Been vegan for almost 6 years now after turning on a video to make fun of vegans, but realized 20 minutes in that I was an absolute hypocrite, so I decided to align my actions with my morals and went vegan on the spot
8 year vegan here. Honestly it is brilliant to hear someone just taking the issue seriously and not giving the predictable defences. I had a good chuckle at some of your off-the-cuff thoughts. It can be so heavy, so it's relieving to laugh at.
I remember meeting some vegans as a teenager when they were protesting in the street. They had this little booth where they were showing them documentaries about animal slaughter. I didn't go in and watch the video. It only took a conversation with one of the vegans about what people do to animals to reduce me to tears. If I was living at home and refusing to eat meat, I would be in a pretty difficult situation. We were not a well off family, so it was really "you get what you're given". But I remember saying to the vegan, and to myself, that I would stop eating meat after I leave home. I started uni a few years later. I didn't immediately go vegan, but eventually I remembered that conversation and stopped eating meat. I kept eating dairy, because I didn't really get what was wrong with it at the time. Plus, I loved milk and cheese. I was vegatarian for nearly 10 years. More recently I learned more about animals being slaughtered for dairy. Like you said, about the guy whose job it is to kill all those male chickens. I didn't immediately stop, but it bothered me. But I still told myself things like "I love milk and cheese, and there's no good cheese alternatives right now. So why change?" But I realised that making the best choices often means sacrificing something that brings you joy. You can't always have the best of everything. That is our burden of responsibility. I'm willing to stop enjoying certain things, even if there's no good substitute, to help reduce the suffering of others. And in the end, I know I would rather be a disatisfied human than a contented monster.
The point you bring up about knobhead vegans is actually not something I'd considered- I just more or less repeated the same thing to myself about "I just wish vegans weren't assholes about it" while at the same time I've never had that kind of interaction with a vegan in my life. Thanks for the video big man.
The thing is that vegans wish non-vegans would stop being assholes to animals. I also imagine that most of your interactions with vegans must have been online; this is true for any discourse - people tend to be more civile when they're not disembodied word sequences.
But you also need to understand vegans are on the front lines of seeing the horrors humans are doing to animals.. you would be a an asshole to frustrated at the world
bit conspiratorial here but i wonder if that sentiment has been pushed a little by animal produce companies, the same way there are climate activist groups doing stunts paid for by the fossil fuel industry
11 year vegan here, clocking in for my comment. I could go on at length so I will sum up with bullet points. You're a badass for thinking about this as clearly as you can with the tools you have, and making your thought open to revision. Kudos to you for this, regardless of the outcome. As a vegan, I have made my choice as consistent as possible by imagining the animal's suffering at the point of purchase or the moment before consumption. Yeah, it could be yummy, but in my mind, the extent to which I'm wishing evil upon the heads of those who cannot fight back is the extent to which I must remain silent and even aid those who wish to cause me suffering because they are stronger and can dominate me arbitrarily. That extent is zero. I'm a hypocrite to the extent that I cannot enact this rubric whenever I have two choices and the one that causes less suffering is obvious, and I choose the one that gives me more pleasure and causes more suffering. These can be found all over the place if we just aim our minds at it for even a brief length of time. If the idea is that you should only do something good if you can apply the idea universally to all things immediately it will result in a non-skillful way to move through the world. A more skillful way to move through the world involves sustained incremental progress. It is not easy, but it is more skillful in that it attends to our nature even as we grow and change. Doing our best means opting for skill if it is in our power to do so. Watch your video back and pause to consider those places where you've not allowed yourself to complete critical thoughts. At 14:07, you start to question "Do we want to live in an industrialized world where... well we already do live in an industrialized world…so I don't know." There was a solid thought there, but you cut yourself off. If we don't want to live in a world that does thing "x" then it stands to reason that we should not contribute to thing "x" if we can help it. I went on longer than I wanted to and still have more to say. Again, I'm not perfect. I make mistakes. There are a great many things I do that I could stand not to, but I haven't been able to stop myself from doing the thing I don't agree with or I haven't been able to sustain my ability to do the thing I do agree with. Just as I recognize my faults, I recognize the faults of others and I wish everyone all the best. We're fighting something that is very tough to fight. You're out there sitting in some area I don't recognize rambling to yourself and trying to work out age old questions. If you're really asking yourself earnestly, I can't ask for anything better. As you mentioned, the consequences for even thinking about tough questions out loud can be dire. It can be much more pleasant to go along with what's happening thoughtlessly. You can gain and maintain friendships with those who choose to move through the world with similar thoughtlessness and the feeling of connection to others can feel pretty good. Depriving yourself of those good feelings can be painful. It's only when we aim at easing the suffering of others or improving the lives of others that I become uncomfortable enough with unskillful choices to end unskillful behaviors.
Reducing universal suffering is very Buddhist in nature. I think the phrase ''we've always done it this way'' sums up meat eaters today, and it will be a long time before there's any real change. In developing countries vegetarians and vegans are growing, and whether its just trendy, its a start in the right direction to reduce suffering. We have the capacity to change nature, because we are nature. Interesting topic. 🙌
Reducing suffering is not only Buddhist, but quite a universal principle among all of humanity, and all religions have pointed in that direction. But religion has often been made to give erroneous recommendations due to the state of survival in the specific era when it took form and the reforms made for convenience. You'll be disappointed to hear that even today, most buddhists will accept meat if it's given as an offering. Here's Chat-GPT about it: "In many Buddhist traditions, monks and nuns are allowed to eat meat if it is offered to them as alms, provided certain conditions are met. This practice aligns with the Vinaya (monastic code) and varies depending on the specific school of Buddhism. Key points include: 1. The "Threefold Purity" Rule: According to the Theravāda tradition, monks and nuns may eat meat if they are confident the animal was not: - Specifically killed for them, - Requested to be killed by them, or - Killed as part of a ritual sacrifice for their consumption. This ensures that they are not directly involved in causing harm. 2. Compassion and Gratitude: In Buddhist ethics, accepting alms reflects gratitude and humility. Monastics rely entirely on donations for sustenance, and refusing an offering could cause distress to the giver. 3. Vegetarianism in Other Traditions: In Mahāyāna Buddhism, especially in East Asia, vegetarianism is strongly encouraged or required in some sects, such as Zen or Pure Land. This is due to the emphasis on compassion (karuṇā) for all sentient beings and the Bodhisattva ideal of avoiding harm to others. 4. Cultural and Regional Practices: The stance on meat consumption often reflects the historical and cultural contexts where Buddhism developed. For example: In Tibet and Mongolia, where vegetation is sparse, meat consumption is more common and accepted. In countries like China or Taiwan, vegetarianism is more strictly practiced among monastics."
@discursion You're right. I guess what I was trying to say was that I've found the philosophy of universal compassion more apparent in buddhism when it comes to animals. Jesus ate fish, bible says eating meat is ok and so does the quran. I guess if your next life depends on it, you're more inclined to be passionate as it would mean your actions have consequences. Which begs the question, are most only nice because they're hoping for a good afterlife? Is that compassion or selfishness? It works the same when you do a good deed for someone, it makes you feel good too. Nothing is altruistic, we all gain something from being nice, regardless of why we choose to do it. Thanks for your reply ✌️
@@DanDevey I understand where you're coming from. I find religion and its promise of a greater afterlife to be a poor argument for morality, but you can see that acting out of pure selflessness for solely for the greater good is not immediately accessible to most people, especially where direct needs aren't met, so it's a fair middle-ground for people to behave more responsibly at scale if only for their own personal sake. But I think it's possible for us to act selflessly as well, even in ways that don't make us feel immediately good or benefit us personally. I don't think that the sense in which we feel good about making action that we deem morally good can be called "selfish". There's needs to be a reason for us acting, and being aligned with what we believe to be right or good doesn't not necessarily entail being selfish, even if we use to word "good" to describe how we might feel about it.
@@discursion In my eyes we are all the same stuff, so helping others is essentially helping ourselves. Maybe there is something deeper resonating beyond being consciously good; that doesn't consider reward. But if so why isn't killing animals viewed the same as killing a human? Or a pet? I think your morality is conditioned to your surroundings - good is defined by us and our societies. Killing something only sucks in a society where no one grows up killing their own food. You can be conditioned to enjoy killing and believe it will do you good in the afterlife. I don't believe Vikings felt bad about killing for example. Good is a human creation that is rooted in circumstance. So I still believe nothing is altruistic, even if you're fully selfless like taking a bullet for someone, in the grand scheme the universe lives on. Interesting conversation 🙌
addressing your two hurdles: 9:53 1)Before I switched, I also thought I only liked regular milk. But once you make the switch to vegan, you'll likely find yourself craving plant-based milk if you use it consistently as a substitute. I’ve noticed that our bodies tend to crave familiarity more than a specific food itself. 2)There is good vegan cheese out there! I used to think otherwise, but food engineering has made incredible strides in recent years. My tip? Go for the most processed, artificial-looking vegan cheese you can find-none of that "healthy" vegan stuff. In my experience, good and "healthy" vegan cheese simply don’t go hand in hand. this isn't to 'debunk' your reasons. there are pleanty of good reasons to not choose veganism, so do what you feel is right for you health-wise and morally. veganism isnt an all or nothing kind of thing. :)
True, and even if there wasn't good vegan cheese out there, who cares? I'd rather go without any cheese (plant based or not) than support the kind of torture involved with dairy production.
Modern ag, at least in the US, is mostly for livestock feed, which is problematic for the soil and for resources. Eating meat today makes less sense over time.
An animal's life should not be forfeit, for the fleeting pleasures of taste. Consider being mindful of what it is you are actually consuming. Try something new!
I can see where you’re coming from, but I would like to invite you to entertain this for a bit: in a Hunter-gatherer settings, he/she does not hunt and eat animals merely bc they ‘seek pleasure and taste’ per se (although those can be secondary); after all there is such a thing when a provider needed to hunt for food in order to sustain his/her own family or group, so organically one’s hunting or process of ‘looking for food’ isn’t always just a self-indulgence matter & often it is grounded in a kind of higher purpose that binds such activities. Now, this is not a philosophical justification for eating meat particularly, im not interested in convincing you to eat meat or otherwise, as much as its about revealing the logic and nature of your argument: you presupposed that eating meat is something that merely services these desires of fleeting pleasures and taste, but ppl in general also self-indulges in food and things other than meat all the time. So while it seems like the right kind of argument for not eating meat, it fell short in its justification.
@@meaningofreason Are you a hunter gatherer? Most vegans understand that survival situations justify certain violent acts, such defending yourself against another person or preditor, or killing an animal because the only other option is starvation. Unless you are in such a situation, your choice to kill an animal is completely based on a taste preference. Most people in the modern world eat animals because they've never questioned it, not because they need to. You can't justify unnecessary violence by pointing out that violence is sometimes necessary in a completely different context.
@@garden.of.thistles most of the modern world eat meat bc they’ve never questioned it, not because they have to? You’re definitely not cooking on this one (no pun intended 😉), so what they’ve never questioned it? Are they obligated to not eat meat like the rest of the others do through out millennia just bc they “live in the modern world,”? Where exactly do you draw the lines on who or which group are allowed to eat meat and whom shouldn’t-and when they DO eat meat in regions where you think they shouldn’t or regions that are more “modern”, does it suddenly makes them bad impulsive people then who just eat food for tastes? Very poor philosophy. It’s okay tho, if you’re a vegan and u think you’re helping & that makes you feel better about yourself then that’s good, I have nothing against that lmao. But don’t think just bc you’re a vegan that makes you so much more pious and have more self control than everybody else bc you’re “not eating food for taste” as a vegan. p.s. I’m done with arguing w randoms online, this is way too dumb
@@garden.of.thistles oh and let me make you a spinach hamburger w/ some sauce, but don’t worry about the taste, in fact let just take the Mayo out too bc mayo is not vegan friendly it’s not about the taste it’s about discipline and moral values baby
@@meaningofreason Some of the meatiest, most mayo covered burgers I've ever eaten in my life have been vegan, meat eaters really dont know anything about how easily replacable their animal products are lmao. There's no reason to be so condescending to one little comment I made. Most people who stop eating meat do so because they do begin to question things like whether it is necessary or not. I'm not vegan to feel better about myself, I'm vegan because I educated myself about the animal ag industry, as well as other forms of animal exploitation, as well as the SERIOUS harm it does to people working in that industry, specifically slaughter house workers (highest rates of mental illness, PTSD, limb loss and bodily injuries compared to any other job), and decided I thought it was unjust to support. You made a lot of very silly assumptions about me and veganism based on a lack of understanding the topic or philosophy.
It's great that you're thinking about the issue of veganism and animal rights. I highly recommend checking out the Gary Yourofsky speech (think it is titled the most important speech you will ever hear". I also recommend the Carnism Debunked website for all the most common arguments. Here's more of the philosophical side: Veganism is an applied ethical position that seeks to grant animals the same negative rights as trait adjusted human beings. If we argue that it is morally acceptable to breed, exploit, enslave, and ultimately kill non-human animals, while asserting that such actions are wrong when applied to humans, we must identify a morally relevant trait that justifies this asymmetrical treatment. What is the symmetry breaker between humans and non-human animals that makes it morally permissible to kill and exploit non-human animals, but not the other way around? To be logically consistent, any trait you cite as a reason for justifying the killing of non-human animals would also imply that if a human lacked that trait, it would be acceptable to kill them as well. The more you think about this question, you will begin to realize essentially any trait difference you put forth will result in absurdities. For example, intelligence is often a trait that is used to justify the exploitation of animals. This leads to a contradiction in most people’s view as most of us would not be in favour of killing mentally handicapped human beings whom possess less intelligence than say a chicken. Propositional logic (source: uproot nutrition) P(x) - (x) has moral worth Q(x) - we should exploit (x) to any greater degree than we would tolerate for trait-adjusted humans R(t,x) - there exists a (t) that is absent in (x) x - a being t - trait a - animal h - human P1) For all things, if a being has moral worth, then we should not exploit it to any greater degree than we would tolerate for trait-adjusted humans. (∀x(Px→¬Qx)) P2) If animals don’t have moral worth, then there exists a trait that is absent in animals such that if it were absent in humans, humans wouldn’t have moral worth. (¬Pa→∃t(Rta→(Rth→¬Ph))) P3) There doesn’t exist a trait that is absent in animals such that if it were absent in humans, humans wouldn’t have moral worth. (¬∃t(Rta→(Rth→¬Ph))) C) Therefore, we should not exploit animals to any greater degree than we would tolerate for trait-adjusted humans. (∴¬Qa)
I could say more words but the one point I want to get across is that the all or nothing approach of either you should be 100% vegan or it doesn't matter is really stupid. It focuses way more on individuals' own moral implication than the actual goal of reducing suffering. I will actually add a second thing: The meat industry does an insane amount of damage to the environment (which we live in, and are affected by), so whether you or I give a shit about animals or not, the meat industry is probably pretty harmful. Also antibiotics...
@@lobstersucker69 because at the moment most people choose "lot of murder" instead of "little bit of murder". For things to improve a lot it doesn't have to be perfect. Don't fall for the black and white, we against them, thinking.
@@lobstersucker69 You're missing the point. I'm saying it doesn't matter how much murdering any individual person does, it matters how many murders are actually happening. Lets say people in an imaginary society on average murder 10 other people a year. Then there's some people who are against murder and some of them only murder 1 person a year and some of them murder 0 people a year, but outside of the small number of anti murder people most people just continue on murdering 10 people a year. The 0 murderers yelling at the 1 murderers that they should be murdering 0 people isn't going to reduce the amount of murders happening in society to 0. "Why would you choose a little bit of murder, when you can have no murder at all?" - My original comment is just saying that a given person doing 0 murder is not the same as 'having no murder happening at all'. Boiling everything down to individuals on their own refusing to buy animal products doesn't actually achieve vegans' ostensible end goal unless literally everyone does it, and right now, almost nobody even tries so I think it's safe to say that isn't going to happen or come anywhere close to happening. It's basically impossible even if you try as hard as you can to avoid indirectly causing any harm to any humans or animals or whatever categorization one thinks has moral value. The focus should be on changing society in a way that less harm happens overall, not just on your own avoiding buying certain things. Also to some extent trying to convince others of certain accounts of base level morality seems futile, since you're reaching such a fundamental level of philosophy the only thing left is being consistent or inconsistent with your beliefs, and most people just don't care about being 100% consistent with all of their beliefs. There's also really no reason to think that just by making your belief structure more consistent you are inherently always making it more 'correct' in some universal sense, as you could be mistaken about something else and simply be reaching towards some local minimum. There aren't really any actual ways of confirming that any given thing is correct or not (it's not like we can run experiments or something on philosophy), and no way of getting everyone to believe in and follow the same moral philosophy.
@@lobstersucker69 I tried to leave a reply but it seems youtube blocked it, maybe because of words like murder I dunno. Anyway you're missing my point, unfortunately I can't give my explanation though apparently :/
Refreshing to hear someone talking about these issues, as a meat eater. I felt as you do and made the change over ten years ago as a result, because it just felt like the easier option compared with having to grapple with the issue in my mind repeatedly. Great videos. Keep up the good work!
The difference between Middle East conflicts and animal suffering… is that you don’t personally contribute to Middle East conflicts. And you do currently personally contribute to animal suffering.
@@johnsullivan873 I don't necessarily agree. You have to vote for someone and that choice had consequences, you have to pay tax and that money has consequences. But I do see what you mean.
@@rubyrogers239 He's saying that your impact is much more direct when it comes to food you're immediately paying for. It's much less obvious how voting might even impact those geopolitics, and it's much less obvious what you can do about it except protesting; when it comes to ending animal exploitation, you just have to not do the actions that induce demand. You're already actively committing a harm, and you just have to stop doing it.
