John MacArthur on Mental Illness: This is Bad Theology
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- Опубликовано: 19 июн 2024
- In this video Gavin Ortlund responds to John MacArthur's recent comments that there is no such thing as mental illness.
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Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) is President of Truth Unites and Theologian-in-Residence at Immanuel Nashville.
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00:00 Introduction
03:35 1) Mental Illness Denial Hurts People
08:58 2) Our Need For Common Grace
13:23 Pastoral Counsel
16:12 No Mental Illness in Heaven 
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I envy people who could casually say mental illness isn’t real, they’re blessed to never have experienced it…
or he is experiencing it (he has it) and he's in denial.
It's not a question of whether we're suffering. It's whether and how much modern psych. theory and institutional health is actually helping us. JM is right that more and more professionals are defecting, and they're right to, and they'd be on Calvin's side here and not Gavin's. This isn't church vs science, it's humans vs antihumans.
@@maryt.2067Eh, even his theology is meh.
@@maryt.2067 nailed it. He has a very unChristian way of talking about people he disagrees with. Good theology doesn’t equal good relationship with the Lord. He exalts the humble and hides from the arrogant. Shalom
@@gertrudestrawberry huh?
As someone who suffers from OCD, I cannot imagine how harmful it would have been if I had had my mental illness onset while in a context like MacArthur's that denies the reality of mental illness, or OCD.
It is amazing to me that very conservative Christians, who have an incredibly thick doctrine of the Fall, are so often closed to the idea that the Fall has impacted the human brain as it has every other aspect of the world.
Exactly it's so weird to me that they don't say the same things about cancer or other health issues!
I suspect there is a conceptual misunderstanding going on here. I don't believe John is denying the symptoms, just the idea that brain malfunction is the cause.
The following vid explains the current secular diagnostic reality of mental illness:
ruclips.net/video/uhoDnp2qA24/видео.htmlsi=rbZYlTgtIHj-kEih
@@jdkayak7868Mental illness, in most cases, is fundamentally different than a sick body.
If you have enough faith and obedience you won't need to visit a dentist or possibly even brush your teeth ever again. That's my prosperity gospel!
bmide1110, the fact is in this post Christian world, many are suffering from something and that is not to lessen whatever you’re going thru. Merely pointing out that WE ALL FALL SHORT and some have actual mental issues, problems that do require therapy and meds. God healed me of alcoholism and the physical health problems the disease had caused but I fully recommend people try 12 steps as well as prayer. Find what works and don’t but into this kind of nonsense. This man denied covid and yet, people in his church died of it and it appears he had it bad himself and was sick for about a month or more
There's very much two extremes here. I was struggling with depression and anxiety that was related to childhood trauma and ADHD. I needed the medication for a season because I simply did not know how to cope with how I was feeling. However, eventually the medication was holding me back from actually getting better because ssris are not usually a good long-term solution. It's so frustrating that when you go to the world, so many doctors just want to medicate you indefinitely. But then when you go to the church, there's a stigma around any kind of medication. Thankfully, I am off my ssris and so thankful for the ways I found to help cope with depression. However, I'm still on my ADHD medication because it genuinely helps me and my day-to-day life. When there's no nuance with these things, people suffer.
I think you, just like me, need to go more outside. Being inside is depressing.
So my answer, RELY ON GOD,TODAY HE WILL CARRY, YOU HEAL YOU,in HIS time when?Today,m'be but RELY every day, don'tEver give up,TRUSTis the most IMPORTANT. Talk to proffessionals, to help allievate, past and pres probs, ask GOD TO GUIDE YOU. Secondly, fitness, Can make, and break ur mood, so I DO LAPS IN ocean pool, now 2/3times a wk, up to 20, LAPS NOW,but it takes perserverance,discipline. But you'll never, find a sad face,round people who, are round ocean and ,doing fitness, THE BRAIN ,HEART ORGANS thrive on it. Walking too,if you dont like ,get a dog who does great excuse, to share.and the love, will flow on.animals are patient,and caring. They teach us that its ok, to have, down days,but they are still there at end. Eat more variety of VEGES and Fruit, bananas are a good backup, anytime,oranges canift u up. GOD made, all this ,because HE CARED,for our wellbeing. Attitude, to all this is in ur control.but GIVE GOD A GO,WHAT HAVE U GOT TO LOSE
I have been diagnosed with Cptsd. I can honestly say that it is not about grief or how we focus our minds. I have done a lot of gratitude work. There is a need for healing of my spirit and mind due to many many factors in my life. What is sad is in my effort to seek solutions, there has been a deep negative impact on me by trying to seek God at church. A lot of gaslighting, shaming and manipulation. Was anyone prayer for me? Nope. They were judging me. For a long time, I actually thought God hated me. Fortunately, now I realize that is not the case. I actually do pray for their eyes to be opened because of Matt 25:33-46.
Prayer 🆙 for blind eyes to see
+ hard hearts to soften
+ destructive words to cease.
Thank you Dr. Orlund! My wife is one of the most faithful women I have ever met but through on unholy combination of abuse suffered as a child and hormone imbalance perimenopause, her mental health can take strong dives. Her faith keeps her grounded no matter how she feels in the moment but it doesn't and can't just make her not feel it. Your acknowledgment of this is what we need more of in the church!
As a Christian mental health therapist who attends Grace CC, John clarified his statement this past sunday in church. He didn't change his stance but he did claritfy himself. His argument seems to be equally about his mental health diagnosis and the misuse/abuse of medication. I dont disagree 100% but i also dont agree 100%. In my experience as a clincian I see far too many clients who seem to wear their diagnosis as a sense of pride. Casually talking about all the things they cant do or how difficult life is be8of anxiety or depression. Step one is to learn how to break free from this forever patient mentality. Changing the way you talk about your condition is a huge first step.
As a believing Christian for almost 50 years and a professional counselor for the last 30, thank you so much for this video.
I'm sure your experience w/ mental illness has been very different than what McArthur professes. You likely know some very devout Christians that still suffer greatly, despite a strong faith and doing their best to trust a God that leaves them in their illness.
@saintejeannedarc9460, your poor choice of words at the end was sad .
@@davidjanbaz7728 God more often than not leaves people w/ illness. That's just life.
@saintejeannedarc9460 I think they mean that it came off as God just abandoning people to their suffering rather than abiding with them and giving them grace to get through it without losing hope.
@@samueljennings4809 Sometimes that happens too. It's unfortunate, but it happens.
My pastor when I was extremely depressed told me I need therapeutic help and he told me of some good therapists. Thanks to that I got better and have made my life immensely better! MacArthur’s speech is so shocking to me because every church I have attended believes in mental and physical health treatment.
It's not even the dumbest thing that MacArthur has said, so it's hardly shocking.
@shawnpatrick1877 be careful what you say about another believer, you will be held accountable for every word
True, the brain is a physical organ and can be broken. The spirit is not a physical organ, but it too can be broken. What do we do with a mental professional who misdiagnoses a spiritual condition as a mental condition? (serious question)
As christians, we should be the first to realize that a professional who doesn't have a category for "spiritual illness" is wholly unqualified to help someone struggling, regardless of the university degrees and mind-altering meds they bring to the table: they are unable to differentiate between the two.
With that in mind, there is much to be said about diagnosing "mental health", or why, for example, depression skyrockets among girls who use social media. (if we really think that meds is the right prescription for girls who imbibe social media, then we're not understanding the problem, the solution, or the human condition. ...even if the meds do make you feel better)
More work needs to be done in this area, especially by those who understand that "spiritual illness" is more pervasive than "mental illness".
Christian counselor in training here, no doubt the heart, the will, and intentions of the mind are to be looked at as fallen. However, that’s different than mental illness where someone has been subjected to suffering from abuse or mental instability. You encounter both in the field, psychotherapy would likely touch on the first through secular techniques. Without an eternal sense though, psychotherapy is not enough. That’s where I believe pastors and theologians come in.
However with mental illnesses, this is something that Christians should pray for healing for. Whether it’s depression, PTSD, or any other kind of diagnosis. This requires actual clinical experience and knowledge to deal with the experienced symptoms.
@@myles_lynn > However with mental illnesses, this is something that Christians should pray for healing for. Whether it’s depression, PTSD, or any other kind of diagnosis. This requires actual clinical experience and knowledge to deal with the experienced symptoms.
Q1: Are these spiritual issues, mental issues, or a mix of the two?
Q2: How do you know?
Q3: If one can't differentiate between spiritual issues and mental issues, how do you know you're actually dealing with the issue and not just putting bandaids on symptoms? After all, spiritual issues can appear as mental issues.
For example - When an evil spirit from the Lord afflicted Saul, was that a spiritual issue, mental issue or a mix of both? (We know the answer due to the text. But in the absence of Holy Scripture, what would we, in the 21st century, conclude from the symptoms presented? And was the music provided by David a cure? A bandaid?
What assurances do we have that the Lord doesn't send evil spirits today?
