This is the largest issue. People not letting others progress just because they are stronger. If they could simply play like humans instead of animals it would be more fun.
@@Thorvall715 Yeah but just look at the people up and down the comments defending this stuff and how aggressive and elitist they are about it. There’s no chance at all these people would ever let a bunch of new players actually get established. If they do that there’s a chance that one or more of those players might actually be way better than they are. Since being on top of the ladder in a niche MMO is probably the highest peak many of these guys will ever experience, they’re desperate to hold onto that any way they can. That means nuking everyone and everything else and then bullying people about how “soft” they are. It’s all many of these weirdos have in life I think. Well that, and the hentai/furry Discord servers they’re mods in.
As long as there are no consequences for being a murderous psychopath in games, the griefers will just continue griefing until only griefers remain. This exact loop has killed many games now.
@@Quickb3n see the thing about EVE online is that they do have systems that help casuals be able to play and progress despite the hardcore loop most of the game runs off. I never felt like other players were keeping me from playing, and im so casual i actively avoid pvp.
I remember discussion over Tera back when it had this thing called a "Playerbase" that players in the PvP servers were complaining that there was almost no one left there and that most people were playing on the PvE servers instead. And I was like "Maybe you max level players shouldn't farm 24/24 just outside the newbie town (where all new players pass by) killing every low level player over and over before they even gets to play the game" Mind blowing I know....years later, they merged the PvP server with a PvE one, forming a PvE server, leaving the game with no more PvP servers.
Yeah, the early Alpha of New World was similar. The PvPers held most of the map, and if you walked past their towns, they would sneak up behind you while you were fighting a pve mob, OR, when you were doing something you couldn't just cancel out of. My favorite trick (because you had to declare criminal intent to attack everyone, but, if not declared, you could only attack "Criminals " which were players who killed someone else) was the guy who teamed up with a friend, and only ONE was a criminal, so, you either had to have flagged "criminal intent" or you lose because you can't attack the second player. Heck, the PvP players still use one of the "cheats" where they get great def wearing a single piece of high level heavy armor. So they move faster, because they have a "light" armor load, while the other person has a "normal" load, and is slightly slower
To think that could of been avoided so easy Warhammer AOR had level caps for PVP granted it was 10 levels and thats a lot but it stopped people been max level smashing level 5's.
"Just toughen up and grind again" I already do repetitive and tedious stuff with people wanting to harm me in my daily life... with actual rewarding results, it's called having a job. I don't want a second job were my only reward is a graphical change.
The idea of grinding in games is already a mood killer for me. Grinding for something that could be taken away at any moment seems so utterly disheartening and unfun I can't imagine enjoying even a fun grind.
@@nerfer1091 Warframe is one of the very few games where I can stomach grinding because the actual gameplay is so varied and I personally find it very fun. The grind is almost always secondary to just enjoying the game, and I can always just jump into a different game-mode if I get bored, or even a different game as the vast majority of it isn't time-gated. But grinding for something in a game like, say, Sea of Thieves where the gameplay isn't great and where said rewards can be taken away from you on a whim by someone who's got 100s of hours? Yeah, no thanks, and games like Mortal Online give me similar vibes. Similarly I never found grinding for anything in Destiny to be fun at all because you have to build your entire schedule around the game's in order to really get anywhere. Tl;dr: grind can be OK, but only when it's not the sole thing driving you and doesn't demand that you upend your entire life to engage with it.
I played an MMO like that for years and I would like to add that if a sheep manages to kill a wolf, the wolf goes into a berserker rage, calls the sheep a hacker and a no-lifer and a zerg and musters up every single excuse he can find for dying, and finally come the death threats.
But as the sheep who kills the wolf, _nothing_ in a video game feels better than killing the wolf. Nothing, nothing a game dev can make, and nothing that already exists. The euphoria of dominating another player works both ways.
@@SometimesBuddha Lol, and imagine taking those pixels seriously. I call you stupid and you only become that if you accept it. If you're, say, from a civilization that has discovered fire and have some frontal lobe development, you'll be fine, Twitter user.
As someone who was MMO RTS designer - I have something to say about hardcore PvP player base: "People play PVP because they love to feel powerful by dominating other people." "People are cowards." As my experience with a hardcore open PVP games (both as player and as a designer) stands, this is simple. - People hate losing things. - People hate taking risks. - People LOVE crushing other people. The only situation where all these things are covered are - power imbalance. Hardcore-full-loot-MMO is a noob crusher simulator. Unlike Anime "combat addicts" most of the player base will not look for the strongest players around to challenge them. They will go around looking for easy targets. Even if defeating them gives them -LITERALLY NOTHING-. That is why these games struggle with retention. Because once some players amass enough strength (level/equipment) to make sure they are undefeatable by a regular joe (or at least a naked guy), they avoid each other (too much of a risk, not much to gain... both have rare gear so difference is too little compared to the risk) and hunt the regulars relentlessly. The situation is not: I have grinded for dozens of hours to get this epic sword and got killed by this regular guy. I am sad, he is happy. I quit. The general situation IS: I have grinded for dozens of hours to get this epic sword and got killed, again, by a guy twice my level in a full set of legendary gear who dances on my corpse and then dismantles my sword for some mats. Getting killed by someone weaker - less equipped etc. is not frustrating. Because (let's be real here) most people go: "Damn he got lucky, I can take him next time!" Getting killed by someone insurmountably stronger is EXTREMELY frustrating because it feels pointless. There is no worse feeling than "I lost all I had, and there was nothing I could have done about it. And the fucker didn't even need my stuff."
No need to type all that textwall. The last sentence summurizes it pretty well. Such games could remove levels/item tiers etc and make just everything cosmetic but then the people that play them would realize theres nothing to progress into and that they are playing 10000 people Team Fortress 2 which might be fun at first but extremely boring in the long run.
You’re coming up with some pretty resentful viewpoints on the pvp base. I’d say it’s more of a benign relationship with competition, which is something you see with virtually every online multiplayer pvp game. (Fps, moba, etc). It’s just another iteration of sports. People don’t play baseball because they’re cowards that want to ‘dominate’ people.
@@Czjk293 Keep in mind this argument is only against *full loot* pvp mmos, not all pvp in mmo games. in a game like baseball, everything is made equal except for player skill, making the game a determiner of that. In a full loot pvp mmo, it is almost impossible to fight on equal ground, and players of high skill are incentivised to avoid eachother and only fight weaker players.
Exactly. Hardcore Full Loot PVP MMO's fail because they inevitably become griefer havens. The end result is always a Lord of the Flies scenario, where one player or group that pays or plays more than the others gets all the best weapons and resources, and then spends the rest of their time spawn-killing any new players that enter the server until they quit from frustration. Then that group complains that no-one is playing the game anymore.
The trick is to join a guild BEFORE you start playing. Then suddenly it all becomes about camaraderie and sportsmanship. Not a lot of games pull it off successfully though, guild systems I mean. If you're not into PvP simply don't play such games in the first place, there are plenty of alternatives for co-op or solo-centric experiences. It's a niche. They don't fail because they're "griefer havens", they fail because they're bad games (like Mortal Online). EVE Online and Ultima Online didn't fail, if you think they did think again.
@@FairyRat That'd be good and all, if these same communities didn't either have a caste system of their own, or actually had decent players who'd play with you to begin with. I remember my time scouring guilds or Discord servers looking for people to play with, only to come up empty, find some really unpleasant and impatient people, or in the case of a survival game I tried playing in pugs with: End up being paired with children.
After playing these kinda games for a while, it really boils down to a very shallow concept that applies to full loot MMO's You're either advantaged in a fight or you're disadvantaged. alot of the time you can tell before the fight even begins This can be because of Gear difference or simply a matter of them having more players For me there's 0 joy in this dynamic, there's no skill, there's no "hardcore" aspect to it imo. It's just a matter of who plays the advantage. flattening someone I know wont be able to fight back is boring, getting rolled in a 4v1 is boring. It took me a while to realise, but really there's nothing driving me to play more No one in a Full loot PVP mmo plays to lose, any advantage they can get, they will get. If they can get a max party of plays, they will.
I remember playing darkfall for a few years, a full loot MMO, the thing that was frustrating about that game is that you often would get attacked by high level players in gear you couldn't even touch, but they rarely seemed to fight each other because the risk was too great. Hence they went around killing all the casual/low tier players, then would complain on the forums that the game was "dead".
It's almost poetic how the FLMMO players are the ones killing their own games. They kill too many casual players, those players leave, and the game dies due to population decline. Truly hardcore, so hardcore they kill the game too, lol.
So what is your fix.... I spot a guy in my hardcore pvp game, he has about the same level of stuff equipped as me. Is this a causal who just managed to get to this point, for the first time ever, and Im one of those mythical evil hardcore players, or is this actually the hardcore player, who just started out, and I could save both the casuals and the entire game, from this oncomming menace, who got the insane idea to try and be the best at it. How is it you guys make that judgement?
@@PerN1660 You're assuming most people are gonna stick around for that long, or that hardcore PVP MMO fans only pick fair fights. You can see what actually happens in games like EVE or Albion, where people who got on early/bought the best shit with IRL money and then camp crafters who aren't built for combat to take all the mats and other loot they can. The game's are designed for the small amount of "wolf" players but requires a large amount of "sheep" players to function, since those "sheep" players are effectively NPC enemy replacements. Why would a crafter want to stick around in a game where they can't make progress? This is why these games have such small playerbases. So to answer your first question: There isn't a fix. The design choices made are inherently conflicting; An RPG (games about slowly building a character and gaining progress over time) and world systems in which you can lose a significant amount of progress in an instant with no safeguards just do not work. If you wanna see more about this, I'd suggest this GDC talk about "cursed problems" in game design, which I absolutely believe hardcore PVP MMO's fall under: ruclips.net/video/8uE6-vIi1rQ/видео.html
Meh, eve online still breaking Guinness records for biggest PvP battles with the most amount of players participating. The new players who experience loss and come back for more become lifers. If they want to be safe and warm they can go play hello kitty.
@@kiwi3085 The big sad moment for me, some of those Full loot hardcore pvp MMOs sometimes have some pretty fun non-combat things in them, with all the side life skilling or crafting things, and when all you wanna do is craft, but the mega-guild who devoured everyone and everything sees you and just murders you and all you wanna do is craft, but you can't because everytime they see you even if you're out and about they 5+v1 you, and if you even manage to become a pain in their ass, they then decide to put kill bounties on you for everyone to partake in.. ..So now all you have after you is the entire server of people who will do nothing but 5v1 you and post kill proof on the group's discord/forums since the only time anyone really does fuck with you is if they go 2+ on you, because that's how PvP/WPVP is done. ...and you just wanna do nothing else *but* crafting, but now your choice on the game is quit or deal with it and be fine being ganked endlessly by everyone... Only for when you quit, be messaged by the people that made you basically quit because you JUST WANTED TO CRAFT go all 'hey you should come back because you made the game interesting' because they've ganked everyone off the game. ..Specific, I know.
I think there's another layer here that you were simply to polite to name directly, which is that the number of Hardcore Full Loot PVP MMO players isn't even nearly as large as the number of player claiming to be Hardcore Full Loot PvP MMO fans, because once all the naive casuals are gone, many of them quickly drop the game themselves, because they decided it's not so much fun anymore to get beaten up by more hardcore players when there's nobody left to punch down on.
Good ole Runescape comes to mind. "PVP" only servers...well guess what? Mr Hardcore PVPer pops on, gets done over twice just stepping out of a bank, doesn't go back. He'd MUCH RATHER beat down on some level 2 doing a quest...Pretty much all "hardcore PvPer's" are just 12 year old bullies who'd rather steal than work for gains. Edit: Point Number Three is that something that costs you nothing is worth nothing to you. There's no real sense of "I made that" in it.
Not sure if it would still be a FLPMMO, but I think that can be alleviated by systems that stop stagnation of the power structure, and make it so newer players can't be instantly curb stomped.
@Kimi Timoskainen This only show your pvp community don't prefer hardcore pvp. Else they wont be fleeing to play other feature that wont have them lose their gear.
I love the phrase "Tough hardcore player", like they are gaming from the siberian tundra, wrestling bears between kills and building their gaming rigs from perma-ice and trees cut down with their teeth.
Im pretty sure the term came out due to the carebears that kick and scream because they lost their pixels. These kinds of games need to be labeled as such, so you know not join them.
This struck straight to the bone with me, regarding me experience in Eve Online. A few years back my friends and I, a group of about 5 of 6, started playing, built up our own little corp, and focused in on mining. It was a fun little thing to do with friends, and we were happy to have a little new hobby. About two weeks into our time with the game, a random corporation that we were sure was just one guy multiboxing, declared war on us, demanding a ransom to broker peace. We didn't have the money or resources, and we told him that, he didn't care. We decided that he probably wasn't even playing in the same time zone and carried on with our mining.Two days later he showed up and wiped all our mining vessels out with a fleet of five cruisers while we were having a nice chat in VC. We tried to fight back, got ganked again, and eventually tried joining a bigger corporation to protect us, but by the time that happened all of us had been burnt so bad we dropped the game entirely. That resonates so hard with the whole full loot hardcore pvp thing. It's what happens out of it. One dude gets jacked, then goes around punching new players as hard as he can in the face, and in this case then displaying their corpses as trophies, for the sake of punching new players in the face and making them feel bad enough to quit the game, full stop.
@@Urziel99 That doesnt actually change anything except provide more 'runway' for new players in the hopes they get hooked on the game before the curbstomp happens
@@scmrph Considering how much structures cost nowadays If you are fielding a structure that costs as much as a supercarrier you should be able to defend it beforehand. And if you can't or don't want to you can just use NPC stations or other public structures.
@@scmrph You're making the mistaken assumption that the end result of any player in EVE is getting "curbstomped." Yes, you'll die in EVE at some point, because everyone does. You'll be destroyed in PvP at some point, because everyone is. The fact is that EVE is a game that pretty much REQUIRES you to find a group and cooperate if you expect to survive anywhere outside of secure space, and that group needs to be strong enough to support you. That said, EVE's deeper structures are entirely player-run, and some of the biggest, most powerful corporations in the game are dedicated to providing a more casual, less PvP-oriented experience to their members, and they're typically free to join, thus if you don't want "hard core PvP" you don't need to deal with it.
The point about EVE is that it actually dilutes it's playerbase enough by it's size and zoning that PvP becomes a numbers game. It's about probabilities to get killed or find prey. It's highsec zone is reasonably safe enough for people mostly dodge PvP and it's hardcore PvP players are attracted by other zones. It technically is "full loot PvP" but in practice it consists of various niches for various kinds of players. And that is the only reason it is still around. The predators and the prey are swimming in a really really big pond.
The first MMO I ever played was Shade, a full loot mmorpg played on my phone. It was great fun, most of the time, but if you didn't get associated with a strong guild asap you were a hot target for your gear. I got chased around multiple times because I had "decent" gear and even got killed for crappy gear. I remember player killing with my friends and felt crappy about it, it wasn't a guild war or anything, we just targeted a guy in nice gear and surrounded him. I secretly pulled him aside in town and gave him a full set of really nice gear as an apology, better than what he had to begin with. He was super happy about it and said that he had been about to quit because he kept getting killed. I told him to get into a good guild and to grind with friends if possible. I know full well the frustration of getting pk'd repeatedly and I swore off the genre years ago because its terribly toxic. Never looked back.
you and your friends seem like good people. too many PvPers I've seen are aggressive and standoffish, always picking fights, always whining when a fight doesn't go their way,always bitching about how people who don't PvP aren't 'true players'
This. While not an MMO, Sea of Thieves is another title that suffers IMMENSELY from this problem. And I'm sure there's plenty more with similar issues, all stemming from overly-aggressive PvP gamers with superiority complexes.
Pretty much. Literally every game design decision done in the average full loot "hardcore" PvP is geared towards gankers, griefers and super toxic people and completely against new players. Thus, the toxic players stay, the new players leave, and boom, your game dies because you refuse to budge even a milimeter from your idiotic design decisions.
@@youtube-kit9450 The problem is that they are not idiotic design decisions from a financial pov. The griefers and toxic people are your walles. You want to catter to your walles you don`t care about the smallfish.
The Rust Paradox: Offline base raiding, no groups fighting each other, and players with sniper rifles killing new/recovering players who have nothing but a stick.
100%. I would enjoy PvP a zillion times more than I do if I didn't have to interact with the PvP community to do it. The fun in it for me is testing my build and my skill against someone else's. The fun in it for so many of them is in making their opponent's day as absolutely shitty as possible. They don't play FFA full-loot battle royale games, because killing people and taking their stuff is not enough; they don't have fun until they've made another human being feel *real emotional pain*, which they laugh at with a "GG EZ" and a teabag.
I remember playing Metin 2 as a young teen and being unable to leave the village a lot of times because some max level end game players from other faction have surrounded the safety zone of the village. Outside of your faction base you were always free to be attacked by players of the other factions even without permission. Which led to non end game players being unable to play at all. How do people even think that this may be an attractive game model? All that's gonna happen in Hardcore Full Loot PVP MMOs is that new players can do NOTHING. At some point new players will never be able to progress in the slightest as some guilds will fully control areas and kill any player daring to enter. It won't be an enjoyable game, it will be spawn camping, nothing else.
Because the hard-core pvp players enjoy bullying people weaker than they are. They don't care about the enjoyment of other players. They just like ganking noobs even if there's no material benefit because the act of asserting dominance over someone else is the reward. Literally sociopathic.
"It devolves into naked fights with wooden swords" this is the exact thing happening with EVE Online, players rarely use things bigger than a Cruiser to do PvP. Unless you got a big player bloc backing you, the Battlecruisers, Battleships, Marauders and Dreadnaughts are just there to PvE or Gank, most of the time they're too valuable to lose in a PvP for a lot of people
@@fXBorgmeister t1 battleships are, just avoid blinging out the fit. There is this major misconception among a lot of players that you need to spend massive amount of isk to be competitive, but knowing what your doing in a fight an fitting sensibly is viable.
I tried out EVE and realized its not worth playing when I did. Even the beginning zones were camped with griefers and I couldnt leave the base to try out things without getting blown out of the sky.
"You know what's the most fun about real life? It's the possibility of getting robbed and shank'd by some crackhead at every corner. That's the part that REALLY makes it exciting. That's what we need too reproduce in a video game. Except you can BE the crackhead if you want to!" -Full loot PVP MMO developers, probably
these games make no sense for me, i could understand if you wanted to be thief i guess, but hold that as root of your game, no just no, even Assassin's Creed got old
You do realize you just made our arguments for us right? This is equivalent to women buying 50 shades of gray etc. There's a big, thick line between fantasy roleplay and IRL.
Good point! And, maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't like the thought of truly ruining another player's day. That would make me just as sad as I would be when losing all of my own stuff in a game.
One thing more about those "hardcore pvpers" is... that many of them are not "gladiators" looking for challange, for good fight and struggle, but simply bullies (no better word is worth using here). They just WANT to stomp others, win, take their stuff, bully them. It is not about fight, it is about dominance for them and and soon as their prefered pray (casuals) disappear - they will also move on, not being able to handle those who are determined to fight back and won't give them those easy wins.
My personal experience in these types of games was that it was about 1/50 fights were actually close or exciting. Every other was a stomp one way or the other.
Of course they don't like the fight because if they did they'd spend all their time playing a fighting game which requires skill because everyone always starts each round at a fair and even point.
I think often what people fail to understand is that they do want a challenge/competition, but they don't want it to be during the fight. When we fight, we aren't really comparing whos better at fighting, but rather who has been better at playing the game so far and building up their character. When you stomp them its not really you beating them right now, but rather you and them comparing what you have each accomplished up to this point. Full loot hardcore permadeath type stuff is really just an attempt to fix the problem of the advantage long term players have over new ones by allowing people to be reset back to try again, building up a new character with what they learned during their previous run, but it isn't a very good solution in most implementations because developers rarely put an incentive for players to work together to take down the strongest players, rather it is safer to cooperate with them and be "safe" under their banner, rather than be attacked by them.
@@comradepoint very interesting point. I would still agree that this "solution" is terrible. If competition is moved to "preparation" stage, then it is test of time/money, more then sill - who grinded msot exp and gear? Out of many things we could call it - it is NOT fair. 2 sides are not starting at the same point. Ijust consider those games to be grind-competitions then. I wouldn't even say that lack of cooperation is an issue - this design is simply unsalvagable and propagate mostly terrible behaviors.
@@frontsquats Exactly. The combat in these kind of games is ass. It really comes down to player numbers and ability to grind like crazy. Grinding in order to compete is just a chore and it stops being fun. You can't do the things you want to because you're constantly worried some other clan will attack you. You also have to constantly maintains lookout and even when there is a lookout corralling the other players to repel an attack is rarely successful. I often take the night watch in such games and I'm usually there when an attack happens and no one ever comes when I start blaring warning to the rest of the clan and so it's usually me and 1 other guys fighting off 10 other players.
I remember playing PVP on a WoW PVP server back in the day when I stilled played and dealing with this. People will constantly migrate to the server or faction that has the higher numbers just to get that upper hands which constantly leaves the populations completely and utterly skewed to magnitudes I never thought I'd see (some WoW PVP servers recently have had Alliance or Horde factions of ~5% or less, while the other was ~95%)**. This leads to newer players wanting to try it out - or even just experienced or veteran players - having terrible levling experiences (Because you can't 6 v 1 a bunch of max lvl people when you're barely a third there.) or just not being able to find any groups willing to do anything or have any coordinated PVP events. So they either switch servers, or just, stop playing. The other side then complains that there is no one left to kill and the cycle continues. **After doing some research I found some fairly extreme examples of this. There are several PVP servers on WoW that are so unbalanced that they have minority faction populations of LESS than 1%. The worst server I could find has just 25 unique players on the opposing minority faction.
no, it depend on the deisgn fo the game. Eve online have over 500m sub and 8m player. And EvE is older than WoW. The reason thsoes game fail is because they are much more closer to survival skirmish game than actual MMO. Thus having an hardcore PvP aspect kind of KILLS it. It's like taking fornite and making it an mmo. a game that is fun is small skirmish and is all about surviving in a PvP environment will always fail as an MMO who require actual character progression. This is why EvE have such a unique design down to it's gameplay. It's not a flight sium because that would imply you have to no life the game just to be able to pvp (flight skills). Other mmo try to make it so that stat balance it out but that juts rewarding veteran, and on an hardcore pvp mmo: that's even worst because then you can just snowball like in agar.io were the biggets stay the biggest.
@@hassankadhim1996 depends on the game, in albion for example you could have crappy t4 gear and fight a fully geared t8 player and still win, if you know what you're doing and use the environment and mobs to your advantage.
The problem isn't that PvP sucks. It's that there is no punishment system that prevents constant ganking and griefing. Just look at real life, if you randomly go and kill someone on the street you'll go to jail. Most video games haven't implemented such systems so they end up as gankfests. That's it.
Hardcore players are a joke that keeps on giving. Tarkov is a prime example. They like to bully new players and they scoff at every suggestion that might help actually allow people to get a proper start in the game. They call new players names, camp spawns and steal all their low level bullshit gear they don't need and then all of a sudden players drop, queues shoot up into the double digits and then they're like "WhY gAmE dIe D:??!?!?! WaIt TiLl NeXt WiPe?!??!?!?!" No one wants to play a game to get ganked and griefed by sociopaths who would get thrown in prison if they did half the shit they do in those games in real life. I don't believe, at all, that the game has 300000 concurrent players. That's straight bullshit.
@@BullsMahunny the saving grace of Tarkov is that it absolutely can be played casually. Nothing's forcing you to do runs in gear that's too expensive for you to lose and you can do Scav runs. Exit camping, at least to me, seems much less prevalent than it used to be etc.
@@RichHeart89 you do understand. That isn't casual experience right?. Doing Scav runs, planning and avoiding threats and dangers to farm. Sort of defeats the purpose of the game to, while being ultra non casual friendly. A casual experience, would be logging in once or twice a week, playing for a couple hours, then calling it a day. If you had to spend time getting gud with bad gear, or foraging/farming gear so you can compete/train against better players. That isn't casual anymore. This is why games like COD, Halo, and later iterations of BF, for FPS games were successful. They are designed for casuals. You can pick up and play any time, with no hassle or worry about planning, strategy, or logistics to your account.
@@yummychips_ it CAN be played casually .A Game that cant be played mindlessly doesnt mean that its a game that casuals can't get into. The game punishes you for playing like a dumbfuck or being to much of a cheapskate on ammo if you go in a highly contested area
I loved the principle of Tibia, where there is PvP, but if you kill someone, you get marked as a Player-killer for maybe about half an hour. In this time, everyone can attack you without the repercussion of getting this mark themselfes, which sometimes led to a manhunt on you, because people wanna have the items from you and the person you murdered. Especially, when the game has spells, which allow you to find a specific player, it could evolve to bounty hunts. Since it was very dangerous to murder players, it didnt happened often, but you always had to be wary, that it could happen, especially when doing stuff far away from towns and other players, where people could risk being an outlaw for some minutes. So it wasnt just a senseless "kill everything around you", it was like in real society, where you can score big robbing someone, but it puts you in great danger.
@@thehuntermikipl1170 The change is that if you kill somebody, you become a target of anyone else, and a free one at that. You get the gear of the one you killed, but good luck holding it when anyone else can kill you without consequence. Your consequence is being a public target
My time is valuable. I refuse to have that “time” physically looted from my body. I agree that it has its place. Expecting a WoW or 14 level of a FFA Full loot MMORPG is delusional though.
Yea I agree with you mostly...but I have helped people before only to have them come up quick and become a major nuisance for everyone else in the area. This has happened multiple times and sadly it discouraged me from helping any naked player
No, this is hardcore. Because at first they grief you, but you could endure it, overcome it, and after that you started grief others. And not whining like a girls - "they kill me, they kill me", take courage, a rag :D
@@ayoheynns1327 Nah fam, I'll just stick to actual Hardcore PvP games like SC2, where as I get better so do my opponents and the game is skill based versus gear based. The true hardcore PvPers are the players who fight enemies who know they're coming and stand a chance, or fight in an arena where everyone there knows what they signed up for and there are no surprises. Its skill versus skill. Everything is just griefing and griefing is for no skill bitches.
Just as "The casual demographic tend to be hostile and insulting to any PvP player" as seen in this video where apparently every full loot player is grouped up and represented by the worst of them.
>Revel in ruining other people's enjoyment >Nobody wants to play with you anymore >Gets called aggressive and confrontational >Wonder why everyone is so toxic to them
@@Methillo The funny thing is, im usually mainly a crafter/supporter type of character in these games and so im often the victim so its kinda hilarious to be put into the griefer box. I just see the importance of PvP to keep the game from getting boring after a few weeks or however long it takes when the PvE content gets repetitive. I also like when there is a 'reason' for doing something, crafting a bunch of armor or weapons only to sell them to a NPC or basically for a loss on the material costs in a AH doesnt really make sense to me, why bother? Especially when every player is likely to just craft their own stuff anyway! I want to craft stuff that people use, even if that means there is full loot PvP and the stuff I make is more often than not just "Generic Sword #12". Its a good feeling being needed and appreciated, something I think drives a lot of crafters even if they dont admit it or perhaps even realize it but I doubt there is a single crafter that would prefer a game where only their close friends or random guild mate only now and then requests something to be made over a game that has a active player economy and they can actually sell their stuff because people use it. All that said, I do think these games fail because they are too open with their PvP, it still needs to have a basic structure like faction/s to keep everyone from going paranoid and stop Dayz syndrome from developing. There need to be fairly large groups of people you KNOW you can trust for the open world PvP to not spiral completely out of control.
@@TheHuffur I mean they do have a reason to, if you get griefed by a PvP player, it's not absurd to be paranoid of other PvP players too. It would be weirder if they weren't paranoid.
At least 90% of my PvP encounters in games have involved a player that was a much higher level griefing and/or camping a low level player that has no way to even make a dent in them. Then, when someone shows up that could possible take them, the supposed 'hardocre PvPer' runs off into the distance. I typically don't pick fights when on PvP servers, live and let live but I will say it was satisfying to camp the campers. I've chased people across zones just killing them over and over again without mercy after they spent who knows how long doing the same to myself and/or others. I did get into fight with players around my own level (and really enjoyed it), but that was far fewer than either being the subject of someone's bored afternoon as a campee, or pursuing someone who had destroyed someone else's afternoon (either by camping them or killing all the NPC's in a supposedly safe zone so they couldn't even start playing the game). I do want to make clear that I have zero issues with a kill and done policy some players have where a higher level moves on after one-shotting a low level. It's also one of the reasons I just have no desire to play on PvP servers now - there isn't any real world PvP, it's just the strong taking advantage of whoever they can find who's weaker than them, and then scurrying off when a real fight arrives. And if no one is there to help them, there's a good possibility that the player being griefed is just going to log and not come back, effecting the future of the game as a whole. Full loot PvP has zero charm for me - I can't see the benefit from it, only a magnification of the cycles I've already seen over the years, not to mention the idea of spending hours getting an item only to be looted by someone I had no hope of beating. That only seems like frustration and lack of investment over time. There's a risk/reward ratio and then there's just a stacked deck and most of these environments seem to favor the stacked deck. The people who I've met that push for these types of games don't think they'll be at the bottom of the pecking order. Nope, in their minds they'll be at the top taking from everyone else. I'm sure there's a minority who are different (I personally do like PvP in theory) but it's not great enough to stop the game from bleeding players as PvPers cannibalize their own playerbase just to feel powerful. And then when the game/server types dies, people actually bitch about not having PvP anymore. Whose fault do you think that is? Maybe not griefing people into uninstalling an hour in because you're an asshole and helping to build your community would lengthen the life of your own playtime. But nope - it's grief till they quit, points on if you think you made them cry. The whole thing breds a terrible toxic attitude, which is a shame, because there are good things that come from a PvP game world.
This is so true. Albion online… First few hours of hard grinding.. and my friend who introduced me to the game, took me to Avalon,, where we were camped by a full built ganker who we had no chance to even leave a scratch on, chased us till the end of the map quite literally, killed me with one blow,(well my friend escaped coz he was smarter i guess) took all of my hours worth of stuffs and laughed in the chat after. I was about to rage quit after that. I play ONLY gathering in albion after that because I dont want to raid others and make them feel as awful as I did nor do i wish to throw all my hours’ work into some lesser-brained ganker’s inventory because if that happens again I would definitely delete that game without a second thought.. And people wonder why those games are not “as popular”
dunno. Haven't really seen that. To be fair, most of my MMO PvP experience is just from WoW. I've played dedicated PvP games, but that's different. Rather the opposite: In classic WoW some people were getting really salty that there wasn't enough PvP. Players played like I do: live and let live. You see a hostile farming mobs, you leave them alone. Neither one of you needs more drama and time sinks. Griefing only leads to more griefing in a blood feud between players. When there was a griefer, people would inform others and look for a high level player to take them down. Usually a situation that resolved itself since the griefer had to deal with someone who was actually good at the game and on the same level. I think this is a weird syndrome in games without enough players. I played retail WoW where you don't have open world PvP. I tagged myself in for it and got killed by every passing player since I was the only target they had.
I can sympathise with full loot. I don't see the appeal at all. Runescape has a sensible variation of it where you will keep valuable items and lose other stuff. It's still too much risk for me, personally. I've played Reign of Kings which was a full loot game. Not an MMO, though. Gear took about 5 minutes to set up. Hard part was unlocking the prerequisites for it (get wood to mine rocks, use rocks to mine iron). I didn't really PvP, but saw people organising fights. Inexpensive gear means you can suit up and pick fights with people while managing your losses. The more expensive the gear, the less interesting it becomes. Case in point: In that same game the killing blow for my friend group was when someone hacked the server and deleted our fort. Building that one actually took a lot more time than crafting a shirt, pants and a pointy stick. Nobody started the game again. Everyone uninstalled.
