in a manner so that it won’t come back as a possibility for using in future conflicts.
all that human rights BS aside it does make sense that torture doesn't work, putting the body under a lot of stress leads to memory loss according to Shane O'Mara
Military top normal running pants bottom
Give this man a metal
What about titanium? Or should we give him aluminium? Which metal you want us to give him?
those are military dress pants, not running pants.
MrRedsjack aluminum to protect against aliens 👽
Kafinated fookin trakies m8 innit
@@Kafinated. Yes, but poorly fit and causing wrinkles that make them look like sweatpants.
It's not uncommon. The ASU's don't come off the hanger that often; OCP's are the daily duty uniform.
Jon Jackson is a great American, without a doubt.
Such madness. War on terror? War of terror around the world. 17 hijackers didn't have access to thermite.
Ironically, our uses of drones bring terrors to innocent civilians. they afraid of the blue sky because drone could be flying that day.
We're supposed to be better than our adversaries. They are the bad guys for a reason.
don't confuse forced confessions with information gathering
The very act of war is divorced from justice. War is ultimately a political decision to kill your enemies, because you designate them as your enemies, not because they are guilty of anything. To demand that all actions in war derive from justice shows a fundamentally error in the understanding of war.
Torture is never justified....not by usa/any country. NO. NO TORTURE. Period. cheers
I'm pretty confident that for the vast majority of people, including yourself, torture is justifiable. The question is 'when is torture justified?' Saying 'never' is absurd really if you think about it. What if we have captured a person who holds the deactivation code for a bomb that will destroy the planet and every living thing on it? Would we not be justified using torture if that was the only way to get the code? If you're being honest and are not just insane the answer is of coarse yes. What if the bomb would only kill half the people on the planet? 1 billion? A million? You see where I'm going. What does 'it doesn't work' mean? It has a 0% chance of providing us with useful information? Again, absurd.
Torture is NEVER JUSTIFIED
didn't sun tzu say something about catching more flys with honey?
Sun Tzu teaches the best way to get the most efficient outcome in life
Yes but you got the pro lifers who are ironically pro torture demanding all POW's be tortured and executed.
That’s my stepdad! :D
That’s my uncle 👁👄👁
torture dos not work if you torture people they wil say ewerything to make it stop
If I say I'll put you through great pain, the person will most of the time tell me what I want to hear. Torture doesn't work!
They know, when they ask
So, it's a kill, (. Suicide)
It's to horryfying, the rest
@@kirstinetermansen7234 ?🤔
Except it works on most
no one is treated equally.
I grew up with a daily dose of Fox News and was thoroughly brainwashed into thinking torture worked and was justified. All it took to realize how utterly pointless torture is was to imagine the worst suffering I've experienced and imagine the extreme things I would do and say to make it end. A better question would be to ask what would you not say to end suffering.
Torture to force a confession has nothing to do with torture to extract information.
He did not address that many torturers do it for pleasure, under the guise of national security interest.
Whether torture is justified and whether it works is completely irrelevant.
All that matters is winning.
And the easiest opponent to defeat and the one that is most cooperative is one who is angry, vengeful, and brutal.
If you want to be predictable then fine go ahead and torture, but know that you are by far the easiest opponent to deal with because your focus is on fear, vengeance, shock, and maybe a single piece of intel that may already be out of date and irrelevant. A one trick pony that only knows fear.
The monsters who crave violence and torture each other will die by their own hands.
No matter who is superior in weapons or purer in their intent does not change the fact that you will be replaced by cooler heads after you have torn yourselves to pieces.
An adult will come take your toys away because you will be too weak to stop it.
Unfortunately innocent people will suffer as well because they will be seen as complicit in the crimes of their neighbors and guilty of not speaking out against their modern versions of concentration (torture) camps.
In the same way that innocent people are killed by bombs and seen as acceptable collateral apparently; so too will we be seen as acceptable collateral for anyone who is injured by our civilization, feels threatened by, and/or is simply against what we do or don't do. They won't need an ideology to hate us!
