Hey Matt, I've never used an oil based finished but have used water based ones quite a bit. 1st thing, not all foam brushes are created equal. Cheap foam brushes will leave more streaks than the moderately more expensive ones. 2nd, never shake the can or push down on the brush to squeeze more finish out of it. These 2 actions create bubbles and bubbles are your enemy as they also create streaks. 3rd, I never sand the wood to higher than 150 grit as the finish doesn't seem to adhere as well to the higher grits and after 3 or 4 coats you can't really feel the wood grain coming through anyway. 4th, last but not least I always rub it down with some fine steel wool and then apply some paste wax and buff it out. That seems to give the piece a nice smooth feel. I'm definitely not an expert, and I've never finished anything quite as large as your piece here, but that is the process that I have cobbled together from information that I've gleaned from the web and it seems to work pretty good so far. Sorry about the book but I just wanted to share my info with you. Keep up the good work!
Well that's odd because the can of polycrylic I just used says not to use steel wool... 🤔 I'm waiting on my first coat to dry on our dinning table so I hope it's not too long of a process. (doing this at night while fam is asleep). I'm not liking that my bleached off weathered wood finish is now looking very orangey with this stuff so hope it dries better. Also the synthetic brush I used left terrible steaks since the table is round with a rounded border and pie sliced in center. Oy!
You really shouldn't touch a water based finish with steel wool. Also, whats with the scrubbing away at it with the foam pad? Use a brush and apply it even and gentle. You're not painting a fence.
Matt, I used to sell General Finishes products and have used them extensively. Here are my suggestions. 1. Stirred gently, not shaken. 2. Spraying almost always produces a smoother finish. 3. If brushing, use liberal amounts and don't overwork it. Lay it on and leave it alone. Using an extender will give you more "open time" to apply to larger surfaces and improve leveling. 4. Because you are applying a thicker coat that dries faster, you will need to "finish the finish" with fine sanding to remove potential brush marks. 5. To deepen the color, pre-seal with either a stain, thinned de-waxed shellac, or boiled linseed oil (thoroughly cured). I hope that this was helpful.
As a person who used to sell General Finishes products what do you think about water based poly durability? I found contradicting opinions. Some people on the internet say it's better not to use water based polys for tabletops as they tend to fray in places of contact with people's elbows just in a couple of years.
Super helpful to see a “non-perfect” ending to a project. Typically you only see someone best work and not the errors they make or finishes they don’t love. Thanks for sharing
I use this water base product all the time, I am using it right now on a very smooth dining table. The directions on the can say, don't shake it, don't over work the product, and if it's too thick you can add some water. Your piece of wood is beautiful! The reason for your lines is that you were painting the finish on, over working the product. This water base finish is beautiful when applied properly. I was hoping to get some tips from your you tube video, I'm disappointed.
Matt, I did a spalted maple sofa table and used a water based (same brand) with a 'critter spray' gun. Worked great. no wet spots no brush marks builds coats faster.
Matthew, would love to see you re-try this product after following the manufacturer's instructions to a T and then give a "first impression" on it. How about a take two? :)
upd: we use foam paint rolles in our shop to cover up kitchen countertops and office tables with poly+acril water based warnishes. finish comes out even and nice only in 2 coats with light sanding in between. and, at the moment it's my favourite finish, because of: it's fast - 2-3 coats a day - easy-peasy. not smell (i'm smell sensitive and got headache freaking fast), it coul be layed upon any type of colour (water or oil based), no smell (shipped on the finishing day - ok!!) we dont have armr-seal here in Ukraine, just using some trade grade one.
I use those same foam applicators and get a flawless finish with waterbased poly. The first few coats aren't critical - just smash it out. The trick to a nice finish is to wait a few days for the finish to harden up and then wet sand it with 320grit and soapy water (dish washing liquid). Use a sanding block - you absolutely do not want to expose any wood fibers otherwise they will raise preventing a smooth finish; using a sanding block helps you sand the minimal amount to smooth out any bubbles/runs. Then with the final coat you need to work briskly but not overwork the finish - you only have about 1-2 minutes working time once you put finish onto the surface. If you brush too vigorously you'll introduce bubbles. Also never shake the can, only stir gently otherwise you also get bubbles. If you brush over an area that has already been down for 1-2minutes you will make streaks because the finish is already starting to dry. For large pieces you need careful planning to prevent brushing over areas that have been sitting too long and ruining the finish.
Nice demo Matt. I use water based poly quite a bit, and spraying is the best way to apply it. Also the GF also imparts a slightly more yellow color than Minwax Polycrylic. that product is very clear and imparts no color at all.
Matthew Cremona you over brushed the water base and it looked like way too light of a coat. To get the pop in darker woods I put oil or shellac on first and then h2o poly for the protection. Shellac for first couple coats is very easy....
I use the same finish. HVLP spray it and it is awesome. I can get 4 coats sprayed in one day with a light buff in between with an extra fine sanding pad. The finish is rock hard and clear. Highly recommended if it is sprayed.
I've used both oil and water based finishes on quite a few projects (as a hobby woodworker). I like both of them, but water based finishes are harder to apply and look good. What I have found out: #1 there are *huge differences between the finishes* you can get. Some just won't give you a nice finish and will always have streaks for example no matter what you try. #2 a *good brush* pays off with water based finishes. The coats should be very thin. #3 it helps alot to *thin the finish* with water, especially on the first coat when the wood is sucking everything up (look at the label how much you can add, but 3 parts finish 1 part water always worked for me). #4 if you have the choice *don't apply the finish in hot* or bone dry environments, it just dries too fast and won't flow. #5 *don't touch anything* again that has had more than a few minutes to dry already, even if it looks like you have wet or dry spots and it is very tempting to smooth them. I guess this is the main reason for the streaks in your finish. Wait until everything is completely dried.
I use a water based poly on a lot of projects. What I know - and what you've likely learned using it - is you can't over work it. It dries fast, which means it tacks fast, which means overworking causes streaks. The sponge brush sux for water poly application. I use a natural bristle brush, work quickly along the grain with a wet edge. Sanding between coats is definitely required. Good looking desk top, though!! I'm uber jealous!!
When in Europe I always used water based finish, I can't get it here in Colombia, the main advantage for me, was as you said, the lack of odour. However I never used those sponge brushes, always a normal brush or rag. It was nice to see the difference in colour change, interesting to see how little difference in the Oak. Thanks for the Vid, educational as always! :)
I tend to use water based a lot more often, although I tend towards minwax' polycrylic. I have used it a lot, and may have a few pointers. I generally stir the can rather than shaking to mix, because shaking it can lead to more bubbles and uneven finish. I tend toward regular brushes (there are some marked specifically for water based). I have had a ton of problems with the foam ones. Also, to reduce brush strokes, I tend to avoid over brushing. Since it dries so fast, if it has started to dry when you run the brush through, it will dig lines into it. If the stroke where you apply the finish is the only time you go over a spot, per coat, those lines should go away. I hope you enjoyed the process, and keep trying new finishes, and filming them. seeing what does and doesn't work well on the first try, says a lot about the learning curve. there are a lot of finishes I have not tried due to the complexity. I guess I need more shop projects.
Hey Matt, I find myself using Minwax's water based oil modified poly pretty often. It's readily available at my home center most of the time. It's nice because I get the fast drying of a water based finish with an oil based look. I spray it as well.
I always have good results with those foam brushes and oil based finishes, but now I know to avoid them with water based. I always love the wood you pick. So much character.
I have sprayed this finish with an HVLP system and find it to lay down well and dry very well. I have also used the GF Enduro products with much better appearance on dark wood. I use the GF High Performance on light woods such as maple.
I have sprayed water finishes on mahogany in the past. I pore filled, and stained, then sprayed three coats. I was very happy with the results, you could not tell that it was a water based finish. Also it was a refinish job that was contaminated with silicone.
Thank you for all that. I tried foam brushes too, and will not use them again. Now I am onto your oil based, and wiping it on. I am getting much nicer finishes, now, and they apply and dry faster! Thanks Matt!
You can get that oil based look with water based finishes - do one or two coats of shellac as a sealer before the top coats. You can use straight shellac or Target Coatings has a product called ultra seal WB shellac. I've used that under their water based lacquer EM6000, it's probably compatible with any waterbased top coat but should be tested. I've used both straight shellac and the Target product and like them, I find the straight waterbase on it's own does not bring out the grain and colour as well.