@@Wyzai Sorry, didn't see your reply till now. When I talk about WoW PvP I'm talking about the OG PvP servers that I actually started playing on back in 2007. All of the behavior I mentioned in my comment is based on my experiences playing on that server along with the actions of players on PvE servers. Back when I started, you joined a guild in part for protection. Anything outside of the first two zones per race for your faction were PvP, meaning you were flagged to any level of the other faction. There wasn't a choice. Camping low level 5 mans was a huge thing back in the day and corpse crawling into a dungeon portal wasn't uncommon, especially for the more remote ones. It is was a very rare event that I was ever attacked by someone close to my level. Due to a lot of factors, including server/faction transfers that Blizzard originally said they would never offer, Ally on my original server died. Our AH was only a couple of pages long, period. As I considered my original toons PvP, I choose to reroll on a PvE server to not have this happen again. There, I saw high level players flag themselves and stand in low level player's AoE to try to get flagged to gank them along with repeatedly killing quest hub NPC's to stop progression. I can't count the number of times I was just flying through a zone and getting a whisper from some poor leveling person asking me for help. And as soon as I showed up, guess what - the higher level griefer fled or ran after I killed them once. I can say that players on the original PvP servers became bitter if they experienced a lot of ganking/camping without help and tended to do the same to new/leveling players as a form of "payback", continuing the whole cycle. Classic players tend to remember things with rose color glasses, like how the large scale world battles only happened because there were no BGs originally, or how when PvP was implemented into Classic, a lot of PvP servers struggled to maintain balanced population because that became a quit moment due to severe griefing/camping for many players. PvP in general is going to be a different animal in Classic vs OG WoW. Most will have a live and let live attitude because people just want to get things done. I like a lot of aspects with the ideas of PvP. Even to this day, I still get twitchy in certain areas, like as Ally going down the road in Duskwood because that was such a huge spot for us on my server. I feel like it created a lot of strong bonds and I miss having things like guild bounties. But there's a reason why PvP servers became so completely unbalanced - no one wants to be on the side they think is weaker. And CRZ drove the final nail in as the system just meshed people together so we wouldn't feel "lonely" without any mind to the factions. Nothing like being in a zone suddenly surrounded by over a dozen max level Horde players on a server where the /who list for your faction barely hits fifty at times. I rerolled to PvE (though I did play some on my old sever) right when the gates to ICC were opening to even have a chance to raid at that point (not to mention getting into the portal to begin with due to multiple Horde guilds camping it made even worse by the quest phasing there). WoW was at its all time high - there wasn't a lack of players, there was lack of players who were willing to be somewhere that they even had a chance of losing once.
"hardcore Full Loot PVP MMO's" has evolved in the Battle royal genre. it remove the bad part of loose lot of hours of progresse, and improve the good part of have lot of interesting PvP fight.
I love(d) Last Oasis. It's a hardcore MMORPG. Me and my clan were having a grand old time, then we got rolled by a bigger clan. They had to use a lot of rare materials to do the damage they did to us, which was meant to be the dissuasion from doing it. But they were so big and bored that rolling people was the only fun they had in the game. I lost everything I'd worked for up until that point and had to completely change the way I played the game, I never enjoyed the game like I did before that point. I stopped playing for months then came back at a new season. After playing a couple of hours I had a nice little base set up, but sure enough like the big kids kicking sandcastles at the beach, I was attacked. I managed to escape. But I was just left thinking, why bother?
First month of Last Oasis was the best MMO-PvP experience I've had in my life. And then inflation happened. Nothing really mattered when amount of resources in circulation was enough to last 100 years of constant worldscale pvp.
Yeah I tried this zombie world game once. Installed it, logged in, made my character ... and as soon as I entered the world I was almost instantly killed with a headshot from a sniper. No worries I respawn. Headshot again. And again. And again. Then I uninstalled the game. That was my experience with full PvP MMo's
Stupid lame skill less spawn killers, they exist in any game that has pvp elements unfortunately, even in fps games. For me playing those games I would generally only engage a player if they engaged me first, zero reward for killing someone who has just spawned in and doesn't even have worthwhile gear to loot.
Yeah I don't mind playing games that are hardcore and lose all the time but to get killed at the point where normal games have their tutorial sessions is just dumb.
@@dunxy the upside of shooter that it us round to round basis so even if they are spawn killing in the next game there will be none on an mmorpg its not
After 23 years of MMORPGs I can say that people that call themselves hardcore pvpers are actually cowards with average or poor skills that hide in groups of friends of better gear to grief people who are not looking for a fight and are not prepared for it. The classic "hardcore pvper" is a griefer with 2 friends who ambushes a gatherer or someone fighting a mob.
In Archaege the true hardcore players only attack farmers and traders. Than when own a ship, the have the most fun in destroying it. When there came safe zones for the casual players, the hardcore players became very toxic in the forums making it very casual unfriendly for especially younger player. Glitches where use to destroy carts and houses. The moderators responded very slow to gamebreaking glitches. I finally left after the great overhaul changing everything you were used to as a trader.
This is basically what kinda killed the game Conan Exiles. Farm stuff for weeks and lose it in few hours after getting raided by a huge endgame gear clan, or start the game, build your first base and get raided by a huge endgame gear clan
@@nukecorruption Yeah, I really, REALLY liked the idea of an online game based in the Conan universe but...I either spent days doing boring tasks or getting raided by some random asholes which...yeah that's sort of in the spirit of the harsh world of the Conan universe but that doesn't really make things any more enjoyable.
I'm, a filthy casual myself, and I don't do PvP even in regular MMOs, mostly because I simply can't put in the sort of grind to be competitive in PvP for IRL reasons. An MMO where I perma-loose everything every time I die? No thanks. That'd be way to demotivating and frustrating to me.
Same here. I've dabbed in PvP in WoW and ESO and it was fun-ish for a short time because I was with a bunch of guildies with a common goal, but it was never enjoyable outside of that. I prefer PvE story, exploration, crafting, collection, etc.
@@nathan43082 Case in point, it was only fun cause you were doing it with friends. The minute the friends left so did the fun. MMO's generally suck for pvp to begin with, pvp is generally only cooperative to a point and MMO's work best when cooperation is at it's max.
@@kerenton5897 Items are not "lost." They are transferred from one character to another in this situation. The incentive to craft does not increase, it just moves from the taker to the takee.
I crowdfunded Legends of Aria and was so excited to play.. logged on.. got ganked by a team of 5 red player killers, lost all my stuff.. never been back. A fair fight and a challenge is one thing, ganking is another entirely.
and thats the point, nobody likes loosing, so ganking and higher lvl farming lower lvl is what happens similar did happen in battle star galactica online game, was actually fun...for the part that anywhere pvp, i was always looking as lvl 10 agains lvl 300...was fun...
This is what happens when these Devs that want to make "EVE on ground" don't actually check how EVE does things. It's possible to make one but you have to go around it in a right way - though it'll still stay as a niche game.
I might be made of different stuff than...cuz one of my favorite things to do as a solo/ duo is to piss off large clans, sometimes I break in and steal stuff from their furnaces, sometimes I just Chuck rocks at the windows and doors until someone comes out so my friend can blast them from the side, grab the loot and run
Thing is this type of game incentivize that behaviour, would you bet your entire loot and hours spend getting it in an even fight? No you wouldn't and even if you did you'd eventually lose and resource to that kind of behaviour.
Actually had a similar thought. With this video and the comment from Ashwynn Newkirk I was thinking, "Well, what if the game wasn't an MMO, but instead a single round in a Battle Royal?" Fixes the issue of permanently loosing something you've spent hours grinding for because you're going to permanently lose the item when the match is over anyways and it's not going to take you hours of grinding to get the item, but it will take effort and planning to achieve it (and perhaps a bit of luck depending on the Battle Royal). With permadeath and losing your gear it still has a bite to it, that feeling of, "Well shit," while the winning player gets your items and might get an upgrade for the next player they have to fight. Plus, with Battle Royals it also fixes the issue of the top dogs avoiding each other because they *have* to come into contact with each other eventually. Someone has to win.
@@divinkitty9452 Very cool elaboration on this topic. And if player wants a more hardcore battle royale, there's escape from tarkov where you actually can lose your gear on death, probably one of the reasons why this game is seeing its current success.
this can work, an mmorpg battle royale where there's a time limit on the server and there will still be punishment for PKs(like getting imprisoned for ? month and all your items confiscated by the bounty hunter) but there should be items that can make the PKer able to hide his karma points(or hire a PKer or manipulate someone to PK your target) and those who got PKed will be eliminated until the next server restart or go to a different server, there will still be GvG and castle defense and the last man standing will win something in the real world or a nice permanent tradable skin(this can be like an NFT when I think about it lol) or a mount but what if your whole guild get to have the last players left in the server? I think guilds can organize tournament themselves or they can go battle royale on each other and tag team the strongest in their guild
word to Eternal Return; basically this. drop in, gather and craft equipment, fight for resources, kill other players to level up and get their rare gear + mats
PvP games in which you die, get up and get back fighting again are way more fun. The threat of losing all your progress or getting punished for fighting just makes people cowardly bastards.
Yeah, you don't have to convince me. I have *zero* interest in "hardcore full loot PvP MMOs". Absolutely none. Why? Because gaming is something I do for fun. To relax after work. And having to worry about losing everything I've been working towards at all times *is not fun*
@@gagne6928 I think there's a difference between Rouge likes and MMOs though; specifically, you can build up a lot more in an MMO before losing it all than in a Rouge like. Especially if the MMO also has grinding mechanics; I don't think most Rouge likes make you farm a boss 20 times in a row to get a sword or weapon. A Rouge like will get you right back in the action; an MMO will take much longer if you lose all your stuff.
As someone who has played a number of open world PvP with varying levels of full loot, mostly because I liked their other systems (Rappelz, perfect world, Granado Espada, Rallos Zek etc.) the game very quickly became a fight between the big guilds and other big guilds and/or whales and their guilds. Everyone else in those guilds was a predator and anyone not was the prey. So your choice was either to only do things in large groups, or spend thousands of dollars. Especially fun when there was cash shops that let you purchase items to avoid dropping anything, so even if you took down the whales you got nothing out of it.
You are correct. "hardcone full-loot mmo" aka "Ganking mmo"...is fun if you are the tops dogs ganking everyone else. Everyone else quickly leave the game.
Yeah, hflmmo is not about a fun fight is about killing in anyway necessary. We'd do that in tibia all the time there were always full blown wars but we'd always use any mechanic we could to just ruin the enemies experience. Ganking while they were grinding, even syncronizing logins to ambush players it was fun not gonna lie, but it eventually dies out.
bingo. The problem is trolling, ironically, requires a consenting partner. I can withdraw my consent to be trolled by simply logging out and leaving. Enough people do that and you end up with a game where it's not even worth being a troll anymore because you're not getting any reward, heck you're not even really getting any game play. It takes a pretty sad and desperate person to log in consistently every day hoping one new person finds out about your game from reddit or a youtube video, downloads it and makes an account, just so you can go blast them and teabag their corpse. Then the guy says "wow, the video was right this game does suck" and because they have almost no emotional investment at that point, uninstalls.
The thing about "hardcore" MMO's always die out for the most avoidable reason: player frustration. A large part of this is because of a purposely-designed system of large power gaps that will ALWAYS reward those who abuse, exploit, or just mindlessly grind the game 12 hours a day. Full-loot combat systems don't anger players just because they lose everything on death: it's because skill, in the end, will never be enough to ensure you "win". New World is a perfect example of why how a combat system that is presented as "hardcore" yet "fair", is purposely designed to encourage zergs. This is because the loot, in the end, isn't the point of a full-loot MMO: it's the false sense of superiority you get from being allowed to grief anyone you want, however you want, as long as you're more powerful. As far as solo players are concerned, consider this: by the time you're able to easily beat someone in an open 1v1, you're clearly already past the point of wanting the gear they have, so it's essentially just needless robbery for whatever money, potions, etc. they may have. It's borderline malicious, and exactly the kind of audience "hardcore pvp-focused" MMO's are intended for.
heh. In the days of MUDs and such, it was a thing. Servers that had that feature though tended to not last very long. But yeah.. if you died by a player's hand, the account was autodeleted and you had to create a new one.
In eve it actually already happend. That's the reason they added newby protection in specific places, because some playersenjoyed nothing more than killing newbros in starting place.
in games like Last Chaos where dying makes you lose like 20% of your total earned exp, it was definitely possible to de-level and thus be essentially self-deleted
It is sort of a thing on some minecraft servers e.g. HCF, you get banned like 3 days when you die. I guess technically also a core feature of One Hour One Life
You know that meme made by Owlturd/Shen Comix where a *pink slime tries to go outside of his box* and then get punched so hard, it becomes even more introverted with a thicker box encasement? Yeah that's why.
This was my experience in Albion in a nutshell. "Hmm, the materials I need to progress further into my learning tree have to be obtained from PvP enabled zones. I'll just go to this dungeon with a couple guildmates..." (Party of fully armed players just stomps us all and I lose the tools I brought with me) "Never again" (Uninstalls)
Meanwhile Guild Wars 2 is just like "Well, I'll just go kill some time in the Battlefield while I wait for the new season to drop. I can drop out any time and as long as I make myself a tiny bit useful I'll gain some merits without losing anything I have on me, so why not"
@@ZorotheGallade True story gw2 pvp is the only pvp ive ever actually enjoyed. Being on even playing field armor wise and having all skills and trees available is the most player friendly pvp ive seen and it doubles in usefulness for low lvl players who want to know what their class abilities will be when they hit 80 and practice on dummies.
@@ZorotheGallade I get it. You don't like to lose. When I play I treat it more like an adventure with friends and if we lose we lose that time. Next time we play we can try something else and have a different experience.
Best pvp I have had has not been in hard core games, it actually discourages pvp. Games were death means little encourages you to risk bad fights, going against 40 people with 10 is an epic fight and occasional winning vs these numbers is epic, but full loot I would never do this fight.
yes the pk also risks losing everything though they usually team up and attack solo players. I think the difference is the way games treat gear. If you got ambushed and lost a legendary gear set that is devestating but if the gear is basically generic and easy to come by you just go back to your bank or house and get another set. At most 20 minutes of lost time and you can also have fun hunting Pk players. It does suck for new players though as they don't yet have spare gear. That is why there are usually noob areas where you can play safely.
best pvp in the open world i can remember was back years ago in deepholm in WoW on my alt shaman and me and a horde ended up doing multiple duels we both won 1 time each and after many near death one of my best pvp memories
I would actually love a game that's mostly MMO co-op PvE, but at any point in the game another group can walk up to your group and issue a fair challenge with a prize pot at stake, or within your group anyone can call for a duel. An advanced system, not something archaic like in Fallout 76. *How to make it fair?* - Each player has a "challenge rating" attached to them which goes to determine how much the stakes are in favour of one or the other side. The less fair a fight, is the more the side with the advantage needs to put in the prize pot in proportion to what the other added and the less reputation/exp/dogecoin they're awarded, such can go in the negatives; - Factions in the game sponsoring you will encourage playing at a disadvantage or with a handicap by offering an additional bonus; - Challenges can be ignored at a small price in reputation and the amount lost is also weighted by challenge rating down to nothing if the challenger is way too strong and definitely out just to bully you; - Spam prevention is offered through a cooldown system in the frequency you can issue challenges and a group or individual can be challenged, the size of the maps and the "any time at any point" not including large hubs; - Challenges can be friendly with no stakes and those can be issued at a much lower cooldown. Another option would be to make a game which has an open pvp portion, but said portion isn't presented through guns and blades, rather _market warfare_ : raiding convoys and caravans, mass buyouts, information gathering, espionage and sabotage and hiring goons and grunts to protect your assets while managing your notoriety as to not get raided by the equivalent of invincible town guards if you're too efficient. Players can opt in to taking a 'boots to the ground' role in said market warfare, taking part as one of the individuals doing the various errands, either playing as a predetermined grunt for higher difficulty but lower personal stakes, or as themselves with higher stakes but presumably lower difficulty due to the better gear. Tasks can be scheduled so you can say trigger a convoy raid while you're offline so the world keeps moving and changing and other people will always find a challenge in bringing down your Tycoon, instead of being something like Rust or Conan Exile where your base can almost be considered inert and completely at the mercy of the enemy when you're logged off, because turrets are a joke.
but with full loot you fight harder, youre fighting to keep everything you have on you. Try out Vigor or Badlanders theyre looter shooter battle royales. Theyre kind of what hardcore full loot MMORPGs are like.
@@TheKrid44 One of mine was in WoW too lol. right before Cross Roads, my buddy and i were coming back from an exotic pet gathering expedition. from the corner of our eyes we see something very odd... a Human in way better gear than us, we actually tried to avoid him, but he came at us... So being hunters, 2 low levels (a blood-elf and a troll) vs 1 high level human turned into 2 low levels and 2 rare OP pets against 1... we started by sending everything we had at him lol. he attempted to flee, but we gave him the chance to walk away already... he used every thing he had to give himself some leeway on us, popping potions and skills left and right, while my buddy was running a direct line behind him in a way distracting him and keeping him locked in battle, i broke away to mount up and head him off... he never saw it coming.
I remember back in the day (200...8-ish, I think? Pretty sure it was either before, or just after, Bethesda had bought the IP) an American/Russian partnership of Fallout fans managed to cobble together a multiplayer FO game by kitbashing FO1, FO2, and some netcode together. It went live at 9am (my local time), and was pretty fun and enjoyable. Then, around 1PM, a group of people from a certain Fallout fansite were made admins of the American server, and by about 4PM, it was basically unplayable for a normal player. Why? Because those "fans" didn't think it was hardcore enough. All the stuff said in this video about "not destroying dungeons so other people can't use it", and "not making it so hard to get equipment that no one bothers", and "not killing players so hard that their character deletes itself"? Yeah, they did ALL of that. In a matter of hours. First they made it so you lost all your equipment upon death. Then they made it so you lost _XP_ on death. Then they made it so that dying put you back to level 1, no matter what level you were when you died. THEN, finally, they made it to where if you died too many times, you respawned in a literal kill box, surrounded on all sides with massive turrets that would fire on anything that moved inside the box, insuring that you could NOTHING BUT die. These same people were also the ones standing at the entry point of every town on the map, kitted out in full power armor and armed with gatling lasers, mowing down any low-level player who happened to dare to enter town, of course. Then they wondered why no one wanted to play the game they spent so long working on.
I don't think there is an argument against your point. The evidence is overwhelming. The most popular MMOs, BY FAR, are not PvP focused or "hardcore" but a healthy dose of PvE with PvP as well. Most people don't go to a game for it to act like real life where you can get screwed at every turn. That's fun sometimes, but for most people it's not fun for a long time.
The point is, PvP is supposed to be something extra you do for the accomplishment of it or some optional rewards. If PvP, it is a playstyle FORCED upon you. Even if you were the most competitive-minded player, even if you ate and drank and breathed PvP and absolutely love the "thrill" of having a fight waiting for you behind literally any corner...there is no opting out. In a good game, if you feel like doing PvP when you're doing PvE you can just pop into an arena or a PvP zone and scratch that itch. What would a PvP player do in one of these hardcore games if they just...felt like NOT PvPing one day? The answer is Not Play, since he does NOT have an option to NOT be a competitive PvPer.
Well... if I wanted to play real life, I wouldn't be playing games at all. Devs need to understand that realism is good but to a certain point. At the end of the day, it's a game and players will always find a way to exploit mechanics, be efficient, etc. That's why even in real life there are systems that prevent these things lol
@@Anonymous-ek2rh According to SteamCharts, Albion does an average of 9k over 30 days. Final Fantasy 14 does 38k. Elder Scrolls Online hits 20k. I mean, the evidence is clear. Non-PVP focused MMOs do better. As a feature, PvP is great and I think if you want to be a top MMO it's one that should be part of the game in some capacity. As for the loot, I personally would not enjoy either getting or losing good loot in that way. But I would just avoid the PvP in a game I otherwise liked if the PvP were set up that way. PvP is the last thing I start doing in an MMO. That's why I haven't played Albion. lol
@@Anonymous-ek2rh the only thing that hard disliked about albion is that the server is in the US. As an asian its what made me stop playing because I lost some fights where it was latency issues
@@Anonymous-ek2rh Only reward i need from PvP is the death threats and other insults from opponents, it feels really good when someone is so furious they starts to spew insults via private messages :3
@@jonathansoko1085 a cash shop makes even less sense in this type of game. no one is gonna buy anything for their inventory if there is a constant risk of immediately lose it. and if you go the route of "buy this to prevent player looting" you just lost the core of your game loop and your "game" if you can evne still call it that, is now hobo simulator..
The biggest problem with the hardcore PvP crowd is that they always cannibalize each other. There is an old adage in EvE Online that goes "You haven't won until your enemy has quit playing", and that's absolutely true. The only way to ever really win in a PvP MMORPG is to frustrate your opponent so much that they stop playing. It's the only game genre where this applies.
I pulled out on EVE after learning of the "Never fly what you can't afford to lose" motto the hard way. And I really liked my new mining rig that I managed to earn. :(
Even just the insanely hostile way that hardcore PvP MMO players speak and act outs them as the bullies they really are. There's so many other kinds of PvP game but you never hear stuff like "carebear" from those players no matter how good they are. Want a fair fight? Carebear. You think getting ganked and having all your shit stolen for hours at a time isn't fun? Carebear. Wait, where are you going? Come back so we can kill you more. Fucking carebears can't handle our hardcore game. Damn where is everybody? They say they like the competitive and risk/reward aspects but then they spend hours camping some low level player who can't fight back even though the game gives them absolutely nothing for it. They're not PvPers, they're griefers who want a griefing game so they can grief. That's the highest form of entertainment to them, making other people miserable and angry. Small wonder that MMOs based around bullying other people into quitting don't last long. It's a game genre that caters specifically to psychos. Then the most pathetic part is once all their victims have left and there's no one weaker to pick on, they become the prey for players who are stronger than them and end up folding in the same way. They don't like getting ganked and camped and griefed either, they just like doing it to others.
@@VideogamesPang I myself don't do PvP, but logic dictates that they're the minority. I doubt you're dumb enough to believe every EVE player is a bully as an example, the ones that are, are just the loudest.
@@VideogamesPang lol I was just in the steam discussions page for eve and that exact scenario unfolding there right now. Bunch of people showting "carebear" at the slightest provocation like some sort of triggered SJWs 😂😂😂 Tbf though I feel like eve doesn't bear the full brunt of what is discussed in this video, because there is a lot of pve activities to do. I played for just over 100 hours so far and only got attacked like once by another player. Admittedly, that is a relatively small amount of time.
It's sadly true. I enjoy open-world PVP because I enjoy that feeling of danger in the open world but most games I've played you find that folks rush to high levels and then camp the newbies until they quit as if that's even remotely logical for the health of a game your spending money on.
Really, all you have to do is look back to the MMO guidebook: Bartle's Taxonomy. Full loot, hardcore PVP MMOs appeal overwhelmingly to the Killer personality type. Killers are only countered by Explorers but explorers aren't interested in hardcore full loot PVP MMOs. So you're not pulling in Explorers to counteract your Killer glut. Achievers HATE Killers, so they're kept away. Without these other two then the Socializers will only have the small cross section of Socializers who find the social aspects of PVP builds interesting. So you are literally appealing to only one kind of player, and actively keeping away most of the other kinds. These kind of games might be fun to the niche, but they do not draw in new blood.
From what I've seen, the type of player who enjoys this kind of PvP-everywhere MMO, the main thing they like about it is basically having the power to make someone else quit the game. There are endless competitive game genres, but they're not interested in PvP games which enforce a level playing field. They want to be able to one-shot and corpse camp some helpless newbie until they log out. That's the experience this player is looking for, that's what they think is fun: griefing. Then they wonder why their games die. Maybe Mr Hayes here isn't saying this kind of game is bad, but I'll go ahead and say that any game which explicitly caters to psychopathic bullies is definitely not good.
@@Yepmyaccount Shocker. Carebears who cower in fear of the thought of out wtting something other than pre programmed A.I(oh the horror!....actual real competion/challenge!), also cower in fear over something with a 98% survival rate. Would it be a stretch to assume ur non binary and vegan as well?
“Above all, video games are meant to just be one thing: Fun for everyone.” -When you need to ruin a player's day to give other player some joy you're essentially dooming your design to fail
Why are you quoting that? You know it was you who said it. and on top of that, not all games appeal to all people. Trying to appeal to everyone leaves you with a mass of goo that only appeals to people that only like goo. Trying to appeal to everyone can leave your core fan (or who wouldve been a core fan had you not been unwilling to take the risks) estranged. Is Risk bad just because it doesnt appeal to every Monopoply player? No. Its just different, fully realized and therefore will never be as popualar outside of its core fanbase, who will adore it for its originality.
@@BusinessPlot You are taking his comment too literally. MMO's are video games, games are supposed to be fun. When you adopt a game design that is not fun to all but a very small number of people don't be shocked when you only have a very small number of players. That's his point.
@@DKarkarov fun is subjective, some people don't really mesh well with pvp, some people like it, some people play it to gank, some play it to overcome challenges, some are just masochistic. it really depends on the player.
@@BusinessPlot you want to see how a niche game almost screwed itself over. Look at Tarkov. EFT in the current wipe to slow down the no life chads increased the unlock of the market to level 20. Meaning a level 10 had no access to sell their goods or purchase better gear for their character. Meaning if they lost every kit they went into, they were fucked with no means of replacing that gear. This lead to a bit of a outcry of the casual base (those who had less than 30 hours to invest into the game) forcing Nikita to adjust the level at a later time. However what made players stay was the Scav Karma system. This allowed casual players to play as a non faction scav with a RNG kit. Since the Karma system effected how other NPC scavs and area bosses interacted with you. This actually made scav raiding fun as players who went in as scavs teamed up to fight PMC players who were better geared. Pvp MMOs with full loot systems run counter to fun. A player can easily go play a FPS, a fighting game or any other type of competitive game and get a far better experience than playing a pvpmmo where griefing and ganking is pretty much the norm.
@@metagen77 Final fantasy 14, a boring skinner box has 24 million subs. What's that? that's the sound of your argument bursting into useless flames around your 15k open world pvp game. *Clown*
@@IShallCallHimTaders Next you will tell me all about how great 50shades is, it's a bestseller after all. Hey want to know THE ultimate game with the most players and profit ever? Lottery tickets. Fn idiots.
@@metagen77 first you say pve games are unpopulated dead skinner boxes. Now if it's popular it's only for idiots and sheep. You must be a blast at Thanksgiving. Get off my feed you pedantic mope, I have nothing to gain from knowing you.
This reminded me of Dark Age of Camelot in 2003. A new open PvP server went online so I decided to roll a new character on it. As I spawned into the newbie area, a 10-ish level character from my own faction was there gleefully destroying all new characters who arrived. I sat and watched the individual do this for a while, realizing there would be no reason to join a team for realm vs realm on the server if your own teammates would gank you.
I don't recall anything like that in my time on DAoC. In fact I specifically remember getting a "You cannot attack a member of your realm." whenever I'd accidentally toggle on combat. You could challenge players to a duel but I've never seen someone indiscriminately killing players of their own realm.
Just went and read the PVP server ruleset and you were right. You can attack any player of any realm, just not party or guild members That's retarded. I get why those servers were dead even when the game was at its height.
This would be the Time of Andred and Mordred for PvP servers. For Mordred, I knew and were friends with the Heaviest Hitters in the game. Cottoncandycannon The Warlock (My Best Friend irl), Demolitionman The Warlock, Xavokal The Necromancer, Rollindabones The Bonedancer, Crawdad the Animist, and the list goes on. RvR for the 3 realms was crazy enough, but on the PvP Servers besides the main cities in Albion being Camelot, Hibernia being Tir Na Nog, and Midgard being... I forget the name haha! Other than that, every Town and open world area was fair game. Pwydwen Keep and the Bridge was always insane, as well as Outside Cotswold. I loved every minute of it, because you could put the enemies on a Friends list, level up, then see if they are online and go kill them once you caught up to 50 and had Gear. Buffbots were hard to come by, you could buff up but would need an insane hiding spot, as many people would find them, Kill them, and it's free Realm Points. Such a Catch 22 yet so good in the right ways.
I played Albion for nearly 2 months and it was actually funny seeing players being proud for killing you while you were GATHERING and they just ganked you with a few more friends, people being toxic for killing you 4v1.. its just sad. I know this is the way these games are supposed to be, but imo you can try to have both and try to balance, because at the end of the day most players work and have a regular life (work, family etc) and its hard to lose everything you worked for a week by some randoms ganking people, thats not even a fair fight. In the case of Albion my only problem was higher tier gatherables being only avaiable in full loot zones and that made me quit the game.
Lol, your comparision fails tho. IRL, you don't respawn. with a bank that you can still use. In a full loot mmo, ppl have gotten used to taking an hour worth of stuff to grind all the way to the bank in order to have nothing to lose. So, say RL was a full loot game and you work 8 hours a day. It wouln't be smart to work 8 hours a day without visiting the bank once per hour. Because if you die and you lose all of your 8 hour worth of money made, than that's really your fault for not creating an assurance pattern. It's ok if you don't like full loot mmo's, but if you haven't spent 100 to 300 hours on them, you will never understand why they are awesome. Also, the reason they fail is because they are all made by indie company: period. Finally, if you get killed 1v4, just join a clan and fight back. The ppl who have ganged on you have done you a great service by letting you know indirectly that you need more friends in this game.
@@RealBigDeal22 I think you missed my point, I just pointed out what makes the game unplayable for me and for most people. I know how this system works and its what makes the economy of the game flow. I know these games are not supposed to be played solo, and I did join a clan, but I was just explaining my point of view on why this genre of MMOs are more likely to die and its not only because they're made by indie companies
Ya, it is frustrating. The thing about albion that I don't like, is that it's so complicated. There are a ton of armor and weapon combinations that don't work. And it feels like I never get better at pvp I just continue to die. I like the island system, but it gets old being forced to play in the dangerous zones just so you can earn the most silver. The cool thing is if you get a good guild in the black zones then you are on discord and you can ask your buddies to help you if you get ganked.
Were you know as olievera-arc in Albion online ? Anyways even i play AO a lot but eventually it felt just repitatative and boring, not to ignore the fact, that full loot kept making me lose stuffs daily. Even i quit AO.
The problem I had with pvp focused MMO's is that the userbase generally acts EXTREMELY elitist and see everyone else who isn't like that as "part of the problem". Like it's my fault that the hardcore pvp mmo genre is dying because I'm not toughing up. Just as much as the majority of video game reviewers are hurting "their" mmo's because they just state the fact that it's a nieche genre that's not for everyone. Just like Josh said in this video. The Userbase for such games (not all of them, I know. But seemingly the majority of players casuals will face off against) act extremely aggressive towards anyone they deem "not tough enough".
