MauLer and Star Wars Theory chat about Andor, Ahsoka & the state of Star Wars with Will & SWS66
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- Опубликовано: 20 сен 2024
- Basically what the title says ^
Star Wars Theory - / @starwarstheory
DiamondFigs/Will - / @diamondfigs
StarWarsSith66 - / @starwarssith66
Had a fun time, thanks for coming on. More to come
Thoroughly enjoyable discussion. Fantastic to see.
Very enjoyable to watch all of you to chat
I myself am at a point with Star Wars where all I want is for the characters to be respected and have cool fights. It would be perfect if script had time to be written well (and actually was written well) but at least be respectful even if shallow
Thank you for inviting him or coming down for that conversation in the first place. I hope you two meet up some time again, this was a very pleasant conversation to watch and listen too :)
This was so charming to see two points of view being shared and discussed and new ideas discovered.
Thank you all for doing this and hopefully we can see this again
Glad to see that a civil discussion can still take place on the internet especially when discussing different views on Stars Wars. Thank you!
I love the body language at the start when Mauler joins, all three guys are on their guard and defensive. Theory has a subtle dig at not being able to talk to Mauler face to face. The guy in the top right is crossing his arms the entire time(a defensive posture) and all three are ready to do battle. Then Mauler just immediately jumps in to finding a commonality between them, and he's off and running. Just a master class in how to deescalate and charm people who are looking at you as if you are the enemy. They came thinking they were in for a fight, by the end everyone is having a fun, enjoyable, and thought provoking discussion. Brilliant stuff Mauler, truly.
"ah yes, the negotiator"
@@ghoulsome9483 “You’re longer than I expected.”
This MauLer crossover will make a fine addition to my collection
Seems to have an INFJ personality from everything I've observed about him. Incredibly aware of the feelings of others and is always very respectable and non-threatening in the way he presents his arguments. The entire time they are talking he is able to challenge Theory's opinions without invalidating them at any point which allows for some really insightful and productive conversation and debate. Thoroughly enjoyable and I hope he comes on again at some point.
@@isaac_paechinfj my ass broo😂😂😂 just a normal person, you dont need those newly invented labels
The fact that Filoni is compared to a "half eaten donut in a dingy alley by the dumpster" by Theory is just hilarious because in many ways, it's harsher than anything Mauler has said since its coming from a far more positive guy
He didn’t compare Filoni the person to that. Just what he’s currently creating. We all appreciate Filoni because of his work on TCW, Rebels, and Tales of the Jedi. We know that Filoni understands Star Wars. Most of us think he is hamstrung by KK.
I honestly don't understand how Filoni fucked up so bad. I really don't. *All he had to to was pick up the pace a bit & have Ahsoka act like, you know, AHSOKA, only older.* Rosaria has already played something like that in Night Nurse. WHAT a ball drop. And how STUPID was it not to have a 20m intro summing up Rebels. What a massive F up all around.
I think the way that it’s see is that filoni is a half eaten donut meanwhile jj and rian are poison. But to mauler both groups are poison.
@@MistbornTaylor agreed
@@umiluv right, his work.
I love how Mauler is always so polite even when surrounded by people he disagree with
A lot of people nowadays really forgot the concept of still being respectful and friendly to people they disagree with. Lately it's been "agree with everything I believe or else I hate you".
If you watch it they don't disagree really on much
"Welcome to real life"
It really goes to show how little tribal pockets of the internet develop and misrepresenting supposed opponents can warp our views of people we haven't spoken to first hand. The happy truth is most of the time you'll find, the things you actually agree on vastly outweigh the things you don't, and finding those commons grounds through good faith chats and manners is such an easy way to make friends regardless of your divergences.
But that's boring and doesn't get drama clicks so booooo.
Complete contrast with Rags
I'm glad MauLer is the type to walk into a 1 v 3 "debate" totally chill without being defensive about it.
I obviously only know him from the streams, but he's always been really chill.
Take notes: this is a de-escalation tactic and valuable interviewer skill. Do not think of your "opponent" but your friend who has a different interest.
Really wasn't much a debate. More just them getting to know each other. They all hit it off really well.
@@morganseppy5180 he also takes effort to clearly identify the others' points, and agrees with them whenever he can
@@sztallone415 and lets them know he disagrees but doesn't force the issue, if there's a more important issue to focus on. "Choose your battles."
Longman making friends is wholesome.
The internet is slowly starting to realize he's not a racist crazy weirdo.
He's super chill.
@@NephetssingsTheyre ruining his great reputation lol
@@Daemondog How dare they. We need Wolf back, gotta put that reputation back where it belongs.
@@panther-nk2hnwell.... Watch the ending for saw x
@@panther-nk2hn I mean, yeah i miss wolf. Also yeah we need to go back to being the hatemongers of the toxic brood! 🦏🥛
This crossover is proof we are living in the multiverse
We've entered the endgame
No, This is the clone wars!!!!!
Absofuckinglutely!
As foretold by the spiders.
@@madambutterfly1997 cringe
Mauler finally gets straight talk from Theory so everyone knows where he stands. They’re pretty much in agreement but with very different tones, perspectives, and approaches to their commentary.
Did you watch it on 4x speed or something? Jesus christ
@@antiphon000did you?
this whas live streamed on star wars theory channel like 18 hours ago@@antiphon000
@@SuperAllelujah Valid question, video released 1 hour ago, the commenter made it 1 hour ago. They couldn't have garnered the contents of the entire conversation in less than 5 minutes so it seems ridiculous to make a statement like the OP's.
@@antiphon000I watched it on SWT channel yesterday
One clear difference between Mauler and the 3 others is that their perspective when a flaw is pointed out is “yeah…I would have wanted it done differently, but this is how the story goes” whereas Mauler sees these flaws as delegitimizing the work. In other words their disbelief is still suspended, whereas the flaw has shattered Mauler’s. He is now fully cognizant that we’re not in the Star Wars universe, we’re looking at words on a page. The illusion is broken.
A perfect example is when discussing character actions. Mauler sees an inconsistency and thinks “that character wouldn’t do this, the author of the story has made an error” and the 3 others see the same flaw as “odd that the character would behave that way, but alright”.
Yeah that's been something I notice about fan mentality. I used to be that way to a degree with Marvel because that's what I grew up with (thank God they never fucked with the Captain, my captain).
