@@MTGGoldfish You do amazingly well with most names, such that I realized I had myself flipped Eladamri as "Eldamari" because of your correct pronunciation. It makes all the other words that much better to hear when something shortcuts in your brain and out comes English syllables that are close to, but not quite, the word you intended.
For anyone who wants the math at 12:00 -- 1 Mondrak Balloon man makes a copy -> 2¹ = 2 tokens, 3 Mondraks total Tokens die to legend rule, 1 Mondrak left First Ratadrabik trigger -> 2¹ = 2 tokens, 3 Mondraks total Second Ratadrabik trigger -> 2³ = 8 tokens, 11 Mondraks total Balloon man copies Mondrak -> 2¹¹ = 2048 tokens, 2059 Mondraks total Tokens die to legend rule, 11 Mondraks left First Ratadrabik trigger -> 2¹¹ = 2048 tokens, 2059 Mondraks total Second Ratadrabik trigger -> 2²⁰⁵⁹ = 6.6 x 10⁶¹⁹ tokens So by the second Ratadrabik trigger resolution, Seth created not just billions of tokens, not just trillions of tokens, but literally a number so big, there is not a formal name for it. For context, our current estimate is that there are about 10⁸² atoms in the universe... if we call that number (a), Seth made a⁷ Mondrak tokens. ...and there are still 2046 triggers to resolve, getting exponentially larger each time. Seth didn't just exceed the Arena token limit, he exceeded a couple of universal constants.
Thanks for the math. Well done. As soon as I saw the 10 Mondrak tokens and Seth copying it, I already figured that we'd be in the exponential to the power of too much. But seeing the numbers is always fun to me. Especially with the "number of atoms in the universe" bit.
I love the fact that you don't clickbait us, Seth. The triggers at 12:50 *would* have made billions of balloons, and you did crash Arena, so you did exactly what is says on the tin. I'm impressed.
Someone else did the math... A billion is so short of it that the title is underselling the video xD In total Seth would have made more ballons than there are atoms in the universe... SEVERAL TIMES.
In the first match he made 2¹⁰ number of balloon mondraks, which is 1024. He had 1024 ratadrabik triggers, which each would make 1024 more tokens. This would make 1 048 576 nonlegendary tokens, which is just above a million. Congratulations, you broke Magic 🎉🎉🎉
@@chrisquint3656yea especially if you play Ocelots Pride and Delney, with some other cards like Dedicated Dollmaker and Oltec Matterweaver I can crash Arena on turn 4
to stop the turn two win against leyline, you need to live right outside the server for magic arena so you can go in and break the connection before your timer runs out.
I understand this is a joke, but Break the Spell might have some merit alongside Cut Down. Getting rid of the creature or the Leyline can buy you some time (or cause them to rage quit)
Because the fling is sorcery speed, you need to leave the leyline alone and kill the damn mouse in response to the attack trigger. The prevents the fling from being used and the mouse attack from hitting, so you only take 1/3 of the total damage that was coming your way. Then all you have to do is continue to have instant speed removal every turn for the rest of the game... (/s)
@@drd051178leyline of the void counters the on death effect. It also counters a few other prominent deck plans. That’s if you’re playing black and in that case you might as well have disfigure or cutdown.
Math! I believe @joelhatterini6392 wrote down correctly the start of the calculation for how many tokens we get if we have no token limit. You have 11 Mondraks, so you get 2^11=2048 balloons. Then they are legend ruled and you get 2048 Rada copy triggers. However, from here I think the number get much bigger then the 1.616 * 10^616 he calculated. On the first (1 of 2048) trigger, you get 2048 Mondraks, which you add to the 11 you had, so you have 2059. Next trigger (2 of 2048) you get 2^2059 more Mondraks. Then (3 of 2048 triggers) you get about 2^(2^2059), which is already way more then 10^616. You actually have 2^((2^2059)+2059)), but let's simplify (just a few hundreds zeros difference). In the next trigger (4 of 2048) you get 2^2^2^2059, and already the number of ZEROS is much bigger then the number of atoms in the universe. The last trigger will create about 2^2^...(another 2043 2^)...2^2^2059 Mondraks. So I can see Arena point there, choosing to crush - it's not a number a computer can calculate. And at the start of the video I thought billion is an exaggeration XD
The match server probably just straight up ran out of RAM. The reason Seth was still seeing triggers resolving was just the client processing all the data the server managed to send over the network before it failed. Just the client normally waits till it gets all the information before it starts doing anything. Which is why the stack never actually finishes resolving either.
