If you are going to say "Bonhoeffer was a heretic," please give a citation from his works (or other documented evidence) to establish this claim. Merely repeating this assertion does not help anyone if it is not documented. And if it false, it tarnishes the reputation of a fellow Christian. For anyone interesting in the defintion of heresy, my recent video might be of interested entitled "What is Heresy? (When to Use This Term)"
Gavin, I love you and you're a smart guy, but before demonizing Hitler every 5 seconds, do some historical revisionism on WW2 and realize how much propaganda we have been indoctrinated with by the same people he was dealing with at the time
Bonhoeffer says of the historicity of Christ’s tomb, “This is and remains a final stumbling block, which the believer in Christ must learn to live with in one way or another. Empty or not empty, it remains a stumbling block. We cannot be sure of its historicity.” Ibid., 112. I don't know if passages like this are alone convincing, but Bonhoeffer often talks like this, and it's been my impression reading his lectures that he does not believe the events in the Bible were historically true, but only spiritually true. Regardless, God bless you Gavin.
@@TruthUnites see Richard Weikart “scripture and the myth of Dietrich Bonhoeffer” fides et historia (which is free online, just a google search. Weikart has a book as well on the topic but the articles makes the point as well.
Hi Gavin, I really appreciate your videos! An article online called "THE TROUBLING TRUTH ABOUT BONHOEFFER’S THEOLOGY" by Richard Weikart cites multiple points in Bonhoeffer's works that are problematic. The article appeared in the Christian Research Journal, volume 35, number 06 (2012) if that helps you find it. Blessings!
“Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either -- but right through every human heart”. - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
And then Solzhenitsyn went full speed antisemitism, nationalism and basicaly has helped built foundation for current russian weaponizing of religion, history and nationalism
Man, does the Church in America, on both sides of the political isle, need to hear this review. I am so thankful for your ministry, heart, and mind for the Lord, Gavin!
Agreed. Problem comes when people in power, appear to like the man, his thoughts, his words, his ideas. When our grandparents’ generation said “never again”, this was their warning to us. So, let’s also not be complacent and dismissive, when history starts to tell us “I don’t think you’ve learned this lesson well enough yet”. Remember, Germany was a well educated country that had western democracy, until they did not.
That same line hit me pretty hard. I'm going from memory, but I think it was, "I made my choice 12 years ago. Even before I fully understood what it meant."
Exactly. Came here to say this. It's like a Christian Nationalist Bingo card: [Opponent] is Nazi Bonhoeffer punched nazis The church needs to [buy my book] The church is asleep The church sings louder when the trains roll past Bingo
The quote at 19:07 is interesting because it implies that we should follow his advice; however, I ask, did Christ passively watch or did Christ speak out / act? I recall Christ overturning the tables in the Temple; intervening to save a woman caught in adultery, rebuking pharisees and sadducees; calling all men everywhere to repent, etc. Of course this led to Christ being killed by the state, as was Bonhoeffer. I will follow Christ not Bonhoeffer. I have read Bonhoeffer off and on over decades, and what I have decided is that he is just a man, where Jesus Christ is Lord and His example is perfect.
It also seems to go against what Bonhoeffer did. He was resisting evil by protecting Jews, collaborating with the allies and resistance fighters, etc. Preaching that Christ is Lord is resistance to evil.
You're missing the point. Bonhoeffer called to account the same type of religious authority "sold" for power and authority as Jesus. But religion fears accountability while Jesus did not.
But we should also remember all the injustices Jesus did NOT act against. At the time Israel was occupied by a foreign, pagan power. Jewish people were subjected to humiliations every day. When Jesus came to Jerusalem on the back of a donkey, he was welcomed as the Messiah who would deliver the Jews. But when he was captured, apparently incapable of taking action against the things the Jews were actually angry about, he was abandoned. I’m not saying Christians should not speak out against the status quo! But things Jesus “took action” against were spiritual, not political, and I think we forget that too easily.
@ wrong. Jesus’ act of riding a donkey into town to accolades was precisely political. It was symbolic however, a mocking of earthly power. Christians get that entire story wrong all the time, just like the Nativity and much of Jesus’ teaching. Dull disciples surrounded him and persist to this day.
A solid wisdom religion can be referenced when a wrong was done by those of that religion. Christianity has enough amongst the faith traditions to say certain evils were done and we can say it was wrong, like slavery of American Indians and Africans, abortion, anti-Semitism, etc. There are black legends used against each other that were half-truths and lies that involved a non-wrong or embellishment. Mr and Jesus really results in Jesus giving us a thumbs up on what we think is right. What is right in that regard and upon what? It’s too subjective.
The reason, I think, so many divergent groups look to Bonhoeffer as justification for resistance is not so much a misunderstanding of Bonhoeffer but rather a misunderstanding of the Gospel.
I think the reason is the flip-side of those who accuse “you’re just like Hitler.” The posture, “I’m just like DB” is a moral authority claim to standing up against perceived evil. Not a gospel problem, a moral relativity problem.
HOw can embrace of the Scripture -- sola scriptura -- lead to misunderstanding? Doesn't it guarantee everyone who believes in it to UNITE in TRUTH -- one TRUTH? God does not contradict. Please explain.
@@ChristopherCudworth Is the Holy Spirit that schizophrenic? THE TRUTH can be conflicting? Victoria Osteen in Houston-"woman pastor" -- wife of Joel Osteen's megachurch -- can preach Jesus was a mere ordinary man till age 30, when God the Father then made Jesus DIVINE - ALSO from SOLA SCRIPTURA, and this is just as good as Jesus was DIVINE from before time. How do we reconcile this? Who determines the TRUTH -- which denomination or nondenomination? SO who determines Bonhoffer is a heretic or not a heretic then? Yet many here seem to easily have the authority (whose authority) to declare Bonhoaeffer a heretic.
Dr. Ortlund: a question I think you’d be able to help with is this: what do we do with Bonhoeffer’s heretical statements? Do we consider him a heretic or do we see it as just the context of him going crazy
Dscussions like this always remind me of James Russell Lowell's poem written as a protest of the War with Mexico. He was also a staunch abolitionist. This is just the first stanza. I encourage you to read the whole thing. it gives me goosebumps because it is so descriptive of our own times...."and the choice goes by forever." Once to every man and nation Comes the moment to decide, In the strife of truth with falsehood, For the good or evil side; Some great cause, God's new Messiah, Offering each the bloom or blight, And the choice goes by forever Twixt that darkness and that light.
Great video; several comments. Firstly, on the inspiration to join causes and stand for what you believe: "The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of the mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." -J. D. Salinger Secondly, it is very important we judge men (and literature, and everything) in their context, which is well highlighted in this video. Thirdly, I suggest to viewers, if they are interested in topics such as this, reading H. Richard Niebuhr’s book "Christ and Culture" (published 1951) wrestles with different views on how involved the church should be in socio-political and cultural matters. Lastly, as Gavin suggests, rather than only reading or watching content about Bonhoeffer, read his works. "The Cost of Discipleship" is very compelling, as well as his "Ethics". To not do so is like reading only Bible commentaries but not the Bible itself. The Hollywood-ize versions, as much as they can be enjoyed for their thematics, never do full justice to the ideas behind the men and women they depict. Blessings all!
I agree that Niebuhr's "Christ and Culture" is must-reading for the development of Christian worldview in the context of other Christians with different worldviews. Understanding how we approach society and government in different ways explains why some people charge into politics while others stand back.
@SibleySteve Gavin's recommendation in another video "The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion" by Jonathan Haidt is another good read, though less "christian" than Niebuhr.
I wonder if a lot of these debates and comments, intended or not, are to water-down and secularize the act of true martyrdom, to the point of making martyrdom worthless or even nonexistent. Even Gavin says, really, most martyrdom these days are the "boring chores of life." Interesting that most if not ALL denominations don't think about or talk about martyrdom these days (and I don’t even know if they even talked about martyrdom during the days of the Reformation in any real appreciative, referential way), yet profess to have the same faith of the early Christian martyrs of the catacombs. There may soon be a day, when actual real martyrdom asking us to deny the faith, in order for us to access our money or buy food, be in public, or even practice our faith publicly, etc.. and let's see how modern day Christians will response, when there is so much comfort in our Prosperity Gospel, and that God will rapture us (rescue us) from any real martyrdom. The mentality now is that, the servants should enjoy, and be greater than the master. Jesus is not of the Cross. Believers now only fixate on the glorious resurrection (I guess it is easier to swallow and sell to converts and at Sunday service sermonizing). Despite the fact that all the disciples (including Matthias who took over Judas' position) all martyred. The embrace of the Cross is likely gone from most of the denominations and nondenominations as a true spiritual reality. The servants are not greater than the Master, but many of our words and perceptions seem to point to the "faith" that we servants ARE greater than the Master.