There was a time when certain writing choices would devalidate a character like making Thor a comedian for Ragnarok because it's "how he copes with pain" or something contrived like that. In fact it's a decision that only truly was attempted to be rationalized that way in his talk with Rocket in Infinity War. They also made Drax a laughing simpleton instead of the cold badass who didn't understand figurative speech he started out as.
There's other examples but basically I didn't pay attention to these things at the time because at the time Marvel was still "great" and all powerful and I was still a fan.
My turning point where the fan in me died and the movie enthusiast was born was the ending of Wandavision and finding out about Dr Strange being excluded because of mansplaining, and revealed to me by the seemingly trustworthy and reliable legend that Kevin Feigie supposedly was...
On one hand I honestly have some respect for how sturdily the ppl in this video can keep the fan mindset of accepting the content as canon while knowing some of its flawed. Like they were born for Star Wars and nothing else, and I genuinely admire it.
The way you described it as there belief still being suspended was very accurate and kinda eye-opening I feel, so thank you.
I guess since I don't think of these things like a fan anymore, I can just mentally bypass the entirety of FATWS as entirely inferior work that I don't need to accept as part of Steve's legacy and canon lol
SWT wants good food but eats the bad food anyway because he’s starving. Mauler busts into the kitchen to ask wtf is wrong with the chefs.
I feel like its highlighted best by their example.
It feels like this trio sees every star wars as standalone in a "play book setting", One of the consistent things mauler and crew has pointed out is "This is not only bad but completely breaks the internal logic of the world, which will retroactively hurt other things" where as these three sees it as "Yeah this was bad, but oh well atleast we saw lightsabers, lets just not take any as canon"
My friend. We call that coping. Those 3 men are in a massive cope, they rely on star wars so they don't have to work a real job. They cope.
Mauler is so damn good at carrying a conversation.
Gonna say that I’m very happy that MauLer & Theory took the discussions in a respectful manner, & it’s all that needs to happen when it comes to debates like this. Was a really fascinating discussion. Take care, mates.
Some of the people in the live stream chat we’re expecting a grand fight/Debate and were complaining they weren’t getting it
@@bumblebee1300Idk why, that was never going to be the intention with a discussion like this
@@chuckleshelicopterwigwamjo6305 i remember rags and MauLer being very direct with what they thought of SWTheory in their Ahsoka viewing.
I wouldn't call it a debate; debates are adjudicated in some form.
A bit as others are commenting about live-chat, wanting their theater (the "debate team" concept).
And that's why debates "suck" and/or are useless, but are romanticized over topical/scholarly discussion. That adjudicating of debate undermines or prevents forming and organizing and categorizing different information to be used or consider as appropriately or within proper scope, etc.
@@chuckleshelicopterwigwamjo6305 it’s cause some people think mauler goes into a show JUST to hate it but they’ve never watch the content where he praises things
This is what MauLer is good at. The people who throw a bunch of labels his way don’t take 1/100 the time and effort listening to and understanding his takes as he puts into having real, cordial, constructive dialogues.
If Mauler doesn't want to watch 100 episodes of clone wars at least twice before telling us the show is shit then his haters don't have to watch a second of his 8 hour rants either.
@@holocron_vfx It's still unfortunate though because he's missing out on some of the best Star Wars content ever. If he's got the time and patience to repeatedly watch/tear apart awful movies and shows like The Last Jedi, The Rise of Skywalker, etc., then surely he can actually take the time to watch shows that actually have good Star Wars content like The Clone Wars, Rebels, Bad Batch, Tales of the Jedi, etc.
Longman….good?
@@wytho3751 that's impossible
@@holocron_vfxhas he said the clone wars is shit? Just in this conversation he said he didnt like what he saw (which 1 season maybe a bit of season 2)
I think the world would be a better place if people just talked to each other, challenged each others' viewpoints cordially, and found common ground like in this chat. Good stuff!
Amen to that
It requires a level of social and emotional intelligence that unfortunately most people dont have. Not their fault they just never learnt about it, but it is frustrating in discussions when it is really evident
I disagree shouting is funny to watching at
@@quintusfabiusmaximus8700 But ultimately the price paid for your entertainment is not worth it. I'd rather lose this form and entertainment and live in a more peaceful world overall where people are respectful even if they disagree.
We don't need more Az in this world. We need more MauLer.
Thats what it was like before obummer.
Theory what you’re missing isn’t more lightsabers or Jedi, Disney Star Wars has more of those than ever. More Skywalkers, too. What you and I crave is heroism. We want to see real, we’ll-written characters face insurmountable odds, fail, and then try harder. Good writing- that’s what DSW is missing.
No, literally what he wants is lightsabers and Jedi.
Nah, he just sounds like a clown who needs someone jingling keys, or he gets bored.
perhaps@@donkeysaurusrex7881. But he'd be a lot less bored if the story was plain ole hero's journey instead of the Her-oz "journey" where she finds out just how like BESTEST EVARRRR she is & has always been & how boys are dumb. "Put a chick in it and make her gay! And lame." and invincible.
Thats a part, but I think most people miss the filmography and the cinematic strategies involved. These features along with the narative is what made the force and lightsabers cool, not shiny lore and special effects
@@hoos3014 Yep. Dude is literally "I SAW A LIGHTSABER! THIS IS A STAR WAR!!"
I always applaud Mauler for entering these sorts of conversations, that could become heated and controversial, but instead taking the opportunity to be respectful and constructive.
George Lucas gets $4 billion and everyone gets a newfound appreciation for the prequels.
Dude's a genius.
And the people who got shamed for loving it also came out of the woodwork, and actually got to speak their mind about the thing they loved
I always appreciated the Prequels because no matter what you think of the quality of the movies. Their world building created *THE BEST* Star War's video games we ever got. Republic Commando, Bounty Hunter, Attack of the Clones the game, and some of Battlefront 1-2's best maps were Prequel maps.
His writing actually has some ingenious stuff going on. There's more to them than meets the eye or ear.
@@liamphibia barely.
Ehhhh, nooo noooo nooooo. I just now can easily say there's only 2 good star wars movies, and non of them were made after 1980
I will always be impressed by your ability to walk with all sides and have respectful conversations with people no matter their opinions
MauLer on political streams is a treat, because he basically says what I think. That kind of reasonableness obviously means he mostly avoids political streams, tho, which is probably better anyway.
