If Bosch is not going to support their motors, they ought to have a 'rebuild/refurb' service that would allow people to avoid throwing away their injured motors.
Bosch are actually one of if not the best for this. They even sell a DIY service kit for the first two gens of their motors. Which is the left half of the motor for about £100 I think it was. Bought one and fitted it on a bike of mine. Not childs play to fit but certainly doable for most. Can't praise Bosch enough for this type of thing.
@@tombowman4489 how is servicing it yourself? I've done lots of work on dirtbikes and cars and this all looks like stuff I could do, but I'm not sure if I'll run in to dead ends trying to get a replacement bearing or something then have shops refuse to touch it if I've opened it
@@gregmossed it's a kit Bosch sell for the Gen 2(possibly gen 1 also). It comes with everything you need apart from the locking tool to open the motor. It's basically replacing the whole one side of the motor which includes a few gears and such. It needs to be done with quite methodically with a high level of hygiene and precision but overall was crazy difficult. There is a main drive cylinder they tell you not to handle but mine was rusty so needed a bit of love. They don't give you a new one of these but I've heard there is a company who makes titanium copies of them if you want to upgrade or yours is a bit worse for wear. Unfortunately, I do not think they make such a kit for the very latest Bosch motors though.
Got be honest bought my first middrive needed battery few cables and a display ,contacted bosch as if was a haibike sl29 with probs the first performance motor wS from 2014 the bike is absolutely beautiful has yamaha look allover it white yellow black grey lil orange but sprayed like a artist the way ithe colours twist around the bars everything on it highend and is still parts been used today on bikes i first went to ebay were it started a bidding war between 2 germans 😂😂 was only liokin a battery but i got in contact with bosch now remember never had a middrive before sent them a few vids they asked for they sent me a diagnostic kit that plugged in stayed on and sent back to them they were surprised how good the motor was sent me a full service kit and bits i might need in the future got me the correct battery in white and the original display all if i promised to sell the bike back to them when im selling or a swap ,blown away by this thanks bosch is all i can say 😎
Me? I love that the customer wanted to fix their bike even though it may not have made great business sense. He or she liked it, it was theirs and sometimes that is all it takes. 'Right to repair' absolutely should be a hot topic for all industry around the globe. There's no excuse in the world against it.... man I love your thoroughness and skill level. 2nd to none.
The Bosch frame mounting system with that unusual flange makes it impossible to swap or repair with a different brand motor. Given that a Tongsheng ebike motor (about $300USD) *retails* for 1/3 the cost of the Bosch motor *wholesale* shop price and the fragile nature of the Bosch, the Bosch system seems designed to extract revenue from unsuspecting bikers and shops. With no mounting standard or cost control of spares, the system is not "repairable" except by extraordinary means they way you've done.
I had E-bike based on a Brose system. One day some bastard stole my computer aka control unit. After i got a replacement off the eBay it just popped error and refused to work. Same model of computer. For same motor etc. Just different serial number. Turns out Brose just decided to kill off any way to replace parts if the original got stolen or died. You must have matching serial numbers, else nothing would work. To fix this, you must send the whole system, including the battery, to an authorized service center. And since the new computer was purchased off ebay there's a chance your repair still won't be authorized by Brose. No more e-bikes for me. This is totally anti-consumer. We need to add e-bikes to right to repair bill.
Whoaa...before comments go any further on this post, bear in mind that control modules are almost always needing to be matched to their operating circuit to function. This is for a number of reasons. Designed obsolescence is very real, but not necessarily in this case.
I can't stand that companies serialize components. You can usually flash the firmware so that the serial number will match everything else, BUT that also usually requires their hardware and software to do. They probably do that to deter theft, but at the same time makes repairs challenging to do.
Commenting about your comment at 07:36. Apple did make some assemblies available at exorbitant prices to discourage repair and encourage buying a new one. And if Bosch were to start selling the pcb assembly at 350£ let's say it would just do the same thing. Companies just do that to look like they are with right to repair when in actuality they are not.
If you’ve ever opened up some laptop, phone devices you can understand why not providing component level spares is actually protecting customers from dodgy repairs. iPhones for example have an incredibly low failure rate.
The phones maybe reliable, but it doesn't stop people from dropping them and breaking the screen, which is probably the most repaired part of a phone plus battery replacement. Apple are the worst, greed, greed and more greed.
As a shop manager I struggle with these types of situations too. All in all I find it best to be completely honest and transparent with the customer about cost vs. value. That's exactly what you did here and the customer chose to repair their bike. Sometimes customers REALLY like their bikes and don't want to seek a replacement. Good job and amazing work!
If I were to work in a shop I'd suggest mid drive kits. That way if it goes wrong there is always the prospect of simply converting it back to a normal pedal bike.
So almost 800 bucks for this repair plus a probable another few hundred for other repairs in the near future. Plus whatever the Trek shop charged for their somewhat half arsed efforts. I'm not sure what model that Cube is but let's say a brand new bike will cost around 3,500. This makes repair seem like good value. Ok, if she could get a decent second hand for less than a thousand then that would make sense. But you never actually know what you are buying second hand. It could be someone else's problems they're glad to get rid of that could cost another thousand to put right. Manufacturers really need to prevent water ingress so easily though. I had my last car for 8½ years. Bought it with 210,000 km on the clock. Put another 140,000 on it before the injectors went. Also the flywheel was wearing so another repair due shortly so I decided to move on. Not counting regular service and replacing tyres, brakes and regular parts that wear out, I spent less than 1,500 on repairs like a fuel pump and alternator and some other bits and pieces. E-bikes are ridiculously expensive to repair it seems. And I'm waiting on delivery of my first one next month.
@@tconnolly9820 100% agree. Further to your point, as an example I've got a cube that I commute on and I'm doing lots of adjustments to get it all fitted out just right for me and just run-in with all the weak bits replaced (rear wheel rebuilt, then freehub die,d which meant new hubs, then better quality fork parts, then pedals, light upgrade ..). If I had to drop a new motor in it, I would definitely and can imagine it's possible this customer is the same they found what works, replaced the weak parts and don't want the time, pain and costs associated with this process.
Shame on Bosch for making a motor where the PCB is glued in. Shamed on not selling spares. Having to apply to buy a motor spare ? Are they out of their minds? Thanks for this video, I'm never buying a bike with a Bosch motor in.
not just the motors, be aware of the batteries as well, bike manufacturers make them with proprietary firmware on the controller so that it's hard if not impossible to repair or replace cells, meaning that if anything breaks you can only go back to them to get it fixed (or not fix at all), there's also the non-standard battery mounting.
@@ashchbkv6965 Yep, manufacturers have become very invasive and encroaching on property rights. When I've bought a product, it's mine so I want to use it the way I want to and not having to play by the rules of the manufacturer...
the change in laws/regulations need to become much stricter on repairability and availability of all component parts. we're still running an old world model where cost is the driving force rather than resources. Maintain and repair ( the client had responsibility to look after their bike, the bike shop should have said go to an authorised dealer) should be the key moto going forward.
The EU is pushing hard for this. If it comes to pass fully (only certain regs have been voted on), it will make life easier even for those outside the EU. That said, the manufacturer must pust some heart into it... You can get a rear bearing for a 6 year old Metabo Drill - so it's possible.
This is the very reason why I spent so much time doing my homework. Mid drive was my go to due to so many post. Then everyone was complaining about them breaking and the cost to repair or replace. In the end went for a rear hub 3k watt and I'm so glad I did never had any issues. Only negative was weight but I'm used to it now and been able to cover massive distances on DIY 72v 21700 battery bank.
I wish your shop was near me. As an old engineer , it's heart warming to see that there are still people like yourself who have a professional and caring approach to there job and clearly take pride in there work. Excellent video, well represented. Hopefully Bosch will soon allow some service centres to be established in the UK.
What I really like about You besides Your knowledge and Your capability to solve problems systematically, is Your honesty and outspokenness. As a customer, this really gives one chance for an educated decision. Thus, a customer can decide whether he accepts the cost for a repair (e.g. because he likes his bikes) or he scraps it for economic reasons.
Never donated to any RUclipsr or streamer, but you definitely deserve it for all the things we get to learn and your pay-it-forward-initiative. Props to you!!
There was a comment regarding "spares" from e bike manufacturers. Bafang does actually provide replacement and repair parts, I just rebuilt a BBS02 for a customer all the bearings and seals were available for me as a US Bafang dealer. The controller is also easily available for these units. Even their CAN BUS motors have good parts support (though using a C961 display for calibration of the UART controller on M series bafang motors is annoying). Vendors such as Green Bike Kit may be useful to you guys and any people out there with bafang motors. Bosch is relatively alone in the e bike space as far as big companies that don't provide enough motor repair parts.
You and your customer did the right thing in my opinion......... The manufacturer and previous bike shops not so much. The water ingress to make that motor useless and the inability to rebuild the damage just continues to promote the consume and dispose mindset. I have bikes that are over forty years old and they still function as they should....yes I have spent money and time to service them as we'll as refurbishing and restoring them.