Because they are more aggressive they tend to be the 'vocal' minority. Demographically speaking 90% of those 'casuals' they're trashing on just don't have any desire to post comments and are just as happy to move onto other things. This in turn leads too many developers to think that the bulk of these forum posts are coming from an accurate representation of their player base and make adjustments that only appease to the loud few. If New World wasn't in it's testing phases the 'feedback' would've just been people dropping the game without a word.
if you think PVPers are elistis, you have never seen how PVErs are, they wont even consider haveing a PVPr in their raids, while PVP players love haveing PVE players in PVP since it creates better pops or a bigger player base in the PVP. and yes PVPers are vocal, cause 99% of all MMOS are screwing up their PVP by only focusing on PVE
@@weybye91 agreed, but i don't think mmos need to implement full loot mechanics to make things interesting for pvpers, they just need to fix server lag and introduce new content which is hard work for devs. one of the coolest "loot" mechanics for pvp I've seen was eso's telvar stones but they're lost behind garbage servers which encourage proc sets to overcome.
@@TheJoYo that's not what I'm saying, I'm just pointing out that OP dosent know the diffrince bettwen elitest or passionate players. But if Devs want to hold on to players, they need to cater to all the type of players, instead of alienate one part of the player base ie PVPers. Take any MMO beside New World and check how big the diffrince between the diffrint groups, and you will see that PVPers are either small or non existing cause Devs dosent do anything for the PVPers
@@weybye91 The problem is you cant cater to hardcore pvp/pve players who want to grind and earn their accomplishments through persaverance and time investment AND people who feel all time/effort gated content is mean and exclusionary.
When I was a teen I read this novel about a Secret Service agent protecting the Vice President called "Big Shell" or "Inner Shell" or something like that. There was a subplot about her brother who was developing a video game that predicted the MMO genre. In fact it even predicted griefing and spawn camping. This was in the mid 90's, a couple years before even Ultima Online came out.
yeah, not that hard to predict, honestly. Still, it shows that the author bothered to actually think about what they were writing. What really amazes me is that there are still developers TODAY that don't seem to know about these mechanics.
There were already lots of online Multi-User Dungeons (MUDs), starting officially as far back as 1980. These were text based at the time but were the original MMOs with standard class archetypes, leveling, grouping, and on many, plenty of griefing and spawn camping. Nothing teaches you typing faster than having to fully type out your actions as soon as you see "An enemy wizard approaches from north."
I have played DCUO and Star Trek online for years and I can tell you first hand that the pvp crowd are generally the most toxic, unfriendly and utterly hateful people I have come across. If they win they are horrible and if they lose they are horrible and if you don't want to pvp you will be berated in the most vile combinations of poor english you could imagine. It's almost fun to just watch them be so self damaging actually but it's just awful to interact with these people. I can't imagine a game centered around their tastes lasting very long frankly.
i always forget that STO has a PvP mode and it's a surreal feeling up there with seeing someone's P2W complaints on the reddit (because that would imply that a competitive meta exists) to be reminded that it exists. the game is like guild wars 1 in that it's effectively a singleplayer RPG that you can play with friends.
Hey lol we aren't all toxic jerks, I like dank souls pvp but you won't catch me sending hate mail. And if I keep stomping someone, invading or being invaded, I like to give them some drops for being a sport, or offering help. I've seen a fair few dank souls players who are the same. Idk how you found such bad sports lol
@@2ndbreakfast29 I said generally xD And I am talking about MMO's for the most part not souls games where the players are all a special sort of masochist. The hyper competitive type tend to go for pvp in these sorts of games and with that type of personality there are universal negative traits. It no different than anyone else though you have positives that help in one way while having negatives that hinder in another. The negative of being hyper competitive is you tend to be rather toxic, be it repeatedly attacking someone you can keep beating or berating the people who do beat you. These actions tend to make the hyper competitive sort more driven to compete while others it really puts them off. Different folks different strokes as the saying goes.
I gave DCUO a shot until it i hit the content paywall, surprisingly the high level guys there just leave me alone for the most part and had more fair fights with people around my level. i had some wins, some losses but they seemed to be good sports about it
I haven’t played a ton of MMO’s, but as someone who plays a ton of fighting games, the idea of games like this is strange to me. You grind for hours and hours to get good gear and stuff just to lose it from a single battle. It just seems like a waste of time. If I lose a match in a fighting game, the worst that happens is my online rank falls. I can start another match and play again. It’s not as if I lose a combo that I’ve been practicing and I have to spend ten hours in training mode to relearn that combo.
I am also into fighting games as well. Fighting games also grant you the entire toolkit of a character right out the box where as MMOs require you to work your way up to get those skills.
thats the idea, if you don't want to lose your gear, Don't lose. is as simple as that. and if you do, then go back from zero and start all over again with stone tools. i cannot describe the adrenaline you feel when you are at the verge of defeat or victory there is no other game that can make your hearth race, and put your emotion into its highest level, being winning.. or losing. BUT i do concede that is not a gameplay for everybody, and the only way to sustain such gameplay would literally requiere your body and soull, playing 20 hours a day. Nowadays, a barely have time to play so i can see why hardcore pvp isn't a sustainable to keep the game alive. (speaking from personal experience playing conan) i do love that game,and i wish that i could play it all day but... not only servers are dead but also i don't have the time due to real world needs.
@@TheTournesoul a lot of games in general give you the filing you are talking. The "adrenaline rush" of fighting games, old cod games, gears of war, strategy games, the list goes on. It's just the "I lost all that work I put into my character because xyz came out of no where". Not just because "I lost". You can "lose" in a lot of things and feel shitty. It's "I lost everything I worked for" is the feeling ppl hate the most. No one is bothered about losing, it's "losing the stuff/time". I agree "losing all my stuff is fun" isn't for everyone. Even if one COULD spend all day to get it back, WOULD you?
@@supersonicguru1 speaking purely from personal experience, there is no other game that makes me feel like losing isn't an option because the obvious amount of work that you need to re-do if you do. for example, i was being raided by a big clan and we been fighting 6 hours of pure madness, we were literally 2 minutes from being wiped, and almost had a hearth attack, but in the end, we survived, NOTHING compares to that. So yes, even if lose everything I WOULD keep grinding back from zero, or i would want to. Sadly, i don't have that much free time anymore is not possible to sustain that kind of gameplay for long.
@@TheTournesoul You see this is the problem, why would I spend hours grinding a game for an item I can lose in a few minutes, why dont I grind real life. Nothing compares to achieving things irl. Learning to for example change your brakes on your car, also saving money and being able to fix shit yourself is far more rewarding than fighting in a game for 6hrs
As a huge PvP fan these games often lose me at the "full loot" part. As you explain, nothing's fun in farming equipment to lose it like this. I think the best way to implement a reward for PvP would be to loot crafting materials of the same quality as the gear your "victim" is wearing, and maybe some currency. It goes well with a player-driven economy.
What you don't get is in these games you don't farm for loot. You never go PvP with anything worth losing, so losing everything you have on you is never a big deal. It is simply a mindset change. Everyone is basically pvping in really cheap and easy to replace gear (or gear that is relatively trivial for them to replace) so the PvP is far less about being gear carried and far more about raw skill. Once you feel more confident in your abilities you can risk slightly better gear for an edge. The fact you can lose anything though even if its minor gives you a massive adrenaline rush that you simply do not get in traditional PvP. For instance in EVE (this is how it was 7+ years ago when I played, not sure about these days) people would suicide gank in super cheap ship loadouts, then INSURE their ship for more than the trashy ship was worth, so when they ganked you in highsec and died to the police they actually made money off the ship loss because their whole gear build cost them less than the insurance they got back from losing it. Of course if you actually prepared for ganks in highsec you were quite immune to them. Simply tanking out your ship and not carrying around a shitload of valuables meant the gankers would leave you alone because going after you lost them the opportunity cost potential of a higher value target slipping through while they were resetting their operation. If you really like PvP for the skill aspect and don't just want to pretend you are good because you are gear carried you should give a full loot game a try. You may just like it more than you realize.
@@JathraDH Nice assumptions about me... I've played EVE 3+ years and enjoyed it a lot. And that works particularly for EVE because you pilot ships and have insurance. So it's relatively easy to only go out with stuff you can afford to lose and replace. Also note that EVE is kinda like what I just described. When your ship gets blowed up, part of the cargo and materials can be looted but a portion of that is destroyed: The guy that killed you can't just go away with your whole ship. Also I'm a huge partisan of passives/character build playing more into your character's power level than levels and gear, so nope, I really don't like being "gear carried". But in an MMORPG part of the appeal is to work towards cool things that make your characret a bit unique. You know, the role-play / community part. So I find it uncool if you can't ever show off your rare stuff by fear of losing it. To me, repair bills and loss of time are enough to had to the humiliation of having lost. Plus PvP hotspots get lame if you get out naked from your first encounter. Again, what works in EVE doesn't necessarily works in a more traditional MMO. The scale and gameplay alone sets it apart.
@@Biouke Except EVE is just literally a copy of UO, which was the original traditional MMO. So yes, the stuff works just fine in a traditional MMO. You could show off stuff in UO as well, in your house. You just didn't go riding into battle with it unless you had balls of steel or were so rich you simply didn't care. And we did the same stuff in UO that you do in EVE. You went out in cheap crafted armor/weapons that you didn't care about losing. This is how every full loot full PvP game works, not just EVE. I was simply using EVE as an example. You left your rare as hell weapons worth more than most houses at home in their display case though to show off your wealth. I apologize about making assumptions however, just the way you worded things really sounded like you hadn't even tried the games. Really the hard rule about these types of games is you never go out in stuff you are unwilling to lose. EVE is a bit more hardcore than UO was though because you couldn't blow up peoples houses in the game. You could kill people inside their houses, but you could not loot the house itself. At launch you could break into peoples homes and rob them blind but that pretty quickly got nerfed, even EVE doesn't allow a random person to break into your hangar and steal all your ships. You could still sneak into someone's house and wait for them to drop something then loot it before they could lock it down however, or just murder them. I will agree to disagree with you on the definition of "full loot' though. To me full loot simply means when you die everything stays on your corpse for the taking by anyone or anything that passes by. In UO the monsters themselves would loot your corpse and all the loot would stay in the monsters inventory until killed then it dropped off the monster. I do like EVEs system of blowing up some items though, gives a bit more realism to the game, especially since destruction of a ship is a violent process.
@@JathraDH That's a definition of full loot I can agree with and adhere to with some limitations. As an example, to me it's essential that players in a MMORPG must fight for resources at some point, and that carrying goods across the map must present a risk. I also have a hard time calling MMORPG a game in which players can't interact with and influence the persistent world. Territory control, defense and upkeep to secure prime materials for crafting should be driving the game's life more than spoon-fed high-end content. But I also think there must be some use for PvE and that each player profile can have it's niche in the game. Again, that's one thing I like with EVE: Even if the game is centered around PvP between player-owned factions, there's still a place for socialisers, explorers, achievers, etc. and the systems all feed into each other so everyone is useful to the community. Most fun I had was with simple exploration or cov-ops ships, didn't engage directly in PvP but I was scouting, tracking, finding targets for WH warfare, popping the occasional interdiction bubble, then my mates would raid in and give me a cut from the profit :)
@@Biouke Yea UO had persistent in world housing back in 1997. Player run towns, ghettos, thief/murderer towns, strip malls etc. You could run vendors out of your house and setup a shop or use it as a base for nefarious activities. There were places in the game you just flat didn't go. You would walk through and they would look deserted and suddenly 10 people would come out of the shadows and relieve you of your possessions. It did not really have the built in territory control that EVE does but it certainly had player defined no go areas and guild wars and all that stuff. Loot was also heavy and did require transport to safe locations so moving cargo was a risk, although not as much as in EVE. Most of the modern hardcore full loot MMOs are actually attempting to flat out copy the golden days of UO. The real issue is that UO was a mainstream MMO and there were not really any casual MMOs at the time so the community was forced into that shared space and while it had the pop things did work beautifully. These days though the community for such games is far more niche so you are just given a higher concentration of the bad apples vs them being spread out among a more diverse population of gamers like in the old days. This leads to new players, who have not experienced such an environment and aren't used to how to deal with it being instantly alienated/griefed and driven away keeping the community niche. If they were allowed a bit of time to orient themselves I think the community would be much bigger and better as a whole.
It's literally just a bullying simulator. The strong more experienced /target the noobs. I think it reflects poorly on the playerbase. Seems like they just want to powertrip and use the " we're just hardcore" as a mask to hide the fact they get a kick out of bullying. It's like a martial art instructor wailing on the kids in his class during demonstrations to feel powerful. It's not hardcore/impressive, it's just pathetic.
When it comes down to it, MMORPGs have been nearly killed by developers pandering to PVP-addicts. They used to be aimed at players that were into exploration, quests and cooperative missions, but in an effort to broaden the audience, they started catering to people that would be happier playing MOBAs and Call of Duty - And those "new" players would make life miserable for the traditional players. They would destroy the player-base and then move on to the next game. Now we have "idle" RPGs...
It's not just pandering, it's also a whole lot easier to make. Quests and puzzles and backstory, balanced PvE spaces and fun boss battles all take a lot of work to do right. Setting up a world-sized PvP arena and just letting the players whack each other silly is much cheaper and quicker, for the same or better money (at least in the short term).
I disagree that the audience that likes full loot PVP would be happier playing MOBAs and Call of Battlefield: Modern Duty. Those games exist. If they would enjoy them more, they would go play them. But those games give an equal (more or less, depending on P2W micro transactions in the game) footing to all players. They don't want that. They want to dominate others, they want to make others sad, and they want others to keep coming back so they have people to make sad. Any game with a matchmaking won't appeal to them. Any game with an ELO or ranking system won't appeal to them. Any ranking system worth a damn will keep your win/loss ratio at roughly 1 once you get to your 'actual' rank, no matter how good you are, unless you actually are just without peer and no other player has the skill to reach your rank. Smurf accounts exist in games like LoL for challenger tier players to stomp on gold players, so those challenger tier players have super high win rates, but eventually they get to their 'actual' rank and the wins and losses level out. This leveling out is not what hardcore full loot pvp MMO players want. They want to exercise dominance over other people, not have a fair fight. They don't want a challenge. They will never go start a different full loot PVP MMO that already has a well established oligarchy of players because they want to be part of that oligarchy, if they aren't it's not fun, and they have zero desire to face the challenges of breaking into that oligarchy from nothing.
@@bighairycomputers Fair enough. That's probably a much more accurate analysis of those types of players than the one I suggested. That being said, the problem remains the Developers pandering to these people. If the developers didn't cater to them they would likely go elsewhere. It's almost a "chicken-or-egg" situation. There's an old saying : "Don't hate the Player, hate the Game" - Which always just made me think that there _would_ be no game without the Players...
The reason I play MMOs, and games in general, is that exploration and cooperative experience. Going out in the world and grinding some bear asses and iron ore for a crafter to sell to a warrior for his next dungeon run sounds great to me. But when those same warriors are just ganking me instead of paying the tax at the shop, it loses fun. I do the work and get penalized for it.
@@foogod4237 This, 100%. It's laziness and incompetence. A lot of video game devellopers are simply too lazy and too incompetent to come up with storylines and worldbuilding. So they take the easy road : the sandbox game. The whole "Create your own adventures and stories" bullshit.
I had a discussion once with one of those who "demanded" a full-loot hardcore PvP game from AGS, which basically bottled down to that *they didnt like full-loot hardcore PvP games, but they believed they wanted one*. Now, I played a lot of Rust back in the day, and given the right community, it's pretty fun. Rust *has* full-loot hardcore PvP game play, which means you can craft loads of high tier stuff, build intricate bases, fight epic battles and have a whole lot of insecurities about your safety. So, even if you dont like EVE because it's space-crap, or battle in MO1 is "bad", Rust is still a pretty decent game, when you're trying to look at full-loot hardcore PvP games. You start up a server, you play a bit, gather, craft, build a base, hunt other players.. then you die, lose your stuff, gather new things, craft some more, safestock stuff in your base, you die, you lose everything, you go to base, you find out it's been raided.. now, shit happens, and depending on your server community, either that's considered griefing because you dont destroy/raid bases, or you'll hear people laugh at you in chat - either is fine, if you've signed up for it, but personally I find the community that has *some* rules safeguarding against griefing is more fun. Dont destroy someones stuff for the sake of destroying it, imo. Now, I get it, I've found LOTS of people saying that if you dont like the game then uninstall, etc., and ok, fine. But *why* are these people, who *have* a full-loot hardcore PvP game *in Rust* , not playing Rust? WHY are they invading *every other MMO* demanding that game *too* become Rust? Anyway, background on the topic given - the guy I was talking about *hated* Rust, because it was so boring to always start over from the beginning all the time, to always spawn with just a rock and be killed on sight by the same player who killed him, because that player now has his gun he spent 40h to gather, loot, craft, and it was *so good* ! It turned out that the guy *absolutely hated* full-loot hardcore PvP games. He just wanted the benefits *against others* of a full-loot hardcore PvP game, where he could be strong and shit on newbies and people who just died and had nothing. He didnt want to play a FLHPvP game. He wanted *everyone else* to play it, while *he didnt have to*, while *still playing the same game*. Essentially, he wanted a game where he could force-grief other players. The loudvoiced minority *doesnt* really want a full-loot hardcore PvP game. They just want to grief others. That's the entire point of such games. They dont want the combat, the stress of insecurities, the thrill of death, the "restart every time you die" deal. They want *to inflict that on others* and be safe from it themselves. Those people arent looking for an MMO. They're looking for options to grief. It's as simple as that.
Actually, I played a lot of Rust too (I still would, but gaming takes too much time) and what I love about the hardcore part is the necessity to secure your base (by programming an electricity based system - one of the new features, for example) and to always be on the lookout. I personally enjoyed surviving dangerous trips or stealing loot from someone, but I didn't see it as griefing or inflicting pain to someone. Of course, getting killed isn't fun, but avoiding death is! I think you're overly generalizing the playerbase, or maybe I am the one who's wrong. Defeating someone doesn't necessarily mean griefing
@@eagletgriff Ah, you're right! I see it now. I'd skimmed over that part. It's probably true, there are people in Rust who exclusively offline raid you
In my experience the kind of people that want this design are really into it as long as they can gank noobs, once someone who is better than them comes along, gives them a fair fight, and whoops their ass they will most definitely cry out to the skies in rage and call the other person a cheater. They're passionate I'll give them that, but the best they could hope for is either playing EVE or that a big MMO creates a little safe space for the hardcore pvp crowd.
That's basically the entire wilderness pking scene in OSRS. And their solution is to beg for more pvm stuff to be shoved into the wilderness to up the defenseless players for them to hunt.
I wouldn’t say they’re passionate, just insane. A passionate person would absolutely share their passion with others. An insane person drives others around them insane, *nobody* likes an insane person.
the bigger problem isn't just that the hardcore pvp mmo crowd is smaller by itself. the percentage of people who want fair fights and not just rofl stomp the opposition is a tiny part of the already small hardcore pvp mmo crowd. facing that kinda environment, new players, whether casual or not, are quick to quit.
This type of game sounds very similar to the PvPvE games like Robin Hood and Sea of Thieves. I ran into the EXACT problem you laid out. Me and a group spent almost 2 hours solving an island riddle and were in the middle of loading up our ship with the loot we worked so hard on getting only to get raided before we could even get off the island. It was so soul crushing and such an awful feeling we didn't play again after that. Which is a shame because I liked so many other things about it but hated the idea of being raided after doing PvE stuff.
I barely do anything that isn't a quick voyage for that reason. The more time you spend doing a vault, Ashen Lord, or whatever the more time there is for a larger crew to crush you.
@@Dufoth and that's also why the game only has about 12k to 14k people playing it at any given time these days compared to less hardcore games that work with the average players time in mind and have millions of players daily, it shows what people actually enjoy and find fun.
The Division 1 & 2 also come to mind at times. Dark Zone has best gear and PVE enemies, you clear them and go to get your gear out only to be ganked by a group that doesn't even want your stuff.
I had a discussion with an old friend that stuck out in my mind here. I used to play Lineage 2, he used to play World of Warcraft. Back then, I described Lineage 2 as a hardcore game where anyone can attack you at any time and get your gear (remember: this was back when you gear dropped pretty often on death even when you are not pk-flagged), and he wanted to watch me play it, so I invited him over and booted up the game. At some point, this conversation came up: (another player runs past me outside of a town) Friend: So, attack him! Me: I don't really want to. Friend: Why not? Me: If I kill him I'd be PK flagged, and this close to a town if someone hunts me down I'd drop all my stuff. Friend: So, it sounds to me like Lineage is less PvP than WoW, since the system itself discourage you from pvp. That conversation still stuck in my mind. Most players in Lineage 2, indeed, almost never flag unless they are with their guild-mates for safety in numbers because of gear loss, while you can generally PvP opposite faction in WoW without much fear. Despite this, L2 is the more hardcore game. It's kinda interesting how that dichotomy works.
Exactly this. In a full loot full PvP game there are consequences for actions. If you want to grief someone, they can get their friends and grief you back. As such, in my experience I find the communities typically overall far less toxic in full loot games (at least they used to be before they became niche). Once there is no accountability for actions people will just be total assholes, just like when you give them total anonymity online.
@@vasiljambazov not really high risk if people will just pvp as a group, seems a lot more annoying if you are out in the world and you get zerged by a group of people
Lineage 2 never allowed dropping of items in pvp unless you were red. you only dropped gear as a white when dying to a mob. but you are right in the latter part of your post, the Lineage 2 pvp system was flawed, as there was no defense for turning red, anyone could hunt you down with no recourse and if you defend yourself you turn more red. all they needed to do to fix this was make people turn purple when they attacked a red player.
@@Scizyr Ah, yea UO didn't have that problem. If you hit a red first you turned grey to them and they could freely kill you back without further penalty.
Even in EVE, which is pretty hardcore in general, most players seem to prefer spending their time mining, or doing missions or exploration. The whole economy is built around that. So even in a hardcore PvP environment, most people will spend most of their time doing regular PvE stuff, just with the constant threat of some random dude suddenly murdering you.
EVE is somewhat clever about it. With it's size and zoning. They basically make the pond so big and diverse that the prey fish and the predator fish don't find each other as much. So as "pray" aka "casual" you can somewhat manage your probability of being killed. If that was not the case, EVE would not exist anymore.
@@catriona_drummond That's what Albion online is missing, it's full loot pvp but the pond is the size of a small puddle, i keep trying to get into it because the crafting is pretty enticing, but each map zone only has 4 exits/entrances at the North south east west poles... So in the black zones (like eve null zones) there's literally just groups of gankers camping near each exit waiting for you to come running through... This makes gathering IMPOSSIBLE unless you join one of the bigger guilds and have literal armed escorts to protect you and the other gatherers. This means you have to have a SCHEDULE and adhere to strict times so that you can meet up with your guild. It's impossible to have a life and play games like that at the same time. EDIT: "impossible to have a life and play games like that at the same time" Unless you're one of the gankers, then you can take someones hours of grinding in seconds i guess...
It boggles my mind how an entire community cant recognize the faults and criticisms of themselves. Even if you look at less MMO-style games, hardcore PVP like Rust has the exact same issues and they wonder why no one new will join. Its the most toxic and aggressive community. I tried Mortal Online for a couple months once, trying to be a blacksmith and sell weapons. I never made it far because "Hardcore PVPers" (a group of 5 who all sucked at combat so they rushed you as a gang) killed me every single time I tried to mine something. No one fights their equal in "Hardcore PVP" and always kicks down then wonders why no one will come in and play and their already small community got smaller.
Rust and PvP ARK are the perfect examples of this. I like PvP, and specifically joined PvP servers because I thought it would be fun, only to realize that... you don't really get to do any ACTUAL PvP. The only people doing even PvP are people at end game, when they all have max gear and are in big groups. The rest of the time is just trying to play a survival/crafting sim with the added hinderance of people who can instakill you constantly destroying your base, killing you, and taking all of your stuff when you can barely threaten them, if at all.
I remember reading an article about a game that was billed HCPVP. Within about three months most of the servers were dead. On each of these servers a group/guild formed that was made up of those people who could game 6 hours a day M-F and 12 hours Sat + Sun. This meant they got all the best gear and loot early. If other guilds had a stronghold, they would attack at times when the other players weren't on (NPC would defend the base but not as well as PCs) and destroy the base, forcing the other guilds to start over. Eventually it became clear you want to play, you join their guild, and the PVP died!
So that' s why games liked Holdfast were praised for having great communities even if it is full of National Socialist larpers. The game is mechanically terrible that you have to learn how to take it very unseriously in order to continue playing on it. The advice that I always give to noobs in the game is just to enjoy it or quit before they can' t get back their refund. It is a game where competitiveness is reserved mostly for losers or players already comfortable with its lousy mechanics.
bro you can say that about pretty much any MMO nowadays, they all die. But we have albion, eve online, ultima, even tarkov to some extent all of which are still thriving today.
This is why I can't enjoy games like Rust, the basic concept is good, the problem is like a lot of games people ruin it. I had a similar experience in Rust, I build up a nice base and was having fun, then I logged in and somebody had destroyed the base, built random crap all over, hidden tool sheds all over so we couldn't even clean up easily, and robbed everything. And I've never played Rust again, I just logged off and uninstalled it. These games all have the potential to be really fun, but theres also some anti-social asshole who'll just use it as an excuse to bully people online, or who just gets their jollies off making sure other people aren't having fun.
I would love to play a pvp focused MMO with full loot. The only thing that holds me back is that this genre in particular attracts the sh*ttiest player base. Mortal Online 2 looks amazing, but I know well enough that feeling would be fleeting within 10 minutes of walking out of a city. I'm all for the gamble of losing my stuff I worked for, but in reality, it's never just a one and done when a group of griefers have you on a conveyor belt. "Join a guild". No.
That really is the problem. It's not that you get killed in these games and lose your cool stuff, then switch to your backup stuff and fight to reclaim your glory... its you get killed and looted, again.. and again.. and again.. Because its a video game with respawns and all that. The griefing can literally be neverending until you say screw this and uninstall the game.
Blue blocking was a constant issue in mortal online 1. These sort of people have no shame. Its the same typ that cut the power of a guys house in real life to kill and steal his titan in eve online. Something i fear from ashes of creation. The pvp crime karma system sounds amasing but im 100% someone will find a way to abuse it. And farm you for your gear.
The genre doesn't attract more assholes than any other, that's just a good way to get kills in a game that's based around getting kills where everything goes. Brutal survival is unfair by design, you just don't like it.
@@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz I think people like you really do underestimate the ability of players to kill a game. There's assholes in say FFXIV, but they can't do anything to ruin your game, not really in any meaningful way. So you just carry on and enjoy playing. When players have the ability to essentially block other players from playing the game.. yeah they dont toughen up, they leave. Eventually so many leave that theres no one left. Then the game dies. Or hobbles along with a minimal population that sits around complaining that no one wants to play the game to be their new victim.
These kind of games attract many gankers. There are people who enjoy PvP, but not being downed by a group as soon as they leave a city with no progress. It is a downward spiral, gankers make people leave and in the end they are only left on server with other gankers, which becomes boring to them, because they cannot gank anymore, but have even ground PvP, which is boring to gankers.
There's one hardcore full-loot PVP server out of all the official Ultima Online shards. It's called Siege Perilous, and it's the least populated shard on the entire game with a dedicated player-base that sits around two dozen total players on average, with around a dozen of those online at any given time. All of the other shards have the Trammel Facet, and full-item insurance that you can utilize for when you are in the Felluca Facet, which is the Facet that has full-loot non-consensual PvP enabled. Insurances makes it not hardcore full-loot PvP as your charged a miniscule amount of gold upon death, and none of your items can be looted, and Trammel is a zone with player versus player combat turned off. Of the dozen or so players you'll find online on the Siege Perilous server, about 1/6 of them will be an active PvP player. The other 5/6 of those players are crafters/tamers that actively wear gear the PvP players won't loot even if they do manage to kill them, because it's not worth spending the time to take it off of their corpse. About one night a week, all of the PvP players on that server get together to PvP, and they've been playing together for so long that they no longer even loot each other because it's honestly a pointless endeavor as they are all basically wearing the same exact gear. Let me make one point absolutely clear. Ultima Online is not a hardcore full-loot PvP game. Even on the classic shards that are privately run, it's not really full-loot, because as you said in this very video, the items are easily replaceable, and there isn't much point in picking them up as the itemization doesn't really make it worth snagging the items off of a corpse. Ultima Online has steadily gone down-hill ever since EA handed control of the game over to Broadsword. The current team-leader at Broadsword treats the official game client as her private nest egg, and the development team there works maybe 1 hour per week on maintaining the game. It's gone as far as some people even thinking that the team there are the primary source of all RMT that happens offline with the game itself. Sad state of affairs to be honest. Had to stop playing around the end of 2019 because I just couldn't deal with the bullshit from the 'developers' anymore.
Dofus (an MMO few people know) has a hardcore PvP mode where you lose everything on death. Those servers are shutting down because they had too few players.
the culture around MMO's have changed a lot since the early days, what people want from an MMO is vastly different than it was 20 years ago. For me personally I want a good story, and an immersive world I can connect to. I don;t wan to be locked in to the MMO forced to grind and play. I wanna have the option to play after max level with options of things to do at max level.
Yeah thats why i like ffxiv. Its such a chill game because i can relax and enjoy the MSQs at my own pace. I dont feel pressured to rush to the end game
@@Nerobyrne Aye, I had to double check that, cause that was not the impression I got from the game. But the devs shifted focus from full PvP to add more PvE over the last year. Had to remove my comment as I felt silly with lack of knowledge 🙄
I played one until mid level. While standing around near my group in a populated area a twinked-up guy attacked me. What he thought was an over-equipped over-powered character killing a normal character turned into him getting ganked and looted by me and my friends. He then logged in with his high-level main and proceeded to kill me, and from then on any time I logged in he quickly hunted me down and killed me with his main. The game was unplayable at that point, so I quit.
For me it's usually fun at launch when everyone is in the same boat, trying to figure stuff out etc. Once the honeymoon is over and the minmaxers and nolifers pull ahead of everyone else it stops being fun because you just get stomped no matter what
Strolling through this comment section has been a treat. A lot of confirmation bias, and so many people that can’t read a financial report, or read in general.
My first experience with this was in Everquest 1. I remember being PK'd (as it was called back then) and my gear being taken (iirc the could only take 1 piece of gear, but it still sucked). My kid brain though I would be the alpha dog, but I was very, very wrong lol. The hardcore PvP crowd need casuals because they need people to lord over to make themselves feel better. Why they don't realize this, I don't know. All of these PvP folks are now playing pay to win games like FIFA/Madden Ultimate team, ect.
Honestly, the fact that most people would feel bad about ruining other players' fun or at least can relate to the feeling of losing what you spent hundreds of hours to get, is actually a good sign.
I don’t think people actually feel bad. They just eventually run out of people to pick on once casual players decide it’s no longer in their best interest to stick around.
@@Srab23 and you are the reason these games fail. Bullies are always people who fail elsewhere in life, and have to make someone feel worse. Being a bully just means that you, sir, are a failure.
