Does Engine Idling Waste Fuel? (Start-Stop Technology)
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- Опубликовано: 28 мар 2024
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Engine start-stop is a technology designed to reduce fuel consumption, by shutting off the engine at stop-lights. But does this tech actually do anything? Obviously, an idling engine uses fuel, while an engine that’s off does not. But restarting that engine does use fuel. So which one has more of an impact? Well a study published in SAE tested exactly this, as well as real world test drives to see the impact. The results are surprising!
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It would also be helpful to know how much wear and tear all this restarting adds to the engine, starter motor, etc.
They use brushless starters, so basically none.
@@vyvianalcott1681 no brushes maybe.. what about the pinion, ring gear, solenoid etc?
Not sure what the extra wear and tear would be on the engine, the stop is relatively short duration, there will still be an oil film on the bearings, rings, and cylinder walls, everything is still at operating temperature, the restart should be easy, so I don’t think there is meaningful wear on the engine from start/stop. The starter motor clearly gets more use, and that means more wear and tear, but does it matter? A little math can answer that question: assume the vehicle gets 40mpg without start/stop and gets 5% better fuel economy with it, and let’s assume the starter costs $400 to replace, and further assume $4/gal for gasoline, solving for the point where the cost of the starter equals the value of the fuel saving, we have to save 100 gallons of fuel, which will happen at 81,600 miles. So if the starter lasts at least 81,600 miles of driving on the start/stop regimen then there will be a net savings. Clearly starter life will be heavily influenced by how many start/stops happen per mile (more being bad) as will fuel savings (more being good) so good real-world data is needed, but it seems plausible that start/stop can yield a net savings.
I’m editing this because so many people have misunderstood my point in this comment, which is simply that the concerns about start/stop are overblown. I agree that the savings aren’t huge, but they are real, and I was trying to put useful numbers on the hypotheticals, to give a perspective, a basis to think about the value of start/stop. Too often people want to let their feelings about (something) dictate their perception about the facts, but I’m an advocate for trying to be as objective and facts-based as possible.
The question is not only how much will the wear and tear cost to the starter, battery, but also to the crankshaft bearings, cylinders, camshafts, etc, from lower oil pressure. Regardless, I can afford the measly fuel used to idle and not risk the engine reliability or waste my precious time having a car in the shop.
@@jpe1Blowby is what allows an engine to achieve full oil pressure, so no, it won't have full oil pressure while off.
Edit: For the people that keep replying to me, I'm going off the oil pressure gauge in my car. 600 kpa with any throttle, regardless of RPM, otherwise ~480 kpa off throttle, high RPM. 180 kpa idle. Values change with oil temperature, for example, it's 650 kpa on a cold start at idle.
+8% fuel
-8% engine life
Edit: We got WWIV in the replies before GTA 6
Probably 10% less engine life or more
Honestly, all those stories of "engine wear on start-up" is hogwash. The exception may be that of a cold start, but.... a Briggs and Stratton, WHILE RUNNING, has no more oil in its bearings and rings than a warm-start car engine and they last thousands of hours.
It is an urban myth that this starting and stopping of engines wears them more. Start-stop systems have been in place an awful long time now. I have yet to see a correlation of reduced engine longevity and having a start/stop system.
@@paulstandaert5709 Premature timing chain failures started to become very frequent around the same time start-stop systems did. I don't have any data to back my hunch, but the added stress on the timing chain from having to start up the engine so frequently without the tensioner being under oil pressure seems like a logical reason.
@@lilstubthumb lol, no
@@paulstandaert5709 ı think too, oil is still in everywhere but when engine start up every one week it will wear more,my bmw starts with no oil at start and the sound hurts.Sorry if ı misunderstand
A note, accelerating slightly slower and coasting slightly more can also save +10% on mileage while also reducing wear on your engine
Get out of the fast lane
@@dieselfrk13ong bro I’m not trying to be a dick but all these guys be doing is making me, (who wants to get where I wanna be quick) seem like an asshole when really I just wanna drive my car the way it’s meant to be maaaan 😭
Theres no law on how fast i get to the speed limit move
@@reggienotorious6824law? No. Laws? Yes.
@@reggienotorious6824 Its's called a "competition start" or 'careless driving'.
All gangsta until the starter motor gives up in 5 years
Exactly!!! I saved $8 worth of fuel this year but I had to spend $900 for a new starter....
🤣
OEM Start Stop Systems Use a More Capable Starter Motor System, Some are even on a 48V Bus, and run via the Alternator Side, not the Flywheel Side!
@@robertweekley5926 That is actually good to know.
@surfstarcc1 you must not drive alot... the average drive would save 100's of dollars a year
its fun and games until the car doesnt start again
edit: did not expect to see a war down in the comments
😂
I've heard vehicles with auto-shutoff have a secondary starter for that reason
@@notdrew3780 negative. Also wears the battery out much faster.
@@notdrew3780I think that some use a separate battery.
@@jdelbridSeperate battery and separate starter = even more costly, even more stuff to maintain, even more that can go wrong.
The starter motor: "I'm tired boss..."
“Dog tired…”
Thing is, there’s a lot of components that can get tired that all are in the stop start system; battery, relays, starter, flywheel, electrical connections. So the question of will it restart is always pertinent.
The starter motor is beefed up in cars with this system.
As a dealership tech I've only replaced 3 starter motors since stop start was introduced 15 years ago.
@@jonhunt5408 thing is, most fear are made up except maybe for the battery in some brand.
@@panzervepsdon’t they also stop in a position that requires less energy for turning over?
Let me answer some things as an automotive engineer.