If we take this number and divide it by googol (1e100) we get 8.78e618. If we use the google calculator to define it, it returns "infinite" The math is breaking down
Broke: WotC stops making token doublers because people find them boring. Woke: WotC stops making token doublers to save on server costs for big calculations because of Seth
With 11 copies of Mondrak on board the first balloon man would have created 2048 copies, which means each of those would have created another 2048 Rada copy triggers. But since each one comes in one at a time, the number of tokens amplifies exponentially, so you would reviece 2^(11+n) tokens on each iteration, where n is the number of resolved triggers. So if I didn't mess up my math (which I did), by the end of this chain of events you should have approximately 1.616 * 10^616 token copies of Mondrak. Give or take. EDIT: Nope, it's even more I'm an idiot, the actual copies per iteration would include all the previous copies and I neglected to include that in my initial calculations, so it's actually so much more than that I actually do not know how to properly express the math. Hopefully someone smarter can fix my mistake, but the base additonal tokens increases based on the summation of the previous step while my calculation was only adding one mondrak per iteration. So increase that number by a power of like 1000.
It's actually even more explosive than that. The first ratadrabik trigger resolves for 2048 more mondraks. You now have 2059 total. The second ratadrabik trigger resolves, giving you 2^2059 more tokens (already ~6.6e619 tokens). The third trigger will now give you 2^(2^2059 + 2059) tokens, etc...
We did see multiple games where just Ratadrabik + Jolly Balloon worked as 2-card value engine that would still take over and win in 2-3 turns. The extra "combo" parts for hundreds of b balloons are nice, but maybe a different shell around those two could still work in a less explosive form.
That was me playing Seth’s budget blue deck that went to a draw. I was super excited to see my first match of the day was against Seth! Equally bummed that we didn’t get to finish the set! But I was cracking up when he pulled off his combo and broke the game.
31:55 Here your balloon man makes 8 Ratadrabik. All 9 of them see you legend rule away 8, so you get 72 triggers (9*8) Each of those 72 triggers produces 8 tokens thanks to your 3x Mondraak. 72*8 = 576 tokens. Almost double the Arena token limit, which isn't that crazy, but I think the stack being 72 triggers deep is what killed it this time.
@@Karl_Smink it's a little bit less since the ones sacrificed don't trigger for themselves, but yeah, once mondrak gets involved, everything goes nutso. (The one that hangs around trigger for all 8 that die, while the 8 that die will only trigger for the other 7, so 8 + 8 * 7 = 64 triggers total)
For the second game against rabbits, I think Seth could have also kept the 1/1 legendary ratadrabik token instead of the OG. He'd get the same number of 2/2 fliers, but also have an extra 1/1 flier with haste, for exactsies
You have done it! You have reached Calculus! Congratulations! To calculate the number of tokens; X * 2^Y X is the initial number, and Y is the number of token doublers.
(12:30) When the triggers started finally going off there and spit out tons of tokens, that gave me a good chuckle. It's a shame that Arena can't handle all the bountiful balloon barrages. Oh, well.
Mondrak works like this: N = Number of Mondraks you control. 2 = replacement number of tokens made per token 2^N. If N=11, you make 2¹¹ tokens, or 2048 tokens for each ONE token you would create
I'll blow your minds even further. When resolving every Ratadrabik trigger that makes token copies of Mondrak, the number of tokens produced is a power tower of height equal to the number of tokens produced during the previous resolution. The growth rate of Seth's army of Mondraks goes beyond exponential. Beyond *tetration*, even (recursive exponentiation). The operation you are looking for is **pentation** (recursive tetration).
Someone once asked what the most amount of damage someone has done in Magic WITHOUT going infinite. I think Seth - once again- takes the cake. The first time being when he killed Crim with Exponential Growth which truly lived up to that name XD
@@Small_Panda Only the legendary creatures can be tapped for mana. 1 Legendary Ratadrabik, 1 Djeru and Hazoret, 1 Plaza, and the Relic itself is 4 mana.
the activation would have made 2048 tokens, so when they all die it would trigger token creation 2048 times, but the number of tokens created my these triggers would grow incredibly fast, because the first would make 2^11 (2048), the next one 2^2059 (2^11 + 11), which is already too much to reasonably write , and the third trigger would already create 2^[that number], which is a much larger number than the number of atoms in the universe. and that is just the third trigger, and with each additional trigger the number grows much faster than exponentially.
Thanks Seth! I was looking to build around the jolly creepy balloon man and hadn't actually considered the synergy with ratadrabik. One off the things i thought about was making tokens out of unstoppable slasher.
@@TheInfamousCloaker technically speaking, 99 baloons means 99 1/1 haste- flyers. It means almost certainly at least 90 dmg, enough to kill even the soul sisters deck. So this wincon is not really needed, since normally you will win anyway
@@ivan-ky9mk 1) In commander, 99 life is not enough to kill the entire table, you'd need at least 120, or some previous damage. 2) It would get around infintie life 3)It would be a really really really good reference for the 99 red ballons song, and honestly that is the main reason to add such rules text :)
@@SilverAlex92 Agree to 1). In 2) It doesnt really occur a lot, so imo not a big deal. 3) It would be if the Jolly Baloon Man wouldnt be a creepy horror charackter making baloons of peoples heads.