There's no reason to please vegans or meat-eaters. You have to live with your own decisions, knowing what they mean - as long as you're OK with your decisions, that's enough
I always kinda though about the idea of going vegan precisely for moral reasons, I never really liked meat that much, but milk products were like solid 30% of my diet and I could not imagine living without it... until i became not lactose intolerant, but completely intolerant to any kind of milk products (I'm talking having severe stomach pains after eating a slice of lactose-free cheese). So I was forced to transition to plant-based alternatives and, you know, it's not actually that bad (I don't know how it would be if it was not forced by my health condition). And so I thought that it is time to align my morals to my actions, since it really is not hard to give up other animal products, it's just a matter of what you are used to. On the point of humans being omnivores: yeah, ok, but we also are a species capable of compassion. I think the biggest misunderstanding between meat eaters and vegans is that meat eaters engage in a debate about health, while vegans are talking about the morals of animal exploitation. I can sacrifice a bit of my health for my morals if I can sacrifice it for fun by drinking alcohol.
Morally, yeah absolutely vegans have a strong point. In my case, as a person who eats meat, I very much have thought about it from time to time over the years, but I havent truly sat down and considered it/tried going atleast vegetarian. My dad is vegetarian, so it wouldnt be too much of a shock for the family's cooking, but I think the main reason as to why I havent truly considered it and made the switch (because it absolutely is the morally right thing to do through my perspective) is convenience, my frank love for meat, and also this anxiety that if I do try to go cold turkey and make a full switch to vegetarianism, Ill miss out on this whole world of culinary delights that I have yet to really explore despite my love for food. Though I suppose it isnt much of an excuse - I very much could try to go mostly vegetarian, with space given for social events, finding new foods I want to try out etc. Sort of the "Social Drinker" of meat eating. Perhaps thats a model we should be pushing for on a society wide scale for those who are unwilling to become fully vegetarian (which Id imagine currently is the majority of people) - meat as the food of social events etc. rather then the everyday food it is now. Doesnt fully solve the problem or anything like that, but I feel it would be a very strong harm reduction both morally and environmentally.
@@bapabs tbh i became way more explorative with my cooking and with trying dishes after becoming vegetarian because i kinda had to. Believe me there is a whole world of food out there that is just as interesting as any meat dish and fake meat fills the void enough id never even think of going back
Great conversation, I think most vegans relate with you and have been where you are. I definitely recommend checking out Earthling Ed, literally just click the first video you see that interests you. Thanks for the video!
Earthling Ed definitely put me onto veganism. His arguments are so powerful and he does and excellent job of having discussions on veganism without being condescending.
“In my view, the animal rights movement is, at its core, a movement about ending violence to all sentient beings. It is a movement that seeks fundamental justice for all. It is an emerging peace movement that does not stop at the arbitrary line that separates humans from nonhumans.” - Gary L. Francione
I don't feel like eating chicken anymoe. I try not to worry too much about what other people think. No pun intended but I don't think we should be walking on eggshells about topics that should probably be talked about.
I don't take issue with consuming animals, it's a perfectly natural process and living organisms do it, but I do take issue with the ethic of *how* we do it and the industrial process. I personally don't eat chicken or chicken byproducts because they're statistically the most abused animal (which does suck because they're also the most ecofriendly animal to farm) I think society needs to move away from the idea that meat is a part of our regular diet and instead view it as something more for a treat, or occasions.
Do you think that because something is natural is means its ethical? This is known as an appeal to nature fallacy. If we argue that it is morally acceptable to breed, exploit, enslave, and ultimately kill non-human animals, while asserting that such actions are wrong when applied to humans, we must identify a morally relevant trait that justifies this asymmetrical treatment. What is the symmetry breaker between humans and non-human animals that makes it morally permissible to kill and exploit non-human animals, but not the other way around? To be logically consistent, any trait you cite as a reason for justifying the killing of non-human animals would also imply that if a human lacked that trait, it would be acceptable to kill them as well. The more you think about this question, you will begin to realize essentially any trait difference you put forth will result in absurdities. For example, intelligence is often a trait that is used to justify the exploitation of animals. This leads to a contradiction in most people’s view as most of us would not be in favour of killing mentally handicapped human beings whom possess less intelligence than say a chicken. Propositional logic (source: uproot nutrition) P(x) - (x) has moral worth Q(x) - we should exploit (x) to any greater degree than we would tolerate for trait-adjusted humans R(t,x) - there exists a (t) that is absent in (x) x - a being t - trait a - animal h - human P1) For all things, if a being has moral worth, then we should not exploit it to any greater degree than we would tolerate for trait-adjusted humans. (∀x(Px→¬Qx)) P2) If animals don’t have moral worth, then there exists a trait that is absent in animals such that if it were absent in humans, humans wouldn’t have moral worth. (¬Pa→∃t(Rta→(Rth→¬Ph))) P3) There doesn’t exist a trait that is absent in animals such that if it were absent in humans, humans wouldn’t have moral worth. (¬∃t(Rta→(Rth→¬Ph))) C) Therefore, we should not exploit animals to any greater degree than we would tolerate for trait-adjusted humans. (∴¬Qa)
@@namethetrait ”we should not exploit animals to any greater degree than we would tolerate for trait-adjusted humans,” The justification presupposed that a human life is of equal worth & values in toto to, say, a chicken. Now, I love KFC right, so put me on the spot: am I a terrible person now and should be in horror realizing I just did a heinous crime equals to eating a human being? I would hate to be that dude who have to do years in prison after trying to enjoyed some fried crispy chicken wings rofl
@@namethetraitoh and I would hate to have a vegan Judge, omg can you imagine? And by the way, do you copy and paste all that? Bc there’s no way you think and talk to ppl in this way in real life
@ I guess you either misread what I said, or don't have the capacity to understand the proposition: ”we should not exploit animals to any greater degree than we would tolerate for trait-adjusted humans,” Did you miss the part about "trait-adjusted"? For example, what is the moral difference between a pig with the intellect of a 3 year old child, and a 3 year old human child? I would like to point out that you still have not addressed the question: If we argue that it is morally acceptable to breed, exploit, enslave, and ultimately kill non-human animals, while asserting that such actions are wrong when applied to humans, we must identify a morally relevant trait that justifies this asymmetrical treatment. What is the symmetry breaker between humans and non-human animals that makes it morally permissible to kill and exploit non-human animals, but not the other way around?
I think society needs to stop looking at animal as statistics, and rather see them as sentient individuals, which they are. Killing once in a while should not be seen as a treat. The only reasonable motivation for doing that is sheer necessity, not a luxury. This is precisely what led us to the current horrific situation with factory farms: colonialism and capitalism have turned meat into a luxury item that everyone wants to have in order to embody or signal a specific social status. That's an issue.
Always great to see someone consider veganism. Especially when it's so urgent for animals that we change our ways. Few things: - Plants do not have a central nervous system connected to a brain, so they do not feel pain as they lack the sentience to do so. - Hunting is still unethical when it's not done for survival, as you can choose not to kill and eat plants instead. - Even if you can't find alternatives that you like the taste of, does taste pleasure ever justify what animals go through? - Reducing is better than not changing at all, but no one would accept reducing an action that's clearly immoral when it comes to other injustices like sexism or racism. - Vegetarians still fund industries that are just as bad if not worse than the meat industry. - The reason you don't stop is simply because you are socially conditioned to exploit animals. - Watch the documentary "Dominion" - Besides the obvious cruelty, breeding animals with the sole intent of eating either their body parts or what comes out of them is never a good idea. - Animals are not resources here for us to use, they're individuals that live for themselves. I hope you find the motivation to go vegan. It means everything to the animals.
I'm vegan. I agree with most of what you said in this video, and in the months before I went vegan my views were very similar to yours here. For example, when I went vegan, I didn't think there was anything inherently wrong with us killing animals for food (although I would disagree now). It was enough for me to see that even the most "ethical" meat and dairy farming involved treating animals awfully, and most animals spend their lives in factory farms anyway. Personally, I believe that if you are aware of the horrors that happen in animal farming, there is no justification to financially support the industry when you can survive as a vegan.
I agree with everything you said from the moral standpoint and feel pretty much the same, so i have nothing to say to that. I find it's kinda hard and tedious to properly replace beneficial nutritious properties of animal based products through a purely vegan diet. I wanted to like tofu but it's pretty much like rubber. I don't eat a lot of meat because I'm terrible picky about food, which makes me feel like an ungrateful asshole and makes coming over for a meal somebody prepared for me a generally anxious experience because it's hard to explain to people that it's not their cooking, and in the Balkans, everything is about meat, and especially pork which I generally really don't like. I'm already having trouble maintaining proper weight and I look at all the people around me weighing 25kg more than me on average, and think to myself "I'm not the one who is supposed to be the one eating less of anything". Like, people here eat the shit out of pork. It's fucking pork everything. Christmas - pork. Secular holidays - pork. I understand it's how our people have survived for a very long time, but there's no reason to eat that much. To get back from the tangent to the point I was trying to make - I really like vegetables and most fruit, but I can't really a large amount of food without getting nauseous. If I eat a serving of meat, or eggs, or cheese, I can feel relatively full. I can't imagine eating enough kale or something like that and becoming full. You could say "just eat more bread" or something, but that's a generally nutritiously trash food we eat too much of already, health wise.
ex vegan and ex vegetarian here (yes i hate myself for it lol) - i think one underrated part of the argument for cutting down on animal products is the impact the industry has on humans. you kind of touched on it with the chicken sexer, but these jobs have horrible mental and physical impacts on us just from the industry. my hometown is a meat packer factory town, and the stories ive heard from the plant are horrifying. physically, its grueling and ruins your quality of life. some workers even got a rare autoimmune disease where they got serious nerve damage- some were even paralyzed. and mentally, it’s horrible too. it isnt good for you to make your entire life focused around killing. workers are abusive, emotionally damaged. i recommend reading slaughterhouse by gail eisinitz, where she goes into the lives of many meatpacker workers around the US. phenominal book. but yeah. that’s all i have.
i lied, i thought of more. one thing about the alternatives- if there is a better demand for better things, then they will be made. you cant really just wait around for things to get better, because millions are dying because of it. i say this as a current meat eater, too.
@@emocarnie "one thing about the alternatives- if there is a better demand for better things, then they will be made" - only problem is the demand will not be there. Look at Beyond and Impossible, those are "so close" say within 10% of real meat, and yet people will rather continue to kill for that 10%. Do you think it will be any different for 99%? It won't. They are already banning lab meat before it gets started.
Have you tried Vitasoy Soy Drink? We have this in New Zealand and I much prefer it to milk. I think you can get it at Costco in England. If you get it, try and get the low sugar one.
Never been so alligned with someone’s thinking on this before. I do think though that there is a value and honor in the intention. The worst part about meat eating is doing it just because it’s the default, without considering what you believe about it.
have you tried the "barista" version of oat milk? theyre actually pretty decent with tea i think. theyre a bit creamier than the regular oat milk. i had a cup of tea with cows milk recently for the first time in maybe 4 years and it tasted pure manky, like it was sour or something but it wasnt out of date or anything
I think it's a good video from an interesting perspective. That of the inner conflict phase. It could be more compelling than coming from someone who's made the choice and went vegan. There’s nothing natural about hunting. Going out with a riffle and all sorts of equipment is not natural. Natural would mean going out there with your teeth and nails and having to strangle a deer or stone to death some smaller animal. The thing about vegetarians is that it doesn’t really reduce any suffering. If they just eat more cheese and eggs instead of meat it doesn’t serve any cause. And some argue that dairy and eggs cause more suffering than the meat industry, because the animals get exploited for longer periods of time before being eventually slaughtered anyway. I guess being a vegetarian or a flexitarian that only occasionally eats animal products does help. But let’s face it, few people have that discipline and it wouldn't matter anyway to the animals who die needlessly. Also, dairy was the hardest to give up for me too, it’s an addiction to casein.
I would argue that vegetarianism does indeed reduce suffering, at least in comparison to meat eating outright. I feel that you can still give, say, a cow or chicken a good life while periodically taking their produce with little (if any) bad effects, but you cant really kill an animal for its meat in any way that could be considered moral, you know?
@@bapabs Dairy and eggs involve killing too. The male chicks usually get thrown alive in a grinder as soon as they hatch. In the dairy industry the male calves are sent to slaughter and become “veal”. There is no way around it that would make economical sense. Let’s have a look at the “happy lives” of the female animals that get exploited. The chickens are debeaked without any anesthetic, they live in cages or overcrowded sheds and never see the outdoors in their entire lives. The egg laying chickens have been bread selectively to produce a breed that makes an unnaturally high numbers of eggs, leading to health issues like brittle bones, uterine prolapse, and exhaustion. It’s the equivalent of a woman having a period every day of her adult life. Once their egg production declines (usually after 1-2 years), they are considered "spent" and are slaughtered. The natural life span of a chicken is 5 to 10 years, depending on the breed and living conditions. So they don’t get even close to living half their lives. Let’s have a look at the “happy lives” of dairy cows too. So, just like any mammal, they make milk only after they give birth and only enough to feed that baby. That means that in order to exploit that mink, they get forcibly impregnated. This is often done through artificial insemination, which is stressful and invasive. Then the mother and baby get separated shortly after birth. The cows grieve this loss and they bellow for weeks. The process is repeated over and over again, until they break down and they don’t make enough milk to be economically viable. And what happens then, do they get to retire on green pastures? Of course not, they go to the slaughter house. Again, they are killed way before they reach the equivalent of middle age.
@@bapabs Dairy and eggs involve killing too. The male chicks usually get thrown alive in a grinder as soon as they hatch. In the dairy industry the male calves are sent to slaughter and become “veal”. There is no way around it that would make economical sense. Let’s have a look at the “happy lives” of the female animals that get exploited. The chickens are debeaked without any anesthetic, they live in cages or overcrowded sheds and never see the outdoors in their entire lives. The egg laying chickens have been bread selectively to produce a breed that makes an unnaturally high numbers of eggs, leading to health issues like brittle bones, uterine prolapse, and exhaustion. It’s the equivalent of a woman having a period every day of her adult life. Once their egg production declines (usually after 1-2 years), they are considered "spent" and are slaughtered. The natural life span of a chicken is 5 to 10 years, depending on the breed and living conditions. So they don’t get even close to living half their lives. Let’s have a look at the “happy lives” of dairy cows too. So, just like any mammal, they make milk only after they give birth and only enough to feed that baby. That means that in order to exploit that milk, they get impregnated, often through artificial insemination, which is stressful and invasive. Then the mother and baby get separated shortly after birth. The cows grieve this loss and they bellow for weeks. The process is repeated over and over again, until they break down and they don’t make enough milk to be economically viable. And what happens then, do they get to retire on green pastures? Of course not, they go to the slaughter house. Again, they are killed way before they reach the equivalent of middle age.
@@bapabs Dairy and eggs involve killing too. The male chicks usually get thrown alive in a grinder as soon as they hatch. In the dairy industry the male calves are sent to slaughter and become “veal”. There is no way around it that would make economical sense. Let’s have a look at the “happy lives” of the female animals that get exploited. The chickens are debeaked without any anesthetic, they live in cages or overcrowded sheds and never see the outdoors in their entire lives. The egg laying chickens have been bread selectively to produce a breed that makes an unnaturally high numbers of eggs, leading to health issues like brittle bones, uterine prolapse, and exhaustion. It’s the equivalent of a woman having a period every day of her adult life. Once their egg production declines (usually after 1-2 years), they are considered "spent" and are slaughtered. The natural life span of a chicken is 5 to 10 years, depending on the breed and living conditions. So they don’t get even close to living half their lives. Let’s have a look at the “happy lives” of dairy cows too. So, just like any mammal, they make milk only after they give birth and only enough to feed that baby. That means that in order to exploit that mink, they get artificial insemination, which is stressful and invasive. Then the mother and baby get separated shortly after birth. The cows grieve this loss and they bellow for weeks. The process is repeated over and over again, until they break down and they don’t make enough milk to be economically viable. And what happens then, do they get to retire on green pastures? Of course not, they go to the slaughter house. Again, they are killed way before they reach the equivalent of middle age.
@@bapabs My reply keeps getting deleted automatically. What I was trying to say is dairy and eggs involve killing too. The male chicks usually get thrown alive in a grinder as soon as they hatch. In the dairy industry the male calves are sent to slaughter and become “veal”. There is no way around it that would make economical sense. If you want to know about the "happy lives" of the females that get exploited, you can ask chatgpt "what happens to egg laying chickens and dairy cows in the animal agriculture industry?" If I write it here it just gets censored.
This was another interesting, thoughtful ramble i enjoyed! Ive already forgotten all but the bare basic messages of your video straight after watching (my memory sucks ass 💀😭) but here's my bit of ramble! I think i kinda agree with the vegans on a moral pov, I care about the animals and environment. That job you described seeing about the chicken sexer sounded GRIM AS HECK- like wtf?? I didn't know that was a job but thats another disgusting part of the animal food product industry. It made me laugh but like a bittersweet one, because thats a real job. Animal exploitation and the way they tend to be treated- in places nothing short of absolute crap, should not exist for our pleasure. I used to think "Well if people change the way we get our animal products (specifically meat) by making them more ethical, then animal cruelty in the industry would be stopped and we/I wouldn't need to theoretically go vegan for moral reasons". And i still understand that n' go 'mm yeah that makes sense' in a way, but that change in animal treatment doesn't seem to be happening on a mass scale anytime soon. It should. I don't like people who think its ok to mistreat animals for not being human/having human like qualities- the things that make us different from any other animal. That's a heartless way of thinking. Back to point, it sucks to admit but not enough people who directly have the ability to induct these industrial changes care. So i think as someone who's been raised with meat as a normal part of diet, i am interested in veganism and would like to do it when I'm independent. I say that cause im not living on my own and therefore with my kinda parent, can't switch to veganism as soon as I would like. I suppose it would be interesting to explore meat/dairy alternatives. I enjoy animal product foods but am theoretically willing to give them up, though i know it may not be easy cause im so used to eating them. But i love food in general, so im probably gonna find foods that taste just as great that are vegan. Just thought of cake while writing this- i love cake. I clearly need to do more research on vegan food alternatives cause id miss cake and i don't actively know about any vegan cake. Hoping there is XDD Yeah so thats essentially my thoughts on veganism! I would like to try it when I'm more independent, for moral reasons. Not enough people have genuine sympathy and care about the bad sides of the animal product industry which is an issue. How we we solve that and make people genuinely care? I don't know, as plain as it feels to say. Hope anybody who took the time to read this (and anybody who didn't) has a great day and sleep. (人*´∀｀)｡*ﾟ+
As a Vegan, let me just say that a world with more concious omnivores like yourself would be a much better world than the world we're in now. I commend you
Honestly you don't need to have your dietary restrictions be so binary. Your descriptions of being kind of in the middle (meat sometimes, dairy more often) can be good enough if that's what you want. Participating less, if that's your goal, is still worthwhile even if you don't eliminate it entirely. A better choice is a better choice, even if it does not fit in a nice little descriptive box. Also there tend to be 3 reasons for veganism: animal cruelty, health reasons, and climate reasons. Most of them are kind, never met a dikhead vegan. I'm actually married to one. In the spirit of this video, this comment is a little rambley without much of a point. Sending you good vibes and thanks for the video!