If we let our spirits dry up spiritually, will we display symptoms of depression? Will we incur PTSD when trauma arises?
Lots of questions.
Lots of good theories and hypothesis out there, but few solid answers.
The massive irony in your statement is that it was (I assume) unregenerate researchers, living in what this podcaster and John Calvin refer to as “the doctrine of common grace”, who discovered the association between young girls’ consumption of social media and ensuing depression. The article linked below comes to us from the National Institutes of Health.
Medical doctors would definitely endorse the association between young girls’ excessive use of social media and depression.
Unfortunately, managed healthcare does not lend itself to having the time with a patient required to undertake a holistic review of the patient’s lifestyle to be able to assess any lifestyle factors that could be leading to mental illness. Because…(And I know this will upset you) Late-stage capitalism. Back when we had healthy capitalism, we had family doctors who made house calls and knew all the family members intimately. They knew their habits and ways. Today, late-stage capitalism has ruined all that with the managed care profit motive by insurers and the pharmaceutical industry which has severely compromised the holistic approach formerly undertaken by family doctors.
Chances are you read about the association with depression and excessive social media consumption in young girls, and never offered any credit to the brilliant researchers who discovered the connection. So now, you criticize the medical profession that discovered the association.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10594088/#:~:text=In%20addition%2C%20girls%20generally%20demonstrated,%25%20more%20likely%20for%20boys).
@@cherwynambuter7873 I think it's fair to say you've missed my point - or maybe I'm not communicating clearly enough. My point is not to criticize the medical profession; my point is to criticize the notion that "mental health is real" while wholly ignoring the fact that spiritual health AND spiritual health often manifests itself as mental health. When one cannot differentitate between the two, one is unqualified to to prescribe solutions.
So let's take the young girls and social media example (there are many others, but this one is readily observable and undeniable):
- Is it 100% mental health issue? Who knows??
- Is it 100% spiritual health issue? Who knows??
- Is it some mix of the two? Who knows??
-What is the prevailing solution these days? Well, if you don't know the source, you can be reasonably assured that whatever 'solution' is being proffered, it will not be 100% effective. It may be better than nothing, but at best, it will address the symptom, and not the cause.
- -
If you want to address the causes behind many mental issues today, we must address the spiritual dimension of humanity. This cannot be solved by the current medical system.
Nor can it be solved by doctors making house calls.
Best bet is that that it will require a Biblically minded theologian/psychiatrist/medical doctor.
much respect man. As someone who has struggled with mental health issues for my entire life that led me into prisons and rehabs, it is really refreshing to see a Christian like yourself stand up against bad theology like this that could be dangerous. thanks.
@GnosticInformant Hey, thanks for giving Gavin some encouragement on his channel. This is such a vital issue, too. I do not always agree with what you have on your channel, but I appreciate the dialogue and civility.
I agree completely!!!! Thank you for saying that!!!!! Mr. MacArthur comes across as a dour stuffy conceited narcissistic smug religious old far_ (the smelly stuff that comes out of people's rear ends). With his view of mental illness he needs to exit immediately.
As someone who lives with borderline personality disorder, adhd and everything that is brought by these conditions, I can't express how painful it is to be told that kind of thing. It's also a profound discouragement as a Christian because you feel you're not safe and allowed to be sick in the most important community you can have. You end up suffering alone and in silence.
Jesus has compassion. This guy doesn’t represent him.
And why people can be turned off by Christians and church
I have BPD and ADHD too I totally agree. It’s mindblowing people can still be in denial when MRI scans show the structural changes in our brains.
It literally drives you into a corner.
Me, too. It's so isolating.
The Gospel According to John (Macarthur): 'Just Straighten Up & Fly Right'!
An abusive childhood isn't something to be 'shaken off' or 'just gotten over' - the aftershock continues to resound throughout a life now hobbled by scars & memories God never ever intended His child to know (I speak from experience, as many here will too). Mr MacArthur seems to speak from the lofty moral high ground of one who either didn't experience these things or is in denial - either way, blundering into the complex pain & suffering of others with such cavalier insensitivity while his audience laughs along with him is deeply regrettable and surely worthy of a public apology - I won't hold my breath.😢
I know plenty of people who had abusive childhoods and, for whatever reason, it did not make them go off the deep end.
We should try to avoid making blanket statements. Even while trying to find commonality, everyone is an individual, and their experiences are unique.
@@melodysledgister2468 I didn't imply otherwise, but MacArthur did just that! Not everyone can shake themselves off and fly right after years of systematic abuse (in fact few ever do) - everyone is an individual and I suggest you remind JM of that!
Yes, there is a passage from Proverbs or Ecclesiastes that says if someone is in mourning or sadness, it is wrong to just say shake it off and cheer up. (Job?)
Jesus said of the man born blind that his illness was not the result of sin but so that God would be glorified by his healed sight.
We do not always know the reason for any illness, or how or even if it will be healed. But we know God has compassion, even to very rotten people because the said to "pray for those who spitefully abuse you".
Is JM praying for anyone? Because he apparently just believes it's all predetermined, no Holy Spirit needed.
I agree completely!!!! Thank you for saying that!!!!! Mr. MacArthur comes across as a dour stuffy conceited narcissistic smug religious old far_ (the smelly stuff that comes out of people's rear ends). With his view of mental illness he needs to exit immediately.
Thank you. I'm a mental health provider who works exclusively with Christian workers and I appreciate your wise (and accurate) response.
I am a medical doctor that works with trauma survivors. It grieves me when I hear Christians make comments like MacArthur's. It would be nirvana in my professional world if we humans didn't do awful things to each other. We live in a fallen world, not nirvana. I think we Christians need to spend more time praying and reflecting before we open our mouths. Thank you Gavin for having the temerity to go into this topic. I wish anyone who has MacArthur's opinion could spend the day with me. There are often very real reasons people struggle. Denial and shaming is not productive nor is it consistent with Gods command to love one another.
No the need read the scripture and let truth let you free
@@JohnJohn-nh2rl
That is nonsense. Church history shows that many fine and eminent Christians suffered mental health issues.
@@JohnJohn-nh2rlstop.
@@xDiananas stop
@@petercollins7848 well many of those church are not christian that read and walk as true Christians and thats the problem unfortunately abuse their position and teach false doctrine
"Its like telling someone who has a broken leg, just think positive and keep running." 6:42. Thanks for the video Gavin!
A broken leg is not a mental illness.. those are two completely different things. You are missing the point.
@@rdcsqualusno you are missing the point, just like our brain is part of the body so is our leg. If one is damaged you can't function like it's undamaged.
I have a god friend who suffered from bi-polar issues. He would start skipping sleep, solving all the world's problems, and 2 wees later be collected by police with butterfly nets at 2AM. Then he would receive medication that balanced him. He married a wonderful woman who would not let him skip his medication. As a result, he was able the live a good long life, become a father and grandfather, be a loving husband. Psychiatry has been abused often, but there have been breakthroughs in medicine that are real, and we should not forget that.
These so called medications cause damaging side effects dependancy and future problems and are abused and pushed because of money overall they cause more harm than good!
I was raised by a man who suffered from multiple mental illnesses in the 70's/80's. My father didn't get diagnosed until after I graduated from high school.
I'd love to have a chat with John Macarthur about mental illness...about before and after Dad found out he was sick, and what my "sinful" father did to adjust and function on heavy medication. When I hear pastors speak like this flippantly, without addressing the lives of the families of these afflicted souls, it infuriates me to my core.
God can heal illness, even mental illness. Does God always heal mental illness...no, and I've seen first-hand what sin does in a family system dominated by mental illness. I strongly believe that God allows us to endure great, unrecognized hardships to teach us to walk with Him, to depend on Him for everything, to grow closer to Him in this life.
Thanks for speaking out about this, Gavin...countless millions suffer directly or indirectly as a result of shaming people who suffer with mental illness. We need to come alongside them, not use them as "object lessons" from afar.
How did you conclude that John is speaking flippantly and not addressing the lives of families?
We are ALL sinful. He did not suggest that people with mental illness, real or not, are the only sinful people.
@@xbluesaintx Do you object to my use of the word "flippantly?" If so, what are your objections?
@@franceshaypenny8481 I would agree with you on both counts. I neither said nor implied that we are not all sinful. I also neither said nor implied that people with mental illness are the only sinful people. Pls re-read my comment...thanks.
@@brianetheredge7323 I object. He is prescribing something else. Life lived in community. If you've ever done that you know it isn't a flippant request.
I am not a fan of John MacArthur. I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy that anyone should live a life in his community. But I would rather that than the broken social structures we have now. We are medicating the symptoms, but not addressing the cause in most cases of mental health.
This is the same industry, mind you, that addressed gender dysphoria by mutilating human bodies and unnaturally pumping them full of hormones. The medical industry is truly disgusting too. Most medicines are not made in ethical ways. So what's more flippant? Standing by someone, living in community with them or pumping them full of horse piss?