I had a conversation with a guy I used to date where we plotted how to make a full loot pvp mmorpg work, and we basically had to come to the conclusion that certain high quality items would have to be, to some degree, ephemeral, and the point is to enjoy the temporary (days? weeks?) buff you get from having the item, which will either degrade if it's still in your inventory at the end of the timer, or reset when looted by a new person. People would still probably game this, though. (Being killed by a friend's character, who loots the item, and then you kill the friend's character to reset the timer, keeping the gear forever with more effort.), but it was the closest we could really get to "looting gear would be fun/improve the character who did it" without becoming haves and have-nots and the have-nots quitting.
eve is a perfect example of this honestly, but as an eve player myself, a dedicated one, if there was no high sec for the care bears? There would be no eve. It would spiral out and die. The frustrating part about eve is that you're So invested, you're so committed, that quitting becomes unpalatable. When you Win eve *(Uninstall)* there is a sense you've wasted thousands of dollars in assets (Even if you plex and didn't spend a Dime) and there's always a pull to return to it as you wonder if it's gotten better or worse or hear about new changes. Eve's player count is always fluctuating as well with big events like the most recent war between the null sec blocs. now that the year long war is over, alot of players who returned Only for that war, are leaving again and taking 6 month breaks. Eve is worth mentioning because it is probably considered the most Hardcore of Hardcore MMO's. the learning curve is suicidally steep, the players can be welcoming but are usually ruthless, your lessons in game from the community are Spartan in nature (But thankfully often good natured) and the only thing honestly keeping Eve online from cannibalizing itself is the community within it. It's robust, and manages to somehow avoid the rampant toxicity of other Full loot mmos. (Thank christ for that) Also super cereal internet spaceships? poggers.
On a full loot V Rising server I played on a while back, the admins were complaining that the players in the highest level gear would immediately run away from each other when they encountered one another in the wild. These guys don't even enjoy actual PvP, they just want to beat down and bully players with worse gear than them. The actual PvP enjoyers went on servers where everyone spawned in with the best gear and all weapons and spells available for dueling. Guess which server I had more fun playing on.
"You can't kill a player so hard their account deletes itself" Haven and Hearth: "WHAT IF YOU COULD?" (Also they can do so when you sleep. You can literally log in to an empty character screen because you are vulnerable to being PERMANENTLY killed even while you're logged out. And stans will still say "that's what makes the game good hur duh")
Don't misslead people about offline kill. Characters can't be killed if you didn't commit crimes and didn't leave game with alt+f4. All your crimes leave scent on place which prevent you character to disappear from world or hide in safe soft bed without risk of death as well making heart fire valuable to others player for smash. Small one forgiven quickly like trespassing, only like 12 hr exists and most people ignore that one. A thiefs (3 days), assault (7 days) and killers (14 days) have stronger scent and they can be used to send NPC to kill you for your crimes, but then you will have 24 hr before it attack your character and other player can warn in discord or something like that. Probable the reason why you were killed offline, you commit crime of assault which can be done easily by attacking player first. Even if he trespassed in your land, if you initial fight, you are the one who commit crime. Besides, if your character dies you can inheir part of skill and attributes of old one with fresh mind of new one to re discover all thing, so not a complete account delete. Old character from now on will act as ancestor for this one which important for one game ritual.
If they want to make it TRULY hardcore, you have to pay $60 for an account key. If you die, the game uninstalls, your account is deleted, and your pc's mac address is blacklisted, requiring you to spend $60 on a new pc to play again. That'll help monetize hardcore full loot pvp right there.
ROFL all these tryhards saying "Git gud, we don't like casuals" etc.. do they realize that video games are trivial amusements that is supposed to deliver FUN?! Not everyone is a hyper-competitive manbaby! Thanks Josh.
I played eve online for a few years, only stopped because I no longer had the time to play a game like that. One of the best things eve online does to balance the full loot pvp is to make better items scale exponentially in price, but diminish exponentially in performance. With a few exceptions, deadspace and faction mods provide marginal increases and will not vastly improve your ships capacities in pvp. (I know there are details especially in small gang that I'm leaving out) This is incredibly important and something that most full loot pvp games i look at dont recognize. The baseline, affordable gear should be good enough for 90% of encounters and situations. Bling should always scale exponentially in cost and diminish exponentially in performance, making it extremely niche. It also provides extremely viable options for pvp in smaller ships that are extremely cheap to lose and take very little time to skill into. The fact that some pilots are content flying these smaller ships exclusively is testament to this. These two of the core design philosophies that makes a solid and new player friendly pvp experience. Any full loot mmo has to adapt these principles to succeed
I've only ever observed eve from the sidelines, but isn't part of it also that Eve's guilds/corporations are generally cooperative? (I mean internally cooperative among their members) IIRC a lot of them use their member fees effectively as insurance against the loss of your vessel. So a member being asked to risk their fancy battleship knows they'll be able to buy a new one if the worst happens.
@@Bustermachine One of the Core Sayings in EVE, that gets even told to new Players in the Tutorial of the game is "Dont Fly what you cant afford to loose." Whatever you are Flying right now, you must always be aware that you WILL loose it at some point or another. Keeping this in mind helps somewhat counter the awefull feeling of loosing your stuff- You know that it was inevitable, and it usually isnt to bad of an setback
@@jasperzanovich2504 Basically. The High end stuff (Capital ship class ships) are unafordable for single players, and even smaller to midsized cooperations. Not just unafordable in the way of Money, but also that it takes a long long time to build, and it cant be build in Safer Areas, only in Player Controlled space. That means that yes, the high end stuff is only for the largest Player Groups, and even for them its an Big Thing to loose one of them. That beeing sayed, in EVE the largest, most high end Ships arent necessarily an automatic "I win" Button. Large ships ironically have trouble fighting against small ships. There are many very experienced old Players that by choice only fly Small to medium sized ships, just because every shipclass has its Good and Bad Points.
Something interesting about eve is most its players spend all, if not most, of their time in high sec. So even in a full loot pvp mmo most the players don't participate in that aspect of the game. Of course you can still get ganked in high sec but I'm sure most those people play despite getting ganked or take active measures to avoid it.
The Division 1 and 2 walked the line between PVP and PVE very well. You can choose to do PVE only or you can take the gear you earn in PVE to PVP where exclusive items to the PVP area can be earned and lost to other players but you'll never lose the gear you have extracted out of that zone or earned before entering.
It's not just casuals that drop off, it's also the fans of Hardcore Full Loot PVP MMOs that drop off. Either because they're now god kings that no one can challenge, so everyone else leaves, then they complain that the game is boring because there's no one to fight (ie: no one grinding for them to steal from, so they have to go do manual grind themselves) or because they loose during the buildup and no matter what any Hardcore Full Loot PVP MMO player says, no one likes being a serf, and that's what you end up as when you're not the winner. And Serfdom is the LUCKY outcome. See Last Oasis as an example which, last I was aware, was dominated by nothing but the biggest clans hunting down anyone who showed up on any Server and taking all their stuff. The ONLY way I've ever seen that short circuits this cycle is by wiping your game on the regular much like how Rust or Tarkov currently operate. EVE, at this point, is the only big boy left standing, but even they've lost significant ground from the heights they once experienced. Instead relying on sheer momentum and market presence to continue on with their position.
Yep! Another thing is these hardcore PvP player leaving too when the casuals drop off. Once the punching bags are gone, they become the puniching bags of even more hardcore PvPers. Once they are at the bottom, they are gone too.
I tried Eve Online once. I spent a few hours mining asteroids in a beginner area, bought a bigger mining ship, then went back to mining asteroids again. My first time out with the new ship a pirate player came along, locked me in a tractor beam of some sort and demanded that I give him everything I owned or he'd blow me up. Yeah, that ended well. Suffice to say, I didn't bother paying for another month's subscription.
honesty, having played eve for a few month that story is very hard to believe. u are claiming to just had a few hours in the game. that means u should probably just finish with the career agents missions who serve as an extended tutorial. there also u get ur first mining ship, a venture. so what u say either mean u went mining for hours in ur free rookie corvette (no one does that and the tutorial directly tells u that there are better ships and how to get there) or u already had the venture and upgraded to a mining barge. flying a barge is something u simply cant do in ur first few days af playing eve because the skills needed to do so; unless u paid a lot of money to buy injectors oc. the second thing is that u claim that the ganking player put u in a holding thingy, most possible a warp scrambler, that does prevent u from warping away. if u had been in an high security area, as everyone in their first few days of learning the machanics of eve should be, the concord police would have shot him in seconds. that means u actually have been in a low sec system. u get a warning when entering low sec the first time. this is a full pvp area...honestly ur own problem when u go there and dont know how to avoid pirates/gankers
@@uzrdutiutfiztdf3545 ok how about how easily childish/hostile the community is. because i can attest it is both ive been playing off and on since 2012. ive been ganked multiple times when ive first started alts and even my main back in the day. bumping me off mining belts or even gank me in PVE mission sites within my first month. i remember one time i had been in this corp for about 6 months and we were all chatting and joking and talking shit and one of the leaders got quietly angry at my jest, which by the way we were all doing, and he proceeded to kill me over and over and say i never payed for the "mining permit". ive been in smaller corps and those corps have been war decked because the other corp wanted me and i refused to join. im talking they showed up in T2 battleships and T3 cruisers and killed my corpmates and me over and over till we quit. ive come back after a year and within the first day of me logging on recieve an eve mail saying he was gonna harrass me till i quit again. been in alliances with a pvp standing fleet in the next system over and had a cyno frig drop a cyno and a widow came through and the standing fleet wouldnt help me, i had friendlies hop into the belt with me sit and watch me die in my orca. ive been kicked from a corp/alliance because i didnt feel like going into a fleet battle that was set up from the get go for "fun" wasnt over territory it was for "fun" and it was mandatory. id rather sit back and make isk and fight when it matters than have to blow hundreds of millions on unnecessary fleet fights and they call me a carebear. i spent time in wormholes and its a whole lot more crazy in there also no fights were set up. they were all dynamic and whoever lost well lost but the winning fleet respected the other fleet and left after a good fight and wasnt looking to grief. you dont know scary till youve got about a 40 man fleet lock you and they starting to break your tank on your C5 site rattlesnake that costs like 4 billion.
@@vardenfell971 damn. seems like ur really unlucky with the people u played with...but thats not the entire community. seems like everyone who griefed u, was no stranger but some ex corpmate... and the rattlesnake will surly be targeted. whoever kills u can expect at least a billion in loot. but thats not griefing, thats normal pvp play
@@uzrdutiutfiztdf3545 i was just using the pvp fight in the rattlesnake as a good example of a fun dynamic pvp fight. even though we lost, the attacking fleet didnt grief us or our structures. they wanted a good fight, found it and left. i even survived by entering the wormhole we were fighting on asnd ity shut behind me. i had a 3000dps omni tank, and could dish out almost 1000dps, i solo ran c5 sites in it. had alot of fun in wormholes. one of my favorite fleets involves harbingers with daul webs and plenty of logistic cruisers for reps.
"The world will reset to it's standard equilibrium often enough for players to not get frustrated" Oh man, Ashes of Creation is going to be legitimately jarring when citadels get torn down and are no longer to largest cities in the world, which triggers new dungeons to become accessible and others to become inaccessible....oh boy...this is going to get interesting.
I wonder to what extent Ashes of Creation is going to be a "solvable" game, where after the nerds have done their number crunching have determined what the most optimal placement is for all types of settlement so that all the most optimal content gets unlocked. When the nerds have shown their findings to the powergamers they will want to enforce that state for the most optimal gains and loot, and you'd need a veritable army of trolls to beat down the powergamers, who then complain to the developers on how other people are ruining their fun by taking away the most efficient way to play.
@@Beriorn oh do not worry, there is probably going to be an army of EVE online and runescape trolls ready to beat the game down with those bridges of theirs.
I am terrible at RPG combat but I played the full-loot always-on PVP MMORPG Darkfall Online for a couple of years since its release. I killed two PCs in 'proper' fights during that time (at one point my kill/death ratio was 0,00017!). I was a part time explorer, crafter and gatherer but mostly I was peasant cannon-fodder for my faction. The game had a strong territorial-possession motif and it was engaged with by the players who built large alliances with strict no-killing your allies rules - though it was never safe to venture beyond sight of your stronghold. In fact most of the players grumbled that there wasn't enough PVP in the game because so much of the area around their homes was allied territory. Which was odd because I rarely lacked for PVP whilst roaming the open lands far from home, even though I was avidly avoiding it.* What Darkfall had was am *almost* working, productive society predicated on looting the PVE to pay for the ruinously expensive wars. There was plenty of politics and spies and raids and master crafters who could expect the protection of their factionand their customers, and presumably enough people like me who were devoting some considerable time to sneaking out of the umbrella of relative safety to gather resources. There was a cat and mouse game where the mouse actually had a good deal of fun; the PVP hunting groups could try their luck close to the enemy faction stronghold where there were some weak newbies to prey upon but they would likely be chased off soon and it was a long way to and from their own base. Or they could wander the open lands in hope of coming upon a lone wanderer. Since we were few and far between, the hunters would have to spend long dull period noisily roaming around. Conversely, as a lone traveller, I often knew of them and could effectively hide and sneak away with my treasures knowing that if spotted there would be no mercy. It was interesting because the usual zero-sum interaction, as Josh mentioned, was the PVPer choosing the moment and the target and the victim then being forced into a fight not of their choosing and at a fatal disadvantage. As Josh predicted, that first phase of Darkfall did collapse under its own weight. Politically, it was a dynamic world and it moved inexorably away from the designed intent; the alliance groups got too big and the world war too devastating but it was an absolute blast to be a tiny, tiny part of that great story. It could have carried on with rebuilding and redeveloping until the same situation repeated but I think many of the players were satiated after it all came to a head and because of the one absolutely pertinent and accurate point which Josh made: The players are TOXIC. The society within the faction which was pushed together to be highly cooperative and mutually reliant, was that of boys in a school playground with all the bating and bullying, immature attempts at machismo and surliness and sulking - when thing went wrong and the pressure increased the Lord of the Flies association seems apt. Between allied groups it seems that the various group leaders behaved in much the same way while between opposing players you might experience anything from the jovial mutual respect of a couple of Sea captains in the Age-of-Sail to the worst nastiness-for-its-own-sake of an internet troll. Not that all this is not present in every online gaming environment but there was a concentration amongst the self-selected PVP lovers, with the most toxic becoming the winner of a sort of PVP meta-game in global chat and the game forum. The full PVP game that I think the players who are the subject of this video want is not JUST a PVP game. It is a standard game with a society , laws, an economy which they can live outside of and predate upon. I can almost hear Josh spit-taking his tea and spluttering that that is impossible, ridiculous, how could a game society ever work. Easy. It would have to be like the real world (which is, you will note, PVP and full loot) with a very small munber of these criminal elements, small enough that for most players most of the time they don't have to give much regard to the risks. The trick is to make the criminal PVP lifestyle/gameplay style less rewarding than the alternative but making the success chance low and the punishment very high. In fact it will be necessary to make the playstyle incur lots of grind and lots of dullness, a little more than are incurred by the other playstyles. Only the dedicated role-player who wishes to experience the thrill of outlawry should be enticed, though the perfectly designed game would also allow a few to profit and a few more to break-even through criminality, with the ratio of outlaws to decent folk which the society can support varying with the cohesiveness and the affluence of the society at large. One might ask why anyone would play a game like this, where they are likely to do the same things they would do under a no-PVP system but incur the small risk that this time it might be they who are the victim. The answer is verisimilitude and story. Laking even the possibility of dealing with a bad character in your society makes all such gameworlds a little flimsy and pasty and also creates an absolute barrier between the PC and NPC in terms of how they view the world and how the players view them. In addition, the slight risk adds something to the rewards of simply living and succeeding in this game world. So long as the actual chance of getting killed of robbed is low enough - due to the very small number of active PVPers in a large population I think that many of your casual players will be ready to accept the rare bad event in return for the increased vitality of the world. This, I believe. is what the PVP lovers mean when they say that there is a big large market for a perfectly designed and monetised MMORPG; a game in which many players can live out their humdrum adventures so that 'we' few can take advantage of them. There is a huge flaw in their reasoning, of course. It is mostly based in their inability (or unwillingness) to see themselves as anything other than the better more skilled fighter, the more cunning thief who should be allowed to lord their might over the stupid, fat merchants and crafters. They do not consider that the vast majority will be in the victim class and to make the system work, so will most of them, most of the time. The 'casual PVPer' will not last in such a game (indeed, in a couple of non-starter games which have hinted at attempting this sort of a balancing act in their announcements, I have seen the forums act aggressively against suggestions that the criminal gameplay style get nerfed to preserve this ratio.) Any PVP game is all to likely to become JUST a PVP game because the very same PVP lovers who want this broad scope game with just a hint of PVP always there are not self-aware enough to realise that they are the reason that it will never work. The outlaw players who do stay will be the other, much rarer sort. The genuine committed roleplayer who wants the system of laws and in game defences against criminals to be strong, to challenge them, so long is there is at least a plausible path to survival and advancement. These players should add more to a game through their self generated lore than it loses through their occasionally giving a casual player a bad loss. This sort of world will only be really great if you install REAL consequences; as a minimum, Permadeath, though I believe that there should also be a buy-in with real world money for each new life so the wages of sin are actually meaningful (as to keep the low-level griefers at bay) *note: I resent the application of the self congratulatory term "Hardcore" to these pussy-boys who run around with armour and weapon and skillz without risking much. REAL hardcore is wandering around open PVP land to collect some valuable flower or something without a hope of success if you get caught.
An anecdote from my first time playing Albion Online: I had bought the game when it first came out, and I had a lot of fun grinding my way towards all the masteries I wanted in the beginning, building my wandering warrior to advance from a sword and shield to a great sword. It wasn't easy as the requirements to advance kept on getting higher and higher with every tier reached, and with every resource being mineable by everyone, it took a whole week long marathon just to get all my equipment to tier four (probably, I can't recall, but it sure felt like it). One day I made a friend in my guild, and he asked me what weapon I was reaching for, I told him and he ended up forging me a level 1 ENCHANTED tier 4 great sword. I was immensely happy and thanked them so many times as I had thought it would take me forever to get one (duly note that all this stuff I'm getting excited for isn't even close to endgame stuff); however, I knew fully well that it was a full loot pvp mmo, so worried that I would lose this gift from a friend, I never used it, I stored it in my home chest and grinded my way to make my own in fear of losing it to another player as soon as I got to the yellow zones; I later found out that yellow wasn't full loot, so it kinda didn't matter anyway, lol. Nevertheless, I was scared to lose a weapon that I didn't even make and I was sacred to lose all the equipment I actually did make, cause if I had lost it I would have had to go make another set and use a majority of my resources (again, farming resources is a god damn chore in that game, especially when others are farming). I inevitably started to get bored of the farming loop and started running dungeons which also got boring after a while as there weren't that many at the time. I had then reached the unfortunate truth that Albion Online did not support solo and casual payers in general, the focus was only on the pvp with guild battles, arena battles, and pvp players out in the wilds. Granted arena wasn't added in until later, but then again, there wasn't really any new content added for solo play or pve play at all, not for a long time at least; but you can be damn sure they added new stuff for guilds, arena and even new stuff to add to the pvp experience out in the wilds. Everyone in my guild eventually stopped playing, and I mean "stopped playing", as there were a lot of "last online a week ago" and "a month ago" on my guild and friends list; even my friend who forged me the sword stopped completely, so it wasn't really long for me to be dissatisfied enough to stop as well, because it was clear that there wasn't enough content for everyone outside of pvp. I know there's a lot more new content now in the game, even for dungeons, but it still doesn't seem like enough for me to want to get back into it; after all, a lot of the new pve stuff was added in for sure, but it was also added in with some form of PV FCKIN P INTERGRATED INTO IT, and to me that clearly proves that the devs just don't care for casuals like me. Everyone does NOT matter in Albion Online.
As one of those niche MMO players I'm in total agreement with your assessment here. I always found that very few games distinguish between PVP and PKing. What most of those hardcore PVP players are asking for is the means to harass, steal and bully other players. I for one would love to see a game develop a different end game model that isn't solely PVP or rely on terrible RNG loot drops for ridiculously large Raids. As any player will discover the competitiveness generated from such is practically equal to the grieving from being PK'd. Yes MMO's are designed to be a forever game but there actual lifespan ceases when you run out of content and there is nothing left to achieve. If there is ever a game that formulates a working solution it might actually become a real forever game. Perhaps if instead of PVP the PVE aspects of the game were to become more aggressive based on the level of resources used to upgrade a multi player city. Each upgrade benefitting all players in some trickle down effect but at the cost of having to band together to defend it. Or even a human vs monster playstyle with wilderness outposts that need to be secured for resources so that new players have safer areas to learn and grow. Making it more about the community then the individual but without erasing the individual and allowing them to shine. Just a thought. Edit: When I said human vs Monster I did not mean in the way WOW exists as player vs player but as a true PVE. Also if the game could just drop the entire weapon level concept it would make a lot more sense. Anyone whose played Hitman is rather aware that a plastic bag is just as viable as any other weapon under certain situations. There's no such thing as a level 90 weapon. Armor is also abused the same way and to be honest heavier armor is rarely ever better then having mobility. (Sorry for the rant)
I'm wondering what the solution is for these types of games besides how eve does it (becoming middle management the game), because the "hardcore full loot pvp" seems like the easy part. The hard part is creating systems for those types of games that encourage cooperation and building communities in spite of being hardcore full loot pvp.
@@matthewanderson5198 in response to the hard part you mentioned: I ask myself, is it really though? I'm a huge fan of history you see and I have to say while raiding an outsider has its quick gain/quick loss gambles the longterm benefits from establishing trading partners has a much higher payoff. How this has never factored into a game has forever eluded me. Perhaps it's because of a lack of the sense of loss. For in a real life scenario when a larger more powerful player encounters someone less so there is no true exchange of injury. Take the iconic 300 movie as an example of this. While a larger army ultimately proved successful the losses incurred were so devastating it's clear you cannot truly call it a win. There is also the amount of self-automy players have in games. Communities are based on the need for cooperation for individual success. To be clear I'm not referring to 'Collectivism' but instead to the need for highly refined trade skills.
One thing that I see rarely talked about in the hardcore pvp full loot crowds, is having equipment have durabilities. That is to say, that "epic-uber-ultra-rare-takes-days-to-get" piece of armor or weapon, may only last a few days, or weeks at best. This would mean two things. One, that uber leveled 'kills everyone quickly' PKer who gets all his stuff from killing other players in 10 minutes will need to KEEP killing players to maintain his gear. And there's incentive to keep grinders alive, as they're the ones "Doing the hard work" so to speak.
As someone who enjoys competitive PvP games, I don’t see a point in “hardcore” PvP MMOs, as soon as you introduce loot levels that persist over time, winning means absolutely nothing. There’s nothing hardcore about an unfair battle. PvP games are some of the most popular games around, but everyone must start each match with only their skills separating each other. And pretty cosmetic-only items lol RPG elements can be part of that, like in MOBAs, but you start each match on level 1. The idea that some people think they’re better than “casual” MMO players because they play “hardcore full loot MMOs” just sounds like school bullies, in my opinion.
The draw to these games is the risk vs. reward. Conflict is mostly avoided until max level, then you have a mostly even playing field. The battles are a test of guild vs. guild, teams of 20-40 people in most cases. One side may be under-geared but more skilled, one side may have gears and skill but lose due to numbers. It's a risk they are willing to take because the reward is literally the clothing off the backs of the enemy, and possibly gaining territory. There's a lot of strategy, tactics and planning involved at the high level. having a small group flank to engage enemy healers for example. Each player has to have a good sense of their own skill level vs. the enemy to decide how much risk they want to put into their equipment choices. Do they take their best gear in hopes that gives them the slight upper hand or should they take the midrange gear and hope their skill level is high enough to make up the difference? That's the point.
@@Scizyr ngl, that sort of decision making seems like a trap, unless I guess you're scared that your guildmates won't give you your stuff back even if you win, or if there's some way for the enemy to gank you and escape from the battle (so even if you win, you won't get your stuff back). If you expect to win, why does it matter? If you think it'll be close, why are you handicapping yourself? If you expect to lose, even if you and your guild bring top tier gear on everyone, why are you even taking the fight? Ultimately, once you boil things down, I'm pretty sure all full loot does is increase the stakes. You can get plenty of the 'strategy, tactics and planning' just from the PvP part without anteing all the stuff on your person. Also, such a scenario has more or less no need for hardcore rules, given it's a pitched organised battle.
@@MogFlintlock Increasing the stakes means greater reward for victory, and gives a more finality to the battle. If you get nothing from victory besides bragging rights it's empty. When neither side has nothing to lose pvp just becomes a circle-jerk.
@@Scizyr While I disagree that there needs to be something on the line (and also that 'greater stakes = greater reward/more finality'), even working from the assumption that pvp needs a reward, 'winner gets everything on your body' is a reward structure with a lot of flaws for both sides (partly as addressed in the video). If PvP stakes with proper teeth is your bag, that's fine, but I don't think that's something most people go to MMOs for. If anything, that's more something I'd associate with Roguelikes.
The dumbasses who think they're skilled players because they killed a lvl 5 newbie with the lvl 40 character are some of the stupidest people in existence.
The biggest issue I have with pvp games in general is how competitive it is from the get go, you must enter the game early to obtain a lead, you must spend a lot of time to maintain this lead and generally pay some money to stay competitive. If you're not in the competitive player base as you might enter late or lose progress then you will find weaker and equal players scrambling for opportunities and stronger players abusing anyone they find and try to intimidate people to join guilds or clans. In pvp, it always feels like when you've reached the midpoint and resetting progress becomes hours worth, we could do literally anything else, for even when getting things together again we might lose it again. The snowball, the downward spiral, if it's too punishing and doesn't reset (like cod, overwatch, lol, mortal kombat, etc.) within a couple of minutes or up to an hour and everyone start at the same time without advantage, then it's not about skill, improvement, or dedication, just about being there first. In many similar games there's guilds/clans, which fill up quickly and each member gets a boost based on either how successful the organization is or how many players they have at their disposal. Entering communities around this reflects this too, if you're not contributing as expected you'll be kicked and replaced so they can find "dedicated members" which creates this feeling as not being welcome, not being a part of something but rather a slave. These games also quickly die out when any sort of dominance has been formed, what's actually the point in playing when there's one group who will kill anyone and can't be beaten, even if you manage to you'll have to face the retribution of the entire group. I believe pvp can work, but in similar fashion to dota and lol games. A short time with an end goal which resets the game. Without clans, guilds or friend system similar to many .io games or forced teams like most pvp games. The thing is, raids are fun, mass pvp can be equally fun (battle royale for instance), but the dominance and the punishment is definitely off putting. I've quit many pvp games simply because I get sick a lot, can't play and nowadays I work and don't have as much time and energy, I'm in my 20s and I can't compete and I don't want to invest an entire gaming session or more to have it ripped away in a few seconds. The most memorable part of mmo games is when you start with your friends and do quests together and attempt raids with a big group of friends, when that is tainted with insta death from other players and being attacked for existing it's a deal breaker
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"If you don't like it just quit" says guy who doesn't understand why his favorite griefing games keep dying.
This is the largest issue. People not letting others progress just because they are stronger. If they could simply play like humans instead of animals it would be more fun.
@@Thorvall715 Yeah but just look at the people up and down the comments defending this stuff and how aggressive and elitist they are about it. There’s no chance at all these people would ever let a bunch of new players actually get established. If they do that there’s a chance that one or more of those players might actually be way better than they are. Since being on top of the ladder in a niche MMO is probably the highest peak many of these guys will ever experience, they’re desperate to hold onto that any way they can. That means nuking everyone and everything else and then bullying people about how “soft” they are. It’s all many of these weirdos have in life I think. Well that, and the hentai/furry Discord servers they’re mods in.
As long as there are no consequences for being a murderous psychopath in games, the griefers will just continue griefing until only griefers remain. This exact loop has killed many games now.
Eve Online entered the chat
@@Quickb3n see the thing about EVE online is that they do have systems that help casuals be able to play and progress despite the hardcore loop most of the game runs off. I never felt like other players were keeping me from playing, and im so casual i actively avoid pvp.
I remember discussion over Tera back when it had this thing called a "Playerbase" that players in the PvP servers were complaining that there was almost no one left there and that most people were playing on the PvE servers instead.
And I was like
"Maybe you max level players shouldn't farm 24/24 just outside the newbie town (where all new players pass by) killing every low level player over and over before they even gets to play the game"
Mind blowing I know....years later, they merged the PvP server with a PvE one, forming a PvE server, leaving the game with no more PvP servers.
Man the lvl60's outside Lumbertown just over the wooden bridge. Those were the days
ah i remember when TERA had a playerbase
it was fun...
Yeah, the early Alpha of New World was similar. The PvPers held most of the map, and if you walked past their towns, they would sneak up behind you while you were fighting a pve mob, OR, when you were doing something you couldn't just cancel out of. My favorite trick (because you had to declare criminal intent to attack everyone, but, if not declared, you could only attack "Criminals " which were players who killed someone else) was the guy who teamed up with a friend, and only ONE was a criminal, so, you either had to have flagged "criminal intent" or you lose because you can't attack the second player. Heck, the PvP players still use one of the "cheats" where they get great def wearing a single piece of high level heavy armor. So they move faster, because they have a "light" armor load, while the other person has a "normal" load, and is slightly slower
To think that could of been avoided so easy Warhammer AOR had level caps for PVP granted it was 10 levels and thats a lot but it stopped people been max level smashing level 5's.
I joined a friend in tera to dual him in said town and guess what everyone saw me die 68 times my little guy stood no chance
"Just toughen up and grind again"
I already do repetitive and tedious stuff with people wanting to harm me in my daily life... with actual rewarding results, it's called having a job. I don't want a second job were my only reward is a graphical change.
The idea of grinding in games is already a mood killer for me. Grinding for something that could be taken away at any moment seems so utterly disheartening and unfun I can't imagine enjoying even a fun grind.
@@nerfer1091 Warframe is one of the very few games where I can stomach grinding because the actual gameplay is so varied and I personally find it very fun. The grind is almost always secondary to just enjoying the game, and I can always just jump into a different game-mode if I get bored, or even a different game as the vast majority of it isn't time-gated.
But grinding for something in a game like, say, Sea of Thieves where the gameplay isn't great and where said rewards can be taken away from you on a whim by someone who's got 100s of hours? Yeah, no thanks, and games like Mortal Online give me similar vibes. Similarly I never found grinding for anything in Destiny to be fun at all because you have to build your entire schedule around the game's in order to really get anywhere.
Tl;dr: grind can be OK, but only when it's not the sole thing driving you and doesn't demand that you upend your entire life to engage with it.
I played an MMO like that for years and I would like to add that if a sheep manages to kill a wolf, the wolf goes into a berserker rage, calls the sheep a hacker and a no-lifer and a zerg and musters up every single excuse he can find for dying, and finally come the death threats.
usually calls his friends to help. Griefers gonna grief.
Imagine taking "death threats" seriously
But as the sheep who kills the wolf, _nothing_ in a video game feels better than killing the wolf. Nothing, nothing a game dev can make, and nothing that already exists.
The euphoria of dominating another player works both ways.
@@Kronos0999 imagine taking a virtual death so seriously you threaten someones life
@@SometimesBuddha Lol, and imagine taking those pixels seriously. I call you stupid and you only become that if you accept it. If you're, say, from a civilization that has discovered fire and have some frontal lobe development, you'll be fine, Twitter user.
As someone who was MMO RTS designer - I have something to say about hardcore PvP player base:
"People play PVP because they love to feel powerful by dominating other people."
"People are cowards."
As my experience with a hardcore open PVP games (both as player and as a designer) stands, this is simple.
- People hate losing things.
- People hate taking risks.
- People LOVE crushing other people.
The only situation where all these things are covered are - power imbalance.
Hardcore-full-loot-MMO is a noob crusher simulator.
Unlike Anime "combat addicts" most of the player base will not look for the strongest players around to challenge them. They will go around looking for easy targets. Even if defeating them gives them -LITERALLY NOTHING-. That is why these games struggle with retention. Because once some players amass enough strength (level/equipment) to make sure they are undefeatable by a regular joe (or at least a naked guy), they avoid each other (too much of a risk, not much to gain... both have rare gear so difference is too little compared to the risk) and hunt the regulars relentlessly.
