Yeah, I mean just look at all of the teams in the grand tour running Assiomas and then compare that to the measly number using Shimano products. A low budget company like Shimano stands no chance against a powerhouse like Favero 🤣
Shimano have been very busy, so you can't expect too much. Busy buying Pioneer's power meter and head unit business (and immediately shutting it down just to stop others buying it), keeping standards proprietary, and issuing what amounts to a cease and desist to Hammerhead. Until they change their ways I've bought my last Shimano group set. Their business ethics are absolutely horrible.
@@pmcmpc hammerhead is now a SRAM company. We don't know what happened. It's always a deal between two businesses and it's complicated if both sides are big and competing each other.
@@el3ktrik0 we know exactly what happened. Shimano doing what they've done since time immemorial - anticompetitive practice and screwing the consumer. Why do you think they kept their own private branch of ANT+ when EVERYONE else uses the open standard.
Calling a spade a sp… p.o.s! I’m so glad I didn’t wait for these. Thanks to your reviews, my trusty Assioma Duos have never failed. No issue, no fuss, it just works. Appreciate the hours that went into this one 👍
Excellent video as usual. I finally had the Ultegra version arrive this week,only to find that it could not be fitted due to the lack of clearance for the battery. Looks like I had a lucky escape. I decided to upgrade my existing Garmin pedal to dual sided, and am now very pleased that I did. Thanks for some great content, keep them coming. I would be interested in a deep dive into what power info you can get from the Garmin pedals and a wahoo roam.
Rewatching again because of Lanterne rouge link, this was very well done. It's amazing that so many pros treat what their shimano power meters readings as gospel.
Great video Shane! Almost bought a Shimano power meter crank a few weeks ago but went with the Assiomo Duo because of your information in previous videos! Great work as always!👍👍
Assioma favero to rule them all. Dura ace chains and ultegra cassettes is all I can afford for my riding. Great work Shane on this video. This crank is as much as my bike was back in 2015 and that was 1650
That drift has to be caused by the bonded clamshell construction. Once the "loadcell" is stressed the zero point changes from force between the inner and outer parts and gets a preload +/-. it has to be the glued joint/construction. I see this all the time in the industry from over stressed load cells where the glue holding the strain gauges fails and results in bad return to zeros.
I have 4iiii r7000 dual PM. I wonder if the drive side suffers from the same problem? Since the 105 is not a clamshell design like the Ultegra and the Dura-Ace.
Thx for testing! I ordered a Ultegra PM in march and used Assioma Duo’s in the meanwhile. After seeing this video I abandoned the ordered and bought a extra pair Assioma’s (Ok; Uno’s) as they are great: saving me € 750,- and get better data as well😇
Glad I watched the whole video rather than whining when I read just the headline. I have the Gen 2 DA PM also and after a couple indoor tests against a Neo 2T and Assioma DUOs, I concluded Shimano had fixed all the issues and stopped testing. I guess it's time to start double- and triple-recording again and seeing if I get the same drift you notice on longer rides and after sprints, etc. Another great review, Shane!
@@gplama Will do, sir. The DA PM is on my race bike, so I'll put that bike back on the trainer so that I can triple record my next interval workout. I'll be in touch soon.
Absolutely appreciate everything you do GPLama. I've been eagerly awaiting this review. I bought an Sworks Tarmac SL7 with Dura Ace 9200 earlier this year. Given supply issues, Specialized shipped their new tarmacs with 4iiii precision pro dual sided power meters. Consistent with what you've seen in previous generations and with the p9200s, the right side has been reading extremely low, such that my unit is telling me that my power imbalance is 60/40. I haven't had issues with major power asymmetry and it appears that this issue may persist across all dura ace 9200 power meters. :( I have an extra set of dura ace 9200 4iiii precision pro s (switched crank lengths) if you'd like to test additional 9200 power meters.
Interesting. I've been in contact with 4iiii (and the other similar pm companies) to test/review their dual and single sided 9200/8100 offerings, but I've had nothing from them to date. If you're in Australia I'll take you up on the offer to test the 9200 you have for sure!
Thank you for your channel and work. It has been massively insightful and wish I had come across it sooner. I have recently received one of these as a warranty replacement from "the Bike Brand" for a 4iiii version that came with my bike. The 4iiii gave highly inflated readings (8-12x) with only 500km on it. (it was a stock issue and they offered this unit) I have calibrated the 9200P, and the magnet, several times but the unit reads a lower power number than my new Wahoo Kickr 5. I have 2 other power meters (Quarq and Power2Max) on 2 other bikes and they read slightly higher than the trainer. These are older bikes, and they have actually always read slightly higher than the Wahoo 4 and the 5 now. I put it down to "drivetrain friction" I just did a 90min ride on the trainer and the power reading on the 9200P is 11w more than the wahoo. The 9200P seems to be less accurate at lower power numbers. From about 20% at 80w and about 5-7% at 180 w- 200w. Your unit on test read higher numbers. Any recommendation on how to try and tackle this would be greatly appreciated. My old road bike had a Quarq, it was bullet proof, miss it now.
Great review Shane! I have been testing since 3 weeks and I have the same problem, R side reading 7-15 w low. Very frustrating and will be returning to LBS.
@@gplama yes will do, I was waiting for this full review after your first feedback Months ago, unfortunately for me I pulled the trigger a bit too early. I thought Shimano would have fixed the issues but sadly no. I can’t even imagine how frustrating it must have been testing/analysing this. But what a super in depth analysis, will save a lot of people a lot of $$$…
Thanks Shane. Sad to hear really that in this day and age they can still get it so wrong at this price point. My Duo's continue to serve me well. As an aside, it amazes me Pushy's can run these site wide sales at times, I just grabbed a pair of 808 NSW's from them, already reduced, then 15% off. The price was below what anyone was selling secondhand. I almost felt bad buying them and getting the express postage option.