I'm not vegan or vegetarian, but I generally avoid meat. Anytime I cook something for myself it very rarely involves meat. I live in the USA's Midwest region and it is incredibly difficult for me to go get food with family or friends and there be vegan options. Generally I think you should just try and reduce your consumption from unethical sources. idk if the logic really works, but the eggs I get from my neighbor's chicken feel a lot more ethical than the one's from the store.
Those eggs are still pretty bad - for every hen there, a male chick was killed, statistically speaking. Also, when the hen is "spent" it's likely killed as evidence of the flock not continuing to grow unchecked.
I also live in the Midwest and the number of places without a vegan option is surprisingly small, especially outside of fast food. By suggesting restaurants with vegan options and ordering the vegan options it also helps make vegan options more widely available.
For somebody like you or I, it's honestly not hard to avoid eating meat. We don't have control of participation in most of the horrors of modern society, but doesn't it make sense to make the good choices we know we can?
i have been vegan for 6 months and was vegetarian for 3 years before that. 7 months ago I said I could never go vegan because of yogurt because there is no good alternative but after watching a video about dairy and learning that cows get raped their whole life in order for me to have it, that felt like such a stupid reason and I went vegan instantly. I imagined if I were one of those cows, getting taken away from my mother so that she had to be forcibly impregnated and attached to a machine so that some randos could bottle up her milk and sell it for money, and then kill her when she wasn't profitable anymore, and then when I grow up I would be sentenced to the same life. Whether you are an animal or a person, nobody deserves that. I realized that by buying and consuming animal products, I am reinforcing the belief that this kind of treatment of someone is justified if it means I get to eat something that tastes good, and that I don't have to put in effort to change. I realized how selfish that was, and it is such a simple act to find something else to eat, and it would be a little difficult, but something being "too hard" is not a good enough reason for me to not do the right thing. I encourage you to do some research about the foods you don't want to give up such as cheese and milk. See how they are made, and ask yourself if you believe this process is justified if it means you get to eat/drink something that tastes good. Take time to think about it. Whatever you decide, you have the power to start aligning your actions with your values whenever you want. I also disagree that someone should avoid videos of meat production while eating meat. We should know what we are eating. If seeing how meat is made makes you lose your appetite then that is good information - maybe we should not be eating it. I do get annoyed by people that eat meat because most of them could easily stop if they put a little effort in. I get annoyed at my past self for doing the same thing too. Mostly sad because it feels so grim seeing body parts everywhere, and people don't even think about the fact that someone died. It hurts a lot seeing people mindlessly eating someone I care about, and that I used to partake in this too. But I remind myself that it's not about me, it's about the animals, and it doesn't matter whether I'm annoyed or not because they are still dying at a rapid rate, and I only have control over my own actions. I hope I don't sound too critical, I just wanted to offer my thoughts as you so kindly offered yours. I really enjoyed watching this, it's good to hear perspectives outside of my own, and I hope to hear an update in the future
I've been vegeterian my whole life but am currently looking to try eating meat because of low energy levels and all that, would be open to suggestions for what to try first.
Sounds like you've got it pretty well figured out, just stand up for your ethics. The #1 regret of all vegans is not going vegan sooner. Going vegan is like planting trees - the best time to do it is 20 years ago, the second best time is today!
me and my partner are trying to go vegetarian atm but its so hard we have like 3 good meals we know of like pasta w/ spinach and sauce, califlower cheese and pitta bread with tomato puree and mozzarella
i started not eating meat and drinking milk like 8 years ago and my family never paid any attention apart from the feeling i was being mocked behind closed doors and in the last few years they've all actively tried and failed... its a night mare and i think its because it would take a good 20-25 easy to make cheap meals would help anyone start off initially and then come to terms with what like 10-15 they like to stick with or something like that
i stopped drinking milk because i heard it was bad for your bones, i stopped drinking tea and coffee because i learnt about fluoride, i stopped using sugar because i heard it was 8 times more addictive than cocaine, i started drinking bottled water because of the fluoride calcifying the pineal gland. i ate more raw fruit and veg but only lasted for so long.
Eat all the same stuff you did before just sub in the vegan option. Pizza, tacos, burgers, sausages, etc. Name it, we'll help. Also, there are sites that give you free meal plans and nutritional advice.
woah we're the same age I'm vegan and it feels good to know I'm not contributing to the murdering of animals in factory farms. The dairy industry also contributes to this. I'd really recommend going vegan if you believe it's right. Don't continue doing something you know isn't right. This goes for anyone and everything. I think vegetarians are hypocrites because they don't like animal suffering but still contribute to it, but I also think that being vegetarian is better than not being vegetarian or vegan. A reduction is still good but shouldn't be the end goal.
This video pleases me. I am someone who eats very little meat and will likely one day go vegetarian however I am allergic to nuts which sucks because it’s harder to get that protein in
Mate I agree with a lot but imo you misrepresented the "natural" argument. From my point of view this argument is meant to explain the fact that our gastrointestinal system is biologically meant to consume a mixture of food which also includes protein rich foods like meat. Of course not in the amounts that most people in the "west" consume meat like a 100kg/year per person or something but our bodys EVOLVED (not made, (a non believer aswell)) to metabolise meat.
i've been pondering an interesting thing lately, which is the parallels between 'evolution' and 'habit'. it's sort of affected how i use evolution/'nature'/'human nature' as a justification for necessity, as thinking of the things we/anything evolved to tend toward as simply manifestations of habit on a massive scale has helped with thinking "aw that's just how it is, i can't change it so it's a waste of energy to try", and starts me asking "why do i consider this unchangeable and how is it already changing on its own". so, like, since americans eat HELLA meat, they'll likely evolve more carnivorous physical traits, but evolution only really becomes physically apparent when we have enough space from it temporally to compare the differences. i think the emotional habit comes first, but we write that off because we make such a distinction between body and mind. i am gonna make a huge assumption here, HUGE, but i think it's interesting how prone to unneccesary violence americans seem to be on large scales, what with chiming in with war whenever an opportunity presents itself. i'm drawing an interesting parallel here between eating wayyyy too much meat(and being separated from the killing of the meat before the meal) and being wayyy too comfortable operating in the predator/prey framework/being openly abusive or violent, which i worry then bleeds over into how people interact socially and intrapersonally. not preaching a vegan "kumbaya" world, but if we're already at the top of the food chain, arguments like "we've always done it this way" or "we evolved to, so it must be necessary" seem more like manifestations of the predator/prey framework trying to reassert itself for fear of losing its 'predator' status (becoming prey and therefore dying, the brain panics so doesn't wanna change), even though there's no longer a bigger, badder predator to topple, so we just project the bigger bad onto someone else who didn't deserve it. same concept as putting someone on a pedestal, just with fear. which i think also shows itself in the manifestation of 'putting yourself in the place of the animal' as being one of the very first steps toward holding more vegan morals, a sort of rejection of the power of being the predator even though you're still at the top of the food chain, and hopefully showing predators that empathizing with one's prey isn't necessarily weakness. i might argue that humans ended up evolving to identify more with either predators or prey and then work to preserve that dynamic no matter what, and now that shapes their moral compasses and opinions, rather than in the past where it shaped whether they lived or died so changing it wasn't an option, whereas now it's imperative. i think that's also the crucial distinction that puts so much distance between us and the physical, gritty reality of watching/causing it to happen. the morals of meat get fucky when you've both been the wolf savoring its meal and the rabbit caught in the brambles being eaten alive lol. i think its addicting for either party... enjoying the meat can be just as addictive as feeling sad about being the meat, but i think considering both perspectives is an important part of separating animal instinct from why we hold our morals or make choices and then moving away from holding morals or making choices that stem solely from instinct i've also liked the concept that every time you put something into your body, you are evolving, because you are not the same person you were before lunch - you've evolved 3 more deviled egg tendencies and 7 more meat tendencies because you ate more meat at lunch. i also think this is why with substances, the more you take over time, the easier it is to get addicted, and also why the 'gateway drug' argument occured, as the first use of a cigarette 'primes' the habit to occur again. just some thoughts, sorry for the rant haha! hope you have a nice day :)
@@sunblooom The parralell you drew between eating too much meat and being too comfortable operating in a predator/prey framework is an excellent point and one that rings true in my experience. Very insightful!
@ aww ty!! 'rings true in my experience' that is a very high compliment actually, thank you. reflecting/sharing the truth of our experiences is like a huge goal for me so it's rlly cool to know that that's lowkey even possible for me to do xD this shits fascinating to me lol, another thing about that i thought was interesting on the other side as just a fun thought - does eating more plants n stuff make us more submissive/prone to noticing the food affecting our tendencies? and, if genetic modification is a core tenet of the industrialization of all foods, the difference between how we took control of the genetic strains to better sell them - chickens who are bred to be eaten and apples that are spliced to be sweeter/bigger/preserved longer are both different means of fucking with evolution, but thinking about how they affect us after consuming them consistently is really interesting given that there aren't really non-genetically modified apples readily available anymore, nor ethically sourced meat, and now we don't really have the option to consume fully "non industrialized" food. so, on some level, we literally have no choice but to consume industrialization. it's much harder to break a habit when you have nothing to replace it with. that's like the whole thing of addiction too lol, you can't just cold turkey you need to want to draw more than drink also that we bred fruits and stuff to live/preserve longer, but we bred animals to live shorter, and how that likely can also reflect itself in OUR lifespans, and even attention spans, oooooh fuck, i just realized the meat/iphone combo is just the final punch in the gut for the whole "mass manipulation" concept. give nutrients that shorten attention span and are delicious to eat while watching short form shit, and give means to consume short form content to sate the food-induced craving to shorten the attention span. i don't even think it's an intentional conspiracy lol i think it's just a really, really, really bad habit i've found this true in my own eating habits; i'm always much more sparse with my screentime when i'm in a plants/fruits-only-binge, cuz they're just so yummy - that's when i read and water my plants and brew coffee, but when i eat meat i find myself drawn to watch something while i eat, whereas when i'm eating an apple i'm like FUCK MY TEETH ARE COLD I DON'T BITE INTO SHIT EVER ohhhh that's yummy, very crispy a little bruised... and i don't have time to want to be distracted because i'm so distracted with the visceral firsthand experience. but with meat it's like walking up to the trough "time for my daily feeding!" aww. that's sad.. i also think a reason vegans might come off preachy is that they HAVE found that sort of joy of immediate experience by changing their eating habits, and it's SO fuckin nice and really healthy actually, but trying to share how much better it makes them feel only comes off as how much better they feel by being morally superior or whatever lol i'm sorry for the second wall of text ;-; i got attention and needed more apparently lmao. you gave me a reason to theorize-rant and i let it run way too far down the rabbit hole haha. thanks for the excuse to think tho!! i need to get a fuckin journal. fuck haha (i'm interested on ur thoughts on this)
@ hahhaahahaaa wonderful quote i love that!! thank you for sharing was just talking with my brother about how using forks feels very brutalist; we don't hold it as we would hold a pen, loosely and articulately; we hold it like a scalpel or spear, impale our food, and eat it off the knife. stab, bite, stab, bite. chopsticks are a cool alternative for me at least; a learning curve, very articulated, and requires balance (especially for things like rice). grab, carefully lift, place in mouth, grab, carefully lift, place in mouth. somehow it feels more respectful to the food. i don't know why, but showing respect and gratefulness for my meals is very important to be. if i have to eat meat, i'm going to give it as much respect as i can as i eat. i also like that it forces you to eat slower, and actually engage with the process of eating as an activity/skill to be enjoyed and improved upon rather than a necessity for energy ghandi always spat fire bars. we spent ages thinking it was metaphorical when often metaphors are the most literal description possible xD
I studied biology in university and a lot of biologists are vegan. I was aware of all the reasons why someone would be vegan and I agreed with the reasons, had a bit of peer pressure to become one too, yet I was not. Once I graduated and got to a more peaceful and calm period of my life, I went vegan without really even planning it or trying, it just happened. Turns out I just lacked energy and mental space to make a such change, but really it has only made my life easier if anything.
Agreed, one of the biggest blockers is that people can't even imagine going vegan. (Or allow themselves to imagine it.) It was the case for me. Actually going vegan is pretty easy and fun too.
Hunting and fishing for our own food is a alot better straight from nature when you think about it because the animals live there most natural life from life to death, factory farming isnt the way
I personally think that a lot of some of the backlash is that people (omnivores, the majority of us), are generally faced with principles we agree with in veganism - reducing suffering, making less greenhouse waste, etc., but are then faced with some losses because of it - one, the choice of their enjoyment of the diet, which is to say enjoying things like steak, bacon, pepperoni, etc., and two, the scarcity sacrifice of their resources. This is I think much less true today, but a healthy vegan diet has traditionally been presented as expensive - lots of organic things, specialty products, etc., and so in ways, omnivores are asked to make either moral sacrifices, in going against their overall moral hierarchy by confronting the issue and taking a stance on it, and if they still choose to eat meat, know that they are going against that moral, or do the opposite, which is to keep their morals but sacrifice a good measure of convenience, perhaps more money, and a good bit of time to do due diligence on fulfilling the diet requirements and if necessary, paying more for the resulting products than they would otherwise need to with a traditionally omnivorous diet. I'd be curious to see any kind of study or reporting on whether or not this perceived price difference as part of the scarcity sacrifice is mostly true, mostly false, and perhaps in some way backed by large industrial meat companies, or somewhere in the middle. For reference, Tyson Foods has a market cap of $20 billion USD. I'm sure preventing swaps away from consuming meat is on their radar, even if they aren't doing anything about it, and they're just one of the players - there's got to be an interest in keeping it as a 'fad,' and not letting it become a large 'trend,' etc.
oh wow that's definitely a huge part of it, letting go of the taste of graziano sausage and omelettes is a huge reason why committing to veganism is likely not going to be what i choose for a while and it sucks sometimes haha. i think the love of immediate experience is true of both meat eaters and fruit nerds regardless of morals, where meat eaters love a damn good steak for dinner and fruit nerds love a damn good apple in the morning. we all just wanna love living a little hehe there's also a huge accessibility part of it too i think; you can't really drive through somewhere to grab a salad necessarily. subway/jjhs exists yes and i love them but damn, you can grab mcdonalds on your work break and it's cheap as fuck (or just work there and eat for free), whereas the whole 'millennial avocado toast is why they can't afford a house' thing really reinforced the 'cheaper is better' on food, which sucks because in some cases it has a really huge point - even if the only reason it has a point is because things have gotten so bad. much like it's easier to reach into my pocket and hit my nic vape than it is to stop, think, listen to what my body is actually asking for, and then do that. there are many reasons why this is easier said than done, disability/neurodivergencies aside, but i'm really focusing on how our goal has been set to try to silence what our body is telling us, rather than listen and then give our body what it's asking for, which informs what we choose to consume. money informing our consumption seems to be a core part of how we interpret 'survival' these days, or even the world itself - "if what i'm consuming isn't saving/making me money, it's not productive to be consuming." i'm STILL doing EXACTLY this, i've never not done this i think, except i'm having to sort of come at it from a really wide angle lens... "if i'm not eating good food i won't do good work so i should "selfishly"(not, that's internalized) INVEST in good food for my body so i can get my WORK done." work is always the primary motivator, i can't just 'do something for myself' apparently, though i can work at it haha. i can't really shake this ideology, or the need for it due to simply living in this society, so i do my best to modify it because self care is a necessity for me, and give myself more opportunities to eat good food, because i'd rather eat good food and be miserable about my choices not being my own than do the same thing while eating bad food or even nothing, as i have for a long time. it's almost like i'm using capitalism to trick myself into loving myself xD deeeefinitely not what eeeeveryone is doing too. haha. it really rears it's ugly head when people end up making sacrifices to their bodies to save money, which i definitely think we all do in some/every way and it's super easy to do at mealtime, thereby giving us an excuse to justify spending said saved money on any vice we might choose (my jar tips from that day were my bud money. NOT a great investment when cobb salads and rent exist.). which also fucks the body lol, but ironically i don't think we'd have much of a void in our lives to abuse substances/SH/etc if we reinvested from the vice into our diets haha. this is just a theory i have yet to put into practice but it seems to be true based on how apples taste it's fucking annoying but the people who say to exercise and change your diet when you're depressed are lowkey deadass. it's not the cure by any stretch of the word, nor does it come close to helping with pulling you out of the decades long ruts or living in an existential horror novel for fucking real, but you can't stay consistently undepressed without them i believe. i've been working on my diet along with therapy and other things and i feel great, but i truly think i won't feel true happiness until i start running again consistently, even for a short time. getting myself to run again has been my absolute biggest hurdle and i've done it once or twice in the last 2-ish years. that's my big goal right now, go enjoy running again. it's hard to be depressed biting into an apple or running on nature trails haha, but it's really easy to hate myself when i have to throw away the bones after eating KFC! :D ooh and also when your only experience of the world is your job/friends/favorite media, and you're not making the attempt to LITERALLY go run through nature to remind yourself that it's still fuckin there, your scope of what the world is is totally changed, which also easily enables denial of and reinforcement of the inevitability of climate change. 'touch grass' is more than just an internet burn lmao it hurtssss
Not harming animals is a real big moral dilemma, animals are abused by humans on a massive scale, and it's not just for food, it's impossible not to be complicit in some way So what do we do, my way is to not overthink it but also not dismiss it.
