The Stories of 'Hidden Heretics' | In Conversation with Ayala Fader
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- Опубликовано: 17 фев 2024
- In many of my videos, I've explored how Hasidic Jews live in the 21st century.
But what happens to those for whom this way of life doesn't work?
Some, like myself, leave. But not everyone who has doubts or different beliefs leaves.
Some stay.
And in this interview, I explore the stories of what we'll call here "the double lifers". The people who stay, despite rejecting the Orthodox Jewish core theological tenets.
Why do they stay? What's it like to live a double life? What are the moral quandaries of leaving or living a double life? Is it moral to have an affair after an arranged marriage? My wonderful guest delves into so many fascinating topics.
Ayala Fader is Professor of Anthropology at Fordham University. She is the author of the book 'Hidden Heretics, Jewish Doubt in the Digital Age', which tells the stories of a group of hidden heretics, how they lost faith and how they navigated life in the community in their new ways of understanding the world.
The book also explores the impact of the internet on Hasidic Judaism, a topic which as the viewers of this channel will know, has fascinated me greatly and been the subject of several of my videos, including my major documentary on how an insular society deals with the internet [ • How Hasidic Jews Lost ... .] Ayala also wrote the award-winning book Mitzvah Girls Bringing Up the Next Generation of Hasidic Jews in Brooklyn.
You can get Ayala Fader's books here: press.princeton.edu/our-autho...
Your channel gets better at every interview. I can’t stop to be amazed by your work.
Thank you so much!
An eye-opening informed glimpse into the difficult world of double-lifers. Professor Fader does not take a simplistic approach to this struggle. She is charming and well-informed as highlighted by Frieda’s gentle but probing questions and comments. There is no one dimension of simply leaving the faith as we are a folk, a family. Shkoyakh!
Thank you so much for your thoughtful comment as always Zelde. Fader approached this difficult subject with so much thoughtful, openhearted balance and ultimately, presented us with a situation that is universal and oh so human.
🌳😎🩵🩵💙🩵🌈🔆@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn
Interesting topic and lots of credit for Ayala for picking up on a lot of the nuances. I wanted to highlight an often-overlooked nuance: the diversity within chassidish communities themselves. It's not just a binary of chassidish versus Modern Orthodox. Many chassidish families embrace activities that might surprise some, like skiing, biking, and enjoying movies, while still maintaining a culturally chassidish lifestyle. The boundaries between these communities can be fluid, suggesting that individuals seeking change don't necessarily have to leave their entire community and society behind I sure you all know many families that have made such changes but didn't really lose there prestige within the community. There are many well educated and out of the box Chassidim that are not hiding there way of life and yet are full members of the society.
Very good point often lost in telling the story of the most “extreme” (and therefore most interesting).
Frieda , you are such a bright and intelligent and articulate woman. I gain so much from your channel
Aww Betty. ❤️ I really appreciate it.
I always tune into your interviews and leave with a deep appreciation of your insightful questions. You have a gift and a healthy curiosity. Dr. Fader speaks to my experience about people having doubts about their faith so I’m going to buy her book. I’m a Jewish chaplain who provides spiritual and emotional support to people of all faith traditions who are facing a life threatening disease or family trauma. In my work I often come across individuals who have doubts about their high orthodox religion (Orthodox Jews, Jehovah Witness, Mormons etc.) I don’t judge them and always offer them a listening ear and a compassionate heart.
You sound like an amazing and compassionate chaplain. I can't imagine a harder time to grapple with doubt then when going through a tragic loss.
I just bought Dr. Fader's book! I'm so excited to read it.
Another great interview, Frieda. Love the gentle chemistry between interviewer and interviewee. Especially loved hearing about the cultural importance of chasish lifestyle as a factor for keeping people in the community. Definitely want to read Dr. Faders’ books.
What a fascinating topic. It seems it would be so stressful to lead a double life.
As an aside , I love your channel for the thought provoking topics you explore. Thank you for the time you put into your channel.
Intelligent, sympathetic, insightful, human, emotional; with many ancillary notes as you traverse the main topic.
This was a fascinating conversation. I really enjoyed the language bit. Thank you!
I love specific feedback like this!
Hi Frieda! This has been so wonderful and helped me so much with my understanding of the Frum world. We are very close friends with a large family that has married into Hasidic and Satmar and families in Lakewood. I’m always filled with questions about how they sort out the customs between these different cultures. Somehow this was very helpful, even though that’s not what it was about. Also, it would seem that the same “large picture rules” that enforce community standards in Jewish religious communities are very similar to other isolated religious communities, like Amish. Anyway, I enjoyed this lady so much. Thank you for sharing!
I am really pleased that you have this wonderful channel were all topics can be discussed in such an open honest way thanks again for your thought provoking videos.
Peter, it’s good to hear form you as always.
Oooh! “Hidden Heretics “ This is a book I am getting.
Another great interview.
Thank you!