We’re in the day and age of planned obsolescence and EPA overreach. The start/stop system in general is designed to save the consumer money in the short term, but make the dealership techs money in the long run while appeasing the EPA. You will save money during the duration of the failure point, the starter’s life. Automotive companies are hoping that once the starter eventually goes out the average person is going to take their car to the dealership for a new starter. The service and labor fees will on average far surpass the fuel savings you got. This is why the RPM act and the right to repair or so important. They maintain the right of the consumer to be able to maintain and repair their own vehicles if they choose to do so. Cutting out the labor fees and just going off of what parts cost on average would actually net a positive savings for the consumer from auto start/stop technology. From their the consumer has to decide if repairing their vehicle themselves is worth their time.
The manufacturer isn’t going to profit from the extra strain this system puts on your battery, but your battery will not last as long as it traditionally would depending on the amount of traffic in the area you live in. Traffic jams will be a massive strain on your car’s battery while average light to light traffic won’t be as bad.
Everything is relative to your specific use and abuse of the system.
Personally I feel that the savings up front aren’t worth the potential future lost time, so I turn it off (I happily repair and build my own vehicles. It’s why I’m in the field I’m in. I want to make things better for the hobbyist and consumer alike, plus I enjoy my work.)
While I may not agree with it this is just the scope of the landscape.
its not only about the starter. everytime i forget to disable this system i am stepping on gas before engine fully starts. it cant be good for it. In some cars you can jam piece of credit card in the switch and it will stay disabled but now I've got a Jeep and the system is smarter.
So it would be safe to say you spent a dollar to save 10 cents type of statement?. I'm talking about at least the point of the turning off the vehicle to save a few drops of gas but you have to repair the rest of the car in order to do that kind of thing
@@divergentthg7925different is not much as 1/10 scale, probably you will spend like 1.40 dollar for every dollar you saved. But in long term there will be surprises that makes you spend more.
@JaplamAplam not everything in life has to be short life is not about a tick tock
@JaplamAplam you're not ready for such a video
Bruh most the time your car turns off as the light turns green 😂
You just wasted 7 seconds worth of fuel 😤
And that delay to start forward at a freshly green light means more cars don't make it through the intersection due to the poorly timed left-turn being so short. So more fuel is being saved as you now get to sit for another two minutes and wait for the light you just missed because the driver in the front was on their phone, too.
I saved $2.65 on fuel, but then had a starter installed for $425.00 . What a deal
It doesn't hurt the starter, I've had my truck since end of 2017, it's literally fine. 100k miles
Except some doesn't use starter
Some just leave a piston at top of the compression stroke so it just injects fuel and sparks it to restart the engine
Learn before you complain
My car doesn't use the starter motor when it stop/starts. Just needs a little spark and a spray of gas from one of the injecters.
I have yet to hear of someone burning out a starter using start stop.
@FonicsSuck happens but is about the same likely hood of burning up a starter on a normal vehicle as there either built stronger or doesn't even use it
I prefer this system is hybrids because it’s a smooth transition of engine cutting off, accelerating again, then the engine cutting on again while I’m still in motion.
Yes, exactly right. My bf has a Honda Pilot with it. Always feels like it’s hesitating when started back up. It’s not too bad, but noticeable and annoying.
You still waste excess gas stopping the engine then starting again
@@nicholascurry5515 Did you EVEN watch the short?
Yep, I hate these systems because by all reasonable measure they are illegal by current laws and for a decent reason.
They give up your control over the vehicle. It's illegal for me to put the car from drive into neutral because I cannot power away from any issues I need to move forwards to avoid. This system is effectively the same because it takes so long before you actually get meaningful power from the engine if you are stopped and want to accelerate immediately.
@@cherriberri8373no one goes into neutral when idling. For you, they created a button to shut off auto on/off. For rest of us that experience traffic, it's a great system if equipped with electric start that transition back to gas.
A friend of mine has been a trucker for his whole career. Decades ago, when diesel was cheap, they would let their trucks idle overnight in the winter to keep them warm. Used very little fuel and saved their starters over time.
Polar bears and penguins:....
About a gallon of diesel every hour
@@sandasturner9529 on the high end
If it's below -20°C or so a diesel truck isn't starting again once it cools to ambient temperature unless you have an electric block heater plugged in or a webasto/eberspacher diesel fired coolant preheater. Even when it's nice out I don't shut the trucks off at work unless I'm close to home. It was a nice day couple springs ago and I was waiting for another driver from our company at a truckstop. "It's so nice out I should shut the truck off and stop wasting fuel" I thought to myself. Well when I was ready to leave, due to Murphys law that's when a ground had broken off the starter. Truck was an automatic so you couldn't even pull start it. Ended up laying under the truck in dried trucker piss fixing the ground so I could get home. Never shut the truck off since lol
Wow that's very anti ecological
Never had a car new enough to have this technology.
I don't plan to. Anything built since cash for clunkers is disposable junk, and is that way intentionally.
Now we need a study on wear and tear on the engine from multiple starts vs no starts, in between trips
I've only ever thought of the starter, that's a good point
We have a study on where in tear the engine life cycle is not about mileage, but about how many times it heats up and cools down so pretty much any time to start the engine and stop the engine making this process really bad for it
Sir if my 2004 with 300,000 miles on it can start up just fine on the same engine and starter it was sent off from the factory the car will be fine.
@@mrsynapse what's the car?
There isn't a problem with the starters, this function has been here in Europe for ages now and they don't blow through starters. Only thing that's needed is an AGM battery but they last just as long or longer than regular.
Every time I'm in a car with my grandfather, he absolutely hates that function.
i don't hate it but what i do hate is that i've already had to replace my starter, because it's getting used 10x more
@@noahr6786lol
Sucker
Because grandparents hate everything new
@@noahr6786 my jeep has been through 3 starters lol thanks to start stop lol in 100k miles
@@electricpaisy6045 they're mostly luddites tbh
Now, do a bore test after 50k mile. Then you'll see the "real" cost of starting an engine over and over.