Yes. If people saw these IPs as products rather than a literal part of them and their lives, there would be more of this even keeled discourse. Theory describing being deprived and hungry in the beginning highlights my point, watch or do not, you must not tie the quality of an entertainment product to your mental stability.
@@averymasterswell said
@@averymastersI don’t know about this. Sounds like a way to live a passionless life.
Mauler and company want Star Wars to be good. They will heap praise upon Andor and suggest people watch it to grow the fanbase for it. They don’t want to be telling us “oh only one show is worth your time”.
Star Wars theory is just a sheep. Sheep eat grass and don’t know any better. They will sit on that fence until the next product comes out, then they will be back in the Disney pasture eating grass.
@@joffy9373 Thank you.
MauLer won’t stop until he’s taken over the entire podcast-verse!
"He's toooooo lonnnnnnnnnnnng... must resist.... noooooooooooooooo"
Get Jenny Nicholson on the line, we're gonne have a crossover!
We’re truly in the longest timeline
Who gives a shit if Tony Gillroy is a Star Wars fan. I’ll take a well written, well directed and believable performances over a guy who wants to play show and tell with his favorite Star Wars dollies
I remember listening to an EFAP (I forgot which one) where they are watching a critique of Andor (which was full of bad takes I might add) and the dude in the video negatively criticized Tony Gilroy for having to browse Wookiepedia to familiarize himself with the lore and characters. Like why is that a bad thing?? Dude cared enough to actually research the source material because he actually takes pride in his work and wanted to respect the franchise. That's more effort than what JJ, Rian, and Filoni put in COMBINED.
The irony = Filoni is pretty well-suited to being Tony's Best Star Wars Boy on set. Drew Karpyshyn (Bioware, KoTOR & SWtOR) would be MUCH better since he can actually write, but Filoni would suffice.
@@theminister1154Just promote him as the "Executive Showrunner" and leave the writing to someone like Karpyshyn, or Zahn. Let them run the show.
@@Ch0c0lateChimp yeah I saw the same episode. I suppose Filoni, Favreau, and JJ could do a Wikipedia search on how to direct and write to illustrate how much they care about their craft, and though that would be pointless and idiotic, if it could help them they’d be too lazy and stupid to do that much, because for them story and acting are insignificant in comparison with having cartoon characters done live action or just throwing iconic characters that someone else created on the screen.
A good example of this would be Irvin Kershner. He was not a Star Wars buff, yet he directed the best movie in the IP. If you are a good writer and do a little research into who the characters are and their motivations, you can write good Star Wars.
MauLer is that quiet voice of reason we always need.
As much as I like people like Az and Nerdrotic, they can be a little reactionary.
mauler is like the only one from that crowd i consistently agree with cause his takes are really well structured most of the time and very rational. people with good criticism who just start screaming after a point and devolving into bigotry will never manage to convince me of their point, but the way mauler approaches these things is just really cool and convincing
I really dislike Nerdrotic and Az. MauLer and Fringy are completely different breed in my mind
They're not perfect. Terriers.
@@lewispascoe1145 Terriers?
Tbf Az and nerdrotic are over exaggerating for comedic effect and a bit of catharsis for fan frustration, they lean into that niche. The issue is when people label their reactions as standard fan reaction.
Mauler is actually interacting with folks and articulates why we are frustrated. They both have a place. One for entertainment, one for actual dialogue.
Amazing conversation. Didn’t really care for Theory after seeing some of his takes and me just thinking he was an apologist, but I gotta say I think I’ve gained a lot more respect for him after this conversation.
I don't hold that against him, lots of people are apologists for things they like.
It paints his fanboyism as a genuine desire to return to the way Star Wars made him feel as an impressionable child, which is totally fair. Instead of just proclaiming love of Star Wars as a brand for its own sake.
I think he is an apologist for SW, but it doesn't really matter. If he likes it, I don't really care.
SWT’s perspective has always been pro Star Wars given he’s the largest SW channel on YT. It doesn’t help his channel to blackpill everyone.
@@2dextreem I think that's exactly what he wants and projects. IMO
"People become less cringe when you just talk to them."
--Bilbonius Bagginius
I think not comparing Disney Wars with Lucas Wars is a mistake. Disney themselves promised to stay true to Lucas' vision and it was all a lie. This is the bed they made so it's more than logical to hold them to their own words.
You can not hold a liar to their word. You just stop trusting them.
Bbbbbbbut the force is female
When I read “it was all a lie” I couldn’t help but think of Heels screaming “it was all a lie!” In Jurassic World Fallen Kingdom
It would be easier to separate if Disney were not butchers.
They could care less about the timeline and the characters/narratives of the originals while aping every surface level detail imaginable.
It's not separate enough to think of it as it's own thing artistically and not faithful enough to be a continuation
If Disney Wars took place in a separate time period and didn't make use of the classic characters, it might make sense to view it as being separate from OG Star Wars, but Disney keeps adding things that change the meaning, implications and context of the events of the Original Trilogy, so we really can't view them as separate things. If you accept that Disney Wars is canon, then you have to acknowledge its relationship with the Original Trilogy and the Prequels.
The issue with Andor is that it just so easily gets dismissed by fans. Whether it counts as 'Star Wars' or not, it's still well crafted. It might not have the force or lightsabers but we should still encourage it. If we don't, disney will decide there's no point taking time on making content because nobody watches it. We will get more crap like Obi-wan and Boba fett.
Part of the struggle is the buy in for those who get the most dramatic impact from force and lightsabers. Those are the more epic or intriguing things to most people I'd say. (Honestly i think its kinda like trying to play the table top rpgs, but you have people that all really want to play with seperate books all at once)
Also no real villian to work against over all.
@@TheFatalcrest It's really hard to relate to them. I felt more excitement watching Cass working on that assembly line thing, trying to be the fastest group for a small reward, than i have felt for ANY action scene from starwars since revenge of the sith....And granted that was probably only because I was kid, but still.
Either way, I don't think "Action" has ever been starwars' strong suit. I much prefer it's world building and good ol' fashion hero tales.
I don't understand why people are so against star wars stories not including Jedi and Lightsabres, like it's literally an entire galaxy of course there's going to be events, and important things happening that don't involve the force or Jedi/Sith.
