Frame Saw 中国锯 - Traditional Chinese Woodworking Tool
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- Опубликовано: 4 дек 2017
- 中国传统木工木匠的锯。In this video I show you how to make a traditional Chinese woodworking hand saw / frame saw. This is the second in a planned 7 video-series focusing on Chinese woodworking tools that are both traditional and different from European and English tools. Project 29.
DIY frame saw plate ( • DIY Frame Saw Blade fr... )
Checkout the links below where I show you how to make a variety of traditional Chinese woodworking tools.
How to make 7 traditional Chinese woodworking Tools:
1. Chinese hand plane 刨子 ( • Hand Plane 刨子 - Tradit... )
2. Chinese frame saw 锯 ( • Frame Saw 中国锯 - Tradit... )
3. Chinese dovetail Plane 燕尾刨 ( • Adjustable Sliding Dov... )
4. Chinese Knife Saw 刀锯 ( • Knife Saw 刀锯 - Traditi... )
5. Chinese cutting gauge 勒刀子 ( • Cutting Gauge 勒刀子 - Tr... )
6. Chinese bevel gauge 活尺 ( • Bevel Gauge 活尺 - Tradi... )
7. Chinese styled half moon marking gauge 线勒子 ( • Half Moon Marking Gaug... )
7b. Offset plate for easy layout of mortise and tenon ( • Offset Plate - Angled ... )
7c. Foolproof Angled mortise and tenon with the half moon Chinese marking gauge and Offset Plate ( • Foolproof Angled Morti... )
Traditional Chinese frame saw by master Xing Quian Sheng (幸全生)
1of2 ( • 【传统手工木工教学--工具制作】框锯制作第一集 )
2of2( • 【传统手工木工教学--工具制作】框锯制作第二集 )
3of3( • 【传统手工木工教学--工具制作】框锯制作第三集 )
The next planned Chinese woodworking project (3of7) is a dovetail plane. Thank you for watching, I hope you enjoy it. Let me know if you have any questions.
John Z Zhu
@polywright
2017 ALL RIGHTS RESERVED 
Хобби
Very interesting to see how different cultures came to very similar solutions to the same problem, but with some very subtle differences
I really like your series about Chinese woodworking tools. They are little known in the west.
Today I built this saw and I will also build some more Chinese tools.
I watched your videos again and what you said about European frame saws isn’t quite correct.
We also turn the blade to a somewhat 45 degree angle. Because you can not cut deep when the blade is in the same plane like the frame and you can not see you marking well.
Also we usually don’t use the handle for holding the saw when sawing, we usually hold it like the Chinese saw but with the whole hand above the blade pin not with the pinky below.
The handles are for rotating the blade and to rest them below your hand to give you extra control when beginning a cut
I really like how the Chinese version is hold, because it feels like the blade is the continuation of my arm.
If you ever use a Chinese Frame saw you will understand the advantage. Also, I have not found a video of a European frame saw used at a 45 degree angle, that pre- dates this video.
@@johnzzhu ruclips.net/video/0TrzkOYHevk/видео.html @6:55
I understand the advantage, as I said is built the saw you show in the video. You can easily see where you’re cutting
Nice ! 👍
Mr. Ergo Nomics approves, His sister Eco does too.
Nice tutorial
Great video John, thankyou for sharing. Very interesting comparing your Chinese frame saw build with Paul Seller’s European frame saw.
全部都是自己做的，真棒。向你学习。
It is good to see more information about traditional Chinese woodworking and tools. One point, if you check out the historical ways European frame saws were used, the angle of the blade was varied depending upon the goal and size of the stock. Ripping longer pieces requires that the blade be angled to the frame in order to cut past the stretcher. The two turned grips are not often used to push the saw. Instead they are commonly are employed to set the angle of the saw blade to the frame. It might depend a little on the size of the saw as well.
Я Вам посоветовал бы полотно пилы крепить к болтам с 6 гранной шляпкой с обоих сторон, и эти шляпки болтов утапливать в массив стоек и с помощью этих 6 граней шляпок болтов, можно позиционировать направления полотна, отностительно стоек пилы под разными углами. И по моему если уж у вас натяжителем является резьбовая шпилька, рекомендуется на среднюю часть шпильку одеть полимерную трубочку.
beautiful. I will make one. thanks
Thank you John that is just what i was looking for great video!!