@@garden.of.thistles But you can say that also with just about anything…right? Like say, living a more virtuous life in general? You’re telling me that being a vegan (i.e., “you shouldn’t eat meat bc all animal’s lives deserves and are of equal in values & worth to human beings”) is actually as important (or maybe more important to u idk) as all the other virtues? There’s just no way you can even begin to rationally categorize these levels of ideas into a long lasting theory; I mean you’re essentially telling me that eating chicken wings & steaks are of equal in moral responsibility to, say, abandoning my kids, it would makes no sense.
@@meaningofreason "I mean you’re essentially telling me that eating chicken wings & steaks are of equal in moral responsibility to, say, abandoning my kids, it would makes no sense". no they didnt, they said "If we realize we have the option to do less harm, then we should.", which essentially means "try your best to not do bad things". you then purposefully interpreted this poorly and threw out a bunch of random strawman arguments. youre obviously young, probably mid-early teens, just starting to figure out who you are. its tough. for me theyll probably end up being some of the toughest of my life. i wont tell you go "go vegan", youre not there yet - though, do try to think about the victims of your actions. the animals you eat are all as capable of feeling hurt as you are. put yourself in their shoes. before you respond, google "watch dominin", click the first link, and tell me how long you lasted
First step is to do the thing you know will make a difference. Eat vegan, buy vegan unless you don't know it's not; seek information and get educated about what you're paying form. That's already a great start. Appealing to fatality is never going to help.
@@meaningofreason Umm yes, if you know better, do better. If you learned that your favorite chocolate bar was harvested by slave workers, you'd hopefully stop buying it, and find an alternative. If you realize that an animals life is worth more then 15min of taste, then don't kill them. You don't need to overthink it. You can care about humans, and animals, and other issues all at the same time.
@@uwinsomeulearnsomeSome people have so many allergies and auto immune disorders that they can’t eat any vegetable matter what so ever because they’d be so sick their life wouldn’t be worth living.
My solution was this after 7 months of Experience and Testing and its very lengthy: 1 1/2 tbsp of Rice (white and/or brown) 1 tbsp of Beans (Take your pick, as I use pinto beans) 1/4 cup of Frozen Mixed Vegetables (I use corn, peas, carrots, lima beans, and green beans) 1/2 tbs of Nuts (Take your pick, as I use peanuts) 1 tbsp of already cooked Meat (Chicken, Beef, or Pork) 1 Round Pickle Slice 1 tsp of Olive Oil (some have flavored oil, take your pick as I use Garlic, Basil, or Tuscan Herb) 1/8 tsp of Seasoning (Use your favorite, as I use Stake Seasoning) 1 small slice of Potato roughly 2 inches in diameter, and about 1/2 inch thick. 1 tbsp of Sauce (Use your favorite sauce, as I use General Tso or Low Sodium Teriyaki) 1/2 tbsp of Gravy Mix (Used as a thickener, as I use either Beef or a Country Fried Gravy) 1 tsp of Concentrated Lemon Juice 1 cup of Water Desert: Some Mixed Fruit (Take your pick, as I use Pineapple, Strawberries, Grapes, and Peaches). This makes 1 meal. I eat this every 2 hours and 20 minutes for about 6 meals total for the day. I cook the Rice, Beans, Peanuts, Mixed Vegetables, Seasoning, and Water every 2 hours to keep the Eating Schedule consistent and accurate and then add the rest of the ingredients. Set a timer if you have to, as I do. I combine the Rice, Beans, Peanuts, Mixed Vegetables, Seasoning, and Water into a Pressure Cooker (I use an InstantPot) for 18 minutes on high. Let cool for 15 minutes, put the ingredients into a small bowl and then add the rest of the ingredients in. Stir well, and you will have about a Cup (Measurement) of food. I weigh 120 roughly so you will have to scale it to your weight if you want to try it. It's very cheap if you can buy the Rice and Beans in Bulk, as well as other ingredients if you can. I can't give an exact scale because all packaging is different as well as different people with different weight, needs, allergies and more, but if you get the Rice and Beans in Bulk, and get the other ingredients, I'm sure you can find a shopping/food pattern that works for you. It's a lot of Personal Testing, but it will be worth it in the long run. Much Cheaper, Healthier, and Sustainable, to me anyways. If you give it a try, I'm sure you will enjoy the benefits. My Rant is done. Good Luck!
okay fuck this is interesting. setting aside how the FUCK you have an eating schedule (it's just my adhd lmao i'll get used to it), i'm curious about some things - i'm curious as to whether this strategy takes into account different nutrition groups and the necessary amount of intake for ideal health. i find that as my food cravings cycle im looking for different forms of nutrition at different times, like i'll eat apples and bananas for a couple days and then i can eat nothing but dark chocolate and almonds for a few days. my craving for nutrition shifts based on what im deficient in i think. i don't know shit about the food pyramid (which i always thought was a stupid diagram) so i have a very, VERY loose grasp on what nutrition actually is, so something like this that breaks down nutritional needs into literal, physical measurements that can be compared to the measurements of the other nutritional groups, and then seen visually in the ratio of foods at each meal, helps a great deal with determining where my nutritional deficits are and keeping them balanced; so this would be a great tool for that haha --------- as for the tablespoon of already cooked meat, is that simply because there's no 1:1 nutritional replacement for meat, and that's the best/minimum amount necessary for getting nutrition from the meat while avoiding meat being the primary food that's being "enjoyed"? or is that a recipe thing because 13-15 mins in the pressure cooker isn't enough to cook the meat all the way through lol also a weird thought about the 'morals' of precooked vs uncooked - = im gonna use the phrase "spiritual bypassing" here even though this is not how it's supposed to be used, but if the goal is to revoke support for the meat industry, buying precooked would only shift the immediate moral 'guilt'(floabt) to whoever bought the uncooked meat from grinders to then cook and sell. like, it's adding another layer of moral padding by filtering it through someone else... a sort of "spiritual bypassing" so the weight of the guilt is dispersed between each of the people whose hands it passes through. i don't bring this up to encourage "taking responsibility" by taking the emotional L and buying uncooked or whatever just to make urself feel bad lol, but rather i'm contemplating about unintentionally supporting the cycle by way of going against it. idk just some thoughts haha. thank you!!
I for one am an amoral vegan/vegetarian (I sometimes will eat an egg or yogurt). Sure, I care about animal treatment but that isn't my main motivation. Since I was a very young child I just found the idea of eating animal flesh disgusting. Growing up in a "carni" household I was conditioned to eat meat but as an adult in full control of my diet I stopped eating it. If you do choose to eat meat try to eat organic meat so you aren't consuming the antibiotics and GMO grains laced with pesticides and herbicides that the factory farmed animals are plumped up with. Also you won't be contributing to the environmental damage caused by factory farming. Love your ramblings Jonny!
Your argument for cod liver oil is kinda where I stand for still eating meat - I was vegetarian for 3 years as a teenager at my utmost empathetic, however now with a physical job/active need, I simply need the protein and haven't gotten proficient enough at cooking/haven't got enough money to find my protein from plant alternatives. Impossible burgers and stuff are pretty rad though I look forward to the future of ending suffering. P.S. I am volunteering on a livestock farm and feel bad for these animals almost daily; but I will say organic farms and to a lesser extent free range farms are a step in the right moral direction.
im not vegan or vegitarian, but i was eating lots of quorn and other meat substitutes for a few years but i havnt been able to eat a lot of it lately because its starting to taste a bit weird. im curious if anyone else experienced this. like i would buy a new quorn thing anytime i would see it, and it would taste nice, but after getting it maybe the 4th or 5th time the taste just gets too much and then i cant stomach it any more. with meats like chicken or whatever i could eat it every day for weeks and that would never happen. i wonder if its because the meat substitutes are kind of bland so they have to put in a lot of flavouring to mask that
Human teeth would suggest we evolved to be omnivores. Incisors, canines, molars. We have a little of everything. Ruminants we are not. By evolution, at least.
Can you devour a raw carcass with just your teeth and nails? Is that what you do for lunch every day? The strength in the human jaw is way below any real omnivore.
I kinda wish I could be vegetarian because of moral reasons but I truely hate all non meat sorces of protein to the point that I refuse entirely. I had a problem where I wasn't eating enough protein and my hair was falling out and was in a constant state of cold flush so I have to eat meat to be healthy :(
@willbyrob6582 I tried whey powder a few years ago in milkshakes and stuff but never committed to it. I should probably try again because it is a good idea
And now you're throwing some Wes Anderson type of framing at us, legend! I was a vegetarian for 3 months after watching "Earthlings", but then it realised that we don't have enough foods containing those substances that are in meat, so had to give up.
@ That's a slippery slope fallacy that means nothing. We're talking about not harming sentient animals unnecessarily. Sure, there's other things you could do for other causes, like limiting the damage to the environment. But you can do those things as well or recognize that you ought to do those things. There is no necessity whatsoever to eat animal products given the alternatives, and that is something to acknowledge and aim towards as a moral species, since those actions align with the values we claim to embody.
Reducing meat intake is abaolutely good enough and really quite important in general. If not for morals, then at least for the environmental impact. And if you still want to eat meat in a way that feels morally acceptable, look into ethically sourced animal products. It takes a lot of research and is often much more expensive, but you can have the nice things every once in a while as a treat and not have to really feel too awful about it. Sure an animal died for it, but it was an animal that lived a good life and was slaughtered at an appropriate time, ideally all while supporting a local family that likely exists purely off their ranching. I personally don't feel like anyone *has* to do any of these things, but if you're having qualms about meat eating and don't really like the idea of going totally vegan, then I feel that these are good first steps
1. "Buddha was vegan, then he realized it sucks." The Buddha was not vegan or vegetarian in the modern sense. During his time, monks and nuns in the Theravāda tradition were mendicants who relied on alms for food. They ate whatever was offered to them, provided it met the "Threefold Purity" rule (the animal was not killed specifically for them). The Buddha's teachings prioritize the middle path (avoiding extremes of self-indulgence and self-denial), which includes a practical approach to food. Refusing certain foods, like meat, when offered as alms might have been seen as an unnecessary rigidity in this context. 2. "Then he passed away from eating meat." This is a common misunderstanding based on the Mahāparinibbāna Sutta, which describes the Buddha’s final days. It’s said that he ate a dish called sukara-maddava, often translated as "soft pork" or "boar's delight." However, scholars debate the meaning of sukara-maddava. Some suggest it was a type of mushroom or plant dish rather than meat. Regardless, the Buddha’s death was due to natural causes, likely food poisoning, and not "karma" in the sense of a moral retribution for eating meat. 3. "Karma." The concept of karma in Buddhism is nuanced and doesn’t work as immediate retribution. Karma refers to intentional actions and their effects on future rebirths and experiences. Eating meat offered as alms, under the guidelines provided, would not generate negative karma for monastics.
@@discursion 1. Buddha ate nothing while sitting under a tree for 49 days, most would consider this vegan. Afterwards he told his followers to eat food, because it keeps them alive. But I'll change it to "fasting" to settle you down. 2. The meat was tainted, he still died from eating meat lol, but okay I'll add "tainted" before meat to settle you down. 3. I never said its "immediate retribution", calm down.
@@TegridyMadeGames I thought the additions to the conversation were quite interesting, actually. It's interesting to understand the nuance, which was missing from your original comment.
My groceries are waaayy cheaper since going vegan, I have no idea where this myth of veganism being expensive comes from? Just don't splurge on packaged foods.
@@burnttoast8235 My bad, I realize I totally misread your comment, oops. I'm also an aspiring homesteader, I've been surrounded by homesteaders and off grid people for a lot of my life, and from my experience, the animal husbandry part of homesteading is not as caring or nobel as you'd like to imagine. In most cases raising animals is totally unnecessary for self sufficiency, and a lot of cruelty still happens on small backyard farms and homesteads.
I recognize the suffering of animals in a world where meat is mass produced/industrialized. What I would argue is a happier middle ground is only eating meat/meat products you know are ethically sourced. For example; if you know someone, personally, that owns chickens let's say, and the chickens will obviously produce eggs, and you also know that they're treated well, can roam freely, are taken care of when they're ill, given proper housing, etc., then getting eggs from that person isn't a bad thing. You mentioned that, in at least your opinion, you don't find hunting for the sake of eating to be necessarily ethically wrong. I would agree, and therefore see no wrong with consumption of meat itself, so long as you know that the animal you're eating was treated well and given a good, long life and that it died naturally/of natural causes. I think we could maybe sleep (or rather, eat) a bit better if we knew that the sustenance we were consuming came from animals that were treated just as we prefer to be treated. Obviously this means that most of us probably wouldn't have access to meat unless we raised the animals ourselves, but what's the harm in that anyways? Anyways, there's my two cents. I love the shots you set up in your videos and appreciate the rambling. I enjoy your art very much! Much love
Chickens were selectively bread to lay eggs this often. It's the equivalent of a woman having a period every day, all her life. I would consider that suffering. The egg is the chicken's period btw. Naturally they were made to lay only about 4 eggs a year. Then, just like Josh mentioned in the video, egg laying chickens get culled, about half of them have to be killed because they are male. There is no such thing as ethically sourced animal product, nothing, nada
"so long as you know that the animal you're eating was treated well and given a good, long life and that it died naturally/of natural causes." - bullets and arrows are not natural causes, also cows live like 20 years and they become less meaty in their old age. Besides after you feed a cow for 20 years you will not feel like eating it. Sorry, this fantasy just can't come true. So, you'll have to make your ethical decisions based on how things really are today.
I was the same, then I discovered fried tofu seasoned with "black salt" is almost identical. Totally scratches the egg itch. And tofu is so much better for you!
I would say most emotionally intelligent people have a problem with factory farming. But vegans that are “morally superior” looking down on non vegan eaters is…not morally superior. We all look through different lenses and most of the time those lenses are based on routine and experience. Mass production and treatment of animals is the core issue imo.
Most vegans couldn't care less about moral superiority, they discuss morals to get others to see the horrors they are contributing to and to try to get them to stop.
The real problem is modern farming, cramming hundreds of animals into a confined space and making them live through a living hell, which I don’t support. If it’s done properly and the animal is reared outdoors in a field then killed quickly and humanely after a good life there should be no suffering whatsoever. Whether we like it or not humans have evolved to be omnivores, we have a dual digestive system, an acidic stomach for digesting meat and protein and a large intestine for fermenting vegetable fibre. There’s nothing wrong with eating meat, it’s natural. Also some people have certain health problems which mean they can only eat meat otherwise they wouldn’t be able to function properly.
So if being evolved to eat someone makes it okay do so, it sounds like if a tribe evolves to eat babies, by your logic, you would have to be okay with them eating babies
There is no way to kill something without suffering. Even if there were it's kind of messed up to kill something that's perfectly happy, especially when there are other options.
In my opinion, if you're an alpha male type, or a strong woman, you will more likely attract to high quality protein such as meat, steak etc. You'll probably attract to similar people too. The beta male, or those people of a weaker nature, those who tend to be soft, skinny and potbelly type males; the ones who are happy for the stronger people to stand in the way of danger and who wonder around hunched over like weak little hunchbacks; those people are more likely to eat anything, because they have no need to maintain a strong posture...or a strong will. Meat is the best source of high quality food. Eggs, fish and dairy is the second best and plants and beans are the weakest form. If you want to raise weak people, then make them vegans. They do say the meek will inherit the earth. The problem is, there will always be strong people out there (good or bad) who will come and take control of your life. It is usually at that time you wished you had strong upstanding men around you to protect you.
Been vegan for almost 6 years now after turning on a video to make fun of vegans, but realized 20 minutes in that I was an absolute hypocrite, so I decided to align my actions with my morals and went vegan on the spot
8 year vegan here. Honestly it is brilliant to hear someone just taking the issue seriously and not giving the predictable defences. I had a good chuckle at some of your off-the-cuff thoughts. It can be so heavy, so it's relieving to laugh at.
I remember meeting some vegans as a teenager when they were protesting in the street. They had this little booth where they were showing them documentaries about animal slaughter. I didn't go in and watch the video. It only took a conversation with one of the vegans about what people do to animals to reduce me to tears.
If I was living at home and refusing to eat meat, I would be in a pretty difficult situation. We were not a well off family, so it was really "you get what you're given". But I remember saying to the vegan, and to myself, that I would stop eating meat after I leave home.
I started uni a few years later. I didn't immediately go vegan, but eventually I remembered that conversation and stopped eating meat. I kept eating dairy, because I didn't really get what was wrong with it at the time. Plus, I loved milk and cheese. I was vegatarian for nearly 10 years.
More recently I learned more about animals being slaughtered for dairy. Like you said, about the guy whose job it is to kill all those male chickens. I didn't immediately stop, but it bothered me. But I still told myself things like "I love milk and cheese, and there's no good cheese alternatives right now. So why change?"
But I realised that making the best choices often means sacrificing something that brings you joy. You can't always have the best of everything. That is our burden of responsibility. I'm willing to stop enjoying certain things, even if there's no good substitute, to help reduce the suffering of others.
And in the end, I know I would rather be a disatisfied human than a contented monster.
The point you bring up about knobhead vegans is actually not something I'd considered- I just more or less repeated the same thing to myself about "I just wish vegans weren't assholes about it" while at the same time I've never had that kind of interaction with a vegan in my life. Thanks for the video big man.
The thing is that vegans wish non-vegans would stop being assholes to animals. I also imagine that most of your interactions with vegans must have been online; this is true for any discourse - people tend to be more civile when they're not disembodied word sequences.
But you also need to understand vegans are on the front lines of seeing the horrors humans are doing to animals.. you would be a an asshole to frustrated at the world
bit conspiratorial here but i wonder if that sentiment has been pushed a little by animal produce companies, the same way there are climate activist groups doing stunts paid for by the fossil fuel industry
11 year vegan here, clocking in for my comment. I could go on at length so I will sum up with bullet points.
