How to use a climbing belay device in guide mode including lowering, Black Diamond ATC / DMM Pivot
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- Опубликовано: 21 апр 2020
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A video showing how to set up and use a belay device in guide mode, importantly including releasing and safe lowering too.
Please do fire away with any questions...
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Great vids as usual.
I find a bit dangerous (a lot realy) to use your weight to release without backing the belay device (with an italian hitch e g), you often times trip and "fall" on your harness and that would set your mate on a free fall w/o control, so I think your suggestion to always back up is paramount.
Yeah I agree. A system's integrity shouldn't be reliant on me staying on my feet and never stumbling or anything. I'm a fan of using a redirected brake strand with a prussik, although the Italian hitch seems a little more convenient.
I agree about gravity loading. I was taught "screw down, so you don't screw up" which is a good reminder. Another great video. Thank you
Like it!
Bobby from how not 2 taught me that saying
I really appreciate you sharing this information. I like how you present many options for accomplishing a certain task, while discussing pros and cons of each. This does make the videos longer, but it is certainly worth it for me. In the real world there is rarely one and only one way to do something. Having the knowledge and skills to evaluate, choose, and use a certain method is extremely important.
I love your presentation style, voice, and offhand humor. Keep up the good work!
Thanks for the kind words! Glad you’re enjoying them.
His method of instructional video is incredibly rare. I find all too often that other channels tell you 'THE CORRECT AND SAFE WAY' to do things, leaving you feeling intimidated and worried about meticulously remembering the fine details. Where JB, gives a few options (that are safe), tells you which one he prefers and uses and why, but leaves ou feeling that another way that maybe you prefer (that is still safe) is totally cool. bravo.
Sorry to be offtopic but does anyone know a trick to get back into an Instagram account?
I was dumb lost my login password. I love any tricks you can offer me!
@Isaiah Jesse thanks for your reply. I got to the site on google and Im trying it out atm.
I see it takes a while so I will reply here later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
@Isaiah Jesse It worked and I now got access to my account again. Im so happy:D
Thanks so much you saved my account !
spending so much time watching your videos and playing on my own sling mountain, I’d like to say thanks videos are quality, instructional, informative you’ve inspired me to put that practise in to get things as you say dialled keep up the good work 👍👊
Great to hear enjoying them! Plenty more to come :)
Same here!
Thanks for this video, it shows me the severe limitations of using the ATC guide on the anchor when it comes to lowering. To have to deal with all that cumbersome finagling just to lower someone safely really demonstrates the limitations of that device in that orientation.
Pleasure :)
That lowering technique is awesome 👏
Glad you like it!
Your videos are always really easy to understand, in a friendly and non-condescending manner. But what I particularly enjoy, and this video highlights this well, is the way you offer options where so many other climbing channels often just state THE WAY TO DO IT. You accept there are a few ways to achieve your goal and still remain quite safe, yet guide people towards your way, that you feel is the best and safest way. But still, the way you explain this leaves us feeling that if we prefer a different method (that is still one of your safe options) then that's fine. Hats off to you for balancing that so well. I can imagine you're a pleasant crag partner.
Thanks for the kind words and glad you've liked them!
It's really great how you show the progression to the ideal.
Dude, really like your educational style. Keep it up. Sent you some coffee money. I learn tons watching your videos.
Love the "sling mountain".
Very kind, thank you ☕️💪
I am just getting into climbing and find your videos really really helpful and very easy to learn from you Thankyou
My pleasure 👊
Sensational video. Made an intimidating topic very accessible! Nice work 😁
Incredible video. I really appreciated how you walked us through the evolution of the systems; the benefits of each iteration were easy to identify. I also appreciated removing yourself from the system for visual clarity.
Thank you.
Glad it was helpful!
Your videos are superb, I'm really enjoying them, thank you very much.
Absolute pleasure 👊
Thank you so much for the clear instructions!
Wow what a great tutorial from you. Been a pleasure to watch. You seems like a really cool guy as well! Thanks for the video 😁🤙
Glad you liked it!
Thank you dude, answered every one of my questions about the atc guide :)
Glad I could help!
JB Mountain Skills you did man, went out today to a top belay spot with all your techniques and it went smooth!
Cool video mate. I always redirected the brake strand and put a prusik on it but never really thought about Italian hitch, I like that! Haha. Always great to see something simple but something you never thought about before. Nice one!
I used to teach using a Prusik, I just find it's a little nicer to use a "proper" belay method. I'd still personally be happy with a Prusik though.