27:00 You had enough mana to win with Relic. 1 untapped land + Relic + 2 untapped legendary creatures. Play the Funeral Room then sac Jolly + Djeru for lethal
Was just hoping to see some ballon man against the odds! Had been thinking of a budget-y version with that forgotten OTJ uncommon Erta Jo, mentor and little panharmonicans for max value
This deck is reminiscent of a commander deck I made, with Dihada as the commander. Same idea, use token copies of Rata with Teysa, Mondrak, etc to go nuts. It was a lot of fun
Ratadrabik goes so hard it's nutty, definitely one of my favorite commanders. Even a "fair" Ratadrabik deck goes wide easily, and an unfair one goes infinite almost easier...
Trying to calculate from that 2nd game. You had 11 Mondrak's on the field. Meaning each entrance doubled 11 times. That's 2^11 which is 2048 I think. Then each of 2048 of those Mondrak copies died, triggering Ratadrabic's trigger each time. So it's 2048 death triggers, each doubled 11 times. So I'm thinking that's 2048^2 which is four million, one hundred ninety-four thousand, three hundred and four tokens. In addition to the 18 creatures you already had on board. So yeah, my count is 4,194,322 tokens. I'm not totally sure that's how the math works, but it's at least a start.
So I have been trying to make ratadrabik decks on arena for a while, heck even in brawl using LOTR cards. Yes he breaks arena ALL THE TIME. (you can also use the black dominus to double death triggers on ellas and rata). Used to also runrakdos joins up which meshed really well with him (death triggerfrom rak joins up x2 + his base power usually one shot anything)
I break Arena all the time using a couple interesting combos but my favorite is a historic deck that can run; Ygra, Eater of All Experimental Confectioner Chatterfang, Squirrel General Peregrin Took Camellia, the Seedmaster Savvy Hunter If you dont see the loop here Ygra turns all creatures into food tokens. Savvy hunter lets you sac 2 to draw one card. Saccing food creates a squirrel token thanks to Camellia. You also get another squirrel, treasure and a food token thanks to Chatterfang, Confectioner and Took respectively. This puts you net positive on tokens always but does require a little set up But now that you have infinite draw plus an ever growing amount of tokens there are some things to really really ramp things up; Parallel Lives (double your tokens) Doubling Season (double tokens and counters) Pitiless Plunderer (additional treasure when a creature you control dies) But whats the big deal this is just a very wide board that stacks your tokens together? Nope, you see the combo is complete with a card called Rampage of the Clans which destroys all artifacts and enchantments refunding everyone a 3/3 centaur token The game thenhas to over process what things actually belong on the stack and in what order, so there are more than a few things that can extra trigger like Pitless Plunderer. However with all those 'food tokens' destroyed Ygra overflows the stack and crashes the game. It takes about 150+ triggers in one hit
I'd love to see an against the odds or a meme or dream about this 3 card combo in standard. Enduring Tenacity, sheoldred the apocalypse, and Marina Vendrell's grimoire. If you have down the Tenacity and sheoldred then play the grimoire you'll start a loop of drawing cards gaining life and dealing damage till your opponent dies
did not expect an opening into a googology rabbit-hole in a SaffronOlive video... that was not exponential growth, or tetration, it was a few degrees above that, I'm pretty sure the function of Mondraks copying each other is somewhere on the list of fast growing mathematical functions explored in big number theory.
The GreError likely means General Runtime Error. The reason for the token limit is more than likely memory (RAM) limitations on the servers, though it is possible to be a RAM issue on the player (client). I do not work for WOTC or on the Arena team. But I’m a software engineer who has worked with C# (what Arena is written in) and am taking a guess. If I had to guess, the reason it’s crashing with low numbers in the later games is that the Ratadrabik triggers all hit the game stack at once. When they hit the game stack, they also hit the program call stack to get queued for program execution, but Arena is having issues displaying the call stack as the in game Magic stack. Just a shot in the dark based on understanding computer science.
I would be very surprised if it was a client-side error. If the client running out of RAM could trigger a draw, that seems like it would be extremely abusable since I'm pretty sure it would be possible to artificially starve Arena of RAM to avoid ever losing. (I mean I guess that might be possible and I've just never heard of anybody doing it, I don't pay that much attention to Arena, but I'd be quite surprised if that was the case)
@@AgentConundrum1 Shh, don't tell him. Genral Runtime Error Error was more amusing. Just like Automated Teller Machine Machine and Personal Identification Number Number.
I think the play against Mono-Red was kill the creature, not the Leyline, at least that's what I tend to do. Doesn't ensure anything of course, but I think they can do enough damage without the leyline anyway, so kill the creature that does damage to you twice and thrice.
I can see why you would go for the creature, but most of the time, they'll have another one to replace it. The leyline is harder to replace and makes it way easier to kill you. If you remove the leyline, they need to have 2-3 pump spells in hand, which is less likely than them having a replacement creature. I'd be willing to wager getting rid of the leyline is the safer bet 90% of the time.