Recently I've used water-based lacquer and liked a lot . I also had to add honey bee because I was using pine wood and needed to give it a tone similar to bamboo. Very useful tips, Matt.
I have used the water based finish on my stairs and found out that as all the people said (don't shake) and you have to flow the product on the material keeping it as wet as you can I used small floor application pad pour the finish on the stair and flow it, the streaks will disappear as long as you don't smooth it out too much especially important on the 2 and 3 coat use the abrasive pad to smooth out any dust or raised grain came out really nice and smooth almost like a some clear plastic coat
cool video matt great tips!! I like the water based finishes too for a natural look, they way i go about it is as follows: between 5-7 light coats with a foam brush let each coat dry 3-4hrs come by with a quick 340grit sand between each coat and wipe with tack cloth. let the final coat cure with previouse coats for 3-4 weeks depending on conditions. start wet sanding from 600-2000 grit with water and a few drops of soap. clean all reisdue, and hand buff with cotton rag and rubbing compound until semi or gloss. if you do not buff after wet sanding the polycrilic it will have many defects but not to worry give it a buff and scuffs and scratches come crystal clear!!
HI Matt. I’ve used both finishes over the years and prefer WB to oil based, Small shop, safety, and finish as well. I never use a foam brush with WB. On Cherry and Walnut I use boiled linseed oil then shellac then the WB finish. The TC I use depends on the application. I have used GF High performance, GF Endurovar poly, GF Lacquer (really like that one) and a brand WB from Sherwin Williams. On most of my projects I use an HVLP spread system to apply the top coats.
I used waterbase finish on my Walnut toolchest built and was really happy with how it turned out. a oil base would have got the wood too dark and I was going for a natural finish. I used a soft bristle brush to apply mine and applied a thick coat, didn't have issues with flow out..I used polycrilic from minwax.. Nice top by the way..
I always get better results with a water based poly using a good quality synthetic brush and not shaking the can but stirring thoroughly. Thanks for the video.
You may want to try yourself a foam roller and then follow up with a brush to remove any fine bubbles. Here in Alaska where I can't get good ventilation indoors in the winter, I tend to use the water-based finish is a lot. I've had very good success with the foam rollers. I can also say if you use lighter and later pressure as you spread the material, you will reduce the air bubbles to a great degree. Then you just need to follow up with a good quality brush. I find the poly acrylic to be quite thick, and rarely do I need more than two coats. Sometimes one is enough. I can also say spraying these water-based finishes is the best, but unless you've got good ventilation and a super dust free environment you can create more problems than you solve. I think the roller method works well so long as you follow up with the brush to get rid of the bubbles.
Here in Israel it's quit warm so WB varnish dries to quickly to flat it self. So first coat is thinned with water so it penetrates deeper as well as flattening. Other coats should also be thinned with water.
Matt, I know it's a lot more effort but I use a spray gun to apply water base finish, I thin it down 2parts finish to 1 part water , 2 coats , sand with 400 and then 2 more coats and sand with 600, if I want super smooth finish i'll buff with Minwax finishing paste , I never get any brush streaks , and clean up of the spray gun is easy, I hope this helps, Cheers. PS: I don't use it on small projects (only stuff for the kids), mainly furniture and larger pieces
My technique for applying a finish like that, (water based) is only different at the end of the second coat (immediately after the sealer coat). When you went back and noticed that it was already tacky and starting to dry, I immediately put on a heavy coat, right over that. Then let it dry for a full day. As you said, it doesn't flow well, so when it's tacky, you can really build up that coat. After that first coat (or 1.5 coat) is dry after a full day, go back with 220 and you can actually sand it flat to avoid those marks.
I always like these compare and contrast videos. I'm an oil finish guy too, but I've tried the polycrylic over painted surfaces (open shelving) and it really turned out nice. And then tried on bare wood, not so nice, in fact I threw the piece away. I recently tried the stuff you just used, GF HP on bare white cedar wood sanded to 180 grit, and it did come out nice but the grain was muted. I did apply it with a rag, flooded the surface and really rubbed it in and then lifted off the excess with one of those foam brushes. I think rubbing in with the was the ticket .
I used GFHP Water Based on a cherry end table...sprayed the outer parts of the table, sanding between coats. 5 coats and then took it to a buffer, the buffer i use for the guitars I build, and I buffed out the outer services of the table... Used the sponge brush on internal areas of the table and after the first coat began to apply a thicker coat, allowing me to sand down past the application streaks creating a flat finish.
I have not used the GF high performance water based finish but I have used the Minwax Polycrylic. As you said it is thicker than what you typically use, the Arm-R-Seal, so I dilute it with water just a little. I like the fast dry time so I use it on stuff like stained cabinets and doors. If you want the "oil" look with the water based finish you can add a coat or two of SealCoat and then the GF HP finish. I really like your desk top, by the way.
I use a good quality Hamilton synthetic brush for water based varnishes, stains or paint and natural bristles for oil bound paint, varnishes etc. I would never lay varnish in the regular painting motion but load the brush with enough varnish to do one single sweep across the surface with overlapping. Just my method of course but varnish never looks good when overlapping. If any is missed just catch it on the next coat.
+Matthew Cremona Matt, i use waterbased alot. i try to avoid it on darker wood since it gives a kinda white-ish hue. works really good on light woods though (looks alot better on birch or beech [plywood] than oilbased stuff). you can thin out your finish with 5 to 10% of water, which makes it a lot more fluid and less streaky. with that method you could even use a rag to apply (woodwhisperer style, no rub in). since this stuff dries so fast you absolutely should not go back to surfaces you worked minutes ago.
Thanks for that Matt. I seem to be the only person using sealer. With oil-based it's easy, just add thinner to the varnish. With water-based, you have to buy the sealer already thinned. Water-based varnishes do not contain water and "should not" raise the grain unless you add the water, but there is enormous variation between brands. I get good results when I start with a water-based sealer, though perhaps my "good results" may differ from yours.
Very informative, Matt. I switched to GF arm-r-seal after watching you use it a couple of times, and I really love working with it. I have never used any of their water-based products, so this video was really useful for me. Thanks!
Thanks for the demo. I started using Arm-R-Seal after watching your Ask Matt #12 and have been very happy with it. After watching this video I don't see myself changing anytime soon.
There is a wipe on poly acrylic available but I haven't tried it. As the name applies it is wiped on with a cloth and rubbed into the wood rather than with a brush. That might might make application easier but I think the color would be the same result. There is a finish for every type of wood that works best for the wood grain and color. I like to test to see what works the best.
Thanks Kim! Wipe is what I'm most used to so I'll have to give that a try in the future. I think this is going to be my finish of choice for maple. I think it looks great not being all yellow.
I use a lot of water based poly clear finish and for me, using a good quality brush provides good results. I also lay it on thin. I love water based clear finish bc i prefer the look of natural wood.
+Anthony Hall It's possible but man did the surface look like butt before I did that. It looked like it would have dried with a very uneven film and probably deeper streaks. I don't have any mahogany to try them on but I'm guessing the results would be similar to the walnut sample. Maybe someone has some experience with WB vs OB finish on mahogany and will chime in. Thanks as always, Anthony!
Very nice demonstration and analysis of the water based finish. I would like to offer two suggestions for your consideration: 1. thin the finish to improve its flow characteristics. This should give you the more uniform application you seek, 2. Use a rag to apply the finish, you are more comfortable with this method of application and it gives you the more intimate relationship with the wood for which you are known, If others want to use foam brushes, so be it, stay with what you know. Cheers my friend.
I’ve used a water based varnish recently too, it dries very quickly which is great but I didn’t like the application because it left brush marks and it foams up if you overwork it too much in more intricate areas. I wasn’t really very happy with the finish either, I didn’t bother sanding in between coats because of time. It was very rough and tacky feeling and the wood looked so cold. I dont know why you’d prefer this over a lovely amber hue
Good demo and comparison Matt. I looked on the GF site and a pad type applicator with a nylon stocking over it was used as another application method. I saw your answer about spraying. Kind of like the idea of using less toxic finishes if you can get the results you want. Thanks!
Good video, Matt. You hit pretty much all the pros and cons. It's a PITA to use, and does build a more "plasticky" feeling finish due to the thickness. On the upside, WB is the standard for wood floors due to its abrasion resistance, and it is much more resistant to UV yellowing than OB coatings. Still, if you want to feel the wood, my experience has been that you really have to wet sand the dried WB finish at the end.