I was just thinking about the different metals they play with to make hi stress points like cylinder walls and sleeves. My below basic knowledge says the first explosions those surfaces absorb as well as contact with the pistol rings/assembly more than usual will stress any material over less of those start-up explosions getting to and smoothly regulating the constant. But car maker refuse to give the consumer their full capability in designing/manufacturing. If Ford's model T has proven to efficiently operate over millions of miles with consistent maintenance, they can make a forever car with high performance and low fuel consumption.
facts
Yup...
I don’t understand, your hypothesis is that more explosions creates less wear?
Automotive engineer here.
In layman's terms, the stop-start engines have different oiling systems, bearing material and an uprated starter assembly literally designed (along with the battery, engine tolerances and entire electrical system) For stop-start.
So many drivers like to creep forward. They will come to a complete stop, shutting the engine off, only to start back up a second later when the driver creeps an inch forward. What a waste.
Then just don't do it if you have this
I'm a mechanic and always laugh by myself when I see this creeping forward by car drivers here in South Africa. Most cars here are manual transmission, and I see them rolling back and forth, holding the car on the clutch at the traffic lights that are uphill facing. That keeps me in good business 😊😊😊
That's just people being terrible drivers, you could have real full self driving and you're still going to get people who constantly yank on the wheel to "correct" the robot.
people who understand how their brakes work do this purposefully to prevent uneven material transfer between brake linings and rotors/drums
@@ghostlight69420 Absolute hogwash. Any rubbing between brake linings and rotors means wear and tear on the brakes. There's no such thing as preventing uneven material transfer by creeping forward. It's just a bad habit caused by impatience, nothing else.
Start/Stop system on my older car: my hand on the key 😂
Mine was my steering column, push it to the left, stops, move it back, starts up again
Never do a strat stop yourself, the car isn’t made for this purpose
@@acenewholland564 Yes, i guess the starter doesn't like starting the engine that often right? Oh, and the battery of course. I only turn the car off when i know it's going to take a while (train crossings for example) My original comment was purely intended to be funny.
@@Rundumsfliegen exactly right. Cars with stop start technology have starters the size of your head and the starter gear to handle the load of the car rolling from the start. Most if not all also have bulkier circuitry to handle the load without overheating the wiring.
@@Patrick-zr8tvbigger and heavier built batteries too
Driving habits play into this in a big way. I am a light braker, so i creep often, which causes my shut-off to go off and restart after a second. No fuel savings, extra wear, and increased fuel costs. To include huge R&E costs, more expensive starters, batteries, etc.... huge price tag increase for zero benefit to me and a ton of frustration. Especially because i dont live in a city or high traffic place.
The main thing I think I'd dislike about auto start-stop is the delay before I can go. My older car doesn't have this feature, but my newer car actually does. But it's also a plugin hybrid, so there is no delay. You're getting up to speed before the engine is even started, which is super cool.
My new gas Jeep Grand Cherokee has no delay. It starts immediately when I come off the brake and goes as soon as I touch the accelerator.
@MikeV8652 there is still hesitation. My whip is an 04 so I don't have that crap but every rental I've ever had that had it drove me nuts. I want the vehicle to respond immediately to my inputs. Could save your life if you are stopped at a light and have to make an evasive maneuver right fn now
@@juliogonzo2718 No, there's no hesitation at all in mine. Between that and how quiet it is, it's easy to forget about the existence of auto-start-stop.
Stop/start makes a lot more sense in a hybrid than it does in a normal gas engine. Reason being is many (not all) hybrids have an electric motor that's connected directly to the engine and can use this much more powerful electric motor to start the combustion engine rather than a traditional small high amperage starter.
Also, being able to creep forward with the electric motors means the engine can stay off for longer making it much more reasonable as a solution.
Not really. The starters are so overbuilt, you won't wear one out very easily. Toyota gives them something over 350K starts. And starting a warm engine take so little effort.
@@Dusdaddy My point was less about it going to cause premature failures. Toyota especially is the king of hybrids and I trust their engineering. It's more a hybrid is going to benefit significantly more than a non-hybrid powertrain, especially in stop and go traffic where you can still move without the engine running. It's just overall more useful in a hybrid than in a regular car.
Plus, since they're using a higher voltage, (48v or ~250v in Toyota's case depending on the vehicle) this means they can use significantly thinner conductors to transfer the same amount of energy and no longer a need for a traditional starter. Easier on the battery since it's not using the low voltage battery (high voltage, less amps, same output), no need for a traditional starter that is only used for starting the engine, and no potential wear from having to engage/disengage the starter every time the engine is started back up.
And sure, a 12v starter can be designed to handle it, but it's still literally hundreds of amps every single time the engine is started. And it's obviously significantly more on the larger engines.
@@jensalan Hybrid or not, the engine still needs to start. Yes, a hybrid that actually provide fwd movement like the Ram is nice because it makes it less noticeable but changes nothing on starting the engine.
@@Dusdaddy Well yes. Obviously your engine still needs to be started. But with a hybrid setup, you no longer need a traditional 12v starter whose only purpose is to start the engine. It can be replaced by an electric motor which can be used to propel the vehicle, regenerate energy, as well as starting the vehicle.
@@jensalan Sure, no argument. Just arguing your statement that it's best used in a hybrid. I would argue the opposite. Anything to get a traditional ICE better mpg is welcomed.
The starter on my company delivery van only lasted 47800 miles with S/S on. And this was the original starter. Costed about $1500 to fix, glad i didn't have to pay for that !
The starter of my manual died @~62000 miles. So i guess its more about luck / no luck.