@@Logan-lz5gu In standard and other newer formats? I'd say so. But in Modern and all that jazz, it's still strong, but the formats as a whole can easily match that power level.
the biggest thing, I think, is that these new copy cards like stormsplitter and jolly balloon man make individual tokens that don't stack, which Arena has a hard time processing. I'm not sure why they did things that way
That mono red is one of the most ridiculous decks I've ever seen in standard. The consistency on turn 2/turn 3 kills is disgusting. That's the kind of speed that is possible but unusual in modern and the absolute earliest in legacy. And he gets turn 2 with no mulligan and then turn 3 with no mulligan. The stars aligned or the deck is consistent too. And Wizards has been so against the "fun ruining" aspect of control that there are not really enough answers for it.
As somone who plays the Rakdos Leyline. It absolutely is a problem. I turn 2 killed /without/ the fling because I started with 3 leylines against a stompy that didnt have any mana dorks.
I do this with doubling season mondrak and the oko that can make a token of each non land permeant you control, Turns out mtg arena REALLLY doesn’t like mana flare, 13 mana flares is enough to draw out the game, It’s really annoying but so much fun
They implemented the token limit wrong, that's why it's crashing. They probably just shoved it at as some kind of post action cleanup step when it needs to be checked every time a token is added to prevent the intermediary state from ballooning to game crashing proportions. Moreover you also need to short circuit the loop that's adding the tokens or you might still get stuck processing a stupidly big loop.
"I crashed Arena and I'm gonna teach you how to do it" will always be a GOATed deck theme
*cries in scute swarm*
Then do I have the Doppelgang deck for you.... lol
Mono arena crash
Seth likes Ratadrabik so much he learned how to pronounce his name correctly.
truly incredible times.
I like the way Mono Black Magic says it lol. He calls it Retard-a-brick
Lol, this is actually sort of true.
@@MTGGoldfish You do amazingly well with most names, such that I realized I had myself flipped Eladamri as "Eldamari" because of your correct pronunciation. It makes all the other words that much better to hear when something shortcuts in your brain and out comes English syllables that are close to, but not quite, the word you intended.
@@Tawnos_this is how i found out ive been pronouncing this wrong since 1999
For anyone who wants the math at 12:00 --
1 Mondrak
Balloon man makes a copy -> 2¹ = 2 tokens, 3 Mondraks total
Tokens die to legend rule, 1 Mondrak left
First Ratadrabik trigger -> 2¹ = 2 tokens, 3 Mondraks total
Second Ratadrabik trigger -> 2³ = 8 tokens, 11 Mondraks total
Balloon man copies Mondrak -> 2¹¹ = 2048 tokens, 2059 Mondraks total
Tokens die to legend rule, 11 Mondraks left
First Ratadrabik trigger -> 2¹¹ = 2048 tokens, 2059 Mondraks total
Second Ratadrabik trigger -> 2²⁰⁵⁹ = 6.6 x 10⁶¹⁹ tokens
So by the second Ratadrabik trigger resolution, Seth created not just billions of tokens, not just trillions of tokens, but literally a number so big, there is not a formal name for it. For context, our current estimate is that there are about 10⁸² atoms in the universe... if we call that number (a), Seth made a⁷ Mondrak tokens.
...and there are still 2046 triggers to resolve, getting exponentially larger each time.
Seth didn't just exceed the Arena token limit, he exceeded a couple of universal constants.
As soon as your numbers get above "atoms in the observable universe", I tend to concede. It'd be a hell of a Rakdos Charm though!
Behold the power of Math!
Thanks for the math. Well done. As soon as I saw the 10 Mondrak tokens and Seth copying it, I already figured that we'd be in the exponential to the power of too much. But seeing the numbers is always fun to me. Especially with the "number of atoms in the universe" bit.
Thanks for the math
Also this video came up when I searched “double slit experiment”
I love the fact that you don't clickbait us, Seth. The triggers at 12:50 *would* have made billions of balloons, and you did crash Arena, so you did exactly what is says on the tin. I'm impressed.
I'm not a fan of clickbait, but I do love a good, honest title that people want to click on :)
Can confirm arena was broken
Someone else did the math... A billion is so short of it that the title is underselling the video xD In total Seth would have made more ballons than there are atoms in the universe... SEVERAL TIMES.
@@MTGGoldfish I personally love the "Home Alone" face on the thumb nail
In the first match he made 2¹⁰ number of balloon mondraks, which is 1024. He had 1024 ratadrabik triggers, which each would make 1024 more tokens. This would make 1 048 576 nonlegendary tokens, which is just above a million. Congratulations, you broke Magic 🎉🎉🎉
"Opponent? In this case the opponent is Arena"
That comment had me reeling lol.
12:12 Seth triggers global nuclear annihilation by releasing 99 red balloons into a summer sky
99? More like a number that most people can't even express in mathematical notation red balloons. The song thought 99 was a lot...
@@Xorthistbf with Nina (nena? Tbh I forgot the correct spelling) it wasn’t actually about the balloons
“This is it boys, this is war”
Close enough for a reference I guess
@@chrisquint3656Nena. And yes... "This is boys, this is war" 12:53 moment
Meanwhile random programmer guy in wotc Arena team sees the video title: Damn it , not this guy again.