Wonderful, thoughtful review. Perhaps because I knew a little about Bonhoeffer before seeing the movie, I didn’t interpret that his theology on murder and authority had changed. It was said in the movie, something along the lines of “could God forgive us?”-in the assassination attempt, and Bonhoeffer replied, “Will he forgive us if we do nothing?” Though I’ve never experienced anything near what he and his peers experienced, I can appreciate that sometimes we feel that we are faced with circumstances that seem to have no “good” or “godly” choice. In those circumstances we must seek the Lord, through His Word and prayer, and trust our soul to Him. I love that you point out the sin on both sides of the political isle. May we only bow down to King Jesus, and never any man or ideology! ❤
As usual, a very thoughtful and relevant post for us today. I saw the film and also found it inspiring in many ways. My main concern with the film was it seemed to make Bonhoffer's activities in support of the Jews his central aim in resisting the Nazi regime. There is a reason Yad Vashem has not recognized Bonhoeffer as a righteous Gentile among the nations. He was not an integral part of Operation 7, but played a peripheral role. The film presents him as escorting the Jews in a dangerous mission to Switzerland. He wasn't on that journey. Bonhoeffer's views of Jews were complicated, at best, as historians have documented in detail. It seems to me that Bonhoeffer's main concern was the Nazi regime's corruption of the church and Christianity, which entailed the corruption of the entire country. In this way I think the film most directly mischaracterizes Bonhoeffer. What is most remarkable to me about Bonhoeffer is that, despite his, in many ways, traditional (and anti-Judaic) views of the Jews, he recognized the problems of his theology and acted based on his ethic of love to do something to overthrow Hitler and his regime. Thanks again for the thoughtful video. You're doing great service for Christ and His Church.
At first, I discarded a criticism that came forth regarding the movie, but I had several days to think about it. This is timely, and it helped me to be more careful of discarding gut reactions and hasty conclusions. Thank you for this. It helps with my review of the movie as I talk about it with my peers.
Simply phenomenal Gavin. The clarity of your language feels like well-codified Biblical wisdom. I was fortunate to study Hebrew Poetry and Wisdom under your brother Eric, and you both have such effective framing and parsing through ideas. As someone who sees Bonhoeffer as one of the great giants of the faith in the last 5 centuries, I share his family’s and scholarly community’s concern over the co-opting of Dietrich’s life and deeds for political justifications that I believe he would very well oppose. It saddens me that this will be the extent of many believer’s exposure to his extraordinary life and discipleship practice. The very notion of him carrying a gun on the poster speaks to distortion, not of narrative compression (as you so rightly point), but to the spirit of his Gospel ethos. Iconography matters deeply. My dad’s entire side of the family are Orthodox Jews; he’s the only Christian in his immediate family. We have relatives who died in the Holocaust. I find it ironic that rather than people using the Third Reich’s rise to look inward and see how such power and evil gains foothold in hearts, they desire to be on the “right side” of history by assuming their opponents must be analogues for such a threat. And therefore destroyed at all costs. I consider myself truly bi-partisan-I don’t think allegiance to Jesus allows me to line up cleanly with either party (in a deeply-flawed 2-party system). If it does, chances are I’ve made something of Christ and the Kingdom in my own image. But I can’t help but feel parallels now, where members of the Church find themselves in socio-economic groups that feel politically disenfranchised, and as a result have venerated a morally reprehensible figure in the name of being “saved” from their predicament. (Or, what they see as greater evil from the other political side). One who has co-opted Christian iconography parasitically. And yet, I still will not use the term Nazi for that. Let’s reserve that for the literal Nazis who are still alive, well, and self-professing. I struggle deeply to know how to speak to evils the Church at times lets in, in the name of politics, while not closing the door to conversations with people who think differently than me by doing so. I appreciate your sobriety in speaking as you do, and your courage to continue so in the face of very aggressive, bad-faith opposition I see hurled at you regularly. Thank you for your work.
One of the very common critiques of Bonhoeffer I see coming from the right is that he didn't believe in the virgin birth or historical resurrection of Christ. I haven't actually seen specific quotes that back up these claims and I suspect this comes from an overly simplistic reading of Bonhoeffer, but I'd love a video that explores the extent to which this critique is either true or false.
What's "the right"? I consider myself far right nationalist, but I think I never heard such a claim, and fail to see why it would be connected to my liberalistic views and love of nations, or politics in any shape.
@MortenBendiksen I am saying that it is a critique of Bonhoeffer made by some of those on the right, theologically speaking. By "right" in this context I mean theologically conservative, Bible believers. Those who are theologically liberal typically wouldn't be concerned if someone doesn't believe in the miraculous. Thus, this critique of Bonhoeffer is one that predominantly comes from those on the theological "right". Hope that makes sense.
I don’t follow Metaxas so seeing his Tweet(s) was kind of surprising, but I suppose fits well into this video’s subject of “using Bonhoeffer to one’s own end.” That being said, I did read the Metaxas biography of Bonhoeffer years ago and enjoyed it simply because of it being an extensive recount on his life, but my question is (to someone with more memory of it) if there’s any places or angles where Metaxas does use Bonhoeffer to his own end throughout the book.
A very useful review! I've already seen the movie and i tend to largely agree with Dr O and certainly appreciate his comments on questions of historical accuracy. And i, as was Dr O, very moved by the movie at times. I got a little verklempt at certain points. Yeah, the movie was very well done, especially coming from a small studio. No huge, flaming Michael Bay moments, but a powerful story of war, courage, and sacrifice that was narritively driven forward in an exciting and moving way with the Christian message always front and center I'm glad that I saw this thoughtful review and glad that I saw the movie. There's a good and very timely message in it.
Dr. Ortlund, I know you say you're not an expert on Bonhoeffer but maybe you could enlist your more informed colleagues to help address some of the outrageous claims against him. I have heard so many accusations against Bonhoeffer as a heretic lately (not just in this comment section) and all of the sources people give seem to be dubious conjecture at best. At most it appears he just said some unnecessary, self-contradictory things sometimes (turns out he was human) and I would bet that most of his accusers have never even read any work of his in its entirety. It's wild to me how much this idea has blown up in the theological corners of the internet. At any rate, I think it's worth addressing. Thanks for all that you do!
Hey Gavin, completely unrelated I love the work you're doing for the kingdom and really appreciate your love for others! Who have been most influential on your kind heart and breadth of theological knowledge (apart from Jesus!) 🇦🇺
I would suggest following Bonhoeffer in a Christ-like way, not necessarily a Bonehoeffer-like way. All our heroes, except Jesus are imperfect. That seems to be the best way to avoid either of the negative historical examples cited--and to so to the greatest degree with the least risk or blowback.
Off topic, but it’s thanksgiving: Gratilogical argument When a grateful person conceives that there is gratitude, he has it in his understanding, but does not yet understand it to be, because he has not yet given it. But after he has made his thanks, he both has it in his understanding, and he understands that it exists, because he has given it to another. Gratefulness that we understand to exist is greater than gratefulness that only exists in our understanding.
Bonhoeffer intrigues me very much partly because I have had such a hard time finding a denomination that makes sense to me. I tend toward Anglicanism for cultural reasons, but I don't really have a church to attend at the moment. I was not aware that so many people were using Bonhoeffer in modern times, or that there even was a film (looks like I haven't been paying attention...). But his theology itself is interesting to me. Among others.
Most denominations today fall into the quintessential Protestant denomination/nondenomination quagmire -- the same state that a Cafeteria Catholic is stuck in. Pick-and-choose -- and if you are smart, and articulate, you can convince yourself that it is a good choice, and Holy Spirit-guided. Maybe if you get a PhD like Gavin, or you shout as loud and with hubris like James White, you have more say and more authority. DId Paul have a Ph.D.? A calm man like Leighton Flowers sounds a little more reasonable. WHo has the bigger AUTHORITY (sounds like locker room measure stick). There is in the end no real AUTHORITY, but a lot of human hubris. End result, over time, a secularization or stripping of anything reverential, holy or truly spiritual in faith.
I don't think there's been a pastor that's had this much of an impact on me spiritually, thank you Gavin. I want to lose my life for the Lord's greater design. I desperately want what you've mentioned throughout this video. 🙏🏽 Praise God
I wonder if a lot of these debates and comments, intended or not, are to water-down and secularize the act of true martyrdom, to the point of making martyrdom worthless or even nonexistent. Even Gavin says, really, most martyrdom these days are the "boring chores of life." Interesting that most if not ALL denominations don't think about or talk about martyrdom these days (and I don’t even know if they even talked about martyrdom during the days of the Reformation in any real appreciative, referential way), yet profess to have the same faith of the early Christian martyrs of the catacombs. There may soon be a day, when actual real martyrdom asking us to deny the faith, in order for us to access our money or buy food, be in public, or even practice our faith publicly, etc.. and let's see how modern day Christians will response, when there is so much comfort in our Prosperity Gospel, and that God will rapture us (rescue us) from any real martyrdom. The mentality now is that, the servants should enjoy, and be greater than the master. Jesus is not of the Cross. Believers now only fixate on the glorious resurrection (I guess it is easier to swallow and sell to converts and at Sunday service sermonizing). Despite the fact that all the disciples (including Matthias who took over Judas' position) all martyred. The embrace of the Cross is likely gone from most of the denominations and nondenominations as a true spiritual reality. The servants are not greater than the Master, but many of our words and perceptions seem to point to the "faith" that we servants ARE greater than the Master.