That italian hitch is almost magical, solves so many issues, essential part of your "tool box" haha.
Great videos, really clear instruction, Keep 'em coming!
Glad you like them!
@@JBMountainSkills Hey Jez, could you talk about the retreading of the tail you do on your tie in? I like that. Especially when taking coils I find the tail gets in the way and can be confusing.
Christopher Chorney I’ll add it to the list!
Want to buy me a coffee or the boy a dog treat?! www.buymeacoffee.com/jbmountain
the link gave me a 404 error, ill get you a dring next time at petes eats
@@stevebower1393 cheers, fixed it now!
That was a good one!! Thanks for this video.
My pleasure!
very useful ! thank you for sharing this contente.
My pleasure!
Very nicely explained. Would trust you to belay any day.
Cheers Mate.
Jez, these videos are fantastic. Guide mode is my 'go to' for belaying my Mrs (who also thinks you're amazing for making her lead Equinox and Seamstress on an improver course).
If I have to lower, I will sometimes use an Italian hitch on a new carabiner in one of the top bits of gear (only when it is bomber or a bolt) and the same ATC pivoting techniques are yourself. Positives for this is that the break stand for the Italian hitch is naturally in the correct direction and feels a little more intuitive. Negatives is that you have potentially taken out /compromised some redundancy by effectively having the climber on a single piece.
Glad you like 'em! I like that turn of phrase "making her lead"...!
Good stuff, Jez I would emphasise you must have a backup when using a redirect into your harness (italian, prussic, another plate....) imagine if when clipped like that you fell over/tripped - opens the device and could be catastrophic. You can use a longer sling into a foot loop as well and use leg pressure , but these are all quite advanced stuff..... Cheers
I find it interesting that DMM say it's ok to lower without a back up. The Pivot does seem easier to modulate, but I'm still not keen. The ATC Guide info from BD shows using a back up.
@@JBMountainSkills me neither, the potential is scary but rare I guess, but we are talking about a long lower here not a few feet...
I’m sure I’ve seen a video of you showing the best method of transitioning guide mode into lead belay. Could you reply with the link please 👍
Amazing Video. Leant a ton from it. I have one question. For anchor building with trad gear, should I use a sling or the rope for guide mode? Would love to hear your toughts.
Glad it was useful! Normally it would be a sling style setup, but you can use the rope too, depends on the situation really.
This is excellent! Thank you so much!
Would you ever use guide mode while doing a regular toprope belay, and then use the redirect trick or carabiner-lever or locker-wiggle to give slack, simply for the purpose of having a locking system?
Personally, probably not. It's just extra faff. I'd rather use a GriGri if I wanted the assisted braking element.
With attaching the lowering sling to your harness, if for example a rock fell and knocked you out, surely any automatic locking of the atc for your partner is negated. Instead of dangling and awaiting potential rescue they're unprotected.
I feel like a "dead man switch" should make the system safer for the uninjured partner.
Or am I missing something? 🤔
Note. I bloody love your videos! Fantastic work! 😍
Glad you're liking them!
It's certainly a consideration. I think about in terms of "normal" belaying though, where there's no back up, so it's no worse than that.
Another option is to replace the Italian Hitch with a Prusik, which would then be a "dead man switch", but with its own cons..!
Really liked your video. You are very clear and engaging. Have you done a video using a GriGri in guide mode?
Glad you like them :)
Good question... I lose track but I think I have!
Hi mate. Really enjoying the videos. Amazing what can be achieved from sling mountain. Please keep them coming. I often use guide mode and sometimes hang the belay plate from the shelf. Could you please expand on the potential negatives of this setup? I’ve searched far and wide and it’s not commonly discussed. Potentially the ropes running over the anchor system? I combat this by hanging the plate from the bottom strands of the shelf (so the plate hangs down from the anchor shelf). Really interested in your views on this. Thanks in advance
Glad you’re enjoying them! It really is a minor negative that it may be slightly more awkward to redirect it if you need to lower, only because the redirect will have to go further up the system, probably on to a piece of your belay. Nothing to be stressed about!
JB Mountain Skills Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for getting back to me. Keep up the good work.
Hi Jez. I have watched several of your videos now, just refreshing my memory. I notice you didn't mention the slight risk when using guide mode, of the ropes inverting and removing the break assist element, probably just to avoid confusion, but maybe cover that in an update?
