The mistake Greville made was he had him so far back off a slow early pace, you can see how difficult it was for any other horse to improve their position, the field positions remained pretty static. Amazing to think he nearly made it as Shahrastani on his day was no slouch, he was very impressive in the Irish Derby. One of the most famous Derbies of them all and the Brave not getting there made it more so.
I was standing by the 2 furlong marker... The Brave went past like a 5 furlong sprinter... Will forever be the best horse not to win the Derby... But winner of the greatest Arc to date
No horse in history could of won from DB position or even got close, DB in full flight was a sight to behold when he got into top gear. He will always be the horse with the extra gear.
@Stephen Small golden fleece was very fast, do you know how many lengths GF was behind? I estimate DB was 15 lengths behind and ran the penultimate furlong in 10.2 seconds. If GF was further back and ran furlong splits as fast then I would agree with you.
Even allowing for the fact that DB's connections thought he might not stay the distance, and therefore needed to be held up, as Brough Scott said he was given way too much to do. We all know that hindsights a wonderful thing , and maybe he didn't truly handle Epsom, but really , how the hell was the horse going to win from the position Starkey had him in, turning into the straight? Giving the winner effectively 10 lengths and only losing by a closing half length, proves the Brave stayed every yard of the Derby with its up hill finish and only his sheer class and speed could account for this. I'm afraid as has been widely said and is now well documented,, Starkey rode a terrible race for an experienced jockey, Sharistani was a good horse on his day, but let's not forget he was Subsequently beaten twice by DB most notably in the Arc .
It was a hard ask, but others have manage it, I just think he lacked the instant acceleration, it's always easy when you see a horse gaining at the line only to be beaten a narrow margin to think if only they would have made their move sooner.
This is great footage, dancing brave didn't handle tattenham corner at all when Grenville tried to make ground but he should have been ridden more positively
Worth pointing out that Shahrastani was rated 135 by Timeform: making him the equal of Nashwan. Starkey's exaggerated waiting tactics would have got DB home in 8 out of ten Derbies and we'd all be applauding his coolness in winning on a doubtful stayer.
I appreciate that these races occurred after Brough Scott's comments but the 1994, 1995 and 2006 Derbies (probably others as well) were won from that far back. Dancing Brave didn't pick up for a furlong which cost him the race. I never see people commenting that Eddery's ride on him in the Arc was identical to Starkey's ride in the Derby. It's just that Dancing Brave handled the track better.
Just watched the 1994 race and Erhaab is nowhere near as far back coming out of Tattenham Corner. Jockey Carson brought him round that bend on the rails whereas Starkey (on Dancing Brave) came around the field - bonkers. Lammtara in 1995 was a bit further back but also was on the rails and only had 8 horses (of the 15 runners) in front of him leaving Tattenham Corner. Sir Percy in 2006 also only had 8 in front of him leaving Tattenham Corner and came thru the field which was tricky - probably would've won well with a clear run. What you have to consider is the rising ground in the final furlong which "stops" the non-stayers and makes those horses which do have the stamina for the trip to look very quick in the final furlong. Shahrastani in 1986 wasn't stopping and stayed every yard of the Derby trip. The Epsom track did have some effect on the result, you're right there. Due to the camber across the track, coming wide is not a great idea as horses all tend to drift onto the far rail and jockeys are trying to keep horses on a straight line. Watching Erhaab reminded me what a good jockey Carson was.
+Dave Besag The difference is Bering was his biggest danger in the Arc' and Eddery was right behind him the entire race, In the Derby Starkey gave his biggest challenger a 10L head start with 3 furlongs to run.
Stop talking out of your ass bruz Starkey was tactical horse dunce he had dancing brave wrong position in de race brave was trapped on in side of race with 3.furlongs to go should be on wide out side piggot or ederry dancing brave wood have won de triple crown big fucking time
You are right to a point Michael. Epsom didn't do The Brave any favours but the jockey who was a legend by the way made a misjudgement due to the horse being a doubtful stayer. In future races however DB proved he was superior to Sharastani and the rest winning one of the strongest Arc de Triomphe's of all time. Not sure what your reference to Sharastani winning an Irish Derby by lengths counts for, he beat a horse Bonhomie who ended up running over 2 miles and further, so that was a poor race.
Shahrastani never got the credit he deserved, regardless of what people think of Grevile Starkeys ride of Dancing Brave, Walter Swinburne gave Shahrastani a superb ride and Walter was fortunate he had a decent horse under him when could hold his position well and quicken when Swinburne wanted is mount to do so.
I would rate Sharastani and Triptych about even. Both very good Horses but unfortunate to have DB to contend with. Triptych had three good seasons but couldn't quite win the big races
Mr.Starkey's ride on Dancing Brave was easily the worst Classic ride I've seen in the last 30 years, possibly the worst EVER. He's out the back the whole way and almost last at Tattenham Corner. Never saw Piggott have a horse in that position in a Derby in my life. This ride is so bad it will still be getting talked about in another 25 years, that's how BAD it was.