Really enjoying this series John :) Thank you ॐ
You're welcome. Five more to go.
Nice project. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks and you're welcome.
Nice project and well made!
Just found your channel, liked and subscribed
Welcome aboard.
Love the series. You are a master my friend.
Thank you. Five more to go.
Enjoyed the video John! Thanks
Thanks and you're welcome.
Very good work and info, thank
That is a great project! Thanks so much for sharing with us.
Thanks and you're welcome.
Looks good John! Thank you.
Thanks RB.
G'day, John. Really nice saw you made there. I'm hyped to see the rest of your tool builds!
Thanks Daz.
Show, show, show, parabéns pela criatividade...
very interesting by a well spoken young man
really nice video, thanks, John
Thank you.
Well done!
Wow! Just discovered your channel and I am so impressed with traditional Chinese tools and techniques. I also really appreciate your editing. Your videos seem so quick for the all the great teaching they contain. I guess that's why I've watched 5 hours worth already.
I have to say the reason behind melting the wax with a heat gun - the wax gets way down in to the pores and grain of the wood. Is a great quick and inexpensive finish that feels very good to the touch. That finish is not super durable but can be redone when needed, and is more than enough to keep moisture and gunge (sweat and dirt) off the saw itself. Keep up the good work!
I like it... traditional saw...
Thank you.
Wow 😮😀 sehr schöne Arbeit . 👍
Thank for this vídeo
You're welcome.
Pretty cool! I like the grip method for it, makes alot of sense for extended use
Thanks. It really is a great grip, I can't say enough good things about the saw design.
VERY COOL VIDEO - THANKS, it's hard to come by much information on the more traditional hand tools used in China for woodworking. Any more info we can get here in the west is helpful, keep posting these as I'll watch them all!
Dude beautiful work friend!!
Nice work! Thx
Thank you.
John great project, excellent vedio, I enjoy all your stuff
Thanks RK.
I like the leather-wrapped handle
It works well.
Great video 👍
Thank you.
Muito legal, obrigado por compartilhar conosco um abraço de Manaus Amazonas Brasil.
Great saw good job !!!.
Thank you.
Great build!
Thank you.
Brilliant video John, I love how the Western and Chinese saws have some differences but are generally very similar and achieve the same job. Just goes to show that there's so many ways to achieve one goal. Really well made and explained, think I'm gonna put that on my list! - Clint
Thanks Clint. The subtle differences is night and day. I prefer plate/back saws over Western frame saws, but I have to say, the Chinese frame saw has climbed quickly to the top. I think you're going to really enjoy it.
great tutorial, I'm planning to build one soon, rewatching to refresh my memory.
btw, thanks for doing these build videos based on the Chinese Master's builds and introducing more of us to his work. I enjoy watching his videos, though it'd be nice if more of them had English subs in order to get all those little details. He's a wizard with a mortise chisel!
@Lane Salvatore instablaster ;)
Belíssimo trabalho!!! John Zhu você é um génio!!! muito obrigado! !!.
Thank you.
Thank you so much! I had a number of questions in my head and as the video played, you seem to answer them one after another. Also, that saw is gorgeous. Beautiful beautiful! What wood did you use? If you don’t mind me asking.
Yes. That's the way I planned it. It is walnut.
Fantastic John . The saw is an awesome piece and I will make one someday. However your instructions on making the pin solved an immediate problem I have at this moment. So thanks for both projects.
Glad to hear Shannon. When the Chinese master made his frame saw, he had some sort of ready made pin, I wasn't sure what it was so I decided to use the nails.
Encore du beau travail soigné.
Thank you.
Gracias por esa gran lección, excelente vídeo, muy didáctico, con el paso a paso no necesite entender tu idioma, hablaste el idioma universal cuando los vídeos son formativos, educativos, para el aprendizaje de técnicas, con el método hacer aciendo y viéndolo y un paso a paso secuencial en la construcción del conocimiento en imágenes, eso es ser excelente, aprendí y a preste el conocimiento a través de tu vídeo, gracias por permitir aprender técnicas milenarias constructivas para hacer arte, eres un artista y estas forjando artistas.