Thanks for the great comparison. I would not buy any bike that has this power meter pre-installed. Accuracy is important at any price point, but certainly for a crank that costs this much.
Small/big ring discrepancy is interesting. I wonder how accurate you have to be with the install… magnet placement and phone photographs seem prone to inaccuracies…
I’d also add the battery charge indication is good or Red and not any actual number on the Wahoo ELEMNT or E-TUBE app. And, the E-TUBE app is Bluetooth which stops working on the battery when charge is in the Red (LED) range.
Blows my mind that a company can do something so right and so good then tack on a complete piece of crap too it and somehow think that people buy top tier gear won't notice. Guess the really want to cater to dentists.....
I think it's a case of the issue being small enough that a lot of riders just don't care. 100W in a sprint.... 20W during a strength effort... an offset that drifts a few %... Things that would largely go unnoticed unless doing direct comparisons.
@@invisiblescout6335 pros don't ride the same crap they sell to the public. They get handpicked, and custom crafted parts and equipment, that may happen to have the same label.
@@gplama wouldn't these be a breach of the fair trading act down under. After all +/-1.5% is spacific and Shimano do not state that the accuracy applies only under spacific conditions. Ask for your money back, that would be a fantastic video experience.
Shimano went to a direct mount chainring design for M9100 XTR in 2018 - Simple, symmetrical and easy to get accurate power. I was beyond amazed when in 2021, R9200 was announced with same old integrated crank spider. How on earth can Shimano still get road cranks so wrong? Is it some weird Japanese ego thing about doggedly staying with 'their' design?. SRAM uses direct mount on its MTB and Road with no such power accuracy issues.
100% with you David. They've chosen aesthetics over function (as a power meter). The crank works brilliantly as a crank... I'm sure they could do a great job designing a nice looking spider crank/meter.
@@gplama Now that I think about XTR M9100 and it's design, It was very much a case of Shimano going against their conservative instinct and being forced to copy SRAM's MTB drivetrains. At the time in 2017-2018, almost zero OEM's specified Shimano's high end 11 speed MTB groupsets on their bikes. Maybe it takes a lesson like that to cause a change in thinking.
I will not agree here, M9100 uses a tapered spline, those are a pain in the a## to remove, y prefer the simplicity of the clamp design. And the preload system is much nicer on the road design than the collar on M9100.
Just found your Channel and respect and thanks for the good deep dives. But when comparing the tolerance they should be multiplied (or at least added together) to check for differences considering one device can be 1% low and the other 1.5% high and still both would be in specc. (and i think even that would not be fully correct but physics class was a long time ago😀)
Thanks Shane, the original (which languishes on a bike but I don't bother to charge) was a huge miss by Shimano. This should have been a significant improvement, maybe not perfect - but much closer. No doubt they know this already, so not fit for purpose - unless you just want a power meter to keep up with the dentists on your cafe run. A real shame.
my new sl7 came with DA Di2, and the right sided power meter pretty much never worked from the go. currently only using the left-sided power meter. local specialized bike shop i bought it from said that specialized is completely out of warranty units to replace them with, due to having so many warranty claims thus far. they instructed the LBS to purchase a dual-sided Stages and send them the invoice, so currently waiting on that to come in. Looking at this, maybe i should push for Assioma pedals though...
Chris, did you receive the precision pro dual sided power meter as well? The right side power numbers are laughable. Is this a known issue based on your discussions with the Specialized Store?
I reached out to them, and they aren't sure they are going to make one. The old style does fit the new rings, but it isn't a pretty sight. Fortunately the 11 speed chainrings work well with the 12 speed drivetrain, so I've been doing that.
Huge price mind you. I had the 9100 cranks and they were nice but often pondered just how much they cost to make. Probably $200 or less for this power crankset.
Thanks for the great video! Can you say something about the technology used and why the hell a magnet is needed in times of MEMS gyroscopes? For an expensive powermeter, it doesn’t even show state-of-art technology or performance.
Thx for the great in depth review. Shame. I thought the new more symmetrical looking right crank arm would have made it much easier to fix the problem? Obviously goes deeper at the shimano R&D headquarters. Shouldn't be that hard for the right people, with the right qualifications should it?
me too. i borrowed a mate's assioma duos and they tracked very closely. my understanding is that inaccuracy failings are down to the casting of the 9100...if it's good it's good if not...it's not. and there seems to be a notable amounts of 'if not'. i'd assume the same problem has continued over to the 9200? shane?
I'm wondering if the big discrepancies we are seeing on the right crank are due the hollow bond construction. Will be interesting to test the ultegra level R8100-P to test if it's more accurate as is hollow forged on both sides. Maybe the 2% claim accuracy is trash and is actually cheaper and more accurate.
Unless the glue line is failing, no, this isn't the culprit. It's still geometry and not being clever enough or watching my videos which explain exactly what to test and how to fix it.
@@Cedille R9200 left crank is forged, right is bonded. R8100 is all forged. I have both in front of me and glue lines are visible on the r9200 right crankarm. While left is clearly forged.
@@kwakeham The calibration process mandates you specify the position of the magnet, assuming this is to know where the crank arm is more precisely than an accelerometer, but probably this is not good enough, what about to add strain gauges near the bolts threads making a mix of a spider/crank powermeter, that will be enough to have accurate power + precise L/R balance? I can confirm that I have more accurate data on the small ring than on the big ring on a R9200P
Love the channel always. Better than anybody you’d know if Faveros vary across bikes. I’ve just performed a test on a 4th bike to send data to Favero (duos) because I’m suddenly getting varying results between bikes (5% swing). Do you find any difference between carbon and alloy cranks?
Installation with/without washers can cause variation in readings. Carbon cranks usually need pedal washers. Install torque also a factor. Are you doing any static weight tests?