Exactly
That's a lot of money to rewind a stator.
Yeah but the company saved $23.00 in gas.
First button I press when I drive a car with stop start is to turn it off
Another aspect is in the intense traffic environment of big cities, where an extra second before you can drive away can mean trouble in several ways.
Starter: “I’m tired of this grandpa…”
Auto start: WELL THAT’S TOO DAMN BAD
"now let's argue in the comments, shall we?" Now that's a man who knows how to use the algorithm right
Ah yes the technology that only makes sense when the traffic is so bad you're better off walking.. useful stuff.
That’s most cities in rush hour.
@yolo_burrito no that's just big citys, like the central hubs.. Most of the country doesn't have traffic tho on the bright side thanks to them all wanting to sit in traffic for hours
Almost every traffic light I've ever stopped at is longer than 7 seconds, what do you mean lol
ehm, its also illegal to walk when the pedestrian light is red.
As someone who lives in Bristol VA, this saves me so much fuel lmao I don't driva an expense vehicle, but the people thay do in downtown LOVE sitting at lights and or slowly pulling off to show off their ride😂
Auto start stop is the most hated function of modern cars. I turn the bloody thing OFF each time I start the car. Useless crap !!!
Here it is cold in winter and slightly less cold in the summer... Everyone turn of the start stop here because it uses more fuel when it is cold to do this stop start all the time. Also you need the heat from the engine to stay warm in the car and with the start stop on the engine end up never reaching normal operating temperature, which is bad for fuel consumption and bad for the engine.
The reason that start/stop is concerning to me is that it drastically increases the amount of time the engine spends with no oil pressure. Every time you start your engine it does at least a few revolutions before oil pressure comes up, and doing this 20+ times per drive instead of 1 has to have some kind of effect on bearing wear
Having the car shut off at a stop sign is infuriating.
Seems like they're getting better at it, where it's more brake pressure dependent (light, stay on, hard pressure, turn off). Seems smart.
@@EngineeringExplainedyeah, but sometimes if the radar detects the car in front of you crawl a bit forward (to then come to a stop again one meter closer to the lights) it thinks it’s time to restart and back to idle again…
"sh1t, i forgot to hit the button!"
@@EngineeringExplained Yep my corolla cross is like this giving u an option to activate or not
@@Axis089Again, too much unnecessary, expensive crap that will break and be impossible to diagnose, making repairs prohibitive for the average person.
I bought a small device to permanently save what setting I have, and I just set it to off. The onboard counter told me I saved about $7 of gas in a year at the cost of over 150 extra ignition sequences.
I used to work as a mechanic for GM and had an occasion when taking my lunch break, I saw one of our customers up the street stuck at a set of traffic lights, upon approaching him and looking at the car, realised his clutch pedal sensor had failed so the engine stopped but didn’t pick up a signal to start again 😅
I had a 2021 Chevy Malibu as a rental for a few months and the system allowed the car to have mileage nearly as good as my 2014 Focus which was in the shop. It's a difference you can tell pretty clearly. What I found got in the way of it doing its job, though, was my favorite trick of putting the car into neutral so I don't have to ride the brake prevented the system from doing the job.
It would be interesting to see how the start-stop system affects the longevity of the engine and whether the costs incurred can be offset by the saved gasoline.
Screw all that.. .. Just buy a plug-in Hybrid.
It has almost no effect on reliability. Starting an already warm engine is very easy on the starter and causes almost no wear on the engine since it is partially lubed and tolerances in cylinders/pistons and rings are always designed for engines at running temperature.
Even if the fuel savings are greater than the amount of the potential repairs, is it even worth it? In terms of headaches at the repair shop/dealership, being without a car for a few days etc.. to me, not worth it for a little less fuel burn
You will be at the repair shop way before your starter will be broken because of that, but yes it will wear a little bit faster @@trevorflegler6563
Correct answer
In Malaysia, most people deactivate the STOP IDLE function as the battery change cost more than the fuel by very large gap
What do you mean by battery charge cost?
@@fredthefish581 each time you start the car you drain a certain amount from the battery and the alt must recharge it
@@fredthefish581 CHANGE BATTERY, not CHARGE BATTERY
Yes, batteries cost a lot of money nowadays. Used to last 5yrs in most cars. Now? That’s cut in half.
Not change, but replace
The first thing I did when I got my 2020 CRV was disable the stop-start, it can be dangerous when trying to cross busy highways.
The car when it doesnt again:
it’s less a about saving fuel more about getting past government emission restrictions
No contradiction.
When people have to change alternator, starter, or battery 5 times sooner than on normal car, it not only costs more, but also pollutes more. All co2 saved on fuel is spend in faster aging parts.
@@Benoit-PierreThe government (at least in the US) doesn’t really care about maintenance related waste. It’s mostly about MPG and what’s coming out of that tailpipe. This is also a huge reason as to why they are pushing so hard for electric vehicles.
@@Rapidmp3yep yep its every where like this, i am from east europe.
It's probably just some form of this because I reckon the average stop is only 8 seconds. Or the median stop, maybe. But hey, that still saves the planet too, assuming the parts don't need to be replaced like crazy for it
@@Rapidmp3EVs still produce 50% less emissions during their lifetime than gas cars. Sure they produce more being produced mined and shipped etc.
Also
1kwh = 0.83kg Co2 emissions from grid
Tesla takes 100kw
Gas car takes 75 liters
Each liter = 2.3 kg co2
Do math.
There is also a system that does this without using the starter. When it stops, it stops the crankshaft with the #1 cylinder just past top dead center with a fuel-air charge already in position. To start, it fires the plug and away it goes.
Range Rover I think does this, their cars start back up incredibly quick.