If you want to win you have to decrease opponents faster than you grow opponents. It is the simple math of survival and risk/reward ratios etc.
Torture/Knee jerk violence is a guaranteed way to exponentiate the number of fronts you must fight on.
Hitler took that to the extreme. He was among the least skilled leaders in history. He inflicted maximum damage on his own people and country and does not deserve credit for essentially sneaking up on weaker/unprepared people and smacking them in the head. It is the equivalent of a school shooting. You don't get credit for surprising a bunch of people.
ArchimedesWorld well said.
Rediculous all or nothing / slippery slope diatribe. Torture has always been proven to be very effective, even if sometimes the info is skewed. The majority of the time it is accurate.
Then why do so many people keep saying its been unequivocally proven to be unreliable?
can I post these great words on my tumbler feed? because that's one for the quotation books. also very true and happening right now. Russia, China and the middle east are the cooler heads that are currently prevailing.
@@MP-db9sw The people saying that have an ideological agenda to push, so they create and publicize, ill conceived "studies" to support their ideology.
Regular americans can be tortured by police, jail, prison, treatment centers for the mentally ill. Torture is not limited to trying to extract information from people.
but surely it is ok if its the good guys doing it? (ok ok....just making a point! its never ok - by anybody)
The answer to this question is NEVER!
Remix and Karaoke yes, we should fight with the weapons of the “Spirit”.
never
Is torture justified?
No. Never. It is highly illegal and what’s more it has a track record of producing utterly ineffective and untrustworthy results. The moment an interrogator turns to torture the interrogator openly admits he is completely unqualified and inept at his job.
Torture is just semantics. In Singapore they cane people and it’s supposed to be excruciatingly painful, torture by any definition. The thing about caning however is that it was intended as an alternative to incarceration. In America the same criminal might spend years in prison. How is that a better alternative? Personally, I’d rather get my punishment in a quick, dreadful and painful manner and then get on with the rest of my short life than spend years in prison.
So what your saying is that the information taken from torture is unreliable because the person is in a desperate state and will tell the people what they want because they are in a heightened state of self preservation. They wanted the pain to stop.
The perceived need for torture depends on the how, who, what, when, and wheres. Where are you? Who is at risk and who are you talking to? How much time do you have? How much damage might we be facing? What are the odds that the person you are talking to actually has what you need? And, How long can the person resist your non-violent questions and persuasion?
The last question is the biggest. Can you live with the deaths of several of your friends or even family members if you cannot get the information in time?
Remember not all torture is done for military reasons, but that last question still applies. To a soldier their fellow soldiers are closer than most family members are to them.
If it was your family at risk could you sit and let them die? Or would you try everything in your power to save them?
God willing you never have to find out.
Why is it that one side say torture doesn't work and others say it does? Aren't there people who can have the more nuanced approach to say that torture most often produce false information but it can still work? And that it isn't justified to torture people because of that low effectiveness, the problems caused by false information and more importantly because it is immoral... Why are issues and opinions so extreme...? I lose faith in people credibility when they have such extreme stances.
For instance, if you knew from a reliable method of intelligence that someone had planted a bomb and you had 1 hour to find it...
Wouldn't torture in this rare circumstance be a tactic that increases the success rate of finding it even if the chance are small (assuming you don't solely rely on it and use other method at the same time)? We can still call something unreliable, less effective and immoral without completely invalidating it and saying it is completely useless no matter what the circumstances...
That's a sunrise, because --
1. He is in army, early bird
2. Sky seems bluer, calmer
3. Few/no artificial lights as most people are sleeping
Figuratively...ON Guantanamo.
He's asking if this is the start of worse things to come or the end of what has been.
i am astonished that only 50% of americans think torture is good, i toiught it around 85%.But the fact you are still asking the question is quite depressing because the civilised country have stopped to use torture some times ago, because troture is useless and anyone will admit anything Under the right pressure so the informations collected would be false. Torture is useless, inhuman and therefore the question do not have to be raised, it should be self evident. But Sir, i am quite happy to see and hear that the USA have still some cold headed and smart people be it in the civil society or the military.
get deep enough into a conversation and it will always come down to "well they deserve it" Many people want punishment more than they want solutions.