The situation is not:
I have grinded for dozens of hours to get this epic sword and got killed by this regular guy. I am sad, he is happy. I quit.
The general situation IS:
I have grinded for dozens of hours to get this epic sword and got killed, again, by a guy twice my level in a full set of legendary gear who dances on my corpse and then dismantles my sword for some mats.
Getting killed by someone weaker - less equipped etc. is not frustrating. Because (let's be real here) most people go: "Damn he got lucky, I can take him next time!"
Getting killed by someone insurmountably stronger is EXTREMELY frustrating because it feels pointless. There is no worse feeling than "I lost all I had, and there was nothing I could have done about it. And the fucker didn't even need my stuff."
No need to type all that textwall. The last sentence summurizes it pretty well. Such games could remove levels/item tiers etc and make just everything cosmetic but then the people that play them would realize theres nothing to progress into and that they are playing 10000 people Team Fortress 2 which might be fun at first but extremely boring in the long run.
@@jestergr8 so you mean something like battle royale games?
Loss aversion also comes into play here. Even if the risks and reward are completely equal, we choose to keep what we already have
You’re coming up with some pretty resentful viewpoints on the pvp base. I’d say it’s more of a benign relationship with competition, which is something you see with virtually every online multiplayer pvp game. (Fps, moba, etc). It’s just another iteration of sports. People don’t play baseball because they’re cowards that want to ‘dominate’ people.
@@Czjk293 Keep in mind this argument is only against *full loot* pvp mmos, not all pvp in mmo games. in a game like baseball, everything is made equal except for player skill, making the game a determiner of that. In a full loot pvp mmo, it is almost impossible to fight on equal ground, and players of high skill are incentivised to avoid eachother and only fight weaker players.
Exactly. Hardcore Full Loot PVP MMO's fail because they inevitably become griefer havens. The end result is always a Lord of the Flies scenario, where one player or group that pays or plays more than the others gets all the best weapons and resources, and then spends the rest of their time spawn-killing any new players that enter the server until they quit from frustration. Then that group complains that no-one is playing the game anymore.
Why do so many people watch a video, and then copy exactly what was said in the video to the comments...how are you adding anything to the discussion
The trick is to join a guild BEFORE you start playing. Then suddenly it all becomes about camaraderie and sportsmanship. Not a lot of games pull it off successfully though, guild systems I mean. If you're not into PvP simply don't play such games in the first place, there are plenty of alternatives for co-op or solo-centric experiences. It's a niche. They don't fail because they're "griefer havens", they fail because they're bad games (like Mortal Online). EVE Online and Ultima Online didn't fail, if you think they did think again.
@@FairyRat That'd be good and all, if these same communities didn't either have a caste system of their own, or actually had decent players who'd play with you to begin with.
I remember my time scouring guilds or Discord servers looking for people to play with, only to come up empty, find some really unpleasant and impatient people, or in the case of a survival game I tried playing in pugs with: End up being paired with children.
After playing these kinda games for a while, it really boils down to a very shallow concept that applies to full loot MMO's
You're either advantaged in a fight or you're disadvantaged. alot of the time you can tell before the fight even begins
This can be because of Gear difference or simply a matter of them having more players
For me there's 0 joy in this dynamic, there's no skill, there's no "hardcore" aspect to it imo. It's just a matter of who plays the advantage.
flattening someone I know wont be able to fight back is boring, getting rolled in a 4v1 is boring. It took me a while to realise, but really there's nothing driving me to play more
No one in a Full loot PVP mmo plays to lose, any advantage they can get, they will get. If they can get a max party of plays, they will.
so 2b2t??
Locusts often forget that the grass needs at least some leaf left to grow back.
Well said
Did you just compare FLMMO players to locusts? I find that offensive... to locusts.
@@donfolstar locusts act by instincts, players act by greed and the locusts did nothing wrong its just their nature
I'm stealing this
You can shear a sheep as many times as you like but you can only skin him once.
I remember playing darkfall for a few years, a full loot MMO, the thing that was frustrating about that game is that you often would get attacked by high level players in gear you couldn't even touch, but they rarely seemed to fight each other because the risk was too great. Hence they went around killing all the casual/low tier players, then would complain on the forums that the game was "dead".
It's almost poetic how the FLMMO players are the ones killing their own games. They kill too many casual players, those players leave, and the game dies due to population decline. Truly hardcore, so hardcore they kill the game too, lol.
this game is waiting for the same fate as the Last Oasis
So what is your fix.... I spot a guy in my hardcore pvp game, he has about the same level of stuff equipped as me. Is this a causal who just managed to get to this point, for the first time ever, and Im one of those mythical evil hardcore players, or is this actually the hardcore player, who just started out, and I could save both the casuals and the entire game, from this oncomming menace, who got the insane idea to try and be the best at it.
How is it you guys make that judgement?
@@PerN1660 You're assuming most people are gonna stick around for that long, or that hardcore PVP MMO fans only pick fair fights. You can see what actually happens in games like EVE or Albion, where people who got on early/bought the best shit with IRL money and then camp crafters who aren't built for combat to take all the mats and other loot they can.
The game's are designed for the small amount of "wolf" players but requires a large amount of "sheep" players to function, since those "sheep" players are effectively NPC enemy replacements. Why would a crafter want to stick around in a game where they can't make progress? This is why these games have such small playerbases.
So to answer your first question: There isn't a fix. The design choices made are inherently conflicting; An RPG (games about slowly building a character and gaining progress over time) and world systems in which you can lose a significant amount of progress in an instant with no safeguards just do not work.
If you wanna see more about this, I'd suggest this GDC talk about "cursed problems" in game design, which I absolutely believe hardcore PVP MMO's fall under:
ruclips.net/video/8uE6-vIi1rQ/видео.html
Meh, eve online still breaking Guinness records for biggest PvP battles with the most amount of players participating. The new players who experience loss and come back for more become lifers. If they want to be safe and warm they can go play hello kitty.
@@kiwi3085 The big sad moment for me, some of those Full loot hardcore pvp MMOs sometimes have some pretty fun non-combat things in them, with all the side life skilling or crafting things, and when all you wanna do is craft, but the mega-guild who devoured everyone and everything sees you and just murders you and all you wanna do is craft, but you can't because everytime they see you even if you're out and about they 5+v1 you, and if you even manage to become a pain in their ass, they then decide to put kill bounties on you for everyone to partake in..
..So now all you have after you is the entire server of people who will do nothing but 5v1 you and post kill proof on the group's discord/forums since the only time anyone really does fuck with you is if they go 2+ on you, because that's how PvP/WPVP is done.
...and you just wanna do nothing else *but* crafting, but now your choice on the game is quit or deal with it and be fine being ganked endlessly by everyone... Only for when you quit, be messaged by the people that made you basically quit because you JUST WANTED TO CRAFT
go all
'hey you should come back because you made the game interesting' because they've ganked everyone off the game.
..Specific, I know.
I think there's another layer here that you were simply to polite to name directly, which is that the number of Hardcore Full Loot PVP MMO players isn't even nearly as large as the number of player claiming to be Hardcore Full Loot PvP MMO fans, because once all the naive casuals are gone, many of them quickly drop the game themselves, because they decided it's not so much fun anymore to get beaten up by more hardcore players when there's nobody left to punch down on.
I think they quit because they griefed all the crafters away that made the cool stuff they were taking.
Indeed. . .
Good ole Runescape comes to mind. "PVP" only servers...well guess what? Mr Hardcore PVPer pops on, gets done over twice just stepping out of a bank, doesn't go back. He'd MUCH RATHER beat down on some level 2 doing a quest...Pretty much all "hardcore PvPer's" are just 12 year old bullies who'd rather steal than work for gains. Edit: Point Number Three is that something that costs you nothing is worth nothing to you. There's no real sense of "I made that" in it.
Not sure if it would still be a FLPMMO, but I think that can be alleviated by systems that stop stagnation of the power structure, and make it so newer players can't be instantly curb stomped.
@Kimi Timoskainen This only show your pvp community don't prefer hardcore pvp. Else they wont be fleeing to play other feature that wont have them lose their gear.
I love the phrase "Tough hardcore player", like they are gaming from the siberian tundra, wrestling bears between kills and building their gaming rigs from perma-ice and trees cut down with their teeth.
Im pretty sure the term came out due to the carebears that kick and scream because they lost their pixels. These kinds of games need to be labeled as such, so you know not join them.
ruclips.net/video/OobzqWtrvpI/видео.html
@@nana-fq4jv It's still a pitiful label
@@nana-fq4jv they lost their time, not just their pixels
This is the best "Number of dislikes" joke I think I've ever seen.
This struck straight to the bone with me, regarding me experience in Eve Online. A few years back my friends and I, a group of about 5 of 6, started playing, built up our own little corp, and focused in on mining. It was a fun little thing to do with friends, and we were happy to have a little new hobby. About two weeks into our time with the game, a random corporation that we were sure was just one guy multiboxing, declared war on us, demanding a ransom to broker peace. We didn't have the money or resources, and we told him that, he didn't care. We decided that he probably wasn't even playing in the same time zone and carried on with our mining.Two days later he showed up and wiped all our mining vessels out with a fleet of five cruisers while we were having a nice chat in VC. We tried to fight back, got ganked again, and eventually tried joining a bigger corporation to protect us, but by the time that happened all of us had been burnt so bad we dropped the game entirely. That resonates so hard with the whole full loot hardcore pvp thing. It's what happens out of it. One dude gets jacked, then goes around punching new players as hard as he can in the face, and in this case then displaying their corpses as trophies, for the sake of punching new players in the face and making them feel bad enough to quit the game, full stop.
That was something the devs heard a lot about over the years. Now you aren't a valid war target unless you or your alliance own a structure.
@@Urziel99 That doesnt actually change anything except provide more 'runway' for new players in the hopes they get hooked on the game before the curbstomp happens
@@scmrph Considering how much structures cost nowadays If you are fielding a structure that costs as much as a supercarrier you should be able to defend it beforehand. And if you can't or don't want to you can just use NPC stations or other public structures.
@@scmrph You're making the mistaken assumption that the end result of any player in EVE is getting "curbstomped." Yes, you'll die in EVE at some point, because everyone does. You'll be destroyed in PvP at some point, because everyone is. The fact is that EVE is a game that pretty much REQUIRES you to find a group and cooperate if you expect to survive anywhere outside of secure space, and that group needs to be strong enough to support you. That said, EVE's deeper structures are entirely player-run, and some of the biggest, most powerful corporations in the game are dedicated to providing a more casual, less PvP-oriented experience to their members, and they're typically free to join, thus if you don't want "hard core PvP" you don't need to deal with it.
The point about EVE is that it actually dilutes it's playerbase enough by it's size and zoning that PvP becomes a numbers game. It's about probabilities to get killed or find prey. It's highsec zone is reasonably safe enough for people mostly dodge PvP and it's hardcore PvP players are attracted by other zones.
It technically is "full loot PvP" but in practice it consists of various niches for various kinds of players.
And that is the only reason it is still around. The predators and the prey are swimming in a really really big pond.
The first MMO I ever played was Shade, a full loot mmorpg played on my phone. It was great fun, most of the time, but if you didn't get associated with a strong guild asap you were a hot target for your gear. I got chased around multiple times because I had "decent" gear and even got killed for crappy gear. I remember player killing with my friends and felt crappy about it, it wasn't a guild war or anything, we just targeted a guy in nice gear and surrounded him. I secretly pulled him aside in town and gave him a full set of really nice gear as an apology, better than what he had to begin with. He was super happy about it and said that he had been about to quit because he kept getting killed. I told him to get into a good guild and to grind with friends if possible. I know full well the frustration of getting pk'd repeatedly and I swore off the genre years ago because its terribly toxic. Never looked back.
Aside from the fact that it was virtual, you've just described prison life. That's what these people want. Prison-life simulators.
you and your friends seem like good people. too many PvPers I've seen are aggressive and standoffish, always picking fights, always whining when a fight doesn't go their way,always bitching about how people who don't PvP aren't 'true players'
Damn, I can't believe that the entire Full Loot PvP MMO community disliked this video
You... I see what you did there lol
Wagie can't count
@Dizzy Gear go to jail
that was a mad burn
@@joeh858 Your coping and seething is all the proof we need that Josh is right KEKW stay mad
Considering every hardcore PVP player I've ever met was a massive griefer as well, they would never play a hardcore PVP game without casuals to bully.
This. While not an MMO, Sea of Thieves is another title that suffers IMMENSELY from this problem. And I'm sure there's plenty more with similar issues, all stemming from overly-aggressive PvP gamers with superiority complexes.
Pretty much. Literally every game design decision done in the average full loot "hardcore" PvP is geared towards gankers, griefers and super toxic people and completely against new players. Thus, the toxic players stay, the new players leave, and boom, your game dies because you refuse to budge even a milimeter from your idiotic design decisions.
@@youtube-kit9450 The problem is that they are not idiotic design decisions from a financial pov. The griefers and toxic people are your walles. You want to catter to your walles you don`t care about the smallfish.
The Rust Paradox: Offline base raiding, no groups fighting each other, and players with sniper rifles killing new/recovering players who have nothing but a stick.
100%. I would enjoy PvP a zillion times more than I do if I didn't have to interact with the PvP community to do it. The fun in it for me is testing my build and my skill against someone else's. The fun in it for so many of them is in making their opponent's day as absolutely shitty as possible. They don't play FFA full-loot battle royale games, because killing people and taking their stuff is not enough; they don't have fun until they've made another human being feel *real emotional pain*, which they laugh at with a "GG EZ" and a teabag.
I remember playing Metin 2 as a young teen and being unable to leave the village a lot of times because some max level end game players from other faction have surrounded the safety zone of the village.
Outside of your faction base you were always free to be attacked by players of the other factions even without permission. Which led to non end game players being unable to play at all.
How do people even think that this may be an attractive game model?
All that's gonna happen in Hardcore Full Loot PVP MMOs is that new players can do NOTHING. At some point new players will never be able to progress in the slightest as some guilds will fully control areas and kill any player daring to enter.
It won't be an enjoyable game, it will be spawn camping, nothing else.
ikr wtf
Because the hard-core pvp players enjoy bullying people weaker than they are. They don't care about the enjoyment of other players. They just like ganking noobs even if there's no material benefit because the act of asserting dominance over someone else is the reward.
Literally sociopathic.
@@shadowmetroid18 More like sociopathetic.
"It devolves into naked fights with wooden swords" this is the exact thing happening with EVE Online, players rarely use things bigger than a Cruiser to do PvP. Unless you got a big player bloc backing you, the Battlecruisers, Battleships, Marauders and Dreadnaughts are just there to PvE or Gank, most of the time they're too valuable to lose in a PvP for a lot of people
The big blue donuts have killed any and all semblance of fun in null as well
Hahaha so true. Haven't done EVE for a decade but was so disappointed to get up to a battleship and learn, "naw, battleships are not for battle".
@@fXBorgmeister t1 battleships are, just avoid blinging out the fit. There is this major misconception among a lot of players that you need to spend massive amount of isk to be competitive, but knowing what your doing in a fight an fitting sensibly is viable.
I tried out EVE and realized its not worth playing when I did. Even the beginning zones were camped with griefers and I couldnt leave the base to try out things without getting blown out of the sky.
@@hectorcornejo1468 Unless you somehow got yourself a 1 billion ISK Marauder on your first day no one would care to kill you in highsec.
"You know what's the most fun about real life? It's the possibility of getting robbed and shank'd by some crackhead at every corner. That's the part that REALLY makes it exciting. That's what we need too reproduce in a video game. Except you can BE the crackhead if you want to!" -Full loot PVP MMO developers, probably
these games make no sense for me, i could understand if you wanted to be thief i guess, but hold that as root of your game, no just no, even Assassin's Creed got old
Just like in real life!
You do realize you just made our arguments for us right? This is equivalent to women buying 50 shades of gray etc. There's a big, thick line between fantasy roleplay and IRL.
Good point! And, maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't like the thought of truly ruining another player's day. That would make me just as sad as I would be when losing all of my own stuff in a game.
Many Americans carry firearms for this exact scenario so we can kill someone legally
One thing more about those "hardcore pvpers" is... that many of them are not "gladiators" looking for challange, for good fight and struggle, but simply bullies (no better word is worth using here). They just WANT to stomp others, win, take their stuff, bully them. It is not about fight, it is about dominance for them and and soon as their prefered pray (casuals) disappear - they will also move on, not being able to handle those who are determined to fight back and won't give them those easy wins.
My personal experience in these types of games was that it was about 1/50 fights were actually close or exciting. Every other was a stomp one way or the other.
Of course they don't like the fight because if they did they'd spend all their time playing a fighting game which requires skill because everyone always starts each round at a fair and even point.
I think often what people fail to understand is that they do want a challenge/competition, but they don't want it to be during the fight. When we fight, we aren't really comparing whos better at fighting, but rather who has been better at playing the game so far and building up their character. When you stomp them its not really you beating them right now, but rather you and them comparing what you have each accomplished up to this point. Full loot hardcore permadeath type stuff is really just an attempt to fix the problem of the advantage long term players have over new ones by allowing people to be reset back to try again, building up a new character with what they learned during their previous run, but it isn't a very good solution in most implementations because developers rarely put an incentive for players to work together to take down the strongest players, rather it is safer to cooperate with them and be "safe" under their banner, rather than be attacked by them.
@@comradepoint very interesting point. I would still agree that this "solution" is terrible. If competition is moved to "preparation" stage, then it is test of time/money, more then sill - who grinded msot exp and gear? Out of many things we could call it - it is NOT fair. 2 sides are not starting at the same point. Ijust consider those games to be grind-competitions then. I wouldn't even say that lack of cooperation is an issue - this design is simply unsalvagable and propagate mostly terrible behaviors.
@@frontsquats Exactly. The combat in these kind of games is ass. It really comes down to player numbers and ability to grind like crazy. Grinding in order to compete is just a chore and it stops being fun. You can't do the things you want to because you're constantly worried some other clan will attack you. You also have to constantly maintains lookout and even when there is a lookout corralling the other players to repel an attack is rarely successful. I often take the night watch in such games and I'm usually there when an attack happens and no one ever comes when I start blaring warning to the rest of the clan and so it's usually me and 1 other guys fighting off 10 other players.
Every single time an mmo comes out: "Experience hardcore faction guild pvp territory systems!"
Everyone else: "Why are no pvp mmo's coming out?"
and the only successful games aren't doing that shit lmao, wow, ff14, eso all appeal to the wider playerbase instead of the vocal minority.
albion online does this actually
@@glizzytoucher2301 It can be made interesting.
So simply put: The people that want hardcore full loot PvP MMOs are also their own worst enemies when it comes to ensuring long term survival.
Exactly
I remember playing PVP on a WoW PVP server back in the day when I stilled played and dealing with this. People will constantly migrate to the server or faction that has the higher numbers just to get that upper hands which constantly leaves the populations completely and utterly skewed to magnitudes I never thought I'd see (some WoW PVP servers recently have had Alliance or Horde factions of ~5% or less, while the other was ~95%)**. This leads to newer players wanting to try it out - or even just experienced or veteran players - having terrible levling experiences (Because you can't 6 v 1 a bunch of max lvl people when you're barely a third there.) or just not being able to find any groups willing to do anything or have any coordinated PVP events. So they either switch servers, or just, stop playing. The other side then complains that there is no one left to kill and the cycle continues.
**After doing some research I found some fairly extreme examples of this. There are several PVP servers on WoW that are so unbalanced that they have minority faction populations of LESS than 1%. The worst server I could find has just 25 unique players on the opposing minority faction.
@@BT-ex7ko Yes. That kind of imbalance is just dumb and such an easy problem to solve, that It's shocking it hasn't been solved yet.
no, it depend on the deisgn fo the game. Eve online have over 500m sub and 8m player. And EvE is older than WoW.
The reason thsoes game fail is because they are much more closer to survival skirmish game than actual MMO. Thus having an hardcore PvP aspect kind of KILLS it. It's like taking fornite and making it an mmo. a game that is fun is small skirmish and is all about surviving in a PvP environment will always fail as an MMO who require actual character progression.
This is why EvE have such a unique design down to it's gameplay. It's not a flight sium because that would imply you have to no life the game just to be able to pvp (flight skills). Other mmo try to make it so that stat balance it out but that juts rewarding veteran, and on an hardcore pvp mmo: that's even worst because then you can just snowball like in agar.io were the biggets stay the biggest.
@@flamerollerx01 Server transfers and race changes make credit card machine go brrrr.
I hate those kind of games. It's just ganking and griefing and I don't find that enjoyable at all.
@OverDose Get a life
@OverDose lol I bet you to git good when ganked by player's whit 10 level higher than you.
@@hassankadhim1996 depends on the game, in albion for example you could have crappy t4 gear and fight a fully geared t8 player and still win, if you know what you're doing and use the environment and mobs to your advantage.
@OverDose i would bet money you just call your friends to gank one one player and harass him out of his equipment
The problem isn't that PvP sucks. It's that there is no punishment system that prevents constant ganking and griefing. Just look at real life, if you randomly go and kill someone on the street you'll go to jail. Most video games haven't implemented such systems so they end up as gankfests. That's it.
"We dont need cashuls"
*Player count drops*
"Gasp"
Hardcore players are a joke that keeps on giving. Tarkov is a prime example. They like to bully new players and they scoff at every suggestion that might help actually allow people to get a proper start in the game. They call new players names, camp spawns and steal all their low level bullshit gear they don't need and then all of a sudden players drop, queues shoot up into the double digits and then they're like "WhY gAmE dIe D:??!?!?! WaIt TiLl NeXt WiPe?!??!?!?!"
No one wants to play a game to get ganked and griefed by sociopaths who would get thrown in prison if they did half the shit they do in those games in real life.
I don't believe, at all, that the game has 300000 concurrent players. That's straight bullshit.
@@BullsMahunny the saving grace of Tarkov is that it absolutely can be played casually. Nothing's forcing you to do runs in gear that's too expensive for you to lose and you can do Scav runs. Exit camping, at least to me, seems much less prevalent than it used to be etc.
Nah, open PvP games die because 95% of modern gamers are cry baby complainers who require their hand held at every turn.
@@RichHeart89 you do understand. That isn't casual experience right?. Doing Scav runs, planning and avoiding threats and dangers to farm. Sort of defeats the purpose of the game to, while being ultra non casual friendly. A casual experience, would be logging in once or twice a week, playing for a couple hours, then calling it a day. If you had to spend time getting gud with bad gear, or foraging/farming gear so you can compete/train against better players.
That isn't casual anymore. This is why games like COD, Halo, and later iterations of BF, for FPS games were successful. They are designed for casuals. You can pick up and play any time, with no hassle or worry about planning, strategy, or logistics to your account.
@@yummychips_ it CAN be played casually .A Game that cant be played mindlessly doesnt mean that its a game that casuals can't get into. The game punishes you for playing like a dumbfuck or being to much of a cheapskate on ammo if you go in a highly contested area
I loved the principle of Tibia, where there is PvP, but if you kill someone, you get marked as a Player-killer for maybe about half an hour. In this time, everyone can attack you without the repercussion of getting this mark themselfes, which sometimes led to a manhunt on you, because people wanna have the items from you and the person you murdered. Especially, when the game has spells, which allow you to find a specific player, it could evolve to bounty hunts. Since it was very dangerous to murder players, it didnt happened often, but you always had to be wary, that it could happen, especially when doing stuff far away from towns and other players, where people could risk being an outlaw for some minutes. So it wasnt just a senseless "kill everything around you", it was like in real society, where you can score big robbing someone, but it puts you in great danger.
Funny how such a simple yet effective system was invented in one of the earlier games if the genre
What do you mean, that doesn't make any sense. If all it did was mark you as a player killer, it literally means nothing.
@@thehuntermikipl1170marks you as a player killer and makes it so people can kill you for a bit without being marked themselves
@@animeguardianxx think about it, what does it change
nothing everyone can still kill everyone else without any penalties, or rewards
@@thehuntermikipl1170 The change is that if you kill somebody, you become a target of anyone else, and a free one at that. You get the gear of the one you killed, but good luck holding it when anyone else can kill you without consequence. Your consequence is being a public target
My time is valuable. I refuse to have that “time” physically looted from my body. I agree that it has its place. Expecting a WoW or 14 level of a FFA Full loot MMORPG is delusional though.
Brb i am getting some explosives to break your house doors.
I mean you could also say the same about dying in a Mario level or something lol
@@gagne6928 indeed but you didnt spent 14 hours on that mario level.
And if you did you probably need to take the controller out of your mouth.
@@gagne6928 ...no? wtf, in what world is that an appropriate comparison?
@@sinjin8576 LOL
Biggest complaint about hardcore full loot pvpers: you’re not actually hardcore if all you do is grief weaker players
Yea I agree with you mostly...but I have helped people before only to have them come up quick and become a major nuisance for everyone else in the area. This has happened multiple times and sadly it discouraged me from helping any naked player
Best comment on this topic so far, lmao
No, this is hardcore. Because at first they grief you, but you could endure it, overcome it, and after that you started grief others. And not whining like a girls - "they kill me, they kill me", take courage, a rag :D
@@ayoheynns1327 hardcore what now, getting spawn killed and taking it is hardcore what now
@@ayoheynns1327 Nah fam, I'll just stick to actual Hardcore PvP games like SC2, where as I get better so do my opponents and the game is skill based versus gear based. The true hardcore PvPers are the players who fight enemies who know they're coming and stand a chance, or fight in an arena where everyone there knows what they signed up for and there are no surprises. Its skill versus skill.
Everything is just griefing and griefing is for no skill bitches.
"The hardcore PvP demographics tend to be incredibly aggresive and confrontational...'' big pure truth spoken.
Just as "The casual demographic tend to be hostile and insulting to any PvP player" as seen in this video where apparently every full loot player is grouped up and represented by the worst of them.
>Revel in ruining other people's enjoyment
>Nobody wants to play with you anymore
>Gets called aggressive and confrontational
>Wonder why everyone is so toxic to them
@@TheHuffur That's actually true. both sides seems to believe the worst among them are actually the whole demographic.
@@Methillo The funny thing is, im usually mainly a crafter/supporter type of character in these games and so im often the victim so its kinda hilarious to be put into the griefer box.
I just see the importance of PvP to keep the game from getting boring after a few weeks or however long it takes when the PvE content gets repetitive. I also like when there is a 'reason' for doing something, crafting a bunch of armor or weapons only to sell them to a NPC or basically for a loss on the material costs in a AH doesnt really make sense to me, why bother? Especially when every player is likely to just craft their own stuff anyway!
I want to craft stuff that people use, even if that means there is full loot PvP and the stuff I make is more often than not just "Generic Sword #12". Its a good feeling being needed and appreciated, something I think drives a lot of crafters even if they dont admit it or perhaps even realize it but I doubt there is a single crafter that would prefer a game where only their close friends or random guild mate only now and then requests something to be made over a game that has a active player economy and they can actually sell their stuff because people use it.
All that said, I do think these games fail because they are too open with their PvP, it still needs to have a basic structure like faction/s to keep everyone from going paranoid and stop Dayz syndrome from developing. There need to be fairly large groups of people you KNOW you can trust for the open world PvP to not spiral completely out of control.
@@TheHuffur I mean they do have a reason to, if you get griefed by a PvP player, it's not absurd to be paranoid of other PvP players too. It would be weirder if they weren't paranoid.
At least 90% of my PvP encounters in games have involved a player that was a much higher level griefing and/or camping a low level player that has no way to even make a dent in them. Then, when someone shows up that could possible take them, the supposed 'hardocre PvPer' runs off into the distance.
I typically don't pick fights when on PvP servers, live and let live but I will say it was satisfying to camp the campers. I've chased people across zones just killing them over and over again without mercy after they spent who knows how long doing the same to myself and/or others. I did get into fight with players around my own level (and really enjoyed it), but that was far fewer than either being the subject of someone's bored afternoon as a campee, or pursuing someone who had destroyed someone else's afternoon (either by camping them or killing all the NPC's in a supposedly safe zone so they couldn't even start playing the game).
I do want to make clear that I have zero issues with a kill and done policy some players have where a higher level moves on after one-shotting a low level.
It's also one of the reasons I just have no desire to play on PvP servers now - there isn't any real world PvP, it's just the strong taking advantage of whoever they can find who's weaker than them, and then scurrying off when a real fight arrives. And if no one is there to help them, there's a good possibility that the player being griefed is just going to log and not come back, effecting the future of the game as a whole.
Full loot PvP has zero charm for me - I can't see the benefit from it, only a magnification of the cycles I've already seen over the years, not to mention the idea of spending hours getting an item only to be looted by someone I had no hope of beating. That only seems like frustration and lack of investment over time. There's a risk/reward ratio and then there's just a stacked deck and most of these environments seem to favor the stacked deck.
The people who I've met that push for these types of games don't think they'll be at the bottom of the pecking order. Nope, in their minds they'll be at the top taking from everyone else. I'm sure there's a minority who are different (I personally do like PvP in theory) but it's not great enough to stop the game from bleeding players as PvPers cannibalize their own playerbase just to feel powerful.
And then when the game/server types dies, people actually bitch about not having PvP anymore. Whose fault do you think that is? Maybe not griefing people into uninstalling an hour in because you're an asshole and helping to build your community would lengthen the life of your own playtime. But nope - it's grief till they quit, points on if you think you made them cry. The whole thing breds a terrible toxic attitude, which is a shame, because there are good things that come from a PvP game world.
This is so true. Albion online… First few hours of hard grinding.. and my friend who introduced me to the game, took me to Avalon,, where we were camped by a full built ganker who we had no chance to even leave a scratch on, chased us till the end of the map quite literally, killed me with one blow,(well my friend escaped coz he was smarter i guess) took all of my hours worth of stuffs and laughed in the chat after. I was about to rage quit after that. I play ONLY gathering in albion after that because I dont want to raid others and make them feel as awful as I did nor do i wish to throw all my hours’ work into some lesser-brained ganker’s inventory because if that happens again I would definitely delete that game without a second thought.. And people wonder why those games are not “as popular”
dunno. Haven't really seen that. To be fair, most of my MMO PvP experience is just from WoW. I've played dedicated PvP games, but that's different.
Rather the opposite: In classic WoW some people were getting really salty that there wasn't enough PvP. Players played like I do: live and let live. You see a hostile farming mobs, you leave them alone. Neither one of you needs more drama and time sinks. Griefing only leads to more griefing in a blood feud between players.
When there was a griefer, people would inform others and look for a high level player to take them down. Usually a situation that resolved itself since the griefer had to deal with someone who was actually good at the game and on the same level.
I think this is a weird syndrome in games without enough players. I played retail WoW where you don't have open world PvP. I tagged myself in for it and got killed by every passing player since I was the only target they had.
I can sympathise with full loot. I don't see the appeal at all.
Runescape has a sensible variation of it where you will keep valuable items and lose other stuff. It's still too much risk for me, personally.
I've played Reign of Kings which was a full loot game. Not an MMO, though. Gear took about 5 minutes to set up. Hard part was unlocking the prerequisites for it (get wood to mine rocks, use rocks to mine iron). I didn't really PvP, but saw people organising fights. Inexpensive gear means you can suit up and pick fights with people while managing your losses.
The more expensive the gear, the less interesting it becomes. Case in point: In that same game the killing blow for my friend group was when someone hacked the server and deleted our fort. Building that one actually took a lot more time than crafting a shirt, pants and a pointy stick. Nobody started the game again. Everyone uninstalled.