DB was one of the greats, his Arc win will take some beating as a spectacle...but for what it's worth I think Nijinsky was the daddy...awesome! ....his son Golden Fleece also won the Derby easily (1982) coming from miles back (DB style) and could been a real superstar in his own right.......tragic loss
If that was the franky detori or late pat eddery and great Lester piggot dancing brave wood have walk true sharistani like knife true butter./. That was de fastest 2 furlong sprint I've seen ina Epsom Derby greville was not right Jocky for him at all
Rather than calling starkey a “Cnut “ etc perhaps it’s better to have listened to hardwood after the race a man better judged than anyone alive on what suited DB and happened..: He had to be held up they didn’t think he would suit or stay Epsom track and he was awful on left handed tracks ....starkey was told to hold up the issue with the race its was so slow pace it began to bunch then concertina out with 5/6F left and that cost him .. he was in the position told to be it was more bad racing luck and Epsom he didn’t handle ...that’s the exact Harwood quotes ... Starkey Rode him twice after also
I think the issue is holding him up for the last 2 furlongs from a midfield position compared to holding him up at the back. Maybe they assumed he wasn’t going to be dead last and the widest runner
I wonder what the time was for his last furlong,,,he made a lot of ground up,,,,should have won it easy,,he must have had 10L or more to make up on sharastani
Watch dancing brave turn into the straight, it took a full furlong to get him balanced. Also the slow early pace meant the field was packed together. None of this helped
Indeed and Guy Harwood didn`t help matters, as it was Guy Harwood before the race, who appeared to put the doubt in Greville`s and everyone`s else`s mind as to whether or not Dancing Brave would make 12 furlongs...It was only after the Derby that Dancing Brave demonstrated that he truly was the best between 8 and 12 furlongs in 1986
Commentary should have been " But here, powering down the centre of the track comes the red hot favourite Dancing Brave, but oh so much to do. He's got a furlong and a half in which to do it". Would have sounded much better. Just saying.
Shahrastani won the Irish derby by 8 lengths! It was the king George dancing brave beat a off form shahrastani. He didn't handle the corner well but a jockey has to take that into consideration when racing wide
Dancing brave stayed 12 furlongs but only just ! Shahrastani run poorly in the king George and to a lesser degree in the arc, but dancing brave would have had a hard race in the Irish derby if he contended that race in my opinion
Absolutely Spot on,Shahrastani never got the credit he deserved, sadly he lost his form after the Irish Derby and couldn't regain it at that level again.
Shahrastani trebled the distance he beat mashkour and more so with other Epsom derby contenders in the Irish derby. I think dancing brave would have struggled to best shahrastani in the Irish Derby, but would probably have done so by a short margin
I was there because I wanted the brave to win, I had £50 to put on him but my mate said no u never know he could run a bad race ! so I put 25 instead ! it was not the horse that ran a bad race, it Grenville Grr ! made up for it in the next two races though lol xx Dancing brave best horse period , best filly Pebbles in my opinion , I happen to follow those two at the time and made some money ! weeee! alas that was a bloody long time ago ! not won since ! lol
I was there too with about 6 friends stood on a bench on the grandstand lawn that collapsed as we jumped up and down cheering Dancing Brave. We'd lumped on after Starkey was quoted as saying the horse was a "monster" on the gallops. Can't remember now but think we were on at 9/4.
I make you right. I once spoke with James Delahooke who bought DB. He said he had seen Secretariat, Brigadier Gerard etc and that DB had beaten better horses. he also said he would have backed him to win a July Cup. As for Pebbles - great great filly - maybe the best ?
Damn. I thought if I watched it one more time Dancing Brave might finally get to win.
Still can’t get over it…….even after all these years …..
Dancing Brave was one amazing animal, fact he got so close from so far back and most of all off that slow pace was miraculous
The mistake Greville made was he had him so far back off a slow early pace, you can see how difficult it was for any other horse to improve their position, the field positions remained pretty static. Amazing to think he nearly made it as Shahrastani on his day was no slouch, he was very impressive in the Irish Derby. One of the most famous Derbies of them all and the Brave not getting there made it more so.
I was standing by the 2 furlong marker... The Brave went past like a 5 furlong sprinter... Will forever be the best horse not to win the Derby... But winner of the greatest Arc to date
No horse in history could of won from DB position or even got close, DB in full flight was a sight to behold when he got into top gear. He will always be the horse with the extra gear.
@Stephen Small golden fleece was very fast, do you know how many lengths GF was behind? I estimate DB was 15 lengths behind and ran the penultimate furlong in 10.2 seconds. If GF was further back and ran furlong splits as fast then I would agree with you.
I was there.