That was a great overview, Matt! I don't know if I mentioned it before, but I finish furniture for my living. You were 100% correct about alternative application methods, spraying is ideal but a decent brush would also serve you far better than those, awful, foam things. I'd also suggest a final 0000 wire wool rub down to even things out. All the best, Martin.
For a proper finish with waterbourne, sanding to max 120-150 grit is enough. 3 coats to be applied, if the finish is gloss or high gloss, the first coat should be a matt. Use paint additive 10-25 percent and 10 percent water to have a good flow and wet edge for longer time. Sanding in between coats with 240-300 grit. Leave at least one day of drying time between coats for proper curing. You'll get a finish nearly as with epoxy. Coat it continuously in the grains' direction, use a soft brush from Purdy or Wooster. For big surfaces roller is good as well Wooster Pro Do Z, short pile.
Thanks for this video, you might have done it wrong in some ways, but that allows people to point it out and allows a lot more to know the mistake and to avoid it.
I've had great results with oil polyurethane and a foam chisel tip brush. Never brushed on waterborne top coat. Maybe using the same technique would work? My method is to slowly stir the finish in the can for 5 minutes then pour only what I'll need into a 5" wide plastic paint tray. Then I gently place the foam brush in the tray and let it soak for a few minutes. I then gently set the tip on the surface of my work and slowly drag it along as the finish slowly flows out of the brush/tip. I'm always careful not to press the brush into the work or the tray, that creates bubbles. Patience is the key, at least when laying on oil based finish and a brush. Done right it's glassy smooth and maybe one or 2 tiny bubbles. I wonder if the same technique would work with a waterborne topcoat.
Have to jump on the "this video shows everything not to do" bandwagon. I just completed the third coat on some bare wood maple shelves with the GF High Performance Satin. They look great, not too shiny and very smooth. As someone commented below, the foam brush you use matters. Big Box stores sell very soft ones. I buy them a dozen at a time on Amazon; they're quite firm.You can also successfully pad it on with a cloth as my local Klingspor recommends. Bare wood should be sanded to 220, no more than 320. Use a purpose made tack cloth for water-based finishes after sanding and between coats which should be leveled with a Grey Finishing Pad. Don't shake the can as many have mentioned which also goes for oil based stains. Stir with a plastic stir stick which can be washed and re-used, not discarded. High performance isn't a reactive finish like lacquer or BLO but it is forgiving enough that a dried run can be easily removed with a card scraper with little evidence it's there, after another coat is applied.
Makes sense..im so use to shaking paint..i will deff not shake it...any tips on a good water base clear to use over my wood floor??? Can i stain it first???
Great video! like Lance's Workshop said, I use the poly-acrylic for my shop furniture which is mostly birch plywood cabinet construction trimmed with poplar or oak.. for that purpose it is convenient, seems to look and hold up well and like you pointed out, doesn't tint the wood. I've used both Minwax's & General Finishes HP polyacrylic finish and have to say that I think the Minwax brushed on better and definitely left a superior finish and seems to require 1 less coat then the GF to achieve the desired build up. And thanks to your vid, I will definitely skipping the water based finishes all together on any nice cherry or walnut, etc. projects ;) cheers!
Tip, never shake any stain like that especially water based, treat it like poly this avoids bubbles, think dawn dish soap when added to water it foams. Secondly use a synthetic paint brush then wipe it down, so soak it then wipe it on, less sanding and I never need more than 180 grit sand paper, after that go to your pads or steel wool and buff it out.
Although he called it stain, he was using General Finishes High Performance water based poly TOP COAT. Not stain. So yeah, he should've followed the directions. He messed up LOTS of things that were stated clearly on the can and website. Best learning tip: when using something you've never used before, read all directions and tips, don't just assume it's to be used like other things.
Matt great information. I have used the Minwax version, I sprayed it and I liked the first 2 coats, the 3rd and 4th coat made the project very milky looking. I always loved GF products and I was happy to see your opinion
Matt, thank you for the video. I wonder if the streaking was introduced when you brushed over the tacky first coat with the wider foam brush. One thing that General Finishes stresses is not going over the already covered area too often. They recommend letting that coat dry before covering any 'holidays'. I thank you for the comparison as well because I have only used the water based finish thus far. I am about to finish a mahogany project and I'm wondering how Arm-R-Seal compares with the HP water based on this species. I really appreciate your videos. Happy woodworking.
That's a great resource Matt. Our finishes here in Australia are all different as you'd expect but the results are the same. I personally use mainly water based finishes, I pre wet to avoid the furries and I generally thin the finish when applying. You're killing it mate, hope everything is going really well wuth both new family and work.
I gave up on brushing water based finish. The finish dries very very quickly and I am not quick enough to apply the finish evenly. I also apply a layer of shellac before I apply the water based finish. Even with raising the grain if I do not apply the shellac I still get fibres in the finish. When spaying the water based finish, by the time I complete 1 layer where I started is dry enough to begin the second layer so the project can be completed in 1 spray session.
Hey Matt! Good video demo. I've been using waterbased finishes for years, but never the General brand. (not so commonly available up here.) Most of my experience is with the Flecto Varathane Diamond finish, from Rust-oleum. But also some experience with the minwax stuff. That General product did look thicker than the Rust-oleum or Minwax stuff I am used to. How did you find that finish for bubbles? On the first coat you were mashing the brush down several times forcing out the finish. I would never do that, as the finish really foams up then coming out of the brush and causes LOTS of tiny bubbles that do not all settle out in time. On the first coat I really have to re-load the brush a lot, as it just soaks into the wood. (The varathane stuff, for instance, advises agains shaking the can to avoid causing excess bubbles. I just stir it) The products have improved over the years. I recall back in the late 90s that the solids would settle out and you have to be careful to stir the can well. But in the past 5-10 years it is way better at keeping the solids in suspension. Best, ...art
I cut my water based finish 50:50 with floetrol and use it as a wipe on. The first coats always raise grain I find, so I always sand between coats. Coincidently, using pretty much the same grits you used. I had some of the thinned stuff stored and it separated. It seemed to mix back OK but I didn't seem to get as good of a result, so I would think only mixing up as much as you need at a time would be the way to go.
Water base - Expect the finish to be affected by water condensate (from a drink etc.) and from oil (from any oil based finish product container that sets on it). Expect it to be softer than a comparable oil based finish. Basically clear enamel paint.
I have used the GF on several projects and the results are pretty inconsistent. The best results I have gotten with that finish is when I poured the finish on the surface and then spread it with the foam brush. The Arm r Seal is not sold in California so the choice of oil base finishes is limited.
Matt, some BIG issues with water based poly are to load your brush lightly - not like you would load a bristle brush. Back and forth brushing is bad for water based poly. Always brush in a single direction. It keeps bubbles, puddles, runs to a minimum. Yes, you must sand between coats. I prefer water to oil base because of dry time, color, cleanup, and fumes.
Matt I know this is an old video but I just recently began experimenting with water based finish. I spray my finishes, so the air borne spray is pretty strong and requires quite a bit of precaution. I found that I could thin the General Finishes water base with a bit of water and spray it with my hvlp gun. It goes on very smooth and dries very fast. No oder or air borne overspray floating in the air as the particles are much heavier. Whether it's going to be as durable as oil based remains to be seen at this point, just wanted to pass on this info.
Yeah I made that same mistake (shaking the can) on my first guitar body. It ruined it. It looked like I left it in he rain. There were dozens and dozens of popped air bubble marks. Had to re sand back to the wood and start over. I've never shaken the can again. Never had much a problem using lesser foam brushed of course a guitar body isn't that big.