@@Wyzai Sorry, didn't see your reply till now.
When I talk about WoW PvP I'm talking about the OG PvP servers that I actually started playing on back in 2007. All of the behavior I mentioned in my comment is based on my experiences playing on that server along with the actions of players on PvE servers.
Back when I started, you joined a guild in part for protection. Anything outside of the first two zones per race for your faction were PvP, meaning you were flagged to any level of the other faction. There wasn't a choice. Camping low level 5 mans was a huge thing back in the day and corpse crawling into a dungeon portal wasn't uncommon, especially for the more remote ones. It is was a very rare event that I was ever attacked by someone close to my level.
Due to a lot of factors, including server/faction transfers that Blizzard originally said they would never offer, Ally on my original server died. Our AH was only a couple of pages long, period. As I considered my original toons PvP, I choose to reroll on a PvE server to not have this happen again. There, I saw high level players flag themselves and stand in low level player's AoE to try to get flagged to gank them along with repeatedly killing quest hub NPC's to stop progression. I can't count the number of times I was just flying through a zone and getting a whisper from some poor leveling person asking me for help. And as soon as I showed up, guess what - the higher level griefer fled or ran after I killed them once.
I can say that players on the original PvP servers became bitter if they experienced a lot of ganking/camping without help and tended to do the same to new/leveling players as a form of "payback", continuing the whole cycle.
Classic players tend to remember things with rose color glasses, like how the large scale world battles only happened because there were no BGs originally, or how when PvP was implemented into Classic, a lot of PvP servers struggled to maintain balanced population because that became a quit moment due to severe griefing/camping for many players. PvP in general is going to be a different animal in Classic vs OG WoW. Most will have a live and let live attitude because people just want to get things done.
I like a lot of aspects with the ideas of PvP. Even to this day, I still get twitchy in certain areas, like as Ally going down the road in Duskwood because that was such a huge spot for us on my server. I feel like it created a lot of strong bonds and I miss having things like guild bounties. But there's a reason why PvP servers became so completely unbalanced - no one wants to be on the side they think is weaker. And CRZ drove the final nail in as the system just meshed people together so we wouldn't feel "lonely" without any mind to the factions. Nothing like being in a zone suddenly surrounded by over a dozen max level Horde players on a server where the /who list for your faction barely hits fifty at times.
I rerolled to PvE (though I did play some on my old sever) right when the gates to ICC were opening to even have a chance to raid at that point (not to mention getting into the portal to begin with due to multiple Horde guilds camping it made even worse by the quest phasing there). WoW was at its all time high - there wasn't a lack of players, there was lack of players who were willing to be somewhere that they even had a chance of losing once.
"hardcore Full Loot PVP MMO's" has evolved in the Battle royal genre.
it remove the bad part of loose lot of hours of progresse, and improve the good part of have lot of interesting PvP fight.
I love(d) Last Oasis. It's a hardcore MMORPG. Me and my clan were having a grand old time, then we got rolled by a bigger clan. They had to use a lot of rare materials to do the damage they did to us, which was meant to be the dissuasion from doing it. But they were so big and bored that rolling people was the only fun they had in the game.
I lost everything I'd worked for up until that point and had to completely change the way I played the game, I never enjoyed the game like I did before that point.
I stopped playing for months then came back at a new season. After playing a couple of hours I had a nice little base set up, but sure enough like the big kids kicking sandcastles at the beach, I was attacked. I managed to escape. But I was just left thinking, why bother?
First month of Last Oasis was the best MMO-PvP experience I've had in my life. And then inflation happened. Nothing really mattered when amount of resources in circulation was enough to last 100 years of constant worldscale pvp.
Last oasis was the best game I ever played. Simple as that. But the devs have simply ruined it.
There are ways around it, but if you don’t like to use guerrilla tactics then it’s not the game for small groups.
Yeah I tried this zombie world game once. Installed it, logged in, made my character ... and as soon as I entered the world I was almost instantly killed with a headshot from a sniper. No worries I respawn. Headshot again. And again. And again.
Then I uninstalled the game. That was my experience with full PvP MMo's
@Aggromemnon that shit is just so sad lol
Stupid lame skill less spawn killers, they exist in any game that has pvp elements unfortunately, even in fps games. For me playing those games I would generally only engage a player if they engaged me first, zero reward for killing someone who has just spawned in and doesn't even have worthwhile gear to loot.
Yeah I don't mind playing games that are hardcore and lose all the time but to get killed at the point where normal games have their tutorial sessions is just dumb.
@@dunxy the upside of shooter that it us round to round basis so even if they are spawn killing in the next game there will be none on an mmorpg its not
After 23 years of MMORPGs I can say that people that call themselves hardcore pvpers are actually cowards with average or poor skills that hide in groups of friends of better gear to grief people who are not looking for a fight and are not prepared for it. The classic "hardcore pvper" is a griefer with 2 friends who ambushes a gatherer or someone fighting a mob.
In Archaege the true hardcore players only attack farmers and traders. Than when own a ship, the have the most fun in destroying it. When there came safe zones for the casual players, the hardcore players became very toxic in the forums making it very casual unfriendly for especially younger player. Glitches where use to destroy carts and houses. The moderators responded very slow to gamebreaking glitches. I finally left after the great overhaul changing everything you were used to as a trader.
@@WaterisjustWet Same actually. The trade changes chased away a big part of the paying playerbase
This is basically what kinda killed the game Conan Exiles. Farm stuff for weeks and lose it in few hours after getting raided by a huge endgame gear clan, or start the game, build your first base and get raided by a huge endgame gear clan
@@nukecorruption
Yeah, I really, REALLY liked the idea of an online game based in the Conan universe but...I either spent days doing boring tasks or getting raided by some random asholes which...yeah that's sort of in the spirit of the harsh world of the Conan universe but that doesn't really make things any more enjoyable.
I miss original UO (before rep system) and doing actual duels.
I'm, a filthy casual myself, and I don't do PvP even in regular MMOs, mostly because I simply can't put in the sort of grind to be competitive in PvP for IRL reasons. An MMO where I perma-loose everything every time I die? No thanks. That'd be way to demotivating and frustrating to me.
Same here. I've dabbed in PvP in WoW and ESO and it was fun-ish for a short time because I was with a bunch of guildies with a common goal, but it was never enjoyable outside of that. I prefer PvE story, exploration, crafting, collection, etc.
@@nathan43082 Case in point, it was only fun cause you were doing it with friends. The minute the friends left so did the fun. MMO's generally suck for pvp to begin with, pvp is generally only cooperative to a point and MMO's work best when cooperation is at it's max.
@@DKarkarov Pretty much.
Item loss stimulates economy. It makes crafting and gathering work. Supply & Demand.
@@kerenton5897 Items are not "lost." They are transferred from one character to another in this situation. The incentive to craft does not increase, it just moves from the taker to the takee.
I crowdfunded Legends of Aria and was so excited to play.. logged on.. got ganked by a team of 5 red player killers, lost all my stuff.. never been back.
A fair fight and a challenge is one thing, ganking is another entirely.
and thats the point, nobody likes loosing, so ganking and higher lvl farming lower lvl is what happens similar did happen in battle star galactica online game, was actually fun...for the part that anywhere pvp, i was always looking as lvl 10 agains lvl 300...was fun...
This is what happens when these Devs that want to make "EVE on ground" don't actually check how EVE does things. It's possible to make one but you have to go around it in a right way - though it'll still stay as a niche game.
I might be made of different stuff than...cuz one of my favorite things to do as a solo/ duo is to piss off large clans, sometimes I break in and steal stuff from their furnaces, sometimes I just Chuck rocks at the windows and doors until someone comes out so my friend can blast them from the side, grab the loot and run
Thing is this type of game incentivize that behaviour, would you bet your entire loot and hours spend getting it in an even fight? No you wouldn't and even if you did you'd eventually lose and resource to that kind of behaviour.
The solution to the full loot hardcore pvp is just to make it a battle royale.
This is why battle royales are bigger than most pvp mmos.
such a good take, underated comment
Actually had a similar thought. With this video and the comment from Ashwynn Newkirk I was thinking, "Well, what if the game wasn't an MMO, but instead a single round in a Battle Royal?" Fixes the issue of permanently loosing something you've spent hours grinding for because you're going to permanently lose the item when the match is over anyways and it's not going to take you hours of grinding to get the item, but it will take effort and planning to achieve it (and perhaps a bit of luck depending on the Battle Royal). With permadeath and losing your gear it still has a bite to it, that feeling of, "Well shit," while the winning player gets your items and might get an upgrade for the next player they have to fight. Plus, with Battle Royals it also fixes the issue of the top dogs avoiding each other because they *have* to come into contact with each other eventually. Someone has to win.
@@divinkitty9452 Very cool elaboration on this topic. And if player wants a more hardcore battle royale, there's escape from tarkov where you actually can lose your gear on death, probably one of the reasons why this game is seeing its current success.
this can work, an mmorpg battle royale where there's a time limit on the server and there will still be punishment for PKs(like getting imprisoned for ? month and all your items confiscated by the bounty hunter) but there should be items that can make the PKer able to hide his karma points(or hire a PKer or manipulate someone to PK your target) and those who got PKed will be eliminated until the next server restart or go to a different server, there will still be GvG and castle defense and the last man standing will win something in the real world or a nice permanent tradable skin(this can be like an NFT when I think about it lol) or a mount but what if your whole guild get to have the last players left in the server? I think guilds can organize tournament themselves or they can go battle royale on each other and tag team the strongest in their guild
word to Eternal Return; basically this. drop in, gather and craft equipment, fight for resources, kill other players to level up and get their rare gear + mats
PvP games in which you die, get up and get back fighting again are way more fun. The threat of losing all your progress or getting punished for fighting just makes people cowardly bastards.
Agreed.
Yeah, you don't have to convince me. I have *zero* interest in "hardcore full loot PvP MMOs". Absolutely none.
Why? Because gaming is something I do for fun. To relax after work. And having to worry about losing everything I've been working towards at all times *is not fun*
It is okay to be a casual. But why play mmos?
@@styxzero1675 So I can play 99% of time alone, thats why people play mmo's right?
Also Rust exists and is already almost perfect in terms of a pure PVP experience
Rogue likes are kind of similar though. At any moment you can lose almost all of your progress but that just adds to the tension
@@gagne6928 I think there's a difference between Rouge likes and MMOs though; specifically, you can build up a lot more in an MMO before losing it all than in a Rouge like. Especially if the MMO also has grinding mechanics; I don't think most Rouge likes make you farm a boss 20 times in a row to get a sword or weapon. A Rouge like will get you right back in the action; an MMO will take much longer if you lose all your stuff.
As someone who has played a number of open world PvP with varying levels of full loot, mostly because I liked their other systems (Rappelz, perfect world, Granado Espada, Rallos Zek etc.) the game very quickly became a fight between the big guilds and other big guilds and/or whales and their guilds. Everyone else in those guilds was a predator and anyone not was the prey. So your choice was either to only do things in large groups, or spend thousands of dollars. Especially fun when there was cash shops that let you purchase items to avoid dropping anything, so even if you took down the whales you got nothing out of it.
You are correct. "hardcone full-loot mmo" aka "Ganking mmo"...is fun if you are the tops dogs ganking everyone else. Everyone else quickly leave the game.
Yeah, hflmmo is not about a fun fight is about killing in anyway necessary. We'd do that in tibia all the time there were always full blown wars but we'd always use any mechanic we could to just ruin the enemies experience. Ganking while they were grinding, even syncronizing logins to ambush players it was fun not gonna lie, but it eventually dies out.
bingo. The problem is trolling, ironically, requires a consenting partner. I can withdraw my consent to be trolled by simply logging out and leaving. Enough people do that and you end up with a game where it's not even worth being a troll anymore because you're not getting any reward, heck you're not even really getting any game play. It takes a pretty sad and desperate person to log in consistently every day hoping one new person finds out about your game from reddit or a youtube video, downloads it and makes an account, just so you can go blast them and teabag their corpse. Then the guy says "wow, the video was right this game does suck" and because they have almost no emotional investment at that point, uninstalls.
The thing about "hardcore" MMO's always die out for the most avoidable reason: player frustration. A large part of this is because of a purposely-designed system of large power gaps that will ALWAYS reward those who abuse, exploit, or just mindlessly grind the game 12 hours a day.
Full-loot combat systems don't anger players just because they lose everything on death: it's because skill, in the end, will never be enough to ensure you "win". New World is a perfect example of why how a combat system that is presented as "hardcore" yet "fair", is purposely designed to encourage zergs. This is because the loot, in the end, isn't the point of a full-loot MMO: it's the false sense of superiority you get from being allowed to grief anyone you want, however you want, as long as you're more powerful.
As far as solo players are concerned, consider this: by the time you're able to easily beat someone in an open 1v1, you're clearly already past the point of wanting the gear they have, so it's essentially just needless robbery for whatever money, potions, etc. they may have. It's borderline malicious, and exactly the kind of audience "hardcore pvp-focused" MMO's are intended for.
"You cannot kill a player so hard their account deletes itself"
Imagine if this actually was a thing
"Hey, did you heard about this immersive hardcore PvP MMO called Sword Art Online…"
heh. In the days of MUDs and such, it was a thing. Servers that had that feature though tended to not last very long. But yeah.. if you died by a player's hand, the account was autodeleted and you had to create a new one.
In eve it actually already happend. That's the reason they added newby protection in specific places, because some playersenjoyed nothing more than killing newbros in starting place.
in games like Last Chaos where dying makes you lose like 20% of your total earned exp, it was definitely possible to de-level and thus be essentially self-deleted
It is sort of a thing on some minecraft servers e.g. HCF, you get banned like 3 days when you die. I guess technically also a core feature of One Hour One Life
You know that meme made by Owlturd/Shen Comix where a *pink slime tries to go outside of his box* and then get punched so hard, it becomes even more introverted with a thicker box encasement? Yeah that's why.
This was my experience in Albion in a nutshell.
"Hmm, the materials I need to progress further into my learning tree have to be obtained from PvP enabled zones. I'll just go to this dungeon with a couple guildmates..."
(Party of fully armed players just stomps us all and I lose the tools I brought with me)
"Never again" (Uninstalls)
Meanwhile Guild Wars 2 is just like "Well, I'll just go kill some time in the Battlefield while I wait for the new season to drop. I can drop out any time and as long as I make myself a tiny bit useful I'll gain some merits without losing anything I have on me, so why not"
@@ZorotheGallade True story gw2 pvp is the only pvp ive ever actually enjoyed. Being on even playing field armor wise and having all skills and trees available is the most player friendly pvp ive seen and it doubles in usefulness for low lvl players who want to know what their class abilities will be when they hit 80 and practice on dummies.
Same reason why the competitive fighting game scene when never really become the mainstream.
@@ZorotheGallade I get it. You don't like to lose. When I play I treat it more like an adventure with friends and if we lose we lose that time. Next time we play we can try something else and have a different experience.
Best pvp I have had has not been in hard core games, it actually discourages pvp. Games were death means little encourages you to risk bad fights, going against 40 people with 10 is an epic fight and occasional winning vs these numbers is epic, but full loot I would never do this fight.
yes the pk also risks losing everything though they usually team up and attack solo players. I think the difference is the way games treat gear. If you got ambushed and lost a legendary gear set that is devestating but if the gear is basically generic and easy to come by you just go back to your bank or house and get another set. At most 20 minutes of lost time and you can also have fun hunting Pk players. It does suck for new players though as they don't yet have spare gear. That is why there are usually noob areas where you can play safely.
best pvp in the open world i can remember was back years ago in deepholm in WoW on my alt shaman and me and a horde ended up doing multiple duels
we both won 1 time each and after many near death
one of my best pvp memories
I would actually love a game that's mostly MMO co-op PvE, but at any point in the game another group can walk up to your group and issue a fair challenge with a prize pot at stake, or within your group anyone can call for a duel. An advanced system, not something archaic like in Fallout 76.
*How to make it fair?*
- Each player has a "challenge rating" attached to them which goes to determine how much the stakes are in favour of one or the other side. The less fair a fight, is the more the side with the advantage needs to put in the prize pot in proportion to what the other added and the less reputation/exp/dogecoin they're awarded, such can go in the negatives;
- Factions in the game sponsoring you will encourage playing at a disadvantage or with a handicap by offering an additional bonus;
- Challenges can be ignored at a small price in reputation and the amount lost is also weighted by challenge rating down to nothing if the challenger is way too strong and definitely out just to bully you;
- Spam prevention is offered through a cooldown system in the frequency you can issue challenges and a group or individual can be challenged, the size of the maps and the "any time at any point" not including large hubs;
- Challenges can be friendly with no stakes and those can be issued at a much lower cooldown.
Another option would be to make a game which has an open pvp portion, but said portion isn't presented through guns and blades, rather _market warfare_ : raiding convoys and caravans, mass buyouts, information gathering, espionage and sabotage and hiring goons and grunts to protect your assets while managing your notoriety as to not get raided by the equivalent of invincible town guards if you're too efficient. Players can opt in to taking a 'boots to the ground' role in said market warfare, taking part as one of the individuals doing the various errands, either playing as a predetermined grunt for higher difficulty but lower personal stakes, or as themselves with higher stakes but presumably lower difficulty due to the better gear. Tasks can be scheduled so you can say trigger a convoy raid while you're offline so the world keeps moving and changing and other people will always find a challenge in bringing down your Tycoon, instead of being something like Rust or Conan Exile where your base can almost be considered inert and completely at the mercy of the enemy when you're logged off, because turrets are a joke.
but with full loot you fight harder, youre fighting to keep everything you have on you.
Try out Vigor or Badlanders theyre looter shooter battle royales. Theyre kind of what hardcore full loot MMORPGs are like.
@@TheKrid44 One of mine was in WoW too lol.
right before Cross Roads, my buddy and i were coming back from an exotic pet gathering expedition.
from the corner of our eyes we see something very odd... a Human in way better gear than us, we actually tried to avoid him, but he came at us...
So being hunters, 2 low levels (a blood-elf and a troll) vs 1 high level human turned into 2 low levels and 2 rare OP pets against 1...
we started by sending everything we had at him lol. he attempted to flee, but we gave him the chance to walk away already...
he used every thing he had to give himself some leeway on us, popping potions and skills left and right, while my buddy was running a direct line behind him in a way distracting him and keeping him locked in battle, i broke away to mount up and head him off... he never saw it coming.
I remember back in the day (200...8-ish, I think? Pretty sure it was either before, or just after, Bethesda had bought the IP) an American/Russian partnership of Fallout fans managed to cobble together a multiplayer FO game by kitbashing FO1, FO2, and some netcode together.
It went live at 9am (my local time), and was pretty fun and enjoyable. Then, around 1PM, a group of people from a certain Fallout fansite were made admins of the American server, and by about 4PM, it was basically unplayable for a normal player.
Why?
Because those "fans" didn't think it was hardcore enough. All the stuff said in this video about "not destroying dungeons so other people can't use it", and "not making it so hard to get equipment that no one bothers", and "not killing players so hard that their character deletes itself"? Yeah, they did ALL of that. In a matter of hours.
First they made it so you lost all your equipment upon death. Then they made it so you lost _XP_ on death. Then they made it so that dying put you back to level 1, no matter what level you were when you died. THEN, finally, they made it to where if you died too many times, you respawned in a literal kill box, surrounded on all sides with massive turrets that would fire on anything that moved inside the box, insuring that you could NOTHING BUT die.
These same people were also the ones standing at the entry point of every town on the map, kitted out in full power armor and armed with gatling lasers, mowing down any low-level player who happened to dare to enter town, of course.
Then they wondered why no one wanted to play the game they spent so long working on.
I don't think there is an argument against your point. The evidence is overwhelming. The most popular MMOs, BY FAR, are not PvP focused or "hardcore" but a healthy dose of PvE with PvP as well. Most people don't go to a game for it to act like real life where you can get screwed at every turn. That's fun sometimes, but for most people it's not fun for a long time.
The point is, PvP is supposed to be something extra you do for the accomplishment of it or some optional rewards.
If PvP, it is a playstyle FORCED upon you.
Even if you were the most competitive-minded player, even if you ate and drank and breathed PvP and absolutely love the "thrill" of having a fight waiting for you behind literally any corner...there is no opting out. In a good game, if you feel like doing PvP when you're doing PvE you can just pop into an arena or a PvP zone and scratch that itch. What would a PvP player do in one of these hardcore games if they just...felt like NOT PvPing one day? The answer is Not Play, since he does NOT have an option to NOT be a competitive PvPer.
Well... if I wanted to play real life, I wouldn't be playing games at all. Devs need to understand that realism is good but to a certain point. At the end of the day, it's a game and players will always find a way to exploit mechanics, be efficient, etc. That's why even in real life there are systems that prevent these things lol
@@Anonymous-ek2rh According to SteamCharts, Albion does an average of 9k over 30 days. Final Fantasy 14 does 38k. Elder Scrolls Online hits 20k. I mean, the evidence is clear. Non-PVP focused MMOs do better. As a feature, PvP is great and I think if you want to be a top MMO it's one that should be part of the game in some capacity. As for the loot, I personally would not enjoy either getting or losing good loot in that way. But I would just avoid the PvP in a game I otherwise liked if the PvP were set up that way. PvP is the last thing I start doing in an MMO. That's why I haven't played Albion. lol
@@Anonymous-ek2rh the only thing that hard disliked about albion is that the server is in the US. As an asian its what made me stop playing because I lost some fights where it was latency issues
@@Anonymous-ek2rh Only reward i need from PvP is the death threats and other insults from opponents, it feels really good when someone is so furious they starts to spew insults via private messages :3
"Full loot hardcore pvp" should be read as "camping spawn, and ganking newbs"
its part of the game loop, if everything is accessible then it lose it shine very quickly
Minecraft 2b2t in the nutshell
don't forget the "convenience" cash shop to help you gank more often
sounds like shit, i hated being camp'd in world of warcraft playing on pvp server, so fuck these games LOL
@@jonathansoko1085 a cash shop makes even less sense in this type of game.
no one is gonna buy anything for their inventory if there is a constant risk of immediately lose it.
and if you go the route of "buy this to prevent player looting" you just lost the core of your game loop and your "game" if you can evne still call it that, is now hobo simulator..
The biggest problem with the hardcore PvP crowd is that they always cannibalize each other. There is an old adage in EvE Online that goes "You haven't won until your enemy has quit playing", and that's absolutely true. The only way to ever really win in a PvP MMORPG is to frustrate your opponent so much that they stop playing. It's the only game genre where this applies.
I pulled out on EVE after learning of the "Never fly what you can't afford to lose" motto the hard way.
And I really liked my new mining rig that I managed to earn. :(
Even just the insanely hostile way that hardcore PvP MMO players speak and act outs them as the bullies they really are. There's so many other kinds of PvP game but you never hear stuff like "carebear" from those players no matter how good they are.
Want a fair fight? Carebear. You think getting ganked and having all your shit stolen for hours at a time isn't fun? Carebear. Wait, where are you going? Come back so we can kill you more. Fucking carebears can't handle our hardcore game. Damn where is everybody?
They say they like the competitive and risk/reward aspects but then they spend hours camping some low level player who can't fight back even though the game gives them absolutely nothing for it. They're not PvPers, they're griefers who want a griefing game so they can grief. That's the highest form of entertainment to them, making other people miserable and angry. Small wonder that MMOs based around bullying other people into quitting don't last long. It's a game genre that caters specifically to psychos.
Then the most pathetic part is once all their victims have left and there's no one weaker to pick on, they become the prey for players who are stronger than them and end up folding in the same way. They don't like getting ganked and camped and griefed either, they just like doing it to others.
@@VideogamesPang I myself don't do PvP, but logic dictates that they're the minority. I doubt you're dumb enough to believe every EVE player is a bully as an example, the ones that are, are just the loudest.
@@VideogamesPang lol I was just in the steam discussions page for eve and that exact scenario unfolding there right now. Bunch of people showting "carebear" at the slightest provocation like some sort of triggered SJWs 😂😂😂
Tbf though I feel like eve doesn't bear the full brunt of what is discussed in this video, because there is a lot of pve activities to do. I played for just over 100 hours so far and only got attacked like once by another player. Admittedly, that is a relatively small amount of time.
It's sadly true. I enjoy open-world PVP because I enjoy that feeling of danger in the open world but most games I've played you find that folks rush to high levels and then camp the newbies until they quit as if that's even remotely logical for the health of a game your spending money on.
Really, all you have to do is look back to the MMO guidebook: Bartle's Taxonomy. Full loot, hardcore PVP MMOs appeal overwhelmingly to the Killer personality type.
Killers are only countered by Explorers but explorers aren't interested in hardcore full loot PVP MMOs. So you're not pulling in Explorers to counteract your Killer glut.
Achievers HATE Killers, so they're kept away. Without these other two then the Socializers will only have the small cross section of Socializers who find the social aspects of PVP builds interesting.
So you are literally appealing to only one kind of player, and actively keeping away most of the other kinds. These kind of games might be fun to the niche, but they do not draw in new blood.
From what I've seen, the type of player who enjoys this kind of PvP-everywhere MMO, the main thing they like about it is basically having the power to make someone else quit the game. There are endless competitive game genres, but they're not interested in PvP games which enforce a level playing field. They want to be able to one-shot and corpse camp some helpless newbie until they log out. That's the experience this player is looking for, that's what they think is fun: griefing. Then they wonder why their games die.
Maybe Mr Hayes here isn't saying this kind of game is bad, but I'll go ahead and say that any game which explicitly caters to psychopathic bullies is definitely not good.
Yeah you're right about that, never have I found so many horrible people concentrated in a game before in my entire life.
Get this people actually like to be challenged..you fing carebears were prolly the first in line to get your shot...
@@keanuwick1082 LMAO of course FLMMO players are anti-vax. Jesus Christ, like pottery.
@@Yepmyaccount Shocker. Carebears who cower in fear of the thought of out wtting something other than pre programmed A.I(oh the horror!....actual real competion/challenge!), also cower in fear over something with a 98% survival rate. Would it be a stretch to assume ur non binary and vegan as well?
Shall I introduce you to: EVE online 😂😂 I love space games but I also lost my trust in humanity in there
“Above all, video games are meant to just be one thing: Fun for everyone.” -When you need to ruin a player's day to give other player some joy you're essentially dooming your design to fail
Why are you quoting that? You know it was you who said it. and on top of that, not all games appeal to all people. Trying to appeal to everyone leaves you with a mass of goo that only appeals to people that only like goo. Trying to appeal to everyone can leave your core fan (or who wouldve been a core fan had you not been unwilling to take the risks) estranged. Is Risk bad just because it doesnt appeal to every
Monopoply player? No. Its just different, fully realized and therefore will never be as popualar outside of its core fanbase, who will adore it for its originality.
@@BusinessPlot You are taking his comment too literally. MMO's are video games, games are supposed to be fun. When you adopt a game design that is not fun to all but a very small number of people don't be shocked when you only have a very small number of players. That's his point.
@@BusinessPlot there's a difference between 'not appealing to all people' and 'having a design that actively encourages griefing and bad experiences'.
@@DKarkarov fun is subjective, some people don't really mesh well with pvp, some people like it, some people play it to gank, some play it to overcome challenges, some are just masochistic.
it really depends on the player.
@@BusinessPlot you want to see how a niche game almost screwed itself over. Look at Tarkov. EFT in the current wipe to slow down the no life chads increased the unlock of the market to level 20. Meaning a level 10 had no access to sell their goods or purchase better gear for their character. Meaning if they lost every kit they went into, they were fucked with no means of replacing that gear. This lead to a bit of a outcry of the casual base (those who had less than 30 hours to invest into the game) forcing Nikita to adjust the level at a later time. However what made players stay was the Scav Karma system. This allowed casual players to play as a non faction scav with a RNG kit. Since the Karma system effected how other NPC scavs and area bosses interacted with you. This actually made scav raiding fun as players who went in as scavs teamed up to fight PMC players who were better geared.
Pvp MMOs with full loot systems run counter to fun. A player can easily go play a FPS, a fighting game or any other type of competitive game and get a far better experience than playing a pvpmmo where griefing and ganking is pretty much the norm.
They die because pvpers don't want fairness, they want victory. At all costs.
Well, soulless safe pixel collector sims are born dead. Enjoy your boring skinner box I guess
@@metagen77 Final fantasy 14, a boring skinner box has 24 million subs.
What's that? that's the sound of your argument bursting into useless flames around your 15k open world pvp game.
*Clown*
@@IShallCallHimTaders Next you will tell me all about how great 50shades is, it's a bestseller after all. Hey want to know THE ultimate game with the most players and profit ever? Lottery tickets. Fn idiots.
@@metagen77 first you say pve games are unpopulated dead skinner boxes. Now if it's popular it's only for idiots and sheep. You must be a blast at Thanksgiving. Get off my feed you pedantic mope, I have nothing to gain from knowing you.
@@metagen77 you got destroyed, dude
This reminded me of Dark Age of Camelot in 2003. A new open PvP server went online so I decided to roll a new character on it. As I spawned into the newbie area, a 10-ish level character from my own faction was there gleefully destroying all new characters who arrived. I sat and watched the individual do this for a while, realizing there would be no reason to join a team for realm vs realm on the server if your own teammates would gank you.
I don't recall anything like that in my time on DAoC.
In fact I specifically remember getting a "You cannot attack a member of your realm." whenever I'd accidentally toggle on combat. You could challenge players to a duel but I've never seen someone indiscriminately killing players of their own realm.
Just went and read the PVP server ruleset and you were right. You can attack any player of any realm, just not party or guild members
That's retarded. I get why those servers were dead even when the game was at its height.
@@PiPArtemis The Mordred server was open PvP and cross-faction. Cotswold was a bloodbath. Not full-loot though.
This would be the Time of Andred and Mordred for PvP servers. For Mordred, I knew and were friends with the Heaviest Hitters in the game. Cottoncandycannon The Warlock (My Best Friend irl), Demolitionman The Warlock, Xavokal The Necromancer, Rollindabones The Bonedancer, Crawdad the Animist, and the list goes on. RvR for the 3 realms was crazy enough, but on the PvP Servers besides the main cities in Albion being Camelot, Hibernia being Tir Na Nog, and Midgard being... I forget the name haha! Other than that, every Town and open world area was fair game. Pwydwen Keep and the Bridge was always insane, as well as Outside Cotswold. I loved every minute of it, because you could put the enemies on a Friends list, level up, then see if they are online and go kill them once you caught up to 50 and had Gear. Buffbots were hard to come by, you could buff up but would need an insane hiding spot, as many people would find them, Kill them, and it's free Realm Points. Such a Catch 22 yet so good in the right ways.
I played Albion for nearly 2 months and it was actually funny seeing players being proud for killing you while you were GATHERING and they just ganked you with a few more friends, people being toxic for killing you 4v1.. its just sad. I know this is the way these games are supposed to be, but imo you can try to have both and try to balance, because at the end of the day most players work and have a regular life (work, family etc) and its hard to lose everything you worked for a week by some randoms ganking people, thats not even a fair fight. In the case of Albion my only problem was higher tier gatherables being only avaiable in full loot zones and that made me quit the game.
Lol, your comparision fails tho. IRL, you don't respawn. with a bank that you can still use. In a full loot mmo, ppl have gotten used to taking an hour worth of stuff to grind all the way to the bank in order to have nothing to lose. So, say RL was a full loot game and you work 8 hours a day. It wouln't be smart to work 8 hours a day without visiting the bank once per hour. Because if you die and you lose all of your 8 hour worth of money made, than that's really your fault for not creating an assurance pattern.