Starkey cooked Dancing Braves chance.
Should have wot it easy.
Jockey lost it.
The Arc confirmed that in incredible style.
thats racing.
Even allowing for the fact that DB's connections thought he might not stay the distance, and therefore needed to be held up, as Brough Scott said he was given way too much to do.
We all know that hindsights a wonderful thing , and maybe he didn't truly handle Epsom, but really , how the hell was the horse going to win from the position Starkey had him in, turning into the straight? Giving the winner effectively 10 lengths and only losing by a closing half length, proves the Brave stayed every yard of the Derby with its up hill finish and only his sheer class and speed could account for this.
I'm afraid as has been widely said and is now well documented,, Starkey rode a terrible race for an experienced jockey, Sharistani was a good horse on his day, but let's not forget he was Subsequently beaten twice by DB most notably in the Arc .
It was a hard ask, but others have manage it, I just think he lacked the instant acceleration, it's always easy when you see a horse gaining at the line only to be beaten a narrow margin to think if only they would have made their move sooner.
Great summary from Brough Scott. So glad he is back on tv.
Not seen this in years. I always recalled it as a closer finish.
This is great footage, dancing brave didn't handle tattenham corner at all when Grenville tried to make ground but he should have been ridden more positively
Greville.
Worth pointing out that Shahrastani was rated 135 by Timeform: making him the equal of Nashwan. Starkey's exaggerated waiting tactics would have got DB home in 8 out of ten Derbies and we'd all be applauding his coolness in winning on a doubtful stayer.
I appreciate that these races occurred after Brough Scott's comments but the 1994, 1995 and 2006 Derbies (probably others as well) were won from that far back. Dancing Brave didn't pick up for a furlong which cost him the race. I never see people commenting that Eddery's ride on him in the Arc was identical to Starkey's ride in the Derby. It's just that Dancing Brave handled the track better.
Just watched the 1994 race and Erhaab is nowhere near as far back coming out of Tattenham Corner. Jockey Carson brought him round that bend on the rails whereas Starkey (on Dancing Brave) came around the field - bonkers.
Lammtara in 1995 was a bit further back but also was on the rails and only had 8 horses (of the 15 runners) in front of him leaving Tattenham Corner.
Sir Percy in 2006 also only had 8 in front of him leaving Tattenham Corner and came thru the field which was tricky - probably would've won well with a clear run.
What you have to consider is the rising ground in the final furlong which "stops" the non-stayers and makes those horses which do have the stamina for the trip to look very quick in the final furlong. Shahrastani in 1986 wasn't stopping and stayed every yard of the Derby trip.
The Epsom track did have some effect on the result, you're right there. Due to the camber across the track, coming wide is not a great idea as horses all tend to drift onto the far rail and jockeys are trying to keep horses on a straight line.
Watching Erhaab reminded me what a good jockey Carson was.
+Dave Besag The difference is Bering was his biggest danger in the Arc' and Eddery was right behind him the entire race, In the Derby Starkey gave his biggest challenger a 10L head start with 3 furlongs to run.
Dave Besag well said dave
@@stevenfinch7086 It wasn't well said, he is wrong 💯
Stop talking out of your ass bruz Starkey was tactical horse dunce he had dancing brave wrong position in de race brave was trapped on in side of race with 3.furlongs to go should be on wide out side piggot or ederry dancing brave wood have won de triple crown big fucking time
Grenville was riding to orders , he was told to hold the horse up as they didn’t think it would stay
Greville.
The Brave a bad betting day so sweet to settle the account in the arc, still my favourite horse .
You are right to a point Michael. Epsom didn't do The Brave any favours but the jockey who was a legend by the way made a misjudgement due to the horse being a doubtful stayer. In future races however DB proved he was superior to Sharastani and the rest winning one of the strongest Arc de Triomphe's of all time. Not sure what your reference to Sharastani winning an Irish Derby by lengths counts for, he beat a horse Bonhomie who ended up running over 2 miles and further, so that was a poor race.
Shahrastani never got the credit he deserved, regardless of what people think of Grevile Starkeys ride of Dancing Brave, Walter Swinburne gave Shahrastani a superb ride and Walter was fortunate he had a decent horse under him when could hold his position well and quicken when Swinburne wanted is mount to do so.
I would rate Sharastani and Triptych about even. Both very good Horses but unfortunate to have DB to contend with. Triptych had three good seasons but couldn't quite win the big races
Mr.Starkey's ride on Dancing Brave was easily the worst Classic ride I've seen in the last 30 years, possibly the worst EVER. He's out the back the whole way and almost last at Tattenham Corner. Never saw Piggott have a horse in that position in a Derby in my life. This ride is so bad it will still be getting talked about in another 25 years, that's how BAD it was.