Being in the military the first thing I thought was why does his tie look so jacked up.
The fundamental legal basis for approving certain types of torture after 9/11 was, if I recall correctly, merely a series of legal memoranda written by a lawyer, John Yoo. However, while opinions in the form of legal precedence and case law have considerable weight, they are *not* a substitute for a law - especially important international laws such as The Geneva Convention. Because if one lawyer's 'legal opinion' may be substituted for International Law, we may as well just do away with all laws and conventions. I am surprised that this has not surfaced regarding the unfortunate proceedings resulting from these horrifying and misguided policy blunders. Or am I seeing this wrong? I understand that many of those tortured were designated 'enemy combatants' or 'insurgents' or 'terrorists' as opposed to soldiers of regular organized military units operated by 'the enemy'. But... Frankly, it was, in fact, warfare one way or another.
You're right, but this guy is still under military employment and thus not supposed to be openly defiant like articulating that on TV. That's why he is so ambiguous about asking to close Guantanamo. If you listen to him carefully he's dead clear in his opinion that the only purpose of Guantanamo is to facilitate illegal torture. But he never says it quite directly enough to be openly insubordinate .
I remembered John Yoo because of the controversy he created when he justified torturing children (of suspects).
Its never justified - for a start, the whole point of torture is to obtain information. By definition, then, you don't know if the person you're torturing has the information you want. This could amount to the torture of an innocent person, either innocent in the most literal sense, or innocent in the sense of not being in any way responsible for the specific acts / associations for which they're being tortured.
Second, people who are tortured are usually 'detainees', i.e. they're not convicted criminals. So not only does torture amount to cruel and unusual punishment - something that is illegal, and widely recognized as inherently immoral - but it amounts to the punishment of someone who has not even been tried and convicted of a crime. Its a direct violation of the right to due process before the law.
Third, for one state to capture citizens of another state and subject them to torture is clearly immoral in the sense that if their own government can't be said to have right to do these things, by what right can a foreign power? Americans storming all over the world and torturing foreigners is not only immoral, but its arrogant. They have no right, its as simple as that.
And fourth, as plenty of people have pointed out, its inhumane. Only barbarians torture people. It is not how any civilized society ought to behave. Even refraining from torture leads to loss of life (and there's no evidence that torture is actually effective as a means of preventing loss of life), it would still be inexcusable, because we have a duty to preserve the moral high ground. If we descend into barbarity, what exactly are we fighting to protect?
I'm pretty confident that for the vast majority of people, including yourself, torture is justifiable. The question is 'when is torture justified?' Saying 'never' is absurd really if you think about it. What if we have captured a person who holds the deactivation code for a bomb that will destroy the planet and every living thing on it? Would we not be justified using torture if that was the only way to get the code? If you're being honest and are not just insane the answer is of coarse yes. What if the bomb would only kill half the people on the planet? 1 billion? A million? You see where I'm going. What does 'it doesn't work' mean? It has a 0% chance of providing us with useful information? Again, absurd.
@@andy-mb3nn I think you're taking the word 'never' too literally, so let me be more specific: torture is so horrendous an abuse of a person's human rights that it should have no justification in law, since the circumstances under which it might be moral are so unlikely, and so difficult to define, that providing any legal justification would set such an absurdly high bar as to render the law pointless. If the law allowed for anything other than the most absurdly stringent justification for torture, then it would be open to abuse and would probably lead to the morally unjustified use of torture.
To put that all another way, if I personally had to torture someone in the sincere belief that it was the only way to save the world, I would. But in doing so, I would have to accept that I am still committing one of the most horrendous abuses of human rights possible, and would therefore accept the legal consequences that follow from it. Further, I would also have to accept the possibility that I was mistaken in my initial belief, so even if we take a purely consequentialist view, the morality of my action would be entirely unknown until after the fact.
>By definition, then, you don't know if the person you're torturing has the information you want.
That's not true. I know that you have a name, but I don't know what it is. A kidnapper can know where his victim is and admit to it without telling me where she is.