Seth isn’t the only one crashing arena… I’ve got a deck that copies tokens with soul wardens… too many triggers on the stack crashes the game 😢
@@chrisquint3656yea especially if you play Ocelots Pride and Delney, with some other cards like Dedicated Dollmaker and Oltec Matterweaver I can crash Arena on turn 4
to stop the turn two win against leyline, you need to live right outside the server for magic arena so you can go in and break the connection before your timer runs out.
will this rope the opponent? if so I am in!!
I understand this is a joke, but Break the Spell might have some merit alongside Cut Down. Getting rid of the creature or the Leyline can buy you some time (or cause them to rage quit)
lol
Because the fling is sorcery speed, you need to leave the leyline alone and kill the damn mouse in response to the attack trigger. The prevents the fling from being used and the mouse attack from hitting, so you only take 1/3 of the total damage that was coming your way. Then all you have to do is continue to have instant speed removal every turn for the rest of the game... (/s)
@@drd051178leyline of the void counters the on death effect. It also counters a few other prominent deck plans. That’s if you’re playing black and in that case you might as well have disfigure or cutdown.
33:59 "not the best time for a funeral room. I think we are literally dead."
Thats probably the best time for it, isn't it?
Math! I believe @joelhatterini6392 wrote down correctly the start of the calculation for how many tokens we get if we have no token limit. You have 11 Mondraks, so you get 2^11=2048 balloons. Then they are legend ruled and you get 2048 Rada copy triggers. However, from here I think the number get much bigger then the 1.616 * 10^616 he calculated. On the first (1 of 2048) trigger, you get 2048 Mondraks, which you add to the 11 you had, so you have 2059. Next trigger (2 of 2048) you get 2^2059 more Mondraks. Then (3 of 2048 triggers) you get about 2^(2^2059), which is already way more then 10^616. You actually have 2^((2^2059)+2059)), but let's simplify (just a few hundreds zeros difference). In the next trigger (4 of 2048) you get 2^2^2^2059, and already the number of ZEROS is much bigger then the number of atoms in the universe. The last trigger will create about 2^2^...(another 2043 2^)...2^2^2059 Mondraks.
So I can see Arena point there, choosing to crush - it's not a number a computer can calculate.
And at the start of the video I thought billion is an exaggeration XD
yeah it wasn't a billion balloons, it was a billion balloon universes' worth of balloons lol
The match server probably just straight up ran out of RAM.
The reason Seth was still seeing triggers resolving was just the client processing all the data the server managed to send over the network before it failed. Just the client normally waits till it gets all the information before it starts doing anything. Which is why the stack never actually finishes resolving either.
If we take this number and divide it by googol (1e100) we get 8.78e618. If we use the google calculator to define it, it returns "infinite"
The math is breaking down
Broke: WotC stops making token doublers because people find them boring.
Woke: WotC stops making token doublers to save on server costs for big calculations because of Seth
I am surprised he dindt use Ojer taq. (White ixalan god, token trippler)
With 11 copies of Mondrak on board the first balloon man would have created 2048 copies, which means each of those would have created another 2048 Rada copy triggers. But since each one comes in one at a time, the number of tokens amplifies exponentially, so you would reviece 2^(11+n) tokens on each iteration, where n is the number of resolved triggers. So if I didn't mess up my math (which I did), by the end of this chain of events you should have approximately 1.616 * 10^616 token copies of Mondrak. Give or take.
EDIT: Nope, it's even more I'm an idiot, the actual copies per iteration would include all the previous copies and I neglected to include that in my initial calculations, so it's actually so much more than that I actually do not know how to properly express the math. Hopefully someone smarter can fix my mistake, but the base additonal tokens increases based on the summation of the previous step while my calculation was only adding one mondrak per iteration. So increase that number by a power of like 1000.
That is so far beyond even the total number of particles in the universe lmao.
I wanted to calculate how many bits it would take to represent that number in binary but trying to do that causes an overflow error on a TI84 lol.
@@rabidchinchilla3447Which is why arena crashes
It's actually even more explosive than that. The first ratadrabik trigger resolves for 2048 more mondraks. You now have 2059 total.
The second ratadrabik trigger resolves, giving you 2^2059 more tokens (already ~6.6e619 tokens).
The third trigger will now give you 2^(2^2059 + 2059) tokens, etc...
@@liorramati265 yeah I realized that after posting and added a clarification, I just don't know how to properly encapsulate that into a series.
I have never been so impressed by a deck with a losing record like that before
The 25%-ish of the time it works it's awesome!
It’s less of a losing record, more of a drawing due to crashing Arena record.
25% of the time it works every time
Splinter Twin: Look what they need to mimic a fraction of our power...
Twin is too slow for the mouses.
We did see multiple games where just Ratadrabik + Jolly Balloon worked as 2-card value engine that would still take over and win in 2-3 turns. The extra "combo" parts for hundreds of b balloons are nice, but maybe a different shell around those two could still work in a less explosive form.