Nice experiment, and value added at the end! I've used Floetrol successfully with WB paints to improve flowability and eliminate brush marks, don't know if it is appropriate for clear finishes. My experiments with WB on furniture projects has not been good (except for WB dyes) and I've gone back to oil based, though that's getting harder to find here in southern California. I know everyone says oil "yellows" the wood but to my eye it richens the color and depth, as it did (for me) on all your samples. I even preferred the maple with oil. Thanks for taking the trouble to show this.
my two cents. I was sceptical at first with WB finishes too but soon changed my mind. technically they are similar to oil finishes. as with every finish it matters what you get (brand, type) and not the fact if it's WB or oil based. or acrylics vs polyurethanes. I think spraying WBs is the way to go. you can lay down much thicker coats than with brushing. and the gun cleanup is almost free. I remember the times I was going through half a can of solvents just to get my gun clean. especially with oil based opaque enamels. if it is above 20 deg C it will be ready for next coat after an hour. takes a little longer with brushing. spraying does not disrupt previous layers that's the advantage of gun. like oil based, the WB too melts into the previous layers easily. this stuff is actually not water based since there's no water in the can and no polymers can be made to disperse in water. they are glycol/alcohol based and the WB paint alone is somewhat "aggressive". as for choosing the WB finishes, always go with flooring or parquette finishes. at leasy here in EU these finishes have come a long way by now, but sure they cost twice as much as general purpose finishes like polycrylic etc
as for the milkiness: lighter wood tend to get even lighter, but on something like oak WB looks better than PU in my book. gives much more reddish hue instead of brown you get with oil based stuff. the milky/blueish appearance also serves as a visual clue. as soon as the milky effect is gone, you are ready for the next coat
Maybe it's just me but I love the sponge when I use the minwax polycrylic or a universal sander sealer. I get zero streaks or brush marks. But I must say your water based finish looked much that thicker than minwax so my guess is blame the product not the operator! Thanks for sharing.
You should have applied a thin coat without retouching it at all; you should have read the GP instructions; terrible critic to apply it improperly. Had you just left it alone and not used that sponge pad, it would have been diamond smooth without streaks
First off with the good, love your woodworking!!!! Now the bad, you need to use SANDING SEALER it is your friend also a fancy interweb woodworker like yourself should be using a nice HVLP set up. I see this vid is 4 years old so my guess is you have stepped up you game and are using a spray system. Mat thanks for all the vids ...
The only time I tried a water-based finish I had to completely strip and scrape it off of my project. It left a terrible white/blue tinge on the entire piece. It looked like someone had spilled milk across the entire surface. I was really disappointed. Looks like I'll be sticking to oil finishes. I definitely like the look better too.
Could a person darken the water-based finishes? Or what about 4-6 coats? I truly enjoy your videos. I have learned so much from you and your videos. Keep up the great work!
Has anyone tried General Finishes Enduro-Var? I use this almost exclusively as my go to water based finish. It goes on a bit streaky but lays down very flat when dry I use ordinary foam brushes.. 3 coats with light sanding between is all I ever need. The look is sort if in between a totally clear water based product and the warmth of oil based. I really like it.
A great video, Matt. Perhaps a follow up video is in store with some slightly different techniques such as thinning it down with some water, using a sprayer, or perhaps going back to a rag to apply the finish? It would be interesting to see some different techniques along side your current samples. Maybe? Huh? Maybe? Pretty Please? With sugar and chocolate on top? lol
You tube has very few knowledgable finishers. Finishes are basically science and engineering in a can. There is some art and a skill in applying. The folks who manufacture these products put directions on the can so hopefully the end result will be pleasing to you and this will lead you to buying more of the product. It's easy to conclude that if the finish looks less than grand that the product is to blame. Most quality products today will give a nice result if applied properly. YOU HAVE THE BEST CHANCE AT A GOOD RESULT BY FOLLOWING DIRECTIONS WRITTEN BY THE MANUFACTURERS. Fortunately there are 2 or 3 books on finishing , written by professionals, that are very helpful. Jeff Hewitt is one that comes to mind. Some of these (used) can be purchased very cheaply online. Matt I have enjoyed your videos for years. It's obvious this video made quite the stir. Lots of opinions were presented. Your video obviously gave us lots to think about. For these reasons it was a video worth your effort. Thanks.
Since water based finish raises the grain you said you need to sand it down before you apply the first coat. But doesnt water (inside the finish) always raise the grain again? Or ist that just the first time the wood gets contact with water ?
For my fellow DIYers out there: don't use this video as a how-to video or think it's an accurate review of the product. This is not a demonstration of this product's recommended application process. (Granted, he does say that he's experimenting, but still.)
"Finishing the finish" never applied more than with waterbased clear finishes. I have always found that the final coat needs to be sanded with high grits until the "brush" marks are gone. Sometimes it is best to give it more cure time first to avoid pilling up the sandpaper. Do this by hand only and in line with the grain. Wax will give you a nice sheen. The waterbased finishes don't level as well. Spraying produces a better surface finish.
Get some high end Bona brand water born floor finish ! We have some nice ones local here in Rio called Synteko and they have some good quality water born, I would say better then the bona! They are nice and thin to flow and with a Floor finishing Pad or a good brush will do a nice result
Even if you water pop the wood you're supposed sand after the first coat of poly, not before. When you sand it before the finish coat you're undoing the work the water did. Also, if you watch the general finishes video he recommends a footy to finish tabletops, although you may have been better off using the larger foam brush by pouring the finish into a tray.
Thanks. I have used water base on cedar. Was not impressed. Looks like bare wood. It was very thick like a runny glue. I used a foam brush. With oil finish I used a rag like you do. Much nicer out come.
Hi Matt, I've watched many of your finishing videos and am trying to decide between GF Arm-R-Seal and High Performance for my project and I wanted to see what you would recommend. I am going to dye a white ash tabletop with india ink, seal with sprayed de-waxed shellac (Zinssner BullsEye). For the top coat, I was originally planning to use Arm-R-Seal but then was considering what the "yellowing" effect would be on the black dye. Do you think that it would have that much of an effect on black? Should I just go with the High Performance? Thanks so much for any advice that you can offer.
Minwax water base stain has no sanding between coats. You have to rub the stain off after 3min, It is a total pain. I used the sponge brushes. My first application is blotchy. Gonna go get a real brush for the second coat. I really like the look of your oil base finish. I am staining a dining table. Do you prefer oil base for longevity? I wonder how long this water base is going to last???. Especially after cleaning up spaghetti sauce month after month. I may use the steel wool at the end and use a wax finish. Pretty sure I can wax over water base stain. Thanks
+Matthew Cremona It's a awesome finish for protection in the shop, not the best for bringing out the color or grain in the wood, stick with the GF oil. The best part is probably the HVLP clean up with water and dry time, I can spray a coat outside and sand and spray another coat within an 1 1/2 hours. I've got 7 large shop cabinets, carts to spray when I get the time to do it.
Hi Matt, I have recently started using a water based lacquer to spray wooden sunglass frames, Im having trouble getting a smooth shine finish, I sand between coats with a 400 sand paper, some videos suggest using very fine steel wool, have you used steel wool before, how does one go about using it? Thank you.
Many of those didn't have much difference between water based and oil based. Interesting...I would not have expected that. It really made the biggest difference on the maple, I think.
Hey Matt, I've never used an oil based finished but have used water based ones quite a bit. 1st thing, not all foam brushes are created equal. Cheap foam brushes will leave more streaks than the moderately more expensive ones. 2nd, never shake the can or push down on the brush to squeeze more finish out of it. These 2 actions create bubbles and bubbles are your enemy as they also create streaks. 3rd, I never sand the wood to higher than 150 grit as the finish doesn't seem to adhere as well to the higher grits and after 3 or 4 coats you can't really feel the wood grain coming through anyway. 4th, last but not least I always rub it down with some fine steel wool and then apply some paste wax and buff it out. That seems to give the piece a nice smooth feel.
I'm definitely not an expert, and I've never finished anything quite as large as your piece here, but that is the process that I have cobbled together from information that I've gleaned from the web and it seems to work pretty good so far. Sorry about the book but I just wanted to share my info with you.
Keep up the good work!
+FunWithWoodworking fantastic advice, mirrors my experience with water based poly quite accurately. When it works, it's beautiful~
+FunWithWoodworking Agreed, no shaking, leave the foam brush loaded up, don't squeeze it out. If in doubt, add more finish.
Well that's odd because the can of polycrylic I just used says not to use steel wool... 🤔 I'm waiting on my first coat to dry on our dinning table so I hope it's not too long of a process. (doing this at night while fam is asleep). I'm not liking that my bleached off weathered wood finish is now looking very orangey with this stuff so hope it dries better. Also the synthetic brush I used left terrible steaks since the table is round with a rounded border and pie sliced in center. Oy!
Excellent
You really shouldn't touch a water based finish with steel wool. Also, whats with the scrubbing away at it with the foam pad? Use a brush and apply it even and gentle. You're not painting a fence.