Mental health denial in the evangelical world is WILD. So many are dismissed with one or two stories of “I was depressed then I read the Bible”. Unbelievable.
It is possible, and very much probable that people had been cured from so many problems by reading the Word of God, which is alive and active. Having said that, I wouldn't dismiss a person's situation by saying you aren't praying enough, or you don't read the Bible enough, or you don't believe enough / your faith is weak, or the worse of all, you are not born again, you don't have The Holy Spirit in you.
That's why Biola University has Rosemead Graduate School of Phycology .
By the way it's an Evangelical School that MacArthur graduated from: NOT everyone thinks like he does at Biola.
I don't and I graduated from there also.
@@jw2442indeed people are healed of physical illness through prayer to - doesn't mean that people who die of cancer or heart attacks or have injured limbs that don't fully heal are not praying enough.
This is what is called a strawman
Which is a false Gospel.
Jesus doesn’t promise healing in this world but He is the cure. To suggest that His truth is not good enough for you is blasphemous
I have seen mental health denial and hesitancy destroy people. This is a very important topic that the church desperately needs to not fail people in.
I'm an emergency medicine physician and Christian. I see first hand critical mental health problems: bipolar mania, paranoid schizophrenia, suicide attempts ect. In many cases the patients are bounce backs, meaning they go through the healthcare system over and over because they can't get resolution from their illness and can't function in society. One reason for this is non compliance with medications. Another is going back to their old habits of living. Those patients have true mental illness and I believe need medication to prevent them from harming themselves or others. It is a shame and I've lost sleep trying to understand how God allows this to happen. When it comes to depression, ADD, ADHD, anxiety, PTSD I have noticed many of those people can still function in society but have fractured spirits and need the redemption of Jesus. Their issues are real, ignoring them will not help them. Medications can be a supplemental bridge to behavioral changes but I would argue are not for everyone and not a first line intervention. Mental health is a complex issue and on the rise in America I believe because the culture has turned from God.
I totally am completely agree with you especially what you said at the end
" fractured spirits and need the redemption of Jesus" please Lord... help us all hold on to You and the things You promised
As someone who has a mom with a history of severe mental illness I so appreciate this.
I agree completely!!!! Thank you for saying that!!!!! Mr. MacArthur comes across as a dour stuffy conceited narcissistic smug religious old far_ (the smelly stuff that comes out of people's rear ends). With his view of mental illness he needs to exit immediately.
I've been raised by a narcissistic father... I came across a psychiatrist who spoke about Complex PTSD. For the first time in my life I felt almost perfectly understood. It was as if has been with me all my life. As if he knew me, my father, in person. He described it so well, all the issues I have today.
I appreciate guys like John MacArthur helping people focus on attitudes of the heart, but ignoring the dynamics of brokenness on a fallen planet is exactly what you said, Gavin: bad theology.
Bad theology and lack of love. The older he gets, the more I dislike him.
Wouldn’t that be a lack of love on your part also?
@@shawnlindsey8426 Like and love are two seperate things.
"attitudes of the heart." LOL
John MacArthur's attitude of the heart is to be perpetually angry, judgmental and ignorant. He's an actual Nestorian heretic and has now gone so far over the edge of demonic pride that he's starting to teach that parts of the Bible don't belong there because they disagree with his theology.
So a Babylonian potion is the answer? Good ole Pfizer? Right.
Your response was so helpful and accurate. I am a born again Christian, and I happen to have bad panic attacks that get triggered by speaking in public, including being put on the spot to pray or speak at prayer meetings. I take a medication that helps and because of it, I am able to attend meetings instead of avoiding them (because of vomiting from nerves), and am able to teach Sunday school, speak in front of large crowds at church etc...At one point, I told the women at my womans ministry group I attended, that I wanted them to stop asking me to open in prayer because I had panic attacks and was getting physically ill before meetings and avoiding coming. (This was before medication). Well, these women made me feel like it was my fault for having no faith and that if I had enough faith I wouldn't be afraid. Two leader women who kept saying this both walked bent over with canes and limps. So I asked them, "what if every time you came to church you knew you might be forced to throw down your cane and run fast around the church. And if you refused, it must br because you had no faith. Would you want to go to church? Wouldn't you feel dread and anxiety over the physical pain and torture you were being asked to face week after week???? How much would ypu want to do that???" They finally got it and stopped putting me on the spot without asking if I was comfortable. The brain is an organ, and it gets sick too, just like you said. I'm also a trained mental health counselor and worked years with people with these illnesses that John dismissed. John has an arrogant and judgemental attitude. The truth is that he sees people with mental illness as WEAK and looks down on them. He is a bit of a snob when it comes to his own intelligence and accomplishment, and has become judgement of those he deems to not be as strong mentally as he THINKS he is. Sad. Thinking himself wise, he became a fool about this topic. 😮
Thank you for this honest and helpful testimony.
You are so right on the mark!!!! Thank you for saying this!!!!!!
Thanks for this video! I have schizophrenia and autism, and hearing the foolish advice from some Christians breaks my heart because I understand some of how harmful it is, especially to people who have it worse than me. I exercise often, eat healthy, get good sleep, and I practice intentional gratefulness (I truly am grateful to God for how He has used even my bad experiences to lead me closer to Him). I’m not perfect (especially with screen time, lol). I just wish the church would no longer alienate people suffering with mental illness, or people who are simply different.
According to people like MacArthur, you're just supposed to get over it, stop thinking negatively, I guess.
Thank you Gavin for calling out this false ideology.
Thank you for addressing this important issue. Mental health struggles are real. I’ve benefited enormously from EMDR therapy for PTSD stemming from childhood sexual abuse. I suffered for decades, because I had been under the impression that my ongoing PTSD symptoms were the result of some type failing on my part, especially relating to my walk with Christ. “Why are you still letting this bother you, when it happened a long time ago?” “Let the past be the past, and get over it.” These are a couple of things said to me frequently by my Christian friends. The shame inflicted upon me was just as damaging as the abuse itself.
👆 Yep. Insult on top of Injury
is another kind of injury.
As a veteran and a husband whose wife has ADHD I appreciate your words. I also wish we would distinguish between mental health and Neurodivergence. ADHD actually shows up on brain scans in a physical way which is not the same as PTSD. I think this is an important distinction.
C-PTSD can actually manifest in symptoms mimicking ADHD. I was diagnosed by two separate psychiatric practices with ADHD, with input from decades of observance of me by my mother and husband. Unfortunately, no ADHD medications have helped.
Neurofeedback therapy yielded screenshots of my brainwaves showing a Delta brainwave deficiency in the anterior hippocampus of my brain. The therapist said this is believed to signify “early childhood trauma”. I lost my first mother to adoption as a newborn. Maternal separation, even as newborns (as seen in studies of NICU babies) is a trauma experience. It can lead to hypervigilance in which the amygdala, location of “fight/flight/freeze/fawn”, is overactive scanning a room or situation for safety or signs of danger. This, like a computer antivirus program, is constantly running unseen in the background, diverting some of the person’s attention from the task at hand.
The therapist saw no signs of ADHD in my brain waves. All he saw was early childhood trauma. This explains by the medications weren’t helpful to me.
Thanks for speaking up against this nonsense, Gavin.
amen
As someone with severe PTSD, I absolutely agree that mental illness is very real! There are definitely times where outside help is discouraged in the church. Many times the mental health issue is labeled as a spiritual issue, which is extremely damaging for the one suffering. I’ve been personally very hurt by this teaching. This isn’t just a John MacArthur belief, but also a broad view in the charismatic church as well. I think some in the Pentecostal/Charismatic church may actually be worse than MacArthur with this mentality!!
I also see things from a very unique perspective as well because I have suffered extreme damage from side effects of psychiatric medications. In my case these medications were contra-indicated for my condition, but I was still prescribed them and great damage was done. I have talked to people daily who have suffered extreme side effects from ALL different types of psychiatric medications. In my situation Psychiatry took an already traumatized person and created the ultimate trauma.
I’ve heard horrific stories of people suffering due to false diagnosis and medication side effects. Big Pharma isn’t your friend. They want to make money and they want patients for life. There has been research that has come out recently that proves these studies are rushed to get drug approval without knowing all the side effects. There’s also the chemical imbalance “theory” developed to push these medications.
I do believe the brain is an organ and is susceptible to illness like any other part of the body. I’m NOT against psychiatric medication in all situations and have seen many cases where it was absolutely necessary!! So I’m not saying meditation is never needed, I absolutely believe that is!
I do, however, see a growing trend with about 1/5 of the population on these meds that in many cases are not needed. This is an insane number proving these drugs are being majorly overprescribed!!
I’ve been in the psychiatric system for a few decades and have a very good understanding of how things work. Meds are pushed heavily with some having severe side effects and much needed trauma counseling many times takes a back seat. You’re given pills that will never cure you. These neurotropic medications are to be a temporary tool in moderate/severe mental illness while going through some type of weekly counseling. (A small percentage with extreme mental illness will need them for life) I can tell you personally that these meds(I’ve been on too many to count) will not help you unless the root cause of the mental illness is discovered. They will only mask the problem. I know, I’ve lived it.