A rivetingly interesting video. I find myself in absolute agreement about the similarity between those who leave Hasidic and other religious communities and secular people who leave a marriage, a family and how difficult it is whenever you have the children's interests also at heart.
Exactly how I see it.
Frieda, another great topic and video. I look forward to each video, I always learn so much. This topic is so fascinating ! Have a great night.
As always Joe I’m so delighted to hear your feedback. Good night!
I appreciate the honest and balanced discussion of the issue. Thank you for providing that.
Such a complex subject, well handled.
This was a wonderful interview. Thank you for bringing this academic to our attention. I would love to hear more yours from an academic perspective 😊
My story from an academic perspective you mean? My experience as a blogger is in the book :) I had forgotten that I was told to throw away my laptop until I read my experience in her book.
Fascinating topic. It was very interesting how she described the life changing doubt and I can see how that idea, in part, will resonate with people from other religious practices. You guys gave me so much to think about! Thank you!
It resonated with me. Totally not a Jew. I'm a Baptist. I went through some life changing doubt. It shook my world. It was very painful.
Fantastic Interview! Thanks for all the great content Frieda!
Thanks for watching!
Fascinating discussion & love the questions Frieda chose to ask. I’m a licensed clinical social worker in private practice & see a number of clients who have left high demand/high control religions, though none who have left a Hasidic Jewish community. I find religious deconstruction & the reconstruction that follows, so interesting & eye opening, & I am grateful for this conversation.
What makes Judaism so different than the various Christian-based religions, imo, is that Judaism seems to be much more a culture than just a faith. That cultural connection to others is powerful & fiercely bonding in a different way than say my religion, Episcopalian.
My best friend of 45 years is Jewish, & I was always so jealous of her lighting the candles for Shabbos on Fridays, & celebrating the different holidays & festivals. Part of that was just because it was different, but looking back now, I think what pulled me in the most was the sense of connection & community that was palpable.
I’m definitely going to read both of the professor’s books that were discussed here.
I think many people recognise in very traditional communities a connection that perhaps we are lacking and that is quite beautiful. Thanks for your comment!
Excellent program. Universal application.Thank you.
Another enjoyable video! I always learn so much from your videos that you make. Thank you so much for your endeavors ❤😊
I'm glad you're here for it!
Amazing interview. Thank you and I am going to read the books.
Thank you both. So interesting. You increase my knowledge with every interview, Frieda.
I just discovered your channel and am doing a marathon. Your channel, especially your topics, is so enlightening! I’m an agnostic but am fascinated by all religions and cultures. Thank you. ❤🌺
Love this fascinating interview. Just wanted to add there's another phenomenon popular in my Chasidish circles in which the couple explores broadening their perspectives so to speak and then make gradual changes while both are on board. The thought of leaving completely is really not appealing. This happened to me and my husband and we're BH so happy. We moved to a slightly more open minded place and are raising our children 'in the system' but in our own path. We encourage our kids to think independantly and to keep asking any questions they may have about any topic. BH we are seeing beautiful results and our kids, including teenagers are going through a much easier time than me or my husband ever did while growing up. Btw, I like the Am Yisroel Chai addition in the background. Did you paint it yourself?
Yes, I think this is often such a blessed outcome, so much pain avoided. It’s not always doable, but personally I often think it’s a very happy outcome (unless of course there’s a toxic marriage or one partner is being pulled to a new community against their will).
Another great interview! The part about Yiddish at the end was so interesting! I haven't seen all your videos but I wonder if you have done a video about your experience with Yiddish? What is your relationship with this language? How did you learn it (I know the answer but I'd be thrilled to hear your tell us about it)? What place does Yiddish take in your life? Do you read books in Yiddish, do you use Yiddish with your son? What place does Yiddish have in your everyday life?
What great questions. No, I have not done a video on my own relationship to Yiddish but now I want to :)
Such an incredibly interesting interview!! !👏👏 I definitely want to read her book! Thanks for another amazing video! ❤
Thank you so much my dear PoppyOak!
A very interesting conversation as always. ❤❤❤
Thank you Jill for your thoughts as always!
Very informative Thank you ❤
Great interview!!
To touch on the topic of Yiddish, a similar linguistic morphology happened in Japanese culture. In short, the reason there are three writing systems today is because young japanese girls and women created a truncated and "cuter" version of kanji, that being hiragana. I believe it took roughly 1.5 centuries to see hiragana established as an official writing system in Japan.
So interesting, I never heard this of hiragana.
Thank you both.
I used to be hassidic, what put me off was become engaged to a satmar new yorker and two sides of him . Now I'm just obversant
Did you break off the engagement because of your realization?
Yes i did and guidance das torah. @GreenCanvasInteriorscape
@@GreenCanvasInteriorscape it's still roar emotionally. Been four months
@@raizellouisebarnes6348 *raw.
This conversation was very interesting. The similarities to gay people living double lives and Jewish people are striking. Especially the process of the individual discovering their true self. Thanks!
