I like these reviews. Most of us will never, (or rarely), encounter any of these situations, but seeing them ahead of time gives us time to think about them so that when, (and if), we see a similar play, we will be better prepared to render a good, accurate decision quickly.
I too am thankful for these videos. One clarification would be helpful though. If a batter-runner misses first base, is it a race to see if the batter runner returns to first before an appeal is made. If a following runner is scored, I believe the runner could return to first and still be called out on appeal. But if no runner is on, what happens then? The first base umpire referee magazine says to make a safe call (assuming the batter-runner beats the throw or tag), then wait for an appeal. In other words, I believe case play number 3 here needs some additional explanation.
Someone help me out here. In the scenario explaining 8-2-5 (beginning at 3:08 in the video), Patrick said that if the runner is beyond second base he can't return. The animated diagram also shows the runner returning to tag from second. Isn't second in this case the succeeding base? The rule includes being on, not just beyond the succeeding base so would the runner be disallowed a return to first?
In your case #8, if saw that, I would call time immediately after the action stopped. I would call R2 out for unsportsmanlike conduct "cheating" followed by ejection for making a mockery of the game. The head of the team would receive a warning.
@@richverost6416 there is support from NFHS for ruling such a runner out and ejecting him. There was a Code of Conduct memo last year that listed it as an offense worthy of immediate ejection. I answer question 8 "wrong" because my view is that if we don't call him out and eject him a the time he does it, then we've accepted whatever he did as a missed touch and his touch on the way back cures his previous failure to touch (NFHS 8-2-6l)
Regarding Caseplay 8, I've been instructed that we are to call out and eject a player who does what's shown in the inset video, and it's not an appeal play. I answered the question "wrong" on the grounds that if we don't call him out and eject him when he does it, then we've accepted what he did as an ordinary missed touch, thus the touch on the way back cured it and the appeal would be denied. I wasn't aware of a caseplay making this an appeal play, until now: *8.2.6 SITUATION H:* R1 is stealing on the pitch and a fly ball is hit to right field. R1 misses second base by (a) a few inches or (b) a greater distance because he cuts across the infield missing second base as he advanced toward third base. F9 catches the fly ball and R1 now retouches second base as he retreats to first base. F9's throw is errant and R1 reaches first base ahead of the throw. The defense now appeals that R1 should be out as he did not initially touch second base. *RULING:* In (a), R1 is not declared out as he touched second base on his return to first and as a result corrected his mistake by touching second on his last time by the base. In (b), R1 is out on the appeal because a runner who misses a base by such a great distance in order to gain an advantage would still be vulnerable to appeal under the principle of last time by.
8:00. A base path is established when a tag is attempted. So, when F1 attempts the tag, B4 has a base path that is from where he's at to 1B. How did he legally avoid the tag, violated no base path rules, and end up missing 1B altogether and landing several feet beyond out in foul territory? How could he possibly have remained in the base path and ended up where he ended up?