You're a badass for thinking about this as clearly as you can with the tools you have, and making your thought open to revision. Kudos to you for this, regardless of the outcome.
As a vegan, I have made my choice as consistent as possible by imagining the animal's suffering at the point of purchase or the moment before consumption. Yeah, it could be yummy, but in my mind, the extent to which I'm wishing evil upon the heads of those who cannot fight back is the extent to which I must remain silent and even aid those who wish to cause me suffering because they are stronger and can dominate me arbitrarily. That extent is zero.
I'm a hypocrite to the extent that I cannot enact this rubric whenever I have two choices and the one that causes less suffering is obvious, and I choose the one that gives me more pleasure and causes more suffering. These can be found all over the place if we just aim our minds at it for even a brief length of time.
If the idea is that you should only do something good if you can apply the idea universally to all things immediately it will result in a non-skillful way to move through the world. A more skillful way to move through the world involves sustained incremental progress. It is not easy, but it is more skillful in that it attends to our nature even as we grow and change. Doing our best means opting for skill if it is in our power to do so.
Watch your video back and pause to consider those places where you've not allowed yourself to complete critical thoughts. At 14:07, you start to question "Do we want to live in an industrialized world where... well we already do live in an industrialized world…so I don't know." There was a solid thought there, but you cut yourself off. If we don't want to live in a world that does thing "x" then it stands to reason that we should not contribute to thing "x" if we can help it.
I went on longer than I wanted to and still have more to say.
Again, I'm not perfect. I make mistakes. There are a great many things I do that I could stand not to, but I haven't been able to stop myself from doing the thing I don't agree with or I haven't been able to sustain my ability to do the thing I do agree with. Just as I recognize my faults, I recognize the faults of others and I wish everyone all the best. We're fighting something that is very tough to fight. You're out there sitting in some area I don't recognize rambling to yourself and trying to work out age old questions. If you're really asking yourself earnestly, I can't ask for anything better. As you mentioned, the consequences for even thinking about tough questions out loud can be dire. It can be much more pleasant to go along with what's happening thoughtlessly. You can gain and maintain friendships with those who choose to move through the world with similar thoughtlessness and the feeling of connection to others can feel pretty good. Depriving yourself of those good feelings can be painful. It's only when we aim at easing the suffering of others or improving the lives of others that I become uncomfortable enough with unskillful choices to end unskillful behaviors.
Reducing universal suffering is very Buddhist in nature. I think the phrase ''we've always done it this way'' sums up meat eaters today, and it will be a long time before there's any real change. In developing countries vegetarians and vegans are growing, and whether its just trendy, its a start in the right direction to reduce suffering. We have the capacity to change nature, because we are nature. Interesting topic. 🙌
Reducing suffering is not only Buddhist, but quite a universal principle among all of humanity, and all religions have pointed in that direction. But religion has often been made to give erroneous recommendations due to the state of survival in the specific era when it took form and the reforms made for convenience. You'll be disappointed to hear that even today, most buddhists will accept meat if it's given as an offering.
Here's Chat-GPT about it:
"In many Buddhist traditions, monks and nuns are allowed to eat meat if it is offered to them as alms, provided certain conditions are met. This practice aligns with the Vinaya (monastic code) and varies depending on the specific school of Buddhism. Key points include:
1. The "Threefold Purity" Rule: According to the Theravāda tradition, monks and nuns may eat meat if they are confident the animal was not:
- Specifically killed for them,
- Requested to be killed by them, or
- Killed as part of a ritual sacrifice for their consumption.
This ensures that they are not directly involved in causing harm.
2. Compassion and Gratitude: In Buddhist ethics, accepting alms reflects gratitude and humility. Monastics rely entirely on donations for sustenance, and refusing an offering could cause distress to the giver.
3. Vegetarianism in Other Traditions: In Mahāyāna Buddhism, especially in East Asia, vegetarianism is strongly encouraged or required in some sects, such as Zen or Pure Land. This is due to the emphasis on compassion (karuṇā) for all sentient beings and the Bodhisattva ideal of avoiding harm to others.
4. Cultural and Regional Practices: The stance on meat consumption often reflects the historical and cultural contexts where Buddhism developed. For example:
In Tibet and Mongolia, where vegetation is sparse, meat consumption is more common and accepted. In countries like China or Taiwan, vegetarianism is more strictly practiced among monastics."
@discursion You're right. I guess what I was trying to say was that I've found the philosophy of universal compassion more apparent in buddhism when it comes to animals. Jesus ate fish, bible says eating meat is ok and so does the quran.
I guess if your next life depends on it, you're more inclined to be passionate as it would mean your actions have consequences.
Which begs the question, are most only nice because they're hoping for a good afterlife? Is that compassion or selfishness?
It works the same when you do a good deed for someone, it makes you feel good too. Nothing is altruistic, we all gain something from being nice, regardless of why we choose to do it.
Thanks for your reply ✌️
@@DanDevey I understand where you're coming from. I find religion and its promise of a greater afterlife to be a poor argument for morality, but you can see that acting out of pure selflessness for solely for the greater good is not immediately accessible to most people, especially where direct needs aren't met, so it's a fair middle-ground for people to behave more responsibly at scale if only for their own personal sake. But I think it's possible for us to act selflessly as well, even in ways that don't make us feel immediately good or benefit us personally. I don't think that the sense in which we feel good about making action that we deem morally good can be called "selfish". There's needs to be a reason for us acting, and being aligned with what we believe to be right or good doesn't not necessarily entail being selfish, even if we use to word "good" to describe how we might feel about it.
@@discursion In my eyes we are all the same stuff, so helping others is essentially helping ourselves. Maybe there is something deeper resonating beyond being consciously good; that doesn't consider reward. But if so why isn't killing animals viewed the same as killing a human? Or a pet?
I think your morality is conditioned to your surroundings - good is defined by us and our societies.
Killing something only sucks in a society where no one grows up killing their own food. You can be conditioned to enjoy killing and believe it will do you good in the afterlife. I don't believe Vikings felt bad about killing for example.
Good is a human creation that is rooted in circumstance. So I still believe nothing is altruistic, even if you're fully selfless like taking a bullet for someone, in the grand scheme the universe lives on.
Interesting conversation 🙌
I guess a counter argument is acts of kindness between animals. Hmm. 😂
addressing your two hurdles: 9:53
1)Before I switched, I also thought I only liked regular milk. But once you make the switch to vegan, you'll likely find yourself craving plant-based milk if you use it consistently as a substitute. I’ve noticed that our bodies tend to crave familiarity more than a specific food itself.
2)There is good vegan cheese out there! I used to think otherwise, but food engineering has made incredible strides in recent years. My tip? Go for the most processed, artificial-looking vegan cheese you can find-none of that "healthy" vegan stuff. In my experience, good and "healthy" vegan cheese simply don’t go hand in hand.
this isn't to 'debunk' your reasons. there are pleanty of good reasons to not choose veganism, so do what you feel is right for you health-wise and morally. veganism isnt an all or nothing kind of thing. :)
True, and even if there wasn't good vegan cheese out there, who cares? I'd rather go without any cheese (plant based or not) than support the kind of torture involved with dairy production.
Please do a video elaborating on the electric eels that can go up your knob.
I avoided meat now i eat meat and dairy everyday and eggs and feel the best i ever have
Modern ag, at least in the US, is mostly for livestock feed, which is problematic for the soil and for resources. Eating meat today makes less sense over time.
An animal's life should not be forfeit, for the fleeting pleasures of taste. Consider being mindful of what it is you are actually consuming. Try something new!
I can see where you’re coming from, but I would like to invite you to entertain this for a bit: in a Hunter-gatherer settings, he/she does not hunt and eat animals merely bc they ‘seek pleasure and taste’ per se (although those can be secondary); after all there is such a thing when a provider needed to hunt for food in order to sustain his/her own family or group, so organically one’s hunting or process of ‘looking for food’ isn’t always just a self-indulgence matter & often it is grounded in a kind of higher purpose that binds such activities. Now, this is not a philosophical justification for eating meat particularly, im not interested in convincing you to eat meat or otherwise, as much as its about revealing the logic and nature of your argument: you presupposed that eating meat is something that merely services these desires of fleeting pleasures and taste, but ppl in general also self-indulges in food and things other than meat all the time. So while it seems like the right kind of argument for not eating meat, it fell short in its justification.
@@meaningofreason Are you a hunter gatherer? Most vegans understand that survival situations justify certain violent acts, such defending yourself against another person or preditor, or killing an animal because the only other option is starvation. Unless you are in such a situation, your choice to kill an animal is completely based on a taste preference. Most people in the modern world eat animals because they've never questioned it, not because they need to. You can't justify unnecessary violence by pointing out that violence is sometimes necessary in a completely different context.
@@garden.of.thistles most of the modern world eat meat bc they’ve never questioned it, not because they have to? You’re definitely not cooking on this one (no pun intended 😉), so what they’ve never questioned it? Are they obligated to not eat meat like the rest of the others do through out millennia just bc they “live in the modern world,”? Where exactly do you draw the lines on who or which group are allowed to eat meat and whom shouldn’t-and when they DO eat meat in regions where you think they shouldn’t or regions that are more “modern”, does it suddenly makes them bad impulsive people then who just eat food for tastes?
Very poor philosophy. It’s okay tho, if you’re a vegan and u think you’re helping & that makes you feel better about yourself then that’s good, I have nothing against that lmao. But don’t think just bc you’re a vegan that makes you so much more pious and have more self control than everybody else bc you’re “not eating food for taste” as a vegan.
p.s. I’m done with arguing w randoms online, this is way too dumb
@@garden.of.thistles oh and let me make you a spinach hamburger w/ some sauce, but don’t worry about the taste, in fact let just take the Mayo out too bc mayo is not vegan friendly it’s not about the taste it’s about discipline and moral values baby
@@meaningofreason Some of the meatiest, most mayo covered burgers I've ever eaten in my life have been vegan, meat eaters really dont know anything about how easily replacable their animal products are lmao. There's no reason to be so condescending to one little comment I made. Most people who stop eating meat do so because they do begin to question things like whether it is necessary or not. I'm not vegan to feel better about myself, I'm vegan because I educated myself about the animal ag industry, as well as other forms of animal exploitation, as well as the SERIOUS harm it does to people working in that industry, specifically slaughter house workers (highest rates of mental illness, PTSD, limb loss and bodily injuries compared to any other job), and decided I thought it was unjust to support. You made a lot of very silly assumptions about me and veganism based on a lack of understanding the topic or philosophy.
It's great that you're thinking about the issue of veganism and animal rights. I highly recommend checking out the Gary Yourofsky speech (think it is titled the most important speech you will ever hear". I also recommend the Carnism Debunked website for all the most common arguments.
Here's more of the philosophical side:
Veganism is an applied ethical position that seeks to grant animals the same negative rights as trait adjusted human beings.
If we argue that it is morally acceptable to breed, exploit, enslave, and ultimately kill non-human animals, while asserting that such actions are wrong when applied to humans, we must identify a morally relevant trait that justifies this asymmetrical treatment. What is the symmetry breaker between humans and non-human animals that makes it morally permissible to kill and exploit non-human animals, but not the other way around? To be logically consistent, any trait you cite as a reason for justifying the killing of non-human animals would also imply that if a human lacked that trait, it would be acceptable to kill them as well.
The more you think about this question, you will begin to realize essentially any trait difference you put forth will result in absurdities. For example, intelligence is often a trait that is used to justify the exploitation of animals. This leads to a contradiction in most people’s view as most of us would not be in favour of killing mentally handicapped human beings whom possess less intelligence than say a chicken.
Propositional logic (source: uproot nutrition)
P(x) - (x) has moral worth
Q(x) - we should exploit (x) to any greater degree than we would tolerate for trait-adjusted humans
R(t,x) - there exists a (t) that is absent in (x)
x - a being
t - trait
a - animal
h - human
P1) For all things, if a being has moral worth, then we should not exploit it to any greater degree than we would tolerate for trait-adjusted humans.
(∀x(Px→¬Qx))
P2) If animals don’t have moral worth, then there exists a trait that is absent in animals such that if it were absent in humans, humans wouldn’t have moral worth.
(¬Pa→∃t(Rta→(Rth→¬Ph)))
P3) There doesn’t exist a trait that is absent in animals such that if it were absent in humans, humans wouldn’t have moral worth.
(¬∃t(Rta→(Rth→¬Ph)))
C) Therefore, we should not exploit animals to any greater degree than we would tolerate for trait-adjusted humans.
(∴¬Qa)
I could say more words but the one point I want to get across is that the all or nothing approach of either you should be 100% vegan or it doesn't matter is really stupid. It focuses way more on individuals' own moral implication than the actual goal of reducing suffering.
I will actually add a second thing: The meat industry does an insane amount of damage to the environment (which we live in, and are affected by), so whether you or I give a shit about animals or not, the meat industry is probably pretty harmful. Also antibiotics...
Why would you choose a little bit of murder, when you can have no murder at all?
@@lobstersucker69 because at the moment most people choose "lot of murder" instead of "little bit of murder". For things to improve a lot it doesn't have to be perfect. Don't fall for the black and white, we against them, thinking.
@@lobstersucker69 You're missing the point. I'm saying it doesn't matter how much murdering any individual person does, it matters how many murders are actually happening.
Lets say people in an imaginary society on average murder 10 other people a year. Then there's some people who are against murder and some of them only murder 1 person a year and some of them murder 0 people a year, but outside of the small number of anti murder people most people just continue on murdering 10 people a year. The 0 murderers yelling at the 1 murderers that they should be murdering 0 people isn't going to reduce the amount of murders happening in society to 0.
"Why would you choose a little bit of murder, when you can have no murder at all?" - My original comment is just saying that a given person doing 0 murder is not the same as 'having no murder happening at all'.
Boiling everything down to individuals on their own refusing to buy animal products doesn't actually achieve vegans' ostensible end goal unless literally everyone does it, and right now, almost nobody even tries so I think it's safe to say that isn't going to happen or come anywhere close to happening. It's basically impossible even if you try as hard as you can to avoid indirectly causing any harm to any humans or animals or whatever categorization one thinks has moral value. The focus should be on changing society in a way that less harm happens overall, not just on your own avoiding buying certain things.
Also to some extent trying to convince others of certain accounts of base level morality seems futile, since you're reaching such a fundamental level of philosophy the only thing left is being consistent or inconsistent with your beliefs, and most people just don't care about being 100% consistent with all of their beliefs. There's also really no reason to think that just by making your belief structure more consistent you are inherently always making it more 'correct' in some universal sense, as you could be mistaken about something else and simply be reaching towards some local minimum. There aren't really any actual ways of confirming that any given thing is correct or not (it's not like we can run experiments or something on philosophy), and no way of getting everyone to believe in and follow the same moral philosophy.
@@lobstersucker69 I tried to leave a reply but it seems youtube blocked it, maybe because of words like murder I dunno. Anyway you're missing my point, unfortunately I can't give my explanation though apparently :/
@@lobstersucker69 It isn’t murder, they’re animals.
i am not vegan because i like the taste of animals
Refreshing to hear someone talking about these issues, as a meat eater. I felt as you do and made the change over ten years ago as a result, because it just felt like the easier option compared with having to grapple with the issue in my mind repeatedly. Great videos. Keep up the good work!
The difference between Middle East conflicts and animal suffering… is that you don’t personally contribute to Middle East conflicts. And you do currently personally contribute to animal suffering.
@@johnsullivan873 I don't necessarily agree. You have to vote for someone and that choice had consequences, you have to pay tax and that money has consequences. But I do see what you mean.
@@rubyrogers239 He's saying that your impact is much more direct when it comes to food you're immediately paying for. It's much less obvious how voting might even impact those geopolitics, and it's much less obvious what you can do about it except protesting; when it comes to ending animal exploitation, you just have to not do the actions that induce demand. You're already actively committing a harm, and you just have to stop doing it.
The money in your bank account is probably funding genocide and climate change rn
There's no reason to please vegans or meat-eaters. You have to live with your own decisions, knowing what they mean - as long as you're OK with your decisions, that's enough
I always kinda though about the idea of going vegan precisely for moral reasons, I never really liked meat that much, but milk products were like solid 30% of my diet and I could not imagine living without it... until i became not lactose intolerant, but completely intolerant to any kind of milk products (I'm talking having severe stomach pains after eating a slice of lactose-free cheese). So I was forced to transition to plant-based alternatives and, you know, it's not actually that bad (I don't know how it would be if it was not forced by my health condition). And so I thought that it is time to align my morals to my actions, since it really is not hard to give up other animal products, it's just a matter of what you are used to.
On the point of humans being omnivores: yeah, ok, but we also are a species capable of compassion. I think the biggest misunderstanding between meat eaters and vegans is that meat eaters engage in a debate about health, while vegans are talking about the morals of animal exploitation. I can sacrifice a bit of my health for my morals if I can sacrifice it for fun by drinking alcohol.
And, bonus, you don't have to sacrifice a bit of health to be vegan.
Morally, yeah absolutely vegans have a strong point. In my case, as a person who eats meat, I very much have thought about it from time to time over the years, but I havent truly sat down and considered it/tried going atleast vegetarian. My dad is vegetarian, so it wouldnt be too much of a shock for the family's cooking, but I think the main reason as to why I havent truly considered it and made the switch (because it absolutely is the morally right thing to do through my perspective) is convenience, my frank love for meat, and also this anxiety that if I do try to go cold turkey and make a full switch to vegetarianism, Ill miss out on this whole world of culinary delights that I have yet to really explore despite my love for food. Though I suppose it isnt much of an excuse - I very much could try to go mostly vegetarian, with space given for social events, finding new foods I want to try out etc. Sort of the "Social Drinker" of meat eating. Perhaps thats a model we should be pushing for on a society wide scale for those who are unwilling to become fully vegetarian (which Id imagine currently is the majority of people) - meat as the food of social events etc. rather then the everyday food it is now. Doesnt fully solve the problem or anything like that, but I feel it would be a very strong harm reduction both morally and environmentally.