@@gplama thanks for the reply. Static weight test resulted in inconsistent results on the left but because the power is in spec on one of my road bikes (with alloy cranks) they haven’t accepted they’re wrong. Tried with 0, 1 and 2 washers. I’ll look at DC Rainmakers software because I’m getting 42:58 balance on carbon cranks. All suspiciously started after at the last firmware update
Just wondering what effect if any these errors have on left / right balance reads? I need the left right reads for a pelvis problem and I can knowingly live with actual power read problems if the left right balance reads are correct. Understand the right side seems to be the issue so at a guess I expect it is incorrect on left right too but curious about your thoughts on this. Appreciate any feedback
very thorough! However is it really an issue on the cycle computer end? won't it combine L/R numbers for power display? Yes there's L/R differences (and the power in-discrepancies you've identified) (hopefully you don't have a shrinking right quad😀) but ultimately we want a power meter to consistently read watts. How does it compare when you combine the numbers - there must be a averaging that takes place to get it to a single power number? Then is it consistent? And then how does it compare to other meters? In other news I did a zwift survey and you were one of the answers as to where do you find your information from. hehe Lama is bigger than zwift inc propaganda department. They should have included dcrainmaker as well. I hope they're paying you for your outstanding tech content.
Total power is shown in all the data sets before showing left/right. This meter isn’t consistent. The drifting offset (resolved by performing a zero offset) alone means it doesn’t match specification as sold.
It doesn't work nearly as well when doing high cadence spinning. On my Kickr if I concentrate and spin as smoothly as possible I can get it to read 60-70rpm when I'm doing 115-120rpm.
@@gplama I hope they don’t. SRM cater to track riders amongst their other offerings, and judging by the fact that Shimano haven’t updated their track offering since DA 7710, I’m not so sure they would continue to serve the track community post acquisition.
Hi, did you notice, Shimano just released a firmware update for DuraAce Di2 group set and R9200-P Power Meter to connect both via ANT+ to combine the watt value with the used chain ring for more accuracy. Maybe you can recheck it again?
Hi Shane, I don't think my PM is ready correct results. I have a r9100p drive side and r9200 non drive, I read this isn't an issue, what else could it be? Where the magnet is stuck to the frame?
This was 4 months ago :) Any Update? These Powermeters have so much negative comments, they are freaking bargain if it was fixed :D (Dura-Ace with Rings for 600!) @@gplama
@@man1ac85 I've since done THREE more videos on how shit the R8100-P with the updated firmware is. Shimano have a right mess on their hands.... and are being total arseholes towards me because of how THEIR product performs. I'd keep clear of their power meter junk until it's proven to work... and we're not lied to by sponsored teams about its performance.
@@gplama Thanks for your honest reply! Dont now why I didnt found your video you released. Would you think its fixeable by Firmware or just a shitty design? Thanks for your tests and insights, helped me various times to not buy proven junk. have you ever tested Inpeak Stuff?
@@man1ac85 No idea if they can ever resolve their issues with their current gauge placement. See my videos on the Stages R8100/R9200 cranks for how that company solved the issue with better gauge placement. I've tested some early InPeak meters. I met with them at Eurobike last year with the goal of testing their latest offerings.... they haven't replied to emails/requests since.
Slightly off-topic but can you share the Zwift workout you use for power meter testing? I need it for a friend on Apple TV so it probably needs to be in a format that I can import into training peaks and then transfer to Zwift on Apple TV via the connector. Is there an easier way to get custom created workouts on an Apple TV?
I haven't shared the Lama Lab Test to date. It can be reproduced pretty easily within the workout editor on Zwift Mac or PC. Once created on Zwift Mac/PC, it'll sync to your Zwift account in the cloud and appear on any other machine you log into Zwift on (ATV, etc).
I am struggling with the right 4iiii precision pro power meter running low. I haven't historically had a big L/R power assymmetry, but I am consistently getting L/R average balance readings of 55/45 to 60/40. I think this is just a continuation of the problems GP lama flagged with previous generations of Shimano's asymmetrical cranksets :(
Takehome lesson. If you want to win a sprint in Zwift use powermeter pedals. Wonder if this is this a torque vs sampling period issue on the right side? The 300hrs is a long time between charges. Not the best of weeks for Lama! Now to dodge some magpies...
@@accrualworld4488 I have never heard of any series that bans power pedals. KISS Super League banned some trainers that were over reading back in 2019 but no power pedals have ever been banned and plenty of A and A+ racers use power pedals. Maybe there are some series that ban them but there is certainly no blanket ZwiftPower ban as you claim.
I feel genuinely bad you had to buy this to review it given how expensive it is. Do they not test. Surely their labs would put where I worked to shame.
I’ve been using the FC-9200p for 6 months. Not mentioned but I’m hoping that someone else has took the time to verify the specified 300 hours charge life. I’m consistently measuring 100 to 125 hours. Before I replace it, it’s important to me see if the 1/3 stated charge life is how it’s designed or mine is defective. Can anyone please help?
Anything will work. As long as the calibration process is performed with their app after the magnet is installed. (Although this is still a potato of a power meter.....)
Sorry, but HOW MUCH? SRAM Red 670, Force 370, Rival 220 Euros. Ok, not really dual sided with two sensors, but they deliver good data (in contrast to Shimano). No Force Vector, but also no need for Magnets (yay we have 2022, so... magnets?). And with SRAM, you don't have to ditch a whole crankset. You can get the full range of SRAM powermeters for the price of this one, plus some money left for a 840, maybe.
How about a test of the 105 dual side power meter? I'm curious if the problem with the right side is an issue with the hollow design of the crank arm and the fact that they are glued together. The 105 is a little heavier and therefore has more material which might make for a more reliable experience.
To note Shimano beefed up this crank compared to the last one probably thinking it would address the documented power issues and stop failures. I’m good with the left 4iiii 105
@@gplama no, but R8100 ultegra is hollow forged on both sides, DA R9200 is hollow forged on the left and hollow bond on the right. Si maybe is a difference there?