What has me thinking. What if this happens? R3, 1 out. B4 hits a line drive and clips F5. The ball remains in flight, R3 tags up third after F5 is clipped and then immediately proceeds to home, F7 catches the ball in flight. F7 then throws the ball to F5 to appeal the R3 leaving early. A) B4 is out. R3 Scores B) B4 is out. R3 Scores C) B4 is safe. R3 scores My judgement based on the rule is that it would be B. (Honestly a crazy situation that can happen). As long as R3 returns to the base after it touched a fielder he can advance. Honestly, I know for a fact there is going to be an ejection lol. You know for a fact a coach is going to absolutely flip their lid. So on a runner failing to tag up with 1 out. What if this happens? (I know the answer just throwing it out) What if instead of appealing the runner at the base they tag the runner who missed the base? Like for example: R3, R2, 1 out. B4 hits a liner to left field. R7 catches the ball in flight. R2 left early. R3 left on time and touches home. The fielders instead of making an appeal on the base they throw it to F5 on third and tag R2 who left early. A) B4 is out. R2 is out. R3 doesn't score. B) B4 is out. R2 is out. R3 scores. C) B4 is out. R2 is safe. R3 scores. Make sure you know what a tag out is considered ;)
Hey Patrick.... I have a question about a ball thrown out of play during an appeal. I can't seem to get a definitive answer from my rules guy on our NFHS board. I also don't see it in the NFHS Rulebook( perhaps I missed it somewhere??): R1 singles and misses first on his way to second. A fielder throws over to F3, appealing the missed base but F3 isn't paying attention and the ball goes past him and into dead ball territory. 1. Does the def. still retain the right to appeal? 2. If not, can they now request a 'dead ball appeal'? 3. Do you know the the rule on all rule sets? (OBR, NCAA, L.L. etc;) 4. What happens if the fielder accidentally or intentionally carries the ball into dead ball territory? How would that affect whether or not def. can appeal? Thank You, ross seymour, ct :)
2.29.6 SITUATION B: Following a base hit by B2, the visiting team wishes to appeal R1 missing third base as R1 advanced to home. After all playing action is over, the pitcher throws the ball to F5 while claiming that R1 missed the base. F5 is not watch- ing and the throw goes into a dead-ball area. RULING: After B2 has been awarded two bases, the visiting team may now verbally appeal R1's missed base. Because an appeal is not a play, the visiting team retains its ability to appeal the baserunning error.
What rule supports calling a runner out for an intentional missed base. You can't tell a coach "because the casebook says so". They don't get casebooks.
Whether or not they get the case book is not an issue for us. It is given as the proper rules book in the case book. Apparently, this was clarified in a memo a long time ago, but I have no idea. I'd imagine there is a sportsmanship rule that NFHS includes as relevant to this ruling.
@UmpireClassroom unsporting behavior amounts to an ejection. Not necessarily an out. This is the problem with NFHS. If it is not in the rule book, casebook or their site as a situation, you can't learn the information. They don't achieve previous year's situation, hard as a newer umpire to read it if it can't be found.
casebook interpretations have the full force of rules, whether the coaches get casebooks or not there are also NFHS Rules Interpretation memos every year which have caseplay ruling; many of those eventually make it into the casebooks, but not always and should be considered equal to the casebook plays, at least for the current year (you can find older Interpretations from previous years which may or may not still be valid; if there's been no rule change nor conflicting casebook ruling, then they probably are)
*8.2.6 SITUATION H:* R1 is stealing on the pitch and a fly ball is hit to right field. R1 misses second base by (a) a few inches or (b) a greater distance because he cuts across the infield missing second base as he advanced toward third base. F9 catches the fly ball and R1 now retouches second base as he retreats to first base. F9's throw is errant and R1 reaches first base ahead of the throw. The defense now appeals that R1 should be out as he did not initially touch second base. *RULING:* In (a), R1 is not declared out as he touched second base on his return to first and as a result corrected his mistake by touching second on his last time by the base. In (b), R1 is out on the appeal because a runner who misses a base by such a great distance in order to gain an advantage would still be vulnerable to appeal under the principle of last time by.
You have zero rules basis for ejecting him for "cheating". Do you eject every player that in your opinion has cheated? Slippery slope there. For instance, would you eject a player who is trying to sell a catch of a fly ball when in fact they trapped it?
I like these reviews. Most of us will never, (or rarely), encounter any of these situations, but seeing them ahead of time gives us time to think about them so that when, (and if), we see a similar play, we will be better prepared to render a good, accurate decision quickly.
Patrick, you do a fantastic job.
Your videos ao helpful.
Thank You!!
I too am thankful for these videos. One clarification would be helpful though. If a batter-runner misses first base, is it a race to see if the batter runner returns to first before an appeal is made. If a following runner is scored, I believe the runner could return to first and still be called out on appeal. But if no runner is on, what happens then? The first base umpire referee magazine says to make a safe call (assuming the batter-runner beats the throw or tag), then wait for an appeal. In other words, I believe case play number 3 here needs some additional explanation.
