@@danger170388 umpire "thinks" (?) the tag was made. He obviously didn't see it, so why did he call it? Nope. Other things happen when the whole infield sees or hears a call made and with a man on third, with the "out" call, I coach my guys (esp. the !B, all plays are after his position) to think 4, then 3.
This is 100% the correct call. In baseball a runner or batter/runner is never required to run into an out. A batter/runner can stop and retreat so long as the runner is in the base path and has to stay between home and 1st base.
If an umpire calls a player out, you don't continue to try and tag him afterwards. The overall play isn't dead, but the play at first is. A comparison would be let's say an outfielder dives for a ball and the umpire rules that he did not make the catch. The runner on second advances to third. The outfielder knows that he caught the ball, so he throws to second to double up the runner for not tagging up, even though the umpire ruled that it was not a catch. Upon review, it is ruled that the outfielder did indeed make the catch. The runner that ran from second to third shouldn't also be out, because he only ran to third, because the umpire ruled that it wasn't a catch. If the umpire didn't rule that it wasn't a catch, then he never would have ran. In this situation, yes the 1st baseman didn't tag the runner, but the umpire ruled that he did. The 1st baseman then reacted to that ruling and stopped chasing the runner. The umpire influenced the future actions of the play, by making the incorrect call. You can't now go back and change the call, because that call set forth a domino effect of future actions.
I'm with you, changing the call was the wrong way to fix this mistake. I would absolutely have stuck with the out call, and would be perfectly confident defending that decision against whatever complaint may be raised.
First baseman knew he did not touch the runner. Regardless of the call, he should have touched him anyways to make sure. Umpires got it right. Fault goes to the player.
I think what we can learn is different sports (softball vs baseball) have different rules. In softball this would be considered interference and the batter runner would be out with the runners returning to the base occupied at the time of the step backwards (interference).
In softball it would have been an out but not for the reason stated. In softball it is illegal to retreat towards home as it is not a base that can be occupied. Instead of interference it is an out on the retreat rule
@@kennethadcock8858 For the sake of fairness and accuracy, here is a citation from an old (2013) ASA rule book. "Rule 8, Section 2, Part H: Batter-Runner is out when the batter-runner steps back toward home plate to avoid or delay by a fielder. EFFECT: The ball is dead and runner(s) must return to the last base legally touched at the time of the *interference*. " In 2015, NFHS didn't call it anything, they just stated the effect.
That's crazy the dude playing first thought he would be able to get away with that half ass no tag... If I were the pitcher on Mississippi State I would be so pissed.. how hard is it to tag him? Not like the guy on third is going to go home
If an umpire calls a player out, you don't continue to try and tag him afterwards. The overall play isn't dead, but the play at first is. A comparison would be let's say an outfielder dives for a ball and the umpire rules that he did not make the catch. The runner on second advances to third. The outfielder knows that he caught the ball, so he throws to second to double up the runner for not tagging up, even though the umpire ruled that it was not a catch. Upon review, it is ruled that the outfielder did indeed make the catch. The runner that ran from second to third shouldn't also be out, because he only ran to third, because the umpire ruled that it wasn't a catch. If the umpire didn't rule that it wasn't a catch, then he never would have ran. In this situation, yes the 1st baseman didn't tag the runner, but the umpire ruled that he did. The 1st baseman then reacted to that ruling and stopped chasing the runner. The umpire influenced the future actions of the play, by making the incorrect call. You can't now go back and change the call, because that call set forth a domino effect of future actions.
What the hell is the Miss St. coach even arguing? There is absolutely no rule even remotely suggesting that a runner would be out for some reason in this situation. He's shouting over and over again that the runner raised his arms, as if that means a fucking thing.
Rowgue51 he's arguing that the ump who called the runner out put himself arms up after to call time/end of play therefore his first baseman didn't go ahead and make the tag. That's why you should always tag the guy anyways
AG Media that is what he seems to be arguing, but tag or no tag I don’t understand why the umpires would declare the ball dead in that situation with other runners on base. I think it’s more likely his objection was that the first baseman gave up on trying to tag him once he saw the home plate umpire call the runner out.
A review and an umpire discussion are NOT the same thing. The umpires may have been wrong here because the runner stepped out of the basepath but they are allowed to talk among themselves and change the call.
Native ButNotOfThisWorld Up to 3’ while an attempted run down or tag is being made. I would not have called this guy out of the basepath but most commenters seem to think he was.
@@119Agent again... there was no tag being applied... he abandoned it way before he made it into the grass. Most commentators know nothing about the game... you seem to only know enough to make yourself look the fool.
Runner was still in the base path while the 1st baseman was attempting a tag. Once the defender gave up on making a tag, the runner stepped onto the grass, but by that time, he was not attempting to avoid a tag. No violation of the base path.
Terrible call......once the call has been made as a verbal “out” call, there is no way the continuation of that play should be allowed. That’s a mistake by the ump and should not have been overturned. The first baseman (1) not hearing the call still had plenty of time to throw to first (2) could have continued as the runner had just reached third so there was no hurry, he heard “out” and that’s all that’s needed......
Clearly a wrong call initially by PU, but understandable given his angle; yes U2 or U3 have a better angle, but it's not their call to make. However I think they should have stuck with the "wrong" call, because it wasn't really wrong in the sense that the action on the field was a sacrifice bunt which was successful and played cleanly by the defense; F3 only gave up the tag attempt because PU signaled the out. If PU had correctly given a safe mechanic and called "no tag" (or simply done nothing at all), F3 would have pursued BR further and made the tag or forced him out of the baseline where he was headed anyway. Staying with the Out call would have been "getting the call wrong but the play right".