That's an interesting way of applying the Beeswax finish. Great job.
It's pretty much what the Chinese master do to all his furniture and tools.
很好的视频，你的中式框锯做的非常好。对于熟练使用者，中式框锯比欧式锯更高效率，但是对于新手，欧式锯更容易掌握。
谢了，说的好，但是在 youtube 上不能说中比洋锯好的实话。只能说欧美是最好。
Idéia espectacular , parabéns pelo trabalho e apresentação !
Thank you, glad you liked it.
手艺很好，我也是辛老爷子的云徒弟。哈哈，
Hi John stumbled upon your channel when looking on tips on cutting and lying out beveled legs for a stool. Really enjoy your video they are excellent. Thank you Marc from Calgary Alberta Canada
Glad you are here. I lived in the Calgary area in the early 90s.
that's great! I'm really enjoying this series!
I changed this after I saw you'd answered my question in another comment.
Thanks TS. Glad you read some of the comments.
well, I feel like an idiot for not reading a bit first to see if you'd answered my question already.
this was esp. interesting to me, because the round handle on trad. European frame saws always seemed like it would be horribly awkward.
anyway, thanks for making this. I'm going to give the Chinese vid a watch. I wish I were able to understand Chinese, but I'm sure it'll still be interesting.
I just found your channel and I am impressed. The first video I seen was this one. I may make one tomorrow.
I made a Western frame saw just yesterday but I like some things of your design much better like the cross bar.
I like the idea of not weakening the upright pieces with a Mortice or V notches.
I am glad you are going to try it. Let me know how it turns out. To be clear, this is NOT my design by any means, it is a traditional Chinese style.
@@johnzzhu few things are completely original. It is good that we share with each other ideas and refine them to suit our purpose.
Much better than a Japaneses saw.
Buen trabajo, me encantan las sierras antiguas y tradicionales.
Gracias y un saludo desde Spain 🇪🇸
Thank you. Someday I'd like to visit Spain.
Megusto su video tiene su chiste aser esta herramienta voy aser una igual megusto,saludos de mexico y tequedo chingona tu herramienta.
Nice job John. By the way, the threaded rod is properly called “all-thread.” Darlington, South Carolina
Great video. How long is the blade? How tall (width, not thickness) is the blade? I am going to make this saw. Thanks for the video! WESOME work!
Just an observation: the European version has handles not for holding - the reason the frame sides have rounded edges is because it's held the same way as the Chinese one. The handles are there to allow for easier and more precise tilting of the blade. You almost never use it with the blade straight, but you also tilt the blade at very different angles. In fact, you always adjust the angle before each cut, depending on the position in which you need to cut. It's almost impossible to get a straight cut with the blade aligned with the frame - when you cut slightly bent downwards, as is very often the case, the frame would hit your shoulder. But then again, specifically because you continuously adjust the tilt of the blade, you don't want to be forced to de-tension and then re-tension the frame for each adjustment. The handles allow you to change the tilt of the blade even when the blade is tensioned.
Pay attention to how the saw is held in the hand.
Also watch how Roy Underhill holds his frame saws w/ handle. Also watch how Paul Sellers holds his frame saw, and pay attention to the fixed angle of the frame saw that Paul Sellers makes.
@@johnzzhu british and american woodworking tradicions are a litlle bit different than in continental Europe. The handle is primarily used to rotate the saw blade (the angle can be set as needed). You can hold it while sawing, but holding it by the frame is much easier. When rip-cutting long boards, the saw was held vertically with both hands with the blade rotated 90 degrees: ruclips.net/video/y-pup-DoAE8/видео.html
please drill the bar before sawing out the gap.
You can lay the wood horizontally and lower when you use the Chinese saw.
Thanks for posting john I purchased 2 very similar saws from woodwell in china mujingfang, brand .They are made from Indonesian redwood and are heavy , the blades are some type of carbon steel1in bandsaw blade with many TPI. I also made 1 chinese type frame saw from softwoods for rip cutting , and it has a repurposed 1/2in blade that came from a yard sale . I also purchased and made 5 euro type frame saws from woodcraft and hartville. Great job , on your saw hope it gives you a lot of good use!