If you ask to come off of them, they need to be tapered in most cases. Many Dr’s have never been trained to do this. If you have issues coming off these meds too fast, you may be gaslit into oblivion and told that it’s your original illness which in many times isn’t the case. These are drugs that change your brain and cause neuro adaptations. In my case it has taken years to come off psychiatric medication and I’m still tapering one that causes severe dependence and is not only hard to come off, but also extremely dangerous.
My advice is to do your research before you put any nuerotropic medication into your body. If you decide to take them as a last resort, make sure you’re getting proper counseling. Also, diet and exercise play a huge role in many with mental illness. I had a psychiatrist tell me once that diet and exercise work just as well as Prozac for mild/moderate depression. I believe our highly processed diets and lack of exercise are creating all kinds of physical and mental issues.
Check out Dr. Josef of Whitt-Doerring Psychiatry Medicating Normal on RUclips they’re both secular channels, but they have a wealth of information. Mark DeJesus is a great channel for Christians struggling with mental illness as well. I highly recommend him!
Thanks for this video!! My prayers are with anyone personally going through any type of mental illness. God Bless ❤️🙏🏻
To me, Gavin is teaching worldly nonsense. Just saying.
@jaylinn416 why so? Do you agree with MacArthur that mental illnessses are fake?
@jaylinn416 my comment disappeared. I was just asking you if you agree with MacArthur that mental illnessses don't exist?
I could say a lot more, but I'll say this: thank you, Gavin.
The irony is that MacArthur is known to speak on depravity often... Yet, he doesn't understand the practical reality of depravity as he denies a basic component of our fallen world. His sentiment actually undermines the reality of how broken this world can be, and assumes things are easily fixable within human power as he prescribes, "live faithfully and you'll feel fine." His logic leads back to self-reliance, because things aren't so bad in our fallen world after all. Ultimately, he mistakes proverb with promise, which is the critical error of the prosperity gospel and other similar heretical outlooks.
Yes this 100%. How can we accept that broken bodies are part of the fall but deny the reality of broken minds.
To timarten. Huge amen, extremely well put. I have had this view of jmac for years. That he is just not in the reality of this horribly broken world.
Thank you for making this video, Gavin. I have unfortunately experienced people denying mental illnesses far too many times, and it is so incredibly hurtful. My mother-in-law believes that everything is spiritual, and has shamed me for taking medication for my OCD, and for my decision to medicate my child who has severe ADHD. She believes that my other son who has autism is afflicted by demons, and isn't actually autistic. Thankfully I was firm enough in my convictions that treated mental illness is a good thing, so I have been able to not allow her attacks on me to change my decisions. But she has an adult son with the most severe form of OCD I have ever seen, and he refuses any help from medication or professionals because he believes what his mom tells him. They are both always convinced that the only way to solve this problem is through prayer and casting out demons (and it has been 10 years now of his OCD severely impacting his life). It has absolutely destroyed his life, to the point where he has lost every job he has ever had, and is now too afraid to ever be around people other than his mother. It's just absolutely horrible how destructive this belief is.
I have complex ptsd and am also a born again Christian.
Among the things that torment me are the memories of crying out for help amidst dv and how I was told I just need to be a more submissive wife and give my husband everything he needed.
My husband told me I didn't deserve love because I was so obedient I was a robot, and robots don't deserve love because they aren't human.
The source of the problem was always me, according to both my husband and church leaders. The torment of all of these factors is what haunts me to this day. Isn't this the definition of oppression?
Why would God hate violence and oppression unless it created such harm? He wants us to have a sound mind, and attitudes like this cause the opposite of that. I don't understand why this would be denied, or why the tormented person needs to be vilified instead of helped?
I, too, have complex PTSD, and I, too, am a born again Christian. I’m profoundly grateful that Gavin addressed this issue. I’ve been re-traumatized many times by my Christian peers over large spans of my life. I finally found relief from EMDR treatments.
God bless you and help you through your pain. Yes, many people have an unhealthy obsession with differentiating themselves from the world and ignore that as humans, both saved and unsaved, we have needs in common and illnesses that need treatment. God did not create violence or oppression against the weak, such things come from the evil and fallen heart of the human being. God gives us the benfits of medicine and mental health and we,as His children, have the duty to take care of ourselves. Always remember the words of the prophet Isaiah;
Shout for joy, you heavens;
rejoice, you earth;
burst into song, you mountains!
For the Lord comforts his people
and will have compassion on his afflicted ones.
But Zion said, “The Lord has forsaken me,
the Lord has forgotten me.”
“Can a mother forget the baby at her breast
and have no compassion on the child she has borne?
Though she may forget,
I will not forget you!
See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands;
your walls are ever before me.
God bless you.
@@cqbarnieify
I'm so glad you've found relief from treatment.
I pray you will know that God is always with you, that He will never leave you or forsake you.
God bless you 😊
@@gabrielferreira1531
Thank you. I agree.
May God always bless you in every way 😊
God does not want our sacrifice, he wants our love. He does not want want to continually sacrifice everything we have to someone who is backslidden, abusive and unrepentant.
For that man who says things like that, calling you a robot, that is abuse. He is to love his wife as Christ loves the church.
One who has little soon loses what little he thinks he has. God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.
There are people who only love themselves, having an image of godliness or humility, but they deny the Power of God. They deny the Holy Spirit, in themselves and others.
Thank you for this video Gavin. For years I didn’t understand why people were depressed or anxious until this past year when I was hit with major anxiety. What I learned in the process of getting help was that things like gratitude, meditating on scripture, exercise, sleep, etc. are all helpful to a degree. However, there is a difference between feeling depressed or anxious and having clinical depression or an anxiety disorder. Thankfully, through professional therapy and medication, I was able to get the anxiety under control to a point where the things mentioned above could actually make a difference in my day to day. This learning is something most won’t understand unless they have gone through this themselves. And it can create ignorant responses to serious mental conditions from those who think it’s as simple as engaging in more positive thinking. My encouragement is to get professional help from people who actually understand what you are going through. Not those who don’t. God has given us the blessing of those who are gifted and experienced in dealing with these conditions.
There’s nothing like personal experience to create compassion.
Sounds like you had an intense episode followed by quality treatment + were able to implement helpful spiritual and practical disciplines.
I think there is a real grain of truth in MacArthur’s point, even if his overall message is generally wrong.
So I am Gen Z (I’m 23) and I teach middle schoolers (these kids are twelve and thirteen and are on the tail end of Gen Z). I should add that I teach at a Classical Christian school.
The number of absences from these kids… you would not believe it. I didn’t believe it. Looking at the sheer numbers… there’s a girl with 20 unexcused absences (meaning not due to physical illness). There’s a boy with 17. There’s another girl with (I’m not joking or exaggerating) 34 unexcused absences.
These kids aren’t ditching. Their parents allow them to stay home. Why? What’s the reasoning?
The parents say that they keep their kids home due to … mental health reasons. I hear this all the time. “I’m keeping her home for a mental health day.”
“He had a rough weekend, I’m keeping him home for at least the first half of the week.”
I’m quoting direct emails I got from parents this semester alone.
Mental health is real and mental illnesses are real. I’m not denying that and I will never deny that. I’ve experienced it and I’ve seen others experience it.
What I would like to push back on is “mental health culture,” which is seen as an untouchable way of getting things excused.
Are there extraordinary circumstances where staying home from school is certainly allowable? Yes. Grieving the day or two after a loved one passes. A family member is in the hospital. Etc etc. There’s lots of grace and understanding for those circumstances.
But… in general, you know what’s actually best for the mental health of a preteen??? Encouraging them to go to school! Helping them be fully present! Telling them that doing hard things, facing our fears, being responsible, and doing the work set in front of us is actually a good thing and will help your mental health actually!!! I fear for how these poor kids are going to do in the “real world.” They need to learn resilience.
“Mental health culture” that encourages taking “mental health days” is incredibly toxic and also deeply backfires in the long run. I want to shout this from the rooftops. Talking with parents about this is such a non-conversation too lol. The stuff I see and hear as a middle school teacher…
Wow, yes, "mental health days" are at epidemic proportions. In the workforce, they can't be challenged, and they're still paid. This quickly trickles down into the home. Much prayer needed to address this.
I haven't given John MacArthur much mind, but quite frankly, I'm glad that he said it because now I can completely write him off as any sort of reliable source.
I agree completely!!!! Thank you for saying that!!!!! Mr. MacArthur comes across as a dour stuffy conceited narcissistic smug religious old far_ (the smelly stuff that comes out of people's rear ends). With his view of mental illness he needs to exit immediately.
Amen to that.
Hey Gavin! Thank you for addressing this topic with your usual grace and candor. I struggle with mental health, and have found the church to be damaging in this area. I’m thankful for the way that Jesus has helped me with my depression + OCD, AND I’m thankful for the therapist and medication He’s provided for me to treat them. Similarly, I’ve been told by church people that God can “heal” my autism, but I believe that I’m fearfully and wonderfully made the way that He designed me.