What an excellent point, as the identity factor is so central for both groups.
just yesterday i listened to the meaningful people podcast,, where a former Christian converted to Orthodox Judaism!
Interesting. I'll have a look.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklynyou should.its fascinating...food for thought
Just ordered both of Professor Fader's books based solely on the merits of this fascinating interview, and I'm looking forward to reading them!
Absolutely fascinating discussion frieda!!!
Fascinating interview. I am going to.purchase both books now!!
Have I mentioned that the auto-generated subtitles sometimes render “Hasidic Jews” as “acidic juice.” Which is absolutely hysterical.😂😂😂
Ha ha, welcome to my channel about Acidic Juice! Today we are again squeezing lemons!!
Sometimes I fix it but it takes HOUR and HOURS (days). The auto-generated subtitles also changes Toirah, the way Pearl says it, to some not nice word.
I feel sad for people that are stuck living a double life. How painful that must be. Your channel is evolving in such an exciting way. I am so eager to see where you go from here.
Thanks Linda!
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn this interview is still on my mind. My belief is that to have good mental health, authenticity is essential. The concept of living a double life is hard for me to accept. I guess I get stuck in a moral dilemma as well. Living a lie to protect ultimately hurts everyone. I have to figure all this out. It may take awhile.
I know. But what would you do if you had a beautiful family on the line? So many relationships that depended on hiding a part of yourself? So many people who stand to get so hurt if you show them your all? I think there are no easy answers. But I too think about it and haven’t figured out a simple answer.
This isn’t complex at all. Once you bring a child into the world, your obligation to that child is to maintain a stable family environment which includes love, guidance and nurture until they reach 18 years of age. And only then, you may serve your own interests. The ‘me first’ morality tears apart families of all backgrounds and damages a child’s chance of becoming a confident, mature adult. Everyone is steeped in the indoctrination and practices of their own particular culture. It is the right thing to postpone self interest rather than harming a child by disintegrating the continuity of their world. @@FriedaVizelBrooklyn
Why would anybody stay married if we were all given our own sufficient finances and housing? So many people are forced to remain in uncomfortable family situations because of money. It is not all about religion.
Wonderful interview. You are great with your questions while giving freedom for the interviewee to talk about what he or she wants to address.
I couldn’t agree more.
I am looking forward to reading this book! I have so many thoughts. As a semi-active latter-day Saint (Mormon), I really appreciated much of this interview.
One thing I think a lot of secular people don't understand is their own conformity from religious peoples perspective. When I was outside the church, there were lots of "mormon habits" I kept up BECAUSE I liked the way they made me stand out, and I had this resistance to peer pressure from my secular friends as much as my religious community.
This was so interesting. I never heard of that before. In Hasidism, most people who leave are accused of throwing it all away all the way, trying to shed it all. Almost like maybe it’s a thing that carries shame, not pride.
Very informative interview.
I need to lay my hands on those books. Stat.
Thank you Frieda ❤ I love learning about this community and you.
I’m glad you’re along for the ride my friend.
What an amazing channel! Frieda, you do so much research and work, you are a delight to watch!
Frieda, this is the most fascinating interview you’ve graciously given us to date. Although I think I say that every time you release new content. I cannot wait to read Ayala’s book. It’s unusual for me to watch an interview that I’m plotzing to either ask a question, make a comment, or challenge a word choice (not in a trivial way, but there are things about the use of words such as “faith,” “moral,” “ethical” etc. Also, so, so interesting re the secular audience expecting you to “rescue” ppl in religious communities. IMO, there may be a bit of antisemitism lurking in their “legitimate concern.” As a subject for further investigation for anthropologists, I’d love to see scholarship on Jewish communities outside of New York - such as the life of southern Jews. I hope there are links to the blogs and Yiddish Internet sites in the notes.
Wow! The idea of standardizing Yiddish seems to me to be such a reflection of the general inflexibility of the Chasidis communities to “standardize” *all* aspects of Jewishness, which seems to me to be very … well, not the Jewish way. I don’t know much about Christianity, but this seems almost like more like the Catholic structure of belief.
So sorry to ramble! But I’d definitely pay to be “in the room” where you’re having these captivating discussions.
Thank you so much for this interview!
I really enjoyed reading your comment. Re the “legitimate concern”… I think you’re hitting on something that’s there.
I should also link to the twitter account I mentioned: twitter.com/hasidic_1
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn
Thank you. I appreciate the validation. Even mentioning something like that is just ick. You have such a generous, kind response to questions and I strive to show up for others with the openness that seems to come so naturally to you. Although my heart is so broken these days that I’ve been living in a kind of emotional hibernation, meaning I limit my interactions to people I feel safe with, sadly. Even writing a comment like this is scary. Thank you again for making a public space for this. All of your fans seem pretty terrific and genuinely curious without being judgmental, which I appreciate. ❤
I know what you mean. Sometimes people online can be so mean. My last video (with Tim Vetter) I thought was sweet and innocent but my hosts ended up getting quite hurt by the comments criticizing them, especially for what the woman wore. I feel like sometimes people say things online and have no idea how much hurt they are causing behind the scenes. I believe it’s worth it to protect ourselves from this because the pain from internet comments is not worth it.
i like that you do this in a respectful way that is not antiJewish or antiReligion. i say that as an atheist who, oddly, respects religion and the religious. some of the most intolerant folk are atheists and "humanists." and some very humanistic folk are Jews..