@@bapabs tbh i became way more explorative with my cooking and with trying dishes after becoming vegetarian because i kinda had to. Believe me there is a whole world of food out there that is just as interesting as any meat dish and fake meat fills the void enough id never even think of going back
@@natvrgal the same goes for me when i moved from vegetarianism to veganism, and id also never even think of going back
it made me waste away and suffer in the process. can't put my ethics over my health....
It can be done without compromising health.
True, alot of people don't understand nutrition and think its vegan it's healthy which is not true
Great conversation, I think most vegans relate with you and have been where you are.
I definitely recommend checking out Earthling Ed, literally just click the first video you see that interests you.
Thanks for the video!
Earthling Ed definitely put me onto veganism. His arguments are so powerful and he does and excellent job of having discussions on veganism without being condescending.
The principal can be established that for a man who does not cheat, what he believes to be true must determine his action
“In my view, the animal rights movement is, at its core, a movement about ending violence to all sentient beings. It is a movement that seeks fundamental justice for all. It is an emerging peace movement that does not stop at the arbitrary line that separates humans from nonhumans.”
- Gary L. Francione
Really refreshing to hear this take. Another great video!
I ficking love you Johnny mozza, love your videos, constant musings
"and all of that standard disclaimer sort of stuff..." lmao i love you man
I don't feel like eating chicken anymoe.
I try not to worry too much about what other people think. No pun intended but I don't think we should be walking on eggshells about topics that should probably be talked about.
I don't take issue with consuming animals, it's a perfectly natural process and living organisms do it, but I do take issue with the ethic of *how* we do it and the industrial process.
I personally don't eat chicken or chicken byproducts because they're statistically the most abused animal (which does suck because they're also the most ecofriendly animal to farm)
I think society needs to move away from the idea that meat is a part of our regular diet and instead view it as something more for a treat, or occasions.
Do you think that because something is natural is means its ethical? This is known as an appeal to nature fallacy.
If we argue that it is morally acceptable to breed, exploit, enslave, and ultimately kill non-human animals, while asserting that such actions are wrong when applied to humans, we must identify a morally relevant trait that justifies this asymmetrical treatment. What is the symmetry breaker between humans and non-human animals that makes it morally permissible to kill and exploit non-human animals, but not the other way around? To be logically consistent, any trait you cite as a reason for justifying the killing of non-human animals would also imply that if a human lacked that trait, it would be acceptable to kill them as well.
The more you think about this question, you will begin to realize essentially any trait difference you put forth will result in absurdities. For example, intelligence is often a trait that is used to justify the exploitation of animals. This leads to a contradiction in most people’s view as most of us would not be in favour of killing mentally handicapped human beings whom possess less intelligence than say a chicken.
Propositional logic (source: uproot nutrition)
P(x) - (x) has moral worth
Q(x) - we should exploit (x) to any greater degree than we would tolerate for trait-adjusted humans
R(t,x) - there exists a (t) that is absent in (x)
x - a being
t - trait
a - animal
h - human
P1) For all things, if a being has moral worth, then we should not exploit it to any greater degree than we would tolerate for trait-adjusted humans.
(∀x(Px→¬Qx))
P2) If animals don’t have moral worth, then there exists a trait that is absent in animals such that if it were absent in humans, humans wouldn’t have moral worth.
(¬Pa→∃t(Rta→(Rth→¬Ph)))
P3) There doesn’t exist a trait that is absent in animals such that if it were absent in humans, humans wouldn’t have moral worth.
(¬∃t(Rta→(Rth→¬Ph)))
C) Therefore, we should not exploit animals to any greater degree than we would tolerate for trait-adjusted humans.
(∴¬Qa)
@@namethetrait ”we should not exploit animals to any greater degree than we would tolerate for trait-adjusted humans,”
The justification presupposed that a human life is of equal worth & values in toto to, say, a chicken. Now, I love KFC right, so put me on the spot: am I a terrible person now and should be in horror realizing I just did a heinous crime equals to eating a human being?
I would hate to be that dude who have to do years in prison after trying to enjoyed some fried crispy chicken wings rofl
@@namethetraitoh and I would hate to have a vegan Judge, omg can you imagine?
And by the way, do you copy and paste all that? Bc there’s no way you think and talk to ppl in this way in real life
@ I guess you either misread what I said, or don't have the capacity to understand the proposition: ”we should not exploit animals to any greater degree than we would tolerate for trait-adjusted humans,”
Did you miss the part about "trait-adjusted"? For example, what is the moral difference between a pig with the intellect of a 3 year old child, and a 3 year old human child?
I would like to point out that you still have not addressed the question: If we argue that it is morally acceptable to breed, exploit, enslave, and ultimately kill non-human animals, while asserting that such actions are wrong when applied to humans, we must identify a morally relevant trait that justifies this asymmetrical treatment. What is the symmetry breaker between humans and non-human animals that makes it morally permissible to kill and exploit non-human animals, but not the other way around?
I think society needs to stop looking at animal as statistics, and rather see them as sentient individuals, which they are. Killing once in a while should not be seen as a treat. The only reasonable motivation for doing that is sheer necessity, not a luxury. This is precisely what led us to the current horrific situation with factory farms: colonialism and capitalism have turned meat into a luxury item that everyone wants to have in order to embody or signal a specific social status. That's an issue.
Always great to see someone consider veganism. Especially when it's so urgent for animals that we change our ways.
Few things:
- Plants do not have a central nervous system connected to a brain, so they do not feel pain as they lack the sentience to do so.
- Hunting is still unethical when it's not done for survival, as you can choose not to kill and eat plants instead.
- Even if you can't find alternatives that you like the taste of, does taste pleasure ever justify what animals go through?
- Reducing is better than not changing at all, but no one would accept reducing an action that's clearly immoral when it comes to other injustices like sexism or racism.
- Vegetarians still fund industries that are just as bad if not worse than the meat industry.
- The reason you don't stop is simply because you are socially conditioned to exploit animals.
- Watch the documentary "Dominion"
- Besides the obvious cruelty, breeding animals with the sole intent of eating either their body parts or what comes out of them is never a good idea.
- Animals are not resources here for us to use, they're individuals that live for themselves.
I hope you find the motivation to go vegan. It means everything to the animals.
I'm vegan. I agree with most of what you said in this video, and in the months before I went vegan my views were very similar to yours here.
For example, when I went vegan, I didn't think there was anything inherently wrong with us killing animals for food (although I would disagree now). It was enough for me to see that even the most "ethical" meat and dairy farming involved treating animals awfully, and most animals spend their lives in factory farms anyway.
Personally, I believe that if you are aware of the horrors that happen in animal farming, there is no justification to financially support the industry when you can survive as a vegan.
I agree with everything you said from the moral standpoint and feel pretty much the same, so i have nothing to say to that.
I find it's kinda hard and tedious to properly replace beneficial nutritious properties of animal based products through a purely vegan diet. I wanted to like tofu but it's pretty much like rubber. I don't eat a lot of meat because I'm terrible picky about food, which makes me feel like an ungrateful asshole and makes coming over for a meal somebody prepared for me a generally anxious experience because it's hard to explain to people that it's not their cooking, and in the Balkans, everything is about meat, and especially pork which I generally really don't like. I'm already having trouble maintaining proper weight and I look at all the people around me weighing 25kg more than me on average, and think to myself "I'm not the one who is supposed to be the one eating less of anything". Like, people here eat the shit out of pork. It's fucking pork everything. Christmas - pork. Secular holidays - pork. I understand it's how our people have survived for a very long time, but there's no reason to eat that much.
To get back from the tangent to the point I was trying to make - I really like vegetables and most fruit, but I can't really a large amount of food without getting nauseous. If I eat a serving of meat, or eggs, or cheese, I can feel relatively full. I can't imagine eating enough kale or something like that and becoming full. You could say "just eat more bread" or something, but that's a generally nutritiously trash food we eat too much of already, health wise.
ex vegan and ex vegetarian here (yes i hate myself for it lol) - i think one underrated part of the argument for cutting down on animal products is the impact the industry has on humans. you kind of touched on it with the chicken sexer, but these jobs have horrible mental and physical impacts on us just from the industry. my hometown is a meat packer factory town, and the stories ive heard from the plant are horrifying. physically, its grueling and ruins your quality of life. some workers even got a rare autoimmune disease where they got serious nerve damage- some were even paralyzed. and mentally, it’s horrible too. it isnt good for you to make your entire life focused around killing. workers are abusive, emotionally damaged. i recommend reading slaughterhouse by gail eisinitz, where she goes into the lives of many meatpacker workers around the US. phenominal book. but yeah. that’s all i have.
i lied, i thought of more. one thing about the alternatives- if there is a better demand for better things, then they will be made. you cant really just wait around for things to get better, because millions are dying because of it. i say this as a current meat eater, too.
@@emocarnie "one thing about the alternatives- if there is a better demand for better things, then they will be made" - only problem is the demand will not be there. Look at Beyond and Impossible, those are "so close" say within 10% of real meat, and yet people will rather continue to kill for that 10%. Do you think it will be any different for 99%? It won't. They are already banning lab meat before it gets started.
Have you tried Vitasoy Soy Drink? We have this in New Zealand and I much prefer it to milk. I think you can get it at Costco in England. If you get it, try and get the low sugar one.
You should have eaten a burger throughout as a prop.
As in, no one would have known whether it was vegan or not?
Never been so alligned with someone’s thinking on this before. I do think though that there is a value and honor in the intention. The worst part about meat eating is doing it just because it’s the default, without considering what you believe about it.
have you tried the "barista" version of oat milk? theyre actually pretty decent with tea i think. theyre a bit creamier than the regular oat milk. i had a cup of tea with cows milk recently for the first time in maybe 4 years and it tasted pure manky, like it was sour or something but it wasnt out of date or anything
I think it's a good video from an interesting perspective. That of the inner conflict phase. It could be more compelling than coming from someone who's made the choice and went vegan.
There’s nothing natural about hunting. Going out with a riffle and all sorts of equipment is not natural. Natural would mean going out there with your teeth and nails and having to strangle a deer or stone to death some smaller animal.
The thing about vegetarians is that it doesn’t really reduce any suffering. If they just eat more cheese and eggs instead of meat it doesn’t serve any cause. And some argue that dairy and eggs cause more suffering than the meat industry, because the animals get exploited for longer periods of time before being eventually slaughtered anyway. I guess being a vegetarian or a flexitarian that only occasionally eats animal products does help. But let’s face it, few people have that discipline and it wouldn't matter anyway to the animals who die needlessly.
Also, dairy was the hardest to give up for me too, it’s an addiction to casein.
I would argue that vegetarianism does indeed reduce suffering, at least in comparison to meat eating outright. I feel that you can still give, say, a cow or chicken a good life while periodically taking their produce with little (if any) bad effects, but you cant really kill an animal for its meat in any way that could be considered moral, you know?
@@bapabs Dairy and eggs involve killing too. The male chicks usually get thrown alive in a grinder as soon as they hatch. In the dairy industry the male calves are sent to slaughter and become “veal”. There is no way around it that would make economical sense.
Let’s have a look at the “happy lives” of the female animals that get exploited. The chickens are debeaked without any anesthetic, they live in cages or overcrowded sheds and never see the outdoors in their entire lives.
The egg laying chickens have been bread selectively to produce a breed that makes an unnaturally high numbers of eggs, leading to health issues like brittle bones, uterine prolapse, and exhaustion. It’s the equivalent of a woman having a period every day of her adult life.
Once their egg production declines (usually after 1-2 years), they are considered "spent" and are slaughtered. The natural life span of a chicken is 5 to 10 years, depending on the breed and living conditions. So they don’t get even close to living half their lives.
Let’s have a look at the “happy lives” of dairy cows too. So, just like any mammal, they make milk only after they give birth and only enough to feed that baby. That means that in order to exploit that mink, they get forcibly impregnated. This is often done through artificial insemination, which is stressful and invasive.
Then the mother and baby get separated shortly after birth. The cows grieve this loss and they bellow for weeks. The process is repeated over and over again, until they break down and they don’t make enough milk to be economically viable. And what happens then, do they get to retire on green pastures? Of course not, they go to the slaughter house. Again, they are killed way before they reach the equivalent of middle age.
@@bapabs Dairy and eggs involve killing too. The male chicks usually get thrown alive in a grinder as soon as they hatch. In the dairy industry the male calves are sent to slaughter and become “veal”. There is no way around it that would make economical sense.
Let’s have a look at the “happy lives” of the female animals that get exploited. The chickens are debeaked without any anesthetic, they live in cages or overcrowded sheds and never see the outdoors in their entire lives.
The egg laying chickens have been bread selectively to produce a breed that makes an unnaturally high numbers of eggs, leading to health issues like brittle bones, uterine prolapse, and exhaustion. It’s the equivalent of a woman having a period every day of her adult life.
Once their egg production declines (usually after 1-2 years), they are considered "spent" and are slaughtered. The natural life span of a chicken is 5 to 10 years, depending on the breed and living conditions. So they don’t get even close to living half their lives.
Let’s have a look at the “happy lives” of dairy cows too. So, just like any mammal, they make milk only after they give birth and only enough to feed that baby. That means that in order to exploit that milk, they get impregnated, often through artificial insemination, which is stressful and invasive.
Then the mother and baby get separated shortly after birth. The cows grieve this loss and they bellow for weeks. The process is repeated over and over again, until they break down and they don’t make enough milk to be economically viable. And what happens then, do they get to retire on green pastures? Of course not, they go to the slaughter house. Again, they are killed way before they reach the equivalent of middle age.
@@bapabs Dairy and eggs involve killing too. The male chicks usually get thrown alive in a grinder as soon as they hatch. In the dairy industry the male calves are sent to slaughter and become “veal”. There is no way around it that would make economical sense.
Let’s have a look at the “happy lives” of the female animals that get exploited. The chickens are debeaked without any anesthetic, they live in cages or overcrowded sheds and never see the outdoors in their entire lives.
The egg laying chickens have been bread selectively to produce a breed that makes an unnaturally high numbers of eggs, leading to health issues like brittle bones, uterine prolapse, and exhaustion. It’s the equivalent of a woman having a period every day of her adult life.
Once their egg production declines (usually after 1-2 years), they are considered "spent" and are slaughtered. The natural life span of a chicken is 5 to 10 years, depending on the breed and living conditions. So they don’t get even close to living half their lives.
Let’s have a look at the “happy lives” of dairy cows too. So, just like any mammal, they make milk only after they give birth and only enough to feed that baby. That means that in order to exploit that mink, they get artificial insemination, which is stressful and invasive.
Then the mother and baby get separated shortly after birth. The cows grieve this loss and they bellow for weeks. The process is repeated over and over again, until they break down and they don’t make enough milk to be economically viable. And what happens then, do they get to retire on green pastures? Of course not, they go to the slaughter house. Again, they are killed way before they reach the equivalent of middle age.
@@bapabs My reply keeps getting deleted automatically. What I was trying to say is dairy and eggs involve killing too. The male chicks usually get thrown alive in a grinder as soon as they hatch. In the dairy industry the male calves are sent to slaughter and become “veal”. There is no way around it that would make economical sense.
If you want to know about the "happy lives" of the females that get exploited, you can ask chatgpt "what happens to egg laying chickens and dairy cows in the animal agriculture industry?" If I write it here it just gets censored.
This was another interesting, thoughtful ramble i enjoyed! Ive already forgotten all but the bare basic messages of your video straight after watching (my memory sucks ass 💀😭) but here's my bit of ramble!
I think i kinda agree with the vegans on a moral pov, I care about the animals and environment. That job you described seeing about the chicken sexer sounded GRIM AS HECK- like wtf?? I didn't know that was a job but thats another disgusting part of the animal food product industry. It made me laugh but like a bittersweet one, because thats a real job. Animal exploitation and the way they tend to be treated- in places nothing short of absolute crap, should not exist for our pleasure.
I used to think "Well if people change the way we get our animal products (specifically meat) by making them more ethical, then animal cruelty in the industry would be stopped and we/I wouldn't need to theoretically go vegan for moral reasons". And i still understand that n' go 'mm yeah that makes sense' in a way, but that change in animal treatment doesn't seem to be happening on a mass scale anytime soon. It should. I don't like people who think its ok to mistreat animals for not being human/having human like qualities- the things that make us different from any other animal. That's a heartless way of thinking.
Back to point, it sucks to admit but not enough people who directly have the ability to induct these industrial changes care. So i think as someone who's been raised with meat as a normal part of diet, i am interested in veganism and would like to do it when I'm independent. I say that cause im not living on my own and therefore with my kinda parent, can't switch to veganism as soon as I would like.
I suppose it would be interesting to explore meat/dairy alternatives. I enjoy animal product foods but am theoretically willing to give them up, though i know it may not be easy cause im so used to eating them. But i love food in general, so im probably gonna find foods that taste just as great that are vegan.
Just thought of cake while writing this- i love cake. I clearly need to do more research on vegan food alternatives cause id miss cake and i don't actively know about any vegan cake. Hoping there is XDD
Yeah so thats essentially my thoughts on veganism! I would like to try it when I'm more independent, for moral reasons. Not enough people have genuine sympathy and care about the bad sides of the animal product industry which is an issue. How we we solve that and make people genuinely care? I don't know, as plain as it feels to say. Hope anybody who took the time to read this (and anybody who didn't) has a great day and sleep. (人*´∀｀)｡*ﾟ+
As a Vegan, let me just say that a world with more concious omnivores like yourself would be a much better world than the world we're in now. I commend you
Honestly you don't need to have your dietary restrictions be so binary. Your descriptions of being kind of in the middle (meat sometimes, dairy more often) can be good enough if that's what you want. Participating less, if that's your goal, is still worthwhile even if you don't eliminate it entirely.
A better choice is a better choice, even if it does not fit in a nice little descriptive box.
Also there tend to be 3 reasons for veganism: animal cruelty, health reasons, and climate reasons. Most of them are kind, never met a dikhead vegan. I'm actually married to one.