Very nice video!!! Could not help to notice when you installed the crank. When you tighten the plastic 'screw' into the left hand side crank arm. Did you used force to tighten it? or did you stopped when you felt resistance? Per Shimano spec you should just leave it when you feel restistance, otherwise you are overloading the bearings. just a small thing, anyway hard to see how it could affect numbers
Help Please, I have this power meter on my new bike. PM is paired with my Garmin, It;s able to connect to shimano app (e-tube), It is fully charged, but is not reading any power/cadence data, only show zero (0), any suggestion? thanks
@gplama hmmmm if it is not accurate why do teams like UAE still uses it? Im pretty much confused now im planning to get one but your review hold's me back🤔
I personally can’t see the point of duel. I had a set of StagesPower and had balance set up on a screen. Left 52/Right 48 everyday rides. Yet in a Crit race that has can have 48km/h Av it’s a 50/50 balance. Ended up splitting them up so could run on two bikes.
You just explained exactly why you need dual. There’s discrepancy in balance at various levels of intensity. You train with zones based on %ftp, if there is a discrepancy your zones will be incorrect in the lower range compared to ftp test.
@@rein2523 exactly. It's a fallacy that people can "know" their left right balance. It's consistent in its inconsistency. You save money in the end getting a power meter that reads both sides, it stops the ever present "is it correct?" thoughts with single sided.
My crankset has 500km and it stopped giving the power and cadence while riding. The battery is full The etube app finds the crankset The light isn t blue while magnet setting
@@gplama Happy to ship you my spare 9200 crankset with 4iiii precision pro dual sided power meters. I'm running into the same issue with right side consistently running low.
Thanks for the thousands of hours of work you've put in for the community and all the equipment you've purchased to test!
It's not really fair to compare a small startup like Shimano, who's just trying to make a low budget power meter for the everyday folks.
Yeah, I mean just look at all of the teams in the grand tour running Assiomas and then compare that to the measly number using Shimano products. A low budget company like Shimano stands no chance against a powerhouse like Favero 🤣
Ahhh.... I appreciate the humour here Galen. This is exactly what I like to see after a week of not-so-ideal happenings in the Lama Lab. 🤣
Shimano have been very busy, so you can't expect too much. Busy buying Pioneer's power meter and head unit business (and immediately shutting it down just to stop others buying it), keeping standards proprietary, and issuing what amounts to a cease and desist to Hammerhead. Until they change their ways I've bought my last Shimano group set. Their business ethics are absolutely horrible.
@@pmcmpc hammerhead is now a SRAM company. We don't know what happened. It's always a deal between two businesses and it's complicated if both sides are big and competing each other.
@@el3ktrik0 we know exactly what happened. Shimano doing what they've done since time immemorial - anticompetitive practice and screwing the consumer. Why do you think they kept their own private branch of ANT+ when EVERYONE else uses the open standard.
Calling a spade a sp… p.o.s! I’m so glad I didn’t wait for these. Thanks to your reviews, my trusty Assioma Duos have never failed. No issue, no fuss, it just works.
Appreciate the hours that went into this one 👍
Thanks for the Super Thanks! 🙏🏼
Killer stuff as always Shane. Thanks, man. Have no idea how Shimano keeps blowing this.
Excellent video as usual. I finally had the Ultegra version arrive this week,only to find that it could not be fitted due to the lack of clearance for the battery. Looks like I had a lucky escape. I decided to upgrade my existing Garmin pedal to dual sided, and am now very pleased that I did. Thanks for some great content, keep them coming. I would be interested in a deep dive into what power info you can get from the Garmin pedals and a wahoo roam.
Thanks for all you do, GPLama!
Rewatching again because of Lanterne rouge link, this was very well done. It's amazing that so many pros treat what their shimano power meters readings as gospel.
Wow that took a LONG time to be released. I was initially told March or April. Couldn't wait so bought the Assioma Duos. Glad I didn't wait
Getting the popcorn NOW
Solid video mate.
Great video Shane! Almost bought a Shimano power meter crank a few weeks ago but went with the Assiomo Duo because of your information in previous videos! Great work as always!👍👍
Assioma favero to rule them all. Dura ace chains and ultegra cassettes is all I can afford for my riding. Great work Shane on this video. This crank is as much as my bike was back in 2015 and that was 1650
That drift has to be caused by the bonded clamshell construction. Once the "loadcell" is stressed the zero point changes from force between the inner and outer parts and gets a preload +/-. it has to be the glued joint/construction. I see this all the time in the industry from over stressed load cells where the glue holding the strain gauges fails and results in bad return to zeros.
I have 4iiii r7000 dual PM. I wonder if the drive side suffers from the same problem? Since the 105 is not a clamshell design like the Ultegra and the Dura-Ace.
Lol tell that to Hambini, he'll be delighted! 😂
Thx for testing! I ordered a Ultegra PM in march and used Assioma Duo’s in the meanwhile. After seeing this video I abandoned the ordered and bought a extra pair Assioma’s (Ok; Uno’s) as they are great: saving me € 750,- and get better data as well😇
Glad I watched the whole video rather than whining when I read just the headline. I have the Gen 2 DA PM also and after a couple indoor tests against a Neo 2T and Assioma DUOs, I concluded Shimano had fixed all the issues and stopped testing. I guess it's time to start double- and triple-recording again and seeing if I get the same drift you notice on longer rides and after sprints, etc. Another great review, Shane!
Keep me posted with your results Dan.
@@gplama Will do, sir. The DA PM is on my race bike, so I'll put that bike back on the trainer so that I can triple record my next interval workout. I'll be in touch soon.