Tonight at adoration I picked up the book "The Cost of Discipleship" in my church library. After getting only a few pages into it, I decided to look Bonhoeffer up on youtube. I had only heard about the recent movie, and the titles of the reviews were rather unsettling. I got to yours second, which saved me some time searching. The short time I spent in the book was enough to convince me that your review was closest to the mark. God bless you, brother.
Did not enjoy the movie as they tried to set a record for “most flashbacks ever.” I’m pretty familiar with his bio, and still I was flummoxed more than once thinking “where and when are we now?”
I hope the title of this video doesn’t discourage people from seeing this film. This is a fine review but many will not take the time to watch. There has been massive push back on this movie from the progressive German church today and I hope this movie breaks records and keeps it in cinemas for weeks.
Thank you for posting this Gavin. The Cost of Discipleship, read so many years ago was soul crushing to me in its exposure of how shallow a man that I am in comparison. What would you think Bonhoeffer would have spent his remaining life writing - if he had survived the war?
While tragic, in hindsight his death probably saved him from witnessing everything he preached against worsening all around the world. Dude probably would have fallen into depression upon witnessing everyone across all isles, all religions, and all directional political leanings all over the planet weaponizing churches and religion for violent agendas.
I wonder modern day Christian denonimation/nondenominations' attitude and lack of belief despite mouthing Lord, Lord, and only God, only God has secularized the act of true martyrdom or even stripped it into nonexistence. Even Gavin says, really, most martyrdom these days are the "boring chores of life." Interesting that most if not ALL denominations don't think about or talk about martyrdom these days (and I don’t even know if they even talked about martyrdom during the days of the Reformation in any real appreciative, referential way), yet profess to have the same faith of the early Christians of the catacombs--the martyrs that are there in the hundreds and thousands in the first 4-5 centuries. There may soon be a day, when actual real martyrdom asking us to deny the faith, (just say "rainbow color is great" for example ) in order to access our money or buy food or have work, etc.. and let's see how modern day Christians will response, when there is so much comfort in our Prosperity Gospel, and that God will rapture us (rescue us) from any real martyrdom. The mentality now is that, the servants should enjoy, and be greater than the master. Jesus is not of the Cross. Believers now only fixate on the glorious resurrection. Despite the fact that all the disciples (including Matthias who took over Judas' position) all martyred. The Cross is likely gone from the denominations as a true spiritual reality. Martyrdom is no longer a profession of faith, or an INTENSE SPIRITUAL passionate love for God, but martyrdom is a HUGE inconvenience to our Christian lives.
Thank you for your review on Bonhoeffer, Gavin. In knowing a lot on German Protestant history, which includes Bonhoeffer, Dietrich actually was very conflicted in assassinating Hitler. He definitely knew something needed to be done but pulling a trigger was not a natural inclination for him. That bomb suggestion to England never happened though he did want the allies to win. One other German theologian I probably like more than Bonhoeffer is Franz Delitzch, which directed theology back to a Hebraic continuity. If the theological seminaries in Germany would have followed the direction of Franz, Germany would have never gone in the direction of the Nazi party. Lutherans slipped so far into liberalism and higher criticism in the late 1800s that it really led to the philosophy of Nazi to be more receptive by mainstream Germans.
I didn't realize this movie had been made, but thank you for reminding me about Bonhoeffer. This video struck a chord for me, especially regarding the relationship of church and state, because lately I have been learning about the abortion abolitionist movement. This may be something you would be interesting in looking into as well. It is not, as I initially thought, a movement of radical lunatics. In fact it's entirely based on what you might call theological retrieval. These folks went and looked at what the 1800s slavery abolitionist movement was doing and asked what we can learn from them. There are some explanatory talks by a historian/activist T Russell Hunter. A recent one was entitled "William Wilberforce against the 'Gradual Abolitionists'". I'd be interested to know what you think of his methods.
I am truly grateful that God sees the heart and understands because without His grace , I know I wouldn't have known Him or been able to walk with Him all my life
Great video, friend. I appreciate your measured take on this, and I think you succinctly nailed communicating something that has eluded many people, including myself.
“The confusion of ontological statements with proclaiming testimony is the essence of all fanaticism. The sentence: Christ is risen and present, is the dissolution of the unity of the scriptures if it is ontologically understood... The sentence: Christ is risen and present, strictly understood only as testimony of scripture, is true only as the word of scripture.” - Dietrich Bonhoeffer Seems like he didn’t believe in the historical resurrection. Thoughts?
All of reality for Bonhoeffer must be understood by the resurrection of Christ. Further, his last dispatch of prison is confidence in the resurrection and Christ's atonement.
I never understood embellishment with portrayals of historical figures, especially when they are accounts of Christians, accounts many would assume are told by fellow Christians. Part of what should have been my formative years as a young Christian was at a Baptist church that was heavy on altar calls and testimonies. I found out prominent members' testimonies were heavily embellished for dramatic effect, often with the pastors' encouragement. I questioned their integrity after I found out. Truth is important.
I think this is very well said. I watched this movie recently and was a little concerned when Bonhoeffer's friend insists that pastors should not be involved with violence, and Bonhoeffer seems to just brush him off. Glad to learn he was very careful in how he approached this in real life!
I preached this past Sunday (which happened to be my birthday) and used his distinction between Cheap grace & Costly grace. Prepping that sermon was like hugging a cactus but it was necessary.
Kudos to you. These days, there are just so much cheap grace and cheap discipleship; no sense of martyrdom (no cactii these days)--just all about what I can get from God , how I can prosper from God.. It's all about me me me ... just me. No Gospel of Discipleship; No Gospel of Christ Crucified. Only Gospel of Prosperity; only Gospel of Glory. Not what is due to God--yet ALL the shouts claim to be God-centric : God alone, all about God. Nobody likes hugging cacti for God these days. Lord, Lord, keep the cacti away from me--let me live comfortably and with Prosperity.
Right?! Democrats are way more evil than Nazis, with 100 Million+ dead preborn babies under their belts! Nazis were never so evil as to advocate for abortion for any reason up till birth.
One key detail that they left out until the end, was the fact he was Lutheran. They zeroed in on the Baptist influence to where you wouldn’t have known he and the church in Germany was Lutheran until the credits. Another key detail they left out, was in his first sermon that they showed him preach, was what Lutherans celebrate every year, known as Reformation Sunday, which would have made it more obvious they were Lutheran. Instead, it was just the “confessional church.” That’s another example of turning him into our own image.
I have not seen the movie yet. But the trailer was of immediate concern to me because they tried to paint him as more involved with the assassination attempt than he actually was. My concern is that in an atmosphere of hatred in politics, it may give license to certain people to become assassins for glory. That may sound far fetched, but with hatred driving politics in this country, and the unhinged rhetoric, it could happen.
Gavin, at marker 17:38 you have on the corner a photo of the book Bonhoeffer and Resistance: The Word Against the Wheel. On the lower left you misspell the aithor's name with a "Y." It should be DeJonge. (Though it may be pronounced like "Y" if the author is German.)
While you are correct about the spelling of DeJonge’s name, you misspelled “author.” Not trying to troll but just thought it was ironic in your critique of Gavin.
Putting a gun in the hands of Bonhoeffer is no surprise. The pursuit of faith by force entered the Christian domain via St. Augustine. I present the details of this turning point in my new series: ruclips.net/p/PLm7bwglzlZg7Y5n1MEXsJbhQAiP2JpTtp&si=fty5x4boExPBpP0A
And excellent and thoughtful commentary. Bonhoeffer's comments regarding Leadership delivered just two days after Hitler became Chancellor in 1933 might merit our special attention. It is likely that by 1933, Bonhoeffer had read Mein Kampf and understood Hitler and what he stood for. And yet Bonhoeffer's 1933 observations on leadership have a gentle empathetic tone almost as if Hitler could be persuaded and redeemed. In his message, Bonhoeffer portrays the leader and those he leads as being drawn into a personality cult feedback loop, in which the led want an idol and the Leader succumbs to becoming that idol, and thus becomes "the misleader" (der Verfuhrer). If the movie portrays Bonhoeffer as becoming a man of violence, then, I have to see that as either a tragic mistake or as the recounting of a moral and spiritual tragedy, in which Hitler may have claimed another spiritual victim. I will read DeJonge's book. Thank you.
I think the point of Bonhoeffer was he learned that a love of church isn't the love of Jesus. After all, the church turned it's back on Bonhoeffer and turned their back on faith in its hour of real testing. Much of the movie is about him and his pursuit of being a theologian. And when he was faced with the fact that he didn't have a conversion story, it challenged him and his faith. His conversion marked a direct change in two things, passiveness and understanding of the Bible. Historical references in the movie refers to his brother being involved in attempts to take out Hitler. The question is, did Bonhoeffer die for the church, or did he die for Jesus? I would say the movie presented it as the latter.
Great analysis. I was hoping you'd comment on Metaxas' biography of Bonhoeffer, and also why both conservatives and liberals tend to "claim" Bonhoeffer. I'm looking forward to seeing the film.
Sometimes it is necessary to stand by our principles when confronted with something new. However, sometimes this confrontation makes us realize that our principles were not rooted in the fullness of reality, and they must be changed. The fact that both of these path can be correct depending upon the details is what makes it so hard.