I've seen those saws, they don't particularly impress me. The ones I've made have become my go to saw. Trying to pare down all my plate saws.
mujingfang is rubbish
that was awesome bro 🤘😎
Thanks.
All my best to you and your loved ones for a Joyful and Merry Christmas. Hope you have a Wonderful Year in 2018!
Thanks Mac. A, delayed, merry Christmas and happy new year to you as well.
Excellent craftsmanship. It would be good to use a string instead of a metal rod.
The 45 degree blade twist allows you to see your cut line easier and more clearly .BTW nice saw.
That is one of the advantages.
Hi John, really good tutorial on making a frame saw, thanks for publishing it, my question, what species is the frame?
Thanks Tony. The frame is walnut.
Pode passar as medidas que foram usadas?
Obrigado!
非常非常好，我一直在想框锯的优势，其中一条就是能用很薄的锯条。日本锯因为拉动切割，锯片承受的是张力而不是挤压，锯片能做到0.5mm厚（Z牌双刃）、0.3mm厚（Z牌超细目夹背）这么薄，而框锯是推锯，但通过本身自带的张紧，也能装配很薄的锯片，还能更换锯条，锯条由于窄，切割阻力小，锯偏离后还能容易回正，这些优点都得益于这简简单单的结构，我觉得很了不起
说的好。我有日本锯但我不喜欢用，一直用西洋的锯。造两中国锯后真佩服传统木匠。
I adapted a large fretsaw to make it balance in the hand . I wired (wound and twisted ) a right angle bracket to the wooden handle . Holding the fretsaw with blade horizontal and frame upwards ,the bracket end comes down below the wrist .
At the bottom end I fixed a blob of lead so the frame and lead balanced at my middle finger . The lead was closed in with tape to make it safe . Now turning the blade vertical the balance is still perfect. Sideways it also balances.. The whole feel is like the saw is floating in the air. The weight is double what it was to start with. But it floats and balances . Ideal for finer cuts with much less stress on the forearm.
These wide frame saw blades are cheaper than I expected . About £6 . is a very nice price . I like this saw design without handles sticking out . The cross piece has no metal stubs to hold the 2 short ends in position . Make a few "out of sight "stubs . Or shape the cross piece ends inside the cut out as a curve and match that curve on the 2 ends . Afterthought You "Could "add a right angle Bracket with some Lead to this frame saw to make it balance perfectly but maybe it would be a bit too heavy . I need a smiley here .
Thoughtful comment. Sorry for the late reply, took a long break. Making stubby tenons is something that's common, I wanted to showcase a different way. The weight of the saw helps with the cut, it's end loaded; it just glides once you find a good balance point.
It’s a good feeling to make your own tools. Every time you see it and use it, it reminds you of the experience building it yourself.
What was the pin made from that you finally used?
Just curious: Doesn’t the application of beeswax prevent the linseed oil from penetrating and creating a permanent finish?
Thanks for building and producing this series!
Thanks Mac. I use a nail couple mm in diameter. Bee wax is semi-permanent. Very difficult to get the stuff off, and it would prevent linseed oil application. You can do linseed oil before wax.
Great video! I also tried to make the frame saw myself. Unfortunately, I did not find any suitable material for the saw blade until I saw your video. On the side note, I noticed that Mr. Xin quansheng uses a softwood or lighter wood for the middle beam or drilling holes in the middle beam. Maybe you can try that to reduce the weight. Again, thank you for the video!
Thanks. Glad the saw blade video can help. I can't tell or he didn't say the specie of the wood. I find the heavier the saw the better.
Great build! LOL I once built a frame saw with a twist rope tension and section of bandsaw blade. I cranked it up, and it was working fine, then, the ROPE snapped and the handle whipped round and smacked me on the side of the head, right between my left ear and left eye.
I snapped the original brass pin I used to hold the saw. Thank God no injuries.
John gracias por compartir esta herramienta tradicional saludos
You're welcome Ivan, glad you enjoyed it.