Yeah he got completely land flooded and still managed to win the games which is pretty wild.
That was me playing Seth’s budget blue deck that went to a draw. I was super excited to see my first match of the day was against Seth! Equally bummed that we didn’t get to finish the set! But I was cracking up when he pulled off his combo and broke the game.
"mtg goldfish learns about exponents"
Bro I think this one requires power towers…
Continuing to voice my praise for best of 3 content, especially in against the odds
Arena needs a dedicated team to support your love for doubling triggers
31:55
Here your balloon man makes 8 Ratadrabik.
All 9 of them see you legend rule away 8, so you get 72 triggers (9*8)
Each of those 72 triggers produces 8 tokens thanks to your 3x Mondraak.
72*8 = 576 tokens. Almost double the Arena token limit, which isn't that crazy, but I think the stack being 72 triggers deep is what killed it this time.
@@Karl_Smink it's a little bit less since the ones sacrificed don't trigger for themselves, but yeah, once mondrak gets involved, everything goes nutso.
(The one that hangs around trigger for all 8 that die, while the 8 that die will only trigger for the other 7, so 8 + 8 * 7 = 64 triggers total)
A bit of a Stack Overflow, if you will
THE RISE OF FREAKI JIKI
Everybody that played Jodah before: "No, it's not working Seth...that's a guaranteed Greg error.."
Oof, he didnt realize he could use his amulet mana for non legendary things, he couldve played the room around 29:20
For the second game against rabbits, I think Seth could have also kept the 1/1 legendary ratadrabik token instead of the OG. He'd get the same number of 2/2 fliers, but also have an extra 1/1 flier with haste, for exactsies
Seth Breaks the Token Limit.... Again
Arena: Why must you hurt me?
You have done it! You have reached Calculus! Congratulations!
To calculate the number of tokens;
X * 2^Y
X is the initial number, and Y is the number of token doublers.
Listening to Seth explain the loop at a rapid pace and I'm just sitting here nodding like "yep those are definitely words" lol
(12:30) When the triggers started finally going off there and spit out tons of tokens, that gave me a good chuckle.
It's a shame that Arena can't handle all the bountiful balloon barrages. Oh, well.
Mondrak works like this:
N = Number of Mondraks you control.
2 = replacement number of tokens made per token
2^N.
If N=11, you make 2¹¹ tokens, or 2048 tokens for each ONE token you would create
Thank you. Other people did more math, but didn't explain where the numbers were coming from
I'll blow your minds even further. When resolving every Ratadrabik trigger that makes token copies of Mondrak, the number of tokens produced is a power tower of height equal to the number of tokens produced during the previous resolution. The growth rate of Seth's army of Mondraks goes beyond exponential. Beyond *tetration*, even (recursive exponentiation).
The operation you are looking for is **pentation** (recursive tetration).
Someone once asked what the most amount of damage someone has done in Magic WITHOUT going infinite. I think Seth - once again- takes the cake. The first time being when he killed Crim with Exponential Growth which truly lived up to that name XD
I once converted my opponent's horde of scute swarms into a 207/207 token via sunfall
27:52 Couldn't Seth have tapped the legendary Ratadrabik token he made with jolly balloon man for the mana he needed to cast the funeral room?
Yes, yes he could have. He kept saying one mana short, but I count 4 available mana.
@@noodlesalad I counted infinite mana as he described the loop in the intro lol
I thought the same thing at first but I believe since all the created tokens aren’t legendary they can’t be tapped for Relic mana.
@@Small_Panda Only the legendary creatures can be tapped for mana. 1 Legendary Ratadrabik, 1 Djeru and Hazoret, 1 Plaza, and the Relic itself is 4 mana.
27:49 SETH, LOOK AT THE GODDAMN BLUE-HIGHLIGHTED CARD! YOU CAN LITERALLY PLAY THE FUNERAL ROOM AND WIN! 😭😭😭
the activation would have made 2048 tokens, so when they all die it would trigger token creation 2048 times, but the number of tokens created my these triggers would grow incredibly fast, because the first would make 2^11 (2048), the next one 2^2059 (2^11 + 11), which is already too much to reasonably write , and the third trigger would already create 2^[that number], which is a much larger number than the number of atoms in the universe.
and that is just the third trigger, and with each additional trigger the number grows much faster than exponentially.
Thanks Seth! I was looking to build around the jolly creepy balloon man and hadn't actually considered the synergy with ratadrabik. One off the things i thought about was making tokens out of unstoppable slasher.
When Wizards printed Leyline of Resonance, they were thinking, "by the time we ban it the packs will already be sold." It's a common sentiment.
Always here for Seth's antics😂
The Jolly Balloon man really should have had a alternative win con being "If you have exactly 99 balloons in play at your end step you win the game"
You mean if you have 99 or more baloons?
@@ivan-ky9mk More than 99 would be too easy, technically speaking.