Thank you so much brother for this. I really enjoyed his story and still learning more. I saw the original movie that was made in the early 2000s, with my wife, and it was very inspiring as a believer who is a military veteran, history nerd, and love for discipleship.
Read the early church fathers. They may be inconvenient for you and make you challenge your beliefs. On another note, thank you for this review! It makes me want to see the movie and pay attention to the lens that it is being portrayed through.
Gavin, I really appreciate how in your videos your pastoral gift really shines! I feel like a life lesson always comes through your videos. Your channel is one of my husband and I’s favorites!
Thanks for the work you do!! While I whole heartedly agree that we should not easily use the “Nazi” label, it may not be quite right to say the Nazis were ‘uniquely evil,’ as the evil therein is just an expression of human evil, which is perennial. Have you seen the film, A Hidden Life?
I’m wondering if Bonhoeffer’s Christianity is more of the WWJD variety? We must do this because it’s what Jesus would have done. WWJD is actually more in line with liberal Christianity, even though it was fashionable among American Evangelicals for a while (like so many fads…”I Found It” and “He Gets Us” being two other examples).
Enjoy your content about relevant modern culture! Havent seen the Bonhoeffer film yet, but hope to watch it soon :) It is inspiring to think about how he made a difference in his time, to be sure.
So far this is the first reflective, rational response to the Bonhoeffer film. I have been reading what i have been experiencing as reactionary reviews from both ends of the political spectrum. Among ng my Christian community , Ive been most concerned about the apparent lack of discernment shown. Which assumptions do I recognize I bring with me to anything I read, watch, hear? What have I understood about Hollywood after decades of movie-going? What do I know about B. after reading his writings or what might I be led to check out by reading for the first time? I thoroughly enjoyed the film, recognizing first that it is NOT a documentary. I love that you drew out the pisitive aspects we Christians can lean into, as well as the literary freedom of the film. I could say more but will stop. Thank you for how you shared as much as what you said.
Here's the issue about the term NAZIs. They didnt begin by committing atrocities. They began as a small group that wanted to Make Germany Great Again. There is a cautionary tale there.....even Lucifer began as an Angel of Light
Very interesting and just the sort of critique I was hoping for with the sort of comment about the most recent Bonhoeffer film that I feared ... and this comes from me, an educator (myself) who became very interested in Bonhoeffer and spent an evening in my dorm room with Eberhard Bethge at Union Seminary where I was a student from 196601970.. Thank you.
I just saw the movie and I thought it was a beautiful and moving film. From what little I know, I think the film's liberties were meaningful and understandable creative decisions. I think the backlash is completely unhinged. Apparently, a bunch of Bonhoeffer scholars condemned the film before they even watched it. A prominent German news paper described the ensuing controversy thusly; "The resistance fighter is now becoming an idol for violent Trump supporters. German and American theologians are protesting against this." Did they watch the same film that I did? No, because they didn't watch the film....I understand that Bonhoeffer's legacy is complex, but this controversy seems unhinged!
What is ORTHODOX" to you -- ? 20th century evangelical or early CHristian orthodox ? Interesting how our reference point for what is orthodox is so easily movable to agree to our own sensibility. Is the center of truth -- US?! Or is the center of Truth -- the TRUTH . Maybe well-articulated Gavin can spin contemporary 'faith' into orthodoxy too. Would the early CHristians look at your beliefs and say, "hey you are one of us" or would they say, " Hey, are you from URANUS or something.?."
@@Mary-re7gd because the same thing’s happening to the church in America and the nation too. Does that help you connect the dots? And Christians exhibit the same denial now as back then. Look at the comments here. “He’s a heretic!” Same damned thing over again.
Gavin, you spoke of Bonhoeffer's courage. I thank God for your own courage. I know that our situation is not as difficult and dangerous as Bonhoeffer's. Still, it takes courage to publicly teach a view on a secondary issue that is a minority view among your own group. The group I'm referring to is theologically conservative evangelicals. I've seen you do this. Whether or not you're right on any particular secondary issue is not the point I'm making. The point I'm making is that within our own group it does not usually take a lot of courage to teach against something like liberal theology or the LGBTQ agenda. We should teach against those things. They just are not things that take a lot of courage to teach against most of the time. But when we seek to gently and respectfully correct what we see as errors on secondary issues within our own group - well, that is harder. May God continue to give you (and others!) that kind of courage in that kind of situation whenever you need it (and may He help you to be right, even on secondary biblical issues, which are still very important even if not worth dividing over).
Tyvm for the review. My read of church history is that the great theogians of the church bring truth and vitality to the church, but all too often become caricatures in the movement they found. Would Calvin like calvinism, Luther Lutheranism, or Wesley Methodism?
Gavin thank you, very useful. Do you think that Erick Metaxas is making a mistake in dennouncing pastors that are not fighting the political battle as he does?
Reach out to Eric Metaxas. While the film isn’t directly based on his biography, it did inspire it. I think you guys having a discussion about this would be fantastic.
As I carefully thought through this movie, I was moved in some ways. What I really listened for was a clearly presented message of Christ, His death for man’s sin and His resurrection and faith in Him for salvation. We look at Paul’s life in Acts and we see him being persecuted for the Gospel. I didn’t hear this message in the movie. I appreciated the movie and I thought it was well done. It however never presented the Savior clearly. It may be that Angel productions did not see the gospel clearly since it is not Christian but Mormon. Their gospel is not Biblical so I’m not surprised it was not clear.
I've read Eric Metaxas book Bonhoeffer which was a great read and obviously well researched. In the book you can tell Bonhoeffer is wrestling with the idea of being involved in the assassination attempt on Hitler. Perhaps the movie doesn't send the same signal in the way that idea was portrayed? I haven't seen this film yet but plan to sometime.
If you are going to say "Bonhoeffer was a heretic," please give a citation from his works (or other documented evidence) to establish this claim. Merely repeating this assertion does not help anyone if it is not documented. And if it false, it tarnishes the reputation of a fellow Christian. For anyone interesting in the defintion of heresy, my recent video might be of interested entitled "What is Heresy? (When to Use This Term)"
Gavin, I love you and you're a smart guy, but before demonizing Hitler every 5 seconds, do some historical revisionism on WW2 and realize how much propaganda we have been indoctrinated with by the same people he was dealing with at the time
Bonhoeffer says of the historicity of Christ’s tomb, “This is and remains a final stumbling block, which the believer in Christ must learn to live with in one way or another. Empty or not empty, it remains a stumbling block. We cannot be sure of its historicity.” Ibid., 112.
I don't know if passages like this are alone convincing, but Bonhoeffer often talks like this, and it's been my impression reading his lectures that he does not believe the events in the Bible were historically true, but only spiritually true.
Regardless, God bless you Gavin.
@@TruthUnites see Richard Weikart “scripture and the myth of Dietrich Bonhoeffer” fides et historia (which is free online, just a google search. Weikart has a book as well on the topic but the articles makes the point as well.
Hi Gavin,
I really appreciate your videos! An article online called "THE TROUBLING TRUTH ABOUT
BONHOEFFER’S THEOLOGY" by Richard Weikart cites multiple points in Bonhoeffer's works that are problematic. The article appeared in the Christian Research Journal, volume 35, number 06 (2012) if that helps you find it.
Blessings!
@@delance3721 you cited ibid, but there no preceding work -- would be grateful for a proper citation -- thanks!
“Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either -- but right through every human heart”. - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
@@JW_______ great quote! 👍
And then Solzhenitsyn went full speed antisemitism, nationalism and basicaly has helped built foundation for current russian weaponizing of religion, history and nationalism
@@jaty2189and he was right.
@bobbobberson5627 you are russian nazi, too?
@@JW_______ and if every human heart "feels" different? Then its all equally valid?
Man, does the Church in America, on both sides of the political isle, need to hear this review. I am so thankful for your ministry, heart, and mind for the Lord, Gavin!
*Aisle
Unless we're sending all the politicians to live on an island, the Political Isle, which actually sounds like a pretty good plan!
Everybody we dislike isn't literally Hitler.
And everything isn't about WW2
You're literally Hitler, how dare you.
Right, but there is actually a legitimate comparison to Nazi Germany and the Totalitarian regime of the Left.
Agreed. Problem comes when people in power, appear to like the man, his thoughts, his words, his ideas.
When our grandparents’ generation said “never again”, this was their warning to us.
So, let’s also not be complacent and dismissive, when history starts to tell us “I don’t think you’ve learned this lesson well enough yet”.
Remember, Germany was a well educated country that had western democracy, until they did not.
I agree. Over 63 million dead babies is worse than Hitler. Imagine having a higher kill count than the holocaust that’s pretty evil
That same line hit me pretty hard. I'm going from memory, but I think it was, "I made my choice 12 years ago. Even before I fully understood what it meant."
I suspect Pastor Bonhoeffer would be displeased by how often his name is “pimped” for some cause. My guess is he would point us to Jesus.
Exactly. Came here to say this.