Diesel
With a crank sensor, which all engines have for near 20 years now, they can do the same from any position. The number 1 position was the system from 20 years ago.
exactly
unfortunately this got 10 likes but ridiculous people crying about $2 savings over $450 in "repairings" got 1K likes
@@nievillisThere is no spark plug in diesel engines…
I love the etorque on my Ram. Stops and starts are so smooth.
Stuck in traffic on a hot day without air-conditioning so you can save a couple of bucks? No thanks. Idle away.
I do a lot of f150 starter motors,stop start batteries on everything(mostly jeeps and other Chrysler products) and jeep wrangler starters. So yeh thanks!! The tech works for me !
To be fair though Chrysler products are trash anyways.
Jeep was rated the worst most unreliable vehicle on the road today. "FACT"
Me getting 6.7mpg in my truck:
Interesting ☕️
I’ve been using it for almost 2 years now, and it adds a significant amount to my MPG for sure.
It's super annoying in the ford edge we have at work. When the car shuts off at the lights you can hear the cabin fans turn themselves down and makes it hot and stuffy.
Also a start/stop battery costs double,starter is probably more expensive too
This would save youu well over $100 in a year.
@@robertharris6092$300 a starter plus labor?
@@robertharris6092 and break a turbo while doing it that has high possibility of taking others part with it costing you several thousands, possibly totaling the car entirely.
The start/stop battery is seperate from your normal battery and its about half the size
Lets not forget the myrid of problems. Like in pacificas we've been back to the dealer for the same code. Auto start stop battery
The point of engine cut-off is not really to save fuel, but to reduce emissions.
It's exactly the same thing. If you burn more fuel you will have more emissions. So in the end its the same point
exactly it was made for big cities with a lot of traffic lights where emissions are important.. it’s the mass… an idling engine consumes up to 2 litres per HOUR.. so it’s really inefficient fuel saving but in emission saving it does the job
save fuel = reduce emissions
Saving fuel and reducing emissions is not the same thing!! In saving fuel the goal is to spend less, therefore you will be pissed if after the "saving" you have to replace the starter often... But since the goal is to reduce emissions, you are expecting to spend more money into it without any issue (see as an example the cost of "bio" things in the market)
@@tachy635 I didnt talk about money saving. I said about fuel saving which is exactly the same with emissions. You can't save emissions while in the same time you burn more fuel. So fuel economy = emissions economy
You’re saving some gas but hot engine oil is quite thin. When the engine shuts off, the oil pressure goes to zero and the oil drains out of the valve train and oil journals. Once started, the oil takes a bit of time to get pumped back into those areas. When this happens over and over, premature wear of cam lobes, piston rings, crank shaft bearings, etc. will result.
Click and Clack the Tappet brothers (CarTalk) actually talked about this one time. and i remember them saying that anything above 8seconds is when turning off the engine at a stop light is worth it.
those guys were literally geniuses. and i miss them.
My 06 v6 Accord Hybrid had that feature and it never bothered me. I drove that car to 285,000 miles before I traded it. Never a major problem with it.
That's fine for a hybrid, it was probably using the main motor to start stop which made it smooth and not so any damage
That’s cause it’s an actual hybrid, so it has a beefy AC motor which restarts the engine. On start-stop vehicles though, or “mild hybrid” vehicles as they are sometimes called (it’s a misleading name in my opinion, because with that logic, every gas car with a starter motor is a mild hybrid), the starting is usually done by a relatively small DC motor. The extra stresses on this small motor compared to a starter motor in a regular car will often kill it prematurely.
lol cuz it's a hybrid... it was using the electric motor to propell at low speeds, not kicking the engine on and off while crawling in traffic
@@beanapprentice1687 the starter motors equipped in these cars is different than a regular starter motor, way beefier to be able to withstand the frequent usage.
@@darkrulier There's a lot more to these systems than a beefier starter. It's the extra electronics that control the system that will bust your wallet when they fault out or fail.
That doesn't even take into account that a lot of starter replacements aren't a 1 hour job anymore. It's half a day plus in labor on some vehicles.
This is a handy feature on manual cars because you can control when it shuts off by using the clutch. This way it doesn’t shut off the engine every second you come to a stop like with automatics.
There could be a button.
I get automation, but this is just like lights that turn off by themselves. I can do away with a remote switch.
Yea in my manual transmission the start/stop system will only work for the second time when the car travels a few meters so that the engine doesnt stop when you move just a inch
I have manual mk3 focus. Clutch pedal negates the system AND I also have a toggle button on the dash.
@@JonatasAdoM don't most cars with start/stop have a button to disable it?
How do you want to stop without using the clutch? Putting the gear out and clutch back in before you come to full stop?
I shutter at the thought of our Honda, Pilot’s starter going out. Not just situational, like at a red light, but the cost to repair/replace.
I wonder how good it works in Arizona on summer at peak hours...🤔
What you have to think is that modern engines uses a very small amount of fuel when idling, so even tho the engine being stopped does save fuel after about 7 seconds (on a specific car the reasearch was based on), the amount of fuel being saved is very small. You are going to save a lot more fuel by cruising 5kph slower or just by being more smooth during acceleration.
For reference, the GS1200 I ride gives the fuel consuption in litres/hour when I am at a stop. Idling, the engine uses something like 0.9L/hour. And note that it is a performance engine, 1170cc, 125hp, revs to 9k rpm, 1000rpm
4%-8.7%
@@electricpaisy6045 a very quick search will show that it is indeed 27% in Brazil
+1 for smooth acceleration. Smooth braking, smooth acceleration, and smooth cornering. That’s the way to do it. Not only will the car last longer and be cheaper to run, it’s also a lot safer.