Thanks again for an excellent video, as usual!
Someone help me out here. In the scenario explaining 8-2-5 (beginning at 3:08 in the video), Patrick said that if the runner is beyond second base he can't return. The animated diagram also shows the runner returning to tag from second. Isn't second in this case the succeeding base? The rule includes being on, not just beyond the succeeding base so would the runner be disallowed a return to first?
I've been doing games 6 or 7 days a week and I come here everyday. Thanks for all the study guides. They're invaluable
11:40, b) is correct according to the audio but c) is indicated as correct in the video.
Go with the audio please
In your case #8, if saw that, I would call time immediately after the action stopped. I would call R2 out for unsportsmanlike conduct "cheating" followed by ejection for making a mockery of the game. The head of the team would receive a warning.
I disagree with your assessment, your decision, and your actions.
Can you back this action up with a rule? I do not think so. Let defense appeal properly.
@@richverost6416 there is support from NFHS for ruling such a runner out and ejecting him. There was a Code of Conduct memo last year that listed it as an offense worthy of immediate ejection. I answer question 8 "wrong" because my view is that if we don't call him out and eject him a the time he does it, then we've accepted whatever he did as a missed touch and his touch on the way back cures his previous failure to touch (NFHS 8-2-6l)
Regarding Caseplay 8, I've been instructed that we are to call out and eject a player who does what's shown in the inset video, and it's not an appeal play. I answered the question "wrong" on the grounds that if we don't call him out and eject him when he does it, then we've accepted what he did as an ordinary missed touch, thus the touch on the way back cured it and the appeal would be denied. I wasn't aware of a caseplay making this an appeal play, until now:
*8.2.6 SITUATION H:* R1 is stealing on the pitch and a fly ball is hit to right field.
R1 misses second base by (a) a few inches or (b) a greater distance because he
cuts across the infield missing second base as he advanced toward third base.
F9 catches the fly ball and R1 now retouches second base as he retreats to first
base. F9's throw is errant and R1 reaches first base ahead of the throw. The defense
now appeals that R1 should be out as he did not initially touch second base.
*RULING:* In (a), R1 is not declared out as he touched second base on his return
to first and as a result corrected his mistake by touching second on his last time
by the base. In (b), R1 is out on the appeal because a runner who misses a base
by such a great distance in order to gain an advantage would still be vulnerable to
appeal under the principle of last time by.
If it hadn't been in the case book, 0% chance I think this is the correct ruling. But it was lol
8:00. A base path is established when a tag is attempted. So, when F1 attempts the tag, B4 has a base path that is from where he's at to 1B. How did he legally avoid the tag, violated no base path rules, and end up missing 1B altogether and landing several feet beyond out in foul territory? How could he possibly have remained in the base path and ended up where he ended up?
What has me thinking. What if this happens? R3, 1 out. B4 hits a line drive and clips F5. The ball remains in flight, R3 tags up third after F5 is clipped and then immediately proceeds to home, F7 catches the ball in flight. F7 then throws the ball to F5 to appeal the R3 leaving early.
A) B4 is out. R3 Scores
B) B4 is out. R3 Scores
C) B4 is safe. R3 scores
My judgement based on the rule is that it would be B. (Honestly a crazy situation that can happen). As long as R3 returns to the base after it touched a fielder he can advance. Honestly, I know for a fact there is going to be an ejection lol. You know for a fact a coach is going to absolutely flip their lid.
So on a runner failing to tag up with 1 out. What if this happens? (I know the answer just throwing it out)
What if instead of appealing the runner at the base they tag the runner who missed the base? Like for example:
R3, R2, 1 out. B4 hits a liner to left field. R7 catches the ball in flight. R2 left early. R3 left on time and touches home. The fielders instead of making an appeal on the base they throw it to F5 on third and tag R2 who left early.
A) B4 is out. R2 is out. R3 doesn't score.