我在国内时相当于2美元买的一个中国锯子，我居然把它带到国外了。真舍不得放弃它。
Plans for John Zhu portable workbench and Chinese Framesaw?
thank you for this inspirational video..i'm following the Whole series about chinese hand tools and find them efficient and much more simpler than western counterparts. could you share with us dimensions of this frame saw?
Thank you. The saw is about twice as long as it is wide. It should be make to suit your needs.
我爸我爺爺都會使用這種弓子鋸，我就不會，一鋸就跑偏。我以爲日本人不使用這種鋸，所以都是那種直柄的，我買來，用起來感覺還可以。但是後來我翻找老照片，發現他們的人間國寶黑木辰秋也用這種弓子鋸。從效率上來説，弓子鋸真的很快就能鋸斷，但是我真的沒覺得弓子鋸的鋸片特別在哪，可能是持握的方式上有一個整體鋸身的重力我猜。
做的真棒。
我以前都用洋人的锯；一个多年前开始用中国锯 ，现在我很少用洋人（English）锯。这中国锯真是好用。
日本锯的效率不低的，需要手法得当。以前我也以为框锯的效率高过日本锯，后来使用经验多了，发现并不是这样的。
Here in Germany the blade of the frame saw almost always was at an angle too ;)
woodworking is a great example of convergent evolution.
A well-done project! I just found your channel as I am planning a couple of frame saw builds. And one of the questions I have been trying to determine is if the blade pins need to be fixed at 45, or if the tension is enough to keep them at the angle desired. I didn't see anywhere in your video where you fixed the pins (nails), so I am guessing that technically they could turn and it is the tension that keeps them at the desired angle?
The pins are not fixed. The tension from the blade is more than enough to hold them in place.
@@johnzzhu Wow thanks for the quick reply, that helps a lot. I do a lot of mortise and tenon work, but Arts and Craft style, not the challenging angled stuff you do, and I am planning to build a frame saw for the purpose instead of investing in a high $$ modern tenon saw. And I am hoping it will also be useful for resawing some smaller boards, as I don't have a bandsaw.
I like it! One question comes to mind. It’s just the pressure holding the beam in place. Why didn’t they use a little joinery to keep it in one spot like the English style? And the 45 degree angle of the blade makes it so much easier to follow lines. I do that all the time. Cool vid. Thank you.
There are ones w/ mortise and tenons, in this style you can slide the beam up to make more room. The hand position is going to make it even easier.
long joinery is not necessary, chinese joinery is a bolt with a mushroom head.
锯拐还可以做鹅头 鹰嘴等更有特色的样式嘿嘿😁
是可以但没比要，画蛇(不可)添足。
确实，好用就行没必要再复杂了
Thank you John, impressive skills.
Idle curiosity, the wood that you used appeared to be walnut. Is that correct? It's been a while for me, but walnut is a joy to work.
Yes, it is walnut.
@@johnzzhu Most European frame saws I held in my hands - it was the saw of choice for larger cuts for all sorts of wood workers, from cabinet makers to wooden house builders, when I grew up, and as a child I'd rather be in a workshop than in a candy shop - were made of lighter wood. Is hardwood specific for Chinese frame saws?
hello John，great skill！could you please tell me where can I buy the saw blade and any brand to recommend？
I made my own saw blade. See link in description.
Another question relating to the pins. You used pins for both ends of this saw, but in one of your other videos, I believe it was one of the half-moons or perhaps, the angled mortise and tenon, we see you using a frame saw, but it looks like the non-handle side of that saw the blade is fixed with some kind of plate and screw instead of a pin, was this a later improvement to the design or just a commercial saw?
The absence of a horn allows me to saw deep into a flat surface.
That looks and cuts AWESOME John! Is there any particular reason the blade is at a 45? And like the way the wax is applied I have never used a heat gun after wiping wax on the piece of wood gonna have to try that looks like it works in turns out very well looking forward to the next one
Thanks Joe. I think 45 degrees is a really good balance angle, it's a natural position for the hand. So the frame saw, hand, wrist, elbow are in alignment.