This has been my experience on occasion too.
Hello, Frieda. Going back to previously viewed videos. I’m commenting for the algorithm 🌞
Very interesting. From my (outside) perspective I actually believed that many did not really want to leave Yiddishkeit but rather were just looking for a non chassidish life style . I can see that modern orthodoxy is not the optimal spiritual solution. However there is a large segment in the "Flatbush" communities that have chassidish roots . It may be that many in the chassidishe world are simply not aware and unfortunately end up throwing out the baby with the bath
What I find especially tragic is that the age of the universe keeps on popping up as one of the most difficult issues in emunah. It needs to be said that this point is in no way dogmatic to Judaism. There are no tanoim, amoraim or rishonim who make this dogmatic. It has become a "pseudo dogma" relatively recently. You can be a chareidi Torah observant Jew and believe about the age of the universe whatever you like.
However Torah min ha'shomayim is not negotiable
The age of the universe is actually very important since all documents are dated referring to the age of the world. A wrong date on a get would invalidate it. If a woman were to marry without a kosher get, the children would be considered mamzerim (bastards) and so would their offspring forever.
Very interesting interview. I would have liked to know more about Ms. Fader background and how that might have influenced her books.
Ooh good point. Sorry I didn't go there. She explains it in the book. She grew up as a secular Jew (I believe reform) and got into this by first doing a linguistics PhD on Boro Park Hasidic girls.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn- Is that the other book you discussed here, Mitzvah Girls? She said it was about mothers & daughters & the speaking of language, especially gender differences with men. Were all the moms & daughters just from Boro Park?
@@liseklerekoper2441 Yes, it's Mitzvah Girls!
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn - Thank you … just added both books to my “To Read” list. 👍
What a wonderful conversation you both had. I can’t wait to get that book.
Thanks Jill! Report back after you read it :)
I really enjoy Friedas videos. I don’t know much about the Jewish faith let alone Hasidic, orthodox Jewish life. But when talking about these things there is always respect.
I left my religion and it’s much harder than some people know, especially with a high demand religion. It’s been an adjustment. But it’s encouraging to see that there can still be a love and respect even though not in the religion in that way anymore. ❤
Great interview! I think anyone brought up in a religious system, regardless of which faith, have to come to a real understanding within themselves, “do I believe this?” It is hard for parents when children leave the religious communities they raised them in, especially “the faith.” When my own children left our Christian faith, I realized they had to come to their own conclusions, and I continue to pray for they and support them where I can. Great discussion!
What a great perspective. Thank you for sharing. It's heartening to read.
Thanks!
I was just wondering why Ms fader is interested in this. Did she grow up chasidish and left? Or just something she explored?
Freida your interviews are so informative.
No, she grew up reform. She did her PhD in Boro Park on Bobover girls and Yiddish. She lived in Boro Park to do her research. It was very immersive and she got to know a whole bunch of people, including a group of “double lifers” whose experiences she ended up documenting in a book.
Fascinating stories, well asked questions and articulate answers. I was rreminded once again that we humans can be so brave to follow own truth whatever the cost may be. And that is what is reshaping the world. It makes ense of unity and peace grow in my heart amidst this madness. Love from Istanbul, Turkey.
Thank you - may we all find a bit of peace in this mad world.
17:50 Therapists and people who serve as so-called “guidance persons” can be damaging to people seeking help with life crises. It is imperative people search and find various sources for answers they seek, then discover solutions that work best for the individual.
Another interesting video. Thanks.
Thanks for watching/listening!
always wondered about the chassidish couple in the movie theater 😅
brilliant interview - so on point
Ha ha, you sound like a bit of a yenta like me.
That’s us! Hi!
@faigyfeig 😂 Next time you see someone staring at you shout out into the quiet theater “Chaya Friedman is that you?!”
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn Ha yeah definitely a yenta. I'm fascinated by this stuff!
It's a great inside story, Frieda . Thank you both
Thank you for watching!
In some ways being Orthodox and living in a country like Canada, I feel that it is a double life-style...Not necessarily a lie as the phrase might imply, but the need for compromise comes up at a higher rate than if I were living in some hypothetical Israel (as opposed to the real Israel which is a secular, yet Jewish state). Or am I the only person that feels this way?
I remember being friends with some girls who had gone to Bobov (before the split) for HS. They didn't primarily identify as Bobov, and their families didn't go by everything, so they were fine with questioning beige shtrimps, and they were never going to leave. However they did note that girls whose families were really bought into beige shtrimps, and questioned it, they were more likely to leave. (that's just an example of things I was told) I was struck by it.