I think it's a very childish argument to say that its not Star Wars because there's no force users swinging lightsabres around. In my opinion needing a lightsabre in everything is what ruined the Mandalorian
@@MasterIceyy I can see how you'd feel that way, I definitely kinda wish Mando didn't end up being so big and important, I was actually very interested in a simple low to sands space themed western. Put him on some frontier planet with a loose control from the waning Imperial forces (because that was also interesting to me) and give him jobs to solve, average people that need help, a sheriff and a crime syndicate that are at odds, and drip in some backstory now and then when relevant. And even with the child, yiu put him in, maybe you check on him once in a while and Mando gets some opportunity to get closer to him, and maybe we do some force stuff.
"Well crafted"... it had serious pacing issues. Sure, it lost a lot of Star Wars fans due to lack of Jedi-esc content, but it also lost a ton of viewers because of the bad pacing. There is slow burn and then there is s-s-s-l-l-l-l-o-o-o-o-o-w burn.
Viewing or not viewing a show/movie does not really factor into Disney decision making as messaging is their mantra. I am not going to support something I do not like in the off chance it might, I repeat MIGHT, lead to more mid products instead of "crap" ones. Especially since it will never happen with the current cabal in place.
I get the impression from this discussion that SWT is just kind of sad and stuck. Not just in current Star Wars, but in life. Being as big as he is, I'm sure he's doing quite well financially, but it's still kind of depressing to see someone seemingly feel so defeated in life. Especially when they're doing what they started out loving and maybe don't so much, anymore. Maybe he should finally admit Star Wars sucks and move on.
I get the impression that He has no back up plan re income,if he moved on from his channel and had to get a regular 9-5 like the rest of us. Sure,he must be raking it in as a youtuber,but it's like having to carry on in a job you hate (Until a better one comes along) because you need a roof over your head and food on the table.
@@kingrubbatiti1285 Yeah, for sure. I know some about him, but I don't know, like, if he's ever gone to college or trade school or anything. Switching careers can be extremely hard. I guess I'm not even advocating for that as much as going back to basics and still doing the youtube thing, but on his terms. Again, I'm coming at this with only some minor impressions from catching an occasional video or tweet of his, along with this conversation. It just comes off as sort of like - I think it's Boogie? - that got big playing COD and now hates it, but that's what people want him to keep doing. It's just my admittedly mostly uninformed impression of SWT that he seems so defeated but consigned to it - both the lifestyle and pressures of that, and the covering everything and finding it all disappointing but forcing himself to accept the best of the worst of it. It's just sad to see someone seem so sad.
he has a gf and money hes chillin
Hes fucked. These youtubers that focus only on 1 thing get screwed when their time is over. SW is so awful and depressing now I could never focus on that 1 thing. I'd just try to make a normal channel or just get a normal job. Who knows. Covering disney SW for a job sounds like hell.
Money snowballs, once you hit a certain amount, you can make that money work for you. It's the ultimate cheat code.
Mauler, my man, you're amazing. I have a deep appreciation for your ability to just sit down and talk with people who would despise your opinion. Keep it up!
I think Theory was very clear at the start of this that he feels like he has to toe the line lest he get ridiculed. So, i think he's overly careful, and that makes me think that he really is burnt and crispy, but has to walk a fine line to keep his channel popular.
@@morganseppy5180 I agree, I think he could be more critical. But I do understand his perspective a lot better after listening to him and Mauler talk about all this. Changes my mind on preconceptions I had.
@@morganseppy5180Theory literally admitted there that he is not being honest and shying away from sharing a lot of criticisms he has, which is a shame.
@@morganseppy5180then he's spineless
The majority of the people in that stream were extremely positive of mauler. Most of the people who dislike Mauler don't watch Theory. He's pretty much labeled in the same category as geeks and gamers from what I have seen. Theory has tried to be more middle ground in the past but as he's recently said it's pretty much pointless.
Honestly got chills when I saw the title. The guy who cried at Mando S2 finale in a debate with the longman. Fantastic and such a good chill conversation.
This is proof the world would be a better place if people just talked to one another
define "better"
@@666lupine666gooder
@@666lupine666 better as in less suffering and rage
@@666lupine666a positively altered state of current reality, is my own definition.
"If a lot of people love each other, the world would be a better place to live" -Roombo Saggins
Im glad this conversation happened. 20 minutes in and this is a very civil talk about 2 different sides of the fandom talking about thier perspectives and not a shout fest. More of this needs to happen.
The reason I enjoy watching Mauler is that he understands an argument doesn’t have to be a negative experience. This was great gents talkin Star Wars.
I've always appreciated how Mauler, and the rest of the Efap guys, talk to anyone regardless of subscriber count and treat everyone equally regardless of how popular they are.
Might sound like a weird thing to point out, but I feel like a lot of people would overlook good content creators with fewer subs, or would kiss the asses of people with higher subs.
MauLer never punches down. And as a Welshman, it's always punching down
>the rest of the EFAP guys
Minus Rags, unless Mauler's there to keep him in line.
Ehh Rags is vile
Mauler, if you watch all 7 seasons of Clone Wars you’ll be even more confused about why Filoni made Asoka the way she is in her show. She’s completely different in Clone Wars compared to the live action version. But it’s the same guy who made both versions so that’s why it’s so weird.
Bad comparison. Ashoka’s 17 in season 7. She in her 40s here. Not saying I like the way she is currently written, but people tend to change quite a bit in two decades. Especially in a world like SW.
Did filoni really is the one that wrote ahsoka in TCW or is there a writer that did the heavy work while filoni was just there?
@@quintusfabiusmaximus8700I know for a fact that Ahsoka was conceived of by Filoni, and he was very heavily involved with her character at all points of development. Whether or not he literally wrote the scripts himself I'm unsure, but given how invested in her he is I'd be surprised if he wasn't very meticulous with instructions given about her character development
You're forgetting something dramatic happened to Ahsoka in Rebels...
You know, learning Anakin is Vader and then getting stuck on the Sith homeworld for 5 years. Also, comparing a 14 year old to a 44 year old.
@@TedSaint-r5b Absolutely false. That only works IF we can see how the character progressed to be that new person. This is the same situation with Luke in TLJ. We never got to see Luke's demise and character progression from the most hopeful person in the galaxy to a hermit. Ashoka suffers the same.
I can’t describe how much innocent excitement I had for TFA on launch. I was so invested in seeing Finn and Rey be co-leads, I assumed they’d be the next duo to match anakin/obi-wan, with Finn having a darker edge due to his stormtrooper PTSD. I was invested in snoke as his own character, Kylo REN basically ignoring the redemption of Vader was intriguing.