Allen Linderman, this is not a force play. A force play occurs when a runner is forced from the base he occupied because the batter has become a runner. When the ball was hit fair, R1 was forced to 2nd. R2 was forced to 3rd. For the batter-runner, he is out if the defense tags him or 1st base after he has hit a fair ball and before he reaches 1st base. It looks a lot like a force out, but by definition it is not a force.
But the runner cannot retreat back towards home plate, can he? I don't see how he can run back and forth between home and 1st before he even occupies first base......
i really don't understand how an ncaa d-1 major conference 4-man crew can miss such a basic call as this. defensive player with the ball tagging the batter-runner. see a tag, call an out. don't see a tag, don't say nothin' 'cause the runner ain't reached first base safely yet. even a decent 2-man high school crew would get this call right. if the guys getting the big bucks can't get this call right, and in real time, maybe we need to re-think who is wearing the ncaa logo on their caps. just sayin'...
Out of the baseline. Out. He went from being on the inside of the base path touching the infield grass, to being outside of the base path, with both feet and space on the grass in foul territory.
It's like between any other bases, except if you retreat past home you are out. The batter did go more than 3 feet off of his path to avoid the tag and should be out for that
@@voncornhole No, the base path is only established when a tag is attempted. When the first baseman attempted the tag, the batter/runner's foot was just about right on the foul line. That means he has three feet on either side of that to avoid the tag. The runner's lane is three feet wide, so in this case that gives a great indicator of the three feet that the batter/runner has. The batter never left that 3 foot margin until after the tag was no longer being attempted. Once the tag is no longer being attempted, there is no longer a base path in affect. So, he can't be called out for running outside the path.
2A Forever wrong, you have 3 feet to either side of the established baseline. The running lane line is 3 feet to the right of the foul line. Since he was running on the foul line that is the established baseline, so going past the running lane line means he went more than 3 feet to his right. He should have been out.
@@73theking 2A Forever is correct and you are wrong. A runner may run wherever he wishes until a tag is attempted. Only then is he restricted to his basepath. Once the first baseman abandoned his attempt to tag the runner, there is no base path the runner must be in. The runner was never out of his basepath.
The question here isnt whether or not the 1st baseman tagged him, the problem is the 1st baseman heard the OUT call and for that reason didnt throw to 1st or keep trying to tag the batter-runner. No way you can overturn that call..........no way
If I was second coach - Don’t argue what was decided. Instead have plate umpire and 1st base umpire discuss being out of baseline- BR started inside foul line, then was just outside of running lane. Just my suggestion
The running lane is totally relevant as the running lane is 3' wide. The attempt to tag started when the runner was standing on the inside line of the lane and moved completely across the lane and into the grass on the other side. Clearly moving more than 3' from the baseline he was running at the start of the tag.
@@leonmatthewsiv1699 Guess again. I have umpired for close to 30 years and of course constantly read and understand the rule book. The running lane is totally irrelevant on this play. The runner may run wherever he wishes until a tag is attempted. The base path is established when the tag is attempted. In this video he retreats toward the plate to avoid the tag, which is legal. Once the first baseman stops his attempt to tag the runner, no base path exists, and the runner is free to run wherever he wishes. You and William Reed have no knowledge of how baseball works.
@@alanhess9306 Oh boy...the Batter-Runners base path is established once a play is attempted on the BR, which happened as the BR hit it. Once the BR steps outside that lane you have an out. I'm reminded of the Skunk in the Outfield play when we start talking about base path and baseline. Having no base path existing in your comment is where I believe you are incorrect. Once a runner has attempted to advance and a play has been made on them, the path exists until the runner is put out, advanced, or leaves the path. In essence, you can't have more than one base path during an advancement attempt.
Wormy 32 watch it again, when the 1st baseman attempts the tag, the runner is still in the base path. He doesn't leave the base path until AFTER he pulls the glove away
Wormy 32 even if he had, he was within 3 feet of the base path, the rule is very clear, the runner is given 3 feet outside the base path in order to avoid a tag. No matter what, he was safe and in the end the umpires ultimately got the call right
Lee Marion a runner can technically touch the outfield fence so long as a tag is not attempted. Because the base path is only enforced when a tag is attempted. And a good example is how often do you see runner round the bases so much that they are almost on the outfield grass.
Runner is out for two reasons. A runner cannot run the bases backwards without being forced to do so by situations ahead of him, so the umps can call him out on umpire judgement. But more importantly, runner is out for "deviating more than 3' from HIS baseline." Rule change in 2007 says not THE baseline, but HIS baseline, and that is demarcated from where a defensive player first starts to make a tag. Runner is on ethe actual baseline at that point and eventually crosses the 3' box line. Therefore, but rule, the runner is out.
James, you are wrong on both counts. A runner can legally back up to avoid a tag. He would not be out until he reaches the plate. The runner may run wherever he wishes until a tag is attempted. He then has three feet to deviate in either direction, he was never out of his established basepath during the tag attempt. Once the first baseman gave up on the tag attempt, the runner is again free to run wherever he wishes. You are making stuff up because you don't know the rule. You have a lot to learn. Runner is safe in this video.
@@2AForever-wi8yj Just curious. What makes my response wrong? Or did someone die and appoint you supreme commissioner of baseball for life, like Idy Amin Dada?
@@jamesmothersbaugh357 Your response is wrong because it is not illegal to run backwards toward the plate and the runner was never out of his established basepath. You don't know the rule so you make stuff up.
