If Favero produce a road pedal powermeter based on their new spindle technology with interchangeable road pedal bodies it will kill any need for this kind of fiasco. Necessity being the mother of invention n'all. Shimano have become pretty eccentric in recent years with weird behaviour and strange decisions.
The retailer did mention in an email I unfairly called them out in another video. I believe it's their responsibility to ensure what they're selling does what the manufacturer claims. That's standard business practice, I thought?
@@gplama Shane you could do the same with the Hammerhead Karoo2 - elevation probs in this instance + a few others but I'll let the HH community go on about that..some of which have been lasting yrs
@@gplama Well if it was justified he could have voiced his concerns fairly in the comment section. Wining like a snowflake is not looking good on him. Excellent work on your side. You keep them on their toes with product qualitiy ;).
I have 2 both on Gravel bikes (one that sees some serious mud/wet) and they have not skipped a beat. My old powertap2's on the road although still accurate are showing some minor play, unless something else comes along at similar price point it will soon be 3.
I'd like to see you be a bit more open and transparent with Shimano PM reviews / summaries. Like maybe have a clickbait thumbnail of you tossing it in a trashcan with GARBAGE in block capitals written across it.
More pedal choice. Although I’m not advocating for any ‘type’ of meter, I simply want to confirm this one works. They say it does. It didn’t. They released an update to ‘fix’ the accuracy problems. It didn’t.
So, they have well-functioning left-only power meter. Which by definition is not a reliable power meter. I've seen shocking inaccuracies throughout the years from left-only power meters. Those can be really good for 70-80% of the time but then go completely bonkers when L/R balance becomes uneven (which is natural, and almost guaranteed for periods of time). In 2024 I would never buy single sided power meter again.
not solved until know... and that problem was there from day one of the first generation, right? So - even if Shimano solve this one day, it doesn't help very much. The fact that they sell a product for years though they know it's total crap (the pro teams complained about that from day one!) makes them totally untrustworthy! ...had never expected such behavior form this brand...
Makes sense that the bigger bike brands supply their top bikes without powermeters if you go with the Shimano configuration, but have to problem speccing their SRAM configured bikes WITH powermeters. Both in Force and Red AXS alike.
Shimano, the company that has mastered all sorts of inteicate mechanical contrivances that have made the world a better place. Very often smashing the competition. Shimano, the company that can't seem to get anything with an electron in it to work to levels even close to the rest of the indusrty. At least they apply the same level of customer service as the local tax office when they screw it up.
Seems I had missed this video when it was released. I don't have the possibility to compare my powermeters properly like you but I have definitely seen improvement comparing my avg Watts from 8100P, P2max and my Kickr. And for me I can work with the 8100P on my "training (road) bike" (p2max is on my triathlon "race" bike). But I still observe two major problems: 1. The poweroutput almost never gets to 0. It stays at 1 W quite long. This messes with Average and NP. 2. Random reconnecting with my Wahoo: My power shown on my Wahoo freezes, then the RPM freezes and my Wahoo disconnects the devices, including my Polar strap, before reconnecting everything after (estimate) one minute. This is happening not as often as it did a year ago but it still happens about every second ride. It does not happen when I use my Wahoo with p2max or the Kickr. The second point is the reason I would not buy a Shimano Powermeter again. It is so annoying climbing up within your powerrange and then losing all your information on the dash randomly. From a technical side the P2max worked flawless but the shape of the Rotor cranks could be better for me. I have to use the wide Shimano pedals with it because I would otherwise touch the cranks with my heel. Seems I should have gotten a regular Shimano crank with Favero Assioma :D
It's funny that Chinese stuff is getting better. Shimano can't produce a reliable power meter, they spent millions on recalling cranks. Meanwhile, my l-twoo er9 groupset is cheap, works great, in the app i can choose 10-11-12 speed, i can micro adjust each gear, there's a function to prevent cross chaining in the last 2 cogs of the cassette, basically not only is it great, but it's actually got functions Shimano doesnt have...
Shimano must really, really, really, REALLY like the complexity, inherent power measuring problems and reliability issues that come with a spider integrated with a crank arm. Well, except for 12 speed MTB where Shimano mysteriously don't use that integrated design...
I bet the CEO's at Shimano can't look at a chainset without crying at this point. They will probably get the PM working just intime for the arms to start de-laminating 🤣. Joking aside it is concerning how they are handling/handled this and the other crank situation.
@@KoenMiseurRemind me again who, in fact, manufactures and supplies those cranks to 4iiii (etc.) in the first place? It seems to have slipped my mind. 🤔
Lama, you could make a scatter plot from the right hand side measurements. With the pedals on the x axis and the crank on the y axis. Each point representing one matching time measure. This provides insight in how the scaling factor could be applied to a wide range of wattage values.
Shimano has been sleeping on their laurels lately and messing up a few things. Fortunately they are not a monopoly anymore, and people are starting to realise.
the problem is not the scaling. they're just compensating for not having a design that allows strain gauges in the right places to give accurate data that could be scaled
Another excellent edition on the saga, hopefully not the last. Really enjoy the little refs to pop culture, although each time I hear 'math' instead of maths I die a little #notayank
I couldn't think of anything worse than having Shimano on a bike, these probs you're getting are similar to sram's handling of the Hammerhead imo, mismanagement of intrinsic products which are spoiling the experience
In a weird way, I'm getting there too. I now only have Shimano brakes on most of my families bikes. I'm considering a new bike and I'm not looking at the Shimano outfitted model at all. I also noticed that is the model with a discount. Maybe not a coincidence.