I was working towards my RCI qual, which is now on hold, and I have found that the hardest part to complete is the trad routes. I live on the south coast, so there are places I can go, but it's mainly sport climbs in the difficulty range required. I have found a good place in Somerset, but it takes several hours to get there and back, can you recommend anywhere closer?
Regards.
Hi Jeffrey,
I have to draw the line somewhere with these videos, I make them too long as it is! You're right it is a slight risk, mostly if using very skinny ropes with two clients, involving a traverse.
I'd get out at places like Subluminal and Cattle Troughs if you're near there, if you have experience of sea cliff stuff, whilst they're not in the scope of RCI they're great to have in the logbook if you have the appropriate skills.
enjoy the RCI process :)
HI JB - not seen your other vid's (*YET) but came b'c just bought a GUide mode Black Diamond ATC. Gr8 vid. for this! WOndering tho - here (and presumably on yr other vid) see a lot of loadbearing biners opposed inside a knotted loop. I haven't (deliberately / non desperately) used this as a tie in or a load-bearing point, because of the knot deformation and potential for knot to cinch tight? won't loading ON the knot compromise it? I've been taught that knots like 8 or (heaven forbid) a bowline, are safe/ smart for a load straight thru line of the knot. Not two biners pulling both directions.
Can you / viewers help - or should I just see yr back catalogue LOL
Great video as always, thanks!
Just one issue for me - where I live most of the climbs are single pitch, so as I belay my second I tend to sit on top of the cliff, usually with a loop of the rope back to a tree or so out of reach for protection (clove hitch back to harness, belaying with atc directly of harness). All of the vids I find demonstrate the guide brake hanging from a high masterpoint, as would be the case on a multipitch stand or whenever you have the option of a free hanging master point. I would love some tips (or better yet a video!) on how to set up a guide break in an efficient and safe way when you are using the rope flat on the ground in a loop to some point (a tree etc) out of reach. Is it still safe and comfy to use when the guide break is laying on the ground? Just an overhand not on the rope loops to get the masterpoint for the break?
(sorry for my rough English and descriptions)
I think you have the right idea. Make a matter point somewhere around 1m back from the edge with an overhang on a night etc. 2 things are connected to your master point: 1) you with 1m of slack so you can sit on the edge and see your partner, and 2) the belay device in guide mode. The climbers rope and brake ropes are then sitting next to you on the ground.
famfolk I'm sure I've done this or similar, belaying from a seated position with legs over the cliff edge... are you describing the belay device, sitting on ' flat ' ground, with all that rope running horizontally? so the load bearing rope that's leading to seconder passes over the edge or lip of the cliff? I have never tried that ... seems hard ... I think I would have put belay device OVER the edge, but you don't want to be leant forwards to operate it (unless it's a desperate situation & it's expedient!) although with the right help from tapes or ropes you can lean against something supportive.
I am thinking while brainstorming that I'm not qualified to comment LOL
Both these strategy are pretty awkward.. I think I would have instead run the anchors over the edge and have all the action over there. Me and belay device over the edge - perhaps now the belay device will be in free space instead of pinned onto the ground. Sit in harness facing rock with feet spread. Coil loops over one foot. Get gr8 view of what the seconder is doing. Better with a serious harness obvs ;) I am not good enough to sports climb, have the overkill of a bigwall harness now I'm old, much more comfy to sit!@
Seen that sling technique (for releasing the guide mode) many times and I'm a fan of it. The new reverso has the front hole way too small and no sling fits there anymore. Also the manual says not to use a sling, which I don't understand why they'd advise against.
Thoughts?
Not sure! I think they advise using a crab to lever it open? Must admit I do like a back up of some flavour.
Hi - you mention belaying with an Italian (Munter) hitch as an option - do you find problems with it kinking the rope? Are there situations where you would use a Monster Munter for extra braking safety? Great videos, thanks a lot.
Italian Hitches can twist the ropes a bit with a lot of use, but I don't generally find it a problem. I use them a lot in scrambling work.
I don't ever use the monster, but it's a nice thing to know :)
Thanks for doing the video. However, the camera needs to zoom in for me to see the ATC ropes etc. in action.
Love the videos Mate. In Michigan's UP, we often climb over open water. So from the top we set and anchor, lower the climber down near the water, then while they have full weight on the anchor, I need to belay them back up. I don't believe I can do this from the lowering mode using the Italian Hitch as backup. That doesn't convert to belay mode under the weight of the climber. What's your solution for this situation using a ATC guide?