B) B4 is out. R2 is out. R3 scores.
C) B4 is out. R2 is safe. R3 scores.
Make sure you know what a tag out is considered ;)
Hey Patrick.... I have a question about a ball thrown out of play during an appeal. I can't seem to get a definitive answer from my rules guy on our NFHS board. I
also don't see it in the NFHS Rulebook( perhaps I missed it somewhere??): R1 singles and misses first on his way to second. A fielder throws over to F3, appealing the missed base
but F3 isn't paying attention and the ball goes past him and into dead ball territory. 1. Does the def. still retain the right to appeal? 2. If not, can they now request a 'dead ball appeal'?
3. Do you know the the rule on all rule sets? (OBR, NCAA, L.L. etc;) 4. What happens if the fielder accidentally or intentionally carries the ball into dead ball territory? How would that affect whether or not def. can appeal? Thank You, ross seymour, ct :)
2.29.6 SITUATION B: Following a base hit by B2, the visiting team wishes to appeal R1 missing third base as R1 advanced to home. After all playing action is over, the pitcher throws the ball to F5 while claiming that R1 missed the base. F5 is not watch- ing and the throw goes into a dead-ball area. RULING: After B2 has been awarded two bases, the visiting team may now verbally appeal R1's missed base. Because an appeal is not a play, the visiting team retains its ability to appeal the baserunning error.
I believe OBR would no longer allow an appeal, which likely impacts LL but I'm not any expert on LL. I'm not on NCAA either.
@@UmpireClassroom yes....I thought I saw that in our casebook!!
O.K., Patrick, Thank You!!!!
1:51, so R3 would be declared out?
What rule supports calling a runner out for an intentional missed base. You can't tell a coach "because the casebook says so". They don't get casebooks.
Whether or not they get the case book is not an issue for us. It is given as the proper rules book in the case book.
Apparently, this was clarified in a memo a long time ago, but I have no idea.
I'd imagine there is a sportsmanship rule that NFHS includes as relevant to this ruling.
@UmpireClassroom unsporting behavior amounts to an ejection. Not necessarily an out. This is the problem with NFHS. If it is not in the rule book, casebook or their site as a situation, you can't learn the information. They don't achieve previous year's situation, hard as a newer umpire to read it if it can't be found.
casebook interpretations have the full force of rules, whether the coaches get casebooks or not
there are also NFHS Rules Interpretation memos every year which have caseplay ruling; many of those eventually make it into the casebooks, but not always and should be considered equal to the casebook plays, at least for the current year (you can find older Interpretations from previous years which may or may not still be valid; if there's been no rule change nor conflicting casebook ruling, then they probably are)
*8.2.6 SITUATION H:* R1 is stealing on the pitch and a fly ball is hit to right field.
R1 misses second base by (a) a few inches or (b) a greater distance because he
cuts across the infield missing second base as he advanced toward third base.
F9 catches the fly ball and R1 now retouches second base as he retreats to first
base. F9's throw is errant and R1 reaches first base ahead of the throw. The defense
now appeals that R1 should be out as he did not initially touch second base.
*RULING:* In (a), R1 is not declared out as he touched second base on his return
to first and as a result corrected his mistake by touching second on his last time
by the base. In (b), R1 is out on the appeal because a runner who misses a base
by such a great distance in order to gain an advantage would still be vulnerable to
appeal under the principle of last time by.
@@davej3781 thank you for that case.
Slooowwww down Patrick.
Case play # 7 is amazing. In case play # 8 I’m calling R-2 out and ejecting him for cheating
You have zero rules basis for ejecting him for "cheating". Do you eject every player that in your opinion has cheated? Slippery slope there. For instance, would you eject a player who is trying to sell a catch of a fly ball when in fact they trapped it?
@@willowbrook2717 no, selling a call is baseball.
@@willowbrook2717 it’s still cheating but it’s considered acceptable.
@@willowbrook2717 my comment was probably a joke. I don’t remember the case play. Cutting a base?