Absolutely appreciate everything you do GPLama. I've been eagerly awaiting this review. I bought an Sworks Tarmac SL7 with Dura Ace 9200 earlier this year. Given supply issues, Specialized shipped their new tarmacs with 4iiii precision pro dual sided power meters. Consistent with what you've seen in previous generations and with the p9200s, the right side has been reading extremely low, such that my unit is telling me that my power imbalance is 60/40. I haven't had issues with major power asymmetry and it appears that this issue may persist across all dura ace 9200 power meters. :( I have an extra set of dura ace 9200 4iiii precision pro s (switched crank lengths) if you'd like to test additional 9200 power meters.
Interesting. I've been in contact with 4iiii (and the other similar pm companies) to test/review their dual and single sided 9200/8100 offerings, but I've had nothing from them to date. If you're in Australia I'll take you up on the offer to test the 9200 you have for sure!
Thanks for the update. Does the power meter with 4kiiii read well or you still have issues?
@@zakymaa I haven't heard anything from 4iiii about P3 updates/changes.
I'm waiting Shane's video when the crank arms lunch themselves.
I've had two sets of 6800 cranks develop drive side cracks - Shimano clearly knows about it, yet is valuing lightness over robustness...
Amazing, thank you Shane for putting in the hours for us!
Great analysis. So happy I have the assimo uno
Suprised how light yours is. Mine weighed in a 752g 172.5mm 52/36. 30g heavier than an ultegra crankset. Crazy!
Excellent analysis. Thanks for all the work you put into this, and for sharing it. Makes me re-consider my interest in buying a Shimano power meter.
They are probably aware of it hence you have to buy them yourself to test, at least making you pay for them before bashing it.
Incredible work as always Shane!
Thanks for the 5ver Rich! 👊🏼
Very nice of them to put the zero calibration button in a convenient place. Almost as if they knew you'd have to use it all the time!
Thank you for your channel and work. It has been massively insightful and wish I had come across it sooner.
I have recently received one of these as a warranty replacement from "the Bike Brand" for a 4iiii version that came with my bike. The 4iiii gave highly inflated readings (8-12x) with only 500km on it. (it was a stock issue and they offered this unit)
I have calibrated the 9200P, and the magnet, several times but the unit reads a lower power number than my new Wahoo Kickr 5. I have 2 other power meters (Quarq and Power2Max) on 2 other bikes and they read slightly higher than the trainer. These are older bikes, and they have actually always read slightly higher than the Wahoo 4 and the 5 now. I put it down to "drivetrain friction"
I just did a 90min ride on the trainer and the power reading on the 9200P is 11w more than the wahoo. The 9200P seems to be less accurate at lower power numbers. From about 20% at 80w and about 5-7% at 180 w- 200w.
Your unit on test read higher numbers.
Any recommendation on how to try and tackle this would be greatly appreciated.
My old road bike had a Quarq, it was bullet proof, miss it now.
One for Shimano support. They need to provide technical support for their own products.
@@gplama Thanks for taking the time to read, appreciate it.
Now I am very glad I went for a 9200 groupset without powermeter.
Great review Shane! I have been testing since 3 weeks and I have the same problem, R side reading 7-15 w low. Very frustrating and will be returning to LBS.
Let me know how the return process goes.
@@gplama yes will do, I was waiting for this full review after your first feedback Months ago, unfortunately for me I pulled the trigger a bit too early. I thought Shimano would have fixed the issues but sadly no. I can’t even imagine how frustrating it must have been testing/analysing this. But what a super in depth analysis, will save a lot of people a lot of $$$…
Thank you Shane. this video made my weekend. SUBSCRIBED!
As usual, a ridiculous level of detail.
Thanks for sharing
Amazing review as always. Important and honest work.
Thanks Shane. Sad to hear really that in this day and age they can still get it so wrong at this price point. My Duo's continue to serve me well. As an aside, it amazes me Pushy's can run these site wide sales at times, I just grabbed a pair of 808 NSW's from them, already reduced, then 15% off. The price was below what anyone was selling secondhand. I almost felt bad buying them and getting the express postage option.
Do you think the accuracy will improve when the right side crank debonds?
Lol😂
Well done mate!
I’ll stick to spider based pms. Power2max ng, quarq, and srm.
Brilliant video, again. 👍👍👍
*Hyped AF* for this!
Sorry!
@@gplama I was expecting just this. Sticking with Quarq for now.
Thanks!
Thanks Austin! 👊🏼
@@gplama Very thoughtful video. Hope this offsets the 2 grand hunk of garbage.
Great review Shane, I'll continue riding my trusty Favero Duos
Thanks for the great comparison. I would not buy any bike that has this power meter pre-installed. Accuracy is important at any price point, but certainly for a crank that costs this much.
Thank you Shane!
Small/big ring discrepancy is interesting. I wonder how accurate you have to be with the install… magnet placement and phone photographs seem prone to inaccuracies…
I’d also add the battery charge indication is good or Red and not any actual number on the Wahoo ELEMNT or E-TUBE app. And, the E-TUBE app is Bluetooth which stops working on the battery when charge is in the Red (LED) range.
Blows my mind that a company can do something so right and so good then tack on a complete piece of crap too it and somehow think that people buy top tier gear won't notice.
Guess the really want to cater to dentists.....
I think it's a case of the issue being small enough that a lot of riders just don't care. 100W in a sprint.... 20W during a strength effort... an offset that drifts a few %... Things that would largely go unnoticed unless doing direct comparisons.
@@gplama insanae how Shimano has sponsored professionals riding on this shit
@@invisiblescout6335 pros don't ride the same crap they sell to the public.
They get handpicked, and custom crafted parts and equipment, that may happen to have the same label.
@@gplama wouldn't these be a breach of the fair trading act down under. After all +/-1.5% is spacific and Shimano do not state that the accuracy applies only under spacific conditions. Ask for your money back, that would be a fantastic video experience.
Yes, it would be. I don’t think anyone has raised this with the authorities…. yet.