I'd probably just use an Italian Hitch rather than a guide plate, or I often use a GriGri for similar scenarios.
You could lower with a standard guide plate redirected and then when they're at the bottom, let the ATC Guide engage and lock, sack off the back up and go into belaying them back up in guide mode.
Hope that makes sense, and hope I understood the question properly!
@@JBMountainSkills Got it, that does make sense. Agree that the Grigri may be easier in this situation. I always like to know the options. Thanks
great explanation!
i have a question about that lowering with pulling the carabiner up:
last saturday we went to a icefall und lowered each other from a tree down to it and climbed a little.
my partner felt not good by lowering me with this method, like you do. But for my sense , there is soo much friction involved, when you change the angle back down just a bit. in case of a accident whilst lowering, that would happen automatically, or not?
For me it felt save but just uncomfortable pulling the plate up to lower my partner 35m. What do you think about that?
btw we had a 8,9 single rope(edelrid swift)
LG
Simon
Cheers!
Good questions. I am really loathe to suggest it's ok to pull up on the release hole of the belay device without any back up, having seen / heard of some pretty "exciting" moments.
I suspect it's one of those things that if you're well practiced at it, it can work ok, and like you say if it goes too fast, you just change the angle, but I guess the problem comes from people panicking a little, especially with the device in an "odd" orientation compared to normal belaying.
If I was doing some single pitch stuff and was expecting to lower I'd favour a GriGri or similar myself.
As I'm learning more from practising the lessons learn't from these films I am more inclined to offset the loops below the knot in the sling, separating my safety clip in point from the belay point. Any downsides from an assessors point of view?
Mark Demmery not something I do, but no reason why not!
Is there a reason not to redirect the braking strand up higher with a carabiner; rather than having to hold it over your head?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but at around the 5 and 6 minute mark when you tie the clove hitch i believe what you did was the “one handed clove” which is actually dangerous Bc if the climber you are belaying actually falls the one handed clove will come undone and the climber will fall all the way to the ground. Again I am not 100% sure but I remember seeing something about that and I would like clarification
I'm not sure I understand? Why would a clove hitch that's been tied one handed come undone?
If you're incapacitated, they're in free fall. I think a VT off your harness would be a more appropriate backup there.
It’s an option for sure.
I'm new to trad multipitch and my partner is quite a bit heavier than me. I wonder what adjustments, would you do on this system to belay the lead up from that station. I have been belaying him from my belay loop with a Grigri, but worry sometimes about myself and the anchors being pulled up in the case of a fall. Thank you!!!
*interested - but maybe this sin't very clear description :(
I never found this. Is she leading. I think one opposing piece in yr anchor (resisting the lifting action) would fix this? OR - if they're seconding - are you not belaying from the anchors (plate/Grigri hanging from anchors)? I thought the friction and give in this kindof system would minimise how much (lift?) you get. OR - perhaps this is my secret - hope yorue partner is *better* than you - so she isn't taking massive falls on second LOL ;)
Hi I'm now in my forty's and have sweaty hands watching heights , I'm an electrician and have been following your super safe procedure s , I would love to climb need a lot of chalk but I'm thinking why have I been so afraid of falling when the risks have been negated . Top bloke thanks can I come climb in the east midland s .
Love this - so informative! I’ve been reading the comments to see if anyone called out why clipping yourself into the master point and clipping the guide plate into the shelf might cause more complications in a certain situation but didn’t see any. Can you shed any light? Is it because it becomes harder to setup a redirect for lowering because it needs to be higher than the plate? And your anchor maybe out of reach?
Also keen to know - I actually did put the belay device in the shelf for some climbs at the weekend and thought it was neat so keen to know why I was wrong lol
Nothing wrong with long vids Jes!
If you lose your footing while the lever is connected to your harness while lowering?
I'm not nearly as experienced as most here but I had a small comment on you method of attaching the sling to yourself. It seems like it would be very easy to either slip or otherwise weight the sling, opening up the ATC and dropping the climber. Would backing up with the munter/italian hitch first solve this, or is it not a real problem in the first place?
Awesome video. Cheers
Good question! In the video I do back up the redirected lower with an Italian Hitch, I do like to have a back up on there :)
Great video! Sometimes when belaying 2 climbers from the top using the belay device in guide mode the ropes won't run very smoothly, or won't run at all (my ropes are not very narrow, but still well into the range allowed by my belay device -Edelweiss Guru Alpin-). I'm talking about taking rope while the climbers are climbing, not when they are putting their weight on the rope. Is there a trick to help the ropes run better (maybe using the belay device nose hole or something)?