But it seems to me that in the end of the day, the more modern families have a greater dropoff rate. Which makes sense because there's less of a price to pay for leaving.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn or maybe there was less to hold on to....
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyncould be. I unfortunately have lost touch with those people I was friends with. I therefore never got to ask about those classmates or school mates. I do remember in seminary, someone I would eventually become friends with telling that I was nuts for not understanding that a girl who loudly questions beige shtrimps is in trouble. This friend is from a family where the father identifies strongly as a Lubavitcher, although not originally, and her mother comes from a very strong Hungarian background. She and most of her female siblings didn't go to Lubavitch schools, so she knew. This friend went to Tomer Devorah. She could get away with questioning things, because she personally identified as a Lubavitcher (although not all of her siblings do). However, she said that it wasn't the same for classmates. Although your point is interesting, and I do wonder.
So many jumping off points introduced in this interview. I ended up buying the book, and it's now in my "to read" queue.
I've been trying to make an effort, of late, to reduce my RUclips time. Thanks for making this so difficult. 😂
Ha ha, at least when you’ll read the book you’ll (probably?) be off RUclips…
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn 🙂
Great channel
It is sad for those for whom it doesn’t work. Very sad indeed.
But humans generally follow the flock. I think we underestimate how much we are all just trying to fit into our societies, no matter where we are. Very few people can truly free themselves of social conventions. I know I myself am much more beholden to the standards in my society than I ever expected to be. It’s just natural to want to feel accepted and acceptance is always conditional on certain kinds of conformity.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn Yes you are right agree.
I have met Satmar Hasidim that are lovely kind people and are happy with their lives.
Yes most of us want to feel part of a group and each group has it's own boundaries and rules.
Even in mainstream society rules exist.
In many groups
people are outed if not following rules.
I give you credit for finding the strength to leave but you are very respectful.
I am Jewish too from NYC.
Right now we are being hurt by the world.
We all should stick together and help each other.
Anyone who has been following this channel is aware that "Studying all day" isn't part of chassidic life. So let's minus this "Very repressive" and "Sad" non existing factor from the equation.
Also: Who says we were "given brains to think on our own" as in 'decide for ourselves what we want to do' and that following rules isn't "true Judaism"? How about following rules is the real Judaism and brains are there to study and understand many of those rules and their deeper meanings?
Enjoyed this conversation so much, thank you.
Donna, interesting. I think the idea is to preserve their own faith and not be exposed to ideas that will corrupt them.
UMM, many fundamentalist Christian groups also stay in major bubbles and encourage underage marriage or plural marriage.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn thank you, preservation of a culture and a way of life.
@@chetyoubetya8565 I agree, could it be more about control? Isolate, limit education and create dependency.
I didn’t grow up Haredi but from my perspective most Haredim who leave seem to give up on Judaism almost totally. But there are plenty of streams from the varieties of Modern Orthodox to as far left and inclusive as humanistic Judaism that offer alternatives to Haredi philosophy and approach but still tap into the Jewish Tradition. Why do so many who leave though just become totally secular Jews ? Was their experience with Yiddishkeit that negative that they want nothing to do with it in any way? I do get why though one would do this if one was abused by a rabbi or other authority in the religious community.
Frieda, what is the name of the academic you mentioned at 1:04 mins? I couldn't quite catch it.
You mean at an hour in when we talked about Yiddish? I mentioned Chaya Nove. Her lectures on RUclips are often in Yiddish. She’s a Satmar Kiryas Joel graduate and was my high school teacher and I hope one day to have her on my channel!
@FriedaVizelBrooklyn Yes, I'll look for her lectures, and I hope you are able to get her on your channel. This was a great episode, I could have listened to a whole other hour of your conversation with Ayala. Thank you!
i loved this interview sm! and i especially loved the discussion about innovations of yiddish, that was so fascinating. tysm :)
Very interesting conversation!
1:04:43 Can you please let us know the name of the lecturer? Chaya …? Would love to listen to that lecture.
It’s Chaya Nove
@@FriedaVizelBrooklynthanks so much!
I lived this life for approximately 8 years. Eventually I decided to focus on trauma healing instead of my doubts as I figured out that wrestling with my inner demons would bring me a lot more joy than any sort of lifestyle change would. What I didn’t anticipate was that healing my trauma would bring back my faith. It’s ten years since my doubts first began. The world out there has gone crazy since. Many of the people I admired then are either having regrets or have gone off the deep end completely. I’m still in touch with many of them as well as my orthoprax friends. I’m so happy to be where I’m at, so glad I didn’t do anything rash, and so relieved my kids are sheltered from all of this woke nonsense.
Faigy I always enjoy your comments but especially appreciate you sharing a piece of your life. I’m happy you could find a beautiful way forward. Many people are not so lucky.
Fantastic! She’s vvvv well informed - and did lots of research.
I’m amazed at how riveting this story was. I can totally understand why one parent would sacrifice themselves for their family. Gay people, Jewish people and so many others have been told to cover up their true feelings and real selves. This is the reality of being human. Don’t rock the boat and stay quiet.