Matt, I used to sell General Finishes products and have used them extensively. Here are my suggestions. 1. Stirred gently, not shaken. 2. Spraying almost always produces a smoother finish. 3. If brushing, use liberal amounts and don't overwork it. Lay it on and leave it alone. Using an extender will give you more "open time" to apply to larger surfaces and improve leveling. 4. Because you are applying a thicker coat that dries faster, you will need to "finish the finish" with fine sanding to remove potential brush marks. 5. To deepen the color, pre-seal with either a stain, thinned de-waxed shellac, or boiled linseed oil (thoroughly cured). I hope that this was helpful.
As a person who used to sell General Finishes products what do you think about water based poly durability? I found contradicting opinions. Some people on the internet say it's better not to use water based polys for tabletops as they tend to fray in places of contact with people's elbows just in a couple of years.
Super helpful to see a “non-perfect” ending to a project. Typically you only see someone best work and not the errors they make or finishes they don’t love. Thanks for sharing
I use this water base product all the time, I am using it right now on a very smooth dining table. The directions on the can say, don't shake it, don't over work the product, and if it's too thick you can add some water. Your piece of wood is beautiful! The reason for your lines is that you were painting the finish on, over working the product. This water base finish is beautiful when applied properly. I was hoping to get some tips from your you tube video, I'm disappointed.
Matt, I did a spalted maple sofa table and used a water based (same brand) with a 'critter spray' gun. Worked great. no wet spots no brush marks builds coats faster.
Matthew, would love to see you re-try this product after following the manufacturer's instructions to a T and then give a "first impression" on it. How about a take two? :)
agree
upd: we use foam paint rolles in our shop to cover up kitchen countertops and office tables with poly+acril water based warnishes. finish comes out even and nice only in 2 coats with light sanding in between.
and, at the moment it's my favourite finish, because of: it's fast - 2-3 coats a day - easy-peasy. not smell (i'm smell sensitive and got headache freaking fast), it coul be layed upon any type of colour (water or oil based), no smell (shipped on the finishing day - ok!!) we dont have armr-seal here in Ukraine, just using some trade grade one.
I use those same foam applicators and get a flawless finish with waterbased poly. The first few coats aren't critical - just smash it out. The trick to a nice finish is to wait a few days for the finish to harden up and then wet sand it with 320grit and soapy water (dish washing liquid). Use a sanding block - you absolutely do not want to expose any wood fibers otherwise they will raise preventing a smooth finish; using a sanding block helps you sand the minimal amount to smooth out any bubbles/runs. Then with the final coat you need to work briskly but not overwork the finish - you only have about 1-2 minutes working time once you put finish onto the surface. If you brush too vigorously you'll introduce bubbles. Also never shake the can, only stir gently otherwise you also get bubbles. If you brush over an area that has already been down for 1-2minutes you will make streaks because the finish is already starting to dry. For large pieces you need careful planning to prevent brushing over areas that have been sitting too long and ruining the finish.
Nice demo Matt. I use water based poly quite a bit, and spraying is the best way to apply it. Also the GF also imparts a slightly more yellow color than Minwax Polycrylic. that product is very clear and imparts no color at all.
Thanks Guy! Sounds like some future experimentation is in order (and maybe a good spray setup...)
Matthew Cremona you over brushed the water base and it looked like way too light of a coat. To get the pop in darker woods I put oil or shellac on first and then h2o poly for the protection. Shellac for first couple coats is very easy....
I use the same finish. HVLP spray it and it is awesome. I can get 4 coats sprayed in one day with a light buff in between with an extra fine sanding pad. The finish is rock hard and clear. Highly recommended if it is sprayed.
What type of sprayer and psi do you use ?
I've used both oil and water based finishes on quite a few projects (as a hobby woodworker). I like both of them, but water based finishes are harder to apply and look good. What I have found out:
#1 there are *huge differences between the finishes* you can get. Some just won't give you a nice finish and will always have streaks for example no matter what you try.
#2 a *good brush* pays off with water based finishes. The coats should be very thin.
#3 it helps alot to *thin the finish* with water, especially on the first coat when the wood is sucking everything up (look at the label how much you can add, but 3 parts finish 1 part water always worked for me).
#4 if you have the choice *don't apply the finish in hot* or bone dry environments, it just dries too fast and won't flow.
#5 *don't touch anything* again that has had more than a few minutes to dry already, even if it looks like you have wet or dry spots and it is very tempting to smooth them. I guess this is the main reason for the streaks in your finish. Wait until everything is completely dried.
Thank you for sharing all these tip. I really appreciate it!
I use a water based poly on a lot of projects. What I know - and what you've likely learned using it - is you can't over work it. It dries fast, which means it tacks fast, which means overworking causes streaks. The sponge brush sux for water poly application. I use a natural bristle brush, work quickly along the grain with a wet edge. Sanding between coats is definitely required. Good looking desk top, though!! I'm uber jealous!!
When in Europe I always used water based finish, I can't get it here in Colombia, the main advantage for me, was as you said, the lack of odour. However I never used those sponge brushes, always a normal brush or rag.
It was nice to see the difference in colour change, interesting to see how little difference in the Oak. Thanks for the Vid, educational as always! :)
I tend to use water based a lot more often, although I tend towards minwax' polycrylic. I have used it a lot, and may have a few pointers. I generally stir the can rather than shaking to mix, because shaking it can lead to more bubbles and uneven finish. I tend toward regular brushes (there are some marked specifically for water based). I have had a ton of problems with the foam ones. Also, to reduce brush strokes, I tend to avoid over brushing. Since it dries so fast, if it has started to dry when you run the brush through, it will dig lines into it. If the stroke where you apply the finish is the only time you go over a spot, per coat, those lines should go away.
I hope you enjoyed the process, and keep trying new finishes, and filming them. seeing what does and doesn't work well on the first try, says a lot about the learning curve. there are a lot of finishes I have not tried due to the complexity. I guess I need more shop projects.
Hey Matt, I find myself using Minwax's water based oil modified poly pretty often. It's readily available at my home center most of the time. It's nice because I get the fast drying of a water based finish with an oil based look. I spray it as well.
I always have good results with those foam brushes and oil based finishes, but now I know to avoid them with water based. I always love the wood you pick. So much character.
I have sprayed this finish with an HVLP system and find it to lay down well and dry very well. I have also used the GF Enduro products with much better appearance on dark wood. I use the GF High Performance on light woods such as maple.
I have sprayed water finishes on mahogany in the past. I pore filled, and stained, then sprayed three coats. I was very happy with the results, you could not tell that it was a water based finish. Also it was a refinish job that was contaminated with silicone.
Thank you for all that. I tried foam brushes too, and will not use them again. Now I am onto your oil based, and wiping it on. I am getting much nicer finishes, now, and they apply and dry faster! Thanks Matt!
+David R. Darrow - drdarrow awesome to hear. Thanks David!
You can get that oil based look with water based finishes - do one or two coats of shellac as a sealer before the top coats. You can use straight shellac or Target Coatings has a product called ultra seal WB shellac. I've used that under their water based lacquer EM6000, it's probably compatible with any waterbased top coat but should be tested. I've used both straight shellac and the Target product and like them, I find the straight waterbase on it's own does not bring out the grain and colour as well.
Recently I've used water-based lacquer and liked a lot . I also had to add honey bee because I was using pine wood and needed to give it a tone similar to bamboo. Very useful tips, Matt.
Hey shaking your finish will add bubbles which will leave marks on applied finish. Stir thoroughly and slowly
I have used the water based finish on my stairs and found out that as all the people said (don't shake) and you have to flow the product on the material keeping it as wet as you can I used small floor application pad pour the finish on the stair and flow it, the streaks will disappear as long as you don't smooth it out too much especially important on the 2 and 3 coat use the abrasive pad to smooth out any dust or raised grain came out really nice and smooth almost like a some clear plastic coat
cool video matt great tips!! I like the water based finishes too for a natural look, they way i go about it is as follows: between 5-7 light coats with a foam brush let each coat dry 3-4hrs come by with a quick 340grit sand between each coat and wipe with tack cloth. let the final coat cure with previouse coats for 3-4 weeks depending on conditions. start wet sanding from 600-2000 grit with water and a few drops of soap. clean all reisdue, and hand buff with cotton rag and rubbing compound until semi or gloss. if you do not buff after wet sanding the polycrilic it will have many defects but not to worry give it a buff and scuffs and scratches come crystal clear!!
I've used General Finishes Enduro Var satin and wiped it on with a rag with excellent results. You may want to try this.