>because we have a duty to preserve the moral high ground
Your "moral high ground" is completely immoral. If you refrain from inflicting a tiny bit of fear or a little bit of pain and thereby accept unlimited ammounts of pain inflicted by others, you are totally morally bankrupt and really not a tiny bit better than the people doing the torturing.
Never, why? Because it has been comprehensively shown not to work. People being tortured will say ANYTHING to get it to stop.
I more so condemn the pleasure in torture. The sadistic mindset behind it which many inflictors have vs. the act if ever justified.
Torture can only be justified (in my opinion) if all of these conditions are met: 1. The one to be tortured has been proven in court to have information but does not give it. 2. That information is proven in court to be able to save lives with a chance greater than 1%. 3. The torture is set up in a way that only rewards correct information (e.g. torture at regular intervals until information has been verified true, the verification taking shorter than that interval) 4. The one torturing is a volunteer. 5. no loopholes I have not thought about.
It’s a matter of principle.
Do we have the tact and integrity to hold ourselves to a higher standard than our enemies hold themselves?
Do we truly intend to be an advanced society not just technologically but culturally?
If we consider ourselves to be above the baser instincts of lesser men then should we not behave in a manner that exudes excellence?
People forget that we have such stringent rules of engagement and treatment of prisoners because we historically have not wanted to be counted in the same class as the brutal tyrants we have fought against in the past. We have proven that we do not need their methods to succeed. No matter how quick and easy it may make things, it’s wrong. We have the capacity to do better, and we should do better.
Torture and the death penalty are 100% absolute solutions for things we can never be 100% certain about.
We can never be 100% sure the suspect has information or is guilty of a death-penalty-worthy-crime.
As long as you won't allow them make the mistake of wrongly torturing you or sentence you to death, you should be against the these 'solutions'.
Don't allow it happen to someone else if you wouldn't allow it to happen to you.
Because you'll be in danger of wrongfully enduring it yourself if you allow this to happen. If not now, maybe in the future.
(I brought in the death penalty as well because it should follow the same way of reasoning, while it's still a thing around the world.)
I agree as a US citizen that as the bearers of freedom for the world, we should not torture, and that those who commit war crimes such as torture should be punished.
HOWEVER, you should not stand on your own moral pedestal and say you would never commit a war crime if you were put in the positions that many combat soldiers, sailors and marines have been put in the past. The reason you haven’t killed anyone wrongly is because you haven’t been put in such degrading situations as many face or have faced in the Middle East for the past two decades. You live a comfy life where everything works perfectly(comparatively speaking).
If you want to go down the journey of the reality of combat, watch and put yourself in the minds and characters of Generation Kill. That show really helped me as a civilian understand the position many were put in during the invasion of Iraq in 2003.
Couple of questions:
First: How does the fact that the enemy isn't wearing a uniform impact the application of the Geneva convention?
2nd: If water boarding is torture, then how do we get away with it when training our own troops? Many are subjected to water boarding during SERE and other survival training.
3rd: I fail to see the issue with the mental games and stress designed to wear you down mentally. I agree physical torture is unreliable as people will say anything to get it to stop.
Any type of mental or physical torture is extremely unreliable. Even more so for mental torture. Such system is horrendously immoral and violates basic human rights. Unless you believe accused terrorists from a non-us citizenship do not deserve the protection of the law. Then welcome to 1940s Germany where anyone other that your own race is a cockroach. And @puterbac I'm not specifically aiming this at you. But just in general to anyone who thinks torturing is acceptable.
On your second question -- it's a voluntary step in training. The government thinks it's necessary to harden our troops against illegal torture inflicted by enemy forces, so in SERE training, they simulate what it might be like to be captured by forces who act in violation of the Geneva conventions. This is voluntary, however -- cadets can tap out at any time, though this might lead to failing the training. (Incidentally, the military banned waterboarding in training back in 2007, because it was decided that it did not provide any sort of "instructional or training benefit". A good call, I'd say.)