@@ytaltacc8008 I was talking about the amount of fuel savings
@@electricpaisy6045 I see. But what if you spend most of your time on the highway? Or where you live there isnt a whole lot of start stop traffic? It could be way less than 4%
Everyone advertising how you can save fuel but nobody actually does the math:
- how much you save per month/year
- how much tear and wear it causes which will then backfire at your little saving
Once you clear everything you'll find out that you'd be probably better off without the whole mechanism that makes your purchase price higher and service bills too. But hey, why bother. They say I can save fuel (or literally any other statement), so it has to be great!
I just wonder how often spark plugs fowl out and the strain on the serpentine belt and battery drain considering it takes more energy to get everything back in motion vs having the alt keeping the battery charged
I think it also depends on fuel prices. In most of Europe it is almost certainly a way to save money in the long run, even if there are higher maintenance costs.
Because it's not to save fuel, it's to reduce emissions!!
@@tachy635 reducing the longevity of the engine is just a nice bonus for car manufacturers
If you do the real world math you barely save any gas at all, you save enough gas over the course of a month to go an extra 2 miles if you’re on the highway and less than a mile in the city. It’s such a pointless system
The key: What? dont mind me...
YOU are your start stop.
Although it's been around a while now.. it still gets me to look every now and then when the Modern Car next to me, suddenly starts..
I daily a 68 Dodge Dart...
Cheers from Southern California 🇺🇸
The alternator is fighting for its life after 30k miles😂
Actually the battery suffers more in today's cars due to emission friendly charging!
140k miles still going strong. Probably near the max Chevy says theirs lasts. 300k+
The starter and battery are what would be under the most strain. The alternator would just be doing exactly what it already was the entire time. It's not doing any extra work
@@LoshJysic Yes the alternator would only be doing extra work at high RPMs, while the starter and especially the battery get the brunt of the load, especially in cold weather, especially (3rd time, I know) when making short hops and stopping the engine in traffic. It's worse for diesels. I wonder why they felt that turning on headlights as an automatic feature BEFORE the engine cranks while the battery might be dying on you was a good thing.
Remember, guys, most engine wear happens at startups.
Cold engine startups.
Not necessarily, if the engine was just shut off a few seconds ago the oil is still primed, if its been sitting all night everythings dry and its straight metal on metal for a few seconds..
i think the oil is still in the correct places if you've been standing for 10 seconds
@@theannihilator665 It's still causes excessive wear compared to running the engine. GM engineer is already on record saying they changed the main bearing to deal with the excessive wear, so it's a known issue.
Yep I've got that noted
It’s honestly really cool that that study even exists
it's all fun and games till that starter gives up on you
Start/stop should be ILLEGAL. I almost got killed when my car stopped and couldn't restart in the middle of a highway intersection.
What country u from that got intersection stop on HIGHWAY ?
@@janlombard6712 USA. Taking left across 4 lane divided highway at a light, you have to pull forward across the first two lanes and wait for traffic to clear so you can go left. Got stuck in middle as highway traffic began to move again. We have different kinds of highways, some of them are limited access, some are full access. Probably your terminology is different.
@@janlombard6712you are confusing freeway with highway
Happen to my wife
@@chipcook6646 Is she ok?
also if the vehicle have previously ran over a coupleof miles ,in the turbo charged engine scenario the turbo needs time to be cooled so idling will be a better option before turning of the engine or u may need to charge the complete turbo assembly
The stop/start delay causes a domino effect at traffic lights. If you have to wait for every car to restart, you'll never make it thru a traffic light in rush hour traffic.
Yes, definitely consider the cost of starter replacement when using this option!
There are pros and cons just like anything in this world. Start/stop systems do save fuel, and that’s been proven by numerous entities at this point. It also promotes longer catalyst life when a car idles less and helps the DI engines get less carbon build up on the intake side of things. The negatives to start/stop technology are that in the summer your AC compressor stops running when the engine cuts off at a stop so you get intermittent warm air bursts if you’re at a long red light or in stopped traffic. There is also a lot more wear on your starter as well as the starter and ignition relays because they are being used significantly more than in a standard vehicle without start/stop technology. There really isn’t any difference between the starter and relay systems used on these newer vehicles compared to older models that don’t have stop/start, so instead of lasting ~150k+ you may only get an ~80-100k service life out of the same components.
As an engineer I have often stated that all your theories must silently bow before empirical data.
The referenced study is just that
Sadly, solid data is no match for uninformed opinions these days.
As a lifelong mechanic, dealing with disastrous engineering in the real world every day is all the evidence I need.
More times than not, the end cost to consumers far outweighs any perceived benefit.
@@shiftfocus1 I have a 2008 VW Jetta I'm nursing at 240000km. The starter motor is its only fault. Guess I should put all the strain on the weakest link in the chain to save approximately $200 a year?
Only a sith (retard) deals in absolutes. No IQ requirement for the internet, I guess.
I agree with the OP
The importance of empirical data vs analytical data is crucial when it comes to purchasing/usage decisions no doubt.
When I had to have my 2016 f150 serviced, I was given a loaner 2018 with this feature. I wasn't told anything about it. I was stopped for a light, and while waiting to go, I needed to turn the wheels and couldn't. When I returned the truck, I told the dealer about it. That's when I first heard about it. I don't like it. It felt unsafe because of the slow response.
Just a note some vehicles have an off switch for this feature. Problem is you have to push it every time you start the car.
Good, now all those savings can be invested in a new starter once that dies more quickly :D
And all of the fuel savings ends up costing you:.. a replacement battery. Congrats😂
And a new starter motor and relays $$$
do you know what you're talking about? 2012 1.4 diesel with stop start, 1 new battery over 12 years and original starter. @@bluevalkyrie2517
Wait till you guys hear about capacitors
Start stop doesnt use the starter its a smarter technology by sparking the fuel mixture in the cylinder.