Yes, and while some of the people described here live a secular life on the down low, I know some double lifers who don’t do any of that. They just lost faith and chose to not rock the boat, to stay for their family. No affairs, no secret whole other life, just accepting their place because the alternative doesn’t make sense. It’s no small thing!
🌳🌲🌈🔆FRIEDA: THANK YOU😎🩵🩵 VERY INTERESTING 🌸🌸BROWN ~ “The Stories of 'Hidden Heretics' | In Conversation with Ayala Fader”😊🩵💙🩵🌳🌳🌳🌳🌲🌳🌳🌳🩵💙🩵🌳🌳🌳
The is wonderful. Thank you both. I am not Jewish but have been around the edges of the community for years. My very WASP high school did Fiddler as the major play way back in the day in northeast Ohio….and I was in charge of makeup. I designed it, bought the supplies and made the beards, even died hair..male and female. It was a public high school and now no one could do this yet we all learned so much. Having only specific identities in theater open to those of the identity forces so much into silos and build as many walls as it opens doors. Without a lifetime of experiences too long for here please know I have been saying for years that “the most powerful book in the world is……(long pause, a bit of a question and usually to WASP/Christian audiences….and then, I give the answer, deadpan)…..the dictionary. Still true. Think about it. Re English and women……health care for children and then economics for the community. Women really are the most powerful community gatekeepers…..that’s why there are so many rules. Your shoe story shows the social power of women. Thanks again.
I did not know that some Jews will not ride bicycles. I am Orthodox and love to ride my bike. What is the idea of not riding it (other than on Sabbath)?
Well, women don’t ride bicycles because of modesty. And most men don’t ride bicycles because… it’s seen as weird, I guess. I know in Belgium bicycles is a lot more accepted among Hasidim. I also see more Hasidim on bicycles (only men, not women) in Boro Park, but not in Williamsburg. The Satmar Rebbe was against bicycles and we called them Sheygatz Bikes. They were too dangerous because they made things that should be far very near…
I wonder how or if the recent events in Israel and the rise in antisemitism changes people's decision to leave the frum world entirely versus living the double life? I hate to say it, but I trust non Jewish people far less than I used to. Even if I were to stop believing in the religion, I'm pretty sure I'd stay put. The secular world just doesn't look very attractive to me. Also I'd probably make almost any sacrifice to stay with my husband and my family, all of whom I love dearly.
That's a very interesting question.
Although I should say there are quite a few OTD people (not all by any means but quite a few) who are anti-Israel or anti-Zionist. I bet those people would leave anyway. But personally, I feel like the world is making us aware who our people are...
As for OTDers who are antizionist, I see them the same way I see people like Jewish Voice For Peace. A desperate bid for acceptance by the wider world. A sort of Stockholm Syndrome. We can see how all that worked out for the poor folks down in southern Israel who were massacred. These were by and large the peaciest of peaceniks. They pushed for many more work visas for Gazans and they drove Gazans around for Israeli medical treatment. The Palestinians they helped gave intel to Hamas to assist in the massacre. I am not unsympathetic to OTDers in general. But personally I cannot abide anti Zionists. I see them as straight up capos.
The "mashpia" referenced at around 28 minute mark is not a chabad concept. Our sages advice us 'Aseh lecha rav'. Get yourself a personal mentor. Someone you look up to who cares about your wellbeing. Someone like Pearl would be the perfect mashpia type for Freida. The Lubavitcher Rebbe didn't invent this concept but reminded his followers very often to follow this keep this instruction. It's about checks and balances on one hand but at the same time a spiritual recipe to a good life. Just as healing is divine but comes through a doctor, so does the perfect advice come to you through your mashpia. If you follow the Torah's instruction to get a mentor, Hashem will make sure he or she will know what to tell you.
So far Pearl’s mashpia on me hasn’t brought me back to the fold. Does that mean it’s not working?
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn I tried to illustrate the concept in a way the reader could relate to it. I didn't say she IS your mashpia but that she would be the type. It would have to be a mutual agreement. You would have to be ready to accept her advice no matter what. Obviously you would only agree to do that if you felt she understand where YOU are coming from and currently stand and that her advice would be in YOUR best interest. She would only agree to be your mashpia if she felt that she actually cares about you (which I think she does) and that you trust her. Ase lecha rav isn't only about 'therapy' or getting people to make huge changes. It's a very simple and practical thing to do if you want to be living a good life and be honest with yourself. "Love covers all sins". Starting from self love. That's why parents can't be mashpia to their children either. It needs to be a close outsider.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn I'm not sure what the fold is and why you need to be there. Is there a place you want to go and need help getting to? Did you expect Pearl to take you there and she didn't??
@@chasidance Ha ha, okay I'm not playing this game. I was just being cheeky. I think some people think Pearl is supposed to make a frummie of me but you'd never think that!!
What happened to the Sefardic jews that came to NY in the 1600s their descendants are not jewish.