@@TheInfamousCloaker technically speaking, 99 baloons means 99 1/1 haste- flyers. It means almost certainly at least 90 dmg, enough to kill even the soul sisters deck. So this wincon is not really needed, since normally you will win anyway
@@ivan-ky9mk 1) In commander, 99 life is not enough to kill the entire table, you'd need at least 120, or some previous damage. 2) It would get around infintie life 3)It would be a really really really good reference for the 99 red ballons song, and honestly that is the main reason to add such rules text :)
@@SilverAlex92 Agree to 1). In 2) It doesnt really occur a lot, so imo not a big deal. 3) It would be if the Jolly Baloon Man wouldnt be a creepy horror charackter making baloons of peoples heads.
you have to imagine how the opponents react after seeing a sudden onslaught of balloons appear on the field to the point it nearly crashes the game
27:00 You had enough mana to win with Relic. 1 untapped land + Relic + 2 untapped legendary creatures. Play the Funeral Room then sac Jolly + Djeru for lethal
I’ll never get over how much I don’t expect to see a big dude with a beard like Seth after hearing his voice
I love how arena ropes you when ITS thinking.
you can bring in leyline of the void against mono red as it will stop the death triggers (not the fling tho)
Imagine coming home from a hard day at the office, ready to play arena. And then this
I love a deck that's so good it makes Arena scoop.
Was just hoping to see some ballon man against the odds! Had been thinking of a budget-y version with that forgotten OTJ uncommon Erta Jo, mentor and little panharmonicans for max value
This deck is reminiscent of a commander deck I made, with Dihada as the commander. Same idea, use token copies of Rata with Teysa, Mondrak, etc to go nuts. It was a lot of fun
"in this case the opponent is arena" 😂😂😂😂
As someone who has broken arena by playing Ratadrabik in Explorer, I highly approve of this list. Would love for you to see the Explorer list work
I imagine Ratadrabik sounds like Shnitzel from Chowder.
"Radda? Radda radda radda!"
Neunundneunzig Luftballons 🎶🎶
That was fun to watch- Math gone wild:) Thanks!
Ratadrabik goes so hard it's nutty, definitely one of my favorite commanders. Even a "fair" Ratadrabik deck goes wide easily, and an unfair one goes infinite almost easier...
This is the kinda crazy shenanigans I come to play Magic for
I was just trying to figure out how to make this work! Thank you!
Trying to calculate from that 2nd game. You had 11 Mondrak's on the field. Meaning each entrance doubled 11 times. That's 2^11 which is 2048 I think. Then each of 2048 of those Mondrak copies died, triggering Ratadrabic's trigger each time. So it's 2048 death triggers, each doubled 11 times. So I'm thinking that's 2048^2 which is four million, one hundred ninety-four thousand, three hundred and four tokens. In addition to the 18 creatures you already had on board. So yeah, my count is 4,194,322 tokens.
I'm not totally sure that's how the math works, but it's at least a start.
So I have been trying to make ratadrabik decks on arena for a while, heck even in brawl using LOTR cards. Yes he breaks arena ALL THE TIME. (you can also use the black dominus to double death triggers on ellas and rata). Used to also runrakdos joins up which meshed really well with him (death triggerfrom rak joins up x2 + his base power usually one shot anything)
I break Arena all the time using a couple interesting combos but my favorite is a historic deck that can run;
Ygra, Eater of All
Experimental Confectioner
Chatterfang, Squirrel General
Peregrin Took
Camellia, the Seedmaster
Savvy Hunter
If you dont see the loop here Ygra turns all creatures into food tokens. Savvy hunter lets you sac 2 to draw one card. Saccing food creates a squirrel token thanks to Camellia. You also get another squirrel, treasure and a food token thanks to Chatterfang, Confectioner and Took respectively. This puts you net positive on tokens always but does require a little set up
But now that you have infinite draw plus an ever growing amount of tokens there are some things to really really ramp things up;
Parallel Lives (double your tokens)
Doubling Season (double tokens and counters)
Pitiless Plunderer (additional treasure when a creature you control dies)
But whats the big deal this is just a very wide board that stacks your tokens together?
Nope, you see the combo is complete with a card called Rampage of the Clans which destroys all artifacts and enchantments refunding everyone a 3/3 centaur token
The game thenhas to over process what things actually belong on the stack and in what order, so there are more than a few things that can extra trigger like Pitless Plunderer. However with all those 'food tokens' destroyed Ygra overflows the stack and crashes the game. It takes about 150+ triggers in one hit
If you play A drinking game, drink every time Seth says RATADRABIK you’ll die in the 1st 5mins lol
Deck not only broke Arena but also costs a (noice) 69 tix. Good job today Seth. Truly Against The Odds.
I need more "My goal is to crash arena" decks Seth.