Shimano went to a direct mount chainring design for M9100 XTR in 2018 - Simple, symmetrical and easy to get accurate power. I was beyond amazed when in 2021, R9200 was announced with same old integrated crank spider. How on earth can Shimano still get road cranks so wrong? Is it some weird Japanese ego thing about doggedly staying with 'their' design?. SRAM uses direct mount on its MTB and Road with no such power accuracy issues.
100% with you David. They've chosen aesthetics over function (as a power meter). The crank works brilliantly as a crank... I'm sure they could do a great job designing a nice looking spider crank/meter.
@@gplama Now that I think about XTR M9100 and it's design, It was very much a case of Shimano going against their conservative instinct and being forced to copy SRAM's MTB drivetrains. At the time in 2017-2018, almost zero OEM's specified Shimano's high end 11 speed MTB groupsets on their bikes. Maybe it takes a lesson like that to cause a change in thinking.
I will not agree here, M9100 uses a tapered spline, those are a pain in the a## to remove, y prefer the simplicity of the clamp design. And the preload system is much nicer on the road design than the collar on M9100.
Each video you do I become more thankful I have always ran SRAM since I started riding. Thanks for doing the research for us!
fantastic video - thanks for sharing!
Just found your Channel and respect and thanks for the good deep dives. But when comparing the tolerance they should be multiplied (or at least added together) to check for differences considering one device can be 1% low and the other 1.5% high and still both would be in specc. (and i think even that would not be fully correct but physics class was a long time ago😀)
Thanks Shane, the original (which languishes on a bike but I don't bother to charge) was a huge miss by Shimano. This should have been a significant improvement, maybe not perfect - but much closer. No doubt they know this already, so not fit for purpose - unless you just want a power meter to keep up with the dentists on your cafe run. A real shame.
Favero Assioma, ~Au$1100, 2+ years, 16,000+ km, move between bikes in under 10mins, 100% reliability for me, faultless. End.
Me too. Copied the GPLama Xpedo hack and bashed the hell out of them racing gravel. Still faultless.
my new sl7 came with DA Di2, and the right sided power meter pretty much never worked from the go. currently only using the left-sided power meter. local specialized bike shop i bought it from said that specialized is completely out of warranty units to replace them with, due to having so many warranty claims thus far. they instructed the LBS to purchase a dual-sided Stages and send them the invoice, so currently waiting on that to come in. Looking at this, maybe i should push for Assioma pedals though...
Chris, did you receive the precision pro dual sided power meter as well? The right side power numbers are laughable. Is this a known issue based on your discussions with the Specialized Store?
Angry week in the Lama Lab. 😅
For sure, it has been a shitty week. There's even more failures that remain unpublished. Bring on the weekend.. I need to go for a long ride.
@@gplama just go ride with trusted hardware 🤣. Sometimes we all need a break from testing stuff.
Hard pass!! I’ll wait for Quarq to make a PM that matches the new chain rings!! Thanks for the info!
I reached out to them, and they aren't sure they are going to make one. The old style does fit the new rings, but it isn't a pretty sight. Fortunately the 11 speed chainrings work well with the 12 speed drivetrain, so I've been doing that.
Huge price mind you. I had the 9100 cranks and they were nice but often pondered just how much they cost to make. Probably $200 or less for this power crankset.
I'm very curious what Shimano's response will be.
Thanks for the great video! Can you say something about the technology used and why the hell a magnet is needed in times of MEMS gyroscopes? For an expensive powermeter, it doesn’t even show state-of-art technology or performance.
Likely used for their Force Vector feature adopted from their acquisition of the Pioneer power meter tech.
Thx for the great in depth review. Shame. I thought the new more symmetrical looking right crank arm would have made it much easier to fix the problem? Obviously goes deeper at the shimano R&D headquarters. Shouldn't be that hard for the right people, with the right qualifications should it?
Mine quit after 2 weeks and it took from june to April to have a replacment shipped.
Been using 9100 p for a few years and it’s pretty accurate for me. I was wondering if the new generation has gotten better. So far, not sure yet lol
me too. i borrowed a mate's assioma duos and they tracked very closely. my understanding is that inaccuracy failings are down to the casting of the 9100...if it's good it's good if not...it's not. and there seems to be a notable amounts of 'if not'. i'd assume the same problem has continued over to the 9200? shane?
I'm wondering if the big discrepancies we are seeing on the right crank are due the hollow bond construction. Will be interesting to test the ultegra level R8100-P to test if it's more accurate as is hollow forged on both sides. Maybe the 2% claim accuracy is trash and is actually cheaper and more accurate.
Unless the glue line is failing, no, this isn't the culprit. It's still geometry and not being clever enough or watching my videos which explain exactly what to test and how to fix it.
@@kwakeham the sprint imbalance I agree. The drifting should be software/temperature corrections calculations.
@@Cedille R9200 left crank is forged, right is bonded.
R8100 is all forged.
I have both in front of me and glue lines are visible on the r9200 right crankarm. While left is clearly forged.
@@kwakeham The calibration process mandates you specify the position of the magnet, assuming this is to know where the crank arm is more precisely than an accelerometer, but probably this is not good enough, what about to add strain gauges near the bolts threads making a mix of a spider/crank powermeter, that will be enough to have accurate power + precise L/R balance?
I can confirm that I have more accurate data on the small ring than on the big ring on a R9200P
Favero Assioma:precision, ease, reliability, flexibility
Love the channel always. Better than anybody you’d know if Faveros vary across bikes. I’ve just performed a test on a 4th bike to send data to Favero (duos) because I’m suddenly getting varying results between bikes (5% swing). Do you find any difference between carbon and alloy cranks?
Installation with/without washers can cause variation in readings. Carbon cranks usually need pedal washers. Install torque also a factor. Are you doing any static weight tests?