On your third question -- psychological torture can be just as harmful and can lead to just as unreliable information as physical torture. Ultimately, all forms of torture aim for the same psychological response: the "breaking" of the subject into compliance with what the torturer wants. This is different from psychological tricks that trip up people in lies, or tricking a subject into trusting their interrogator. Sleep deprivation, music torture, and similar approaches aim to produce an intensely distressing state of mind in the subject very similar to that caused by physical torture, which not only leads to unreliable statements, but is cruel and unusual punishment, and violates the US Constitution.
Do unto others as you would have them do to you.
This was a great, thank you Lt. Col. Jackson and thank you for your service.
Slay em all. Sure you would love to be slain, wouldnt you?
And there goes your proverb.
Lately, it's an entertainment option and I am ashamed of those funding and ignoring it. Somehow the torture of Children of is justified and somehow torturing them again as adults has been justified also even worse used for entertainment factors with a menu and getting pushed.
I appreciate the incredible devotion to the defendants that he represents. I disagree that EPWs are entitled to rights under the U.S Constitution. Geneva Convention rights to be sure. But not the rights of our Constitution.
*I'm a Combat Infantryman (Iraq)
WELL then I'm pretty sure they will treat your buddies like the US has treated theirs. that RIGHT THERE is the problem. its an endless cycle of needless suffering the USA perpetuates on every level.
I certainly understand both his and your arguments.
There is an absolute gray area between the Geneva Convention and the U.S Constitution, hence why this is technically legal...
But I would like to emphasize his point and add on to it. If we are considering Guantanamo as U.S soil, then it could be argued that the four words he mentions "Equal Justice Under Law (with no asterisk)" should be applied to them.
The issue is I can't seem to find if Guantanamo is considered U.S soil or not... Seems that sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't
@@TheManlol12 it is operated by the US military so those laws SHOULD AND DO APPLY. The US is not allowed to Conveniently Pick and Choose which laws apply to it.
@Shirley Haney the US Elites need to be Superior to us all. they can't help it. and they are the people responisible for this. unfortunately plenty of sheeple are willing to go along with it.
@Shirley Haney PETA?
Never
One of our greatest achievements is the western civilization as we have it today. Just, Equal, Empathic and Peaceful. Torture is below our dignity and is on top absolute useless besides making a human, living and feeling being, suffer. Torture is for savages, it fundamentally stands against everything we build and fought for. It is never justified. Not against terrorists, not against murderers, not against child abusers. Never.
Maybe it's cuz he's wearing penny loafers but damn sir could you have hemed them pants up!
This should have been a 5 second video of him saying "When is toture justified? Never. Goodbye."
Anyone else think that his uniform looked a little to big on him
Torture is never EVER justified. The human dignity is inviolable even for the worst perpetrators.
How tall is this guy?!
Tonino Belimussi very
Too
Yes
8/9 feet?
@@jumbo4billion no I'm sure he has only two feet
What if a detainee had a piece of intelligence that could save thousands of Americans lives?
Classic American trick blame the the robot for and not the engineering
bruh everytime the us mitlary is portraited in us movies, it is the us military that is sponsoring those shows and movies
“Never.” End of Lecture.
Who gives a frak what a military lawyer says? To anyone with real morals, the answer is NEVER.
And that's exactly what he said. So what's your problem?
Never never never
the guy who tortured me killed himself when i mock executed a child
this is why torture is bad, i mock execute children now
Thanks man, you're great.
I understand they have an important job, but I also understand that there are people that see these people as the utter worst.
I get why he would want to make us, experts on the subject, justify the thing he's supposed to be justifying. It makes sense. Kind of hard to think critically about something when the person you would have to debate with is yourself.
Please next time watch and listen to the video before ranting against someone who agrees with you. The title is a question. Spoiler alert: the answer he gives in the video is "Never is, never was, never will be".
It might be bad if it’s a 🌄 sunrise, and you were bad to the son sitting still minding his or her own business.
"War on terror" is such a joke.
What does the sunrise sunset thing mean?
That when you're over there you wish you had never seen any of the latter.