No capacitors needed.
And especially not replacing a new battery.
Batteries don't charge, or at best insignificantly, at idle, which is why you can't keep a battery charged by starting the engine and idling every couple of weeks.
Save £5 of fuel a year but replace the battery that cost 3 times as much every 2 years 👌
and the starter
That's the cheap part. Just wait until the electronics that control the system start faulting out. Good luck diagnosing that without the dealership. You can bet those components will cost triple what a battery or starter costs. Oh, and that battery has to be programmed to your car, which isn't free either.
You don't know how batteries work. Your alternator recharges the battery
If the battery dies every 2 years, something else is wrong. My toyota with start stop is now 13 years old, runs on the 2nd battery first starter.
@@zjones9876wow. who knew 🙄
I'm not saying my car is old but I don't have stop-start technology. I have ”stop-why won't you restart" technology 😂
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the wear and tear on the battery!
A friend of mine did the stats over a couple of years and he said the money saved on fuel was minimal.
"let's argue in the comments"
reported for GASlighting
I see what you did there. Trying to spark a debate
I see what you did there. Trying to spark a debate
Everyone's gangster until the car doesn't start up again😂
Stolen comment
Thank you I always wondered!
From what I understand, the start/stop feature (my car has it) isn't to save _you_ fuel and money, but rather was a workaround, around the emmisions restrictions handed to car manufacturers.
I wish there were some more tests done on long term reliability of this. Features like shutting the engine at a light and turning off cylinders definitely help the environment but won't matter when the car is in the junkyard.
Getting 5% better fuel economy might not be worth the strain on the battery and starting components
Don't get me started on cylinder cutoff systems. I haven't seen a single reliable one ever.
What sucks is when companies make it impossible to turn off without pressing that button every time you get in. Only way to permanently get rid of it on my dad's truck is to unplug the module but that also disables cruise control
Have you tried holding the button down for 5 seconds? That disables it until next time you shut the engine off, in most cars. (some also remember it next time you drive, some do not that's about 50/50)
@@AIRDRACwhere i live in Germany it's the law that it's always activated when you start the car.
You can deactivate it and drive as long as you want but when you restart the engine it's activated again.
Every car has conditions that need to be met before start&stop can activate. My car luckily has fault code in central electronics that's preventing the start&stop from activating and I'm not clearing that code out. It's a diesel with EGR blocked off and last model before DPF became normal on these.
@@AIRDRAC I didn't really type correctly. That's why I said every time you get in. Yeah I can do that but that still sucks and I always forget
In small towns where you are stopped for a few seconds it's actually really annoying.
But bigger cities I totally get it.
Now let’s argue in the comments shall we 😂😂😂
My new Corolla hatch is a hybrid/petrol EV so it’s half half but the awesome thing is it gives you an efficiency score when you arrive to your destination! Lead foot 43% and below efficiency, average acceleration 55 to 70% efficiency but nice smooth driving 80% snd above.
Done a few tests and with local and suburb driving with minor highway driving in the mix I swear after filling a full tank and resetting the speedometer I drove 157km went back to the survo to fill up and it only used 5 litres of fuel! After another try with a little more aggression it calculated to be 38km per litre of fuel! That’s insane. My next test will be granny driving
My car would need to wait 2.5 seconds before the engine stop. Most of the time I just stop for 1-2 seconds and immediatelly take off. It just shut down to immediately start again. It's enerving!
I borrowed someone's car like this and if it turned off I would creep to make it turn back on and after that it won't turn off again
Stops at stop light
Engine turns off
AC turns off
Middle of July in Texas
Car interior bursts into flames
"But it's good for the environment" they say... I rode the short bus and can figure things out better than that 😂. Isn't it amazing how our modern world is ruled by the retarded class?
That starter wear has gotta be crazy on these start stop deals.
I think there's another point to keep in mind, althought I think it is covered with these systems; but with older cars, when the engine stops the oil stops pumping into it, and if stays iddle more than needed, when you start it again the pistons are not fully lubricated, causing friction and damaging them
These starters used in start/stop are special and cost about $400. If youre a self mechanic youll think "Oh, thats not so bad." But, the car counts how many times the engine has started and the check engine light sends a code at about 400,000 starts (about the time the starter will go out and your warranty will probably expire just in this timeframe too). To get the car to restart the count it takes more than just a fancy scan tool. Only dealerships [should] have the computer to restart the start count if you don't want the car dinging the check engine light. In conclusion, youll have to pay more than the $400 starter for the work to be done. Will the fuel savings over 400,000 starts save you over $400-$800 for a starter replacement?
How often to you start your car? Even if you drive only 1km per start that’s 400.000 km,
@MerseburgerCompany in cities you could have 10 lights in 1 kilometer so if you are always in a dense city it could be as little as 40 000km
this is a big reason why older cars will always be superior to modern vehicles. there is an opportunity cost that gets bigger as you go further back in time, but I'd argue that the late 1980s through the late 2010s is the best car era to ever occur so far in terms of practicality and reliability.
@@MerseburgerCompanyOften City driving would be 10 stops per kilometer. So NOT 400,000 but 40,000
Let's work on the 'real tests' from the video and go with a 5% fuel saving. 400,000 start stops, let's just roll with 200,000 KM.
What's a larger car do these days, 12KM per litre of fuel? In Australia it's about $2 a litre or for 200K a total cost of about $34,000.
For these made up numbers you would save around $1,700 in fuel. Now calculate your actual start stops per 1KM of driving and recalculate, you may save more or less then $1,700.
But will it be enough for the replacement starter AND dealer cost to install and reset? Will the start stop wear and tear be worse for the engine long term and end up costing you more?