All these hopes were systematically crushed. Finn isn’t a co-lead, his ptsd disappears, he’s essentially comic relief. Rey essentially has no development, just Mary sues her way up the ladder, instead of having true failures and rises from them. Luke and leia are essentially insulted (looking at you Superman-through-space Leia). Snoke? He’s just palpatine in a can, who’s somehow returned. Kylo redemption? Okay, expected, misused in the end.
All of it such a letdown.
2015 sucked and looking forward to TFA really helped me through it. I went into this film with my inner Child fully activated.
And I'll be honest, it really worked for me at first. I left the theatre content. Of course, I didn't deem it perfect or anything but the most important question was: "Did I had a good time?" And I had. And that was good enough for me. And I left it at that. I was almost as energetic and hopeful two years later when TLJ came out. My exitent for TFA has cooled a bit in the meantime but I was willing to give it the benefit of the doubt. Like "It needed to be a safe film in order for the Universe to get re-established" or something like that. I was curious what the new film was going to do with this Template and what exiting places it will go to.
And then TLJ proceeded to punch me in the face. I wanted to like it. It basically didn't let me. And then Luke died and that was the exact moment the spell was broken and my inner child was buried.
Well gang, all it took was 6 years and Disney killing the sure-fire profitability of Star Wars, massacring literally *every* beloved character from George's original trilogy, over a hundred EFAPs, 5 shows, 4 of which which were spectacular failures of quality, the declining profitability of being baselessly positive about Star Wars, and of course, how can we forget, a South Park special lambasting Disney, and Kathleen Kennedy...
But we did it, gang. We're *HERE,* it's *TIME!*
Dread him, run from him, the *LONG MAN ALWAYS ARRIVES!*
Mauler seems like such a nice guy to converse with, very respectful chap.
Is this the MauLer equivalent of a RUclips Short?
Haha good one
Watched this last night and I loved seeing Star Wars fans cordially discuss their issues with Star Wars and their hopes for Star Wars.
To emphasise how much Filloni isn’t the right fit for the role if you want to see someone in charge of the franchise that actually respects it :
You can find interviews of Sam Witwer where he straight up says that Filloni told him that he deliberately changes things about the continuity depending on the project. The worst thing being that Sam Witwer managed to gaslight himself into agreeing that it is a good thing.
So yeah, no thanks, I don’t want that hack anywhere near a SW project ever again.
Filoni seems to implicitely have that "fixing Star Wars" mentality except he is much more familiar with the source material and having the benefit to cherry pick what to ignore if it doesn't fit his vision of the current project (even if it was part of his own previous work).
@@AAhmou There’s possibly some of that yeah, combined with the hubris of thinking he knows better than anyone else what is real SW.
But none of that would be as bad as it is if he didn’t also deliberately and consciously change continuity.
The excuse he gave to Sam witwer is basically that each story is told from the POV of different people and it’s always by unreliable narrator.
Which is just… Piss off dude, you don’t even have half the brain cells needed to build a coherent universe based on that premise -_-
And Jesus Christ people still want these idiots to touch the old republic. It's literally all we have left at this point 😂
@@nathanjora7627In my experience, the unreliable narrator is often used as an excuse to cover for shitty writing.
Filoni is a schlubby helium voiced soybrain male feminist. He's the physical embodiment of Disney Wars
I don't think a director has to be a fan of something to create an excellent movie about that thing. They have to be competent, do their homework, and focus on creating the best story possible that respects the past.
Especially a director, but I feel the same is equally true even for writers.
Neil Gaiman knows fuck all about Doctor Who, yet he created an incredible episode when he took to it. It's about love and dedication to the art you're creating far more than whatever brand you're creating it for. Part of that is of course making it fit in well with previous stories, the characters and the world, otherwise that's an aspect you've failed at
I'd say a director doesn't have to have any knowledge, but it would be his job to hire people that do.
The Wrath of Khan Has Entered the Chat.
That director didn't know a damn THING about Trek. He did after 6 months watching & writing in a cabin though. And now he's IMMORTAL. Ish.
For many artists its the mastery of the craft that holds their passion while the pieces are projects. Sure a passion project can help, but it shouldn't be needed when you really have the best of the best
@@HerohammerStudiosNeil Gaiman is a serious Who fan, don’t know where you got that info from but it’s bullshit
1:06:20 Mauler mentions the prequels creating strong culture; I'm of a similar age also and there were so many Star Wars based guilds and clans and groups, which had nothing to do with Star Wars games, let alone the movies. The themes, structures and organization, the Jedi and Sith, etc. were used in the way that Medieval cultural is used in that same manner. And while most of such groups are game-centric, there were different focused groups, with different intents, behaviors, conduct, etc. structuring off parts of those cultural morals. The people who started the groups were Star Wars fans and so based it of that and then people otherwise would join the group for the groups purpose. Heck, sometimes you'd never know unless or until you joined the group that it had a Star Wars base instead of a Medieval as typical.
And if you look at toys (e.g. Lego) that is sold TODAY, it's mostly OG and prequel stuff still
longman collabing with everyone love to see it
Major props mauler for joining sw theory’s stream, I’ve been a big fan of efap and Star Wars theory for years and it’s a treat to have you both chat.
Kathleen kennedy is destroying the franchise and after south park it’s good content creators are coming together with the same message
I feel the opposite. It took them MANY shows to realize their products were shit.
Mandolorian three seasons, Boba Fett, Obi Wan, Ashoka.
If South Park calling out Disney was what it took… then they were never looking critically.
It’s the reason Mauler could make a video titled “Star Wars cannot grow up”. And what did a react content creator do when he put her goofy ass reaction into his video? Tried to nuke his channel.
These are not the type of people that wake up from a reasonable response. Hell one of them has a GIANT CARDBOARD CUTOUT OF SHIN.
They are the type to wonder why the cave collapsed… when the TNT was around them all along.
Honestly, I found SWT creating a lot of head canon to try and fix writing problems in superficial scenes he liked just because of the superficiality. I agree on giving props for the chill / civil discussion though.
Bman you're here too???
@@bradendouglas7315 yes I am lol, I’m everywhere
@@B_Man99 theory talks forever 🙏💯💯
THANK YOU Mauler AND Theory! THIS is what we all NEED and LOVE, to be able to discuss what we love AND what we hate in a civilized manner. Please you guys DO THIS AGAIN!!