At the time this video was made in 2015 there was still a possibility that Obama and government might follow through on their promises and close Guantanamo. It didn't happen, unfortunately. And at the time it already seemed unlikely, despite having been a major election promise. This sunset /sunrise rhetorical question is likely not just meant to be poetic, but also subtle and indirect. This guy still works in the military and openly calling for Guantanamo to close is probably somewhat improper. But generally calling for the law of torture to be applied (illegal) and implying that Guantanamo should be closed poetically, is ambiguous enough that he can say it on TV.
That's my guess anyway. He seems pretty strong on the issue and earlier in the video questions the purpose of Guantanamo if there are already functioning legal courts in the USA. He rightly indicated this system is a top down encouragement of extra-legal torture.
So he is basically saying this to encourage his audience to try and get Guantanamo closed, even though he is still in the military and can't be totally open about it and at that point few believed Obama would be politically able to follow through on the promise to close Guantanamo. As it was always a political problem keeping Guantanamo open, if there was enough popular political will, we could just close it.
He is right and we should.
4:04 camera guy makes clickbait tumbnail
Americans: When we do it.
Seems right now because right now all I can go is look at clock and feel pain know I can't do anything as feel a lot pain physical and mental. I so tired and depressed I feel like doing nothing so all I can do is sit here looking at time barley movie as a feel awful pain with no relief
Not a lot in that
Let's be blunt. Torture by government cannot be legally justified because if the consequences of allowing government to torture. So it cannot be legally justified. That's it! It's that simple. But on the other hand, it can be justified morally under some circumstances. If your family had been kidnapped and to be killed and you have someone who knows information that can save them, and you have him handcuffed and alone, you would be morally, but not legally justified.
Save it does not work..... That is the problem, torture does NOT work as an Intelligence gathering tool. Intelligence gained under torture is almost ALWAYS incorrect. It is a Hollywood myth, especially given the fact that even relatively weak willed people will take time to break under torture.... and the kind of information you resort to torture to get in the movies is always time sensitive.... you are NOT getting time sensitive information through torture. Hurt the guy enough he will tell you literally anything to make you stop... and the truth is usually the LAST thing he chooses, what he thinks you WANT to hear will be what he tells you.....
@@alganhar1 Who said anything about an intelligence gathering tool? I agree it's not a reliable tool for that. But people personally involved and the perp knowing it's personal and no one is there or will be there to help? That's another matter.
Suppose you were a member of some terrorist org and I was a member of some police or military org and I was seeking to extract info from you. I have rules to follow and you know it. It's not personal to me and you know it. My actions to make you suffer have limits and you know it. Therefore what I am able to get from you is limited and suspect.
Now suppose I am not a member of anything. And suppose you are just a vermin thug who knows he where abouts of my kid who has been kidnapped and I have captured you. I have no limits and you know it. I and not going to be held accountable for whatever I do to you and you know it. Even if you know I will kill you anyway, your suffering will only get worse until I get the information I want and I have already inflicted far more than any government agency would be allowed. Imagine you are just a thug criminal and not a religious zealot who expects to see paradise when I am done with you. You will talk eventually even if only to make the suffering stop.
Torture works but ONLY when and if the subject understands there are no limits and the torture exceeds any pretense of limits. That is simply not possible when western civilized governments are involved.
This hasnt changed my mind but he did a fantastic job articulating his points making a case against systemic torture. Well done sir👏
May we hear your case for torture?
@@jalilcompaore bdsm
@@jalilcompaoreProbably whatever brainwashing the GOP gives out these days coupled with some good old fashioned racism.
NEVER. next question ?
700/600 years ago in the Netherlands whe got manny ways of tortures,it do not work. Those days we new that justefied,is it usefull,?what comes around ,goes around,
I mean just use all the other kinds of interrogation methods of torture is so inefficient
Can i ask your opinion about this question.
When it is justifiable to torture suspected criminals?
Never
Well i think its justified when lifes are on the board And you can save them by torturing someone
3:35 Jim lahey?
His pants are terrible.
Can someone please explain the story of the Japanese soldier at the end? it makes no sense the way he said it!
CBT