It's crazy. This is Shimano. They had so many issues with their bonded cranks. I think the hydro design is also a reason why they can't estimate the Watts right. They should invest to re-design the cranks.
Love the conclusion. Lama you are such a gentleman. You really give them the opportunity to make it right but who knows what is happening internally. Shimano is too successful everywhere that they need to sabotage them self or all competitors are going to die.
Is there any method to make a powermeter calibrated or measure it's accuracy?? Have a dura R9100 and a power2max powermeter and the 2 show different values. Betweeen there 2 theres is more than 30% difference.
great video, this is the 2nd or 3rd I've seen you present on this subject and it just dawned on me that you're indicating that this PM communicates with the front derailleur, is that right? It would seem crazy to design a PM that needs this to function so maybe I misunderstood the process. I'm pretty sure my SRAM/QUark doesn't talk to anything as it works with mechanical sets too. My Quark has aligned pretty well with my Wahoo dual sided PM pedals too, but I suspect that shimano riders don't want to mess up the aesthetics with a SRAM Quark on a Shimano groupset bike.
What I don’t understand is, what are the pro teams using? Shimano sponsored teams must be using this PM and surely they are not experiencing or accepting of such inaccurate data 🤷♂️
i greatly appreciate your reviews, i have 0 power meters on any bike. but i have ordered one, based on your review, i got the magene pes p505 to go on my as yet purchased endurance bike. i know which bike im getting just not sure when to pull the trigger on buying it, im still in winter even though its going to rain today and is well above freezing but we still have months of ice and snow to come
I have 3 different power meters. Garmin's pedals have been nothing but a problem (2 separate RMA's a few years ago). Favaro Assioma pedals have been wonderful! Finally, just got the dual sided 4iii on my newest bike. The 4iii seems to be running slightly higher values. Is this what you are seeing Shane?
Thank you for another great video dear Shane! I wonder what the heck is going on at Shimano. I mean they should have clever engineers who are capable of developing a proper power meter. Maybe they did and then the finance controller appeared and said 'no guys, way too expensive. Make it more simple, just half of it and some software dingelidang'. Wouldnt be the first company that has to make a certain percentage of profit no matter what. Since Shimano removed the DI2 licence from Hammerheads Karoo, they are going along a road i dont want to join. Really really sad, hope their top management wakes up before it is too late. Anyways, i love your passion and the way you explain these topics, very very fact based 👍
There is a chance the R8100-P unit I had was faulty (but only on the right). A very small chance... but let's say it was faulty. Shimano Australia had EVERY opportunity to entertain that as the problem and send a replacement, or suggest a return/replacement, or... hell... even reply to my request asking who's responsible in getting this resolved. They didn't. I absolutely love their Di2 groups on my road bike(s), and even the 11spd GRX mechanical on my gravel bike, so I'm in no way anti-Shimano. I'll keep at this.
@gplama fully understood, I was just speaking for myself. Would love to see any open and positive reaction from Shimano. I cross fingers that it is a faulty right side. I have to admit, that all my bikes are equipped with shimano components as I love the flawless functionality especially of their powertrain parts. I definitely will keep the bikes as they are and use them until there are no spare parts anymore available for 2x11 ☺️ as well as 1x12 on the mtbs. I just think, Shimano did and is doing some not so good decisions, maybe they feel so under pressure by SRAM... but that's nonsense, Shimano has a great history and in my opinion they are still the best series component manufacturer (even though a lot of people would call them soul free far east part maker), there is no need for them to rush into things. 🤞
@@2rismo Honely and professionally speaking - I have no idea why they didn't want to replace the right side of the chainset after seeing the results of my testing. Their total shitshow customer serivce has only exacerbated the issues they have. (Note: Issues THEY have. This is 100% on them.).
@@gplama my point was that they either know about the problem and are being deceptive (because subsequent testing would show the same result), or they're unaware of the of the problem and are incompetent. With the (seemingly arbitrary) 12% correction, I believe it's the former. All said as a Shimano guy with almost exclusively their Di2 product incl PMs.
When I want dual-sided, I'll stick w/ my Favero Assiomas. Will be getting a left-only PM to permanently keep on my Ultegra 8100 bike. Either the 4iiii Precision 3+ or Inpeak depending on when the size I need is back in stock.
I have a 4iiii left side crank power meter on my GRX equipped gravel bike. Works a treat, and they sell refurb units for a reasonable price. Probably going to pick up the new Assioma MX SPD pedals.
Interesting other thing, 36/50 chainrings, are 28% different in tooth count, half of that is 14% (still pretty close to you number). If you still had this is suggest changing the time for different sizes to see if that makes any difference.
Their commitment to their "jewel in the crown" (the DuraAce chainset) is too strong. It's what they showcase with the BIGGEST display posters at every trade show. It's a nice looking crank. Functionality wise - front gear changes with it are best in class. They just haven't been able to make it a descent power meter. It's a retrofit. Stages have solved this with the clamping style gauges on the right side of the 8100/9200 right crank. They either copy that or simply acquire SRM and call it a day.
@@gourami7 Pioneer unit still had issues with the right hand side. I had two Pioneer units in in my 2019 study with lower readings on the right. gplama.com/2019/06/29/shimano-crankset-power-meters/
@@gplama The problem I have with that is I'm still paying for this power meter to come with the bike. I find it difficult to knowingly pay for a measuring device that is inaccurate and outside of the companies own specifications. :/ Edit: So it looks like Shimano have a non power meter version for roughly $750 cheaper (FC-R8100). I'll be calling the bike shop to swap it out with one of those and refund me the difference. no point having two power meters on a bike.