I feel you with this one. In our bike shop we have had similar experiences with finding spares, repairing electronics and such. Sometimes the hardest part is trying to explain to the customer that their bike repair is going to out weight the value of bike. I've quoted up repairs on E bikes to customers and been sworn at for taking the piss and being a scam artist. We are not. We've broken down the quote exactly as you have, contacted suppliers for cost of parts or sourced things from Ebay and the like to fix Bafang bikes. There is a little bit of blissful ignorance with an elevated cost of repair with an Ebike with consumers and I don't think its there fault necessary. Sorry sounds ranty. The video was brilliant and some good education into Ebikes.
People's reaction to this is understandable. A lot of these bikes were less than $1k new, and not many customers I've talked to have any conception of how fixing things works. "It's a bike, how hard could it be", LOL. I come from automotive. Automotive techs make the same as bike mechs in my area. Auto repair labor rate starts at $125 an hour. IMO, not a chance your no-name e-bike is worth fixing unless the fix is an hour of labor and that much in parts. I see tons of these things 1-2 years old for $300-500.
@@waysidetimes9226 The same applies to many consumer products. TVs, computers, hi-fi's, appliances...it's long been a known thing that that their low price precludes any thrift from repair. It's the time of the consumer item.
I had a similar situation with my eBike, a 6 year old Raleigh Redux iE. The Brose motor has now failed twice. The first time was under warranty, but I still had to pay $200 labor cost to get it repaired. The second failure was earlier this year an the warranty has obviously expired. I was able to open the motor myself and find the replacement part online. I think it's great to keep eBikes on the road for as long as possible. I really hope Brose and Bosch can improve the situation by making their eBike systems more serviceable both by design and by parts availability.
Excellent video! Respect to you and that customer. I always repair my bikes. I get quite attached to them and wouldn't entertain replacement if repair is an option. In the past I have spent way more than a bike is worth to get it back on the road. I find there is great variability in terms of whether a shop is willing to repair. Some just push replacement, particularly in the case of older bikes or if parts are tricky to get. Very few shops were willing to help when I restored my vintage Raleigh Esquire.
8:42 🙄 OMG the previous bike shop mixing up Hyperglide and Linkglide... I mean it's not rocket science but you have to know the parts you're working with. And Linkglide exists almost 3 years now. Props to Tye for spotting it!
Well, what a great discussion. I come down on the side of repair not replace, but then I am of a certain age, and my motorcycle is 53 years old and still running strong, tho my eMTB is only two years old with
I have virtually the same bike. I don't use it for mountain track work nor di I use it in the wet and 5 years on and without a service it's running fantastic. Despite this, I am a little shocked at how easily it seems water can enter the motor casing. I thought these were pretty much sealed. I also agree with other comments hare that Bosch should start listing and supplying all these motor parts.
I was a pioneer with the BionX system (now defunct) which was developed in French Canada. My conversion to my touring bike is so good that I will keep it until it can no longer be serviced. Spares are drying up, however I have managed to reverse engineer much of the system and I recently rebuilt the non available Lithium Ion battery pack. Repairs of this nature are very challenging and should not be tackled unless you know what you are doing.
You pose a conundrum! Ethically, you were absolutely right. Service logic, you were absolutely right. Business logic....you lost. However, you got the satisfaction of 'seeing the job done right'. As an electronic tech, I assure you that even if you got that PCB board working, it would most likely be intermittent at some point, and/or other problems would present. Remember, when dealing with FETs and (by solid state terms) high impedance circuits, intact copper board traces don't make or break the circuit function. *Leakage* does, and once road salts and acids have found their way in, the entire circuit is compromised. Technically, by business terms, you lost on fixing this. But overall, I think your operandi pays off. The owner will be back for service, and others, based on the PR you've invested in. Excellent job!
I think it would be awesome if every customer, upon purchase of a new bike, got a quick (10 mins or less) education session about major points of service to be aware of and likely costs of repair if neglected. Seems like this could have been prevented if the owner knew what to watch for. Not saying they have to know how to do the work themselves, but checking for bearing play and other basic signs of mechanical soundness is not difficult. Maybe I am biased because of my love for bikes, but people ought to know the basics of looking after their machines! In any case, good video and fair treatment as always, appreciate your honest approach to your work.
While I'd understand abandoning with that math, I'm glad the owner and you were willing to spend the time and money to repair. It's just the right thing to do. Now if we can just get the manufacturers to do a better job of making economical repair practical
6 месяцев назад+1
I think you treated the customer very fairly - it goes to show that one ignores servicing at one's cost! Well done!
Great video, a very good insight into the repair work involved. A truly honest overview and genuinely more than fair labour cost but above all a completely perfectly edited video, just the correct length to cover all the points without unnecessary waffle.
Polini from Italy and Freeflow from Scotland designed their motors to be fully serviceable with replaceable parts, I think I'd take a close look at those if I was looking for an e-bike. Have you seen either of those in the Mapdec workshop? When it comes to servicing there's apparently not much to choose between Bosch, Brose, Shimano et al, i.e. the big players that dominate the OEM market, but it seems like the costs can get out of hand too easily. It's off putting to say the least :|
excellent job, you guys rock. New forks 150 plus sattle post. If she rides around town with this and the rims are straight then they might as well rust shut. I just hope that the reality of having an electric bike for this person is clear and her path free.
I would love it if you would still send the bad motor to the pcb repair shop and try to figure out what was wrong with it. Document it well so in the future we might be able to fix the issue. But I would totally understand If you dont want to bear the costs for that.
Very difficult to diagnose. Diagnostics without knowing how the board works would chew up time. If you wanted to try anything, then do this ... Give it an inspection under a magnifing glass. Look for charring or discoloration or damaged parts. Give the board a thorough clean with rubbing alcohol, small brushes, q-tips, and cotton swaps. Another inspection. Give the board a try. If it doesn't work, oh well at least you tried.
@@joecanuck3751 Or just leakage between the traces...very hard if not impossible to see under a microscope even. You'd have to use a high-imp meter to measure for it...a massive waste of time.
Utterly fascinating video, and horrific at the same time. I bought a Giant Xplore +2 the month before covid lock down no.1. It has been great fun and has enabled me to cycle far further than I would otherwise. 3,500 miles in 4 years. Whilst strong I have minimal stamina, due to loads of surgery, and sometimes totally depend on my bike to get me home. Two years ago I was caught in a major rainstorm and shortly afterwards my display started misting up and after 30 mins was totally unreadable. Shortly after that the motor went into limp mode. Shortly after that the system packed up altogether. I was out on a club ride and we were about 5 miles from our campsite. It was a nightmare to get back. 27kg + gear. Two days later at my LBC I was advised that the display, controller, and motor are not waterproof AT ALL. The display was totally bust, as was the controller. The. Bike was 1 week out of warranty. Because my LBC had regularly serviced it they managed to get Giant to contribute 50% of the parts cost. The parts took about 2 months to turn up. My 2 wheeled paper weight sat forlornly in the garage. I have since tried to upgrade my battery to a 650 (from 500wh). Nope. Can only do it if you have the following years model. Not happy. Recently I have been delving into motor compatiblility, backwards compatibility, manufacturer specific designs. My conclusion is that if my motor packs up the bike is heading for the tip. I shall revert to using my old but fabulous pure pedal bikes. I am not shelling out another £2,500+ to get conned by dodgy manufacturers. The only alternative may be when some Chinese manufacturer starts building ‘compatible’ motors for half the price. Like your customer it is important to me to properly repair wherever possible.
I don’t know enough about the EU right to repair act but I want this kind of stuff to be included. I love that the costumer prioritised repair over replacement and I love that you made it possible
Bafang mid-drive units are the way to go. Reliable, cost effective and you can service them yourself, they will also fit most bike frames. Off the shelf bikes are super expensive, you are limited to getting them serviced at the shop and when they go wrong, you are in a difficult position. At least if mine packs up I can shove the old crank back on my bike whilst I sort the problem.
@@C0NR098 they are great. ive done 5k miles on mine in the last year and still going strong. that includes travelling 12 miles each way to work in Scottish winter!
That's what Bafang does. You can order individual parts for like $25. Bearings, seals, gaskets, sensors, controller, nylon gear, main gear, freewheel etc. Of course you can't do that as a reputable bike shop, but my BBS02 used to cost me $100 per 10,000km.
That's why I build my own ebikes,parts are very easy to get at very good value ,built my own bike with Halo wheels and nice other parts for less than 1500 GBP ,10.000 miles and not a single problem
Does my Bosch motor require regular service? Bosch motors are not designed to be serviced and should only fixed if they start to fail. Bosch motors are not designed to be serviced and should only fixed if they start to fail. The motors are sealed for life and if kept dry will do in excess of 50,000 miles (80,000km) without problem. From Ebike motor centre. If kept dry. How is that possible in the UK?