It's like a Christian Nationalist Bingo card:
[Opponent] is Nazi
Bonhoeffer punched nazis
The church needs to [buy my book]
The church is asleep
The church sings louder when the trains roll past
Bingo
The quote at 19:07 is interesting because it implies that we should follow his advice; however, I ask, did Christ passively watch or did Christ speak out / act? I recall Christ overturning the tables in the Temple; intervening to save a woman caught in adultery, rebuking pharisees and sadducees; calling all men everywhere to repent, etc. Of course this led to Christ being killed by the state, as was Bonhoeffer. I will follow Christ not Bonhoeffer. I have read Bonhoeffer off and on over decades, and what I have decided is that he is just a man, where Jesus Christ is Lord and His example is perfect.
It also seems to go against what Bonhoeffer did. He was resisting evil by protecting Jews, collaborating with the allies and resistance fighters, etc. Preaching that Christ is Lord is resistance to evil.
You're missing the point. Bonhoeffer called to account the same type of religious authority "sold" for power and authority as Jesus. But religion fears accountability while Jesus did not.
But we should also remember all the injustices Jesus did NOT act against. At the time Israel was occupied by a foreign, pagan power. Jewish people were subjected to humiliations every day. When Jesus came to Jerusalem on the back of a donkey, he was welcomed as the Messiah who would deliver the Jews.
But when he was captured, apparently incapable of taking action against the things the Jews were actually angry about, he was abandoned.
I’m not saying Christians should not speak out against the status quo! But things Jesus “took action” against were spiritual, not political, and I think we forget that too easily.
@ wrong. Jesus’ act of riding a donkey into town to accolades was precisely political. It was symbolic however, a mocking of earthly power. Christians get that entire story wrong all the time, just like the Nativity and much of Jesus’ teaching. Dull disciples surrounded him and persist to this day.
A solid wisdom religion can be referenced when a wrong was done by those of that religion. Christianity has enough amongst the faith traditions to say certain evils were done and we can say it was wrong, like slavery of American Indians and Africans, abortion, anti-Semitism, etc. There are black legends used against each other that were half-truths and lies that involved a non-wrong or embellishment.
Mr and Jesus really results in Jesus giving us a thumbs up on what we think is right. What is right in that regard and upon what? It’s too subjective.
The reason, I think, so many divergent groups look to Bonhoeffer as justification for resistance is not so much a misunderstanding of Bonhoeffer but rather a misunderstanding of the Gospel.
Exactly. Within the movie, Bonhoeffer changed his ideals of the church to faith in Jesus.
I think the reason is the flip-side of those who accuse “you’re just like Hitler.” The posture, “I’m just like DB” is a moral authority claim to standing up against perceived evil. Not a gospel problem, a moral relativity problem.
HOw can embrace of the Scripture -- sola scriptura -- lead to misunderstanding? Doesn't it guarantee everyone who believes in it to UNITE in TRUTH -- one TRUTH? God does not contradict. Please explain.
@@ANg-1298 because misinterpretation, literalism and legalism lead to lies.
@@ChristopherCudworth Is the Holy Spirit that schizophrenic? THE TRUTH can be conflicting? Victoria Osteen in Houston-"woman pastor" -- wife of Joel Osteen's megachurch -- can preach Jesus was a mere ordinary man till age 30, when God the Father then made Jesus DIVINE - ALSO from SOLA SCRIPTURA, and this is just as good as Jesus was DIVINE from before time. How do we reconcile this? Who determines the TRUTH -- which denomination or nondenomination? SO who determines Bonhoffer is a heretic or not a heretic then? Yet many here seem to easily have the authority (whose authority) to declare Bonhoaeffer a heretic.
Dr. Ortlund: a question I think you’d be able to help with is this: what do we do with Bonhoeffer’s heretical statements? Do we consider him a heretic or do we see it as just the context of him going crazy
What heretical statements did he make? Idk much about Bonhoeffer.
what do you take to be his most "heretical" statement?
@ I was told he denied miracles and the virgin birth in his prison letters. Am I mistaken?
@@redeemedzoomer6053surely you have a bunch of examples?!!
i'm seeing he denied the resurrection
Dscussions like this always remind me of James Russell Lowell's poem written as a protest of the War with Mexico. He was also a staunch abolitionist.
This is just the first stanza. I encourage you to read the whole thing. it gives me goosebumps because it is so descriptive of our own times...."and the choice goes by forever."
Once to every man and nation
Comes the moment to decide,
In the strife of truth with falsehood,
For the good or evil side;
Some great cause, God's new Messiah,
Offering each the bloom or blight,
And the choice goes by forever
Twixt that darkness and that light.
“Does your engagement with history frustrate you sometime?” Absolutely! This is a great point.
I liked your caution to avoid the pitfall of doing what is evil under the banner of defeating evil, very thoughtful
Pastor Ortlund, have you ever seen the film Bonhoeffer: Agent of Grace (2000)? How would you compare it to this current film?
Great video; several comments.
Firstly, on the inspiration to join causes and stand for what you believe: "The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of the mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." -J. D. Salinger
Secondly, it is very important we judge men (and literature, and everything) in their context, which is well highlighted in this video.
Thirdly, I suggest to viewers, if they are interested in topics such as this, reading H. Richard Niebuhr’s book "Christ and Culture" (published 1951) wrestles with different views on how involved the church should be in socio-political and cultural matters.
Lastly, as Gavin suggests, rather than only reading or watching content about Bonhoeffer, read his works. "The Cost of Discipleship" is very compelling, as well as his "Ethics". To not do so is like reading only Bible commentaries but not the Bible itself. The Hollywood-ize versions, as much as they can be enjoyed for their thematics, never do full justice to the ideas behind the men and women they depict.
Blessings all!
I agree that Niebuhr's "Christ and Culture" is must-reading for the development of Christian worldview in the context of other Christians with different worldviews. Understanding how we approach society and government in different ways explains why some people charge into politics while others stand back.
@SibleySteve Gavin's recommendation in another video "The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion" by Jonathan Haidt is another good read, though less "christian" than Niebuhr.
I wonder if a lot of these debates and comments, intended or not, are to water-down and secularize the act of true martyrdom, to the point of making martyrdom worthless or even nonexistent. Even Gavin says, really, most martyrdom these days are the "boring chores of life." Interesting that most if not ALL denominations don't think about or talk about martyrdom these days (and I don’t even know if they even talked about martyrdom during the days of the Reformation in any real appreciative, referential way), yet profess to have the same faith of the early Christian martyrs of the catacombs. There may soon be a day, when actual real martyrdom asking us to deny the faith, in order for us to access our money or buy food, be in public, or even practice our faith publicly, etc.. and let's see how modern day Christians will response, when there is so much comfort in our Prosperity Gospel, and that God will rapture us (rescue us) from any real martyrdom. The mentality now is that, the servants should enjoy, and be greater than the master. Jesus is not of the Cross. Believers now only fixate on the glorious resurrection (I guess it is easier to swallow and sell to converts and at Sunday service sermonizing). Despite the fact that all the disciples (including Matthias who took over Judas' position) all martyred. The embrace of the Cross is likely gone from most of the denominations and nondenominations as a true spiritual reality. The servants are not greater than the Master, but many of our words and perceptions seem to point to the "faith" that we servants ARE greater than the Master.
Wonderful, thoughtful review. Perhaps because I knew a little about Bonhoeffer before seeing the movie, I didn’t interpret that his theology on murder and authority had changed. It was said in the movie, something along the lines of “could God forgive us?”-in the assassination attempt, and Bonhoeffer replied, “Will he forgive us if we do nothing?” Though I’ve never experienced anything near what he and his peers experienced, I can appreciate that sometimes we feel that we are faced with circumstances that seem to have no “good” or “godly” choice. In those circumstances we must seek the Lord, through His Word and prayer, and trust our soul to Him. I love that you point out the sin on both sides of the political isle. May we only bow down to King Jesus, and never any man or ideology! ❤
As usual, a very thoughtful and relevant post for us today. I saw the film and also found it inspiring in many ways. My main concern with the film was it seemed to make Bonhoffer's activities in support of the Jews his central aim in resisting the Nazi regime. There is a reason Yad Vashem has not recognized Bonhoeffer as a righteous Gentile among the nations. He was not an integral part of Operation 7, but played a peripheral role. The film presents him as escorting the Jews in a dangerous mission to Switzerland. He wasn't on that journey. Bonhoeffer's views of Jews were complicated, at best, as historians have documented in detail. It seems to me that Bonhoeffer's main concern was the Nazi regime's corruption of the church and Christianity, which entailed the corruption of the entire country. In this way I think the film most directly mischaracterizes Bonhoeffer. What is most remarkable to me about Bonhoeffer is that, despite his, in many ways, traditional (and anti-Judaic) views of the Jews, he recognized the problems of his theology and acted based on his ethic of love to do something to overthrow Hitler and his regime.
Thanks again for the thoughtful video. You're doing great service for Christ and His Church.
At first, I discarded a criticism that came forth regarding the movie, but I had several days to think about it. This is timely, and it helped me to be more careful of discarding gut reactions and hasty conclusions. Thank you for this. It helps with my review of the movie as I talk about it with my peers.
Simply phenomenal Gavin.
The clarity of your language feels like well-codified Biblical wisdom. I was fortunate to study Hebrew Poetry and Wisdom under your brother Eric, and you both have such effective framing and parsing through ideas.