The smarter move is to learn to not stop if you can, look ahead, plan ahead, try to coast more because the real cost in fuel is when you accelerate and if you can help it, moving, even slowly, is still a better cost saving long term than anything else.
What about wear components. Like lack of oil to the turbos. Is that something to consider. And do the pros outweigh the cons?
Since the engine was just running, oil is not an issue. You are starting a warm engine. Oiling can be a concern if the engine is cold and has not been started for several hours. This is because the oil is thicker when it's cold, and also all the oil has drained to the sump leaving just a thin film of oil over everything.
A regular starter gets the engine spinning at 200-500 rpm’s and the spark is always there for the engine combustion to take over.
A hybrid uses the large electric motor as the starter. So it spins the motor at 1000-2000 rpm and lets it spin for a bit before it powers the spark plugs.
It's only in cars so they can meet the regulations.
It's bad for your engine, battery and also for your starter motor.
All of this = more profit for the manufacturer and dealership.
In my scenario. My commute, I’m on a Hwy cruising at 55mph. Then I come to a stoplight, that at times doesn’t register me. So im my mind. The turbos are still rotating. And If they are still rotating with no new oil supply since the engine is off. Would that cause premature wear because of lack of oil. Or is that so minuscule to even worry about.
You always want your car running just in case you have to drive away
7 seconds? Wow. I read somewhere a few years ago that it was about 30. Engines have really improved since then.
Starting is one of the most stressful moments for engines.
Not when it is fully warmed up. Then acceleration is much more stressful. Engines fail from accelerating too hard, not from starting.
I really like the engine stop of my PHEV butbit also has a motor/generator, which is similar but beefier than a normal starter. When it restarts the drive motor give the car it's first little push to get moving and then the engine turns over and syncs without the tradional start up rev that you have when you turn a gas vehicle on. Since it's basically seamless it just sounds like when you push the oedal the engine was just really quiet andbthen started reving up as you push the pedal.
In most gas start/stop vehicles you still seem to get the traditional start rev and then engage the gearing so there is lots of noise and then a slight delay before you move, which just seems exceptionally annoying for the tiny efficiency boost so in that case I would juat turn it off.
to anyone wondering about the starter, there is a short on this about the starter on start/stop car. forgot about the car etc but the starter was able to give out over 350,000 starts!!!!!!
If you're so concern about saving fuel, put the car in neutral, turn off engine, get out of the car & push it along until traffic is clear then start the engine to continue your trip
My wife’s car will shutdown when you come to a stop, but turn back on as you shift from Drive to Park. I hate it.
Is it from Drive to Park, or is it Drive to Neutral to Reverse to Park?
imagine all the unlikely but nonetheless possible situations where going from a stop to a rapid reverse would make the difference of avoiding a collision or not. The annoyance of it turning back on when shifting through those gears on your way to park is outweighed by the need for reverse gear being accessible at a moment's notice.
My mazda 6 does this also, and the engine turns on if I open the car door if I don 't press the start button after it stops the engine itself.
Especially annoying when I put the car in park to open a gate so it turns off, turns back on at the open of the door then turns off after shutting the door if I don't remember to press the button :/
My Kia Soul does the exact same thing. I almost always have the stop-start feature off though. I sometimes turn it on briefly if I'm coming up to a stop that I know will be long, but otherwise, I try to have it off and never use it.
Ford tech here. The tech is pretty cool, but it creates a few issues, 1 obviously, your starter will go out much quicker, some manufacturers beef up the starter to compensate but not all. 2 people have been known to have their engine simply not kick back on, and they have to start it up again manually.
You wear out your starter and your battery hell of a lot faster too
Start stop engines certainly saved fuel. But in hot cities Bangkok, Dubai, Manila, Singapore engines will need to be kept idling the for the car to stay cool -unless it is at night.
The money you save by the engine shutting off at stoplights will more than be offset by replacing starters and batteries more often, not to mention additional wear and tear on engine bearings. A solution looking for a problem.
No it’s not. The starters in these cars have lifespans that are longer than their crankshafts.
That's why I like Honda's IMA hybrid system. It has an electric assist motor to help you go up hills. It uses the Lithium Ion hybrid battery and starts the engine via the electric assist motor on the crankshaft. There is still a starter but is only used when the hybrid battery is super low, or when it's well below freezing outside.
@@TurdFerguson43 is that* sarcasm because the cranks are losing their floatation of oil and basically being dry started? 😂
Any evidence to support your claim?
@@FastBowtie388they solved that one too. Physical redesign, materials science for scratch resistance, and they worked with oil companies to improve oil up to snuff.
Until your starter burns out and your at a green light and people are honking at you😂
istg i had this question since 2008 or smth, thank you!
Arguing for fun, even though I’m also right ;)
Start/stop in a vehicle without some form of electric drive is a safety hazard, with the safety risk increasing the degree of power lost. An electric drive with petrol range extender has no increased risk, while a drivetrain that simply has a slightly larger battery and starter that uses the starter to give the combined drive an extra 10-15HP carries the greatest risk.
This risk window occurs when a stopped vehicle needs to make a sudden and un-telegraphed move, such as getting out of the way of a vehicle which has otherwise lost control. Instead of the driver releasing the brake and engaging the accelerator, or even having to engage the first gear in their manual transmission car, they also need to wait for the engine to start before the driver can initiate that same sequence.
Since the fuel consumption of a dead driver is calculated as 0 miles / infinite fuel that is necessarily the worst fuel consumption rate possible (note my tongue placed firmly in my cheek). This also has the unfortunate, albeit rare, side effect of killing the driver, but Humanity must suffer for Humanity to survive 😂
P.S. it’s also a very disconcerting feeling this occur, as you try to accelerate with nothing happening at all, only for your car to suddenly leap forward as the engine finally engages the torque converter.