Side note, I am currently studying at a Christian University and for an assignment, my group used clips from one of your recent videos during our presentation. Our professor wanted us to send the link to everyone in the class so that they could watch the whole thing on their own time, and we got an A!🙂
@Emmacookie215 I’m also an autistic Christian! Even though I don’t struggle with depression, I too have had to learn to accept that I am fearfully and wonderfully made. God doesn’t care about things like “Can you communicate properly?” or “Why didn’t you get a job until you were 19?”, because all that matters to Him is your heart. All this to say, I’m really glad to hear that God is helping you with both medicine and His Word. He really is a God of peace and comfort.
@@gavinandersson3625 Hi Gavin! This is so true. I’m so thankful for the way that God loves us so individually. Even when I get frustrated from feeling lonely and misunderstood by everyone around me, I know that He is with me and that He understands me. Blessings to you!😊
Hope you do well in your studies, I am about to graduate in mine to do ministry full time.
Just to let you all know that autistic Christians are very much welcome to Presbyterian churches where they will be welcomed as quite normal with the frozen chosen!
There is a lot of irony here in that MacArthur’s denial of mental illness is not all that different from the very sort of extreme charismatics’ functional denial of any sort of illness in thinking that earthly, physical healing is guaranteed as long as one “has enough faith”…the very sort of functional denial that he has historically decried.
Exactly what I was thinking. He's been very critical of the charismatics, and yet now he sounds just like them, or some of them at least.
Exactly!
this is so ironic since MacArthur wrote a book roasting charismatics for their beliefs in miracles and the supernatural.
Let's remember that Jesus healed with the dirt and spit, to cause a blind man to see, commanded a lame man to wash in the healing waters, and even in the Old Testament, lepers were healed by washing their skin in the Jordan River. Why are these verses mentioned if medicine and doctors are not needed to heal the sick, but the righteous don't need spiritual healing, as Jesus mentioned. And, Jesus called St. Luke, a medical doctor, to be his disciple. I think we need to stick to the Bible!
Well his theology is off anyways so it's no surprise. He's still a dispensationalist
As someone who suffers from PTSD, OCD and Depersonalization Derealization, I can confidently say you’re WRONG MacArthur. Must feel great to ride into this conversation on such a tall horse of confidence. I thank the Lord that you have never had to suffer with such things as “mental illness”. But I can tell you it’s no myth. And for those who suffer, my heart is with you. Thank you Gavin for the push back on this one. It is much appreciated seeing you speak facts that allow for Truth to Unite us in empathy and compassion.
I think he does suffer from mental illnesses, it is called Narcissism!
I agree completely!!!! Thank you for saying that!!!!! Mr. MacArthur comes across as a dour stuffy conceited narcissistic smug religious old far_ (the smelly stuff that comes out of people's rear ends). With his view of mental illness he needs to exit immediately.
Gaving, I really commend your gracious tone in your critique of John MacArthur, who is not just a giant figure, but has contributed a lot to the spiritual health of the Church across the world. It's easy to write off someone just because of their Biblically inconsistent views on a few pastoral issues. But your criticism was more about the misconceptions of mental health than about MacArthur. This is such a godly response to someone who could be wrong or share different views than us. Thank you for modeling that for your viewers brother.
Thank you so much for this video Gavin. I deal with anxiety and OCPD & my husband has ADHD, and it was *only* by the acknowledging of these things that have allowed us to be better individuals and spouses to one another with God’s help. I can only imagine the harm to myself and my husband had we vehemently denied this. Also, I’d just like to point out that the “mental health denial” is a huuuuge issue within the (older) Hispanic evangelical community. My own parents are the rare minority that acknowledge mental health, but for the most part it’s highly denied and over-spiritualized (“that’s just a demon” or “you haven’t prayed enough”).
His words make me sick. As a Christian with panic disorder and ADHD things like this are so disheartening and I feel so sorry for his congregants that struggle with mental health issues.
I agree completely!!!! Thank you for saying that!!!!! Mr. MacArthur comes across as a dour stuffy conceited narcissistic smug religious old far_ (the smelly stuff that comes out of people's rear ends). With his view of mental illness he needs to exit immediately.
Thank you so much for this. This ignorance needs to be called out. It's dangerous. Depression isn't merely a focus on things that are negative! Symptoms can be things like difficulty communicating, and moving more slowly. Your explanation about the brain and medication is so clear and helpful. Thank you for your careful study and devotion to the body of Christ!
It's too bad that McArthur has such influence then, because he's bringing the church back decades w/ this thinking. Scripture doesn't cure mental illness. Pastors have committed suicide. These are harsh realities. Depression is a very demonic affliction, and you can't just think your way out of it. The brain is not functioning properly.
Thanks for talking about this, Gavin.
This needs to be spoken about.
Thanks Gavin! From all those I know who struggle with these things, we love and appreciate you for pushing back against this.
Thanks Gavin,
In 2006 I had my first psychosis. I thought I could do without medicine and about a year later I had a new psychosis. It ended with me being rushed to the hospital, almost bleeding to death. Since then I have taken antipsychotics and I function quite well, work part time etc. In 2010 I was saved by Christ. I thought my psychological problems would go away. They didn't.
If I stop taking my medicine I have no idea what I will get myself into. As far as I know my medicines keep me from early death. Psychosis is that serious! It is just not something you can handle by changing your thoughts. MacArthur has no idea what he is talking about. It's sad he makes such comments that might actually lead someone to stop taking the medication and hurt himself or someone else. God bless you Gavin! Christ love! ✝️❤
I agree completely!!!! Thank you for saying that!!!!! Mr. MacArthur comes across as a dour stuffy conceited narcissistic smug religious old far_ (the smelly stuff that comes out of people's rear ends). With his view of mental illness he needs to exit immediately.
I suffer from depression and other conditions and his comments are a slap in the face to those who suffer ! I can’t function sleep , focus , enjoy a sunset with out my meds . i emotionally I hate life .with meds I can laugh at cute cat videos enjoy sunsets and enjoy people.
Thank you so much for addressing this, Gavin. It has been so discouraging how the church has handled this issue. I think they often forget how living in a sinful world and sin done to us, especially as a child, has profound effects on how we develop physically and mentally. It is as if they don’t have a high enough view of the consequences of sin! I often am surprised how much the world of psychology, actually lines up with Scripture. Sins talked about in scripture all have measurable effects on a person: anger, lying, abuse, provoking your child to anger, not being faithful to your spouse, favouritism, harsh speak, sexual immorality, impatience, neglect…the list goes on. These all have been noted as having negative and harmful effects on the brain and body that psychology can measure. For me, this only helps confirm the Scriptures reliability.
@audrey 👆 Yes and Amen
Scripture certainly illustrates dysfunctional families & the
consequences of sin + the consequences of dysfunction.
Christ clearly instructed that
Children need to be treated
and raised properly. Mental
Health research is congruent
with Scripture and confirms
Truth & Love protects, prevents
and helps heal.
We are fearfully & wonderfully made. Human body systems
are extremely complex + what
unites the systems is complex.
So much could go wrong.
Geneticists report that every generation has more mutations
aka imperfections /vulnerabilities.
We are fearfully & wonderfully made. Our bodies also naturally protect, heal & compensate
for glitches. Some bodies need extra nourishment and medicine.
Some need extra spiritual help.
Those who aren’t suffering are often quite VOID of compassion, knowledge & willingness to either
get informed or get helpful.
I once listened to a story about a
person who was suffering - oh, so very much because an adult sibling was found dead by suicide.
Everyone was saying “it’s not your fault” + providing an abundance of support.
The whole TRUTH = dead sibling was seriously mentally afflicted.
Family’s response was to ignore,
neglect, shame, give uninformed
advice, be dismissive & detached.
Once in awhile, a hit & run favor
done, “but X didn’t appreciate my “sacrifice”.
MacArthur’s attitude & recent message reminded of that story.
“Snap out of it; Get right with God;
Self-pity is a sin.Fear is sin. Worry is sin. Have more faith. Pray more often. Pray more fervently. Read this. Listen to that.
Everybody has problems. Go to Person X for help. What’s wrong with your mind is x, y, z. It’s was nice when we weren’t there, when we weren’t thinking about you or talking about you.”
I want to SCREAM to those who are themselves UN-touched by afflictions, up on pedestals.
“Come down, roll up your sleeves,
Get interested. Get educated.
Get Involved. Get invested.
Grateful that Dr HERE addressed
MacArthur’s destructive words.
This is such a fantastic and important video, Dr. Ortlund. Thank you for taking the time to make it.
I really appreciate the library of resources you are building. I regularly share these videos with people who are struggling. They edify me, and they help others, too. Thanks, Gavin!