New rule 2024 No coaches on the field. Ever. After lineup card ceremony. No 1st or 3rd base coach either! Only sport where coaches are on the field of play.
What do you mean NO REQUIREMENT to tag????????? Of course there is. The difference is the big league guys are not as lazy as Harvey the base guy to not get in the wedge TO SEE THE TAG!!!!!!!!!!!!
@@gregoriobell2736 You are pathetically wrong. Those white lines denote the running lane the runner must be in when the ball is being fielded at first base and in no way is relevant to this play. The runner may run where ever he wishes until a tag is attempted. At that time his basepath is established from his position to the base. Once the tag attempt ended, the runner is free again to run wherever he wishes. He was never out of his established base path.
@@gregoriobell2736 Look up the rule for a running lane violation. Also look up the rule for when a runner is out for being out of his basepath. content.mlb.com/documents/2/2/4/305750224/2019_Official_Baseball_Rules_FINAL_.pdf
umpire mistake (understandable given the angle PU and U1 have), but that's the wrong way to fix it. PU called the runner out, so F3 stopped trying to tag him. You can't penalize the defense for believing the umpire. Clearly BR was going to be out, so just call him out move on... it's too late to fuss over the fact that he was never actually tagged.
I think the crux of this rule relates to a runner that is "forced to a base" can be ruled "as making a travesty of the game" by running the bases backwards. Batter is forced to first base in this play and he runs away from that base he is forced to. Consider a double play situation with R1 running back to first to avoid the F2 tag. I'm pretty sure R1 is out the moment he retreats (because he is forced to 2nd.).
Coach, this is not a force play. A force play occurs when a runner is forced from the base he occupied because the batter has become a runner. When the ball was hit fair, R1 was forced to 2nd. R2 was forced to 3rd.
WRONG If a runner going to second is met with a shortstop who fielded the ball at midfield and is running at him to tag has every right to pull up and start backwards as long as he doesn't retreat all the way to first.
@@2AForever-wi8yj The runner could actually retreat all the way to first base but would still be out when tagged because he no longer has legal possessiion of first. (or when the SS steps on second base) But you are correct, a runner can always retreat to avoid being tagged out.
Rule 2.1 (NCAA rules, 2015) defines "abandonment" as the runner giving up his attempt to advance to a base. It goes on to say that "The runner may be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases." In this case, by backing up, the runner abandoned his effort to advance. He is clearly out.
Brad, The runner never gave up his attempt to advance. He simply retreated toward the plate to avoid being tagged. You interpretation of the rule is totally wrong.
Alan, where exactly did you get your umpire training? I got mine from about 6 of the best at one of the two Major League Umpire Schools. I'm pretty confident in my ruling.
Brad, 25 years of umpiring mostly HS and American Legion ball as well as two years as a rules interpreter. I have attended numerous rules clinics over the years and have taught classes for new umpires. The runner leaving a base and returning to the dugout would be abandonment. Retreating to avoid a tag is not. According to you, anytime a runner retreats to avoid a tag would be abandonment. Your ruling is wrong.
My training came from Joe Brinkman, the late John McSherry, and Larry Young, Director of Major League Umpires. Answer me this, oh wise one, is a baserunner who is hit by a batted ball out? Why?
Brad, I have met Joe Brinkman and Jim Evans at high level clinics. Simply reading the abandonment rule should help determine the correct call. 5.09 Retiring a Runner Any runner is out when: (b)(2) (7.08) after touching first base, he leaves the base path, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base; Rule 5.09(b)(1) and (2) Comment (Rule 7.08(a ) Comment): Any runner after reaching first base who leaves the base path heading for his dugout or his position believing that there is no further play, may be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases. Even though an out is called, the ball remains in play in regard to any other runner. So again, according to you, a runner in a rundown would be out for abandonment when he reverses his direction toward the previous base. As far as a runner being hit by a batted ball, there are several factors to consider. Was the runner in front of or behind the fielder? Did another defensive player behind the runner have a play on the ball? So it depends on the situation.
A batter-runner is NOT allowed to move back towards home plate. As soon as this batter went backwards to avoid the tag he is, by rule, declared out. The original call was correct. I have no idea 1) why the TN player or coach would argue this call as the rule applies at just about every level of baseball (except really young kids), and 2) what on earth the umpires could have discussed that made them think changing the call was the right thing to do. What we learn from this play is that there are broadcast announcers, players, coaches, and umpires at the college level who don't know a very basic rule of baseball.
Christopher Musso it is legal for baseball and illegal for softball. This is smart on the part of the batter/runner to take up more time so the runners on 1st and 2nd have time to advance. The batter/ runner can back peddle as much as he wants as long as he stays between home plate and 1st base.
Christopher, It appears you are the one who does not know the rule. It is perfectly legal to retreat toward the plate and the runner would not be out until he reaches or passes the plate.
Christopher, You are correct that in softball the runner would be out. There is no rule in baseball that prevents a runner from retreating toward the plate. If you disagree, show us the baseball rule that supports your position. You can't because it doesn't exist. You are making stuff up.
Christopher Musso Rule 8 section 1 a base runner having acquired legal title to a base cannot run bases in reverse order to either confuse the fielders or make a travesty of the game. A runner violating this rule is out. He has not gained legal title to a base.
Joe Richards, Totally wrong. You don't know the rule. There is no rule that prevents a runner from retreating in this situation. The runner would only be called out if he reaches or passes home plate.