As someone who sees Bonhoeffer as one of the great giants of the faith in the last 5 centuries, I share his family’s and scholarly community’s concern over the co-opting of Dietrich’s life and deeds for political justifications that I believe he would very well oppose. It saddens me that this will be the extent of many believer’s exposure to his extraordinary life and discipleship practice. The very notion of him carrying a gun on the poster speaks to distortion, not of narrative compression (as you so rightly point), but to the spirit of his Gospel ethos. Iconography matters deeply.
My dad’s entire side of the family are Orthodox Jews; he’s the only Christian in his immediate family. We have relatives who died in the Holocaust. I find it ironic that rather than people using the Third Reich’s rise to look inward and see how such power and evil gains foothold in hearts, they desire to be on the “right side” of history by assuming their opponents must be analogues for such a threat. And therefore destroyed at all costs.
I consider myself truly bi-partisan-I don’t think allegiance to Jesus allows me to line up cleanly with either party (in a deeply-flawed 2-party system). If it does, chances are I’ve made something of Christ and the Kingdom in my own image. But I can’t help but feel parallels now, where members of the Church find themselves in socio-economic groups that feel politically disenfranchised, and as a result have venerated a morally reprehensible figure in the name of being “saved” from their predicament. (Or, what they see as greater evil from the other political side). One who has co-opted Christian iconography parasitically.
And yet, I still will not use the term Nazi for that. Let’s reserve that for the literal Nazis who are still alive, well, and self-professing.
I struggle deeply to know how to speak to evils the Church at times lets in, in the name of politics, while not closing the door to conversations with people who think differently than me by doing so. I appreciate your sobriety in speaking as you do, and your courage to continue so in the face of very aggressive, bad-faith opposition I see hurled at you regularly. Thank you for your work.
Very well said, and thank you.
Have you explored Messianic Judaism? It’s possible to be Jewish and still love Yeshua.
One of the very common critiques of Bonhoeffer I see coming from the right is that he didn't believe in the virgin birth or historical resurrection of Christ. I haven't actually seen specific quotes that back up these claims and I suspect this comes from an overly simplistic reading of Bonhoeffer, but I'd love a video that explores the extent to which this critique is either true or false.
He is not a easy reading and should be done in German. So anyone say what they want to say about him.
You're wrong
He straight up disbelieved in thoss things
@@goyonman9655 ok, can you reply with a quote and citation where the quote can be found?
What's "the right"? I consider myself far right nationalist, but I think I never heard such a claim, and fail to see why it would be connected to my liberalistic views and love of nations, or politics in any shape.
@MortenBendiksen I am saying that it is a critique of Bonhoeffer made by some of those on the right, theologically speaking. By "right" in this context I mean theologically conservative, Bible believers. Those who are theologically liberal typically wouldn't be concerned if someone doesn't believe in the miraculous. Thus, this critique of Bonhoeffer is one that predominantly comes from those on the theological "right". Hope that makes sense.
Eric Mataxas wrote a book on Bonhoeffer from his Christian Nationalism perspective.
The Bonhoeffer family have voiced their disagreement .
Ayyyy first comment! I’m an Ethiopian and love ur channel man, keep it up! I love ur video on the Luther and the Ethiopian orthodox convo
Gavin, I’m asking this as I am watching the video so maybe you will address it, but do you have any thoughts on Eric Metaxas’ book on Bonhoeffer?
I am too early for reading the comments. Welcome to the comment section y'all. Hope to read productive discussions here.
Denied Acess.
Sounds like something Hiterally Litler would say...
Thanks!
I don’t follow Metaxas so seeing his Tweet(s) was kind of surprising, but I suppose fits well into this video’s subject of “using Bonhoeffer to one’s own end.” That being said, I did read the Metaxas biography of Bonhoeffer years ago and enjoyed it simply because of it being an extensive recount on his life, but my question is (to someone with more memory of it) if there’s any places or angles where Metaxas does use Bonhoeffer to his own end throughout the book.
A very useful review! I've already seen the movie and i tend to largely agree with Dr O and certainly appreciate his comments on questions of historical accuracy. And i, as was Dr O, very moved by the movie at times. I got a little verklempt at certain points.
Yeah, the movie was very well done, especially coming from a small studio. No huge, flaming Michael Bay moments, but a powerful story of war, courage, and sacrifice that was narritively driven forward in an exciting and moving way with the Christian message always front and center
I'm glad that I saw this thoughtful review and glad that I saw the movie. There's a good and very timely message in it.
Dr. Ortlund, I know you say you're not an expert on Bonhoeffer but maybe you could enlist your more informed colleagues to help address some of the outrageous claims against him. I have heard so many accusations against Bonhoeffer as a heretic lately (not just in this comment section) and all of the sources people give seem to be dubious conjecture at best. At most it appears he just said some unnecessary, self-contradictory things sometimes (turns out he was human) and I would bet that most of his accusers have never even read any work of his in its entirety. It's wild to me how much this idea has blown up in the theological corners of the internet. At any rate, I think it's worth addressing. Thanks for all that you do!
I saw the film recently and found many of the core elements inspiring, but I appreciate this thoughtful critique of it's accuracy.
Hey Gavin, completely unrelated I love the work you're doing for the kingdom and really appreciate your love for others! Who have been most influential on your kind heart and breadth of theological knowledge (apart from Jesus!) 🇦🇺
I would suggest following Bonhoeffer in a Christ-like way, not necessarily a Bonehoeffer-like way. All our heroes, except Jesus are imperfect.
That seems to be the best way to avoid either of the negative historical examples cited--and to so to the greatest degree with the least risk or blowback.
I’m happy you covered this question. I’ve heard that it has material issues, but I never could find anyone saying why it has material issues.
Off topic, but it’s thanksgiving:
Gratilogical argument
When a grateful person conceives that there is gratitude, he has it in his understanding, but does not yet understand it to be, because he has not yet given it.
But after he has made his thanks, he both has it in his understanding, and he understands that it exists, because he has given it to another.
Gratefulness that we understand to exist is greater than gratefulness that only exists in our understanding.
Bonhoeffer intrigues me very much partly because I have had such a hard time finding a denomination that makes sense to me. I tend toward Anglicanism for cultural reasons, but I don't really have a church to attend at the moment. I was not aware that so many people were using Bonhoeffer in modern times, or that there even was a film (looks like I haven't been paying attention...).
But his theology itself is interesting to me. Among others.
Most denominations today fall into the quintessential Protestant denomination/nondenomination quagmire -- the same state that a Cafeteria Catholic is stuck in. Pick-and-choose -- and if you are smart, and articulate, you can convince yourself that it is a good choice, and Holy Spirit-guided. Maybe if you get a PhD like Gavin, or you shout as loud and with hubris like James White, you have more say and more authority. DId Paul have a Ph.D.? A calm man like Leighton Flowers sounds a little more reasonable. WHo has the bigger AUTHORITY (sounds like locker room measure stick). There is in the end no real AUTHORITY, but a lot of human hubris. End result, over time, a secularization or stripping of anything reverential, holy or truly spiritual in faith.
I don't think there's been a pastor that's had this much of an impact on me spiritually, thank you Gavin. I want to lose my life for the Lord's greater design. I desperately want what you've mentioned throughout this video. 🙏🏽 Praise God
I wonder if a lot of these debates and comments, intended or not, are to water-down and secularize the act of true martyrdom, to the point of making martyrdom worthless or even nonexistent. Even Gavin says, really, most martyrdom these days are the "boring chores of life." Interesting that most if not ALL denominations don't think about or talk about martyrdom these days (and I don’t even know if they even talked about martyrdom during the days of the Reformation in any real appreciative, referential way), yet profess to have the same faith of the early Christian martyrs of the catacombs. There may soon be a day, when actual real martyrdom asking us to deny the faith, in order for us to access our money or buy food, be in public, or even practice our faith publicly, etc.. and let's see how modern day Christians will response, when there is so much comfort in our Prosperity Gospel, and that God will rapture us (rescue us) from any real martyrdom. The mentality now is that, the servants should enjoy, and be greater than the master. Jesus is not of the Cross. Believers now only fixate on the glorious resurrection (I guess it is easier to swallow and sell to converts and at Sunday service sermonizing). Despite the fact that all the disciples (including Matthias who took over Judas' position) all martyred. The embrace of the Cross is likely gone from most of the denominations and nondenominations as a true spiritual reality. The servants are not greater than the Master, but many of our words and perceptions seem to point to the "faith" that we servants ARE greater than the Master.
@@ANg-1298
A lot of Christians are of the “beam me up Scottie” mindset. 😨
@@Grammichal that’s why it’s a 2 month old Jesus as GRaCE PACIFIER attitude, never to grow up to Tim 2:12 or parts of Luke and Matthew on DISCIPLESHIP
@@ANg-1298 I am not sure of the meaning of the first part of your sentence. Please advise. ✝️
Tonight at adoration I picked up the book "The Cost of Discipleship" in my church library. After getting only a few pages into it, I decided to look Bonhoeffer up on youtube. I had only heard about the recent movie, and the titles of the reviews were rather unsettling. I got to yours second, which saved me some time searching. The short time I spent in the book was enough to convince me that your review was closest to the mark. God bless you, brother.