I'm very glad to see the respectful discourse. I'm unsettled, though, by the continued battered wife syndrome maintained by SWT.
"This is as good as it's gonna get."
"What else can I do, be mad at everything?"
"I heard your very simple question, but I don't think that's something the person in charge cares about, so let's just not answer it."
"We can't just tell them we don't like it and it should change."
"If someone in the desert gives you rotten food and polluted water, you're still going to thank god for them."
.. Man. Slavery really does take root in the mind.
Mauler -- I hope you get to see this -- I am so proud both OF and FOR you. The way you handled this debate, both in the presentation of your points, as well as your respectful disagreement, is a textbook example of arguing points, not personal preferences. I felt like, as I listened to this discussion, that you were an excellent ambassador for those of us in "your" corner of the internet. Channels I care about (for instance, TLP, Drinker) care immensely about writing, and I think your points were so squarely based on writing quality, not an emotional desire for wish fulfillment. Thank you!
8:15 : Who else do we have? Timothy Zan, Henry Gilroy, Tony Gilroy, The guy who left Respawn.
WE HAVE OTHERS. Filoni takes A LOT of credit for Clone Wars / Rebels but he had a CO-Writer.. he HAD a
Co-Producer. it was Henry Gilroy. He never gets any credit.
Methinks that's part of the problem. Favreau and Filoni have a lot of popular appeal behind them, and a lot of influence because of that.
filoni wrote basically none of the clone wars episodes. look it up
@@lokay7233
Correct. I believe the exact number was 7 or 8, with two of them being a "CO-writer," not primary writer credits. Or maybe it was 10 total, and 8 were primary, and 2 were co-writer.
Regardless, of those very few episodes he DID actually have primary writing credits for, just under *half* of them were the *Martez Sisters* Arc episodes in Season 7... the one that everyone universally dislikes.
Whether or not the Martez Sisters Arc is *actually* bad enough to warrant SUCH universal distaste, it is undeniably strange how people conveniently forget how Filoni's greasy, shit-stained fingers were all over some their most hated parts of the show...
Don't forget the work of writers TCW ripped off like Jon Ostrander's incredible work on the Dark Horse Clone Wars comics.
@@eidolon1426
preach. didnt look into it yet but he was also involved with the last airbender show. arguably one of the best animated shows ever. probably didnt do shit there either, thankfully.
the thing about the martinez sister arc is that it has the same problem like the ahsoka show, nothing happens. i didnt watch it lol, but i think that basically the progress of the plot at the begining of the second episode is the same at the end of the third. its insane that people are just overlooking all of this
Watched this on SWT Channel shortly after learning of it and man, it was a great conversation.
Especially enjoyed listening to them all feel out exactly where each other stood on what, and the probing questions back and forth even if not all were answered.
"Do you have a face?"
"No."
“Oh, faced!”
I love Theory’s passion for Star Wars & his stance on not being a shill.
I love Mauler’s relentless criticism for the hollow, soulless crap Disney puts out.
As a fan of them both, this conversation was very appreciated.
this is probably the happiest i've been with a mooler video in a very long time. glad all 4 of you guys got to chat
I appreciated this discussion. Thank you for posting and sharing.
Theory is actually a breath of fresh air compared to your other "debates" like xqc or even yms even though he was ultimately amiable
1:15:35 Exactly man…Robert Myer Burnett nailed it with the statement that Star Wars is ONLY self referential now.
Alright, finally got to the end of it. What a good watch. I think I've seen one or two videos from SWTheory in the past many years ago and man, that poor guy just looks defeated. I would too if I was that big a fan and it went to crap that bad.
That said, Mauler is only 30 ... wow. I thought he was older than me. That's one smart cookie man. I'm super jealous of his ability to break down good/bad writing, explain things so clearly, and also handle things on the spot like this. And you know, the voice too. It's not fair man.
IKR?
I'm rewatching Andor and Rogue One for like the 15th time. That's the hallmark of a high quality show with excellent acting and writing. Nothing besides the OT and PT have been on my rewatch list. I hope Gilroy's Season 2 of Andor will be even better! Season 1 still gives me an "edge of my seat" feeling. Love it! ❤
My thoughts exactly
Full agreement, and theory thinks andor is ‘boring’. Maybe he’s just not smart enough to understand how good it really is. Let’s see how andor and rogue one hold up in 10 years.
They're both sh!t and Rogue One was was a much inferior version of that story absolutely filled with the kind of plot holes that would take out a road train. Movie is fkn trash
Also nobody gives a flying fuq about Andor, a dead Juan Soylo. It may have been a "good show" but it wasn't a good Star Wars show, because nobody even cared enough to bother wasting their time to watch it, I never did and I would definitely consider myself a hardcore Star Wars fan, especially considering the amount of EU series I own, hardback and softback. Maybe they should've done the scripts that George already produced for that Rebel series that never happened, even though it was completely written, the full series. Star Wars is dead
I am going to have to disagree with you on "Rogue One" being a high quality show. It was not good; one of the better Disney content, but still not good. Doesn't mean you can't like it, but just be honest about the quality. "Andor" had issues also, just not nearly as many.
Though I am glad you love them, nothing at all wrong with that.
I was gonna watch the 3 hour original, but a 2 hour cut down of just mauler? Perfection
The trick is to stop caring until they make something actually good. I grew up loving star wars, but it doesn't own me. And we don't owe it or them anything. Just like they don't owe us. But they need us.
Probably the healthiest attitude to have when it comes to media, honestly.
Wow, what a conversation. Now I wanna see Theory and the *Drinker* interact.
Now I wanna see Drinker and YMS interact
@@nont18411theory on sardonicast
I wanna see theory on efap
@@nont18411still waiting for that 😬
@@SomethingSomethingTargaryen Rags will bully him, so probably he won't come.
33:46 Priceless... Jokes aside, it is fascinating to see them reflect on this. But their expressions are so funny.
I 100% agree. lol, some synchronised existential pondering was initiated.
Gilroy stepped in and elevated the production/writing/world building/acting standards to a level that I hope to see continued regarding all future Disney SW productions. Will it happen though? No, I very much doubt it, primarily because of Filoni and KK.
Gilroy > Filoni
During the course of this discussion I had a thought about Moff Gideon. Imagine if he was introduced in Andor, rather than Mandalorian. I really like Giancarlo, especially his role as Gus Fring, he's a fantastic person for the role of monster who wears the mask of a normal person. But what if we got to see him do the opposite role, a good character who is slowly twisted into a monster.