I couldn't agree with your conclusions more. I'm a pastor of 28 years. Also, i had an extremely abusive upbringing as a foster kid who took kids in for money.. As a result, I have a lot of issues due to my childhood. Due to my background, I've devoted more time than most to helping those with PTSD and mental illness. Yes, there is a lot of ignorance about these issues. The former pastor who denied mental illness performed an exorcism on a girl who was schizophrenic and another with disassociate identity disorder. I believe that, at times, psychiatrists and medicine may be necessary . I also know that a good sleep schedule, healthy eating, good friends, perhaps a little Nutra-calm and a good friend, and some good old-fashioned pastoral counseling can be incredibly beneficial.
Ok, at this point John MacArthur just needs to retire.
30 years ago
I agree completely!!!!! Thank you for saying this!!!!!! Mr. MacArthur is a dour stuffy pompous narcissistic religious far_ (the smelly stuff that comes out of people's rear ends). He needs to exit, he is not uplifting to look at.
I agree with you. Book knowledge is one thing, practical experience in dealing with people who suffer from trauma, etc., tells otherwise.
The funniest part about this, as a therapist with an education from a Christian university, is saying my whole career is a scam lol.
I have a family member who has struggled with serious mental illness for close to 20 years. She is a devout Christian - more steadfast in her faith than most people I know. She searches the scriptures, prays, studies great hymns, etc. It’s deeply discouraging when Christians in leadership positions say there is no such thing as mental illness. It discourages treatment and furthers the idea that people can just pray the schizophrenia away…and that theres no point in seeing a doctor or taking medicatiom. That only makes things worse.
This is so insightful. Thank you. My husband and I have worked for a ministry that comes alongside folks with mental illness, and we also come from families where there is quite a bit of mental illness. In fact, my husband, who is the most godly, committed, prayerful Christian I know has wrestled with severe panic attacks and OCD. Praise God we also grew up in Reformed churches that encouraged getting medical care and Christian therapy because we were taught that God's common grace means that we can learn truthful and helpful things from non believers and 'secular' sources.
So thankful for what you say here Gavin.
Thank you Gavin. Your kind response to this not only encourages those who do seek professional help, but for me personally, your comment “professional help should be a supplement to the normal healthy routines” was a great reminder that I need to take care of my body and my health.
Subscribed. My friend Kerwin shared this. Thanks for sharing. God is using your content! Because, He's reminding me the truth past the lies I fall into.
Thank you for this. I've struggled with ADHD, unexplainable depression and anxiety. I remember feeling at the end of my rope on day and I cried out to God for healing. Immediately after that prayer he lead me through a series of events that helped reveal my mental issues were related to an autoimmune condition called CIRS/PANS. Now I fortunately know the triggers (foods and mycotoxins) and can avoid them giving me the ability to live like a normal person. It helps to be aware of what's going one. If I have an flare up and the anxiety, depression, and hopelessness returns I can always work through it by reminding myself that this is just a symptom of the flare ups and it'll pass when it's over. This has also been helpful information for my husband. No longer does he worry I'm that way sometimes because of something he did/didn't do. He just knows I'm going through a flare up and he can support me by giving me a hug and getting me back into an environment that'll help calm my immune system down. There's real power in knowing the root cause of illness.
Love the explanation and application of “common grace.” This is not something I’ve heard a lot about! Helps to redirect appreciation toward God to keep this in mind!
I have talked with a very well thought of conservative retired pastor who changed his thoughts on this issue. He humbled himself and showed others that humility is a wonderful characteristic.
Medical depression and PTSD are very real. If it wasn't for a intuitive pastor sending me to a wonderful doctor who was also a faithful christian also I honestly don't think I would be alive today.
Johnny Mac can say what he wants but it doesn’t make it gospel, as many would think. I’m a Christian, 💯🙏✝️❤️ but I suffer from PTSD, ADD, chronic depression from chemical imbalance and general social anxiety, all of which I’m diagnosed and medicated for.
I’m in a great church, I have great support and all that good stuff…but this stuff is still real. I trust fully in The Lord.
I pray that Johnny Mac can see the error of his message and apologize to us all. Medicine is a gift if God, as well as doctors and other medical workers.
🙏✝️❤️💪💪😀
Thank you so much, Gavin!! As a sufferer of depression, anxiety, panic and fear brought on by bacterial infections (some that cross blood brain barrier), what you shared is invaluable to me and I would imagine to so many others. The Lord has brought to me a wonderful Biblical Counselor during this time who has also validated many of the things you have just shared. I would love to see you continue ministering on the topic of mental illness .
In addition, my husband suffers from PTSD as a result of wartime combat. It is real❤
Thank you again!!
JMac is the same guy who listened to Piper speak of his depression and responded with bewilderment because he didn’t understand it . I’d say he should stay in his lane , but he’s flawed there as well .
Name me ONE Christian who DOESN’T have flaws.
Apparently arrogant ones believe they have no flaws
@@Psawyer555 Well thank goodness you’re not one of them, right? #checkyourownego
@@thegothamite128 I actually believe mental illnesses exist. The brain is an organ last time I checked.
@@thegothamite128 good point
So true. There is so much need in our world to address the problem of depression. Blessings
when I listen to John MacArthur the scripture in 1 Corinthians that reads " knowledge puffs up while love builds up" comes to mind. He teaches with an air of arrogance. To singularly dismiss the multitudes of professing believers who struggle with depression as those with a morbid consistent focus on the negative is the height of hubris! Let alone the poor souls with schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, autism, etc. He would do well to meditate on James chapter 3. Thank you Gavin for your thoughtful response to his teaching. You always speak with humility and conviction. I appreciate your ministry.
"Just stop being depressed!"~John MacArthur
🤣
God gave us doctors for physical illness, and doctors (counsellors etc as well) for mental illness as part of His common grace.
With young people, let's think more about prevention rather than cure. It is heart breaking to see so many young people needing these interventions from doctors. The answer for them is staring us in the face: they need to have no smart phones, no social media, and a lot more time outside with other young people. Prevent as much as possible! That's not to say if everyone did this no one would have mental illness, but to me it's like smoking. Some people smoke and don't get lung cancer, some people don't smoke and still get it. But the link is undeniable and action can be taken for our young people.
Thanks for addressing this. I'm shocked to find this attitude in the church, maybe I've been sheltered in good churches that have taken physical and mental health seriously and whilst attaching no blame or shame.
We really need to talk about this more in the church.. I must admit until I suffered severe mental health trauma I never understood.. if you have suffered encourage other Christians that it isn’t disgraceful to be ill. An acceptance may help us in recovery and/or management..
Ty I have complex trauma . I can’t imagine how you could shame people. The church is one place we should receive love and counsel.
My wife and I taught and loved patients for 12yrs at a lockdown medical facility and it is real...This guy has all the answers(Macarthur) Spurgeon struggled with depression, Luther struggled with depression David and other writer's of the Psalms struggled with depression Jeremiah wrote Lamentation's... Either he is not being honest or he dont care about nothing and his emotions have grown cold. This is a dangerous perspective with no compassion. Jesus groaned in the garden. I know MANY saints who have struggled with depression. Something not right... No fear of man
Indeed they suffered. Were they completely holy? No. None of us are and it seems to me that exactly our fallen nature gives rise to various conditions. Psychiatry cannot solve it.
@@jdkayak7868 of course there may be sickness that has symptoms. I mean even if you are really tired you see things somewhat differently from when you are full of beans. It has a cause. Now I think what John is saying that "sickness of the soul" needs to be treated by a cure..the Word of God. And typically the "cure" is quite opposite to what the Bible teaches. Thinking now of "don't get mad, get even". This is just the opposite of what the Bible teaches. But even these "guidelines" comes at a price.. real faith in Jesus Christ and having come to faith. It is not a "step 1, 2 etc,"
Exactly. Bless you 🙏🙏❤️❤️
@@Andre0757 the thing is that a most of psychology is not a mystery anymore, especially after more research on the brain, how certain events affect people's lives, the ACE test, and how physical symptoms relate to each diagnosis.
Especially the ACE test makes it sick that McArthur and others look at mental health as only personal sin, the ACE test proves that the vast majority of people who suffer from mental issues were severely abused as children, something McArthur himself will pay the price for on judgement day not protecting Eileen Gray's kids in his church.
They suffered depression, yes. But the psychology industry is magnifying this. No one, not even McArthur is ignoring this. But as it seems, the solution is not where psychology wants us to believe
I am in the middle of this issue. On the one hand I am all for common grace, technology and secular treatments IF they actually work. On the other hand when it comes to mental health, I lack trust in our institutions, that they were able to produce reliable medication.
1. They seem to research with false assumptions in the background. With determinism and materialism as base assumptions, much of the research is biased and can lead to more harm than good.
2. I am skeptical of "Big Pharma". I understand that this is something people bash their heads over, but looking into the history of these cooperations and how they manipulated research and education in the past, to sell stuff, that makes you feel better short term but also addicted long-term, makes me skeptical about much that comes out of these institutions.
But this has nothing to do with shaming people, who see this differently and trust these institutions. If you do, go for it. I don't and I would look elsewhere for help.