Ergomo "pioneered" the concept of doubling to get both sides. Their bottom bracket measured the amount of twist in the axle is the right side was pushed down.
Consumers like me are starting to lose faith in the once mighty Shimano. First, we had the great breaking crankset debacle that Shimano denied for many years, until finally admitting to but doing nothing for those of us who had broken cranksets and were forced to replace them at our own expense. Then the never-endjng powermeter debacle. I suffered from both issues, but somehow kept the faith. Now I have a warranty claim on a DuraAce 9250 left shifter that was malfunctioning - this was sent to Shimano 4 weeks ago - so far no answer - how can they consider this to be acceptable customer service? What planet do they live on? Do they think people have spare left shifters they can use in the meantime?? Being without a working bike for more than a month is crazy. I can't think of another manufacturer of consumer goods who abuses their customers to this extent and still remains viable.
Not to mention how they screwed over Di2 owners who dared to buy a Hammerhead bike computer. I’ve said it before, and I stand by it that my next bike will not have Shimano components on it
That's just how Shimano is. Im a mechanic, and even when I order something new directly from Shimano it can take 3 weeks or so. (Directly ordering from Shimano is a last resort lol) in your specific case you have to wait for it to get there, them to get to it, test the product, and either repair yours or send a new one. They are very specific about warranty stuff. Keep in mind that Shimano is much larger than any brand in terms of Road by a long shot. They get a lot of returns/warranties which leads to long wait times. Wish that wasn't the case but that's what it is. Next upgrade I make to my own bike will either be Etap, or if the rumored TRP/Classified rumors are true then I'd go with the TRP/Classified combo
@d.b.cooper170 I think the problem is that we all just accept this BS from Shimano. Consumers are guilty and so are the bike industry - we all just let them do this again and again and just shrug our shoulders saying...."that's just Shimano for you". Well guess what, after 4 weeks they finally today sent my new DuraAce 9250 lever - only problem is they sent a right side lever, when it was a left lever that went to Shimano with a warranty fault! When does the broader bike industry say enough is enough and call time on Shimano, undisputedly nice equipment, but in the 2020's we should all expect our equipment to be backed by first world levels of service and warranty.
I wonder how Giant Power Pro V3 results compared to that one. I've made a test with Assiomas Duo and it came out quite ok. But would really appreciate some comprehensive review 😊.
Is there a true standard of watts? I understand consistency among several devices is generally considered to be accurate. Compared to something like HR, where a research standard exists. Where is power at?
Obviously there is. It is well defined as a force as 1 w = 1N * m/ s. Shane has tested power meters by hanging a known weight such as a gallon of water on a crank at a set distance and see what the power meter reads as the force measured. To get watts the power meter multiplies the force by the rotational speed. Somehow Shimano has something calibrated wrong on the right side and they are trying to fix it with an offset
@@bighammer3464 thanks for the response. I understand a formula exists, but does a devise that sets the standard exist? The Polar H10 is considered highly accurate because when compared with medical ECG results there is a high correlation. Is there an ECG/EKG for power meters? I’m guessing not since thy aren’t medical and no one’s life really depends on them. It’s more of a curious conversation question about the technology and what constitutes accurate.
@@niles_stone2742I’m sure every power meter company has a calibrated machine with which they measure their power meters from but for a consumer device, non that I know of. All power meters come with a certain tolerance +/- 2% or more but there are many variables to deal with. The forging of the metal in the crank, the accuracy of the straingage etc. take the car speedometer. Do we know that those things are accurate? We don’t since it’s a single point of data that we have. The tires in the car wear out yet the speedometer hasn’t been recalibrated to the new diameter. Being within 1-2% is plenty good enough. I’d say even 5% off is ok for most people. Without testing like Shane’s we wouldn’t know that this thing is giving us bad data. We’d just take it for what it is and ride on.
Can you tell us something about the Giant power pro PM which is also a dual side PM installed on a Shimano crank? Does it show similar discrepancies? Is it a problem of the shimano crank itself (geometry, material) or a problem with the power measurement?
How does Shimano not see this in their testing? It's patently obvious that power meters need to be accurate and precise, and yet Shimano doesn't seem to be able to recognize that or achieve that. Your numbers don't lie, and you're getting those numbers without the money that Shimano to buy more accurate and precise test equipment. What is Shimano's dysfunction?
That’s a good question. Even if my numbers were outliers for whatever reason, you’d think they’d do more than bury their heads in the sand. I can’t explain their product performance or their complete customer service incompetence.
Perhaps a bit off topic, but have you ever tested any of 4iiii’s Shimano-based power meters? If so, do they suffer from the same flaws as a lot of other brands’ Shimano models?
Yes. The left side is ok. The right side of their latest offering still gives me inconsistent data on the right. It looks to be very sensitive to calibration. 4iiii have the data and hopefully some answers soon.
The 8100/9200 power meters need ANT enabled on the Di2 groupset. When configured, the power meter pairs to that and monitors the position of the front derailleur. If this pairing isn’t configured…. Who knows… it’ll likely give the same unscaled data. Unless they’ve done some fudging with the overall numbers with this firmware too. It’s independent of any bike computer/head unit.