HI Matt. I’ve used both finishes over the years and prefer WB to oil based, Small shop, safety, and finish as well. I never use a foam brush with WB. On Cherry and Walnut I use boiled linseed oil then shellac then the WB finish. The TC I use depends on the application. I have used GF High performance, GF Endurovar poly, GF Lacquer (really like that one) and a brand WB from Sherwin Williams. On most of my projects I use an HVLP spread system to apply the top coats.
Spray system, darn fingers
I used waterbase finish on my Walnut toolchest built and was really happy with how it turned out. a oil base would have got the wood too dark and I was going for a natural finish. I used a soft bristle brush to apply mine and applied a thick coat, didn't have issues with flow out..I used polycrilic from minwax.. Nice top by the way..
Thanks for the info Tomy. I think a good brush would be the way to go for hand applying this. Thanks again!
I always get better results with a water based poly using a good quality synthetic brush and not shaking the can but stirring thoroughly. Thanks for the video.
You may want to try yourself a foam roller and then follow up with a brush to remove any fine bubbles. Here in Alaska where I can't get good ventilation indoors in the winter, I tend to use the water-based finish is a lot. I've had very good success with the foam rollers. I can also say if you use lighter and later pressure as you spread the material, you will reduce the air bubbles to a great degree. Then you just need to follow up with a good quality brush. I find the poly acrylic to be quite thick, and rarely do I need more than two coats. Sometimes one is enough.
I can also say spraying these water-based finishes is the best, but unless you've got good ventilation and a super dust free environment you can create more problems than you solve. I think the roller method works well so long as you follow up with the brush to get rid of the bubbles.
Here in Israel it's quit warm so WB varnish dries to quickly to flat it self. So first coat is thinned with water so it penetrates deeper as well as flattening. Other coats should also be thinned with water.
Matt, I know it's a lot more effort but I use a spray gun to apply water base finish, I thin it down 2parts finish to 1 part water , 2 coats , sand with 400 and then 2 more coats and sand with 600, if I want super smooth finish i'll buff with Minwax finishing paste ,
I never get any brush streaks , and clean up of the spray gun is easy, I hope this helps, Cheers.
PS: I don't use it on small projects (only stuff for the kids), mainly furniture and larger pieces
My technique for applying a finish like that, (water based) is only different at the end of the second coat (immediately after the sealer coat). When you went back and noticed that it was already tacky and starting to dry, I immediately put on a heavy coat, right over that. Then let it dry for a full day. As you said, it doesn't flow well, so when it's tacky, you can really build up that coat. After that first coat (or 1.5 coat) is dry after a full day, go back with 220 and you can actually sand it flat to avoid those marks.
I always like these compare and contrast videos. I'm an oil finish guy too, but I've tried the polycrylic over painted surfaces (open shelving) and it really turned out nice. And then tried on bare wood, not so nice, in fact I threw the piece away.
I recently tried the stuff you just used, GF HP on bare white cedar wood sanded to 180 grit, and it did come out nice but the grain was muted. I did apply it with a rag, flooded the surface and really rubbed it in and then lifted off the excess with one of those foam brushes. I think rubbing in with the was the ticket .
Can: Stir thoroughly, DO NOT SHAKE
Matt: *shakes can*
😂
I used GFHP Water Based on a cherry end table...sprayed the outer parts of the table, sanding between coats. 5 coats and then took it to a buffer, the buffer i use for the guitars I build, and I buffed out the outer services of the table... Used the sponge brush on internal areas of the table and after the first coat began to apply a thicker coat, allowing me to sand down past the application streaks creating a flat finish.
For final finishes, I pretty much always use a nice, like $10-$20 brush, its worth it.
I have not used the GF high performance water based finish but I have used the Minwax Polycrylic. As you said it is thicker than what you typically use, the Arm-R-Seal, so I dilute it with water just a little. I like the fast dry time so I use it on stuff like stained cabinets and doors. If you want the "oil" look with the water based finish you can add a coat or two of SealCoat and then the GF HP finish. I really like your desk top, by the way.
I use a good quality Hamilton synthetic brush for water based varnishes, stains or paint and natural bristles for oil bound paint, varnishes etc. I would never lay varnish in the regular painting motion but load the brush with enough varnish to do one single sweep across the surface with overlapping. Just my method of course but varnish never looks good when overlapping. If any is missed just catch it on the next coat.
+Matthew Cremona Matt, i use waterbased alot. i try to avoid it on darker wood since it gives a kinda white-ish hue. works really good on light woods though (looks alot better on birch or beech [plywood] than oilbased stuff). you can thin out your finish with 5 to 10% of water, which makes it a lot more fluid and less streaky. with that method you could even use a rag to apply (woodwhisperer style, no rub in). since this stuff dries so fast you absolutely should not go back to surfaces you worked minutes ago.
Thanks for that Matt. I seem to be the only person using sealer. With oil-based it's easy, just add thinner to the varnish. With water-based, you have to buy the sealer already thinned. Water-based varnishes do not contain water and "should not" raise the grain unless you add the water, but there is enormous variation between brands. I get good results when I start with a water-based sealer, though perhaps my "good results" may differ from yours.
Very informative, Matt. I switched to GF arm-r-seal after watching you use it a couple of times, and I really love working with it. I have never used any of their water-based products, so this video was really useful for me. Thanks!
Thanks for the demo. I started using Arm-R-Seal after watching your Ask Matt #12 and have been very happy with it. After watching this video I don't see myself changing anytime soon.
Arm-R-Seal Fan Club :) I'm sticking with it as well
There is a wipe on poly acrylic available but I haven't tried it. As the name applies it is wiped on with a cloth and rubbed into the wood rather than with a brush. That might might make application easier but I think the color would be the same result. There is a finish for every type of wood that works best for the wood grain and color. I like to test to see what works the best.
Thanks Kim! Wipe is what I'm most used to so I'll have to give that a try in the future. I think this is going to be my finish of choice for maple. I think it looks great not being all yellow.
I use a lot of water based poly clear finish and for me, using a good quality brush provides good results. I also lay it on thin. I love water based clear finish bc i prefer the look of natural wood.
+Anthony Hall It's possible but man did the surface look like butt before I did that. It looked like it would have dried with a very uneven film and probably deeper streaks. I don't have any mahogany to try them on but I'm guessing the results would be similar to the walnut sample. Maybe someone has some experience with WB vs OB finish on mahogany and will chime in. Thanks as always, Anthony!
Very nice demonstration and analysis of the water based finish. I would like to offer two suggestions for your consideration: 1. thin the finish to improve its flow characteristics. This should give you the more uniform application you seek, 2. Use a rag to apply the finish, you are more comfortable with this method of application and it gives you the more intimate relationship with the wood for which you are known, If others want to use foam brushes, so be it, stay with what you know.
Cheers my friend.
I’ve used a water based varnish recently too, it dries very quickly which is great but I didn’t like the application because it left brush marks and it foams up if you overwork it too much in more intricate areas. I wasn’t really very happy with the finish either, I didn’t bother sanding in between coats because of time. It was very rough and tacky feeling and the wood looked so cold. I dont know why you’d prefer this over a lovely amber hue
Good demo and comparison Matt. I looked on the GF site and a pad type applicator with a nylon stocking over it was used as another application method. I saw your answer about spraying. Kind of like the idea of using less toxic finishes if you can get the results you want. Thanks!
Good video, Matt. You hit pretty much all the pros and cons. It's a PITA to use, and does build a more "plasticky" feeling finish due to the thickness. On the upside, WB is the standard for wood floors due to its abrasion resistance, and it is much more resistant to UV yellowing than OB coatings. Still, if you want to feel the wood, my experience has been that you really have to wet sand the dried WB finish at the end.
That was a great overview, Matt! I don't know if I mentioned it before, but I finish furniture for my living. You were 100% correct about alternative application methods, spraying is ideal but a decent brush would also serve you far better than those, awful, foam things. I'd also suggest a final 0000 wire wool rub down to even things out.
All the best, Martin.
I don't think I knew that about you, Martin. I'm sure you got a good laugh out of my feverishly amateur attempts here :) Thanks for the tips!
+Matthew Cremona ha ha, don't worry, Matt, your finishing is no worse than my woodworking!
For a proper finish with waterbourne, sanding to max 120-150 grit is enough. 3 coats to be applied, if the finish is gloss or high gloss, the first coat should be a matt. Use paint additive 10-25 percent and 10 percent water to have a good flow and wet edge for longer time. Sanding in between coats with 240-300 grit. Leave at least one day of drying time between coats for proper curing. You'll get a finish nearly as with epoxy. Coat it continuously in the grains' direction, use a soft brush from Purdy or Wooster. For big surfaces roller is good as well Wooster Pro Do Z, short pile.