@@gplama thanks for the reply. Static weight test resulted in inconsistent results on the left but because the power is in spec on one of my road bikes (with alloy cranks) they haven’t accepted they’re wrong. Tried with 0, 1 and 2 washers. I’ll look at DC Rainmakers software because I’m getting 42:58 balance on carbon cranks. All suspiciously started after at the last firmware update
I would love to hear if Shimano will refund or change the unit cause of this “out of specs” reason ;)
Bedankt
Just wondering what effect if any these errors have on left / right balance reads? I need the left right reads for a pelvis problem and I can knowingly live with actual power read problems if the left right balance reads are correct. Understand the right side seems to be the issue so at a guess I expect it is incorrect on left right too but curious about your thoughts on this. Appreciate any feedback
Oh yeah! On another note, what happens when the battery no longer holds charge? Does it become an expensive paper weight???
very thorough! However is it really an issue on the cycle computer end? won't it combine L/R numbers for power display? Yes there's L/R differences (and the power in-discrepancies you've identified) (hopefully you don't have a shrinking right quad😀) but ultimately we want a power meter to consistently read watts. How does it compare when you combine the numbers - there must be a averaging that takes place to get it to a single power number? Then is it consistent? And then how does it compare to other meters?
In other news I did a zwift survey and you were one of the answers as to where do you find your information from. hehe Lama is bigger than zwift inc propaganda department. They should have included dcrainmaker as well. I hope they're paying you for your outstanding tech content.
Total power is shown in all the data sets before showing left/right. This meter isn’t consistent. The drifting offset (resolved by performing a zero offset) alone means it doesn’t match specification as sold.
Someone should tell Shimano that we already have magnetless cadence sensor technology. 🤫
They need to acquire SRM and sort this mess out. Just as SRAM did with Quarq.
It doesn't work nearly as well when doing high cadence spinning. On my Kickr if I concentrate and spin as smoothly as possible I can get it to read 60-70rpm when I'm doing 115-120rpm.
@@donwinston do you have a cadence sensor on your cranks or is Zwift reading from your Kickr?
@@gplama They would just shut down SRM and try again with their design… Same as with Pioneer.
@@gplama I hope they don’t. SRM cater to track riders amongst their other offerings, and judging by the fact that Shimano haven’t updated their track offering since DA 7710, I’m not so sure they would continue to serve the track community post acquisition.
It would be interesting to see how the new Ultegra Powermeter performs...the 8100-R
I wouldn't expect it to be any better.
Hi, did you notice, Shimano just released a firmware update for DuraAce Di2 group set and R9200-P Power Meter to connect both via ANT+ to combine the watt value with the used chain ring for more accuracy. Maybe you can recheck it again?
I'm happy to retest if I can get a hold of a R9200-P or R8100-P.
Hi Shane, I don't think my PM is ready correct results. I have a r9100p drive side and r9200 non drive, I read this isn't an issue, what else could it be? Where the magnet is stuck to the frame?
Best contact Shimano support.
2007 called and wants its frame-mounted magnet back.
Still not sure why Shimano doesn't have power pedals 🤔
Hey Shane, I love my Wahoo Speedplay Dual Power Pedals. How would u compare to the Shimano Powermeter?
🤔
thank god for the NGEcos and 2inpowers of the world!
Do you have any testing if the 9200 crank could be used with everything else being 11 speed drive train
which one is the most reliable/accurate? this one r9200p or one-sided stages PM?
Don´t know how my L and R balance of my legs are...
How do the numbers look after the latest update released end of October? Would be super interesting... thanks for all your work!
I'll know in a few days. I've had to purchase another meter to test the update.
This was 4 months ago :) Any Update? These Powermeters have so much negative comments, they are freaking bargain if it was fixed :D (Dura-Ace with Rings for 600!)
@@gplama
@@man1ac85 I've since done THREE more videos on how shit the R8100-P with the updated firmware is. Shimano have a right mess on their hands.... and are being total arseholes towards me because of how THEIR product performs. I'd keep clear of their power meter junk until it's proven to work... and we're not lied to by sponsored teams about its performance.
@@gplama Thanks for your honest reply! Dont now why I didnt found your video you released. Would you think its fixeable by Firmware or just a shitty design?
Thanks for your tests and insights, helped me various times to not buy proven junk.
have you ever tested Inpeak Stuff?
@@man1ac85 No idea if they can ever resolve their issues with their current gauge placement. See my videos on the Stages R8100/R9200 cranks for how that company solved the issue with better gauge placement. I've tested some early InPeak meters. I met with them at Eurobike last year with the goal of testing their latest offerings.... they haven't replied to emails/requests since.
Thank you. Can you do the same test on the ultegra version? Or do you think that it will be same?
If I can get a hold of one, sure. I won't be buying one any time soon.
Slightly off-topic but can you share the Zwift workout you use for power meter testing? I need it for a friend on Apple TV so it probably needs to be in a format that I can import into training peaks and then transfer to Zwift on Apple TV via the connector. Is there an easier way to get custom created workouts on an Apple TV?
I haven't shared the Lama Lab Test to date. It can be reproduced pretty easily within the workout editor on Zwift Mac or PC. Once created on Zwift Mac/PC, it'll sync to your Zwift account in the cloud and appear on any other machine you log into Zwift on (ATV, etc).
I need to go rewatch Keith’s video but would you speculate there would be same issues upgrading non pm R8100/R9200 cranks to stages, 4iiii etc. L/R?
Highly likely. Will need to test/review to confirm.
I am struggling with the right 4iiii precision pro power meter running low. I haven't historically had a big L/R power assymmetry, but I am consistently getting L/R average balance readings of 55/45 to 60/40. I think this is just a continuation of the problems GP lama flagged with previous generations of Shimano's asymmetrical cranksets :(
Takehome lesson. If you want to win a sprint in Zwift use powermeter pedals. Wonder if this is this a torque vs sampling period issue on the right side? The 300hrs is a long time between charges. Not the best of weeks for Lama! Now to dodge some magpies...