In the spirit of this video, this comment is a little rambley without much of a point. Sending you good vibes and thanks for the video!
I worked at a meat processing place in UK few years back and after that experience I went vegetarian :D
I'm not vegan or vegetarian, but I generally avoid meat. Anytime I cook something for myself it very rarely involves meat. I live in the USA's Midwest region and it is incredibly difficult for me to go get food with family or friends and there be vegan options. Generally I think you should just try and reduce your consumption from unethical sources. idk if the logic really works, but the eggs I get from my neighbor's chicken feel a lot more ethical than the one's from the store.
Those eggs are still pretty bad - for every hen there, a male chick was killed, statistically speaking. Also, when the hen is "spent" it's likely killed as evidence of the flock not continuing to grow unchecked.
I also live in the Midwest and the number of places without a vegan option is surprisingly small, especially outside of fast food. By suggesting restaurants with vegan options and ordering the vegan options it also helps make vegan options more widely available.
you're an interesting person, keep up the videos!
I agree with you and I’m not a vegan I eat quite a bit of meat but I would never disrespect a vegetarian or a vegan and I just subscribed
For somebody like you or I, it's honestly not hard to avoid eating meat. We don't have control of participation in most of the horrors of modern society, but doesn't it make sense to make the good choices we know we can?
Good show !
i have been vegan for 6 months and was vegetarian for 3 years before that. 7 months ago I said I could never go vegan because of yogurt because there is no good alternative but after watching a video about dairy and learning that cows get raped their whole life in order for me to have it, that felt like such a stupid reason and I went vegan instantly. I imagined if I were one of those cows, getting taken away from my mother so that she had to be forcibly impregnated and attached to a machine so that some randos could bottle up her milk and sell it for money, and then kill her when she wasn't profitable anymore, and then when I grow up I would be sentenced to the same life. Whether you are an animal or a person, nobody deserves that.
I realized that by buying and consuming animal products, I am reinforcing the belief that this kind of treatment of someone is justified if it means I get to eat something that tastes good, and that I don't have to put in effort to change. I realized how selfish that was, and it is such a simple act to find something else to eat, and it would be a little difficult, but something being "too hard" is not a good enough reason for me to not do the right thing. I encourage you to do some research about the foods you don't want to give up such as cheese and milk. See how they are made, and ask yourself if you believe this process is justified if it means you get to eat/drink something that tastes good. Take time to think about it. Whatever you decide, you have the power to start aligning your actions with your values whenever you want.
I also disagree that someone should avoid videos of meat production while eating meat. We should know what we are eating. If seeing how meat is made makes you lose your appetite then that is good information - maybe we should not be eating it.
I do get annoyed by people that eat meat because most of them could easily stop if they put a little effort in. I get annoyed at my past self for doing the same thing too. Mostly sad because it feels so grim seeing body parts everywhere, and people don't even think about the fact that someone died. It hurts a lot seeing people mindlessly eating someone I care about, and that I used to partake in this too. But I remind myself that it's not about me, it's about the animals, and it doesn't matter whether I'm annoyed or not because they are still dying at a rapid rate, and I only have control over my own actions. I hope I don't sound too critical, I just wanted to offer my thoughts as you so kindly offered yours. I really enjoyed watching this, it's good to hear perspectives outside of my own, and I hope to hear an update in the future
I've been vegeterian my whole life but am currently looking to try eating meat because of low energy levels and all that, would be open to suggestions for what to try first.
Oysters 🦪
There are sites with vegan nutritionists that will help you for free.
Sounds like you've got it pretty well figured out, just stand up for your ethics. The #1 regret of all vegans is not going vegan sooner.
Going vegan is like planting trees - the best time to do it is 20 years ago, the second best time is today!
First - and from a vegetarian!
i went vegan 2 years ago, i know that it is hard and scary to begin with but i don't regret a single thing
me and my partner are trying to go vegetarian atm but its so hard we have like 3 good meals we know of like pasta w/ spinach and sauce, califlower cheese and pitta bread with tomato puree and mozzarella
i started not eating meat and drinking milk like 8 years ago and my family never paid any attention apart from the feeling i was being mocked behind closed doors and in the last few years they've all actively tried and failed... its a night mare and i think its because it would take a good 20-25 easy to make cheap meals would help anyone start off initially and then come to terms with what like 10-15 they like to stick with or something like that
i stopped drinking milk because i heard it was bad for your bones, i stopped drinking tea and coffee because i learnt about fluoride, i stopped using sugar because i heard it was 8 times more addictive than cocaine, i started drinking bottled water because of the fluoride calcifying the pineal gland. i ate more raw fruit and veg but only lasted for so long.
Literally think of any dish you like (except just meat itself) - you'll find a simple recipe for a meat-free alternative to that.
Eat all the same stuff you did before just sub in the vegan option. Pizza, tacos, burgers, sausages, etc. Name it, we'll help. Also, there are sites that give you free meal plans and nutritional advice.
woah we're the same age
I'm vegan and it feels good to know I'm not contributing to the murdering of animals in factory farms. The dairy industry also contributes to this. I'd really recommend going vegan if you believe it's right. Don't continue doing something you know isn't right. This goes for anyone and everything.
I think vegetarians are hypocrites because they don't like animal suffering but still contribute to it, but I also think that being vegetarian is better than not being vegetarian or vegan. A reduction is still good but shouldn't be the end goal.
Vegetarian is so cringe, just stand up for your principles already! (Not directed at you, emmad, obviously.)
This video pleases me. I am someone who eats very little meat and will likely one day go vegetarian however I am allergic to nuts which sucks because it’s harder to get that protein in
I also love cheese! Old enough to miss those innocent days when a Carnie was just a carnival worker with a checkered past.
Mate I agree with a lot but imo you misrepresented the "natural" argument. From my point of view this argument is meant to explain the fact that our gastrointestinal system is biologically meant to consume a mixture of food which also includes protein rich foods like meat. Of course not in the amounts that most people in the "west" consume meat like a 100kg/year per person or something but our bodys EVOLVED (not made, (a non believer aswell)) to metabolise meat.
i've been pondering an interesting thing lately, which is the parallels between 'evolution' and 'habit'. it's sort of affected how i use evolution/'nature'/'human nature' as a justification for necessity, as thinking of the things we/anything evolved to tend toward as simply manifestations of habit on a massive scale has helped with thinking "aw that's just how it is, i can't change it so it's a waste of energy to try", and starts me asking "why do i consider this unchangeable and how is it already changing on its own".
so, like, since americans eat HELLA meat, they'll likely evolve more carnivorous physical traits, but evolution only really becomes physically apparent when we have enough space from it temporally to compare the differences. i think the emotional habit comes first, but we write that off because we make such a distinction between body and mind.
i am gonna make a huge assumption here, HUGE, but i think it's interesting how prone to unneccesary violence americans seem to be on large scales, what with chiming in with war whenever an opportunity presents itself. i'm drawing an interesting parallel here between eating wayyyy too much meat(and being separated from the killing of the meat before the meal) and being wayyy too comfortable operating in the predator/prey framework/being openly abusive or violent, which i worry then bleeds over into how people interact socially and intrapersonally.
not preaching a vegan "kumbaya" world, but if we're already at the top of the food chain, arguments like "we've always done it this way" or "we evolved to, so it must be necessary" seem more like manifestations of the predator/prey framework trying to reassert itself for fear of losing its 'predator' status (becoming prey and therefore dying, the brain panics so doesn't wanna change), even though there's no longer a bigger, badder predator to topple, so we just project the bigger bad onto someone else who didn't deserve it. same concept as putting someone on a pedestal, just with fear.
which i think also shows itself in the manifestation of 'putting yourself in the place of the animal' as being one of the very first steps toward holding more vegan morals, a sort of rejection of the power of being the predator even though you're still at the top of the food chain, and hopefully showing predators that empathizing with one's prey isn't necessarily weakness.
i might argue that humans ended up evolving to identify more with either predators or prey and then work to preserve that dynamic no matter what, and now that shapes their moral compasses and opinions, rather than in the past where it shaped whether they lived or died so changing it wasn't an option, whereas now it's imperative. i think that's also the crucial distinction that puts so much distance between us and the physical, gritty reality of watching/causing it to happen.
the morals of meat get fucky when you've both been the wolf savoring its meal and the rabbit caught in the brambles being eaten alive lol. i think its addicting for either party... enjoying the meat can be just as addictive as feeling sad about being the meat, but i think considering both perspectives is an important part of separating animal instinct from why we hold our morals or make choices and then moving away from holding morals or making choices that stem solely from instinct
i've also liked the concept that every time you put something into your body, you are evolving, because you are not the same person you were before lunch - you've evolved 3 more deviled egg tendencies and 7 more meat tendencies because you ate more meat at lunch. i also think this is why with substances, the more you take over time, the easier it is to get addicted, and also why the 'gateway drug' argument occured, as the first use of a cigarette 'primes' the habit to occur again.
just some thoughts, sorry for the rant haha! hope you have a nice day :)
@@sunblooom The parralell you drew between eating too much meat and being too comfortable operating in a predator/prey framework is an excellent point and one that rings true in my experience. Very insightful!
@ aww ty!! 'rings true in my experience' that is a very high compliment actually, thank you. reflecting/sharing the truth of our experiences is like a huge goal for me so it's rlly cool to know that that's lowkey even possible for me to do xD
this shits fascinating to me lol, another thing about that i thought was interesting on the other side as just a fun thought - does eating more plants n stuff make us more submissive/prone to noticing the food affecting our tendencies?
and, if genetic modification is a core tenet of the industrialization of all foods, the difference between how we took control of the genetic strains to better sell them - chickens who are bred to be eaten and apples that are spliced to be sweeter/bigger/preserved longer are both different means of fucking with evolution, but thinking about how they affect us after consuming them consistently is really interesting given that there aren't really non-genetically modified apples readily available anymore, nor ethically sourced meat, and now we don't really have the option to consume fully "non industrialized" food. so, on some level, we literally have no choice but to consume industrialization. it's much harder to break a habit when you have nothing to replace it with. that's like the whole thing of addiction too lol, you can't just cold turkey you need to want to draw more than drink
also that we bred fruits and stuff to live/preserve longer, but we bred animals to live shorter, and how that likely can also reflect itself in OUR lifespans, and even attention spans, oooooh fuck, i just realized the meat/iphone combo is just the final punch in the gut for the whole "mass manipulation" concept. give nutrients that shorten attention span and are delicious to eat while watching short form shit, and give means to consume short form content to sate the food-induced craving to shorten the attention span. i don't even think it's an intentional conspiracy lol i think it's just a really, really, really bad habit
i've found this true in my own eating habits; i'm always much more sparse with my screentime when i'm in a plants/fruits-only-binge, cuz they're just so yummy - that's when i read and water my plants and brew coffee, but when i eat meat i find myself drawn to watch something while i eat, whereas when i'm eating an apple i'm like FUCK MY TEETH ARE COLD I DON'T BITE INTO SHIT EVER ohhhh that's yummy, very crispy a little bruised... and i don't have time to want to be distracted because i'm so distracted with the visceral firsthand experience. but with meat it's like walking up to the trough "time for my daily feeding!"
aww. that's sad.. i also think a reason vegans might come off preachy is that they HAVE found that sort of joy of immediate experience by changing their eating habits, and it's SO fuckin nice and really healthy actually, but trying to share how much better it makes them feel only comes off as how much better they feel by being morally superior or whatever lol
i'm sorry for the second wall of text ;-; i got attention and needed more apparently lmao. you gave me a reason to theorize-rant and i let it run way too far down the rabbit hole haha. thanks for the excuse to think tho!! i need to get a fuckin journal. fuck haha
(i'm interested on ur thoughts on this)
@@sunblooom “Violence begins with the fork.” ― Mahatma Gandhi
@ hahhaahahaaa wonderful quote i love that!! thank you for sharing
was just talking with my brother about how using forks feels very brutalist; we don't hold it as we would hold a pen, loosely and articulately; we hold it like a scalpel or spear, impale our food, and eat it off the knife. stab, bite, stab, bite.
chopsticks are a cool alternative for me at least; a learning curve, very articulated, and requires balance (especially for things like rice). grab, carefully lift, place in mouth, grab, carefully lift, place in mouth. somehow it feels more respectful to the food.
i don't know why, but showing respect and gratefulness for my meals is very important to be. if i have to eat meat, i'm going to give it as much respect as i can as i eat.
i also like that it forces you to eat slower, and actually engage with the process of eating as an activity/skill to be enjoyed and improved upon rather than a necessity for energy
ghandi always spat fire bars. we spent ages thinking it was metaphorical when often metaphors are the most literal description possible xD
I studied biology in university and a lot of biologists are vegan. I was aware of all the reasons why someone would be vegan and I agreed with the reasons, had a bit of peer pressure to become one too, yet I was not. Once I graduated and got to a more peaceful and calm period of my life, I went vegan without really even planning it or trying, it just happened. Turns out I just lacked energy and mental space to make a such change, but really it has only made my life easier if anything.
Agreed, one of the biggest blockers is that people can't even imagine going vegan. (Or allow themselves to imagine it.) It was the case for me. Actually going vegan is pretty easy and fun too.
Hunting and fishing for our own food is a alot better straight from nature when you think about it because the animals live there most natural life from life to death, factory farming isnt the way
I personally think that a lot of some of the backlash is that people (omnivores, the majority of us), are generally faced with principles we agree with in veganism - reducing suffering, making less greenhouse waste, etc., but are then faced with some losses because of it - one, the choice of their enjoyment of the diet, which is to say enjoying things like steak, bacon, pepperoni, etc., and two, the scarcity sacrifice of their resources. This is I think much less true today, but a healthy vegan diet has traditionally been presented as expensive - lots of organic things, specialty products, etc., and so in ways, omnivores are asked to make either moral sacrifices, in going against their overall moral hierarchy by confronting the issue and taking a stance on it, and if they still choose to eat meat, know that they are going against that moral, or do the opposite, which is to keep their morals but sacrifice a good measure of convenience, perhaps more money, and a good bit of time to do due diligence on fulfilling the diet requirements and if necessary, paying more for the resulting products than they would otherwise need to with a traditionally omnivorous diet. I'd be curious to see any kind of study or reporting on whether or not this perceived price difference as part of the scarcity sacrifice is mostly true, mostly false, and perhaps in some way backed by large industrial meat companies, or somewhere in the middle. For reference, Tyson Foods has a market cap of $20 billion USD. I'm sure preventing swaps away from consuming meat is on their radar, even if they aren't doing anything about it, and they're just one of the players - there's got to be an interest in keeping it as a 'fad,' and not letting it become a large 'trend,' etc.
oh wow that's definitely a huge part of it, letting go of the taste of graziano sausage and omelettes is a huge reason why committing to veganism is likely not going to be what i choose for a while and it sucks sometimes haha. i think the love of immediate experience is true of both meat eaters and fruit nerds regardless of morals, where meat eaters love a damn good steak for dinner and fruit nerds love a damn good apple in the morning. we all just wanna love living a little hehe
there's also a huge accessibility part of it too i think; you can't really drive through somewhere to grab a salad necessarily. subway/jjhs exists yes and i love them but damn, you can grab mcdonalds on your work break and it's cheap as fuck (or just work there and eat for free), whereas the whole 'millennial avocado toast is why they can't afford a house' thing really reinforced the 'cheaper is better' on food, which sucks because in some cases it has a really huge point - even if the only reason it has a point is because things have gotten so bad. much like it's easier to reach into my pocket and hit my nic vape than it is to stop, think, listen to what my body is actually asking for, and then do that.
there are many reasons why this is easier said than done, disability/neurodivergencies aside, but i'm really focusing on how our goal has been set to try to silence what our body is telling us, rather than listen and then give our body what it's asking for, which informs what we choose to consume. money informing our consumption seems to be a core part of how we interpret 'survival' these days, or even the world itself - "if what i'm consuming isn't saving/making me money, it's not productive to be consuming."
i'm STILL doing EXACTLY this, i've never not done this i think, except i'm having to sort of come at it from a really wide angle lens... "if i'm not eating good food i won't do good work so i should "selfishly"(not, that's internalized) INVEST in good food for my body so i can get my WORK done." work is always the primary motivator, i can't just 'do something for myself' apparently, though i can work at it haha.
i can't really shake this ideology, or the need for it due to simply living in this society, so i do my best to modify it because self care is a necessity for me, and give myself more opportunities to eat good food, because i'd rather eat good food and be miserable about my choices not being my own than do the same thing while eating bad food or even nothing, as i have for a long time. it's almost like i'm using capitalism to trick myself into loving myself xD deeeefinitely not what eeeeveryone is doing too. haha.
it really rears it's ugly head when people end up making sacrifices to their bodies to save money, which i definitely think we all do in some/every way and it's super easy to do at mealtime, thereby giving us an excuse to justify spending said saved money on any vice we might choose (my jar tips from that day were my bud money. NOT a great investment when cobb salads and rent exist.). which also fucks the body lol, but ironically i don't think we'd have much of a void in our lives to abuse substances/SH/etc if we reinvested from the vice into our diets haha. this is just a theory i have yet to put into practice but it seems to be true based on how apples taste
it's fucking annoying but the people who say to exercise and change your diet when you're depressed are lowkey deadass. it's not the cure by any stretch of the word, nor does it come close to helping with pulling you out of the decades long ruts or living in an existential horror novel for fucking real, but you can't stay consistently undepressed without them i believe. i've been working on my diet along with therapy and other things and i feel great, but i truly think i won't feel true happiness until i start running again consistently, even for a short time. getting myself to run again has been my absolute biggest hurdle and i've done it once or twice in the last 2-ish years. that's my big goal right now, go enjoy running again. it's hard to be depressed biting into an apple or running on nature trails haha, but it's really easy to hate myself when i have to throw away the bones after eating KFC! :D
ooh and also when your only experience of the world is your job/friends/favorite media, and you're not making the attempt to LITERALLY go run through nature to remind yourself that it's still fuckin there, your scope of what the world is is totally changed, which also easily enables denial of and reinforcement of the inevitability of climate change. 'touch grass' is more than just an internet burn lmao it hurtssss
Not me getting this video when im about to purchase a salmon fillet after 10+ years of being a vegetarian lol damn you algorithm 😆
It won't hurt to change your mind, maybe it's your conscience speaking ;)
Enjoy the fish more nutritious than anything vegan
Second - I love this dudes videos >:)
i eat only meat cos i am an animal
Not harming animals is a real big moral dilemma, animals are abused by humans on a massive scale, and it's not just for food, it's impossible not to be complicit in some way
So what do we do, my way is to not overthink it but also not dismiss it.