You're right that the research, especially for mental health treatments/medications, is terrible. It's bad in countless ways.
Thankfully the drugs have been in use for so long now we know that they work and we know what the side-effects are.
Ozempic is far scarier than an SSRI or SNRI imo. I'm far more worried about its overprescription than I am antidepressants.
I’m close with a couple people who take medication for mental illness. For one, it is debilitating anxiety. Her doctors noted that the prescription medication is not the ultimate solution, but rather counseling/therapy. Medication is simply there to give you enough capacity to allow therapy and counseling to help you address core beliefs, patterns, and tendencies that often underlie, and can exacerbate mental struggles.
@@trenthorton9532 If the doctor is prescribing her benzos, she is trading one problem for another that will be indescribably worse down the road.
@@merg-vh5sxexcept that we don't know how SSRIs work, that came out a few years back, the mechanism by which we always thought they worked was wrong. That's a concern.
Also now we know that SSRIs can cause PSSD and anhedonia that can last many years after use has stopped. In Europe now its law for this to be printed on all the inserts, I don't believe this is the case in the US, yet.
So even drugs we've used a long time can still throw up serious concerns.
@@littleboots9800 I'm with you in that we don't know how *any* psych meds work. It's true and it's down to devaluing those with mental illness. This is thankfully changing now that pretty much everyone's unwell, and doctors are almost being... cautious with psych meds compared to how they were in the fairly recent past. It's also true that new side effects have been publicised fairly recently and I guess, if someone wants to be careful, avoiding SNRIs for a decade or two might be a good idea.
It's just some mental illnesses are serious enough that meds are needed. The benefits outweigh the harms in some cases, and psychotherapy alone can't always 'cure' or adequately ease human mental suffering.
I say this as someone who's very critical of pharmaceutical companies. I actually despise them. Unfortunately sometimes they're useful.
Thank you for sharing this and bringing awareness to a taboo topic that many churches unfortunately don't address.
I use to go to a Pentecostal church where mental health was ignored and people were victimised for having a mental illness. I shared with my Pastor about being diagnosed with ADHD and doing tests for Autism. He told me that I don't have ADHD and changed the subject each time I talked about mental illness.
I felt alienated by those who should've shown support and compassion.
Since I left the church, read the bible more and 2 Corinthians 12:9-10 tells me - “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.
Therefore my ADHD is not lord, Christ is Lord. My mental battle belongs to him.
Wow what a shame from MacArthur. I've never been very interested with MacArthur, but he's been bringing a lot of damage to the church for some time with a lot of his odd legalistic views.
I wish the MacArthur worshippers would wake up!! This man… and that is all he is, causes a lot of damage for people of faith.
In Calvinism, there is literally nothing except God. Good, evil, righteousness, sin, elect, non-elect, joy, mental illness, pain, pleasure, nihilism, determinism, fatalism... It is all happening in the mind of God to the glory of God.
There are some who have an image of Godliness, but deny the Power of God--to heal. I think MacArthur is a closet Atheist, he's just keeping up his image as a Christian to keep selling his books. A pastor who does not lead his flock but to rocks from which no water ever flows.
@@lizh1988what would someone gain for being a closet atheist though? I get he’s an arrogant piece of work but doesn’t He know how bad Hell will be like if he doesn’t believe what he preaches???
In my own experience I was only depressed when I didn’t have a relationship with God. I had no hope in certain seasons bc the main thing on my mind when I got alone was if there is no God there’s no real meaning to things. And can also attest to becoming more thankful and expressing gratitude pulls you out of slumps as well. A lot of it is affected by your thoughts. Not saying MacArthur is completely right but he’s not completely wrong. Especially with your first statements with younger generations it’s bc of a lot of thing that could be changed such as technology addictions, things you consume (food and drink), drugs, certain music and movies, not being thankful but always comparing and being covetous. Just some thoughts.
Your experience is all good and fine for mild slumps, but doesn't address chronic deep depression that has a hormonal or biological imbalance as its source.
John MacArthur is saying there is no PTSD, whereas in World War I it's a known fact that soldiers experienced "shell shock" and the atrocities and ravages of War mentally affected people in harmful ways.
Try being happy or undepressed when you're watching people be blown to bits, and you are trying to unalive people as they unalive you.
Gavin,
As I said before " you are, the man"
Again you nailed another ' 95 thesis' against the wall of the stoic church, which is not just populated by creaky scotsmen...
The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to convict but also " come along side...
this ~ you not only understand but you practice ...blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.
So, you put your mark in the sand-and thru this medium goes out the clarion call to follow the Lord, He who binds up the broken-hearted. Isaiah 61 and 53, baby!
Stay strong, do battle and find repose.
Thank you for standing up for me pastor Ortlund, i suffered from anxiety disorder, Adhd and depression for more than 15 years now and am still taking medication(antidepressant) i cannot imagine without the help from my doctor or the medicine probably i wont be here today, thank you and God bless
MacArthur is part right in the sense that in modern days these mental health issues are over diagnosed due to pressure from big pharma. But he's also wrong in saying they don't exist at all. They exist, but not to the degree it is diagnosed. Heck, even today people are self-diagnosing as a trend on social media.
So I would encourage carefulness in saying everyone who says they're mentally ill is, and likewise encourage against saying there's no such thing.
Fun fact, John Macarthur has been on this train for a while. I remember him talking about not believing Piper to his face about Piper being severely depressed in the past.
Another side note while I'm at it. Very strange that he holds this view when PTSD is documented throughout history, well before big pharma and psychologists were around.
Yes, there is victim mentality and over diagnosis. At the same time some people really suffer.
You are totally right about this.
And so we should thread carefully ad in all things
Could be over diagnosis or could be something about our modern way of life that actually increases mental health problems.
@@gareth2736 Combination of the two.
He’s not part right when he’s denying psychological diseases outright. Denying their existence is far different from recognizing they’re overdiagnosed, and it creates a church culture that’s hostile toward those who suffer from diseases of the mind.
@@gareth2736It's both. I know a Christian RUclipsr who was prescribed antidepressants for burnout. When he tried to get off the meds, it was worse than the burnout.
Gavin, thank you for your courage and insight. This was a balanced response. It included both practical and spiritual help. Shame and fear can be crippling. Grateful to the Lord for your heart as a pastor and fellow pilgrim. May the Lord continue to use you for his glory and our growth in Him.
Gavin, I have followed you for quite some time and love so many of your videos! This was one of my favorite listens! For so long, I believed that mental illness wasn't really a true thing, and when I came to know the Lord personally in a very conservative evangelical context, those beliefs were reinforced. However, a recent bout with anxiety and depression completely changed my mind that not only are mental illnesses a real thing, they can truly make you feel trapped and scared, and the typical advice of "Trust in the Lord" and "practice gratitude" don't work the same when your mind is in a different space. Praise the Lord for your entire ministry Gavin, and I can't to see how the Lord uses you going forward!
Thank you so much for addressing this
Thank you so much for sharing the words of wisdom! God bless!
For myself, all other veterans who suffer with PTSD, and all victims of trauma who suffer with this ... John MacArthur should get to experience about a week inside our heads! Unfortunately he is wrong on his assessment of mental health issues. As an ordained minister of over 30 years with a degree focused on physiological psychology... and ... being a veteran who suffers from PTSD ... I can say this with confidence. When he spends a week or so with dreams that make him dive out of bed at three o'clock in the morning or that wake him up in cold sweat screaming in such a way it scares the entire house ... or ... has to sleep with the TV on so he doesn't hear every creak and snap in the house at night to where he is on high alert and his wife has to move her bed to another room .... then he can talk about PTSD and mental health issues.
Although not a veteran, but someone who has a PTSD diagnosis I can fully relate to your symptoms.
Thank you for making this video. Rooting out anti-intellectualism from the Church is essential to apologetics. So many people I meet view Christians as stupid because of beliefs like MacArthur is espousing in this video.
Tell it, brother, tell it. And I am not being sarcastic. MacArthur is downright detrimental to the prospering of the faith once delivered.
Not all Christians are anti-intellectual of course. In my church we have a number of Professors, many PhDs and a large number of students studying various highly academic subjects, as well as lots of ordinary folk with a good dose of common sense. It really makes me mad when Christian leaders pontificate on subjects of which they know nothing about, and neither have they experienced.
@@petercollins7848 my church is similar to yours, Peter: loaded with Ph.Ds. I have a brutal medical condition for which I have found administrations of very small doses of cannabis indica to be immense help in enabling me to sleep.
A lot of churches would implode at the news that they had a member like me. My church sees cannabis as one more thing which God created, which can be used for bad reasons, but can also be used for good.
Forty years ago, no one dreamed that cobra venom could be used to decrease wrinkles, and forty years ago, cannabis was viewed by almost all Christians as the Devil's crop. So few Christians seem able to come at a problem objectively.