There’s many things you can say about Bosch, and many have merit. But at the same time, the customer also needs to service their motor. You can’t run a bike into ground and then act surprised when it dies. However, Bosch should make these fixes possible because these customers do exist! Great job, mate. Love this channel
So so interesting as today I had the exact same conversation with my bike shop repairing my Bosch gen 2 motor on my Cannondale Moterra 2019! In the end also decided to replace the motor at cost here in CA of $881 just for the motor. This is the 3rd motor for the bike. First motor was 2 weeks out of warranty with bearing noise and Bosch graciously honored the warranty and provided a new motor. This time not so lucky! And just a few months earlier had all the bearings replaced at a cost of $500. Shop thinks it also was the PCB after riding through a single deep puddle! Bosch really needs to rethink how to allow more regular bike shops to do more extensive repairs instead of just selling more motors at $900 bucks a pop!!! Probably not the last one either for this bike. Crazy expensive ownership in my view for what is supposed to be one of the most reliable motors out there. Get it together Bosch!
It's always great to save a bike. Even if it costs an arm and a leg. When you love and enjoy your bike and it's mechanically perfectly fine still, why toss it in the skip for just cosmetic reasons? I love my bikes for the character they develop over the years with the parts and bits I added myself and the scratches they collected along the way. Also she has a brand new motor now which probably will last her a good while (with proper maintenance). Thumbs up for her decision and your help in this.
The spares unavailability for the pre built ebikes is one of the reasons I keep using bafang bbs kits , you can find every spare part for them and easily repair as a home mechanic, the downside is the waiting time for the parts fortunately I didn’t have to replace anything yet in 8000 kms
In this situation I would have a go at fixing the PCB myself. I've done a ton of board repair on audio electronics, so to me this would make an interesting challenge.
Great video. I think you did the right thing based on your customer's choice. There would have been no way of knowing the condition of the motor on a second hand bike. Now I know what's inside a bosh motor.
Had three motors under warranty from Bosch.Performance line bearings sell an outer seal to protect the bearing .Had no trouble for 3 years 2000 miles.👍
The first thing we were told when I did my fitters course in the RAF was preventative maintenance, can save yourself a fortune if applied to a bike ,vehicle etc.
I put my bike in the car and drove to Fordingbridge and got the Bosch repair centre there to have a look. My PCB was also toast due water ingress and unfortunately the motor was unsalvageable. So for less than £400 they fitted another reconditioned motor with new bearings, better water resistance and a guarantee. As a cycle shop, I would use these people on behalf of the customer knowing their warranty would cover you. I now have a gen 2 Bosch motor that goes well 😀
Always try to repair instead of throwing it away. But maybe this is because I enjoy repairing things...plus saving resources. In this context, companies should provide spares and access to them! Like the repairability index in France, but taking this to the next level, across Europe (and UK 😁)
This is exactly why i dont use bikes with integrated e bike motors. Instead i use mid drive kits. Like the bbs02' hd and recently the tongshen tsdz8. Especially for the bafang motors parts are plentiful and somewhat cheap. It does mean being open to your own diy repair but imo its part of it and not so difficult if you have decent bicycle building experience. Another thing i do is to spray exposed electrical areas inside the motors with conformal coating. The grease i use is mobil shc100 and i do tend to clean and regrease every year or so. So far ive had a bbs02 for 4years that yas over 10k miles with no issues other than a new plastic front case and a gasket or two upon reassembly. I use bosch cargo line daily also for work and have had issues with pawl slip on multiple motors in the past. Im not convinced bosch motors are all that great apart from the software side were they really have managed to make it feel seamless.
Yes sometimes it's worth going that little bit extra to keep a customer happy (even though it can cost you extra time/energy/money). You will find your good deed will come back a little further down the line.. .. and you can sleep easier... Good vid : )
Really enjoy these videos. It’s important to try and fix, not throw away. Surely companies can assist, by offering more spare parts. This will underpin longevity in the overall industry and potentially improve profitability, employment/training/innovation, down/up stream distribution, extended product life cycles….🙏
500th like even though I don't own any eBike but this was interesting with the lack of alternatives. Sadly, Bosch should have had a PCB you can buy for $50 but they won't allow you that option. You did the correct thing here as your choices were limited and the longer view was clearly replacement. Always impressed by the thought process.
Talking of preventative maintenance does anyone know why the saddle on my flowtron dropper post is wobbly? Great video. I put more than a grand into keeping my 2016 specialized turbo s ebike alive...and still going 6000usd in 2016😮...I didn't pay that found it dying and bought for 2kEur. I think a few came to Europe as promotional items or flagship items in Specialized dealers.
Hard to believe it was ridden to that state - we all ride stuff that might have a bit of an issue starting, but that must have been a mess for a long time!!
Funny story which happened to my Stromer 45 km/h bike: they wanted to replace the whole motor for about 1200€ because of two faulted bearings. I only found a service center in the Netherlands who would open the motor for bearing replacement
I have the same Bosch motor on my ebike and it was helpful to learn a little about servicing it. I feel like Bosch intentionally obsolete their products, and provide minimal service options, the recent change to the "Smart System" the new plug does not allow any backward compatibility for the charger, battery, etc. which obsoletes everything I already have and they didn't provide any adapter or conversion options. This left me thinking my next ebike won't have anything made by Bosch on it.
I think what you charged for the labour aligns with the normal service. However, considering the high level of expertise and equipment you guys provide, it is a bargain for the customer. good on you.
I suspect that the motor controller could be replaced with an external generic motor controller with Bafang display, thumb throttle and PAS sensor. Bosch would not approve. With Bafang motors, even the internal motor controllers for the BBS-HD are readily available.
I just had my first ebike problem over the weekend and it left me puzzled. Small issue that is overblown. After nearly 8000 km, apparently the sensor cable came loose off the motor. I tried re-attaching it, went for a ride, it showed soft fault instead of hard fault. Then I realized that I broke 1 of the 4 pins inside sensor port port. Fazua told me the only option is to sent the motor unit back to them and it'll cost around 90-130 €. The pin that broke off is probably 0.05 grams and it costs me that much? Even with premium postage, over 50 bucks to replace a modular port? 100% my responsibility to forget to follow the manual, but the design of the plug is deceptive and anyone could make the same mistake. The plug is round like a speaker jack (or 5520 DC port) and one can think that there are only a negative and positive nodes inside. Although, there are actually embossed arrows on both the cable and the plug, both are very faint and not colored (zero contrast). I noticed them after pin break off. One can easily make a squared-shape plug, hinting at the mechnic / user that there is a right way to connect it. Not only the product design is questionable, the choice of exclusive repair at their own workshop is baffling. Funny how they have "tiered system" dealers, certified and premium, but anything happens to the motor, they have to post it to Fazua HQ workshop.
Nice vid, well explained and great to clearly see the customer kept informed of everything along the way. If this was my bike, regardless of the condition, I’d want to know all the options in order to make the decision 👍
I'll never buy a factory built ebike again. My first ebike was a haibike full suspension bike with a yamaha motor. The bike itself was fantastic until the motor stopped working and gave an error code on the display. I contacted the store where I purchased the bike from which was an online store called cycle republic, only to find out it didn't exist as a store anymore. I was told to take it to halfords since they were the owners of cycle republic. After taking it to halfords and several promises to fix the bike which went on for months, I eventually ran out of patience with halfords and to cut a long story short, I got a full refund for the bike. I used this money to build myself a full suspension ebike on a vitus sommet frame with better components. Im using the bafang bbs02b motor with a custom made battery.The total cost of the bike was less than I paid for the haibike. I now have an ebike with an unbelievably reliable motor with readily available parts that I can fully service myself. I also now have the option of upgrading the motor or removing it completely and using it as an ordinary bike. You can't do any these with a factory built ebike.
I own a Tongsheng motor with torque sensor. Actually two motors because I swap parts between them. All parts are available on Aliexpress for fair price. A controller is 32£. Yes, motor breaks down but I can fix it myself for a low cost. And it's not complicated. I'm from Sweden but wrote price in pounds.
@stonehill27 My son has the tsdz2 500w version on his bike. Personally, I'm not too keen on them as I find them too flimsy. Everything is literally held together with circlips. The torque sensor works OK, but it's made of garbage and develops too much play on the axle and main gear. You can add 3 extra bearings to secure the axle a bit, 2 on the non-drive side, and 1 where the oil seal should be in the chainring on the drive side. I don't know if the newer B version is any better. I personally prefer the bafang as they're so reliable. My motors approaching 17000 miles, and I've done a full bearing replacement twice, minus the thrust bearings and needle bearings, and the motor still works like a dream.
I don't want a eBike yet but got a Gudereit trekking with Pinion gearbox leased since a year now and because that gearbox is in the middle you could easily fit in a rear hub motor later and put the battery under the rack or into the frame triangle; Mahle (another car supplier like Bosch, Brose and Continental) does such a system but sadly doesn't seem to offer that as an upgrade kit ☹
I would probably of got it fixed. They still have their bike and it has a new motor with 2 year warranty same as if they would’ve bought a new bike but cheaper. If you split it into two it’s only £300 per year, that’s not too bad.
Excellent good for you for subsidizing the repair cost and keeping it out of landfill! I think repairability should be a big factor in purchase decision… can it be repaired? What do those repairs cost? Are bike shops even allowed to repair it?
It does seem very time generous. From bike to stand running a diagnostic, dropping the motor out, cleaning stripping it, emailing several companies looking for help or advice, then deciding it’s not worth the effort, contacting and dealing/emailing Bosch Support and ordering a new battery. Then fitting, a new gear cable, running through diagnostics again I assume to give customer a copy, drawing up the bill and test ride for £70.00?