The only reason they can legally sell these is that they have never been challenged/questioned. The ACCC here in Australia would eat them alive if they could confirm what was on the box wasn't what was delivered. My report to them on this (as this is the 2nd crank I've purchased and had to return) was responded with a suggestion to take it to my state consumer body to get my money back. So they'll continue pushing these on consumers uncontested. 🤷🏻♂️
Shimano is having hard times. They lost 93 million on the Ultegra crank issue and total sales are down 30% over the previous year. This power meter issue does not instill confidence.
i wonder when people start to use ebike torque sensors for power measuring. many ebike torque sensors seems to be able to measure both torque and cadence which means it should also work for measuring power. just need some micro controller to combine that data and display it.
I have te Dura ace version of this power meter and mine is actually accurate now sinds the new firmware. I did a test with my trainer on trainer that they use for testing en they were within 2 wats of each other
was there another update since? I just bought the Ultegra one for a good price and am now considering to return it afer this video. but if the fixed it I could give it a try
But SRAM's power meter is a disposable item integrated into the chainrings. That's a design flaw, rather than Shimano's execution flaw. You can pick one of these two poisons, but I'll go with a different brand that works and isn't disposable. SRAM even ensured that the chainrings wear out faster by making them and the cassette to be too small for longevity or efficiency.
There is a critical difference elsewhere: Shimano's power meter is single-crank; SRAM's is double-sided (both cranks); this is a far more accurate representation of power balance and application than just one crank that is subject to many adverse forces that can distort the actual power reading. The comment about SRAM's chainrings wearing out are not borne out factually from actual road cycling feedback. Chainrings on any chainset can wear dramatically with incorrect chains specified (I know of a rider who said he could not afford an OEM SRAM chain and put on a BMX chain to match his frame colour!)
On another note, are you going to test the 4iiii version of this crankset powermeter, the Precision Plus Pro now that you're rolling in refund money? 😃
I have one here. It’s showing inconsistent data depending on when/where I perform the zero offset. 4iiii have the data and are hopefully looking into it.
The power is incorrect but it looks like it is consistently incorrect by the same amount without variation. Therefore it is still useful for measuring fitness improvements and your own performance. It is just no good for comparing your power with other cyclists or Zwift racing if you don't want to use your trainer's power meter for some reason.
Who could have guessed that v4.2.0 would be funky..
Would have never expected this level of incompetence from Shimano.
112%, that was really funny!
If Favero produce a road pedal powermeter based on their new spindle technology with interchangeable road pedal bodies it will kill any need for this kind of fiasco. Necessity being the mother of invention n'all. Shimano have become pretty eccentric in recent years with weird behaviour and strange decisions.
I can just imagine Shimano Australia internally reacting just like an episode of Utopia. 😂
Well you certainly gave them every opportunity to get it right. Let's hope they don't give you any grief with the return
The retailer did mention in an email I unfairly called them out in another video. I believe it's their responsibility to ensure what they're selling does what the manufacturer claims. That's standard business practice, I thought?
@@gplama Shane you could do the same with the Hammerhead Karoo2 - elevation probs in this instance + a few others but I'll let the HH community go on about that..some of which have been lasting yrs
@@gplama the product isn't doing what it claims to do. In my mind there's no justification for push back
@@gplama Well if it was justified he could have voiced his concerns fairly in the comment section. Wining like a snowflake is not looking good on him. Excellent work on your side. You keep them on their toes with product qualitiy ;).
112 is the new 100: inflation is everywhere!
Thanks Shane. Favero listens...nuff said.
magene p505 all the way,thanks for confirming!
Have mine and I love it.
just ordered off pandapodium for 289 euro ,unbeatable value 165s for TT@@whynotride327
This
I have 2 both on Gravel bikes (one that sees some serious mud/wet) and they have not skipped a beat. My old powertap2's on the road although still accurate are showing some minor play, unless something else comes along at similar price point it will soon be 3.
It continues to be a good day to be an Assioma Duo owner
why do you do this to yourself ? lol
I find this stuff really interesting. I suspect Shimano wished I didn't. 🤷🏻♂️🤣
i know you love power meters. why did Shimano do this.@@gplama
… don’t reply to Shane … wait for this RUclips review so we can see what’s wrong …
Shimano need to get a grip. I can't even install my brand new 105 di2 groupset as the e tube app is currently unavailable on android
I caught that news the other day. Bizzare.
Can you sideload the app from somewhere like apk mirror? Not ideal, but better than nothing.
Ive had big issues with the latest version so perhaps the app is broken.
1.12 thumbs up for your effort
And this is why I bought my first SRAM groupset ever in 2023. Used to be a Shimano man to the core. The Quarq power meter is cheap and accurate.
I'd like to see you be a bit more open and transparent with Shimano PM reviews / summaries. Like maybe have a clickbait thumbnail of you tossing it in a trashcan with GARBAGE in block capitals written across it.
The irony of Shimano backing a lot of RUclips channels that are known for that tactic isn’t lost on me.
@@gplama but not with paid advertisements :) they're always very fair with those.
Why use a crank-based per-power meter? Assioma Favero is the gold standard. Let Shimano dig their own grave.
More pedal choice. Although I’m not advocating for any ‘type’ of meter, I simply want to confirm this one works. They say it does. It didn’t. They released an update to ‘fix’ the accuracy problems. It didn’t.
Very sad you can't use the left crank data along. Still waiting for the fix
So, they have well-functioning left-only power meter. Which by definition is not a reliable power meter. I've seen shocking inaccuracies throughout the years from left-only power meters. Those can be really good for 70-80% of the time but then go completely bonkers when L/R balance becomes uneven (which is natural, and almost guaranteed for periods of time). In 2024 I would never buy single sided power meter again.