I'd love to see an against the odds or a meme or dream about this 3 card combo in standard. Enduring Tenacity, sheoldred the apocalypse, and Marina Vendrell's grimoire. If you have down the Tenacity and sheoldred then play the grimoire you'll start a loop of drawing cards gaining life and dealing damage till your opponent dies
The kitchen leaking through w this one lol
When you say jolly balloon man quickly, it sounds like "jolly bluman" lol
A Ratadrabik deck, yes please!
did not expect an opening into a googology rabbit-hole in a SaffronOlive video... that was not exponential growth, or tetration, it was a few degrees above that, I'm pretty sure the function of Mondraks copying each other is somewhere on the list of fast growing mathematical functions explored in big number theory.
Enjoying the Modern, Explorer/Pioneer, and Standard content!
20:03 Seth not learning from his mistakes.
my brain broke JUST at the explanation.
I see Ratadrabik, I like video.
Seth: Alright, let’s not break Arena this time
*Poceeds to break Arena
The GreError likely means General Runtime Error. The reason for the token limit is more than likely memory (RAM) limitations on the servers, though it is possible to be a RAM issue on the player (client).
I do not work for WOTC or on the Arena team. But I’m a software engineer who has worked with C# (what Arena is written in) and am taking a guess.
If I had to guess, the reason it’s crashing with low numbers in the later games is that the Ratadrabik triggers all hit the game stack at once. When they hit the game stack, they also hit the program call stack to get queued for program execution, but Arena is having issues displaying the call stack as the in game Magic stack.
Just a shot in the dark based on understanding computer science.
I would be very surprised if it was a client-side error. If the client running out of RAM could trigger a draw, that seems like it would be extremely abusable since I'm pretty sure it would be possible to artificially starve Arena of RAM to avoid ever losing. (I mean I guess that might be possible and I've just never heard of anybody doing it, I don't pay that much attention to Arena, but I'd be quite surprised if that was the case)
@@Falterfire If its both clients failing to stay connected at roughly the same time, that'd be a reasonable draw game condition
@@AgentConundrum1 Shh, don't tell him. Genral Runtime Error Error was more amusing. Just like Automated Teller Machine Machine and Personal Identification Number Number.
Been breaking Arena for 7 years now. Always can make an original deck with different ways to break Arena
"It's only three Mondraaks." lmao
Very impressed Seth can say Ratadrabik
I think the play against Mono-Red was kill the creature, not the Leyline, at least that's what I tend to do. Doesn't ensure anything of course, but I think they can do enough damage without the leyline anyway, so kill the creature that does damage to you twice and thrice.
I can see why you would go for the creature, but most of the time, they'll have another one to replace it. The leyline is harder to replace and makes it way easier to kill you. If you remove the leyline, they need to have 2-3 pump spells in hand, which is less likely than them having a replacement creature. I'd be willing to wager getting rid of the leyline is the safer bet 90% of the time.
@@kaptainkokujin4986does leyline need to be banned?
@@Logan-lz5gu In standard and other newer formats? I'd say so. But in Modern and all that jazz, it's still strong, but the formats as a whole can easily match that power level.
the biggest thing, I think, is that these new copy cards like stormsplitter and jolly balloon man make individual tokens that don't stack, which Arena has a hard time processing. I'm not sure why they did things that way
That mono red is one of the most ridiculous decks I've ever seen in standard. The consistency on turn 2/turn 3 kills is disgusting. That's the kind of speed that is possible but unusual in modern and the absolute earliest in legacy. And he gets turn 2 with no mulligan and then turn 3 with no mulligan. The stars aligned or the deck is consistent too.
And Wizards has been so against the "fun ruining" aspect of control that there are not really enough answers for it.
Thats the Jolly RataDRAWbik combo!
The follow-up song called 2^99 Red Balloons.
We have witnessed the might of Greg
Breaking Ratadrabik... Never seen that one before.
omg u had me laughing my ass off once again breaking arena client LOL
I did the vince mcmahon meme listening to the combo description
Leave it to Seth to break Arena yet again with an insane combo lol
As somone who plays the Rakdos Leyline.
It absolutely is a problem. I turn 2 killed /without/ the fling because I started with 3 leylines against a stompy that didnt have any mana dorks.
8:10 could have also played Djeru and Hazoret by tapping Ratadrabik, and attacked Vraska with haste
I do this with doubling season mondrak and the oko that can make a token of each non land permeant you control,
Turns out mtg arena REALLLY doesn’t like mana flare,
13 mana flares is enough to draw out the game,
It’s really annoying but so much fun
The true Against the Odds archenemy: Greg Error!
Been waiting for this one
I love this combo.
This deck is scarily hilarious
They implemented the token limit wrong, that's why it's crashing. They probably just shoved it at as some kind of post action cleanup step when it needs to be checked every time a token is added to prevent the intermediary state from ballooning to game crashing proportions. Moreover you also need to short circuit the loop that's adding the tokens or you might still get stuck processing a stupidly big loop.
Listening to you explain this made my head hurt lol
Always love against the odds content.
It wasn't a billion balloons, it was a billion balloon universes' worth of balloons lol
Another example of a deck that's fun to play in arena but not on tabletop.
You beat THE GAME (itself).
99 Red Balloons? Nah, we want a billion red balloons.
I played against this deck three matches in a row in bo1 standard - seems fun