There are things in this video we wouldn’t usually do. The motor was a gonna the first time I looked at it, but I made the video to evidence my experience really. To rebuild a motor is usually £200 if it’s all electrically sound.
@@Mapdec Tbh i did think that might be a possibility. Anyhow more great content, i like these real life job videos that most bikes shops are coming across, we're pretty much (customer lead) all eBikes now. Not all of us, well certainly not us deal with 4-5£ carbon frames every day or even ever, apart from my own. Top banana!
Always seems designers/engineers never thought that putting the motor right where it’s going to get drenched by the front wheel throwing water onto it when it rains was a bad idea, add in the motors don’t seem to be sealed that well, and then throw circuit boards in as well, it’s always going to end badly tbh
Always do what you did . . . try to fix, investigate options, replace parts if possible and available, if can't be fixed then buy new component but only if owner is happy with bike's performance and doesn't want to upgrade to latest tech or design
Wish I had you guys near me as my LBS! Thank you for the video, very informative. Bosch and Shimano are terrible for repairability, totally agree with that. Thankfully Brose/spesh motors seem to be a bit better supported with lots of spares and third party specialists. But I'm not sure I would give Apple any credit for repairability - they were forced to! Time for ebike motors to get the same regulations I think. Scrapping a bike because of the motor should never happen.
I have a fulgur mula from berkshire cycles that has a polini motor which is totally serviceable and all parts available. I've owned all motors and have to say I went for it purely because if the support from polini but its actually a very good motor too.
great work guys, this is a tough one if the bike was cosmetically in good condition it might have been worth it but this time it was borderline probably not worth doing. damn shame these big boy companies don't like us repairing stuff and would rather we throw stuff away and upgrade all of the time
We can all agree less stuff needs to go to landfill. You've done the right thing, you gave the customer the options and happily she opted to repair the bike instead of slinging it away and buying new. I think it's extremely poor that the motor manufacturers don't supply full rebuild kits for these things. It stinks of profiteering that you're forced to buy a new motor. What we all need is for Hope to start making motors and supply every spare part for them for the next 20 years 🤣 Here's an idea, CNC plates which take a normal BB to convert scrapped e-bikes back to normal bikes!
Good outcome and a(nother) great video. But wow, I really struggle with the proprietary ebike thing. Having to negotiate a replacement? That's insane. Are they worried you are going to send it to Russia or Iran? I've been really happy with a CYC Photon conversion - makes the Bosch look like a waste of space. Durability for the Photon is unknown, but the known durability of the Bosch and other brands isn't very good anyway. And at least if my motor fails the original bike is as good as it ever was and isn't landfill.
I'm surprised China (who seem to copy everything) haven't already tapped into the replacement motor pcb market. There must be tons of dead motors out there that could be back in service with just a pcb swap out.
Wish Bosch would make it a bit easier to just buy a replacement motor. I'm definitely keeping my eye open for a gen 4 performance speed motor, for when mine eventually fails. I'm doing my first Cues swap here at the shop and when reading about the parts, they say only compatible with LinkGlide. Maybe the mechanic was new and just saw 9 speed and figured it all works together.
Guessing they got a few years out of that, so not all bad. They will likely come back to you as well so will now get it fully checked as needed anyway, glad it wasn't wasted. As to the resale, it doesn't cover having a new motor with two-year warranty, which you generally cannot get second hand.
'Guessing they got a few years out of that' - not necessarily. I have a Trek e-bike which I have had serviced regularly by an approved dealer and the Bosch motor failed after just over two years and 5,000 miles on generally good surfaces.. I'm told that mechanically it is sound but the electronics have failed. As mentioned in the video, there is no replacement so it's a new motor for £700.
It isn't clear on the video, or photos on Google, but are the bearings behind a lip seal or are they just relying on shields to keep water and dirt out? If there are just rubber shields then they won't keep rain water and dust out, they're just to keep larger particles and some indirect spray out, and out of the box it would only be on borrowed time before it dies
@BramBiesiekierski that’s definitely an option & something I’d look at, but as you’d need a conversion mount, bafang motor, battery & controller, so once fitted would it be much cheaper for a shop to supply than a slot in oem motor?
Great video very informative thank you. However £70 labour for all that work seems unbelievably cheap. I am guessing any other bike shop would of charged substantially more. Given that and its overall condition, I think the bike should of been stripped for second hand parts and then scrapped.
Seeing as linkglide uses bog standard 11 speed shimano chains, should we assume the other shop fitted a 9 or 10 speed HG chain? The "linkglide" branded chains are different in model number only. Officially compatible with any other shi 11 speed drivetrain.
Just wondering if eBay replacement would even be viable. From forums admittedly my understanding is the Bosch motors will spit the dummy for minor things like wrong gear ratios if you change your chainring etc Old motor would be stuck on the old bikes wheel size and gear ratios which I have heard only Bosch can change but don't... from what I have read.
Another excellent video. Shimano do list that both Linkglide and 11 speed Hyperglide chains are compatible with the 9/10/11 speed Linkglide cassettes. I do wonder if the Linkglide chains would be a better match for the cassettes as their teeth profile is different to HG cassettes, why else would they make it when the 11 speed HG chains already exist?
Got an Orbea Gain to save on petrol,. The controller failed just under 3 years. Warranty is two years. Will cost £750 to repair because the controller is built into the battery. The bike has done 6000 miles, which means the bike has cost me £12.50 for every 100 miles. This isn't including the cost of the bike, chains, pads, free hubs, etc. it's cheaper driving
But no road-tax, insurance, or parking fees, eh? Ordinary non-E-bikes are cheaper in the long run, and if you stay away from the newer race-developed components and frame materials - serviceable with a minimum of special tools. I’ve been riding,and tinkering with bikes for sixty years. Simpler design that can be relied upon, is always better.
In that case replacing the motor with a new one seems to be the most logical choice. However, I was told that if worn out the wheel (i.e. the brake strip) on my Brompton I will need to buy a whole rear wheel including the internal hub gear which is the major cost of the rear wheel. When I asked if the rear hub could not be detached from the old wheel and put on the new wheel, so I would only buy the rim instead of the whole wheel, the answer was no. Later, I figured out that actually this could be done but some bikes shops finds it more profitable to just replace the whole wheel instead of salvaging the what can be salvaged due to the time they need to spend on it.
If Bosch is not going to support their motors, they ought to have a 'rebuild/refurb' service that would allow people to avoid throwing away their injured motors.
They do both of those things, as is mentioned in this video. What they don't do is sell drive units to end users, only to OEMs.
Bosch are actually one of if not the best for this. They even sell a DIY service kit for the first two gens of their motors. Which is the left half of the motor for about £100 I think it was. Bought one and fitted it on a bike of mine. Not childs play to fit but certainly doable for most. Can't praise Bosch enough for this type of thing.
@@tombowman4489 how is servicing it yourself? I've done lots of work on dirtbikes and cars and this all looks like stuff I could do, but I'm not sure if I'll run in to dead ends trying to get a replacement bearing or something then have shops refuse to touch it if I've opened it
@@gregmossed it's a kit Bosch sell for the Gen 2(possibly gen 1 also). It comes with everything you need apart from the locking tool to open the motor. It's basically replacing the whole one side of the motor which includes a few gears and such. It needs to be done with quite methodically with a high level of hygiene and precision but overall was crazy difficult. There is a main drive cylinder they tell you not to handle but mine was rusty so needed a bit of love. They don't give you a new one of these but I've heard there is a company who makes titanium copies of them if you want to upgrade or yours is a bit worse for wear. Unfortunately, I do not think they make such a kit for the very latest Bosch motors though.
Got be honest bought my first middrive needed battery few cables and a display ,contacted bosch as if was a haibike sl29 with probs the first performance motor wS from 2014 the bike is absolutely beautiful has yamaha look allover it white yellow black grey lil orange but sprayed like a artist the way ithe colours twist around the bars everything on it highend and is still parts been used today on bikes i first went to ebay were it started a bidding war between 2 germans 😂😂 was only liokin a battery but i got in contact with bosch now remember never had a middrive before sent them a few vids they asked for they sent me a diagnostic kit that plugged in stayed on and sent back to them they were surprised how good the motor was sent me a full service kit and bits i might need in the future got me the correct battery in white and the original display all if i promised to sell the bike back to them when im selling or a swap ,blown away by this thanks bosch is all i can say 😎
Me? I love that the customer wanted to fix their bike even though it may not have made great business sense. He or she liked it, it was theirs and sometimes that is all it takes. 'Right to repair' absolutely should be a hot topic for all industry around the globe. There's no excuse in the world against it.... man I love your thoroughness and skill level. 2nd to none.
I hate that she didn’t take better care of her bike. A dirty bike is a bike that wears out faster.
Buy a cheap Chinese fast e bike for 750 when it breaks buy another one simple
Excellent video once again! Shows that right to repair is a necessary movement.
Yes indeed!