Exactly
DB was one of the greats, his Arc win will take some beating as a spectacle...but for what it's worth I think Nijinsky was the daddy...awesome! ....his son Golden Fleece also won the Derby easily (1982) coming from miles back (DB style) and could been a real superstar in his own right.......tragic loss
"... Well, he's had Golden Fleece and now he's had Sharastani..but he's not had Judith Chalmers..."
This didn't matter still the best horse ever
bad day at the office Starkey although stats of guineas to derby means a lot
The last two furlongs from dancing brave. Wow.
If that was the franky detori or late pat eddery and great Lester piggot dancing brave wood have walk true sharistani like knife true butter./. That was de fastest 2 furlong sprint I've seen ina Epsom Derby greville was not right Jocky for him at all
Everybody has a bad day and this was greviles he will be forever known as the man who cost dancing brave the Epsom derby
Agreed. That’s what happens when you ride a great horse. The horse did his part, you got to do yours.
Rather than calling starkey a “Cnut “ etc perhaps it’s better to have listened to hardwood after the race a man better judged than anyone alive on what suited DB and happened..:
He had to be held up they didn’t think he would suit or stay Epsom track and he was awful on left handed tracks ....starkey was told to hold up the issue with the race its was so slow pace it began to bunch then concertina out with 5/6F left and that cost him .. he was in the position told to be it was more bad racing luck and Epsom he didn’t handle ...that’s the exact Harwood quotes ...
Starkey Rode him twice after also
I think the issue is holding him up for the last 2 furlongs from a midfield position compared to holding him up at the back.
Maybe they assumed he wasn’t going to be dead last and the widest runner
I wonder what the time was for his last furlong,,,he made a lot of ground up,,,,should have won it easy,,he must have had 10L or more to make up on sharastani
did i just see brownes gazzette colours!
Biggest travesty in horseracing, and every thing that happened later proved it.
Great video
Thanks
Shame neither had much of an impact at stud
Watch dancing brave turn into the straight, it took a full furlong to get him balanced. Also the slow early pace meant the field was packed together. None of this helped
Greville messed it up
Indeed and Guy Harwood didn`t help matters, as it was Guy Harwood before the race, who appeared to put the doubt in Greville`s and everyone`s else`s mind as to whether or not Dancing Brave would make 12 furlongs...It was only after the Derby that Dancing Brave demonstrated that he truly was the best between 8 and 12 furlongs in 1986
Commentary should have been " But here, powering down the centre of the track comes the red hot favourite Dancing Brave, but oh so much to do. He's got a furlong and a half in which to do it". Would have sounded much better. Just saying.
Shahrastani won the Irish derby by 8 lengths! It was the king George dancing brave beat a off form shahrastani. He didn't handle the corner well but a jockey has to take that into consideration when racing wide
Unbelievable speed from Dancing Brave anyone who believes Frankel could of beaten him at 1m 4f are out of there mind.
Last time starkey ever rode dancing brave he deserved to lose the ride on him bad bad ride, dancing brave would have destroyed the field
Magner45 Starkey did ride him again - 1986 Coral Eclipse Stakes.
+Laytonia1977 Starkey also rode him in the Select stakes.
number 10
wee wally had 100 hundred on ...think he out clevered starkey....
Dancing brave stayed 12 furlongs but only just ! Shahrastani run poorly in the king George and to a lesser degree in the arc, but dancing brave would have had a hard race in the Irish derby if he contended that race in my opinion
Absolutely Spot on,Shahrastani never got the credit he deserved, sadly he lost his form after the Irish Derby and couldn't regain it at that level again.
I still think he's going to win it!
Shahrastani trebled the distance he beat mashkour and more so with other Epsom derby contenders in the Irish derby. I think dancing brave would have struggled to best shahrastani in the Irish Derby, but would probably have done so by a short margin
I was there because I wanted the brave to win, I had £50 to put on him but my mate said no u never know he could run a bad race ! so I put 25 instead ! it was not the horse that ran a bad race, it Grenville Grr ! made up for it in the next two races though lol xx Dancing brave best horse period , best filly Pebbles in my opinion , I happen to follow those two at the time and made some money ! weeee! alas that was a bloody long time ago ! not won since ! lol
Best horse .... at what ? He wouldn't live with Frankel over 8f-10f. Frankel wouldn't live with STS over 12f.
I was there too with about 6 friends stood on a bench on the grandstand lawn that collapsed as we jumped up and down cheering Dancing Brave. We'd lumped on after Starkey was quoted as saying the horse was a "monster" on the gallops. Can't remember now but think we were on at 9/4.
I make you right. I once spoke with James Delahooke who bought DB. He said he had seen Secretariat, Brigadier Gerard etc and that DB had beaten better horses. he also said he would have backed him to win a July Cup. As for Pebbles - great great filly - maybe the best ?
ed kaley interesting thxs xx
ed kaley oh so sharp arguably better, certainly more versatile