It's ok if you don't like full loot mmo's, but if you haven't spent 100 to 300 hours on them, you will never understand why they are awesome.
Also, the reason they fail is because they are all made by indie company: period.
Finally, if you get killed 1v4, just join a clan and fight back. The ppl who have ganged on you have done you a great service by letting you know indirectly that you need more friends in this game.
Just don't take gear you can't afford to lose 🤦♂️
@@RealBigDeal22 I think you missed my point, I just pointed out what makes the game unplayable for me and for most people. I know how this system works and its what makes the economy of the game flow.
I know these games are not supposed to be played solo, and I did join a clan, but I was just explaining my point of view on why this genre of MMOs are more likely to die and its not only because they're made by indie companies
Ya, it is frustrating. The thing about albion that I don't like, is that it's so complicated. There are a ton of armor and weapon combinations that don't work. And it feels like I never get better at pvp I just continue to die. I like the island system, but it gets old being forced to play in the dangerous zones just so you can earn the most silver. The cool thing is if you get a good guild in the black zones then you are on discord and you can ask your buddies to help you if you get ganked.
Were you know as olievera-arc in Albion online ?
Anyways even i play AO a lot but eventually it felt just repitatative and boring, not to ignore the fact, that full loot kept making me lose stuffs daily. Even i quit AO.
The problem I had with pvp focused MMO's is that the userbase generally acts EXTREMELY elitist and see everyone else who isn't like that as "part of the problem". Like it's my fault that the hardcore pvp mmo genre is dying because I'm not toughing up. Just as much as the majority of video game reviewers are hurting "their" mmo's because they just state the fact that it's a nieche genre that's not for everyone. Just like Josh said in this video. The Userbase for such games (not all of them, I know. But seemingly the majority of players casuals will face off against) act extremely aggressive towards anyone they deem "not tough enough".
Because they are more aggressive they tend to be the 'vocal' minority. Demographically speaking 90% of those 'casuals' they're trashing on just don't have any desire to post comments and are just as happy to move onto other things. This in turn leads too many developers to think that the bulk of these forum posts are coming from an accurate representation of their player base and make adjustments that only appease to the loud few. If New World wasn't in it's testing phases the 'feedback' would've just been people dropping the game without a word.
if you think PVPers are elistis, you have never seen how PVErs are, they wont even consider haveing a PVPr in their raids, while PVP players love haveing PVE players in PVP since it creates better pops or a bigger player base in the PVP.
and yes PVPers are vocal, cause 99% of all MMOS are screwing up their PVP by only focusing on PVE
@@weybye91 agreed, but i don't think mmos need to implement full loot mechanics to make things interesting for pvpers, they just need to fix server lag and introduce new content which is hard work for devs.
one of the coolest "loot" mechanics for pvp I've seen was eso's telvar stones but they're lost behind garbage servers which encourage proc sets to overcome.
@@TheJoYo that's not what I'm saying, I'm just pointing out that OP dosent know the diffrince bettwen elitest or passionate players.
But if Devs want to hold on to players, they need to cater to all the type of players, instead of alienate one part of the player base ie PVPers.
Take any MMO beside New World and check how big the diffrince between the diffrint groups, and you will see that PVPers are either small or non existing cause Devs dosent do anything for the PVPers
@@weybye91 The problem is you cant cater to hardcore pvp/pve players who want to grind and earn their accomplishments through persaverance and time investment AND people who feel all time/effort gated content is mean and exclusionary.
When I was a teen I read this novel about a Secret Service agent protecting the Vice President called "Big Shell" or "Inner Shell" or something like that. There was a subplot about her brother who was developing a video game that predicted the MMO genre. In fact it even predicted griefing and spawn camping. This was in the mid 90's, a couple years before even Ultima Online came out.
To predict griefing and camping you just have to know human nature
yeah, not that hard to predict, honestly.
Still, it shows that the author bothered to actually think about what they were writing.
What really amazes me is that there are still developers TODAY that don't seem to know about these mechanics.
There were already lots of online Multi-User Dungeons (MUDs), starting officially as far back as 1980. These were text based at the time but were the original MMOs with standard class archetypes, leveling, grouping, and on many, plenty of griefing and spawn camping. Nothing teaches you typing faster than having to fully type out your actions as soon as you see "An enemy wizard approaches from north."
@@vincentcircharo8259 yeah, but a middle-aged thriller author in the 90’s probably wasn’t fragging on quake.provide.net a whole lot
The "hardcore" side of games seem to be confused by the concept of "I'm not having fun, so I'll stop playing"
I have played DCUO and Star Trek online for years and I can tell you first hand that the pvp crowd are generally the most toxic, unfriendly and utterly hateful people I have come across. If they win they are horrible and if they lose they are horrible and if you don't want to pvp you will be berated in the most vile combinations of poor english you could imagine. It's almost fun to just watch them be so self damaging actually but it's just awful to interact with these people. I can't imagine a game centered around their tastes lasting very long frankly.
"berated in the most vile combinations of poor english"
This phrase is gold. :P
i always forget that STO has a PvP mode and it's a surreal feeling up there with seeing someone's P2W complaints on the reddit (because that would imply that a competitive meta exists) to be reminded that it exists.
the game is like guild wars 1 in that it's effectively a singleplayer RPG that you can play with friends.
Hey lol we aren't all toxic jerks, I like dank souls pvp but you won't catch me sending hate mail. And if I keep stomping someone, invading or being invaded, I like to give them some drops for being a sport, or offering help. I've seen a fair few dank souls players who are the same. Idk how you found such bad sports lol
@@2ndbreakfast29 I said generally xD And I am talking about MMO's for the most part not souls games where the players are all a special sort of masochist. The hyper competitive type tend to go for pvp in these sorts of games and with that type of personality there are universal negative traits. It no different than anyone else though you have positives that help in one way while having negatives that hinder in another. The negative of being hyper competitive is you tend to be rather toxic, be it repeatedly attacking someone you can keep beating or berating the people who do beat you. These actions tend to make the hyper competitive sort more driven to compete while others it really puts them off. Different folks different strokes as the saying goes.
I gave DCUO a shot until it i hit the content paywall, surprisingly the high level guys there just leave me alone for the most part and had more fair fights with people around my level. i had some wins, some losses but they seemed to be good sports about it
I haven’t played a ton of MMO’s, but as someone who plays a ton of fighting games, the idea of games like this is strange to me. You grind for hours and hours to get good gear and stuff just to lose it from a single battle. It just seems like a waste of time. If I lose a match in a fighting game, the worst that happens is my online rank falls. I can start another match and play again. It’s not as if I lose a combo that I’ve been practicing and I have to spend ten hours in training mode to relearn that combo.
I am also into fighting games as well. Fighting games also grant you the entire toolkit of a character right out the box where as MMOs require you to work your way up to get those skills.
thats the idea, if you don't want to lose your gear, Don't lose. is as simple as that.
and if you do, then go back from zero and start all over again with stone tools.
i cannot describe the adrenaline you feel when you are at the verge of defeat or victory there is no other game that can make your hearth race, and put your emotion into its highest level, being winning.. or losing.
BUT i do concede that is not a gameplay for everybody, and the only way to sustain such gameplay would literally requiere your body and soull, playing 20 hours a day.
Nowadays, a barely have time to play so i can see why hardcore pvp isn't a sustainable to keep the game alive.
(speaking from personal experience playing conan) i do love that game,and i wish that i could play it all day but... not only servers are dead but also i don't have the time due to real world needs.
@@TheTournesoul a lot of games in general give you the filing you are talking. The "adrenaline rush" of fighting games, old cod games, gears of war, strategy games, the list goes on. It's just the "I lost all that work I put into my character because xyz came out of no where". Not just because "I lost". You can "lose" in a lot of things and feel shitty. It's "I lost everything I worked for" is the feeling ppl hate the most. No one is bothered about losing, it's "losing the stuff/time". I agree "losing all my stuff is fun" isn't for everyone. Even if one COULD spend all day to get it back, WOULD you?
@@supersonicguru1 speaking purely from personal experience, there is no other game that makes me feel like losing isn't an option because the obvious amount of work that you need to re-do if you do.
for example, i was being raided by a big clan and we been fighting 6 hours of pure madness, we were literally 2 minutes from being wiped, and almost had a hearth attack, but in the end, we survived, NOTHING compares to that.
So yes, even if lose everything I WOULD keep grinding back from zero, or i would want to.
Sadly, i don't have that much free time anymore is not possible to sustain that kind of gameplay for long.
@@TheTournesoul You see this is the problem, why would I spend hours grinding a game for an item I can lose in a few minutes, why dont I grind real life. Nothing compares to achieving things irl.
Learning to for example change your brakes on your car, also saving money and being able to fix shit yourself is far more rewarding than fighting in a game for 6hrs
As a huge PvP fan these games often lose me at the "full loot" part. As you explain, nothing's fun in farming equipment to lose it like this. I think the best way to implement a reward for PvP would be to loot crafting materials of the same quality as the gear your "victim" is wearing, and maybe some currency. It goes well with a player-driven economy.
What you don't get is in these games you don't farm for loot. You never go PvP with anything worth losing, so losing everything you have on you is never a big deal. It is simply a mindset change.
Everyone is basically pvping in really cheap and easy to replace gear (or gear that is relatively trivial for them to replace) so the PvP is far less about being gear carried and far more about raw skill. Once you feel more confident in your abilities you can risk slightly better gear for an edge. The fact you can lose anything though even if its minor gives you a massive adrenaline rush that you simply do not get in traditional PvP.
For instance in EVE (this is how it was 7+ years ago when I played, not sure about these days) people would suicide gank in super cheap ship loadouts, then INSURE their ship for more than the trashy ship was worth, so when they ganked you in highsec and died to the police they actually made money off the ship loss because their whole gear build cost them less than the insurance they got back from losing it.
Of course if you actually prepared for ganks in highsec you were quite immune to them. Simply tanking out your ship and not carrying around a shitload of valuables meant the gankers would leave you alone because going after you lost them the opportunity cost potential of a higher value target slipping through while they were resetting their operation.
If you really like PvP for the skill aspect and don't just want to pretend you are good because you are gear carried you should give a full loot game a try. You may just like it more than you realize.
@@JathraDH Nice assumptions about me... I've played EVE 3+ years and enjoyed it a lot. And that works particularly for EVE because you pilot ships and have insurance. So it's relatively easy to only go out with stuff you can afford to lose and replace. Also note that EVE is kinda like what I just described. When your ship gets blowed up, part of the cargo and materials can be looted but a portion of that is destroyed: The guy that killed you can't just go away with your whole ship.
Also I'm a huge partisan of passives/character build playing more into your character's power level than levels and gear, so nope, I really don't like being "gear carried". But in an MMORPG part of the appeal is to work towards cool things that make your characret a bit unique. You know, the role-play / community part. So I find it uncool if you can't ever show off your rare stuff by fear of losing it. To me, repair bills and loss of time are enough to had to the humiliation of having lost. Plus PvP hotspots get lame if you get out naked from your first encounter. Again, what works in EVE doesn't necessarily works in a more traditional MMO. The scale and gameplay alone sets it apart.
@@Biouke Except EVE is just literally a copy of UO, which was the original traditional MMO. So yes, the stuff works just fine in a traditional MMO. You could show off stuff in UO as well, in your house.
You just didn't go riding into battle with it unless you had balls of steel or were so rich you simply didn't care.
And we did the same stuff in UO that you do in EVE. You went out in cheap crafted armor/weapons that you didn't care about losing. This is how every full loot full PvP game works, not just EVE. I was simply using EVE as an example.
You left your rare as hell weapons worth more than most houses at home in their display case though to show off your wealth.
I apologize about making assumptions however, just the way you worded things really sounded like you hadn't even tried the games.
Really the hard rule about these types of games is you never go out in stuff you are unwilling to lose. EVE is a bit more hardcore than UO was though because you couldn't blow up peoples houses in the game. You could kill people inside their houses, but you could not loot the house itself.
At launch you could break into peoples homes and rob them blind but that pretty quickly got nerfed, even EVE doesn't allow a random person to break into your hangar and steal all your ships. You could still sneak into someone's house and wait for them to drop something then loot it before they could lock it down however, or just murder them.
I will agree to disagree with you on the definition of "full loot' though. To me full loot simply means when you die everything stays on your corpse for the taking by anyone or anything that passes by. In UO the monsters themselves would loot your corpse and all the loot would stay in the monsters inventory until killed then it dropped off the monster.
I do like EVEs system of blowing up some items though, gives a bit more realism to the game, especially since destruction of a ship is a violent process.
@@JathraDH That's a definition of full loot I can agree with and adhere to with some limitations.
As an example, to me it's essential that players in a MMORPG must fight for resources at some point, and that carrying goods across the map must present a risk. I also have a hard time calling MMORPG a game in which players can't interact with and influence the persistent world. Territory control, defense and upkeep to secure prime materials for crafting should be driving the game's life more than spoon-fed high-end content. But I also think there must be some use for PvE and that each player profile can have it's niche in the game.
Again, that's one thing I like with EVE: Even if the game is centered around PvP between player-owned factions, there's still a place for socialisers, explorers, achievers, etc. and the systems all feed into each other so everyone is useful to the community.
Most fun I had was with simple exploration or cov-ops ships, didn't engage directly in PvP but I was scouting, tracking, finding targets for WH warfare, popping the occasional interdiction bubble, then my mates would raid in and give me a cut from the profit :)
@@Biouke Yea UO had persistent in world housing back in 1997. Player run towns, ghettos, thief/murderer towns, strip malls etc. You could run vendors out of your house and setup a shop or use it as a base for nefarious activities. There were places in the game you just flat didn't go. You would walk through and they would look deserted and suddenly 10 people would come out of the shadows and relieve you of your possessions.
It did not really have the built in territory control that EVE does but it certainly had player defined no go areas and guild wars and all that stuff.
Loot was also heavy and did require transport to safe locations so moving cargo was a risk, although not as much as in EVE.
Most of the modern hardcore full loot MMOs are actually attempting to flat out copy the golden days of UO. The real issue is that UO was a mainstream MMO and there were not really any casual MMOs at the time so the community was forced into that shared space and while it had the pop things did work beautifully.
These days though the community for such games is far more niche so you are just given a higher concentration of the bad apples vs them being spread out among a more diverse population of gamers like in the old days.
This leads to new players, who have not experienced such an environment and aren't used to how to deal with it being instantly alienated/griefed and driven away keeping the community niche. If they were allowed a bit of time to orient themselves I think the community would be much bigger and better as a whole.
It's literally just a bullying simulator. The strong more experienced /target the noobs. I think it reflects poorly on the playerbase. Seems like they just want to powertrip and use the " we're just hardcore" as a mask to hide the fact they get a kick out of bullying. It's like a martial art instructor wailing on the kids in his class during demonstrations to feel powerful. It's not hardcore/impressive, it's just pathetic.
When it comes down to it, MMORPGs have been nearly killed by developers pandering to PVP-addicts. They used to be aimed at players that were into exploration, quests and cooperative missions, but in an effort to broaden the audience, they started catering to people that would be happier playing MOBAs and Call of Duty - And those "new" players would make life miserable for the traditional players. They would destroy the player-base and then move on to the next game. Now we have "idle" RPGs...
It's not just pandering, it's also a whole lot easier to make. Quests and puzzles and backstory, balanced PvE spaces and fun boss battles all take a lot of work to do right. Setting up a world-sized PvP arena and just letting the players whack each other silly is much cheaper and quicker, for the same or better money (at least in the short term).
I disagree that the audience that likes full loot PVP would be happier playing MOBAs and Call of Battlefield: Modern Duty. Those games exist. If they would enjoy them more, they would go play them. But those games give an equal (more or less, depending on P2W micro transactions in the game) footing to all players. They don't want that. They want to dominate others, they want to make others sad, and they want others to keep coming back so they have people to make sad.
Any game with a matchmaking won't appeal to them. Any game with an ELO or ranking system won't appeal to them. Any ranking system worth a damn will keep your win/loss ratio at roughly 1 once you get to your 'actual' rank, no matter how good you are, unless you actually are just without peer and no other player has the skill to reach your rank. Smurf accounts exist in games like LoL for challenger tier players to stomp on gold players, so those challenger tier players have super high win rates, but eventually they get to their 'actual' rank and the wins and losses level out. This leveling out is not what hardcore full loot pvp MMO players want.
They want to exercise dominance over other people, not have a fair fight. They don't want a challenge. They will never go start a different full loot PVP MMO that already has a well established oligarchy of players because they want to be part of that oligarchy, if they aren't it's not fun, and they have zero desire to face the challenges of breaking into that oligarchy from nothing.
@@bighairycomputers Fair enough. That's probably a much more accurate analysis of those types of players than the one I suggested. That being said, the problem remains the Developers pandering to these people. If the developers didn't cater to them they would likely go elsewhere. It's almost a "chicken-or-egg" situation. There's an old saying : "Don't hate the Player, hate the Game" - Which always just made me think that there _would_ be no game without the Players...
The reason I play MMOs, and games in general, is that exploration and cooperative experience. Going out in the world and grinding some bear asses and iron ore for a crafter to sell to a warrior for his next dungeon run sounds great to me. But when those same warriors are just ganking me instead of paying the tax at the shop, it loses fun. I do the work and get penalized for it.
@@foogod4237 This, 100%. It's laziness and incompetence. A lot of video game devellopers are simply too lazy and too incompetent to come up with storylines and worldbuilding. So they take the easy road : the sandbox game. The whole "Create your own adventures and stories" bullshit.
I had a discussion once with one of those who "demanded" a full-loot hardcore PvP game from AGS, which basically bottled down to that *they didnt like full-loot hardcore PvP games, but they believed they wanted one*.
Now, I played a lot of Rust back in the day, and given the right community, it's pretty fun. Rust *has* full-loot hardcore PvP game play, which means you can craft loads of high tier stuff, build intricate bases, fight epic battles and have a whole lot of insecurities about your safety. So, even if you dont like EVE because it's space-crap, or battle in MO1 is "bad", Rust is still a pretty decent game, when you're trying to look at full-loot hardcore PvP games.
You start up a server, you play a bit, gather, craft, build a base, hunt other players.. then you die, lose your stuff, gather new things, craft some more, safestock stuff in your base, you die, you lose everything, you go to base, you find out it's been raided.. now, shit happens, and depending on your server community, either that's considered griefing because you dont destroy/raid bases, or you'll hear people laugh at you in chat - either is fine, if you've signed up for it, but personally I find the community that has *some* rules safeguarding against griefing is more fun. Dont destroy someones stuff for the sake of destroying it, imo.
Now, I get it, I've found LOTS of people saying that if you dont like the game then uninstall, etc., and ok, fine. But *why* are these people, who *have* a full-loot hardcore PvP game *in Rust* , not playing Rust? WHY are they invading *every other MMO* demanding that game *too* become Rust?
Anyway, background on the topic given - the guy I was talking about *hated* Rust, because it was so boring to always start over from the beginning all the time, to always spawn with just a rock and be killed on sight by the same player who killed him, because that player now has his gun he spent 40h to gather, loot, craft, and it was *so good* ! It turned out that the guy *absolutely hated* full-loot hardcore PvP games. He just wanted the benefits *against others* of a full-loot hardcore PvP game, where he could be strong and shit on newbies and people who just died and had nothing.
He didnt want to play a FLHPvP game. He wanted *everyone else* to play it, while *he didnt have to*, while *still playing the same game*. Essentially, he wanted a game where he could force-grief other players.
The loudvoiced minority *doesnt* really want a full-loot hardcore PvP game. They just want to grief others. That's the entire point of such games. They dont want the combat, the stress of insecurities, the thrill of death, the "restart every time you die" deal. They want *to inflict that on others* and be safe from it themselves.
Those people arent looking for an MMO. They're looking for options to grief. It's as simple as that.
Actually, I played a lot of Rust too (I still would, but gaming takes too much time) and what I love about the hardcore part is the necessity to secure your base (by programming an electricity based system - one of the new features, for example) and to always be on the lookout. I personally enjoyed surviving dangerous trips or stealing loot from someone, but I didn't see it as griefing or inflicting pain to someone. Of course, getting killed isn't fun, but avoiding death is! I think you're overly generalizing the playerbase, or maybe I am the one who's wrong. Defeating someone doesn't necessarily mean griefing
@@mitlandir5761 they said loud minority
@@eagletgriff Ah, you're right! I see it now. I'd skimmed over that part. It's probably true, there are people in Rust who exclusively offline raid you
There's plenty of people like this that just want a game to power-trip in.
@@mitlandir5761 I've played a few of these hardcore full loot pvp type games and it seems like most of the larger clans did nothing but offline raid.
In my experience the kind of people that want this design are really into it as long as they can gank noobs, once someone who is better than them comes along, gives them a fair fight, and whoops their ass they will most definitely cry out to the skies in rage and call the other person a cheater. They're passionate I'll give them that, but the best they could hope for is either playing EVE or that a big MMO creates a little safe space for the hardcore pvp crowd.
I would call that being obsessed
That's basically the entire wilderness pking scene in OSRS. And their solution is to beg for more pvm stuff to be shoved into the wilderness to up the defenseless players for them to hunt.
I wouldn’t say they’re passionate, just insane.
A passionate person would absolutely share their passion with others. An insane person drives others around them insane, *nobody* likes an insane person.
the bigger problem isn't just that the hardcore pvp mmo crowd is smaller by itself. the percentage of people who want fair fights and not just rofl stomp the opposition is a tiny part of the already small hardcore pvp mmo crowd. facing that kinda environment, new players, whether casual or not, are quick to quit.
This type of game sounds very similar to the PvPvE games like Robin Hood and Sea of Thieves. I ran into the EXACT problem you laid out. Me and a group spent almost 2 hours solving an island riddle and were in the middle of loading up our ship with the loot we worked so hard on getting only to get raided before we could even get off the island. It was so soul crushing and such an awful feeling we didn't play again after that. Which is a shame because I liked so many other things about it but hated the idea of being raided after doing PvE stuff.
I barely do anything that isn't a quick voyage for that reason. The more time you spend doing a vault, Ashen Lord, or whatever the more time there is for a larger crew to crush you.
Sea of thieves isn't to bad with such a limited number of ships on the map. I have Raided and have been Raided, its called sea of thieves.
@@Dufoth and that's also why the game only has about 12k to 14k people playing it at any given time these days compared to less hardcore games that work with the average players time in mind and have millions of players daily, it shows what people actually enjoy and find fun.
The Division 1 & 2 also come to mind at times.
Dark Zone has best gear and PVE enemies, you clear them and go to get your gear out only to be ganked by a group that doesn't even want your stuff.
well the game is called Sea of Thieves....
I had a discussion with an old friend that stuck out in my mind here. I used to play Lineage 2, he used to play World of Warcraft. Back then, I described Lineage 2 as a hardcore game where anyone can attack you at any time and get your gear (remember: this was back when you gear dropped pretty often on death even when you are not pk-flagged), and he wanted to watch me play it, so I invited him over and booted up the game. At some point, this conversation came up:
(another player runs past me outside of a town)
Friend: So, attack him!
Me: I don't really want to.
Friend: Why not?
Me: If I kill him I'd be PK flagged, and this close to a town if someone hunts me down I'd drop all my stuff.
Friend: So, it sounds to me like Lineage is less PvP than WoW, since the system itself discourage you from pvp.
That conversation still stuck in my mind. Most players in Lineage 2, indeed, almost never flag unless they are with their guild-mates for safety in numbers because of gear loss, while you can generally PvP opposite faction in WoW without much fear. Despite this, L2 is the more hardcore game. It's kinda interesting how that dichotomy works.
It works, because it is good design. High risk-High reward. Just like in real-life.
Exactly this. In a full loot full PvP game there are consequences for actions. If you want to grief someone, they can get their friends and grief you back. As such, in my experience I find the communities typically overall far less toxic in full loot games (at least they used to be before they became niche). Once there is no accountability for actions people will just be total assholes, just like when you give them total anonymity online.
@@vasiljambazov not really high risk if people will just pvp as a group, seems a lot more annoying if you are out in the world and you get zerged by a group of people
Lineage 2 never allowed dropping of items in pvp unless you were red. you only dropped gear as a white when dying to a mob.
but you are right in the latter part of your post, the Lineage 2 pvp system was flawed, as there was no defense for turning red, anyone could hunt you down with no recourse and if you defend yourself you turn more red. all they needed to do to fix this was make people turn purple when they attacked a red player.
@@Scizyr Ah, yea UO didn't have that problem. If you hit a red first you turned grey to them and they could freely kill you back without further penalty.
Even in EVE, which is pretty hardcore in general, most players seem to prefer spending their time mining, or doing missions or exploration. The whole economy is built around that.
So even in a hardcore PvP environment, most people will spend most of their time doing regular PvE stuff, just with the constant threat of some random dude suddenly murdering you.
EVE is somewhat clever about it. With it's size and zoning. They basically make the pond so big and diverse that the prey fish and the predator fish don't find each other as much. So as "pray" aka "casual" you can somewhat manage your probability of being killed.
If that was not the case, EVE would not exist anymore.
@@catriona_drummond That's what Albion online is missing, it's full loot pvp but the pond is the size of a small puddle, i keep trying to get into it because the crafting is pretty enticing, but each map zone only has 4 exits/entrances at the North south east west poles... So in the black zones (like eve null zones) there's literally just groups of gankers camping near each exit waiting for you to come running through... This makes gathering IMPOSSIBLE unless you join one of the bigger guilds and have literal armed escorts to protect you and the other gatherers. This means you have to have a SCHEDULE and adhere to strict times so that you can meet up with your guild.
It's impossible to have a life and play games like that at the same time.
EDIT: "impossible to have a life and play games like that at the same time" Unless you're one of the gankers, then you can take someones hours of grinding in seconds i guess...
It boggles my mind how an entire community cant recognize the faults and criticisms of themselves. Even if you look at less MMO-style games, hardcore PVP like Rust has the exact same issues and they wonder why no one new will join. Its the most toxic and aggressive community. I tried Mortal Online for a couple months once, trying to be a blacksmith and sell weapons. I never made it far because "Hardcore PVPers" (a group of 5 who all sucked at combat so they rushed you as a gang) killed me every single time I tried to mine something. No one fights their equal in "Hardcore PVP" and always kicks down then wonders why no one will come in and play and their already small community got smaller.
Rust and PvP ARK are the perfect examples of this. I like PvP, and specifically joined PvP servers because I thought it would be fun, only to realize that... you don't really get to do any ACTUAL PvP. The only people doing even PvP are people at end game, when they all have max gear and are in big groups. The rest of the time is just trying to play a survival/crafting sim with the added hinderance of people who can instakill you constantly destroying your base, killing you, and taking all of your stuff when you can barely threaten them, if at all.
I remember reading an article about a game that was billed HCPVP. Within about three months most of the servers were dead. On each of these servers a group/guild formed that was made up of those people who could game 6 hours a day M-F and 12 hours Sat + Sun. This meant they got all the best gear and loot early. If other guilds had a stronghold, they would attack at times when the other players weren't on (NPC would defend the base but not as well as PCs) and destroy the base, forcing the other guilds to start over. Eventually it became clear you want to play, you join their guild, and the PVP died!
So that' s why games liked Holdfast were praised for having great communities even if it is full of National Socialist larpers. The game is mechanically terrible that you have to learn how to take it very unseriously in order to continue playing on it. The advice that I always give to noobs in the game is just to enjoy it or quit before they can' t get back their refund. It is a game where competitiveness is reserved mostly for losers or players already comfortable with its lousy mechanics.
bro you can say that about pretty much any MMO nowadays, they all die. But we have albion, eve online, ultima, even tarkov to some extent all of which are still thriving today.
This is why I can't enjoy games like Rust, the basic concept is good, the problem is like a lot of games people ruin it. I had a similar experience in Rust, I build up a nice base and was having fun, then I logged in and somebody had destroyed the base, built random crap all over, hidden tool sheds all over so we couldn't even clean up easily, and robbed everything. And I've never played Rust again, I just logged off and uninstalled it.
These games all have the potential to be really fun, but theres also some anti-social asshole who'll just use it as an excuse to bully people online, or who just gets their jollies off making sure other people aren't having fun.
When I was younger, I thought this was how MMOs as a whole worked.
It's for that reason it took me until my mid-20's to actually get into one.
That episode of South Park implied WoW was PvP.
I would love to play a pvp focused MMO with full loot. The only thing that holds me back is that this genre in particular attracts the sh*ttiest player base. Mortal Online 2 looks amazing, but I know well enough that feeling would be fleeting within 10 minutes of walking out of a city. I'm all for the gamble of losing my stuff I worked for, but in reality, it's never just a one and done when a group of griefers have you on a conveyor belt. "Join a guild". No.
That really is the problem. It's not that you get killed in these games and lose your cool stuff, then switch to your backup stuff and fight to reclaim your glory... its you get killed and looted, again.. and again.. and again.. Because its a video game with respawns and all that. The griefing can literally be neverending until you say screw this and uninstall the game.
Mortal Online 2 is bad. These games don't learn from EVE or UO, games their senior.
Blue blocking was a constant issue in mortal online 1. These sort of people have no shame. Its the same typ that cut the power of a guys house in real life to kill and steal his titan in eve online.
Something i fear from ashes of creation. The pvp crime karma system sounds amasing but im 100% someone will find a way to abuse it.
And farm you for your gear.
The genre doesn't attract more assholes than any other, that's just a good way to get kills in a game that's based around getting kills where everything goes.
Brutal survival is unfair by design, you just don't like it.
@@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz I think people like you really do underestimate the ability of players to kill a game. There's assholes in say FFXIV, but they can't do anything to ruin your game, not really in any meaningful way. So you just carry on and enjoy playing. When players have the ability to essentially block other players from playing the game.. yeah they dont toughen up, they leave. Eventually so many leave that theres no one left. Then the game dies. Or hobbles along with a minimal population that sits around complaining that no one wants to play the game to be their new victim.
These kind of games attract many gankers. There are people who enjoy PvP, but not being downed by a group as soon as they leave a city with no progress. It is a downward spiral, gankers make people leave and in the end they are only left on server with other gankers, which becomes boring to them, because they cannot gank anymore, but have even ground PvP, which is boring to gankers.
There's one hardcore full-loot PVP server out of all the official Ultima Online shards. It's called Siege Perilous, and it's the least populated shard on the entire game with a dedicated player-base that sits around two dozen total players on average, with around a dozen of those online at any given time. All of the other shards have the Trammel Facet, and full-item insurance that you can utilize for when you are in the Felluca Facet, which is the Facet that has full-loot non-consensual PvP enabled. Insurances makes it not hardcore full-loot PvP as your charged a miniscule amount of gold upon death, and none of your items can be looted, and Trammel is a zone with player versus player combat turned off.
Of the dozen or so players you'll find online on the Siege Perilous server, about 1/6 of them will be an active PvP player. The other 5/6 of those players are crafters/tamers that actively wear gear the PvP players won't loot even if they do manage to kill them, because it's not worth spending the time to take it off of their corpse. About one night a week, all of the PvP players on that server get together to PvP, and they've been playing together for so long that they no longer even loot each other because it's honestly a pointless endeavor as they are all basically wearing the same exact gear.
Let me make one point absolutely clear. Ultima Online is not a hardcore full-loot PvP game. Even on the classic shards that are privately run, it's not really full-loot, because as you said in this very video, the items are easily replaceable, and there isn't much point in picking them up as the itemization doesn't really make it worth snagging the items off of a corpse. Ultima Online has steadily gone down-hill ever since EA handed control of the game over to Broadsword. The current team-leader at Broadsword treats the official game client as her private nest egg, and the development team there works maybe 1 hour per week on maintaining the game. It's gone as far as some people even thinking that the team there are the primary source of all RMT that happens offline with the game itself.