Joe, show us the rule reference. In baseball, MLB, College, HS etc, a batter CAN retreat towards home, as long as he hasn't touched first, OR, in his retreat towards home, touch home plate.
The runner left the base path to avoid the tag. The base path is determined by the location of the runner. The rule says 3 feet. The runner's lane is 3 feet. The runner began to avoid the tag INSIDE the base line. He ended up at least a foot (measurement) into the grass outside the runner's lane. He's out.
Wrong Eric. A runner is only out if he leaves the base path to avoid a tag. There was no tag attempt when the runner left the running lane. There is no reason the runner would be out.
Alan Hess the fielder reached out to tag the runner. The runner began backing up to avoid the tag. The emphasis is on the purpose of the runner's movement. He was avoiding the tag, so he's out.
The runner, moving backward, did not leave the basepath in avoiding the tag attempt. He left the basepath after the tag attempt ended which is perfectly legal. There is no rule that has the runner out on this play.
Alan Hess the rule states "to avoid being tagged" not "during a tag attempt." The runner's purpose for moving the way he did WAS "to avoid being tagged."
If the runner is attempting to avoid a tag, then logically, a tag is being attempted. The runner was avoiding the tag by retreating toward the plate. Perfectly legal. Once the first baseman stops trying to make a tag and walks away, the runner is free to run wherever he wishes. The runner did not break a rule. He is safe at first base. The umpires got it right.
NO???? I guess you are blind. He is completely outside the lines. That represents the baseline into the grass towards first base. I ump all the time baseball and softball. Clearly an out PERIOD. You can't do that. Read the rule book.
The Ark the runner gets a solid 2 to 3 feet and he was barely in the grass...the basebath is home just staying in the dirt and then he gets and extra foot or so
Barely in the grass? He is two feet into the grass. It's out of the baseline. He doesn't have to run all the way into the dugout for it to be out of the baseline. Those lines are there for a reason. Both feet are in the grass. Rather he is barely in the grass or not...He is in the grass. Stop the video at 137. And read the rule book on what the baseline is.
The rule book defines the base line as a direct line between the runner and the base he is running toward. So, where the clay and the grass is is irrelevant. When a tag is attempted, the runner cannot run more than 3 feet to each side to avoid a tag. If you look at the runner, he simply backpedaled a few feet while the first baseman attempted a tag and, when the first baseman pulled the ball back, he ran just to the right of him to go to first base.
I do not see that rule at any level of baseball. Softball, yes, runner is out as soon as they run backwards while on the way to first. Closest I can find is if the runner goes all the way back to home plate they are automatically out.
It looked like he stepped toward 2nd - legal. When a fielder tries to make a play on the runner, the base path is a line passing through the runner's position and the base + 3 ft to either side. When the fielder stops trying to make a play, the base path doesn't exist. He didn't go out of the base path.
![Twenty One Pilots - The Line (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Audio]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/XCz7WUotXs8/mqdefault.jpg)
The coach can blame his 1st Baseman, he knew darn well that he didn't tag him
Wrong. The !B umpire is 100% to blame for making a call that he DID NOT ACTUALLY SEE.
@@jamesoliver6625 no, if the umpire thinks the tag was applied, he makes the call. The fielder knew he didn't tag him, he should have made the tag
@@danger170388 umpire "thinks" (?) the tag was made. He obviously didn't see it, so why did he call it? Nope. Other things happen when the whole infield sees or hears a call made and with a man on third, with the "out" call, I coach my guys (esp. the !B, all plays are after his position) to think 4, then 3.
@@jamesoliver6625 he called it because he thought there was a tag. Stop ignoring the fact that the FIELDER KNEW HE DIDN'T TAG HIM
The fielder knew an out call was made, but he could've thought the umpire meant "out of the baseline" which is why the fielder stopped
This is 100% the correct call. In baseball a runner or batter/runner is never required to run into an out. A batter/runner can stop and retreat so long as the runner is in the base path and has to stay between home and 1st base.
Great job getting call right .
If an umpire calls a player out, you don't continue to try and tag him afterwards. The overall play isn't dead, but the play at first is. A comparison would be let's say an outfielder dives for a ball and the umpire rules that he did not make the catch. The runner on second advances to third. The outfielder knows that he caught the ball, so he throws to second to double up the runner for not tagging up, even though the umpire ruled that it was not a catch. Upon review, it is ruled that the outfielder did indeed make the catch. The runner that ran from second to third shouldn't also be out, because he only ran to third, because the umpire ruled that it wasn't a catch. If the umpire didn't rule that it wasn't a catch, then he never would have ran. In this situation, yes the 1st baseman didn't tag the runner, but the umpire ruled that he did. The 1st baseman then reacted to that ruling and stopped chasing the runner. The umpire influenced the future actions of the play, by making the incorrect call. You can't now go back and change the call, because that call set forth a domino effect of future actions.
I'm with you, changing the call was the wrong way to fix this mistake. I would absolutely have stuck with the out call, and would be perfectly confident defending that decision against whatever complaint may be raised.
First baseman knew he did not touch the runner. Regardless of the call, he should have touched him anyways to make sure. Umpires got it right. Fault goes to the player.
There is no baseline after the tag attempt is over. And he backpedaled in a straight line when the tag was attempted
Credit to the 3rd base umpire. At 2:15, you can see in the background that he's watching. He had a perfect view of it. Correct call, he's safe.
I think what we can learn is different sports (softball vs baseball) have different rules. In softball this would be considered interference and the batter runner would be out with the runners returning to the base occupied at the time of the step backwards (interference).