If you can, try some different carabiners with it. The one the ropes run over can make quite a difference :)
Did you check to make sure your ATC can handle the width in that configuration. My Black diamond atc cant handle wider ropes when belaying 2 from the top as opposed to belaying a single rope from the ground
when lowering, could you replace the italian hitch with a prusik?
Hi Dan, yeah absolutely you can. There's an old video on my channel somewhere teaching it that way! I have settled on the Italian hitch as my preferred method these days, but I still think the Prusik back up is a decent way to do it.
What kind of sling do you use for anchor? I always thought that these kind of slings are not supposed to be shock-loaded, since they are static. I imagine there would be a lot of force applied to them in case of a fall, especially if it’s a bigger one
David L regular Dyneema ones, usually dmm. Because the rope is dynamic, it doesn’t matter that the sling is static. It’s the same principle of QuickDraw dog bones being static - the rope does all the shock absorbing.
@@JBMountainSkills that makes a lot of sense, thank you. Is there a point to make those redundant? Maybe as a multipitch beginner?
Yeah every belay needs to have redundancy 🙂
I would pay you to make an asmr video about climbing
That's why they're all 10-20 minutes ;)
could you back up the atc in guide mode with a prusik on the climbers side of the system? so if too much rope went through the prusik would lock up
You could, I'd rather back it up on the braking side though.
At about the 12:30/13:00ish minute mark when you are discussing lowering from guide mode, why not do an actual redirect of the brake strand (up and then back down) so you are always pulling down to brake which is far more efficient (and much easier) than pulling up as you do in every case?
You could, but I'd rather bring the rope down to an Italian/Munter or Prusik. I think that's what I show in this video.
Lots of ways to achieve safe lowering :)
Can you belay from the bottom with an atc guide? Using it in guide mode
I've seen it done, but it's not something I'd normally recommend. I'd rather use something designed for it like a grigri or alpine click up if you need two ropes.
Well, that’s a great video, “isn’t it”? 😂 Only joking and thanks for these 👍
Lower with a grigri?
Would a munter hitch could have worked instead of Italian hitch?
Same thing, that's what he meant.
It's Munter by the way, Werner Munter, not even 'Italian'.
It's sometimes called an Italian Hitch as it was first shown at a Guides conference in Italy.
Just because you know it as a Munter, it doesn't mean that's it's common name in every region.
Try a Kong GiGi if you're using two fat ropes. Way friendlier on your elbows.
Crux Equipment yeah I mention them in the vid. Don’t like using them in an instructing sense though as it paints a slightly odd picture.
if you thought your 2nd would potentially need lowering at some point, would you not rather just use a gri-gri and save all this faff
Yup, every time! Or an Italian hitch if I didn’t have a Grigri
This Italian hitch thing to lower to me doesn’t make sense as you’re completely taking ATC out of its use. I think most people just redirect the brake strand to a carabiner above, then flip the ATC with a sling and then you’re using ATC as it’s intended purpose while keeping hands low by redirect.
A bit too much diversion at the start.
But a lot of interesting and substantiated options later.
I guess a gri gri is easier
Yup but only if using just one rope.
Just use a Grigri.
But... two ropes.
@@JBMountainSkills I hear you, but in terms of top belaying this is way too many moving parts if you need to lower them. As a guide I'm certain you know what you're doing but I'm strongly inclined to the view the majority of climbers should use a Grigri and top belay one climber at a time.
Why do people say 'Italian'
The hitch was invented by Werner Munter, who is Swiss.
Because it was first shown at a Guides conference in Italy.
Great video, but when you cut you have some flash/flicker effect which is horrible
...why are you calling that the italian hitch? Isn't it the munter?
They’re the same thing. I believe it was first shown at an Italian Guides conference or something similar so became known as the Italian Hitch, but it was popularised by Werner Munter, a Swiss Guide, so also became known that way.
In the U.K. it gets called both, but more frequently an Italian.
@@JBMountainSkills Well I've been climbing for decades and this is the first time I've heard of "Italian hitch". Asked my British friend and he says munter is more common but it's also a slur for fat women or somesuch so maybe that's why some people use italian :)
@@The_Ballo not that it matters but in my decades of climbing both personal and for work, in the U.K. Italian Hitch is by far the most common, but most know both names for it.
Overkill… and hard to understand the accent