The one good thing to come out of this sh*tshow of a product is Shane's coverage of it, top tier entertainment.
hahah! I'm happy to hear people appreciate it. I was concerned people would be tired of me complaining about this power meter! 🤣
not solved until know... and that problem was there from day one of the first generation, right? So - even if Shimano solve this one day, it doesn't help very much. The fact that they sell a product for years though they know it's total crap (the pro teams complained about that from day one!) makes them totally untrustworthy! ...had never expected such behavior form this brand...
Neither did I. Notice how few reviews of this meter are published too? I know why.
It's just 1000+ eur, who cares...
But if seriously... Thats just unacceptable.
Makes sense that the bigger bike brands supply their top bikes without powermeters if you go with the Shimano configuration, but have to problem speccing their SRAM configured bikes WITH powermeters. Both in Force and Red AXS alike.
Hahaha that last joke, 112% if riding in the big ring 😂😂😂
Shimano, the company that has mastered all sorts of inteicate mechanical contrivances that have made the world a better place. Very often smashing the competition. Shimano, the company that can't seem to get anything with an electron in it to work to levels even close to the rest of the indusrty. At least they apply the same level of customer service as the local tax office when they screw it up.
100%. And gifted SRAM market share in the process.
Seems I had missed this video when it was released.
I don't have the possibility to compare my powermeters properly like you but I have definitely seen improvement comparing my avg Watts from 8100P, P2max and my Kickr.
And for me I can work with the 8100P on my "training (road) bike" (p2max is on my triathlon "race" bike).
But I still observe two major problems:
1. The poweroutput almost never gets to 0. It stays at 1 W quite long. This messes with Average and NP.
2. Random reconnecting with my Wahoo:
My power shown on my Wahoo freezes, then the RPM freezes and my Wahoo disconnects the devices, including my Polar strap, before reconnecting everything after (estimate) one minute. This is happening not as often as it did a year ago but it still happens about every second ride. It does not happen when I use my Wahoo with p2max or the Kickr.
The second point is the reason I would not buy a Shimano Powermeter again. It is so annoying climbing up within your powerrange and then losing all your information on the dash randomly.
From a technical side the P2max worked flawless but the shape of the Rotor cranks could be better for me. I have to use the wide Shimano pedals with it because I would otherwise touch the cranks with my heel.
Seems I should have gotten a regular Shimano crank with Favero Assioma :D
It seems shimano doesn't like dat-nasty-top-1%-riches. only the DA and UT has the recall problem.
It's funny that Chinese stuff is getting better. Shimano can't produce a reliable power meter, they spent millions on recalling cranks. Meanwhile, my l-twoo er9 groupset is cheap, works great, in the app i can choose 10-11-12 speed, i can micro adjust each gear, there's a function to prevent cross chaining in the last 2 cogs of the cassette, basically not only is it great, but it's actually got functions Shimano doesnt have...
Shimano must really, really, really, REALLY like the complexity, inherent power measuring problems and reliability issues that come with a spider integrated with a crank arm. Well, except for 12 speed MTB where Shimano mysteriously don't use that integrated design...
I bet the CEO's at Shimano can't look at a chainset without crying at this point. They will probably get the PM working just intime for the arms to start de-laminating 🤣.
Joking aside it is concerning how they are handling/handled this and the other crank situation.
Can we launch a class action for everyone who has this model power meter?
Shimano should just make an affordable LEFT CRANK power meter. Looks like the accuracy is already there.
Problem is that 4iiii is already doing that.
@@KoenMiseurRemind me again who, in fact, manufactures and supplies those cranks to 4iiii (etc.) in the first place? It seems to have slipped my mind. 🤔
I have come to the conclusion that inspite of being the would's largest cycling manufacturing co., the after market and warranty service is the pits.
Bad luck for all the pro teams sponsored by Shimano that are stuck riding this power meter
This is crazy.... Shimano does so well on some things, others.... ugh.
Lama, you could make a scatter plot from the right hand side measurements. With the pedals on the x axis and the crank on the y axis. Each point representing one matching time measure. This provides insight in how the scaling factor could be applied to a wide range of wattage values.
Shimano has been sleeping on their laurels lately and messing up a few things. Fortunately they are not a monopoly anymore, and people are starting to realise.
the problem is not the scaling. they're just compensating for not having a design that allows strain gauges in the right places to give accurate data that could be scaled
It’d be great to see them adopt the Stages 8100/9200 style clamping gauges on the right side. Those test very well.
Another excellent edition on the saga, hopefully not the last. Really enjoy the little refs to pop culture, although each time I hear 'math' instead of maths I die a little #notayank
Could you review the Rotor 2INPower SL please Shane ;)
It’s here for a review! I just have to unbox and install it.
@@gplama wicked, I just got it myself and need your opinion
I couldn't think of anything worse than having Shimano on a bike, these probs you're getting are similar to sram's handling of the Hammerhead imo, mismanagement of intrinsic products which are spoiling the experience
In a weird way, I'm getting there too. I now only have Shimano brakes on most of my families bikes. I'm considering a new bike and I'm not looking at the Shimano outfitted model at all. I also noticed that is the model with a discount. Maybe not a coincidence.
It's crazy. This is Shimano. They had so many issues with their bonded cranks. I think the hydro design is also a reason why they can't estimate the Watts right. They should invest to re-design the cranks.
Stages and 4iii units are accurate on that crank.
Love the conclusion. Lama you are such a gentleman. You really give them the opportunity to make it right but who knows what is happening internally. Shimano is too successful everywhere that they need to sabotage them self or all competitors are going to die.
I suspect their actions are embarrassing for a LOT of good people who work there. My door remains open to them to share data/test protocols/etc.