Introduce him in Andor as an Imperial governor who genuinely cares for the people under him, military and civilian. He's introduced as a genuinely good person, who's found themselves working under the bad guys. We witness a rebel uprising in his sector from the POV of our hero characters. To us, their actions are that of freedom fighters rising up against an oppressive regime. From Gideon's perspective it's a bunch of attacks against a government he works under and sees as legitimate. Eventually things get out of his control and he has to call the wider Empire, and a star destroyer shows up and "pacifies" a rebellious planet through firepower. Guilty, innocent, it's all swept away as the finale of season 1.
Season 2 we see a redoubling effort by our heroes to keep the rebellion in the system going. This would facilitate Gideon into more and harsher punishments, until we see him slowly slip into the role of a full iron fisted tyrant by the end of the second season. Establishing him as a proper villain, a monster the heroes have to defeat.
Just enjoy what you get is not really solving the problem. Its ok to criticize Dave, gotta love it when Mauler asks them the hard questions.
Like you you are able to critical of his later work and Theory could re-write these series to make them better or make more sense in the
SW universe or he could even create his own story.
This was an objectively great conversation lol
that's a objective opinion which is a objectively subjective fact in my dishonest opinion
-Maulero Baggins
people disagreeing and.. having a .. conversation... ?
this is unseen thise last decade...
gg for that :)
The unfortunate truth is that SWT is partially enslaved to his nostalgia- he cannot leave Star Wars no matter what- so for him, getting Star Wars is a must. There’s no comprehension of “they can just NOT make more content until they figure it out”. He’s still looking for that same feeling as when he was a kid. And Mauler and crew are able to grow up and let it go.
Well if there is no constant sw content. He doesn't have a channel. So no income
So that's his job, no sw content no job sure he can find a new one but holidays are right around the corner the big ones, also bills but sure call him a child cause he has passion for something......
@@sephiroaone-of-nine101 I said what I did because he said it- He said he's still looking for that same feeling he got from when he was a kid. How many people did you hear watching Mando S2 Finale say "it made me feel like a kid again" ?
Lots of people want to to be happy, filled with wonder and joy. And the only way they can only get that now by returning to when they were kids. SWT isn't all that different, he's just more honest.
Mauler and crew arent trying to resurrect their childhood emotions. They are trying to experience new stories as adults.
I think where Theory is going wrong is wanting more Luke Skywalker swinging a lightsaber. Let them move on from the rebel/Skywalker era. If you want more lightsabers and the Force so badly, let them do the Old Republic. There's a billion Jedi and Sith running around there. Endless storytelling opportunities involving lightsabers and the Force.
Edit: Nevermind, he later says pretty much exactly what I just said.
Mauler is so diplomatic in this, he’s disarms them with charm and wit, bravo, these guys were nervous af
I love Star Wars Theory. He made some videos and invigorated my passion for Star Wars as a teen. But I identify more with Maulers criticism now as an adult. More conversations like this would save the franchise.
“I hated Andor because no laser sword battles” tells me so much about this man.
Oh I agree. This is the reason why I stopped watching his videos. He claims here that he’s a Star Wars skeptic on the route that Disney has done but at the same time here, he’s defending ahsoka only because Dave created and there’s laser sword battles
"I was taken out of context"
The context: * identical *
@@leonardoespino9780
The laser sword battles aren't even good!
@@budakbaongsiahoh I’m 100% with you. They’re shit it’s like they couldn’t afford to pay decent special effects team with all the money Disney was throwing at them. You can clearly tell those are fucking glowing tubes
@@leonardoespino9780 I don't get how anyone can defend the Ahsoka series. There is nothing to defend! It's complete garbage all the way through. Mauler made a good disinction, Ray Stevenson was good but Baylan Skoll was not.
How refreshing to see adults who, yes might have different point of view on some things, be able to have a discussion and still be cool with each other. And also find that they have a lot in common! Great show, and it's restored my faith in humanity!
The collaboration we thought we'd never see. I thoroughly enjoyed this open and honest conversation. Cutting through all the preconceived ideas and falsities built up of each "side", and discovering the actual points of agreement and disagreement was fascinating to me.
Unlike Disney SW, I found myself wanting more, and would love to see follow up conversations or even a potential recurring podcast...though I'm probably just being greedy now.
My respect and thanks to all involved for such good content.
It was a great convo would love to see some more colabs
You all heard it.
100% confirmed by Maulers slip up before he could cover himself.
Mauler has no face.......
I f**ing knew it.
what else did you expect of the eldritch monstrosity, The Long?
?
MauLer really is one of the most extraordinary people I've ever heard speak on pop culture stuff. it's not that I agree with everything he says, it's that I agree with every way in which he says it. his Unbridled Rage videos do his persona enormous disservice, as enjoyble as they often are.
and this RealSWTheory guy presents himself extremely well. they're all just guys. just people who are often meme'd to death. we're primed to hate them, then here we are.
more of this, MauLs. more. like it or not this WAS a political debate. Star Wars has become politics. and if people in politics with differing opinions talked like this, who knows. who knows?
Problem with Theory’s food analogy where you would eat anything if you’re starving. Difference is a bum who’s forced to eat that shit doesn’t say to himself he’s eating a five star meal. He knows it’s shit. Theory praising filoni and his awful work is like saying the garbage you’re eating is genuine good food
People can live without watching Star Wars. Shocking, I know. Plus, you can rewatch the good Star Wars.
I for one love it when a character in danger is constantly saved from death by cosmic forces, over, and over, and over again. It's great for dramatic tension.
A very productive discussion. Great to listen to
What a good crossover. People talking to each other like... people. It's good to know the act of talking to another being on the internet is not dead.
I found it kind of funny how one of the guys suggested to MauLer that he should watch the Mortis arc, and I could just faintly hear Theo in the distance screaming. The Mortis Arc is simultaneously incredibly damaging and a nothing burger.
The problem with that arc is nobody acknowledges it happened because The Father was wrong.
That's a conversation I'd love to listen to/have. I'm curious as to how damaging it could possibly be given it was intentionally written to be unclear if it actually happened or was simply a shared vision
This was a great conversation that needed to be had/ MauLer sees things from a creative's viewpoint, Theory sees things from a viewer/audience viewpoint.