And another reason Softball is stupid
In softball it would have been an out but not for the reason stated. In softball it is illegal to retreat towards home as it is not a base that can be occupied. Instead of interference it is an out on the retreat rule
@@kennethadcock8858 For the sake of fairness and accuracy, here is a citation from an old (2013) ASA rule book.
"Rule 8, Section 2, Part H: Batter-Runner is out when the batter-runner steps back toward home plate to avoid or delay by a fielder.
EFFECT: The ball is dead and runner(s) must return to the last base legally touched at the time of the *interference*. "
In 2015, NFHS didn't call it anything, they just stated the effect.
That's crazy the dude playing first thought he would be able to get away with that half ass no tag... If I were the pitcher on Mississippi State I would be so pissed.. how hard is it to tag him? Not like the guy on third is going to go home
Once the umpire made an incorrect call, the1B should naturally be more concerned about the runner on 3 since the batter was "out".
5:30 "The play was dead because the out call was made." What?
If an umpire calls a player out, you don't continue to try and tag him afterwards. The overall play isn't dead, but the play at first is. A comparison would be let's say an outfielder dives for a ball and the umpire rules that he did not make the catch. The runner on second advances to third. The outfielder knows that he caught the ball, so he throws to second to double up the runner for not tagging up, even though the umpire ruled that it was not a catch. Upon review, it is ruled that the outfielder did indeed make the catch. The runner that ran from second to third shouldn't also be out, because he only ran to third, because the umpire ruled that it wasn't a catch. If the umpire didn't rule that it wasn't a catch, then he never would have ran. In this situation, yes the 1st baseman didn't tag the runner, but the umpire ruled that he did. The 1st baseman then reacted to that ruling and stopped chasing the runner. The umpire influenced the future actions of the play, by making the incorrect call. You can't now go back and change the call, because that call set forth a domino effect of future actions.
Coach should be cussing his first baseman, not the umpire, and benching his ass
Problem is when you try to put the Genie in the bottle you open up a can of worms...
Can a coach argue at 2 different umps after they got together to make a call....
DID TENNESSEE COME BACK TO TIE OR WIN??????
Out of baseline. He went outside of the ru nerslane while a play was being made on him.
The runner's lane is irrelevant on this play. There is no such thing as being out of the baseline.
@@alanhess9306correct. He gets 3 feet to either side once a tag attempt is made.
Wrong. He didn’t go out of it, but it’s irrelevant. He gets 3 feet to either side of his path once the tag is attempted. It’s not even close.
What the hell is the Miss St. coach even arguing? There is absolutely no rule even remotely suggesting that a runner would be out for some reason in this situation. He's shouting over and over again that the runner raised his arms, as if that means a fucking thing.
Rowgue51 he's arguing that the ump who called the runner out put himself arms up after to call time/end of play therefore his first baseman didn't go ahead and make the tag. That's why you should always tag the guy anyways
AG Media that is what he seems to be arguing, but tag or no tag I don’t understand why the umpires would declare the ball dead in that situation with other runners on base. I think it’s more likely his objection was that the first baseman gave up on trying to tag him once he saw the home plate umpire call the runner out.
Relief pitcher comes in ready to pitch!
Only sport that stops the game so a player can warm up
A review and an umpire discussion are NOT the same thing. The umpires may have been wrong here because the runner stepped out of the basepath but they are allowed to talk among themselves and change the call.
you can step out of the basepath...
Native ButNotOfThisWorld Up to 3’ while an attempted run down or tag is being made. I would not have called this guy out of the basepath but most commenters seem to think he was.
@@119Agent again... there was no tag being applied... he abandoned it way before he made it into the grass. Most commentators know nothing about the game... you seem to only know enough to make yourself look the fool.
@@119Agent and they are all IDIOTS
Runner was still in the base path while the 1st baseman was attempting a tag. Once the defender gave up on making a tag, the runner stepped onto the grass, but by that time, he was not attempting to avoid a tag. No violation of the base path.
who won the game
Terrible call......once the call has been made as a verbal “out” call, there is no way the continuation of that play should be allowed. That’s a mistake by the ump and should not have been overturned. The first baseman (1) not hearing the call still had plenty of time to throw to first (2) could have continued as the runner had just reached third so there was no hurry, he heard “out” and that’s all that’s needed......
I agree with you on this; should've stuck with the out call. wrong way to fix it.
Agree in principle, but by the rules it can be and was overturned
Clearly a wrong call initially by PU, but understandable given his angle; yes U2 or U3 have a better angle, but it's not their call to make. However I think they should have stuck with the "wrong" call, because it wasn't really wrong in the sense that the action on the field was a sacrifice bunt which was successful and played cleanly by the defense; F3 only gave up the tag attempt because PU signaled the out. If PU had correctly given a safe mechanic and called "no tag" (or simply done nothing at all), F3 would have pursued BR further and made the tag or forced him out of the baseline where he was headed anyway. Staying with the Out call would have been "getting the call wrong but the play right".
Where do you see that the PU declares he's out
@@mitchellhampton4175 you don't see it on screen, but the action and commentary makes clear that the PU made the out call.
@@davej3781 your right I was at work and had volume off
Can he retreat back before he gets to first base, since it's a force out?
Allen Linderman no. He’s out as soon as he steps backwards
Joe Richards, Totally wrong. You don't know the rule. The runner would be called out if he reaches or passes home plate.
Allen Linderman, this is not a force play. A force play occurs when a runner is forced from the base he occupied because the batter has become a runner. When the ball was hit fair, R1 was forced to 2nd. R2 was forced to 3rd. For the batter-runner, he is out if the defense tags him or 1st base after he has hit a fair ball and before he reaches 1st base. It looks a lot like a force out, but by definition it is not a force.