Is there any method to make a powermeter calibrated or measure it's accuracy?? Have a dura R9100 and a power2max powermeter and the 2 show different values. Betweeen there 2 theres is more than 30% difference.
No. If they could get the R9100-P working they'd have done it already and you wouldn't have a problem.
great video, this is the 2nd or 3rd I've seen you present on this subject and it just dawned on me that you're indicating that this PM communicates with the front derailleur, is that right? It would seem crazy to design a PM that needs this to function so maybe I misunderstood the process. I'm pretty sure my SRAM/QUark doesn't talk to anything as it works with mechanical sets too. My Quark has aligned pretty well with my Wahoo dual sided PM pedals too, but I suspect that shimano riders don't want to mess up the aesthetics with a SRAM Quark on a Shimano groupset bike.
This is the only power meter I know of that does this. It’s very much a bodge/hack that should never be required.
What I don’t understand is, what are the pro teams using? Shimano sponsored teams must be using this PM and surely they are not experiencing or accepting of such inaccurate data 🤷♂️
Pro cycling exists through paid sponsorships. That the answer.
Just get a magene pe5 power meter 😂
i greatly appreciate your reviews,
i have 0 power meters on any bike. but i have ordered one, based on your review, i got the magene pes p505 to go on my as yet purchased endurance bike. i know which bike im getting just not sure when to pull the trigger on buying it, im still in winter even though its going to rain today and is well above freezing but we still have months of ice and snow to come
The P505 was a surprise performer. So was the P505 Base.
Can confirm. Works great.
Thanks shimano!😂
So if i don't have a di2 setup for the power meter to use to "know" where the chain is this is useless? Wtf Shimano.
Their wording is something along the lines of this making the power meter ‘more accurate’. 😅
I bought the stages r8000 two weeks ago and its causing me nightmares...
The R8100 from Stages tested well.
I have 3 different power meters. Garmin's pedals have been nothing but a problem (2 separate RMA's a few years ago). Favaro Assioma pedals have been wonderful! Finally, just got the dual sided 4iii on my newest bike. The 4iii seems to be running slightly higher values. Is this what you are seeing Shane?
Thank you for another great video dear Shane! I wonder what the heck is going on at Shimano. I mean they should have clever engineers who are capable of developing a proper power meter. Maybe they did and then the finance controller appeared and said 'no guys, way too expensive. Make it more simple, just half of it and some software dingelidang'. Wouldnt be the first company that has to make a certain percentage of profit no matter what. Since Shimano removed the DI2 licence from Hammerheads Karoo, they are going along a road i dont want to join. Really really sad, hope their top management wakes up before it is too late. Anyways, i love your passion and the way you explain these topics, very very fact based 👍
There is a chance the R8100-P unit I had was faulty (but only on the right). A very small chance... but let's say it was faulty. Shimano Australia had EVERY opportunity to entertain that as the problem and send a replacement, or suggest a return/replacement, or... hell... even reply to my request asking who's responsible in getting this resolved. They didn't.
I absolutely love their Di2 groups on my road bike(s), and even the 11spd GRX mechanical on my gravel bike, so I'm in no way anti-Shimano.
I'll keep at this.
@gplama fully understood, I was just speaking for myself. Would love to see any open and positive reaction from Shimano. I cross fingers that it is a faulty right side.
I have to admit, that all my bikes are equipped with shimano components as I love the flawless functionality especially of their powertrain parts. I definitely will keep the bikes as they are and use them until there are no spare parts anymore available for 2x11 ☺️ as well as 1x12 on the mtbs. I just think, Shimano did and is doing some not so good decisions, maybe they feel so under pressure by SRAM... but that's nonsense, Shimano has a great history and in my opinion they are still the best series component manufacturer (even though a lot of people would call them soul free far east part maker), there is no need for them to rush into things. 🤞
@@gplama they didn't want to send you a replacement crankset to test and we all know why.
@@2rismo Honely and professionally speaking - I have no idea why they didn't want to replace the right side of the chainset after seeing the results of my testing. Their total shitshow customer serivce has only exacerbated the issues they have. (Note: Issues THEY have. This is 100% on them.).
@@gplama my point was that they either know about the problem and are being deceptive (because subsequent testing would show the same result), or they're unaware of the of the problem and are incompetent.
With the (seemingly arbitrary) 12% correction, I believe it's the former. All said as a Shimano guy with almost exclusively their Di2 product incl PMs.
When I want dual-sided, I'll stick w/ my Favero Assiomas. Will be getting a left-only PM to permanently keep on my Ultegra 8100 bike. Either the 4iiii Precision 3+ or Inpeak depending on when the size I need is back in stock.
I have a 4iiii left side crank power meter on my GRX equipped gravel bike. Works a treat, and they sell refurb units for a reasonable price. Probably going to pick up the new Assioma MX SPD pedals.
Interesting other thing, 36/50 chainrings, are 28% different in tooth count, half of that is 14% (still pretty close to you number). If you still had this is suggest changing the time for different sizes to see if that makes any difference.
With so many companies making great power meters, it blows my mind that a company with Shimanos resources can't figure out how to get it done.
Their commitment to their "jewel in the crown" (the DuraAce chainset) is too strong. It's what they showcase with the BIGGEST display posters at every trade show. It's a nice looking crank. Functionality wise - front gear changes with it are best in class. They just haven't been able to make it a descent power meter. It's a retrofit. Stages have solved this with the clamping style gauges on the right side of the 8100/9200 right crank. They either copy that or simply acquire SRM and call it a day.