Sad state of affairs to be honest. Had to stop playing around the end of 2019 because I just couldn't deal with the bullshit from the 'developers' anymore.
Trammel ruined UO, my PKK alliance was completely stripped of its purpose overnight. I'll never forgive them.
Dofus (an MMO few people know) has a hardcore PvP mode where you lose everything on death. Those servers are shutting down because they had too few players.
the culture around MMO's have changed a lot since the early days, what people want from an MMO is vastly different than it was 20 years ago. For me personally I want a good story, and an immersive world I can connect to. I don;t wan to be locked in to the MMO forced to grind and play. I wanna have the option to play after max level with options of things to do at max level.
Yeah thats why i like ffxiv. Its such a chill game because i can relax and enjoy the MSQs at my own pace. I dont feel pressured to rush to the end game
Nah, devs just found out MMO players are great cashcows you can tie down and milk.
yeah, back in the days of Vanilla WoW, PvP servers were tons of fun.
Now, they're tons of empty because how people play MMOs has changed completely.
@@JoakimFigge didn't they say PvP is optional?
@@Nerobyrne Aye, I had to double check that, cause that was not the impression I got from the game. But the devs shifted focus from full PvP to add more PvE over the last year.
Had to remove my comment as I felt silly with lack of knowledge 🙄
I played one until mid level. While standing around near my group in a populated area a twinked-up guy attacked me. What he thought was an over-equipped over-powered character killing a normal character turned into him getting ganked and looted by me and my friends. He then logged in with his high-level main and proceeded to kill me, and from then on any time I logged in he quickly hunted me down and killed me with his main. The game was unplayable at that point, so I quit.
For me it's usually fun at launch when everyone is in the same boat, trying to figure stuff out etc. Once the honeymoon is over and the minmaxers and nolifers pull ahead of everyone else it stops being fun because you just get stomped no matter what
Strolling through this comment section has been a treat. A lot of confirmation bias, and so many people that can’t read a financial report, or read in general.
Hardcore full loot pvp exists in prisons. There’s even a faction and territory system. Yeah. Totally enjoyable.
LOL
don't forget loser gets to be the bottom!
My first experience with this was in Everquest 1. I remember being PK'd (as it was called back then) and my gear being taken (iirc the could only take 1 piece of gear, but it still sucked). My kid brain though I would be the alpha dog, but I was very, very wrong lol. The hardcore PvP crowd need casuals because they need people to lord over to make themselves feel better. Why they don't realize this, I don't know. All of these PvP folks are now playing pay to win games like FIFA/Madden Ultimate team, ect.
Honestly, the fact that most people would feel bad about ruining other players' fun or at least can relate to the feeling of losing what you spent hundreds of hours to get, is actually a good sign.
The pleasure of griefing is unmatched, and doing so grows a resentment in new players that renews the cycle. It's a beautiful thing
I don’t think people actually feel bad. They just eventually run out of people to pick on once casual players decide it’s no longer in their best interest to stick around.
@@Srab23 and you are the reason these games fail. Bullies are always people who fail elsewhere in life, and have to make someone feel worse. Being a bully just means that you, sir, are a failure.
@@haggus71 lololllololl
@@haggus71 precious little flower can't distinguish reality from a game
I had a conversation with a guy I used to date where we plotted how to make a full loot pvp mmorpg work, and we basically had to come to the conclusion that certain high quality items would have to be, to some degree, ephemeral, and the point is to enjoy the temporary (days? weeks?) buff you get from having the item, which will either degrade if it's still in your inventory at the end of the timer, or reset when looted by a new person. People would still probably game this, though. (Being killed by a friend's character, who loots the item, and then you kill the friend's character to reset the timer, keeping the gear forever with more effort.), but it was the closest we could really get to "looting gear would be fun/improve the character who did it" without becoming haves and have-nots and the have-nots quitting.
eve is a perfect example of this honestly, but as an eve player myself, a dedicated one, if there was no high sec for the care bears? There would be no eve. It would spiral out and die. The frustrating part about eve is that you're So invested, you're so committed, that quitting becomes unpalatable. When you Win eve *(Uninstall)* there is a sense you've wasted thousands of dollars in assets (Even if you plex and didn't spend a Dime) and there's always a pull to return to it as you wonder if it's gotten better or worse or hear about new changes.
Eve's player count is always fluctuating as well with big events like the most recent war between the null sec blocs. now that the year long war is over, alot of players who returned Only for that war, are leaving again and taking 6 month breaks.
Eve is worth mentioning because it is probably considered the most Hardcore of Hardcore MMO's. the learning curve is suicidally steep, the players can be welcoming but are usually ruthless, your lessons in game from the community are Spartan in nature (But thankfully often good natured) and the only thing honestly keeping Eve online from cannibalizing itself is the community within it. It's robust, and manages to somehow avoid the rampant toxicity of other Full loot mmos. (Thank christ for that)
Also super cereal internet spaceships? poggers.
On a full loot V Rising server I played on a while back, the admins were complaining that the players in the highest level gear would immediately run away from each other when they encountered one another in the wild. These guys don't even enjoy actual PvP, they just want to beat down and bully players with worse gear than them.
The actual PvP enjoyers went on servers where everyone spawned in with the best gear and all weapons and spells available for dueling. Guess which server I had more fun playing on.
"You can't kill a player so hard their account deletes itself"
Haven and Hearth: "WHAT IF YOU COULD?"
(Also they can do so when you sleep. You can literally log in to an empty character screen because you are vulnerable to being PERMANENTLY killed even while you're logged out. And stans will still say "that's what makes the game good hur duh")
I liked that game but what you mentioned ruined it for me. Same with it's spiritual successor, Salem.
Not hardcore enough. When you die in PVP, a guy should show up at your door and kick you in the balls.
Don't misslead people about offline kill. Characters can't be killed if you didn't commit crimes and didn't leave game with alt+f4.
All your crimes leave scent on place which prevent you character to disappear from world or hide in safe soft bed without risk of death as well making heart fire valuable to others player for smash. Small one forgiven quickly like trespassing, only like 12 hr exists and most people ignore that one. A thiefs (3 days), assault (7 days) and killers (14 days) have stronger scent and they can be used to send NPC to kill you for your crimes, but then you will have 24 hr before it attack your character and other player can warn in discord or something like that. Probable the reason why you were killed offline, you commit crime of assault which can be done easily by attacking player first. Even if he trespassed in your land, if you initial fight, you are the one who commit crime.
Besides, if your character dies you can inheir part of skill and attributes of old one with fresh mind of new one to re discover all thing, so not a complete account delete. Old character from now on will act as ancestor for this one which important for one game ritual.
Good lord, that sounds horrible.
If they want to make it TRULY hardcore, you have to pay $60 for an account key. If you die, the game uninstalls, your account is deleted, and your pc's mac address is blacklisted, requiring you to spend $60 on a new pc to play again.
That'll help monetize hardcore full loot pvp right there.
ROFL all these tryhards saying "Git gud, we don't like casuals" etc.. do they realize that video games are trivial amusements that is supposed to deliver FUN?! Not everyone is a hyper-competitive manbaby! Thanks Josh.
Not gonna lie i used to be like that when i was like 13 years old. Glad i grew out of it
I played eve online for a few years, only stopped because I no longer had the time to play a game like that.
One of the best things eve online does to balance the full loot pvp is to make better items scale exponentially in price, but diminish exponentially in performance. With a few exceptions, deadspace and faction mods provide marginal increases and will not vastly improve your ships capacities in pvp. (I know there are details especially in small gang that I'm leaving out) This is incredibly important and something that most full loot pvp games i look at dont recognize. The baseline, affordable gear should be good enough for 90% of encounters and situations. Bling should always scale exponentially in cost and diminish exponentially in performance, making it extremely niche.
It also provides extremely viable options for pvp in smaller ships that are extremely cheap to lose and take very little time to skill into. The fact that some pilots are content flying these smaller ships exclusively is testament to this.
These two of the core design philosophies that makes a solid and new player friendly pvp experience. Any full loot mmo has to adapt these principles to succeed
I've only ever observed eve from the sidelines, but isn't part of it also that Eve's guilds/corporations are generally cooperative? (I mean internally cooperative among their members) IIRC a lot of them use their member fees effectively as insurance against the loss of your vessel. So a member being asked to risk their fancy battleship knows they'll be able to buy a new one if the worst happens.
@@Bustermachine One of the Core Sayings in EVE, that gets even told to new Players in the Tutorial of the game is "Dont Fly what you cant afford to loose."
Whatever you are Flying right now, you must always be aware that you WILL loose it at some point or another. Keeping this in mind helps somewhat counter the awefull feeling of loosing your stuff- You know that it was inevitable, and it usually isnt to bad of an setback
@@centimanj8916 But that just means that the high end stuff is practically unusable. It might aswell not exist at all.
@@jasperzanovich2504 Basically. The High end stuff (Capital ship class ships) are unafordable for single players, and even smaller to midsized cooperations. Not just unafordable in the way of Money, but also that it takes a long long time to build, and it cant be build in Safer Areas, only in Player Controlled space.
That means that yes, the high end stuff is only for the largest Player Groups, and even for them its an Big Thing to loose one of them.
That beeing sayed, in EVE the largest, most high end Ships arent necessarily an automatic "I win" Button.
Large ships ironically have trouble fighting against small ships.
There are many very experienced old Players that by choice only fly Small to medium sized ships, just because every shipclass has its Good and Bad Points.
Something interesting about eve is most its players spend all, if not most, of their time in high sec. So even in a full loot pvp mmo most the players don't participate in that aspect of the game. Of course you can still get ganked in high sec but I'm sure most those people play despite getting ganked or take active measures to avoid it.
The Division 1 and 2 walked the line between PVP and PVE very well. You can choose to do PVE only or you can take the gear you earn in PVE to PVP where exclusive items to the PVP area can be earned and lost to other players but you'll never lose the gear you have extracted out of that zone or earned before entering.
It's not just casuals that drop off, it's also the fans of Hardcore Full Loot PVP MMOs that drop off. Either because they're now god kings that no one can challenge, so everyone else leaves, then they complain that the game is boring because there's no one to fight (ie: no one grinding for them to steal from, so they have to go do manual grind themselves) or because they loose during the buildup and no matter what any Hardcore Full Loot PVP MMO player says, no one likes being a serf, and that's what you end up as when you're not the winner. And Serfdom is the LUCKY outcome. See Last Oasis as an example which, last I was aware, was dominated by nothing but the biggest clans hunting down anyone who showed up on any Server and taking all their stuff.
The ONLY way I've ever seen that short circuits this cycle is by wiping your game on the regular much like how Rust or Tarkov currently operate. EVE, at this point, is the only big boy left standing, but even they've lost significant ground from the heights they once experienced. Instead relying on sheer momentum and market presence to continue on with their position.
Yep! Another thing is these hardcore PvP player leaving too when the casuals drop off. Once the punching bags are gone, they become the puniching bags of even more hardcore PvPers. Once they are at the bottom, they are gone too.
Like libertarians
I tried Eve Online once. I spent a few hours mining asteroids in a beginner area, bought a bigger mining ship, then went back to mining asteroids again.
My first time out with the new ship a pirate player came along, locked me in a tractor beam of some sort and demanded that I give him everything I owned or he'd blow me up. Yeah, that ended well.
Suffice to say, I didn't bother paying for another month's subscription.
honesty, having played eve for a few month that story is very hard to believe. u are claiming to just had a few hours in the game. that means u should probably just finish with the career agents missions who serve as an extended tutorial. there also u get ur first mining ship, a venture. so what u say either mean u went mining for hours in ur free rookie corvette (no one does that and the tutorial directly tells u that there are better ships and how to get there) or u already had the venture and upgraded to a mining barge. flying a barge is something u simply cant do in ur first few days af playing eve because the skills needed to do so; unless u paid a lot of money to buy injectors oc. the second thing is that u claim that the ganking player put u in a holding thingy, most possible a warp scrambler, that does prevent u from warping away. if u had been in an high security area, as everyone in their first few days of learning the machanics of eve should be, the concord police would have shot him in seconds. that means u actually have been in a low sec system. u get a warning when entering low sec the first time. this is a full pvp area...honestly ur own problem when u go there and dont know how to avoid pirates/gankers
@@uzrdutiutfiztdf3545 ok how about how easily childish/hostile the community is. because i can attest it is both ive been playing off and on since 2012. ive been ganked multiple times when ive first started alts and even my main back in the day. bumping me off mining belts or even gank me in PVE mission sites within my first month. i remember one time i had been in this corp for about 6 months and we were all chatting and joking and talking shit and one of the leaders got quietly angry at my jest, which by the way we were all doing, and he proceeded to kill me over and over and say i never payed for the "mining permit". ive been in smaller corps and those corps have been war decked because the other corp wanted me and i refused to join. im talking they showed up in T2 battleships and T3 cruisers and killed my corpmates and me over and over till we quit. ive come back after a year and within the first day of me logging on recieve an eve mail saying he was gonna harrass me till i quit again. been in alliances with a pvp standing fleet in the next system over and had a cyno frig drop a cyno and a widow came through and the standing fleet wouldnt help me, i had friendlies hop into the belt with me sit and watch me die in my orca. ive been kicked from a corp/alliance because i didnt feel like going into a fleet battle that was set up from the get go for "fun" wasnt over territory it was for "fun" and it was mandatory. id rather sit back and make isk and fight when it matters than have to blow hundreds of millions on unnecessary fleet fights and they call me a carebear. i spent time in wormholes and its a whole lot more crazy in there also no fights were set up. they were all dynamic and whoever lost well lost but the winning fleet respected the other fleet and left after a good fight and wasnt looking to grief. you dont know scary till youve got about a 40 man fleet lock you and they starting to break your tank on your C5 site rattlesnake that costs like 4 billion.
@@vardenfell971 damn. seems like ur really unlucky with the people u played with...but thats not the entire community. seems like everyone who griefed u, was no stranger but some ex corpmate... and the rattlesnake will surly be targeted. whoever kills u can expect at least a billion in loot. but thats not griefing, thats normal pvp play
@@uzrdutiutfiztdf3545 i was just using the pvp fight in the rattlesnake as a good example of a fun dynamic pvp fight. even though we lost, the attacking fleet didnt grief us or our structures. they wanted a good fight, found it and left. i even survived by entering the wormhole we were fighting on asnd ity shut behind me. i had a 3000dps omni tank, and could dish out almost 1000dps, i solo ran c5 sites in it. had alot of fun in wormholes. one of my favorite fleets involves harbingers with daul webs and plenty of logistic cruisers for reps.
@@vardenfell971 ah sry, misread ur text. thx for clarification
"The world will reset to it's standard equilibrium often enough for players to not get frustrated" Oh man, Ashes of Creation is going to be legitimately jarring when citadels get torn down and are no longer to largest cities in the world, which triggers new dungeons to become accessible and others to become inaccessible....oh boy...this is going to get interesting.
We'll see. I'd love to see a game where kingdoms actually fall, but usually it's just everyone who can joining 'the winning team'
No it will not.
It will be a wasteland.
I wonder to what extent Ashes of Creation is going to be a "solvable" game, where after the nerds have done their number crunching have determined what the most optimal placement is for all types of settlement so that all the most optimal content gets unlocked. When the nerds have shown their findings to the powergamers they will want to enforce that state for the most optimal gains and loot, and you'd need a veritable army of trolls to beat down the powergamers, who then complain to the developers on how other people are ruining their fun by taking away the most efficient way to play.
@@Beriorn oh do not worry, there is probably going to be an army of EVE online and runescape trolls ready to beat the game down with those bridges of theirs.
I am terrible at RPG combat but I played the full-loot always-on PVP MMORPG Darkfall Online for a couple of years since its release. I killed two PCs in 'proper' fights during that time (at one point my kill/death ratio was 0,00017!). I was a part time explorer, crafter and gatherer but mostly I was peasant cannon-fodder for my faction. The game had a strong territorial-possession motif and it was engaged with by the players who built large alliances with strict no-killing your allies rules - though it was never safe to venture beyond sight of your stronghold. In fact most of the players grumbled that there wasn't enough PVP in the game because so much of the area around their homes was allied territory. Which was odd because I rarely lacked for PVP whilst roaming the open lands far from home, even though I was avidly avoiding it.*
What Darkfall had was am *almost* working, productive society predicated on looting the PVE to pay for the ruinously expensive wars. There was plenty of politics and spies and raids and master crafters who could expect the protection of their factionand their customers, and presumably enough people like me who were devoting some considerable time to sneaking out of the umbrella of relative safety to gather resources.
There was a cat and mouse game where the mouse actually had a good deal of fun; the PVP hunting groups could try their luck close to the enemy faction stronghold where there were some weak newbies to prey upon but they would likely be chased off soon and it was a long way to and from their own base. Or they could wander the open lands in hope of coming upon a lone wanderer. Since we were few and far between, the hunters would have to spend long dull period noisily roaming around. Conversely, as a lone traveller, I often knew of them and could effectively hide and sneak away with my treasures knowing that if spotted there would be no mercy. It was interesting because the usual zero-sum interaction, as Josh mentioned, was the PVPer choosing the moment and the target and the victim then being forced into a fight not of their choosing and at a fatal disadvantage.
As Josh predicted, that first phase of Darkfall did collapse under its own weight. Politically, it was a dynamic world and it moved inexorably away from the designed intent; the alliance groups got too big and the world war too devastating but it was an absolute blast to be a tiny, tiny part of that great story. It could have carried on with rebuilding and redeveloping until the same situation repeated but I think many of the players were satiated after it all came to a head and because of the one absolutely pertinent and accurate point which Josh made:
The players are TOXIC. The society within the faction which was pushed together to be highly cooperative and mutually reliant, was that of boys in a school playground with all the bating and bullying, immature attempts at machismo and surliness and sulking - when thing went wrong and the pressure increased the Lord of the Flies association seems apt. Between allied groups it seems that the various group leaders behaved in much the same way while between opposing players you might experience anything from the jovial mutual respect of a couple of Sea captains in the Age-of-Sail to the worst nastiness-for-its-own-sake of an internet troll. Not that all this is not present in every online gaming environment but there was a concentration amongst the self-selected PVP lovers, with the most toxic becoming the winner of a sort of PVP meta-game in global chat and the game forum.
The full PVP game that I think the players who are the subject of this video want is not JUST a PVP game. It is a standard game with a society , laws, an economy which they can live outside of and predate upon. I can almost hear Josh spit-taking his tea and spluttering that that is impossible, ridiculous, how could a game society ever work. Easy. It would have to be like the real world (which is, you will note, PVP and full loot) with a very small munber of these criminal elements, small enough that for most players most of the time they don't have to give much regard to the risks. The trick is to make the criminal PVP lifestyle/gameplay style less rewarding than the alternative but making the success chance low and the punishment very high. In fact it will be necessary to make the playstyle incur lots of grind and lots of dullness, a little more than are incurred by the other playstyles. Only the dedicated role-player who wishes to experience the thrill of outlawry should be enticed, though the perfectly designed game would also allow a few to profit and a few more to break-even through criminality, with the ratio of outlaws to decent folk which the society can support varying with the cohesiveness and the affluence of the society at large.
One might ask why anyone would play a game like this, where they are likely to do the same things they would do under a no-PVP system but incur the small risk that this time it might be they who are the victim. The answer is verisimilitude and story. Laking even the possibility of dealing with a bad character in your society makes all such gameworlds a little flimsy and pasty and also creates an absolute barrier between the PC and NPC in terms of how they view the world and how the players view them. In addition, the slight risk adds something to the rewards of simply living and succeeding in this game world. So long as the actual chance of getting killed of robbed is low enough - due to the very small number of active PVPers in a large population I think that many of your casual players will be ready to accept the rare bad event in return for the increased vitality of the world.
This, I believe. is what the PVP lovers mean when they say that there is a big large market for a perfectly designed and monetised MMORPG; a game in which many players can live out their humdrum adventures so that 'we' few can take advantage of them. There is a huge flaw in their reasoning, of course. It is mostly based in their inability (or unwillingness) to see themselves as anything other than the better more skilled fighter, the more cunning thief who should be allowed to lord their might over the stupid, fat merchants and crafters. They do not consider that the vast majority will be in the victim class and to make the system work, so will most of them, most of the time. The 'casual PVPer' will not last in such a game (indeed, in a couple of non-starter games which have hinted at attempting this sort of a balancing act in their announcements, I have seen the forums act aggressively against suggestions that the criminal gameplay style get nerfed to preserve this ratio.) Any PVP game is all to likely to become JUST a PVP game because the very same PVP lovers who want this broad scope game with just a hint of PVP always there are not self-aware enough to realise that they are the reason that it will never work.
The outlaw players who do stay will be the other, much rarer sort. The genuine committed roleplayer who wants the system of laws and in game defences against criminals to be strong, to challenge them, so long is there is at least a plausible path to survival and advancement. These players should add more to a game through their self generated lore than it loses through their occasionally giving a casual player a bad loss. This sort of world will only be really great if you install REAL consequences; as a minimum, Permadeath, though I believe that there should also be a buy-in with real world money for each new life so the wages of sin are actually meaningful (as to keep the low-level griefers at bay)
*note: I resent the application of the self congratulatory term "Hardcore" to these pussy-boys who run around with armour and weapon and skillz without risking much. REAL hardcore is wandering around open PVP land to collect some valuable flower or something without a hope of success if you get caught.
Me, sipping tea: Ah yes, quality nerd content from reliable nerd source
Also me, seeing JSH flawlessly do barbell curls: OH NO HE’S MULTIFACETED
he got some cake though. 👀
An anecdote from my first time playing Albion Online:
I had bought the game when it first came out, and I had a lot of fun grinding my way towards all the masteries I wanted in the beginning, building my wandering warrior to advance from a sword and shield to a great sword. It wasn't easy as the requirements to advance kept on getting higher and higher with every tier reached, and with every resource being mineable by everyone, it took a whole week long marathon just to get all my equipment to tier four (probably, I can't recall, but it sure felt like it). One day I made a friend in my guild, and he asked me what weapon I was reaching for, I told him and he ended up forging me a level 1 ENCHANTED tier 4 great sword. I was immensely happy and thanked them so many times as I had thought it would take me forever to get one (duly note that all this stuff I'm getting excited for isn't even close to endgame stuff); however, I knew fully well that it was a full loot pvp mmo, so worried that I would lose this gift from a friend, I never used it, I stored it in my home chest and grinded my way to make my own in fear of losing it to another player as soon as I got to the yellow zones; I later found out that yellow wasn't full loot, so it kinda didn't matter anyway, lol. Nevertheless, I was scared to lose a weapon that I didn't even make and I was sacred to lose all the equipment I actually did make, cause if I had lost it I would have had to go make another set and use a majority of my resources (again, farming resources is a god damn chore in that game, especially when others are farming). I inevitably started to get bored of the farming loop and started running dungeons which also got boring after a while as there weren't that many at the time. I had then reached the unfortunate truth that Albion Online did not support solo and casual payers in general, the focus was only on the pvp with guild battles, arena battles, and pvp players out in the wilds. Granted arena wasn't added in until later, but then again, there wasn't really any new content added for solo play or pve play at all, not for a long time at least; but you can be damn sure they added new stuff for guilds, arena and even new stuff to add to the pvp experience out in the wilds. Everyone in my guild eventually stopped playing, and I mean "stopped playing", as there were a lot of "last online a week ago" and "a month ago" on my guild and friends list; even my friend who forged me the sword stopped completely, so it wasn't really long for me to be dissatisfied enough to stop as well, because it was clear that there wasn't enough content for everyone outside of pvp. I know there's a lot more new content now in the game, even for dungeons, but it still doesn't seem like enough for me to want to get back into it; after all, a lot of the new pve stuff was added in for sure, but it was also added in with some form of PV FCKIN P INTERGRATED INTO IT, and to me that clearly proves that the devs just don't care for casuals like me. Everyone does NOT matter in Albion Online.
As one of those niche MMO players I'm in total agreement with your assessment here. I always found that very few games distinguish between PVP and PKing. What most of those hardcore PVP players are asking for is the means to harass, steal and bully other players. I for one would love to see a game develop a different end game model that isn't solely PVP or rely on terrible RNG loot drops for ridiculously large Raids. As any player will discover the competitiveness generated from such is practically equal to the grieving from being PK'd.
Yes MMO's are designed to be a forever game but there actual lifespan ceases when you run out of content and there is nothing left to achieve. If there is ever a game that formulates a working solution it might actually become a real forever game. Perhaps if instead of PVP the PVE aspects of the game were to become more aggressive based on the level of resources used to upgrade a multi player city. Each upgrade benefitting all players in some trickle down effect but at the cost of having to band together to defend it. Or even a human vs monster playstyle with wilderness outposts that need to be secured for resources so that new players have safer areas to learn and grow. Making it more about the community then the individual but without erasing the individual and allowing them to shine. Just a thought.
Edit: When I said human vs Monster I did not mean in the way WOW exists as player vs player but as a true PVE. Also if the game could just drop the entire weapon level concept it would make a lot more sense. Anyone whose played Hitman is rather aware that a plastic bag is just as viable as any other weapon under certain situations. There's no such thing as a level 90 weapon. Armor is also abused the same way and to be honest heavier armor is rarely ever better then having mobility. (Sorry for the rant)
I'm wondering what the solution is for these types of games besides how eve does it (becoming middle management the game), because the "hardcore full loot pvp" seems like the easy part.
The hard part is creating systems for those types of games that encourage cooperation and building communities in spite of being hardcore full loot pvp.
@@matthewanderson5198 in response to the hard part you mentioned: I ask myself, is it really though? I'm a huge fan of history you see and I have to say while raiding an outsider has its quick gain/quick loss gambles the longterm benefits from establishing trading partners has a much higher payoff. How this has never factored into a game has forever eluded me. Perhaps it's because of a lack of the sense of loss. For in a real life scenario when a larger more powerful player encounters someone less so there is no true exchange of injury. Take the iconic 300 movie as an example of this. While a larger army ultimately proved successful the losses incurred were so devastating it's clear you cannot truly call it a win.
There is also the amount of self-automy players have in games. Communities are based on the need for cooperation for individual success. To be clear I'm not referring to 'Collectivism' but instead to the need for highly refined trade skills.
This type of players are basically Cyber Bullies who likes more action than just typing offensive words on a social media
Griefing. There, that's the one word that kills these games.
One thing that I see rarely talked about in the hardcore pvp full loot crowds, is having equipment have durabilities. That is to say, that "epic-uber-ultra-rare-takes-days-to-get" piece of armor or weapon, may only last a few days, or weeks at best.
This would mean two things. One, that uber leveled 'kills everyone quickly' PKer who gets all his stuff from killing other players in 10 minutes will need to KEEP killing players to maintain his gear. And there's incentive to keep grinders alive, as they're the ones "Doing the hard work" so to speak.
As someone who enjoys competitive PvP games, I don’t see a point in “hardcore” PvP MMOs, as soon as you introduce loot levels that persist over time, winning means absolutely nothing.
There’s nothing hardcore about an unfair battle.
PvP games are some of the most popular games around, but everyone must start each match with only their skills separating each other. And pretty cosmetic-only items lol
RPG elements can be part of that, like in MOBAs, but you start each match on level 1.
The idea that some people think they’re better than “casual” MMO players because they play “hardcore full loot MMOs” just sounds like school bullies, in my opinion.
The draw to these games is the risk vs. reward. Conflict is mostly avoided until max level, then you have a mostly even playing field. The battles are a test of guild vs. guild, teams of 20-40 people in most cases. One side may be under-geared but more skilled, one side may have gears and skill but lose due to numbers. It's a risk they are willing to take because the reward is literally the clothing off the backs of the enemy, and possibly gaining territory. There's a lot of strategy, tactics and planning involved at the high level. having a small group flank to engage enemy healers for example. Each player has to have a good sense of their own skill level vs. the enemy to decide how much risk they want to put into their equipment choices. Do they take their best gear in hopes that gives them the slight upper hand or should they take the midrange gear and hope their skill level is high enough to make up the difference?
That's the point.
@@Scizyr ngl, that sort of decision making seems like a trap, unless I guess you're scared that your guildmates won't give you your stuff back even if you win, or if there's some way for the enemy to gank you and escape from the battle (so even if you win, you won't get your stuff back). If you expect to win, why does it matter? If you think it'll be close, why are you handicapping yourself? If you expect to lose, even if you and your guild bring top tier gear on everyone, why are you even taking the fight? Ultimately, once you boil things down, I'm pretty sure all full loot does is increase the stakes. You can get plenty of the 'strategy, tactics and planning' just from the PvP part without anteing all the stuff on your person.
Also, such a scenario has more or less no need for hardcore rules, given it's a pitched organised battle.
@@MogFlintlock Increasing the stakes means greater reward for victory, and gives a more finality to the battle. If you get nothing from victory besides bragging rights it's empty. When neither side has nothing to lose pvp just becomes a circle-jerk.
@@Scizyr While I disagree that there needs to be something on the line (and also that 'greater stakes = greater reward/more finality'), even working from the assumption that pvp needs a reward, 'winner gets everything on your body' is a reward structure with a lot of flaws for both sides (partly as addressed in the video). If PvP stakes with proper teeth is your bag, that's fine, but I don't think that's something most people go to MMOs for. If anything, that's more something I'd associate with Roguelikes.
The dumbasses who think they're skilled players because they killed a lvl 5 newbie with the lvl 40 character are some of the stupidest people in existence.
The biggest issue I have with pvp games in general is how competitive it is from the get go, you must enter the game early to obtain a lead, you must spend a lot of time to maintain this lead and generally pay some money to stay competitive. If you're not in the competitive player base as you might enter late or lose progress then you will find weaker and equal players scrambling for opportunities and stronger players abusing anyone they find and try to intimidate people to join guilds or clans. In pvp, it always feels like when you've reached the midpoint and resetting progress becomes hours worth, we could do literally anything else, for even when getting things together again we might lose it again.
The snowball, the downward spiral, if it's too punishing and doesn't reset (like cod, overwatch, lol, mortal kombat, etc.) within a couple of minutes or up to an hour and everyone start at the same time without advantage, then it's not about skill, improvement, or dedication, just about being there first. In many similar games there's guilds/clans, which fill up quickly and each member gets a boost based on either how successful the organization is or how many players they have at their disposal. Entering communities around this reflects this too, if you're not contributing as expected you'll be kicked and replaced so they can find "dedicated members" which creates this feeling as not being welcome, not being a part of something but rather a slave.
These games also quickly die out when any sort of dominance has been formed, what's actually the point in playing when there's one group who will kill anyone and can't be beaten, even if you manage to you'll have to face the retribution of the entire group.
I believe pvp can work, but in similar fashion to dota and lol games. A short time with an end goal which resets the game. Without clans, guilds or friend system similar to many .io games or forced teams like most pvp games. The thing is, raids are fun, mass pvp can be equally fun (battle royale for instance), but the dominance and the punishment is definitely off putting.
I've quit many pvp games simply because I get sick a lot, can't play and nowadays I work and don't have as much time and energy, I'm in my 20s and I can't compete and I don't want to invest an entire gaming session or more to have it ripped away in a few seconds. The most memorable part of mmo games is when you start with your friends and do quests together and attempt raids with a big group of friends, when that is tainted with insta death from other players and being attacked for existing it's a deal breaker