But the runner cannot retreat back towards home plate, can he? I don't see how he can run back and forth between home and 1st before he even occupies first base......
Allen, There is no rule that says a runner cannot retreat toward the plate. The approved ruling is that he is out once he reaches or passes the plate.
The RULES are mistaken here.
Who won the game?
Tennessee wins in 9th 3-2. Never got an out.
he was safe
i really don't understand how an ncaa d-1 major conference 4-man crew can miss such a basic call as this. defensive player with the ball tagging the batter-runner. see a tag, call an out. don't see a tag, don't say nothin' 'cause the runner ain't reached first base safely yet. even a decent 2-man high school crew would get this call right. if the guys getting the big bucks can't get this call right, and in real time, maybe we need to re-think who is wearing the ncaa logo on their caps. just sayin'...
Out of the baseline. Out. He went from being on the inside of the base path touching the infield grass, to being outside of the base path, with both feet and space on the grass in foul territory.
weaksauce call... no one would ever call that. Besides he abandoned the attemp to tag him when he was on the line... he can go anywhere he wants.
No Alex, he was never out of his established base path. Once the tag attempt ended, the runner is free to run wherever he wishes.
When you run back home I thought it was giving yourself up
You thought wrong.
It's like between any other bases, except if you retreat past home you are out. The batter did go more than 3 feet off of his path to avoid the tag and should be out for that
@@voncornhole No, he never left his base path.
@@voncornhole No, the base path is only established when a tag is attempted. When the first baseman attempted the tag, the batter/runner's foot was just about right on the foul line. That means he has three feet on either side of that to avoid the tag. The runner's lane is three feet wide, so in this case that gives a great indicator of the three feet that the batter/runner has. The batter never left that 3 foot margin until after the tag was no longer being attempted. Once the tag is no longer being attempted, there is no longer a base path in affect. So, he can't be called out for running outside the path.
It doesn't matter if he was tagged, to avoid the tag the runner went out of the over 3 feet of the base path.
No, the runner never left the base path.
Wrong once the tag was abandoned he could run just about anywhere he wanted to
2A Forever wrong, you have 3 feet to either side of the established baseline. The running lane line is 3 feet to the right of the foul line. Since he was running on the foul line that is the established baseline, so going past the running lane line means he went more than 3 feet to his right. He should have been out.
@@73theking 2A Forever is correct and you are wrong. A runner may run wherever he wishes until a tag is attempted. Only then is he restricted to his basepath. Once the first baseman abandoned his attempt to tag the runner, there is no base path the runner must be in. The runner was never out of his basepath.
Alan Hess he was retreating to avoid the tag and in retreating went beyond the 3 ft allowed to his right. At least that’s the way I saw it.
The question here isnt whether or not the 1st baseman tagged him, the problem is the 1st baseman heard the OUT call and for that reason didnt throw to 1st or keep trying to tag the batter-runner. No way you can overturn that call..........no way
If I was second coach -
Don’t argue what was decided.
Instead have plate umpire and 1st base umpire discuss being out of baseline-
BR started inside foul line, then was just outside of running lane.
Just my suggestion
The runner was never out of his basepath. You should learn the difference between the base path and the baseline.
No tag
IMO, the BR is outside the basepath (3 feet on either side) as both of his feet were well outside the running lane.
The running lane is irrelevant on this play. The runner may run wherever he wishes.
The running lane is totally relevant as the running lane is 3' wide. The attempt to tag started when the runner was standing on the inside line of the lane and moved completely across the lane and into the grass on the other side. Clearly moving more than 3' from the baseline he was running at the start of the tag.
Mr Hess, by my guess, has never umpired a game or studied a rule book.
@@leonmatthewsiv1699 Guess again. I have umpired for close to 30 years and of course constantly read and understand the rule book. The running lane is totally irrelevant on this play. The runner may run wherever he wishes until a tag is attempted. The base path is established when the tag is attempted. In this video he retreats toward the plate to avoid the tag, which is legal. Once the first baseman stops his attempt to tag the runner, no base path exists, and the runner is free to run wherever he wishes. You and William Reed have no knowledge of how baseball works.
@@alanhess9306 Oh boy...the Batter-Runners base path is established once a play is attempted on the BR, which happened as the BR hit it. Once the BR steps outside that lane you have an out. I'm reminded of the Skunk in the Outfield play when we start talking about base path and baseline. Having no base path existing in your comment is where I believe you are incorrect. Once a runner has attempted to advance and a play has been made on them, the path exists until the runner is put out, advanced, or leaves the path. In essence, you can't have more than one base path during an advancement attempt.
But if he leaves the "runners path" isn't that an automatic out?
Wormy 32 he didn't leave the base path to avoid the tag. The 1st Baseman knew good and well he didn't tag him
He did leave the base path by avoiding the tag at an angle. He ended up in the grass
Wormy 32 watch it again, when the 1st baseman attempts the tag, the runner is still in the base path. He doesn't leave the base path until AFTER he pulls the glove away
Wormy 32 even if he had, he was within 3 feet of the base path, the rule is very clear, the runner is given 3 feet outside the base path in order to avoid a tag. No matter what, he was safe and in the end the umpires ultimately got the call right
Lee Marion a runner can technically touch the outfield fence so long as a tag is not attempted. Because the base path is only enforced when a tag is attempted. And a good example is how often do you see runner round the bases so much that they are almost on the outfield grass.