Thanks for this video, you might have done it wrong in some ways, but that allows people to point it out and allows a lot more to know the mistake and to avoid it.
I've had great results with oil polyurethane and a foam chisel tip brush. Never brushed on waterborne top coat. Maybe using the same technique would work? My method is to slowly stir the finish in the can for 5 minutes then pour only what I'll need into a 5" wide plastic paint tray. Then I gently place the foam brush in the tray and let it soak for a few minutes. I then gently set the tip on the surface of my work and slowly drag it along as the finish slowly flows out of the brush/tip. I'm always careful not to press the brush into the work or the tray, that creates bubbles. Patience is the key, at least when laying on oil based finish and a brush. Done right it's glassy smooth and maybe one or 2 tiny bubbles. I wonder if the same technique would work with a waterborne topcoat.
Have to jump on the "this video shows everything not to do" bandwagon. I just completed the third coat on some bare wood maple shelves with the GF High Performance Satin. They look great, not too shiny and very smooth. As someone commented below, the foam brush you use matters. Big Box stores sell very soft ones. I buy them a dozen at a time on Amazon; they're quite firm.You can also successfully pad it on with a cloth as my local Klingspor recommends. Bare wood should be sanded to 220, no more than 320. Use a purpose made tack cloth for water-based finishes after sanding and between coats which should be leveled with a Grey Finishing Pad. Don't shake the can as many have mentioned which also goes for oil based stains. Stir with a plastic stir stick which can be washed and re-used, not discarded. High performance isn't a reactive finish like lacquer or BLO but it is forgiving enough that a dried run can be easily removed with a card scraper with little evidence it's there, after another coat is applied.
Dude!!! You shook the can to mix it! Huge mistake! Never shake clear coats, it creates bubbles. Bubbles are bad.
Bubbles don't remain in water based like they do oil. But your right
@@garittlajoie8841 remember bro that is an experiment so we let him go what he want. I am your new friend from Philippines
Garitt Lajoie yes they do!!!!
Makes sense..im so use to shaking paint..i will deff not shake it...any tips on a good water base clear to use over my wood floor??? Can i stain it first???
Its sanded down to bare wood
Thanks for this video. I'm still piecing together my shop, so this is great info to have once I get going.
Great video! like Lance's Workshop said, I use the poly-acrylic for my shop furniture which is mostly birch plywood cabinet construction trimmed with poplar or oak.. for that purpose it is convenient, seems to look and hold up well and like you pointed out, doesn't tint the wood. I've used both Minwax's & General Finishes HP polyacrylic finish and have to say that I think the Minwax brushed on better and definitely left a superior finish and seems to require 1 less coat then the GF to achieve the desired build up. And thanks to your vid, I will definitely skipping the water based finishes all together on any nice cherry or walnut, etc. projects ;) cheers!
Tip, never shake any stain like that especially water based, treat it like poly this avoids bubbles, think dawn dish soap when added to water it foams. Secondly use a synthetic paint brush then wipe it down, so soak it then wipe it on, less sanding and I never need more than 180 grit sand paper, after that go to your pads or steel wool and buff it out.
Although he called it stain, he was using General Finishes High Performance water based poly TOP COAT. Not stain. So yeah, he should've followed the directions. He messed up LOTS of things that were stated clearly on the can and website. Best learning tip: when using something you've never used before, read all directions and tips, don't just assume it's to be used like other things.
Matt great information. I have used the Minwax version, I sprayed it and I liked the first 2 coats, the 3rd and 4th coat made the project very milky looking. I always loved GF products and I was happy to see your opinion
Thank you! That's strange that it would turn milky on subsequent coats
Matt, thank you for the video. I wonder if the streaking was introduced when you brushed over the tacky first coat with the wider foam brush. One thing that General Finishes stresses is not going over the already covered area too often. They recommend letting that coat dry before covering any 'holidays'.
I thank you for the comparison as well because I have only used the water based finish thus far. I am about to finish a mahogany project and I'm wondering how Arm-R-Seal compares with the HP water based on this species.
I really appreciate your videos. Happy woodworking.
Yup. I wrote that too.
That's a great resource Matt. Our finishes here in Australia are all different as you'd expect but the results are the same. I personally use mainly water based finishes, I pre wet to avoid the furries and I generally thin the finish when applying. You're killing it mate, hope everything is going really well wuth both new family and work.
I gave up on brushing water based finish. The finish dries very very quickly and I am not quick enough to apply the finish evenly.
I also apply a layer of shellac before I apply the water based finish. Even with raising the grain if I do not apply the shellac I still get fibres in the finish.
When spaying the water based finish, by the time I complete 1 layer where I started is dry enough to begin the second layer so the project can be completed in 1 spray session.
Hey Matt! Good video demo.
I've been using waterbased finishes for years, but never the General brand. (not so commonly available up here.) Most of my experience is with the Flecto Varathane Diamond finish, from Rust-oleum. But also some experience with the minwax stuff. That General product did look thicker than the Rust-oleum or Minwax stuff I am used to.
How did you find that finish for bubbles? On the first coat you were mashing the brush down several times forcing out the finish. I would never do that, as the finish really foams up then coming out of the brush and causes LOTS of tiny bubbles that do not all settle out in time. On the first coat I really have to re-load the brush a lot, as it just soaks into the wood. (The varathane stuff, for instance, advises agains shaking the can to avoid causing excess bubbles. I just stir it)
The products have improved over the years. I recall back in the late 90s that the solids would settle out and you have to be careful to stir the can well. But in the past 5-10 years it is way better at keeping the solids in suspension.
Best,
...art
Wordsnwood (Art Mulder)
Can I use rag for water base finish?
I cut my water based finish 50:50 with floetrol and use it as a wipe on. The first coats always raise grain I find, so I always sand between coats. Coincidently, using pretty much the same grits you used. I had some of the thinned stuff stored and it separated. It seemed to mix back OK but I didn't seem to get as good of a result, so I would think only mixing up as much as you need at a time would be the way to go.
Thanks for the info on thinning, Jim!
I first learned of floetrol from one of Linn's videos on the Darbin Orvar channel
Water base - Expect the finish to be affected by water condensate (from a drink etc.) and from oil (from any oil based finish product container that sets on it). Expect it to be softer than a comparable oil based finish. Basically clear enamel paint.
I have used the GF on several projects and the results are pretty inconsistent. The best results I have gotten with that finish is when I poured the finish on the surface and then spread it with the foam brush. The Arm r Seal is not sold in California so the choice of oil base finishes is limited.
Matt, some BIG issues with water based poly are to load your brush lightly - not like you would load a bristle brush. Back and forth brushing is bad for water based poly. Always brush in a single direction. It keeps bubbles, puddles, runs to a minimum. Yes, you must sand between coats. I prefer water to oil base because of dry time, color, cleanup, and fumes.
Matt I know this is an old video but I just recently began experimenting with water based finish. I spray my finishes, so the air borne spray is pretty strong and requires quite a bit of precaution. I found that I could thin the General Finishes water base with a bit of water and spray it with my hvlp gun. It goes on very smooth and dries very fast. No oder or air borne overspray floating in the air as the particles are much heavier. Whether it's going to be as durable as oil based remains to be seen at this point, just wanted to pass on this info.
+Richard Heishman thanks for the info Richard!
Yeah I made that same mistake (shaking the can) on my first guitar body. It ruined it. It looked like I left it in he rain. There were dozens and dozens of popped air bubble marks. Had to re sand back to the wood and start over. I've never shaken the can again. Never had much a problem using lesser foam brushed of course a guitar body isn't that big.
thanks for all of your videos it was awesome to see all of the side-by-side comparisons thank you
Nice experiment, and value added at the end! I've used Floetrol successfully with WB paints to improve flowability and eliminate brush marks, don't know if it is appropriate for clear finishes. My experiments with WB on furniture projects has not been good (except for WB dyes) and I've gone back to oil based, though that's getting harder to find here in southern California. I know everyone says oil "yellows" the wood but to my eye it richens the color and depth, as it did (for me) on all your samples. I even preferred the maple with oil. Thanks for taking the trouble to show this.