The Bosch frame mounting system with that unusual flange makes it impossible to swap or repair with a different brand motor. Given that a Tongsheng ebike motor (about $300USD) *retails* for 1/3 the cost of the Bosch motor *wholesale* shop price and the fragile nature of the Bosch, the Bosch system seems designed to extract revenue from unsuspecting bikers and shops. With no mounting standard or cost control of spares, the system is not "repairable" except by extraordinary means they way you've done.
I had E-bike based on a Brose system. One day some bastard stole my computer aka control unit. After i got a replacement off the eBay it just popped error and refused to work. Same model of computer. For same motor etc. Just different serial number. Turns out Brose just decided to kill off any way to replace parts if the original got stolen or died. You must have matching serial numbers, else nothing would work.
To fix this, you must send the whole system, including the battery, to an authorized service center. And since the new computer was purchased off ebay there's a chance your repair still won't be authorized by Brose.
No more e-bikes for me. This is totally anti-consumer. We need to add e-bikes to right to repair bill.
programmed obsolescence has made its way to e-bike?
Whoaa...before comments go any further on this post, bear in mind that control modules are almost always needing to be matched to their operating circuit to function. This is for a number of reasons. Designed obsolescence is very real, but not necessarily in this case.
I can't stand that companies serialize components. You can usually flash the firmware so that the serial number will match everything else, BUT that also usually requires their hardware and software to do. They probably do that to deter theft, but at the same time makes repairs challenging to do.
@@madmax2069 it’s encrypted?
@@kalijasin maybe
Commenting about your comment at 07:36. Apple did make some assemblies available at exorbitant prices to discourage repair and encourage buying a new one. And if Bosch were to start selling the pcb assembly at 350£ let's say it would just do the same thing. Companies just do that to look like they are with right to repair when in actuality they are not.
If you’ve ever opened up some laptop, phone devices you can understand why not providing component level spares is actually protecting customers from dodgy repairs.
iPhones for example have an incredibly low failure rate.
The phones maybe reliable, but it doesn't stop people from dropping them and breaking the screen, which is probably the most repaired part of a phone plus battery replacement. Apple are the worst, greed, greed and more greed.
@@dominicbritt Except that the battery is an actual wear part and inevitable requires replacement at some point in time.
As a shop manager I struggle with these types of situations too. All in all I find it best to be completely honest and transparent with the customer about cost vs. value. That's exactly what you did here and the customer chose to repair their bike. Sometimes customers REALLY like their bikes and don't want to seek a replacement. Good job and amazing work!
Good point...if you have a bike that's a good fit why then take an expensive punt on a replacement.
If I were to work in a shop I'd suggest mid drive kits. That way if it goes wrong there is always the prospect of simply converting it back to a normal pedal bike.
So almost 800 bucks for this repair plus a probable another few hundred for other repairs in the near future. Plus whatever the Trek shop charged for their somewhat half arsed efforts.
I'm not sure what model that Cube is but let's say a brand new bike will cost around 3,500.
This makes repair seem like good value.
Ok, if she could get a decent second hand for less than a thousand then that would make sense.
But you never actually know what you are buying second hand. It could be someone else's problems they're glad to get rid of that could cost another thousand to put right.
Manufacturers really need to prevent water ingress so easily though.
I had my last car for 8½ years. Bought it with 210,000 km on the clock. Put another 140,000 on it before the injectors went. Also the flywheel was wearing so another repair due shortly so I decided to move on. Not counting regular service and replacing tyres, brakes and regular parts that wear out, I spent less than 1,500 on repairs like a fuel pump and alternator and some other bits and pieces. E-bikes are ridiculously expensive to repair it seems. And I'm waiting on delivery of my first one next month.
@@tconnolly9820 100% agree. Further to your point, as an example I've got a cube that I commute on and I'm doing lots of adjustments to get it all fitted out just right for me and just run-in with all the weak bits replaced (rear wheel rebuilt, then freehub die,d which meant new hubs, then better quality fork parts, then pedals, light upgrade ..). If I had to drop a new motor in it, I would definitely and can imagine it's possible this customer is the same they found what works, replaced the weak parts and don't want the time, pain and costs associated with this process.
Shame on Bosch for making a motor where the PCB is glued in. Shamed on not selling spares. Having to apply to buy a motor spare ? Are they out of their minds? Thanks for this video, I'm never buying a bike with a Bosch motor in.
not just the motors, be aware of the batteries as well, bike manufacturers make them with proprietary firmware on the controller so that it's hard if not impossible to repair or replace cells, meaning that if anything breaks you can only go back to them to get it fixed (or not fix at all), there's also the non-standard battery mounting.
You don’t have to buy an e-bike 😉😃🫵
Never buy anything with a Bosch motor, they are shite.
@@Q96500 That is the simple solution, cost effective!
@@ashchbkv6965 Yep, manufacturers have become very invasive and encroaching on property rights.
When I've bought a product, it's mine so I want to use it the way I want to and not having to play by the rules of the manufacturer...
Paying it forward so you can keep doing the right thing 😊
Thank you 🙏
Wow I was thinkng this would be about a grand. Your labour charges were phenominally reasonable!
Because this video is monetised. Still reasonable, though.
the change in laws/regulations need to become much stricter on repairability and availability of all component parts. we're still running an old world model where cost is the driving force rather than resources. Maintain and repair ( the client had responsibility to look after their bike, the bike shop should have said go to an authorised dealer) should be the key moto going forward.
The EU is pushing hard for this. If it comes to pass fully (only certain regs have been voted on), it will make life easier even for those outside the EU.
That said, the manufacturer must pust some heart into it... You can get a rear bearing for a 6 year old Metabo Drill - so it's possible.
this but not just repairability, but also all those proprietary standards (or non-standard)
@@smellysam Yep it's possible... I have had audio equipment from the 70s/80s that was still repairable because parts were available.
@@QoraxAudio and the schematic on the inside of the cover - as it should be.
This is the very reason why I spent so much time doing my homework. Mid drive was my go to due to so many post. Then everyone was complaining about them breaking and the cost to repair or replace. In the end went for a rear hub 3k watt and I'm so glad I did never had any issues. Only negative was weight but I'm used to it now and been able to cover massive distances on DIY 72v 21700 battery bank.
I wish your shop was near me. As an old engineer , it's heart warming to see that there are still people like yourself who have a professional and caring approach to there job and clearly take pride in there work. Excellent video, well represented. Hopefully Bosch will soon allow some service centres to be established in the UK.
Thank you 🙏
What I really like about You besides Your knowledge and Your capability to solve problems systematically, is Your honesty and outspokenness. As a customer, this really gives one chance for an educated decision. Thus, a customer can decide whether he accepts the cost for a repair (e.g. because he likes his bikes) or he scraps it for economic reasons.
🙏
Never donated to any RUclipsr or streamer, but you definitely deserve it for all the things we get to learn and your pay-it-forward-initiative. Props to you!!
I appreciate that!
There was a comment regarding "spares" from e bike manufacturers. Bafang does actually provide replacement and repair parts, I just rebuilt a BBS02 for a customer all the bearings and seals were available for me as a US Bafang dealer. The controller is also easily available for these units. Even their CAN BUS motors have good parts support (though using a C961 display for calibration of the UART controller on M series bafang motors is annoying).
Vendors such as Green Bike Kit may be useful to you guys and any people out there with bafang motors.
Bosch is relatively alone in the e bike space as far as big companies that don't provide enough motor repair parts.
£800 crikey... In the industrial world, the rule of thumb is 50%. If it costs more than 50% of the value to fix the item, they'll usually replace it.
More like 33%, you might want to look into getting the bike replaced. Motors are expensive to replace or get serviced.
In industrial world, necessity takes precedence over price if it's shutting down production.
The fully damaged of the Insurance doorstep is 40%.
That’s a previous-gen Bosch motor and unfortunately Bosch make them unbelievably expensive to replace.
Could have bought a used ebike for that money, could have bought an upgraded motor or better yet, bbshd.
You and your customer did the right thing in my opinion......... The manufacturer and previous bike shops not so much. The water ingress to make that motor useless and the inability to rebuild the damage just continues to promote the consume and dispose mindset. I have bikes that are over forty years old and they still function as they should....yes I have spent money and time to service them as we'll as refurbishing and restoring them.
I feel you with this one. In our bike shop we have had similar experiences with finding spares, repairing electronics and such. Sometimes the hardest part is trying to explain to the customer that their bike repair is going to out weight the value of bike. I've quoted up repairs on E bikes to customers and been sworn at for taking the piss and being a scam artist. We are not. We've broken down the quote exactly as you have, contacted suppliers for cost of parts or sourced things from Ebay and the like to fix Bafang bikes. There is a little bit of blissful ignorance with an elevated cost of repair with an Ebike with consumers and I don't think its there fault necessary. Sorry sounds ranty. The video was brilliant and some good education into Ebikes.
People's reaction to this is understandable. A lot of these bikes were less than $1k new, and not many customers I've talked to have any conception of how fixing things works. "It's a bike, how hard could it be", LOL.
I come from automotive. Automotive techs make the same as bike mechs in my area. Auto repair labor rate starts at $125 an hour. IMO, not a chance your no-name e-bike is worth fixing unless the fix is an hour of labor and that much in parts. I see tons of these things 1-2 years old for $300-500.