@@gplamaDidn't they accquire Pioneer PM years ago ? Why not use that tech ?
@@gourami7that's actually what they are using here. 😮
@@gourami7 Pioneer unit still had issues with the right hand side. I had two Pioneer units in in my 2019 study with lower readings on the right. gplama.com/2019/06/29/shimano-crankset-power-meters/
I've ordered a new bike that comes with this power meter. I'll be cancelling the order and shopping for something else unfortunately.
Keep the bike! Just seek an alternative meter.
@@gplama The problem I have with that is I'm still paying for this power meter to come with the bike. I find it difficult to knowingly pay for a measuring device that is inaccurate and outside of the companies own specifications. :/
Edit: So it looks like Shimano have a non power meter version for roughly $750 cheaper (FC-R8100). I'll be calling the bike shop to swap it out with one of those and refund me the difference. no point having two power meters on a bike.
Ergomo "pioneered" the concept of doubling to get both sides. Their bottom bracket measured the amount of twist in the axle is the right side was pushed down.
Consumers like me are starting to lose faith in the once mighty Shimano. First, we had the great breaking crankset debacle that Shimano denied for many years, until finally admitting to but doing nothing for those of us who had broken cranksets and were forced to replace them at our own expense. Then the never-endjng powermeter debacle. I suffered from both issues, but somehow kept the faith.
Now I have a warranty claim on a DuraAce 9250 left shifter that was malfunctioning - this was sent to Shimano 4 weeks ago - so far no answer - how can they consider this to be acceptable customer service? What planet do they live on? Do they think people have spare left shifters they can use in the meantime?? Being without a working bike for more than a month is crazy.
I can't think of another manufacturer of consumer goods who abuses their customers to this extent and still remains viable.
Not to mention how they screwed over Di2 owners who dared to buy a Hammerhead bike computer. I’ve said it before, and I stand by it that my next bike will not have Shimano components on it
That's just how Shimano is. Im a mechanic, and even when I order something new directly from Shimano it can take 3 weeks or so. (Directly ordering from Shimano is a last resort lol) in your specific case you have to wait for it to get there, them to get to it, test the product, and either repair yours or send a new one. They are very specific about warranty stuff. Keep in mind that Shimano is much larger than any brand in terms of Road by a long shot. They get a lot of returns/warranties which leads to long wait times. Wish that wasn't the case but that's what it is.
Next upgrade I make to my own bike will either be Etap, or if the rumored TRP/Classified rumors are true then I'd go with the TRP/Classified combo
@d.b.cooper170 I think the problem is that we all just accept this BS from Shimano. Consumers are guilty and so are the bike industry - we all just let them do this again and again and just shrug our shoulders saying...."that's just Shimano for you".
Well guess what, after 4 weeks they finally today sent my new DuraAce 9250 lever - only problem is they sent a right side lever, when it was a left lever that went to Shimano with a warranty fault!
When does the broader bike industry say enough is enough and call time on Shimano, undisputedly nice equipment, but in the 2020's we should all expect our equipment to be backed by first world levels of service and warranty.
I wonder how Giant Power Pro V3 results compared to that one. I've made a test with Assiomas Duo and it came out quite ok. But would really appreciate some comprehensive review 😊.
I’ll have to get a hold of one. The previous models had issues with the right side.
@@gplama I know, that's why I'm curious if the one i have is already good enough 😅
Is there a true standard of watts? I understand consistency among several devices is generally considered to be accurate. Compared to something like HR, where a research standard exists. Where is power at?
Obviously there is. It is well defined as a force as 1 w = 1N * m/ s. Shane has tested power meters by hanging a known weight such as a gallon of water on a crank at a set distance and see what the power meter reads as the force measured. To get watts the power meter multiplies the force by the rotational speed. Somehow Shimano has something calibrated wrong on the right side and they are trying to fix it with an offset
@@bighammer3464 thanks for the response. I understand a formula exists, but does a devise that sets the standard exist? The Polar H10 is considered highly accurate because when compared with medical ECG results there is a high correlation. Is there an ECG/EKG for power meters? I’m guessing not since thy aren’t medical and no one’s life really depends on them. It’s more of a curious conversation question about the technology and what constitutes accurate.
@@niles_stone2742I’m sure every power meter company has a calibrated machine with which they measure their power meters from but for a consumer device, non that I know of. All power meters come with a certain tolerance +/- 2% or more but there are many variables to deal with. The forging of the metal in the crank, the accuracy of the straingage etc. take the car speedometer. Do we know that those things are accurate? We don’t since it’s a single point of data that we have. The tires in the car wear out yet the speedometer hasn’t been recalibrated to the new diameter. Being within 1-2% is plenty good enough. I’d say even 5% off is ok for most people. Without testing like Shane’s we wouldn’t know that this thing is giving us bad data. We’d just take it for what it is and ride on.
This is practically SRAM modus operandi. Releasing products before they have been properly tested. Common Shimano don't be like SRAM.
Can you tell us something about the Giant power pro PM which is also a dual side PM installed on a Shimano crank? Does it show similar discrepancies? Is it a problem of the shimano crank itself (geometry, material) or a problem with the power measurement?
I tested the MY20 models based on the R8000 crank (11spd). It wasn't great on the right. ruclips.net/video/BSZmG117xa0/видео.html
@@gplamaso it is possible that it is not a measuring but a crank hardware material or construction problem?
Dig into all the details (and Keith Wakeham's video) here: gplama.com/2019/06/29/shimano-crankset-power-meters/
@@gplamaThank you. Speed reading your article gives me relieve that a slightly off power reading is nothing to worry about in my case.