I've done water base poly both ways brush on and spray on. From my experience it's got to be sprayed on for good results.
markmooredesign what is the pressure set at on the gun?
my two cents. I was sceptical at first with WB finishes too but soon changed my mind. technically they are similar to oil finishes. as with every finish it matters what you get (brand, type) and not the fact if it's WB or oil based. or acrylics vs polyurethanes. I think spraying WBs is the way to go. you can lay down much thicker coats than with brushing. and the gun cleanup is almost free. I remember the times I was going through half a can of solvents just to get my gun clean. especially with oil based opaque enamels. if it is above 20 deg C it will be ready for next coat after an hour. takes a little longer with brushing. spraying does not disrupt previous layers that's the advantage of gun. like oil based, the WB too melts into the previous layers easily. this stuff is actually not water based since there's no water in the can and no polymers can be made to disperse in water. they are glycol/alcohol based and the WB paint alone is somewhat "aggressive". as for choosing the WB finishes, always go with flooring or parquette finishes. at leasy here in EU these finishes have come a long way by now, but sure they cost twice as much as general purpose finishes like polycrylic etc
as for the milkiness: lighter wood tend to get even lighter, but on something like oak WB looks better than PU in my book. gives much more reddish hue instead of brown you get with oil based stuff. the milky/blueish appearance also serves as a visual clue. as soon as the milky effect is gone, you are ready for the next coat
Maybe it's just me but I love the sponge when I use the minwax polycrylic or a universal sander sealer. I get zero streaks or brush marks. But I must say your water based finish looked much that thicker than minwax so my guess is blame the product not the operator! Thanks for sharing.
You should have applied a thin coat without retouching it at all; you should have read the GP instructions; terrible critic to apply it improperly. Had you just left it alone and not used that sponge pad, it would have been diamond smooth without streaks
First off with the good, love your woodworking!!!! Now the bad, you need to use SANDING SEALER it is your friend also a fancy interweb woodworker like yourself should be using a nice HVLP set up. I see this vid is 4 years old so my guess is you have stepped up you game and are using a spray system. Mat thanks for all the vids ...
The only time I tried a water-based finish I had to completely strip and scrape it off of my project. It left a terrible white/blue tinge on the entire piece. It looked like someone had spilled milk across the entire surface. I was really disappointed. Looks like I'll be sticking to oil finishes. I definitely like the look better too.
Could a person darken the water-based finishes? Or what about 4-6 coats? I truly enjoy your videos. I have learned so much from you and your videos. Keep up the great work!
Has anyone tried General Finishes Enduro-Var? I use this almost exclusively as my go to water based finish. It goes on a bit streaky but lays down very flat when dry I use ordinary foam brushes.. 3 coats with light sanding between is all I ever need. The look is sort if in between a totally clear water based product and the warmth of oil based. I really like it.
A great video, Matt. Perhaps a follow up video is in store with some slightly different techniques such as thinning it down with some water, using a sprayer, or perhaps going back to a rag to apply the finish? It would be interesting to see some different techniques along side your current samples. Maybe? Huh? Maybe? Pretty Please? With sugar and chocolate on top? lol
good tips Matt. finish is always something that i don't quiet understand and usually end up slapping on some ugly paint.
Thanks for sharing.
You tube has very few knowledgable finishers. Finishes are basically science and engineering in a can. There is some art and a skill in applying. The folks who manufacture these products put directions on the can so hopefully the end result will be pleasing to you and this will lead you to buying more of the product. It's easy to conclude that if the finish looks less than grand that the product is to blame. Most quality products today will give a nice result if applied properly. YOU HAVE THE BEST CHANCE AT A GOOD RESULT BY FOLLOWING DIRECTIONS WRITTEN BY THE MANUFACTURERS. Fortunately there are 2 or 3 books on finishing , written by professionals, that are very helpful. Jeff Hewitt is one that comes to mind. Some of these (used) can be purchased very cheaply online. Matt I have enjoyed your videos for years. It's obvious this video made quite the stir. Lots of opinions were presented. Your video obviously gave us lots to think about. For these reasons it was a video worth your effort. Thanks.
Since water based finish raises the grain you said you need to sand it down before you apply the first coat. But doesnt water (inside the finish) always raise the grain again? Or ist that just the first time the wood gets contact with water ?
For my fellow DIYers out there: don't use this video as a how-to video or think it's an accurate review of the product. This is not a demonstration of this product's recommended application process. (Granted, he does say that he's experimenting, but still.)
Yes I agree. Plus, it's hard to convert an oil based guy! I actually prefer the water based look on most woods.
Trying new finishes is fun and exciting, but a little intimidating, especially going from a sample to project. Nice video Matt
"Finishing the finish" never applied more than with waterbased clear finishes. I have always found that the final coat needs to be sanded with high grits until the "brush" marks are gone. Sometimes it is best to give it more cure time first to avoid pilling up the sandpaper. Do this by hand only and in line with the grain. Wax will give you a nice sheen. The waterbased finishes don't level as well. Spraying produces a better surface finish.
Thanks for this video. It was really informative to see the differences in results.
Get some high end Bona brand water born floor finish ! We have some nice ones local here in Rio called Synteko and they have some good quality water born, I would say better then the bona! They are nice and thin to flow and with a Floor finishing Pad or a good brush will do a nice result
Hello Matthew! I am from sweden and a new subscriber because you realy motivate me to woodworking! Thank you
if you find it too thick, you could always dilute it with water and put another coat to compensate.
Even if you water pop the wood you're supposed sand after the first coat of poly, not before. When you sand it before the finish coat you're undoing the work the water did.
Also, if you watch the general finishes video he recommends a footy to finish tabletops, although you may have been better off using the larger foam brush by pouring the finish into a tray.
Also, don't shake the can! Stir.
+kichaa13 that's a myth. it been proven that shaking the can does not cause airbus blessed in your work but rather the vibration of the applicator
+kichaa13 air bubbles *
Thanks for the tips and the comparisons off oil vs. water finishes on various woods. BTW, I despise foam "brushes" as well.
I used that product before and is easy to work with
Nicely done Matt - what a huge difference on the walnut and cherry! - I liked to overhead camera shot as well ;)
Thanks Nick! I figured you would :)
Thanks. I have used water base on cedar. Was not impressed. Looks like bare wood. It was very thick like a runny glue. I used a foam brush. With oil finish I used a rag like you do. Much nicer out come.
Thx for the samples in the end. I guess you can still apply water based finish with a rug. Rug always gives thiner layer then brush ...
Good point. I'll have to try that in the future
Hi Matt, I've watched many of your finishing videos and am trying to decide between GF Arm-R-Seal and High Performance for my project and I wanted to see what you would recommend. I am going to dye a white ash tabletop with india ink, seal with sprayed de-waxed shellac (Zinssner BullsEye). For the top coat, I was originally planning to use Arm-R-Seal but then was considering what the "yellowing" effect would be on the black dye. Do you think that it would have that much of an effect on black? Should I just go with the High Performance? Thanks so much for any advice that you can offer.
That is one nice shop desk top. Personally, I think the oil looks better on the samples. Great video.
Thanks Douglas! The oil really does some nice stuff to the wood :)
Minwax water base stain has no sanding between coats. You have to rub the stain off after 3min, It is a total pain. I used the sponge brushes. My first application is blotchy. Gonna go get a real brush for the second coat. I really like the look of your oil base finish. I am staining a dining table. Do you prefer oil base for longevity? I wonder how long this water base is going to last???. Especially after cleaning up spaghetti sauce month after month. I may use the steel wool at the end and use a wax finish. Pretty sure I can wax over water base stain. Thanks
The garage door needs some insulation! lol I use the GF High Performance on all my shop furniture, I use my HVLP tho, awesome stuff, drys really fast!
lol It's so ugly :) I bet the easy clean up is super nice for HVLP
+Matthew Cremona It's a awesome finish for protection in the shop, not the best for bringing out the color or grain in the wood, stick with the GF oil. The best part is probably the HVLP clean up with water and dry time, I can spray a coat outside and sand and spray another coat within an 1 1/2 hours. I've got 7 large shop cabinets, carts to spray when I get the time to do it.
Hi Matt, I have recently started using a water based lacquer to spray wooden sunglass frames, Im having trouble getting a smooth shine finish, I sand between coats with a 400 sand paper, some videos suggest using very fine steel wool, have you used steel wool before, how does one go about using it? Thank you.
Many of those didn't have much difference between water based and oil based. Interesting...I would not have expected that. It really made the biggest difference on the maple, I think.