Did not enjoy the movie as they tried to set a record for “most flashbacks ever.” I’m pretty familiar with his bio, and still I was flummoxed more than once thinking “where and when are we now?”
I hope the title of this video doesn’t discourage people from seeing this film. This is a fine review but many will not take the time to watch. There has been massive push back on this movie from the progressive German church today and I hope this movie breaks records and keeps it in cinemas for weeks.
Thank you for posting this Gavin. The Cost of Discipleship, read so many years ago was soul crushing to me in its exposure of how shallow a man that I am in comparison. What would you think Bonhoeffer would have spent his remaining life writing - if he had survived the war?
Probably weird communist apologetics.
While tragic, in hindsight his death probably saved him from witnessing everything he preached against worsening all around the world. Dude probably would have fallen into depression upon witnessing everyone across all isles, all religions, and all directional political leanings all over the planet weaponizing churches and religion for violent agendas.
I wonder modern day Christian denonimation/nondenominations' attitude and lack of belief despite mouthing Lord, Lord, and only God, only God has secularized the act of true martyrdom or even stripped it into nonexistence. Even Gavin says, really, most martyrdom these days are the "boring chores of life." Interesting that most if not ALL denominations don't think about or talk about martyrdom these days (and I don’t even know if they even talked about martyrdom during the days of the Reformation in any real appreciative, referential way), yet profess to have the same faith of the early Christians of the catacombs--the martyrs that are there in the hundreds and thousands in the first 4-5 centuries. There may soon be a day, when actual real martyrdom asking us to deny the faith, (just say "rainbow color is great" for example ) in order to access our money or buy food or have work, etc.. and let's see how modern day Christians will response, when there is so much comfort in our Prosperity Gospel, and that God will rapture us (rescue us) from any real martyrdom. The mentality now is that, the servants should enjoy, and be greater than the master. Jesus is not of the Cross. Believers now only fixate on the glorious resurrection. Despite the fact that all the disciples (including Matthias who took over Judas' position) all martyred. The Cross is likely gone from the denominations as a true spiritual reality. Martyrdom is no longer a profession of faith, or an INTENSE SPIRITUAL passionate love for God, but martyrdom is a HUGE inconvenience to our Christian lives.
Thank you for your review on Bonhoeffer, Gavin. In knowing a lot on German Protestant history, which includes Bonhoeffer, Dietrich actually was very conflicted in assassinating Hitler. He definitely knew something needed to be done but pulling a trigger was not a natural inclination for him. That bomb suggestion to England never happened though he did want the allies to win. One other German theologian I probably like more than Bonhoeffer is Franz Delitzch, which directed theology back to a Hebraic continuity. If the theological seminaries in Germany would have followed the direction of Franz, Germany would have never gone in the direction of the Nazi party. Lutherans slipped so far into liberalism and higher criticism in the late 1800s that it really led to the philosophy of Nazi to be more receptive by mainstream Germans.
Thank you for making this video. As I watched the movie, I couldn't help but wonder if it truly portrayed everything Bonhoeffer believed.
Great review
I didn't realize this movie had been made, but thank you for reminding me about Bonhoeffer. This video struck a chord for me, especially regarding the relationship of church and state, because lately I have been learning about the abortion abolitionist movement. This may be something you would be interesting in looking into as well. It is not, as I initially thought, a movement of radical lunatics. In fact it's entirely based on what you might call theological retrieval. These folks went and looked at what the 1800s slavery abolitionist movement was doing and asked what we can learn from them. There are some explanatory talks by a historian/activist T Russell Hunter. A recent one was entitled "William Wilberforce against the 'Gradual Abolitionists'". I'd be interested to know what you think of his methods.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer's little book on Psalms , the Prayer Book of the Bible is a treasure
the man was not a Christian
On Hebrew scriptures.
I am truly grateful that God sees the heart and understands because without His grace , I know I wouldn't have known Him or been able to walk with Him all my life
@21:45 I disagree with you that the Nazis were unique as in some ways Japanese were even worst. They were so bad the Nazis told them to calm down.
Shhhh, only nazis are ontologically evil cuz their white
Great video, friend. I appreciate your measured take on this, and I think you succinctly nailed communicating something that has eluded many people, including myself.
I would like to read a good biography of Bonhoeffer. I have concerns about the Metaxas biography. What others would you recommend?
Good question I also would like to know this
the one his friend Eberhard Bethge wrote.
“The confusion of ontological statements with proclaiming testimony is the essence of all fanaticism. The sentence: Christ is risen and present, is the dissolution of the unity of the scriptures if it is ontologically understood... The sentence: Christ is risen and present, strictly understood only as testimony of scripture, is true only as the word of scripture.”
- Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Seems like he didn’t believe in the historical resurrection. Thoughts?
All of reality for Bonhoeffer must be understood by the resurrection of Christ. Further, his last dispatch of prison is confidence in the resurrection and Christ's atonement.
Gavin, have you read Richard Weikart on the theology of Bonhoeffer
Yes there is so much in there that challenges Gavin's belief of his being a great theologian.
I never understood embellishment with portrayals of historical figures, especially when they are accounts of Christians, accounts many would assume are told by fellow Christians. Part of what should have been my formative years as a young Christian was at a Baptist church that was heavy on altar calls and testimonies. I found out prominent members' testimonies were heavily embellished for dramatic effect, often with the pastors' encouragement. I questioned their integrity after I found out. Truth is important.
I think this is very well said. I watched this movie recently and was a little concerned when Bonhoeffer's friend insists that pastors should not be involved with violence, and Bonhoeffer seems to just brush him off. Glad to learn he was very careful in how he approached this in real life!
Thank you for being sensible.
Really good video, thanks. Another person to look at for a similar Christian witness against Nazism is Franz Jäggerstätter.
Thank you. I was trying to explain my issue with the film to my wife after we watched it on Saturday. This did it better.
I preached this past Sunday (which happened to be my birthday) and used his distinction between Cheap grace & Costly grace. Prepping that sermon was like hugging a cactus but it was necessary.
Kudos to you. These days, there are just so much cheap grace and cheap discipleship; no sense of martyrdom (no cactii these days)--just all about what I can get from God , how I can prosper from God.. It's all about me me me ... just me. No Gospel of Discipleship; No Gospel of Christ Crucified. Only Gospel of Prosperity; only Gospel of Glory. Not what is due to God--yet ALL the shouts claim to be God-centric : God alone, all about God. Nobody likes hugging cacti for God these days. Lord, Lord, keep the cacti away from me--let me live comfortably and with Prosperity.
Whenever someone says the other party is as evil as the nazis I simply say to myself: “Okay, this person has no clue what they’re talking about.”
Unless they mean the communist party,then they are bullseye correct
Right?! Democrats are way more evil than Nazis, with 100 Million+ dead preborn babies under their belts! Nazis were never so evil as to advocate for abortion for any reason up till birth.
This abortion is much worse
One key detail that they left out until the end, was the fact he was Lutheran. They zeroed in on the Baptist influence to where you wouldn’t have known he and the church in Germany was Lutheran until the credits. Another key detail they left out, was in his first sermon that they showed him preach, was what Lutherans celebrate every year, known as Reformation Sunday, which would have made it more obvious they were Lutheran. Instead, it was just the “confessional church.” That’s another example of turning him into our own image.
I have not seen the movie yet. But the trailer was of immediate concern to me because they tried to paint him as more involved with the assassination attempt than he actually was. My concern is that in an atmosphere of hatred in politics, it may give license to certain people to become assassins for glory. That may sound far fetched, but with hatred driving politics in this country, and the unhinged rhetoric, it could happen.
Regarding 14:05 : The seminary was closed officially 1937, but they continued to run it illegally until 1940.
Most important points in this video (for me):
1. The one I disagree with politically isn't Hitler
2. Bonhoeffer is a Neo-Orthodox theologian
The problem is if someone is Hitler then you can always disagree about who that is
This is so helpful and encouraging. Thank you! 🙂
“The one thing that is most important is actually within our control: follow Jesus”
Gavin, at marker 17:38 you have on the corner a photo of the book Bonhoeffer and Resistance: The Word Against the Wheel. On the lower left you misspell the aithor's name with a "Y." It should be DeJonge. (Though it may be pronounced like "Y" if the author is German.)
While you are correct about the spelling of DeJonge’s name, you misspelled “author.” Not trying to troll but just thought it was ironic in your critique of Gavin.
Putting a gun in the hands of Bonhoeffer is no surprise. The pursuit of faith by force entered the Christian domain via St. Augustine. I present the details of this turning point in my new series: ruclips.net/p/PLm7bwglzlZg7Y5n1MEXsJbhQAiP2JpTtp&si=fty5x4boExPBpP0A
an extremely insightful and necessary review. Thank you for these quotes and cautions!!!! Much to think about
And excellent and thoughtful commentary. Bonhoeffer's comments regarding Leadership delivered just two days after Hitler became Chancellor in 1933 might merit our special attention. It is likely that by 1933, Bonhoeffer had read Mein Kampf and understood Hitler and what he stood for. And yet Bonhoeffer's 1933 observations on leadership have a gentle empathetic tone almost as if Hitler could be persuaded and redeemed. In his message, Bonhoeffer portrays the leader and those he leads as being drawn into a personality cult feedback loop, in which the led want an idol and the Leader succumbs to becoming that idol, and thus becomes "the misleader" (der Verfuhrer). If the movie portrays Bonhoeffer as becoming a man of violence, then, I have to see that as either a tragic mistake or as the recounting of a moral and spiritual tragedy, in which Hitler may have claimed another spiritual victim. I will read DeJonge's book. Thank you.