Great example why replay needed expanding
Runner is out for two reasons. A runner cannot run the bases backwards without being forced to do so by situations ahead of him, so the umps can call him out on umpire judgement. But more importantly, runner is out for "deviating more than 3' from HIS baseline." Rule change in 2007 says not THE baseline, but HIS baseline, and that is demarcated from where a defensive player first starts to make a tag. Runner is on ethe actual baseline at that point and eventually crosses the 3' box line. Therefore, but rule, the runner is out.
James, you are wrong on both counts. A runner can legally back up to avoid a tag. He would not be out until he reaches the plate. The runner may run wherever he wishes until a tag is attempted. He then has three feet to deviate in either direction, he was never out of his established basepath during the tag attempt. Once the first baseman gave up on the tag attempt, the runner is again free to run wherever he wishes. You are making stuff up because you don't know the rule. You have a lot to learn. Runner is safe in this video.
WRONG
@@2AForever-wi8yj Just curious. What makes my response wrong? Or did someone die and appoint you supreme commissioner of baseball for life, like Idy Amin Dada?
@@jamesmothersbaugh357 Your response is wrong because it is not illegal to run backwards toward the plate and the runner was never out of his established basepath. You don't know the rule so you make stuff up.
New rule 2024
No coaches on the field. Ever.
After lineup card ceremony.
No 1st or 3rd base coach either! Only sport where coaches are on the field of play.
Not sure about college but this happens all the time in the majors and there is no requirement to tag.
What do you mean NO REQUIREMENT to tag????????? Of course there is. The difference is the big league guys are not as lazy as Harvey the base guy to not get in the wedge TO SEE THE TAG!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's an out the runner was out of the baseline all the way in the grass. Automatic out
No, that is wrong. The runner was never out of his established basepath.
@@alanhess9306 See the two white lines thats the base line the runner is in the grass that's out of the base line an out.
@@gregoriobell2736 You are pathetically wrong. Those white lines denote the running lane the runner must be in when the ball is being fielded at first base and in no way is relevant to this play. The runner may run where ever he wishes until a tag is attempted. At that time his basepath is established from his position to the base. Once the tag attempt ended, the runner is free again to run wherever he wishes. He was never out of his established base path.
@@alanhess9306 well I guess we disagree.
@@gregoriobell2736 Look up the rule for a running lane violation. Also look up the rule for when a runner is out for being out of his basepath. content.mlb.com/documents/2/2/4/305750224/2019_Official_Baseball_Rules_FINAL_.pdf
umpire mistake (understandable given the angle PU and U1 have), but that's the wrong way to fix it. PU called the runner out, so F3 stopped trying to tag him. You can't penalize the defense for believing the umpire. Clearly BR was going to be out, so just call him out move on... it's too late to fuss over the fact that he was never actually tagged.
That's a huge assumption the 1st base guy stopped his pursuit!!!!!!
@@dougthegreat1808 "the 1st base guy"? You mean F3? Yes, he stopped his pursuit because PU called BR out so there was no further reason to pursue him.
@@davej3781 hey there is absolutely no good reason to continue a debate on something as trivial as this. Danke, gute nacht.
I think the crux of this rule relates to a runner that is "forced to a base" can be ruled "as making a travesty of the game" by running the bases backwards. Batter is forced to first base in this play and he runs away from that base he is forced to. Consider a double play situation with R1 running back to first to avoid the F2 tag. I'm pretty sure R1 is out the moment he retreats (because he is forced to 2nd.).
Coach, this is not a force play. A force play occurs when a runner is forced from the base he occupied because the batter has become a runner. When the ball was hit fair, R1 was forced to 2nd. R2 was forced to 3rd.
Wrong coach, R1 would never be out simply because he retreats to first on a force play.
WRONG If a runner going to second is met with a shortstop who fielded the ball at midfield and is running at him to tag has every right to pull up and start backwards as long as he doesn't retreat all the way to first.
@@2AForever-wi8yj The runner could actually retreat all the way to first base but would still be out when tagged because he no longer has legal possessiion of first. (or when the SS steps on second base) But you are correct, a runner can always retreat to avoid being tagged out.
Rule 2.1 (NCAA rules, 2015) defines "abandonment" as the runner giving up his attempt to advance to a base. It goes on to say that "The runner may be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases." In this case, by backing up, the runner abandoned his effort to advance. He is clearly out.
Brad, The runner never gave up his attempt to advance. He simply retreated toward the plate to avoid being tagged. You interpretation of the rule is totally wrong.
Alan, where exactly did you get your umpire training? I got mine from about 6 of the best at one of the two Major League Umpire Schools. I'm pretty confident in my ruling.
Brad, 25 years of umpiring mostly HS and American Legion ball as well as two years as a rules interpreter. I have attended numerous rules clinics over the years and have taught classes for new umpires.
The runner leaving a base and returning to the dugout would be abandonment. Retreating to avoid a tag is not. According to you, anytime a runner retreats to avoid a tag would be abandonment. Your ruling is wrong.
My training came from Joe Brinkman, the late John McSherry, and Larry Young, Director of Major League Umpires. Answer me this, oh wise one, is a baserunner who is hit by a batted ball out? Why?
Brad, I have met Joe Brinkman and Jim Evans at high level clinics.
Simply reading the abandonment rule should help determine the correct call.
5.09 Retiring a Runner
Any runner is out when:
(b)(2) (7.08) after touching first base, he leaves the base path, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base;
Rule 5.09(b)(1) and (2) Comment (Rule 7.08(a ) Comment):
Any runner after reaching first base who leaves the base path heading for his dugout or his position believing that there is no further play, may be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases. Even though an out is called, the ball remains in play in regard to any other runner.