@@waysidetimes9226 The same applies to many consumer products. TVs, computers, hi-fi's, appliances...it's long been a known thing that that their low price precludes any thrift from repair.
It's the time of the consumer item.
I am not "accredited" to service Bosch motors but learnt about them by webinar during COVID 19 . I work on them confidently anyway now .
I had a similar situation with my eBike, a 6 year old Raleigh Redux iE. The Brose motor has now failed twice. The first time was under warranty, but I still had to pay $200 labor cost to get it repaired.
The second failure was earlier this year an the warranty has obviously expired. I was able to open the motor myself and find the replacement part online.
I think it's great to keep eBikes on the road for as long as possible. I really hope Brose and Bosch can improve the situation by making their eBike systems more serviceable both by design and by parts availability.
Excellent video! Respect to you and that customer. I always repair my bikes. I get quite attached to them and wouldn't entertain replacement if repair is an option. In the past I have spent way more than a bike is worth to get it back on the road. I find there is great variability in terms of whether a shop is willing to repair. Some just push replacement, particularly in the case of older bikes or if parts are tricky to get. Very few shops were willing to help when I restored my vintage Raleigh Esquire.
8:42 🙄 OMG the previous bike shop mixing up Hyperglide and Linkglide... I mean it's not rocket science but you have to know the parts you're working with. And Linkglide exists almost 3 years now. Props to Tye for spotting it!
What's ridiculous is that chains are not standardised, even within one manufacturer!
Well, what a great discussion. I come down on the side of repair not replace, but then I am of a certain age, and my motorcycle is 53 years old and still running strong, tho my eMTB is only two years old with
I have virtually the same bike. I don't use it for mountain track work nor di I use it in the wet and 5 years on and without a service it's running fantastic. Despite this, I am a little shocked at how easily it seems water can enter the motor casing. I thought these were pretty much sealed. I also agree with other comments hare that Bosch should start listing and supplying all these motor parts.
I was a pioneer with the BionX system (now defunct) which was developed in French Canada. My conversion to my touring bike is so good that I will keep it until it can no longer be serviced. Spares are drying up, however I have managed to reverse engineer much of the system and I recently rebuilt the non available Lithium Ion battery pack. Repairs of this nature are very challenging and should not be tackled unless you know what you are doing.
You pose a conundrum! Ethically, you were absolutely right. Service logic, you were absolutely right. Business logic....you lost. However, you got the satisfaction of 'seeing the job done right'.
As an electronic tech, I assure you that even if you got that PCB board working, it would most likely be intermittent at some point, and/or other problems would present. Remember, when dealing with FETs and (by solid state terms) high impedance circuits, intact copper board traces don't make or break the circuit function. *Leakage* does, and once road salts and acids have found their way in, the entire circuit is compromised.
Technically, by business terms, you lost on fixing this. But overall, I think your operandi pays off. The owner will be back for service, and others, based on the PR you've invested in.
Excellent job!
I think it would be awesome if every customer, upon purchase of a new bike, got a quick (10 mins or less) education session about major points of service to be aware of and likely costs of repair if neglected. Seems like this could have been prevented if the owner knew what to watch for. Not saying they have to know how to do the work themselves, but checking for bearing play and other basic signs of mechanical soundness is not difficult. Maybe I am biased because of my love for bikes, but people ought to know the basics of looking after their machines!
In any case, good video and fair treatment as always, appreciate your honest approach to your work.
Exactly why I stick with my bafang 750w home conversion, no issues after years of use and plenty of spares if I need any
While I'd understand abandoning with that math, I'm glad the owner and you were willing to spend the time and money to repair. It's just the right thing to do. Now if we can just get the manufacturers to do a better job of making economical repair practical
I think you treated the customer very fairly - it goes to show that one ignores servicing at one's cost! Well done!
More than fairly. Great service for sure
Great video, a very good insight into the repair work involved. A truly honest overview and genuinely more than fair labour cost but above all a completely perfectly edited video, just the correct length to cover all the points without unnecessary waffle.
Glad you enjoyed it
Polini from Italy and Freeflow from Scotland designed their motors to be fully serviceable with replaceable parts, I think I'd take a close look at those if I was looking for an e-bike. Have you seen either of those in the Mapdec workshop?
When it comes to servicing there's apparently not much to choose between Bosch, Brose, Shimano et al, i.e. the big players that dominate the OEM market, but it seems like the costs can get out of hand too easily. It's off putting to say the least :|
excellent job, you guys rock. New forks 150 plus sattle post. If she rides around town with this and the rims are straight then they might as well rust shut. I just hope that the reality of having an electric bike for this person is clear and her path free.
I would love it if you would still send the bad motor to the pcb repair shop and try to figure out what was wrong with it. Document it well so in the future we might be able to fix the issue. But I would totally understand If you dont want to bear the costs for that.
Very difficult to diagnose. Diagnostics without knowing how the board works would chew up time.
If you wanted to try anything, then do this ...
Give it an inspection under a magnifing glass. Look for charring or discoloration or damaged parts.
Give the board a thorough clean with rubbing alcohol, small brushes, q-tips, and cotton swaps.
Another inspection. Give the board a try. If it doesn't work, oh well at least you tried.
@@joecanuck3751 Or just leakage between the traces...very hard if not impossible to see under a microscope even. You'd have to use a high-imp meter to measure for it...a massive waste of time.
I bet "buy it fix it" on here would be able to get that circuit board working again. He is a wizard fixing boards.
You presume too much. I bet Fred can jump to the Moon.
Utterly fascinating video, and horrific at the same time.
I bought a Giant Xplore +2 the month before covid lock down no.1.
It has been great fun and has enabled me to cycle far further than I would otherwise. 3,500 miles in 4 years. Whilst strong I have minimal stamina, due to loads of surgery, and sometimes totally depend on my bike to get me home.
Two years ago I was caught in a major rainstorm and shortly afterwards my display started misting up and after 30 mins was totally unreadable. Shortly after that the motor went into limp mode. Shortly after that the system packed up altogether. I was out on a club ride and we were about 5 miles from our campsite. It was a nightmare to get back. 27kg + gear.
Two days later at my LBC I was advised that the display, controller, and motor are not waterproof AT ALL. The display was totally bust, as was the controller. The. Bike was 1 week out of warranty. Because my LBC had regularly serviced it they managed to get Giant to contribute 50% of the parts cost. The parts took about 2 months to turn up. My 2 wheeled paper weight sat forlornly in the garage.
I have since tried to upgrade my battery to a 650 (from 500wh). Nope. Can only do it if you have the following years model. Not happy.
Recently I have been delving into motor compatiblility, backwards compatibility, manufacturer specific designs.
My conclusion is that if my motor packs up the bike is heading for the tip. I shall revert to using my old but fabulous pure pedal bikes. I am not shelling out another £2,500+ to get conned by dodgy manufacturers.
The only alternative may be when some Chinese manufacturer starts building ‘compatible’ motors for half the price. Like your customer it is important to me to properly repair wherever possible.
This a sadly familiar story.
@@Mapdec The e-bike industry will eventually kill their own product. The LBS are fighting against the tide.
Sounds like there's an underserved market for e-bike motor rebuilds. Well done!
nice to see its not just chucked on the scrap heap , the bike repir shop is honest ...well done
I don’t know enough about the EU right to repair act but I want this kind of stuff to be included. I love that the costumer prioritised repair over replacement and I love that you made it possible
I think that’s what puts me off e-bikes the motors and the cost and servicing that I can’t do it myself
just buy brushless hub motor.they dont require maintance and if brake all compatible with each other and very cheap to buy
If you're willing to pedal and sweat, you save a lot of money and hassles.
@@michaelclements4664 And having more fun while pedaling (most of the times lol.) At least you're not cheating yourself by doing the real work.
Bafang mid-drive units are the way to go. Reliable, cost effective and you can service them yourself, they will also fit most bike frames. Off the shelf bikes are super expensive, you are limited to getting them serviced at the shop and when they go wrong, you are in a difficult position. At least if mine packs up I can shove the old crank back on my bike whilst I sort the problem.
@@C0NR098 they are great. ive done 5k miles on mine in the last year and still going strong. that includes travelling 12 miles each way to work in Scottish winter!
Respect for not charging much to actually strip motor out, sort a replacement and refit, I was expecting the final bill to be higher.
That's what Bafang does. You can order individual parts for like $25. Bearings, seals, gaskets, sensors, controller, nylon gear, main gear, freewheel etc.
Of course you can't do that as a reputable bike shop, but my BBS02 used to cost me $100 per 10,000km.
Same with Tongsheng motor, they offer all parts. Even housing and individual small screws, springs etc.
That's why I build my own ebikes,parts are very easy to get at very good value ,built my own bike with Halo wheels and nice other parts for less than 1500 GBP ,10.000 miles and not a single problem
Does my Bosch motor require regular service? Bosch motors are not designed to be serviced and should only fixed if they start to fail.
Bosch motors are not designed to be serviced and should only fixed if they start to fail. The motors are sealed for life and if kept dry will do in excess of 50,000 miles (80,000km) without problem.