Very helpful comments, yes our resistence to evil can in itself become evil. A very important lesson in current world politics.
19:01 Evil is a ruthless enemy that will stop at nothing. So if we do nothing it will stop.
Very good analysis. I agreed with your analysis of Bonhoeffer, though I have not yet seen the movie.
Time-stamp
11:34 - Bonhoeffer on the gospel of Jesus Christ
12:00, 12:20 - Bonhoeffer’s other views
15:00 - Bonhoeffer’s arrest
I think the point of Bonhoeffer was he learned that a love of church isn't the love of Jesus. After all, the church turned it's back on Bonhoeffer and turned their back on faith in its hour of real testing. Much of the movie is about him and his pursuit of being a theologian. And when he was faced with the fact that he didn't have a conversion story, it challenged him and his faith. His conversion marked a direct change in two things, passiveness and understanding of the Bible. Historical references in the movie refers to his brother being involved in attempts to take out Hitler. The question is, did Bonhoeffer die for the church, or did he die for Jesus? I would say the movie presented it as the latter.
Great analysis. I was hoping you'd comment on Metaxas' biography of Bonhoeffer, and also why both conservatives and liberals tend to "claim" Bonhoeffer. I'm looking forward to seeing the film.
Look up his family’s response. They have distanced themselves from the book and the movie.
Sometimes it is necessary to stand by our principles when confronted with something new. However, sometimes this confrontation makes us realize that our principles were not rooted in the fullness of reality, and they must be changed. The fact that both of these path can be correct depending upon the details is what makes it so hard.
Thank you so much brother for this. I really enjoyed his story and still learning more. I saw the original movie that was made in the early 2000s, with my wife, and it was very inspiring as a believer who is a military veteran, history nerd, and love for discipleship.
Read the early church fathers. They may be inconvenient for you and make you challenge your beliefs.
On another note, thank you for this review! It makes me want to see the movie and pay attention to the lens that it is being portrayed through.
Gavin,
I really appreciate how in your videos your pastoral gift really shines! I feel like a life lesson always comes through your videos. Your channel is one of my husband and I’s favorites!
Thanks for the work you do!!
While I whole heartedly agree that we should not easily use the “Nazi” label, it may not be quite right to say the Nazis were ‘uniquely evil,’ as the evil therein is just an expression of human evil, which is perennial.
Have you seen the film, A Hidden Life?
I’m wondering if Bonhoeffer’s Christianity is more of the WWJD variety? We must do this because it’s what Jesus would have done. WWJD is actually more in line with liberal Christianity, even though it was fashionable among American Evangelicals for a while (like so many fads…”I Found It” and “He Gets Us” being two other examples).
Enjoy your content about relevant modern culture! Havent seen the Bonhoeffer film yet, but hope to watch it soon :) It is inspiring to think about how he made a difference in his time, to be sure.
So far this is the first reflective, rational response to the Bonhoeffer film. I have been reading what i have been experiencing as reactionary reviews from both ends of the political spectrum. Among ng my Christian community , Ive been most concerned about the apparent lack of discernment shown. Which assumptions do I recognize I bring with me to anything I read, watch, hear? What have I understood about Hollywood after decades of movie-going? What do I know about B. after reading his writings or what might I be led to check out by reading for the first time? I thoroughly enjoyed the film, recognizing first that it is NOT a documentary. I love that you drew out the pisitive aspects we Christians can lean into, as well as the literary freedom of the film. I could say more but will stop. Thank you for how you shared as much as what you said.
Here's the issue about the term NAZIs. They didnt begin by committing atrocities. They began as a small group that wanted to Make Germany Great Again. There is a cautionary tale there.....even Lucifer began as an Angel of Light
did you really listen to this whole video and still come to the conclusion that trump supporters are nazis?
Here’s another issue- they lost to the communists. The communists largely crafted the post war narrative. Patton was right.
Very interesting and just the sort of critique I was hoping for with the sort of comment about the most recent Bonhoeffer film that I feared ... and this comes from me, an educator (myself) who became very interested in Bonhoeffer and spent an evening in my dorm room with Eberhard Bethge at Union Seminary where I was a student from 196601970.. Thank you.
1:48 - That’s funny given the fact that Metaxas wrote a best selling biography of Bonhoeffer.
This was helpful, thank you.
A sobering exhortation, brother! Thanks you!
I just saw the movie and I thought it was a beautiful and moving film. From what little I know, I think the film's liberties were meaningful and understandable creative decisions.
I think the backlash is completely unhinged. Apparently, a bunch of Bonhoeffer scholars condemned the film before they even watched it. A prominent German news paper described the ensuing controversy thusly;
"The resistance fighter is now becoming an idol for violent Trump supporters. German and American theologians are protesting against this."
Did they watch the same film that I did? No, because they didn't watch the film....I understand that Bonhoeffer's legacy is complex, but this controversy seems unhinged!
Bonhoeffer was obviously a brave man, but what did he really believe respecting the orthodox faith?
no, he was not a christian in the slightest
@@jalapeno.tabascocitation? Source?
What is ORTHODOX" to you -- ? 20th century evangelical or early CHristian orthodox ? Interesting how our reference point for what is orthodox is so easily movable to agree to our own sensibility. Is the center of truth -- US?! Or is the center of Truth -- the TRUTH . Maybe well-articulated Gavin can spin contemporary 'faith' into orthodoxy too. Would the early CHristians look at your beliefs and say, "hey you are one of us" or would they say, " Hey, are you from URANUS or something.?."
My question is, why did they feel that they had to make another movie about Dietrich Bonhoeffer?
@@Mary-re7gd because the same thing’s happening to the church in America and the nation too. Does that help you connect the dots? And Christians exhibit the same denial now as back then. Look at the comments here. “He’s a heretic!” Same damned thing over again.
If I remember right he was involved in passing messages between contacts involved in a couple of assassin attempts.
Gavin, you spoke of Bonhoeffer's courage. I thank God for your own courage. I know that our situation is not as difficult and dangerous as Bonhoeffer's. Still, it takes courage to publicly teach a view on a secondary issue that is a minority view among your own group. The group I'm referring to is theologically conservative evangelicals. I've seen you do this. Whether or not you're right on any particular secondary issue is not the point I'm making. The point I'm making is that within our own group it does not usually take a lot of courage to teach against something like liberal theology or the LGBTQ agenda. We should teach against those things. They just are not things that take a lot of courage to teach against most of the time. But when we seek to gently and respectfully correct what we see as errors on secondary issues within our own group - well, that is harder. May God continue to give you (and others!) that kind of courage in that kind of situation whenever you need it (and may He help you to be right, even on secondary biblical issues, which are still very important even if not worth dividing over).
Tyvm for the review. My read of church history is that the great theogians of the church bring truth and vitality to the church, but all too often become caricatures in the movement they found. Would Calvin like calvinism, Luther Lutheranism, or Wesley Methodism?
Gavin thank you, very useful. Do you think that Erick Metaxas is making a mistake in dennouncing pastors that are not fighting the political battle as he does?
I think it would be awkward if he did because his own family were big endorses of Harris in TN.
Excellent review/exegesis! 🎞✝
Reach out to Eric Metaxas. While the film isn’t directly based on his biography, it did inspire it. I think you guys having a discussion about this would be fantastic.
The guy he roasted at 1:49? 😅
@ Metaxas knows way more than Gavin about Bonhoeffer. You can disagree with his political beliefs but that doesn’t change his expertise.
@@fishtail1129 I agree, I've read his book on DB
Hello JM could you answer Stabilo vs Sharpie Art pen? Pros and cons?
Loved the movie Bonhoeffer, and I appreciated how balanced this review was.
As I carefully thought through this movie, I was moved in some ways.
What I really listened for was a clearly presented message of Christ, His death for man’s sin and His resurrection and faith in Him for salvation.
We look at Paul’s life in Acts and we see him being persecuted for the Gospel.
I didn’t hear this message in the movie.
I appreciated the movie and I thought it was well done.
It however never presented the Savior clearly.
It may be that Angel productions did not see the gospel clearly since it is not Christian but Mormon.
Their gospel is not Biblical so I’m not surprised it was not clear.
This was great. Thank you!
I'm a 40yr atheist, so probably not your target audience - but I did enjoy the movie and your review of it.
thanks for watching!
Thank you, Pastor Gavin! Your videos never disappoint
I've read Eric Metaxas book Bonhoeffer which was a great read and obviously well researched. In the book you can tell Bonhoeffer is wrestling with the idea of being involved in the assassination attempt on Hitler. Perhaps the movie doesn't send the same signal in the way that idea was portrayed? I haven't seen this film yet but plan to sometime.