This has happened throughout history again amd again only a like two tribes out of 12 are left. However Chereidi Torah studying Judaism is the only culture that has remained very similar to what is depicted in the Talmud regarding 2500 years ago.
A lot of customs in Williamsburg are difficult to find sources for in Torah text so it is understandable why some people from that community find it doesn't hold water. It is important to remain faithful to the text and that is robust.
One can ride a bike and ski and stay in the community. You really need to get out of New York ASAP then move westward to get some balance in your life while staying in the community instead of going totally off the derech. OTDers really have no ability to separate issues. I truly feel sorry for cloistered New Yorkers.
I remember reading about Frum men, married with children but knew they were gay. They felt they couldn't leave and live their true life.
Makes sense. I think the story of gay people in heterosexual marriages is not unique to this community.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn Totally. I'd argue this is how the majority of gay men are living when you think about the demographics of the world as a whole.
I know such a person & after 25 years of marriage & 10 kids later he told his wife he was gay & got divorced but even though he is open about it & lives an open gay lifestyle with his domestic partner he still wears the chasidishe levush on shabbos & yom tov I guess he is a member of the 612 club LOL (true story)
Did you ever experience some sharing that they felt shunned?
Born and raised Christian but i was always intrigued by rabbinic commentaries and their interpretation of the Torah. Jewish sages of renown who gave Judaism a spark of both earthly and heavenly interest. I believe this holy curiosity should be encouraged and not given to stigma.
28:00 - Mashpia? Hi Frieda and Ayala!
Ahhh, maybe mashpia.
Hi Ari! 😊
56:38 onwards!.. 💯 Woah!… 🤯 😮
I’m surprised by how much people liked the insights on Yiddish!
Thanks frida for another amazing video, your talent and sensitively really shines at your interviews.
Just curious about about how many of such people she spoke to befor writing the book and how many of such people are there does she or you have any numbers?
Thanks for watching! Good question. After her book came out someone said to me: I think she's documenting a tiny phenomena. But I think there are a lot of people who while they don't have life changing doubt, live with a sense of more liberalism on the down low but they don't show it. I have a biased perspective because people show their true selves to me but in my experience a lot of people feel that doing things that are not really allowed but doing them on the down low is... life...
What is secular Yiddish?
I kind of find it a paradox?
Secular Yiddish are also referred to as Yiddishists. They are people who are devoted to keeping Yiddish language, culture and literature alive but not for religious reasons but cultural reasons. There's a bit of tension between secular Yiddishists and Hasidic Yiddish speakers. For instance, secular Yiddishists can be language purists while Hasidic Yiddish speakers will nilly willy use English in their Yiddish.
There's a lot of secular Yiddish literature that Hasidim don't consider kosher!
That's very interesting.
I was totally incorrect.
I was thinking most secular Jews don't speak Yiddish.
That's why I didn't comprehend the term secular Yiddish.
Thank you for the detailed explanation.
the secular Yiddish movement is not huge but they are a very committed bunch.
I believe more people would leave if they were not afraid
Let's say a family picked up and left as a group easier.
I think more people would leave.
This goes on in other communities.
I think more people will leave over time.
It really comes down to do you believe what you are taught.
This isn't complex at all.
Once you bring a child into the world, your obligation to that child is to maintain a stable family environment which includes love, guidance and nurture until they reach 18 years of age. And only then, you may serve your own interests. The 'me first' morality tears apart families of all backgrounds and damages a child's chance of becoming a confident, mature adult.
Whether secular or religious,
the right thing is to postpone self interest rather than harming a child by disintegrating the
continuity of their world.
Sounds very black and white doesn’t it?
Many children from unstable homes will tell you how destructive it was that their parents stayed together ostensibly “for the kids” and “for stability”.
In Fader’s book, some children were devastated by what they felt was a parent’s hypocrisy.
And most of all, parents want to impart values to their children. If they were 18-20 when they got married, they might well evolve and start to have different values. It’s not selfish to want to impart those values to their children. And yet, if the other partner has different values, again we are at an impasse.
Life is just not black and white. Hard and fast rules about what constitute selfishness and what is sacrifice are fictions. Is staying married and having an affair selfless? Is getting divorced in order to be honest selfless? Life isn’t as tidy as some like to imagine it to be.
Professor Fader alluded to “curious kids.” The “normal” road to adulthood in the secular world includes a period of rebellion - the teenage years. I’m interested in hearing if this occurs in Haredi communities and if it does how is it handled.