That’s not allowed in the Zwiftpower events. They read around 4% higher than the trainers.
@@accrualworld4488 I have never heard of any series that bans power pedals. KISS Super League banned some trainers that were over reading back in 2019 but no power pedals have ever been banned and plenty of A and A+ racers use power pedals. Maybe there are some series that ban them but there is certainly no blanket ZwiftPower ban as you claim.
I feel genuinely bad you had to buy this to review it given how expensive it is. Do they not test. Surely their labs would put where I worked to shame.
I’ve been using the FC-9200p for 6 months. Not mentioned but I’m hoping that someone else has took the time to verify the specified 300 hours charge life. I’m consistently measuring 100 to 125 hours. Before I replace it, it’s important to me see if the 1/3 stated charge life is how it’s designed or mine is defective. Can anyone please help?
What software allows you to look at the left/right power time series separately? In Garmin Connect I can get the balance ratio% but not line graphs
www.dcrainmaker.com/analyzer
hi shane!
my friend bought one and the builder lost his magnet (that’s what he said), can you use normal magnet that’s not came from shimano?
Anything will work. As long as the calibration process is performed with their app after the magnet is installed. (Although this is still a potato of a power meter.....)
Sorry, but HOW MUCH? SRAM Red 670, Force 370, Rival 220 Euros. Ok, not really dual sided with two sensors, but they deliver good data (in contrast to Shimano). No Force Vector, but also no need for Magnets (yay we have 2022, so... magnets?). And with SRAM, you don't have to ditch a whole crankset.
You can get the full range of SRAM powermeters for the price of this one, plus some money left for a 840, maybe.
That's sad for the price asked! 😅 Assioma are still the gold standard!! Is the new wahoo pedal powermeter just as good as assioma duo?
They reportedly develop excessive play in the bearings over time. Look for the test on cyclingtips.
How about a test of the 105 dual side power meter? I'm curious if the problem with the right side is an issue with the hollow design of the crank arm and the fact that they are glued together. The 105 is a little heavier and therefore has more material which might make for a more reliable experience.
I wasn’t aware there was a 105 dual sided meter.
If shimano ever makes a 105 power meter, I bet GPLama will be all over it.
To note Shimano beefed up this crank compared to the last one probably thinking it would address the documented power issues and stop failures. I’m good with the left 4iiii 105
My bad, its a 105 crankset with 4iiii power on both sides
@@gplama no, but R8100 ultegra is hollow forged on both sides, DA R9200 is hollow forged on the left and hollow bond on the right. Si maybe is a difference there?
Very nice video!!! Could not help to notice when you installed the crank. When you tighten the plastic 'screw' into the left hand side crank arm. Did you used force to tighten it? or did you stopped when you felt resistance?
Per Shimano spec you should just leave it when you feel restistance, otherwise you are overloading the bearings. just a small thing, anyway hard to see how it could affect numbers
It wasn't snugged down too tight.
What if I purchased a bike that came with th 9200-p … am I stuck with it?
Is there a recall or something by Shimano?
Best ask Shimano.
Can you provide a link to Keith Wakeham's video?
ruclips.net/video/Zwt4Bx_FGHU/видео.html
Shane the cycling tech 🐐 💯.
Help Please, I have this power meter on my new bike. PM is paired with my Garmin, It;s able to connect to shimano app (e-tube), It is fully charged, but is not reading any power/cadence data, only show zero (0), any suggestion? thanks
Sorry to hear you're having issues, but I'll have to defer you straight to Shimano support.
@gplama hmmmm if it is not accurate why do teams like UAE still uses it? Im pretty much confused now im planning to get one but your review hold's me back🤔
I personally can’t see the point of duel. I had a set of StagesPower and had balance set up on a screen. Left 52/Right 48 everyday rides. Yet in a Crit race that has can have 48km/h Av it’s a 50/50 balance. Ended up splitting them up so could run on two bikes.
You just explained exactly why you need dual. There’s discrepancy in balance at various levels of intensity. You train with zones based on %ftp, if there is a discrepancy your zones will be incorrect in the lower range compared to ftp test.
@@rein2523 exactly. It's a fallacy that people can "know" their left right balance. It's consistent in its inconsistency. You save money in the end getting a power meter that reads both sides, it stops the ever present "is it correct?" thoughts with single sided.
My crankset has 500km and it stopped giving the power and cadence while riding.
The battery is full
The etube app finds the crankset
The light isn t blue while magnet setting
Soo, currently Canyon is selling some bikes with the integrated 4iii Dura-Ace and/or Ultegra, is that a better option then?
Yet to see/test any third party L/R meters using the 8100/9200 crankset. If Shimano (+ Pioneer) can't get it right.....
But the 4iiii is only left side AFAIK.
@@gplama Happy to ship you my spare 9200 crankset with 4iiii precision pro dual sided power meters. I'm running into the same issue with right side consistently running low.
Shane has infocrank sent you there new crank to review, I believe it's being release q4 this year.
No
What about the wahoo bolt + wahoo power meter ??? Good? Accurate?
My review of the Wahoo PowrLink is here: ruclips.net/video/E61ICDuBnBE/видео.html
Shane any comment on the current crop of Giant's power meters SRAM vs Shimano?
The Giant HALO? I’ll rule out any ‘Shimano power meter vs’ comparisons as it doesn’t warrant it until they have a trustworthy working power meter.
@@gplama Yep the Giant HALO any good?
It's close... but not something I'd be confident using. I'll loop back to it soon to see where things are at with their firmware.
Lama Dude cant you make a new, after some firmware updates, review off the garmin rs200 please. Even if it's just a text or a small vid 🙏
Oh no, my bike on order comes with this power meter. Well this might fix up my 40/60 % left/right power discrepancy on my Assioma duos 🤦♀️