From Ebike motor centre.
If kept dry.
How is that possible in the UK?
I don't regret buying a tong sheng tsdz2b at all - cheap, all spares available, whats not to like?
Pinion MGU uses an oil bath, which is supposed to keep water out. Will see how well that goes for me.
Thanks!
Thank you kindly 🙏
There’s many things you can say about Bosch, and many have merit. But at the same time, the customer also needs to service their motor. You can’t run a bike into ground and then act surprised when it dies. However, Bosch should make these fixes possible because these customers do exist! Great job, mate. Love this channel
The thing is where did all the "balls" go???????
@@alanpatterson2759 That’s a great question. They’re certainly not soft! I’d have expected to see them
@@MarioGoatse well it's a well sealed unit! the amount of debris doesn't equate to the loss of ball bearings. The broken cages were there?
You forgot the new chain on the bill mate!
They kept the old one.
@@naromsky No, it wasn't a match to the tooth profiles, and the cause of the "gears slipping". Watch the vid again...
@@stephensaines7100 I didn't say that.
So so interesting as today I had the exact same conversation with my bike shop repairing my Bosch gen 2 motor on my Cannondale Moterra 2019! In the end also decided to replace the motor at cost here in CA of $881 just for the motor. This is the 3rd motor for the bike. First motor was 2 weeks out of warranty with bearing noise and Bosch graciously honored the warranty and provided a new motor. This time not so lucky! And just a few months earlier had all the bearings replaced at a cost of $500. Shop thinks it also was the PCB after riding through a single deep puddle! Bosch really needs to rethink how to allow more regular bike shops to do more extensive repairs instead of just selling more motors at $900 bucks a pop!!! Probably not the last one either for this bike. Crazy expensive ownership in my view for what is supposed to be one of the most reliable motors out there. Get it together Bosch!
Sometimes I wonder why we don’t all get motorbikes instead.
It's always great to save a bike. Even if it costs an arm and a leg. When you love and enjoy your bike and it's mechanically perfectly fine still, why toss it in the skip for just cosmetic reasons? I love my bikes for the character they develop over the years with the parts and bits I added myself and the scratches they collected along the way. Also she has a brand new motor now which probably will last her a good while (with proper maintenance). Thumbs up for her decision and your help in this.
The spares unavailability for the pre built ebikes is one of the reasons I keep using bafang bbs kits , you can find every spare part for them and easily repair as a home mechanic, the downside is the waiting time for the parts fortunately I didn’t have to replace anything yet in 8000 kms
In this situation I would have a go at fixing the PCB myself.
I've done a ton of board repair on audio electronics, so to me this would make an interesting challenge.
Great video. I think you did the right thing based on your customer's choice. There would have been no way of knowing the condition of the motor on a second hand bike. Now I know what's inside a bosh motor.
Had three motors under warranty from Bosch.Performance line bearings sell an outer seal to protect the bearing .Had no trouble for 3 years 2000 miles.👍
The first thing we were told when I did my fitters course in the RAF was preventative maintenance, can save yourself a fortune if applied to a bike ,vehicle etc.
I put my bike in the car and drove to Fordingbridge and got the Bosch repair centre there to have a look. My PCB was also toast due water ingress and unfortunately the motor was unsalvageable. So for less than £400 they fitted another reconditioned motor with new bearings, better water resistance and a guarantee. As a cycle shop, I would use these people on behalf of the customer knowing their warranty would cover you. I now have a gen 2 Bosch motor that goes well 😀
What is the name of this place please?
Ebikemotorcentre?
Always try to repair instead of throwing it away. But maybe this is because I enjoy repairing things...plus saving resources. In this context, companies should provide spares and access to them! Like the repairability index in France, but taking this to the next level, across Europe (and UK 😁)
That was a very good video. Thank you from the US.
Nice job and really think you are doing a great service for the e-bike community.
Very nice!
This is exactly why i dont use bikes with integrated e bike motors. Instead i use mid drive kits. Like the bbs02' hd and recently the tongshen tsdz8. Especially for the bafang motors parts are plentiful and somewhat cheap. It does mean being open to your own diy repair but imo its part of it and not so difficult if you have decent bicycle building experience. Another thing i do is to spray exposed electrical areas inside the motors with conformal coating. The grease i use is mobil shc100 and i do tend to clean and regrease every year or so. So far ive had a bbs02 for 4years that yas over 10k miles with no issues other than a new plastic front case and a gasket or two upon reassembly. I use bosch cargo line daily also for work and have had issues with pawl slip on multiple motors in the past. Im not convinced bosch motors are all that great apart from the software side were they really have managed to make it feel seamless.
Ive done a diy build on voodoo Marassa hybrid bike. Bafang bbs01b. Will try abd stay away from rain. Will I need to service it and how often?
Yes sometimes it's worth going that little bit extra to keep a customer happy (even though it can cost you extra time/energy/money). You will find your good deed will come back a little further down the line.. .. and you can sleep easier... Good vid : )
Really enjoy these videos. It’s important to try and fix, not throw away. Surely companies can assist, by offering more spare parts. This will underpin longevity in the overall industry and potentially improve profitability, employment/training/innovation, down/up stream distribution, extended product life cycles….🙏
Thank you. The only way it will change is if one company starts doing it and we all start buying it.
500th like even though I don't own any eBike but this was interesting with the lack of alternatives. Sadly, Bosch should have had a PCB you can buy for $50 but they won't allow you that option. You did the correct thing here as your choices were limited and the longer view was clearly replacement. Always impressed by the thought process.
Talking of preventative maintenance does anyone know why the saddle on my flowtron dropper post is wobbly? Great video. I put more than a grand into keeping my 2016 specialized turbo s ebike alive...and still going 6000usd in 2016😮...I didn't pay that found it dying and bought for 2kEur. I think a few came to Europe as promotional items or flagship items in Specialized dealers.
Hard to believe it was ridden to that state - we all ride stuff that might have a bit of an issue starting, but that must have been a mess for a long time!!
Funny story which happened to my Stromer 45 km/h bike: they wanted to replace the whole motor for about 1200€ because of two faulted bearings. I only found a service center in the Netherlands who would open the motor for bearing replacement
I have the same Bosch motor on my ebike and it was helpful to learn a little about servicing it. I feel like Bosch intentionally obsolete their products, and provide minimal service options, the recent change to the "Smart System" the new plug does not allow any backward compatibility for the charger, battery, etc. which obsoletes everything I already have and they didn't provide any adapter or conversion options. This left me thinking my next ebike won't have anything made by Bosch on it.
I think what you charged for the labour aligns with the normal service. However, considering the high level of expertise and equipment you guys provide, it is a bargain for the customer. good on you.
I suspect that the motor controller could be replaced with an external generic motor controller with Bafang display, thumb throttle and PAS sensor. Bosch would not approve. With Bafang motors, even the internal motor controllers for the BBS-HD are readily available.
I just had my first ebike problem over the weekend and it left me puzzled. Small issue that is overblown.
After nearly 8000 km, apparently the sensor cable came loose off the motor. I tried re-attaching it, went for a ride, it showed soft fault instead of hard fault. Then I realized that I broke 1 of the 4 pins inside sensor port port. Fazua told me the only option is to sent the motor unit back to them and it'll cost around 90-130 €. The pin that broke off is probably 0.05 grams and it costs me that much? Even with premium postage, over 50 bucks to replace a modular port?
100% my responsibility to forget to follow the manual, but the design of the plug is deceptive and anyone could make the same mistake. The plug is round like a speaker jack (or 5520 DC port) and one can think that there are only a negative and positive nodes inside. Although, there are actually embossed arrows on both the cable and the plug, both are very faint and not colored (zero contrast). I noticed them after pin break off. One can easily make a squared-shape plug, hinting at the mechnic / user that there is a right way to connect it.
Not only the product design is questionable, the choice of exclusive repair at their own workshop is baffling. Funny how they have "tiered system" dealers, certified and premium, but anything happens to the motor, they have to post it to Fazua HQ workshop.
Nice vid, well explained and great to clearly see the customer kept informed of everything along the way. If this was my bike, regardless of the condition, I’d want to know all the options in order to make the decision 👍
You can use a hg chain with linkglide but it has to be a 11spd chain
This.
I'll never buy a factory built ebike again. My first ebike was a haibike full suspension bike with a yamaha motor. The bike itself was fantastic until the motor stopped working and gave an error code on the display. I contacted the store where I purchased the bike from which was an online store called cycle republic, only to find out it didn't exist as a store anymore. I was told to take it to halfords since they were the owners of cycle republic. After taking it to halfords and several promises to fix the bike which went on for months, I eventually ran out of patience with halfords and to cut a long story short, I got a full refund for the bike. I used this money to build myself a full suspension ebike on a vitus sommet frame with better components. Im using the bafang bbs02b motor with a custom made battery.The total cost of the bike was less than I paid for the haibike. I now have an ebike with an unbelievably reliable motor with readily available parts that I can fully service myself. I also now have the option of upgrading the motor or removing it completely and using it as an ordinary bike. You can't do any these with a factory built ebike.