I think most Hasidic teenagers are good kids, especially the girls.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklynIt may be a cultural bias but not all rebellion is bad. “Good kids” and rebel as well.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn can you explain what you mean by "good kids"? I am the mother of an Italian adolescent who has been brought up without a religion in a loosely culturally Catholic world and I also teach adolescents of all faiths in a very diverse school, but in my experience I have never encountered "bad" adolescents, just a lot of them struggle with rules, especially if the reasons for those rules are based on "faith" and not on logic. I myself was a "good" kid: helping my ill mum, bright in school, wearing very modest clothes, creating very few problems. But I was percieved as a "lost" child simply because I started questioning my faith and stopped going to Church. Therefore I'd really appreciate if you could expand a bit more on the concept of "good adolescent". If my child suddenly converted to a religion I would feel very surprised, but not hurt in any way since it is his life and he can believe in whatever he likes. After all my takeaway from this fascinating conversation is that leading a double life is possible, but the toll one has to pay is enormous. I didn't want it for me even though I knew that meant hurting my mum and I would not want it for anybody else, unless they chose it and thoight it's the best choice for them. But all choices are "good" in my opinion, as long as they are personal ones and not too hurtful. And all kids are "good", some of them are them are just struggling to find their way.
@@mimmiblu6138 Yeah, see by "good kids" I really meant obedient kids. I didn't mean to make a value judgment of which kids are worthy and which are not. It was more about saying "these kids are obedient and don't challenge their parents very much, they are helpful and sweet". Again, not a judgement, but also I think some kids need a change to be not-so-good and without that formative experience they delay a certain maturing. I fully understand where you are coming from in your comments because in a way I relate to the kind of kid you were.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn thank you for your answer! Very much appreciated.
I wish NY had a Haredi Orthodox church I could attend.
What does that mean? Jews don't have churches, they have synagogues, and many kinds. Why can't you attend one?
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn
א דנק, פרידה.
You're a real נשמע. I'm Christian Orthodox (יווניש/Gk.) and follow
עקוב ברנשטיין, אברהם בן ברוך(🇮🇱) and נתניאל קפנר for Eastern Orthodox Jewry
Faith & Praxis issues. On occasion I attend Shule and shteibl. I just wish there existed an Jewish Orthodox מנזר like the Hebrew Catholics have in הארץ.
Don't get me wrong, I'm very much at home in my Russian Jewish Orthodox parish were most of us are Yidden. ב☦️ה
i wouldnt say that medications were prescribed to the woman without malice. Any certified psychiatrist knows fully well that wanting to get a drivers license is zero grounds for psychotropic meds. They may have opted to medicate her in hopes of disorienting her enough to incapacitate her and her dreams and goals...this so called doctor should definitely lose their license.
This is a very sad thought and I hope that it isn't the case... I think there's always more to a story so it's hard to respond to a short snippet like this. But of course bad actors do exist...
Frida, hearing you speak Yiddish was amusing. I've never heard German with that kind of L sound from the back of the throat that you used as a second example. It reminded me of how Ruth Bader Ghinsberg and Bernie Sanders make their L sound in english.
It sounds very different from Pennsylvanisch Deitsche
Which sounded fancy or geeky, the first example or the second one?
I had to go back and check! The first one is geeky, the one with the more Spanish sounding L. The one with the American L is fancy! Ooolalala!
I must have said a dozen times; _"I told you so,"_ to no one in particular. I _(personally)_ fully agree with the Hasidic desire to protect their communities, especially di kinder. *But* monoculture in religion and culture is unhealthy. Differences *must be* allowed to exist, both in culture and religion. And, anyone who honestly goes into religious studies, sees that there's sometimes more than one valid interpretation. Yes, a sect can have a specific interpretation. But, they must be willing to allow discussions as to why they feel their interpretation is correct, and some other is not. And if it comes to a point that they aren't correct, willing to change.
My fear is that the Hasidic Ashkenazi Yiddishkeit becomes too brittle and no longer relevant. We *all* would be the less for that.
There’s more than enough internal diversity and flexibility for Hasidism to continue to flourish and adapt and grow.
as a חרדי אנוס I prefer this type of video rather than documenting the Haredies which I find boring
I'm glad to hear. I find it all interesting but this is especially a story full of tension. The people who live double lives... their stories are really intense!
@FriedaVizelBrooklyn it's not "black and white", there are several ways of doing it. Some don't intentionally live double lives. Just skip a תפילה here and there, or bite the fingernails on Shabbos or eat milk chocolate after schnizel. It's just בין אדם למקום so it's nobody's business.
27:32 mashpia
I think Ayala Fader talked a lot but didn't really give poignant answers. This was stressful to watch. Having the attitude that no one religion has all the answers have always given me peace. If I was an Orthodox Jew, it would break me many times over. To be free to do what I want, when I want, has always been at the top of the list for my life on earth. I wonder if Orthodox Jews, wake up some mornings, and think I really hate this life. God bless Frieda. SphereMotor, the future of electricity.
WIth regards to waking up and think “I really hate this life.” I think this happens to people of all walks of life. Sometimes we get depressed and unhappy with our lot, especially if we are unsatisfied with certain aspects. I’m sure Orthodox Jews are no less exempt from this feeling. For some, the feeling is specifically about Orthodoxy (ie if only I would leave then I’ll be happy) but for many it’s not.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn Thank you. That was nicely described.
mashpia every Chabad person is supposed to have a person who can guide them