Since MacArthur has the view of mental illness which he has, we know how he would view experimental treatment of treatment resistant depression with judicious amounts of psychedelics. You probably know that such research has been going on for twenty years. It has had remarkable results for a lot of people.
I like what you have to say. I went to Grace. It caused so much damage to me. I had to leave. It has gotten worse. Glad to be going to a better church.
Thank you so much Gavin. The stigma in certain Christian circles around mental health issues is real - it's what kept me from pursuing medication for anxiety for so long, but when I finally did, I wondered why I didn't do it sooner. Meds don't fix everything, but they help enable me to have the awareness and energy to do the work to process through my anxiety and depression.
Gavin!! Thank you! You keep me sane! I can get discouraged hearing stuff like this. I’m so grateful that you are someone that I can turn to and send people to for reasonable conclusions. I can see that you truly love your fellow Christians. Thank you!
Someone needs to gently, but firmly lead MacArthur off the stage. It's over.
True. But he wasn't all that great to begin with (e.g. preaching the "Curse of Ham" to his church from Genesis 20-ish years ago...)
@@robNObeard He really taught that?
I agree completely!!!! Thank you for saying that!!!!! Mr. MacArthur comes across as a dour stuffy conceited narcissistic smug religious old far_ (the smelly stuff that comes out of people's rear ends). With his view of mental illness he needs to exit immediately.
Couldn’t agree more!
Not so gently is fine with me.
Great job with this video, man! There's a lot more to say, so I've been addressing aspects of this in my recent videos.
I will join the chorus of the many who said thank you for addressing this. I was saddened and mad at the casual statement that " there is no such thing..."
MacArthur’s The Master’s University and Seminary (TMUS) has videos posted on its RUclips channel in which John Street, chair of the graduate program of biblical counseling at TMUS, teaches that a spouse should endure abuse like a missionary endures persecution.
“The abused victim is the key player in reaching and changing the abuser,” said Street in the lecture. TRR
With this kind of theology, how do you expect them to have any compassion for those suffering from any kind of psychological trauma? I mean, the abused/traumatized should just endure and get over it! trauma is part of life!
He does not expect CHRISTIAN men to be responsible to keep being Christians. They get to backslide into unbelief and not having Christ as their head.
If a man goes to church, he is expected to love his wife as Christ loves the church, and be willing to die for her. But John expects it to be the other way around, that the woman should be the moral and spiritual support in the family.
It's true that if two people are unbelievers and married, and if the wife becomes a Christian, she MIGHT be able to win him over with prayer and Godly living.
But if she married a Christian, believing man, and he starts sinning by physical, mental, or verbal abuse, and he is given two caring warnings but does not repent-- then she is better off without him. Because Paul said: "if a man is known as a believer but is abusive, do not even eat lunch with such a person".
MacArthur reads the Bible to support his way of life, but he does not have compassion. He is not following Jesus.
We need a rigorous explanation of how our brain (in the physical realm) relates to our soul and other spiritual beings (the non-physical realm).
The view I’m reaching is that a healthy brain defends us against real spiritual attacks, so mental illness is not always the result of demonization (though it certainly can be the result of it), but it definitely opens us up to more demonic attacks.
We certainly should _not_ reduce mental illness merely to physical causes-nor should we look only for physical solutions. Many mental illnesses can only be suppressed but not cured by medication.
@@JustADudeGamer I think the notion of only looking for physical causes and solutions is where we most depart from Scripture. I agree manipulating the physical realm can help. But we shouldn’t think just like secular naturalists.
@@JustADudeGamerthe latest research indicates that somehow, antidepressants encourage the brain to produce the substance which promotes brain healing, and that that explains their ability to do marvelous things for people. Read the book, Breaking Through Depression.
The problem with the medical industry is that it mostly just worships "science" which, in the modern sense, completely denies the existence of a "soul" whatsoever. They believe basically that all problems are simply "physical" and can be "fixed" and the concept of a soul is much too abstract for them.
@@bobtaylor170 I’m 100% good with medicine helping heal our brains. I’m just saying we shouldn’t rely on it exclusively, maybe even primarily.
@@matOpera look, brother, when I was seven, a suitcase b*mb which FBI chemists concluded had been built with six sticks of dyn*m*te and which shook the ground so severely it was felt a mile and a half away sent a shockwave moving 25% faster than the velocity of a b*llet fired from a .22 caliber revolver through my brain. Somehow, I wasn't k*ll*d.
In that same moment, I got a leg bl*wn off, almost lost an arm, got an eardrum bl*wn out, got my clothes b*rned off, and was pounded with so much shrapnel that fifty seven years later, an X ray showed to my astonishment that there was still a lot of it in my leg.
And you would treat this primarily with talk therapy?
I hope you won't think me rude, but you simply do not know what you are talking about. If it weren't for Ritalin LA, Wellbutrin, clonazepam, and - wait for it - cannabis, which I vape at bedtime on the instructions of my neurologist, I would be in a nursing home.
My late clinical neuropsychologist told me a decade ago that he and my neurologist were amazed that they ever met me, because in their view, I should have been in a nursing home by age twelve at the latest.
I had to be given a pint of bl**d when I was injured, though I had lost more than a pint, because a child can't be given more than a pint; more than a pint will congest his red bl**d cells, and k*ll him. At best, I had a 50/50 chance of surviving twenty - four hours.
And you think talk therapy can salve receptors which are screaming, "PHYSICAL AGONY!!!!"?
The whole "talk therapy" notion for coping with brain disease comes pretty close to gnosticism or maybe Christian Science. It fails utterly to take into consideration the doctrine of the Fall. There is little Christian about it. I'm all in favor of psychotherapy for trauma survivors. I got it forty - five years too late. I learned a lot about TBIs in children. I thought then and think now that my neuropsychologist may have known more about the subject than my neurologist, who is first rate.
But without medication, and a lot of it, I couldn't remain in this world.
I'm sorry to have to use all the asterisks. I want this to get past the algorithm, which, of course, is an idi*t.
Thank you Dr. Gavin! Greetings from Brazil!
Gavin, I love how kind and loving and smart you are❤
I agree with much of what brother MacArthur says, but he definitely missed the mark on this one. Not that there isn't some truth to what he's saying, but I wish he would rethink this opinion.
No, sorry, there is zero truth to what MacArthur said.
It's ironic that he is so dubious about physical healing through prayer/laying on of hands but has a simplistic faith in spiritual practices solving mental health problems far greater than many hyper charismatics.
Thank you Gavin, I barely left my house for years when my anxiety was at its worse. It’s so real
Thanks for seeing us a whole person. You were right on target in this video. Thank you!
This is a very good approach to mental illness and one I think more Christians need to adopt. I especially appreciated your explanation of 'common grace' There is certainly a lack in our culture (especially in modern evangelicalism) towards this teaching. I would love to see more videos related to this issue. Have a wonderful day Dr. Ortlund!
I knew someone who had OCD so badly it made them constantly doubt their salvation. Before diagnosis they were miserable, and the church berated them for their "unbelief". Now that they are diagnosed, they still struggle but at least the church isn't making it worse anymore. A lot of the advice that was received was the last thing someone with OCD needed to be done. It made the condition worse. There was no empathy when ppl believed it's was only doubt.
The issue is not empathy. Empathy means you can detect the feelings of others. But here we are speaking about causation of painful feelings. And these can be the result of faulty beliefs. So the counselor detects your feelings (empathy) & he may or may not really care about your suffering or feel your pain (sympathy).
Now if you have OCD, is it not clear that the Lord Is not saving you from OCD? And if you have OCD, are you not having a delusion, a faulty belief that you believe with intensity? And is not the Lord obligated to save you from such faulty beliefs if you trust Him?
@@lufknuht5960 What the heck?
Well, Calvinism doesn't help, either.
This anxiety is baked right into the system: "What if I am not among the elect? What if God decreed my nature so that I only believe now that I am saved and later I may turn my back on Him, only to realize I never was one to begin with?"
This being said, Gavin is one of the nicest Calvinists I know. (I don't believe being one or not being one renders one saved or not.) I'd like hear him in an exchange with a Provisionist like Leightn Flowers.
How does he explain that none of the Fathers in the past believed in the predestination in the sense Augustine lately suddenly "discovered" it, as an ex-Gnostic? And not call it an accretion.
Forget reading Paul with Calvinist lenseses...the exegesis of Romans 9 and other such "Calvinistic" proof-texts make less sense than the Catholics' claim to Papacy.
Anyway...I just cracked this can of worms and I intend to leave it this way. No, Calvinism does not make sense unless He is nothing more than a powerful demon - as C. S. Lewis put it.
@@szilardfineascovasa6144calvinism doesnt teach we should be afraid of election. It shows us that our salvation is in Gods hands. That we don’t have to look in ourselves for salvation but we are elected in Christ. So our salvation is based on His work for ever who believes in Him
@@Yoran87935 I think you should, first, read carefully what I said. Then, go and read carefully the Calvinistic sources.
You misinterpreted both, and ended with a paradox - an internal contradiction.