We do whatever we can, and never shy away from being more informed. If we realize we have the option to do less harm, then we should.
@@garden.of.thistles But you can say that also with just about anything…right? Like say, living a more virtuous life in general? You’re telling me that being a vegan (i.e., “you shouldn’t eat meat bc all animal’s lives deserves and are of equal in values & worth to human beings”) is actually as important (or maybe more important to u idk) as all the other virtues? There’s just no way you can even begin to rationally categorize these levels of ideas into a long lasting theory; I mean you’re essentially telling me that eating chicken wings & steaks are of equal in moral responsibility to, say, abandoning my kids, it would makes no sense.
@@meaningofreason "I mean you’re essentially telling me that eating chicken wings & steaks are of equal in moral responsibility to, say, abandoning my kids, it would makes no sense". no they didnt, they said "If we realize we have the option to do less harm, then we should.", which essentially means "try your best to not do bad things". you then purposefully interpreted this poorly and threw out a bunch of random strawman arguments.
youre obviously young, probably mid-early teens, just starting to figure out who you are. its tough. for me theyll probably end up being some of the toughest of my life. i wont tell you go "go vegan", youre not there yet - though, do try to think about the victims of your actions. the animals you eat are all as capable of feeling hurt as you are. put yourself in their shoes. before you respond, google "watch dominin", click the first link, and tell me how long you lasted
First step is to do the thing you know will make a difference. Eat vegan, buy vegan unless you don't know it's not; seek information and get educated about what you're paying form. That's already a great start. Appealing to fatality is never going to help.
@@meaningofreason Umm yes, if you know better, do better. If you learned that your favorite chocolate bar was harvested by slave workers, you'd hopefully stop buying it, and find an alternative. If you realize that an animals life is worth more then 15min of taste, then don't kill them. You don't need to overthink it. You can care about humans, and animals, and other issues all at the same time.
Being vegan is goated
I’d love to go vegetarian / vegan for a while but having a bean allergy makes that nearly impossible :/
@@teak.y luckily there are 50,000 edible plants in the market, so you can absolutely substitute if you can’t eat certain plants
@@teak.y luckily there are 50,000 edible plants in the market, so you can absolutely substitute if you can’t eat certain plants
@@uwinsomeulearnsomeSome people have so many allergies and auto immune disorders that they can’t eat any vegetable matter what so ever because they’d be so sick their life wouldn’t be worth living.
My solution was this after 7 months of Experience and Testing and its very lengthy:
1 1/2 tbsp of Rice (white and/or brown)
1 tbsp of Beans (Take your pick, as I use pinto beans)
1/4 cup of Frozen Mixed Vegetables (I use corn, peas, carrots, lima beans, and green beans)
1/2 tbs of Nuts (Take your pick, as I use peanuts)
1 tbsp of already cooked Meat (Chicken, Beef, or Pork)
1 Round Pickle Slice
1 tsp of Olive Oil (some have flavored oil, take your pick as I use Garlic, Basil, or Tuscan Herb)
1/8 tsp of Seasoning (Use your favorite, as I use Stake Seasoning)
1 small slice of Potato roughly 2 inches in diameter, and about 1/2 inch thick.
1 tbsp of Sauce (Use your favorite sauce, as I use General Tso or Low Sodium Teriyaki)
1/2 tbsp of Gravy Mix (Used as a thickener, as I use either Beef or a Country Fried Gravy)
1 tsp of Concentrated Lemon Juice
1 cup of Water
Desert: Some Mixed Fruit (Take your pick, as I use Pineapple, Strawberries, Grapes, and Peaches).
This makes 1 meal. I eat this every 2 hours and 20 minutes for about 6 meals total for the day. I cook the Rice, Beans, Peanuts, Mixed Vegetables, Seasoning, and Water every 2 hours to keep the Eating Schedule consistent and accurate and then add the rest of the ingredients. Set a timer if you have to, as I do.
I combine the Rice, Beans, Peanuts, Mixed Vegetables, Seasoning, and Water into a Pressure Cooker (I use an InstantPot) for 18 minutes on high. Let cool for 15 minutes, put the ingredients into a small bowl and then add the rest of the ingredients in. Stir well, and you will have about a Cup (Measurement) of food. I weigh 120 roughly so you will have to scale it to your weight if you want to try it. It's very cheap if you can buy the Rice and Beans in Bulk, as well as other ingredients if you can.
I can't give an exact scale because all packaging is different as well as different people with different weight, needs, allergies and more, but if you get the Rice and Beans in Bulk, and get the other ingredients, I'm sure you can find a shopping/food pattern that works for you. It's a lot of Personal Testing, but it will be worth it in the long run. Much Cheaper, Healthier, and Sustainable, to me anyways.
If you give it a try, I'm sure you will enjoy the benefits. My Rant is done. Good Luck!
okay fuck this is interesting.
setting aside how the FUCK you have an eating schedule (it's just my adhd lmao i'll get used to it), i'm curious about some things -
i'm curious as to whether this strategy takes into account different nutrition groups and the necessary amount of intake for ideal health. i find that as my food cravings cycle im looking for different forms of nutrition at different times, like i'll eat apples and bananas for a couple days and then i can eat nothing but dark chocolate and almonds for a few days. my craving for nutrition shifts based on what im deficient in i think.
i don't know shit about the food pyramid (which i always thought was a stupid diagram) so i have a very, VERY loose grasp on what nutrition actually is, so something like this that breaks down nutritional needs into literal, physical measurements that can be compared to the measurements of the other nutritional groups, and then seen visually in the ratio of foods at each meal, helps a great deal with determining where my nutritional deficits are and keeping them balanced; so this would be a great tool for that haha
---------
as for the tablespoon of already cooked meat, is that simply because there's no 1:1 nutritional replacement for meat, and that's the best/minimum amount necessary for getting nutrition from the meat while avoiding meat being the primary food that's being "enjoyed"? or is that a recipe thing because 13-15 mins in the pressure cooker isn't enough to cook the meat all the way through lol
also a weird thought about the 'morals' of precooked vs uncooked - = im gonna use the phrase "spiritual bypassing" here even though this is not how it's supposed to be used, but if the goal is to revoke support for the meat industry, buying precooked would only shift the immediate moral 'guilt'(floabt) to whoever bought the uncooked meat from grinders to then cook and sell. like, it's adding another layer of moral padding by filtering it through someone else... a sort of "spiritual bypassing" so the weight of the guilt is dispersed between each of the people whose hands it passes through. i don't bring this up to encourage "taking responsibility" by taking the emotional L and buying uncooked or whatever just to make urself feel bad lol, but rather i'm contemplating about unintentionally supporting the cycle by way of going against it.
idk just some thoughts haha. thank you!!
I for one am an amoral vegan/vegetarian (I sometimes will eat an egg or yogurt). Sure, I care about animal treatment but that isn't my main motivation. Since I was a very young child I just found the idea of eating animal flesh disgusting. Growing up in a "carni" household I was conditioned to eat meat but as an adult in full control of my diet I stopped eating it. If you do choose to eat meat try to eat organic meat so you aren't consuming the antibiotics and GMO grains laced with pesticides and herbicides that the factory farmed animals are plumped up with. Also you won't be contributing to the environmental damage caused by factory farming. Love your ramblings Jonny!
Your argument for cod liver oil is kinda where I stand for still eating meat -
I was vegetarian for 3 years as a teenager at my utmost empathetic, however now with a physical job/active need, I simply need the protein and haven't gotten proficient enough at cooking/haven't got enough money to find my protein from plant alternatives. Impossible burgers and stuff are pretty rad though I look forward to the future of ending suffering.
P.S. I am volunteering on a livestock farm and feel bad for these animals almost daily; but I will say organic farms and to a lesser extent free range farms are a step in the right moral direction.
im not vegan or vegitarian, but i was eating lots of quorn and other meat substitutes for a few years but i havnt been able to eat a lot of it lately because its starting to taste a bit weird. im curious if anyone else experienced this. like i would buy a new quorn thing anytime i would see it, and it would taste nice, but after getting it maybe the 4th or 5th time the taste just gets too much and then i cant stomach it any more. with meats like chicken or whatever i could eat it every day for weeks and that would never happen. i wonder if its because the meat substitutes are kind of bland so they have to put in a lot of flavouring to mask that
As someone eating plant-based, you should have a more diversified diet and not try to stick to only a few foods.
Human teeth would suggest we evolved to be omnivores. Incisors, canines, molars. We have a little of everything. Ruminants we are not. By evolution, at least.
Can you devour a raw carcass with just your teeth and nails? Is that what you do for lunch every day? The strength in the human jaw is way below any real omnivore.
I like listening to vegan bands like Earth Crisis but that's as far as me caring about the ideology goes. Shout-out to Earth Crisis they go hard
They'd prefer if you paid attention to what they had to say.
I did. They failed to persuade me.
I kinda wish I could be vegetarian because of moral reasons but I truely hate all non meat sorces of protein to the point that I refuse entirely. I had a problem where I wasn't eating enough protein and my hair was falling out and was in a constant state of cold flush so I have to eat meat to be healthy :(
Do you like whey protein? If so, would you consume protein from animal free dairy (ie. Bored Cow milk and MyProtein’s Whey Forward)?
@willbyrob6582 I tried whey powder a few years ago in milkshakes and stuff but never committed to it. I should probably try again because it is a good idea
And now you're throwing some Wes Anderson type of framing at us, legend! I was a vegetarian for 3 months after watching "Earthlings", but then it realised that we don't have enough foods containing those substances that are in meat, so had to give up.
You can get all the nutrients needed on a plant-based diet. There are sites with free nutritionist guides.
Eat less meat, more vegetables. Prob solved😎
Eat no meat, egg or dairy, prob solved 😎
@discursion Get rid off Tv, the Internet, radio, stop having sex and things will get to be about fine😎
@ That's a slippery slope fallacy that means nothing. We're talking about not harming sentient animals unnecessarily. Sure, there's other things you could do for other causes, like limiting the damage to the environment. But you can do those things as well or recognize that you ought to do those things. There is no necessity whatsoever to eat animal products given the alternatives, and that is something to acknowledge and aim towards as a moral species, since those actions align with the values we claim to embody.
@@discursion well i appreciate for the effort, there is always more things to do if you like an idea.
@ 🙄
Reducing meat intake is abaolutely good enough and really quite important in general. If not for morals, then at least for the environmental impact. And if you still want to eat meat in a way that feels morally acceptable, look into ethically sourced animal products. It takes a lot of research and is often much more expensive, but you can have the nice things every once in a while as a treat and not have to really feel too awful about it. Sure an animal died for it, but it was an animal that lived a good life and was slaughtered at an appropriate time, ideally all while supporting a local family that likely exists purely off their ranching.
I personally don't feel like anyone *has* to do any of these things, but if you're having qualms about meat eating and don't really like the idea of going totally vegan, then I feel that these are good first steps
Buddha was fasting, then he realized it sucks. Then he passed away from eating tainted meat, karma.
1. "Buddha was vegan, then he realized it sucks."
The Buddha was not vegan or vegetarian in the modern sense. During his time, monks and nuns in the Theravāda tradition were mendicants who relied on alms for food. They ate whatever was offered to them, provided it met the "Threefold Purity" rule (the animal was not killed specifically for them).
The Buddha's teachings prioritize the middle path (avoiding extremes of self-indulgence and self-denial), which includes a practical approach to food. Refusing certain foods, like meat, when offered as alms might have been seen as an unnecessary rigidity in this context.
2. "Then he passed away from eating meat."
This is a common misunderstanding based on the Mahāparinibbāna Sutta, which describes the Buddha’s final days. It’s said that he ate a dish called sukara-maddava, often translated as "soft pork" or "boar's delight."
However, scholars debate the meaning of sukara-maddava. Some suggest it was a type of mushroom or plant dish rather than meat. Regardless, the Buddha’s death was due to natural causes, likely food poisoning, and not "karma" in the sense of a moral retribution for eating meat.
3. "Karma."
The concept of karma in Buddhism is nuanced and doesn’t work as immediate retribution. Karma refers to intentional actions and their effects on future rebirths and experiences. Eating meat offered as alms, under the guidelines provided, would not generate negative karma for monastics.
@@discursion 1. Buddha ate nothing while sitting under a tree for 49 days, most would consider this vegan. Afterwards he told his followers to eat food, because it keeps them alive. But I'll change it to "fasting" to settle you down.
2. The meat was tainted, he still died from eating meat lol, but okay I'll add "tainted" before meat to settle you down.
3. I never said its "immediate retribution", calm down.
@@TegridyMadeGames I thought the additions to the conversation were quite interesting, actually. It's interesting to understand the nuance, which was missing from your original comment.
I respect people who are self sustaining because its not cheap at all but to me it seems so Nobel. To actually care for the animals you eat.
My groceries are waaayy cheaper since going vegan, I have no idea where this myth of veganism being expensive comes from? Just don't splurge on packaged foods.
@ Im talking about homesteaders. It expensive but you know how your meat got on your plate
@@burnttoast8235
My bad, I realize I totally misread your comment, oops.
I'm also an aspiring homesteader, I've been surrounded by homesteaders and off grid people for a lot of my life, and from my experience, the animal husbandry part of homesteading is not as caring or nobel as you'd like to imagine. In most cases raising animals is totally unnecessary for self sufficiency, and a lot of cruelty still happens on small backyard farms and homesteads.
@ ah I see 🥲 Im not around any homesteaders just some chicken hobbyists at most.
I recognize the suffering of animals in a world where meat is mass produced/industrialized. What I would argue is a happier middle ground is only eating meat/meat products you know are ethically sourced. For example; if you know someone, personally, that owns chickens let's say, and the chickens will obviously produce eggs, and you also know that they're treated well, can roam freely, are taken care of when they're ill, given proper housing, etc., then getting eggs from that person isn't a bad thing.
You mentioned that, in at least your opinion, you don't find hunting for the sake of eating to be necessarily ethically wrong. I would agree, and therefore see no wrong with consumption of meat itself, so long as you know that the animal you're eating was treated well and given a good, long life and that it died naturally/of natural causes. I think we could maybe sleep (or rather, eat) a bit better if we knew that the sustenance we were consuming came from animals that were treated just as we prefer to be treated. Obviously this means that most of us probably wouldn't have access to meat unless we raised the animals ourselves, but what's the harm in that anyways?
Anyways, there's my two cents. I love the shots you set up in your videos and appreciate the rambling. I enjoy your art very much!
Much love
Chickens were selectively bread to lay eggs this often. It's the equivalent of a woman having a period every day, all her life. I would consider that suffering. The egg is the chicken's period btw. Naturally they were made to lay only about 4 eggs a year. Then, just like Josh mentioned in the video, egg laying chickens get culled, about half of them have to be killed because they are male. There is no such thing as ethically sourced animal product, nothing, nada
"so long as you know that the animal you're eating was treated well and given a good, long life and that it died naturally/of natural causes." - bullets and arrows are not natural causes, also cows live like 20 years and they become less meaty in their old age. Besides after you feed a cow for 20 years you will not feel like eating it. Sorry, this fantasy just can't come true. So, you'll have to make your ethical decisions based on how things really are today.
I can't live without eggs, watching you brush over them is insane to me. Maybe I eat too many eggs.
I was the same, then I discovered fried tofu seasoned with "black salt" is almost identical. Totally scratches the egg itch. And tofu is so much better for you!
You’re a goodun - bigmacs are rank anyway and I eat meat
I would say most emotionally intelligent people have a problem with factory farming. But vegans that are “morally superior” looking down on non vegan eaters is…not morally superior. We all look through different lenses and most of the time those lenses are based on routine and experience. Mass production and treatment of animals is the core issue imo.
Most vegans couldn't care less about moral superiority, they discuss morals to get others to see the horrors they are contributing to and to try to get them to stop.
The real problem is modern farming, cramming hundreds of animals into a confined space and making them live through a living hell, which I don’t support. If it’s done properly and the animal is reared outdoors in a field then killed quickly and humanely after a good life there should be no suffering whatsoever. Whether we like it or not humans have evolved to be omnivores, we have a dual digestive system, an acidic stomach for digesting meat and protein and a large intestine for fermenting vegetable fibre. There’s nothing wrong with eating meat, it’s natural. Also some people have certain health problems which mean they can only eat meat otherwise they wouldn’t be able to function properly.
So if being evolved to eat someone makes it okay do so, it sounds like if a tribe evolves to eat babies, by your logic, you would have to be okay with them eating babies
There is no way to kill something without suffering. Even if there were it's kind of messed up to kill something that's perfectly happy, especially when there are other options.
In my opinion, if you're an alpha male type, or a strong woman, you will more likely attract to high quality protein such as meat, steak etc. You'll probably attract to similar people too. The beta male, or those people of a weaker nature, those who tend to be soft, skinny and potbelly type males; the ones who are happy for the stronger people to stand in the way of danger and who wonder around hunched over like weak little hunchbacks; those people are more likely to eat anything, because they have no need to maintain a strong posture...or a strong will.
Meat is the best source of high quality food. Eggs, fish and dairy is the second best and plants and beans are the weakest form. If you want to raise weak people, then make them vegans. They do say the meek will inherit the earth. The problem is, there will always be strong people out there (good or bad) who will come and take control of your life. It is usually at that time you wished you had strong upstanding men around you to protect you.
Strong, upstanding, brave men defend the innocent and helpless they do not exploit them.
😂😂😂