I own a Tongsheng motor with torque sensor. Actually two motors because I swap parts between them. All parts are available on Aliexpress for fair price. A controller is 32£. Yes, motor breaks down but I can fix it myself for a low cost. And it's not complicated. I'm from Sweden but wrote price in pounds.
@stonehill27 My son has the tsdz2 500w version on his bike.
Personally, I'm not too keen on them as I find them too flimsy. Everything is literally held together with circlips. The torque sensor works OK, but it's made of garbage and develops too much play on the axle and main gear. You can add 3 extra bearings to secure the axle a bit, 2 on the non-drive side, and 1 where the oil seal should be in the chainring on the drive side. I don't know if the newer B version is any better. I personally prefer the bafang as they're so reliable. My motors approaching 17000 miles, and I've done a full bearing replacement twice, minus the thrust bearings and needle bearings, and the motor still works like a dream.
I don't want a eBike yet but got a Gudereit trekking with Pinion gearbox leased since a year now and because that gearbox is in the middle you could easily fit in a rear hub motor later and put the battery under the rack or into the frame triangle; Mahle (another car supplier like Bosch, Brose and Continental) does such a system but sadly doesn't seem to offer that as an upgrade kit ☹
I would probably of got it fixed. They still have their bike and it has a new motor with 2 year warranty same as if they would’ve bought a new bike but cheaper. If you split it into two it’s only £300 per year, that’s not too bad.
Excellent good for you for subsidizing the repair cost and keeping it out of landfill!
I think repairability should be a big factor in purchase decision… can it be repaired? What do those repairs cost? Are bike shops even allowed to repair it?
It does seem very time generous. From bike to stand running a diagnostic, dropping the motor out, cleaning stripping it, emailing several companies looking for help or advice, then deciding it’s not worth the effort, contacting and dealing/emailing Bosch Support and ordering a new battery. Then fitting, a new gear cable, running through diagnostics again I assume to give customer a copy, drawing up the bill and test ride for £70.00?
No other bike shop would charge such a small amount.
There are things in this video we wouldn’t usually do. The motor was a gonna the first time I looked at it, but I made the video to evidence my experience really. To rebuild a motor is usually £200 if it’s all electrically sound.
@@Mapdec Tbh i did think that might be a possibility. Anyhow more great content, i like these real life job videos that most bikes shops are coming across, we're pretty much (customer lead) all eBikes now. Not all of us, well certainly not us deal with 4-5£ carbon frames every day or even ever, apart from my own. Top banana!
Always seems designers/engineers never thought that putting the motor right where it’s going to get drenched by the front wheel throwing water onto it when it rains was a bad idea, add in the motors don’t seem to be sealed that well, and then throw circuit boards in as well, it’s always going to end badly tbh
Always do what you did . . . try to fix, investigate options, replace parts if possible and available, if can't be fixed then buy new component but only if owner is happy with bike's performance and doesn't want to upgrade to latest tech or design
Wish I had you guys near me as my LBS! Thank you for the video, very informative.
Bosch and Shimano are terrible for repairability, totally agree with that. Thankfully Brose/spesh motors seem to be a bit better supported with lots of spares and third party specialists.
But I'm not sure I would give Apple any credit for repairability - they were forced to! Time for ebike motors to get the same regulations I think. Scrapping a bike because of the motor should never happen.
Yes. Brose are a lot better.
I have a fulgur mula from berkshire cycles that has a polini motor which is totally serviceable and all parts available. I've owned all motors and have to say I went for it purely because if the support from polini but its actually a very good motor too.
great work guys, this is a tough one if the bike was cosmetically in good condition it might have been worth it but this time it was borderline probably not worth doing. damn shame these big boy companies don't like us repairing stuff and would rather we throw stuff away and upgrade all of the time
Blimey
An informative video but glad I’ve got a hub motor unit set up. Might not be as fancy but a lot simpler.
We can all agree less stuff needs to go to landfill. You've done the right thing, you gave the customer the options and happily she opted to repair the bike instead of slinging it away and buying new. I think it's extremely poor that the motor manufacturers don't supply full rebuild kits for these things. It stinks of profiteering that you're forced to buy a new motor. What we all need is for Hope to start making motors and supply every spare part for them for the next 20 years 🤣
Here's an idea, CNC plates which take a normal BB to convert scrapped e-bikes back to normal bikes!
Good outcome and a(nother) great video. But wow, I really struggle with the proprietary ebike thing. Having to negotiate a replacement? That's insane. Are they worried you are going to send it to Russia or Iran?
I've been really happy with a CYC Photon conversion - makes the Bosch look like a waste of space. Durability for the Photon is unknown, but the known durability of the Bosch and other brands isn't very good anyway. And at least if my motor fails the original bike is as good as it ever was and isn't landfill.
I'm surprised China (who seem to copy everything) haven't already tapped into the replacement motor pcb market. There must be tons of dead motors out there that could be back in service with just a pcb swap out.
Wish Bosch would make it a bit easier to just buy a replacement motor. I'm definitely keeping my eye open for a gen 4 performance speed motor, for when mine eventually fails. I'm doing my first Cues swap here at the shop and when reading about the parts, they say only compatible with LinkGlide. Maybe the mechanic was new and just saw 9 speed and figured it all works together.
Guessing they got a few years out of that, so not all bad. They will likely come back to you as well so will now get it fully checked as needed anyway, glad it wasn't wasted.
As to the resale, it doesn't cover having a new motor with two-year warranty, which you generally cannot get second hand.
'Guessing they got a few years out of that' - not necessarily. I have a Trek e-bike which I have had serviced regularly by an approved dealer and the Bosch motor failed after just over two years and 5,000 miles on generally good surfaces.. I'm told that mechanically it is sound but the electronics have failed. As mentioned in the video, there is no replacement so it's a new motor for £700.
It isn't clear on the video, or photos on Google, but are the bearings behind a lip seal or are they just relying on shields to keep water and dirt out? If there are just rubber shields then they won't keep rain water and dust out, they're just to keep larger particles and some indirect spray out, and out of the box it would only be on borrowed time before it dies
There is another seal before the bearing, but it doesn’t help much. This is the thing we clean, check and sometimes replace in a service.
Can somebody explain why DIY motors always pot electronics while OEM like BOSCH never?
Option 4.
Use a conversion mounting kit in order to fit a bafang m5/600 or m620. People make them for this exact reason
@BramBiesiekierski that’s definitely an option & something I’d look at, but as you’d need a conversion mount, bafang motor, battery & controller, so once fitted would it be much cheaper for a shop to supply than a slot in oem motor?
Great video very informative thank you. However £70 labour for all that work seems unbelievably cheap. I am guessing any other bike shop would of charged substantially more. Given that and its overall condition, I think the bike should of been stripped for second hand parts and then scrapped.
Seeing as linkglide uses bog standard 11 speed shimano chains, should we assume the other shop fitted a 9 or 10 speed HG chain? The "linkglide" branded chains are different in model number only. Officially compatible with any other shi 11 speed drivetrain.
Yes. A 9sp chain was fitted.
Just wondering if eBay replacement would even be viable. From forums admittedly my understanding is the Bosch motors will spit the dummy for minor things like wrong gear ratios if you change your chainring etc
Old motor would be stuck on the old bikes wheel size and gear ratios which I have heard only Bosch can change but don't... from what I have read.
You would still need to take it to a service centre to be reprogrammed.
Another excellent video. Shimano do list that both Linkglide and 11 speed Hyperglide chains are compatible with the 9/10/11 speed Linkglide cassettes. I do wonder if the Linkglide chains would be a better match for the cassettes as their teeth profile is different to HG cassettes, why else would they make it when the 11 speed HG chains already exist?
Yes. But a 9sp HG is not compatible at all. Linkglide chain on linkglide cassette is also much quieter.
Ebike motor centre could help with that. They do recon units too
I know its a minor point but you can use an 11 speed HG chain on the Cues system.
Yes. But not a 9sp chain. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
Got an Orbea Gain to save on petrol,. The controller failed just under 3 years. Warranty is two years. Will cost £750 to repair because the controller is built into the battery. The bike has done 6000 miles, which means the bike has cost me £12.50 for every 100 miles. This isn't including the cost of the bike, chains, pads, free hubs, etc. it's cheaper driving
Yes. You are very right. EBike ownership is not a wallet friendly solution for the environment yet. It needs to change fast.
But no road-tax, insurance, or parking fees, eh? Ordinary non-E-bikes are cheaper in the long run, and if you stay away from the newer race-developed components and frame materials - serviceable with a minimum of special tools.
I’ve been riding,and tinkering with bikes for sixty years. Simpler design that can be relied upon, is always better.
In that case replacing the motor with a new one seems to be the most logical choice. However, I was told that if worn out the wheel (i.e. the brake strip) on my Brompton I will need to buy a whole rear wheel including the internal hub gear which is the major cost of the rear wheel. When I asked if the rear hub could not be detached from the old wheel and put on the new wheel, so I would only buy the rim instead of the whole wheel, the answer was no. Later, I figured out that actually this could be done but some bikes shops finds it more profitable to just replace the whole wheel instead of salvaging the what can be salvaged due to the time they need to spend on it.