Andor reminded me of parts of Thrawn books by Timothy Zahn that happen inside Corruscant, the corruption within, the dark cogs that are hidden inside the capital planet keeping the whole evil machine going. Those were my favorite parts of the book. Around the same chapters is when Thrawn meets Colonel Wullf Yularen and starts taking interest in ISB and inner workings of Imperial Intelligence. Andor really captured that part of the book for me. And to the point that people often use against fans being sexist or w/e I find Dedra Meero to be a compeling villain. She shown that even someone with a lower military rank in the Empire can be dangerous, she had this feeling about her, dunno how to explain it but kinda like people in Equilibrium with their feelings surpressed. You can see the inner turmoil but only in certain moments before she is back to her robotic focus. Good acting from Denise Gough who I only knew before this as voice actress for Yennefer in The Witcher 3.
Oh nice. Respect to Star Wars Theory for doing this.
Gosh, star wars theory sounds a lot like me. I lean a bit more to Maulers view, but I share a lot with theory.
I was a die hard star wars fan, and studied wookieepedia, bought books, paraphernalia, own all the movies except rise of skywalker (i own TLJ but have yet to watch it again. I initially wanted to own all of the star wars movies), and now... ive gone through sorrow, ive gone through anger. Now, Im apathetic.
It was a surreal experience seeing Thrawn appearing in live action, who my friends and I joked, is my bae, and feeling essentially nothing.
"Apathy is Death."
I HIGHLY recommend the new Thrawn trilogy written by Zahn if you haven’t read it. Both his trilogies on Thrawn are excellent though personally I like his latest one better. The story of Thrawn moving up through the Empire hierarchy is an excellent story. My favorite is the last book where he is teamed up with Vader. That book gives me chills.
There’s a LOT of good stuff in the books. Dark Disciple which is about Assad Ventress is mandatory reading imo. One of the best Star Wars books I’ve read.
You can always listen on audiobook too which is how I do it now since I don’t have a lot of time to read hard copy.
Don’t let KK take away what you love. That gives that succubus way too much power. She doesn’t deserve it. You deserve to remember Star Wars the way you love it.
I refuse to let KK and Disney get me down. Again, read the books. Zahn does an excellent job.
Worse than death, as death feeds the worms.
The Mooler and efap universe content has been insane recently.
I just don’t know what to expect when that notification pops up but I’m never disappointed.
A fitting analogy is Gilroy and Filoni came to bat, Gilroy got on base but drove no one in, and Filoni is 0-20 with a sac fly rbi. Maybe Filoni can be credited for that run, for making "real Star Wars" that "felt like Star Wars" off the backs of those before him getting on base. (And he still hasn't made a good story) But put Gilroy at bat with runners on base, and he's far more likely to bring them home with a "Star Wars story" that's actually GOOD.
Tony hit ball and it was a foul.
Gilroy is LeBron James. He just got traded to the Filoni-led Star Wars team that hasn't won a game in years but still has die hard fans.
I can appreciate SWT's perspective on being a sort of celebrity status of the biggest SW channel and getting both sides of it, saying he's too critical and not critical enough. I don't really envy anyone that puts themselves in that spotlight, though it was his choice and continues to be. I also get what he's saying with the dying in the desert analogy. I can appreciate it and feel a bit the same way. The difference is that, while I do love the OT and the general universe of SW but dislike most of what's put out for it and do feel starved for good SW, there are other good things out there. You don't have to starve and die. You don't have to accept the measly and rotten scraps that Filoni hands you. You can reject it, because it is rotten. You can just say "Well, there really isn't anything good here. It all sucks." And you can still be okay. You can still survive. Because there are other good things, and plenty of them. Not too many franchises, unfortunately. They've all mostly burned. But the House of Usher recently came out and I felt fed, again. Unfortunately, Star Wars sucks. And, unfortunately, SWT has based his entire life and personality around that thing that sucks, so he feels more deprived and starving than he should, because that oasis right over there? It's not a mirage. It's real.
But, I get it. I have Star Wars figures and posters and lightsabers in my office. I'm drinking coffee out of a Millenium Falcon mug. And it does really suck that my favorite fictional world sucks. And I'll embrace when it doesn't suck. But, it mostly does and Filoni isn't your savior. He's only ever going to give you rotten scraps. And you can take those scraps to survive, or you can reject them because why should you accept someone's rotten scraps? Maybe you'll barely survive for a little while longer, but it's going to make you sick, until you possibly build up a tolerance for eating rot.
Filoni doesn't give rotten scraps but go off
@@Apac12 he does and I did
@alexhayden219 Well-spoken. Couldn't have said it better myself.
I don't watch SWT and I may not agree with him on some stuff, but I have a lot of respect for him after this. Seems like a very chill guy.
Chill guy in a tough spot.
What an incredible match up, and an incredible, incredible video.
Love how Mauls runs circles around these guys intellectually. A true well-informed and thoughtful analyst instead of a fanboy looking for service.
The question about who's done more damage was great. You could see them scrambling internally to defend Filoni
I adore these kinds of discussions! The way you all carried yourselves throughout this conversation is truly admirable and inspiring.
This was a fantastic discussion. I love Mauler and SWT, and seeing this civil discussion about a franchise many of us love(d) between these 2 gentlemen fills my heart with good feelings; it's a nice break from the bullshit drama on the internet lately
Glad to see the two of them interact, big fan of you both
This is the most civil, well spoken and thought out discussion of the Disney Era Star Wars projects I’ve been dying to hear.
MauLer, Thank you for laying out this Olive Branch. It's really incredible seeing the Core Star Wars Fandom coming back together after being fractured for such a long time.
The point of this conversation: never settle for junk entertainment, even if it's (somehow) better than the worst garbage we've gotten. "Pool in the desert" isn't good enough. The desert shouldn't even exist in the first place, as it is totally the fault of bad writing, production, and directing.
Happy I caught this live. Definitely a pleasant surprise discussion
Mauler having the French hat mustache and wine was a lovely touch in the thumbnail
I want to see Sith66 and Theo, in a podcast, talking about the Mortis Arc.
That would be kino
Mauler, I really admire how well you pick your battles. There were so many times where I would have just gone off on him, but you were calm and let the little things go, and just focused on the big stuff.
Well done building bridges instead of burning them 🍺
Just amazing how Star Wars Theory and his guys didn't argue... at all.
It is difficult defending shit.