John Zhu OK I can see how that Works now..And always bro! LOVE THE content and detail u bring
Plus, On cutting off an end, you can cut a deeper kerf without hitting the cross bar? Or even install a ripping blade as well. You just have to design the saw arms to be deep enough for the width of the rip you do most commonly. Of course, I am guessing here, but sounds logical to me.
It is common in Chinese woodworking to use a mortise/tenon joint for a fixed size frame saw. I just showed the bridle joint for a movable one, like the one the Chinese master showed. My smaller (prototype) Chinese frame saw is a M/T, you can see it in the handle design part of this video.
John Zhu cool bro..gonna def chk that out
John, one question please you said the reflection helped you keeps the cut true. I do understand could explain this to me. Thank you.
If the reflection of the cut is at 90 degrees then the cut is at 90 degrees. You can make a right angle on a piece of wood and place a saw on it and observe the refection.
John Zhu I understand, thank you so much. Jared
Do you take the tension out of the blade when not in use? If not, have you seen it lose the set over time?
I do not. The reason one would loosen the strings is because the strings stretch over time, not the blade. That is the advantage of a metal tension rod. The only stretch is possibly from the holes I pierced on the blade.
Thanks for the reply. I've had bow saws, the kind for cutting branches and logs, lose their set rather quickly when left under tension. Since those blades are impulse hardened, I wasn't able to correct the problem myself. I supposed if a frame saw like you have here was to lose it's set, it would be a simple matter of going back to the saw vise. I'm excited to take a stab at making one soon.
thank youfor this video! Here ( Italy) used frame saws for pretty anything, fine joinery included. I want to replicate your saw. Could you give us the exact dimensions of wooden beams nails and threaded rod?
Thanks Carlo, I know through out Europe the frame saw is still king. The plate saw is more of an English/American thing. There general rule is the arms around about half the length of the stretcher.
“I replaced the weak pin with a very strong pin” - could you elaborate? I, too have attempted to use finish nails for pins on a homemade bow saw blade in the past, with similar results ;) What did you ultimately use for the pins?
I used a steel/iron nail of the proper size and strength for my application.
Hi John
Could you please give us some idea as to the thickness of the side pieces and the stretcher.
You say the saw should be about twice the length of the ?arm.
That would be roughly 24”.
Would that be approximately correct and secondly the side pieces should be roughly half the length of the stretcher?
I am wondering if the dimensions would make it easier to use the saw for example too long a saw would be harder to control as opposed to a saw that’s too short is compromised in the length of the stroke.
I believe I am making it pretty clear that I never built a frame saw before.
Thanks for a great video but it is generating some questions.
The side pieces are ~3/4" thick, the stretchers ~1/2" thicker than the side pieces. The actual size does really matter, it's the blade size that matters, the longest blade I have made ~30", shortest ~10"; a 16" blade should be a good starting point for an all around saw. The ratio of side:stretcher depends on how much leverage you want to have on the tensioner. I suggest you make one and you should see all the fine points. Chinese woodworking is very very flexible, there aren't a rigid set of rules, the tools are highly personalized by the user.
@@johnzzhu
Great
I am off to the races now I mean saw building my first frame saw
Thank you so much
Are there any advantages to a 45 degree blade set, as opposed to a zero degree, other than you can cut deeper into the material without hitting the saw frame? Thanks for your vid!
More ergonomically when using traditional Chinese woodworking sawing techniques.
@@johnzzhu thanks. 👍
What is the Chinese characters name for the pliers you hammer into the bench to stop the wood moving when planing`?
Where you at John? I'm missing your videos!
I'm back. Life happens. New video today.
I would be interested in what you do for sale ?
Why did you choose a threaded rod instead of cord and a winding stick?
just because it is easy. this desigh came from indusdrial revolution in north china and i don't like it because it is come from enemis area, i still use cord.
John , where did you get those blades ?
I made it, see link in description.
亲爱的朋友，我有用匡锯且比较喜欢，好奇的是为什么你要用螺杆不用绳子来拉，重心太高我个人觉得会消耗更多的力气在保持稳定上！
The threaded rod doesn't stretch compared to ropes.
If one uses sand paper then a cabinet scraper, the grit from the paper is left in the wood and the scraper finds it.