So firmware 420 was a little hazy...
Snoop Dogg approved firmware 😶🌫️
@@gplamaso if it gets shipped with an older firmware. better not update right? did previous firmwares work fine?
gods work
I believe he rides Campagnolo. 😇
How does Shimano not see this in their testing? It's patently obvious that power meters need to be accurate and precise, and yet Shimano doesn't seem to be able to recognize that or achieve that. Your numbers don't lie, and you're getting those numbers without the money that Shimano to buy more accurate and precise test equipment. What is Shimano's dysfunction?
That’s a good question. Even if my numbers were outliers for whatever reason, you’d think they’d do more than bury their heads in the sand. I can’t explain their product performance or their complete customer service incompetence.
Surely this is a stiffness issue. Can Shimano not make a stiff crank? Things like this is why I run SRAM gears and custom cranks and power2max meters.
It's got to be an issue with the PM itself. The stages PM works perfectly fine with those cranks.
Perhaps a bit off topic, but have you ever tested any of 4iiii’s Shimano-based power meters? If so, do they suffer from the same flaws as a lot of other brands’ Shimano models?
Yes. The left side is ok. The right side of their latest offering still gives me inconsistent data on the right. It looks to be very sensitive to calibration. 4iiii have the data and hopefully some answers soon.
Is it possible to display just the power measured by the left side power meter, perhaps multiplied by 2, on a Garmin device?
No
What would happen if your not connected via Bluetooth and the computer does not know what gear your in. Ie it then would not scale up the data?
The 8100/9200 power meters need ANT enabled on the Di2 groupset. When configured, the power meter pairs to that and monitors the position of the front derailleur. If this pairing isn’t configured…. Who knows… it’ll likely give the same unscaled data. Unless they’ve done some fudging with the overall numbers with this firmware too.
It’s independent of any bike computer/head unit.
0:18 llama: "I wash my hands of you" 🙂.
How can they let a product go out that isn't fit for purpose? Shocking
The only reason they can legally sell these is that they have never been challenged/questioned. The ACCC here in Australia would eat them alive if they could confirm what was on the box wasn't what was delivered. My report to them on this (as this is the 2nd crank I've purchased and had to return) was responded with a suggestion to take it to my state consumer body to get my money back. So they'll continue pushing these on consumers uncontested. 🤷🏻♂️
Do you know if the latest Giant Power Pro V3 based on the 8100 Shimano crankset is accurate or does it still have the same problem?
Unknown until tested.
Would love to see it happen! Seems some manufacturers can get the design right, so hopefully Giant have!
Shimano is having hard times. They lost 93 million on the Ultegra crank issue and total sales are down 30% over the previous year. This power meter issue does not instill confidence.
18 million is the cost of the crank program, not 93 million.
That's what I read online.
You mean people still by 2x cranks?
And they will
@gplama you legend!
i wonder when people start to use ebike torque sensors for power measuring. many ebike torque sensors seems to be able to measure both torque and cadence which means it should also work for measuring power. just need some micro controller to combine that data and display it.
Like that could be so much cheaper. 100€ for sensor and like Arduino for 20-30€ and some small battery.
That's already how power meters work. They measure torque and they measure cadence. Power is torque * cadence.
I have te Dura ace version of this power meter and mine is actually accurate now sinds the new firmware. I did a test with my trainer on trainer that they use for testing en they were within 2 wats of each other
That’s great. It’s a pity Shimano didn’t care to ensure the (now two) meters I purchased were as accurate as what you’re claiming.
was there another update since? I just bought the Ultegra one for a good price and am now considering to return it afer this video. but if the fixed it I could give it a try
Can you return by shipping or you have to go instore?
Shipped it back.
my fw says fw 4.2.1 - what now?
Shimano website has the details.
Go SRAM AXS! ☺
But SRAM's power meter is a disposable item integrated into the chainrings. That's a design flaw, rather than Shimano's execution flaw. You can pick one of these two poisons, but I'll go with a different brand that works and isn't disposable. SRAM even ensured that the chainrings wear out faster by making them and the cassette to be too small for longevity or efficiency.
There is a critical difference elsewhere: Shimano's power meter is single-crank; SRAM's is double-sided (both cranks); this is a far more accurate representation of power balance and application than just one crank that is subject to many adverse forces that can distort the actual power reading. The comment about SRAM's chainrings wearing out are not borne out factually from actual road cycling feedback. Chainrings on any chainset can wear dramatically with incorrect chains specified (I know of a rider who said he could not afford an OEM SRAM chain and put on a BMX chain to match his frame colour!)
1:52 clearly llama you're just not using it correctly 😀😄😃... just kidding 🥰.
Left is enough.
On another note, are you going to test the 4iiii version of this crankset powermeter, the Precision Plus Pro now that you're rolling in refund money? 😃
I have one here. It’s showing inconsistent data depending on when/where I perform the zero offset. 4iiii have the data and are hopefully looking into it.
left hand side fine and right hand side weird? maybe it's the same reason why the cranks are cracking, the glue bonding.
The power is incorrect but it looks like it is consistently incorrect by the same amount without variation. Therefore it is still useful for measuring fitness improvements and your own performance. It is just no good for comparing your power with other cyclists or Zwift racing if you don't want to use your trainer's power meter for some reason.
You just have to analyze your power numbers keeping in mind which chainring you used at any time. No problem.
How did we survive before power meters? Been riding 50 years without one..
And we were on foot before cars. This isn't really the discussion I'm having though.