So again, according to you, a runner in a rundown would be out for abandonment when he reverses his direction toward the previous base.
As far as a runner being hit by a batted ball, there are several factors to consider. Was the runner in front of or behind the fielder? Did another defensive player behind the runner have a play on the ball? So it depends on the situation.
A batter-runner is NOT allowed to move back towards home plate. As soon as this batter went backwards to avoid the tag he is, by rule, declared out. The original call was correct. I have no idea 1) why the TN player or coach would argue this call as the rule applies at just about every level of baseball (except really young kids), and 2) what on earth the umpires could have discussed that made them think changing the call was the right thing to do. What we learn from this play is that there are broadcast announcers, players, coaches, and umpires at the college level who don't know a very basic rule of baseball.
Christopher Musso it is legal for baseball and illegal for softball. This is smart on the part of the batter/runner to take up more time so the runners on 1st and 2nd have time to advance. The batter/ runner can back peddle as much as he wants as long as he stays between home plate and 1st base.
Christopher, It appears you are the one who does not know the rule. It is perfectly legal to retreat toward the plate and the runner would not be out until he reaches or passes the plate.
No, you may stop but not retreat towards home plate. Applies in both baseball and softball.
Christopher, You are correct that in softball the runner would be out. There is no rule in baseball that prevents a runner from retreating toward the plate. If you disagree, show us the baseball rule that supports your position. You can't because it doesn't exist. You are making stuff up.
Christopher Musso
Rule 8 section 1
a base runner having acquired legal title to a base cannot run bases in reverse order to either confuse the fielders or make a travesty of the game. A runner violating this rule is out.
He has not gained legal title to a base.
Get off the fargin field coach
The rule is like this. A BATTER runner is out automatically as soon as he stepped backward while going to first.
Joe Richards, Totally wrong. You don't know the rule. There is no rule that prevents a runner from retreating in this situation. The runner would only be called out if he reaches or passes home plate.
Joe, show us the rule reference. In baseball, MLB, College, HS etc, a batter CAN retreat towards home, as long as he hasn't touched first, OR, in his retreat towards home, touch home plate.
Softball rule.
cite the rule number Dbag
The runner left the base path to avoid the tag. The base path is determined by the location of the runner. The rule says 3 feet. The runner's lane is 3 feet. The runner began to avoid the tag INSIDE the base line. He ended up at least a foot (measurement) into the grass outside the runner's lane. He's out.
Wrong Eric. A runner is only out if he leaves the base path to avoid a tag. There was no tag attempt when the runner left the running lane. There is no reason the runner would be out.
Alan Hess the fielder reached out to tag the runner. The runner began backing up to avoid the tag. The emphasis is on the purpose of the runner's movement. He was avoiding the tag, so he's out.
The runner, moving backward, did not leave the basepath in avoiding the tag attempt. He left the basepath after the tag attempt ended which is perfectly legal. There is no rule that has the runner out on this play.
Alan Hess the rule states "to avoid being tagged" not "during a tag attempt." The runner's purpose for moving the way he did WAS "to avoid being tagged."
If the runner is attempting to avoid a tag, then logically, a tag is being attempted. The runner was avoiding the tag by retreating toward the plate. Perfectly legal. Once the first baseman stops trying to make a tag and walks away, the runner is free to run wherever he wishes. The runner did not break a rule. He is safe at first base. The umpires got it right.
He was out of the baseline.
The Ark no
NO???? I guess you are blind. He is completely outside the lines. That represents the baseline into the grass towards first base. I ump all the time baseball and softball. Clearly an out PERIOD. You can't do that. Read the rule book.
The Ark the runner gets a solid 2 to 3 feet and he was barely in the grass...the basebath is home just staying in the dirt and then he gets and extra foot or so
Barely in the grass? He is two feet into the grass. It's out of the baseline. He doesn't have to run all the way into the dugout for it to be out of the baseline. Those lines are there for a reason. Both feet are in the grass. Rather he is barely in the grass or not...He is in the grass. Stop the video at 137. And read the rule book on what the baseline is.
The rule book defines the base line as a direct line between the runner and the base he is running toward. So, where the clay and the grass is is irrelevant. When a tag is attempted, the runner cannot run more than 3 feet to each side to avoid a tag. If you look at the runner, he simply backpedaled a few feet while the first baseman attempted a tag and, when the first baseman pulled the ball back, he ran just to the right of him to go to first base.
The runner going to 1st can not back up as soon as he does hes out and doesn't have to be tagged!! Know the rules people!
Mike Coleman, Totally wrong. There is no rule that causes the batter-runner to be out because he retreats toward the plate. Know the rules.
I do not see that rule at any level of baseball. Softball, yes, runner is out as soon as they run backwards while on the way to first. Closest I can find is if the runner goes all the way back to home plate they are automatically out.
BAck at you idiot Cite the rule number
0:43 was a big balk and 0:58 hes out for being out of the baseline
It looked like he stepped toward 2nd - legal.
When a fielder tries to make a play on the runner, the base path is a line passing through the runner's position and the base + 3 ft to either side. When the fielder stops trying to make a play, the base path doesn't exist. He didn't go out of the base path.
caitlynn clark, Nope, wrong on both counts. No balk and the runner was never out of his base path.
Look a two time loser
How the game ended ruclips.net/video/BiJRJ06hw_0/видео.html
he was safe
no shit?