Explaining the September 23rd, 2024 Commander Banlist
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- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
- Commander is a casual format focused on big, explosive plays and social interactions. Its banlist is more about facilitating fun games than it is creating a balanced format, which makes ban announcements especially exciting and contentious. The September 23rd banlist banned four cards and has been quite the topic of debate in the short amount of time since it was announced, so let’s get right to it.
Script by Uncrowned Jules
Editing by Pumkinswift
├ The List
Intro: (0:00)
#mtg #tcg #magicthegathering
(Just a note, we have people who actually know the game very well making the scripts for this channel. As the owner of the channel (Theduellogs/hirumaredx) is a total newbie to the game.)
WotC wants to try and make a balanced Black Lotus more than I've ever wanted anything in my life.
Lol right? Like I love that card for it's infamy but I would just give up on making a fair version of that card. I would imagine it would have to be part of a gimmick engine to have any chance of being usable but fair. It's essentially a boss monster for energy.
Black Lotus is the most famous card of magic. Referencing it drives hype, which sells product.
R.I.P. Gilded Lotus: Forgotten but not gone
"Time-Rooted Lotus"
Costa 0 - legendary
TAP, exile CARDNAME: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool. For the rest of this turn and until your second next turn, you can't win the game and your opponents can't lose the game."
@@alanevans5353I've tried to make it work with cost reductions, Filigree Sage, Hearthstone and ways ro copy artifacts, like an Azorious Urza ("prince of Kroger"? I don't remember)
Too cumbersome, even with Mirrorwork and stuff like thia
The thing that I honestly see as most important of this bans is that 3 of the cards are designed for commander by WOTC, and all three are Cancer and way to powerful to the point of harmonization of the format
Homogenization*?
Anyway, WotC needs and wants to sell packs, and there are TONS of crybabies out there that don't want both downsides on cards nor work their butts of to create combos and synergies across multiple cards (I mean, they want a single cards that __does A, the A enables B, which gets exploited for C while still denying D for your opponents__ ), so the easiest way to accomplish this is to create brainless broken cards that invalidate thousands and thousands of cards each due to simple powercreep
I've always been in the camp of "the RC doesn't go far enough". They clearly do not care about CEDH, so not banning broken cards like Ancient Tomb feels more like an oversight than a real decision. CEDH is almost entirely disconnected from regular EDH anyways, so the only reason they don't have their own rules committee is that it's not popular enough to warrant one.
Funnily enough another form of EDH, Pauper EDH, has their own banlist and ruleset.
The RC shouldn’t ban for cedh. The whole point of cedh is playing and adapting to the edh banlist, if you have your own cedh rules and bans you arent playing cedh anymore, youre playing something else. Not saying thats good or bad, but fundamentally cedh is a mindset rather than a format.
Left unsaid by the RC but very likely a factor on leaving Sol Ring untouched: banning it would make like 99% of precons unusable out of the box (I think there's literally only one single pre-con ever made that -didn't- include Sol Ring).
It’s also not cost-prohibitive since it has so many prints, it’s still like $2 or less for a Ring.
@@VVheeliThe RC obviously doesn't care about the cost of cards, otherwise they probably wouldn't have banned $400+ in one go
In my commander experience sol ring never seemed to cause as many problems. Getting it turn one was definitely a boost, but (barring "i use my mana rock to play even more mana rocks" shenanigans), you only got 2 colorless for your turn one play. Stuff like mana crypt gives you two colorless on top of whatever land you played, which opens up a lot more possibilities.
Then again it's been years since i played MTG, so i might just be out of touch.
"Unusable". Yeah because it's so physically impossible to just replace your precon's sol ring with a basic land.
That's pretty shit logic honestly. I don't think it should be banned but your reasoning is very flawed
8:26 I think everyone agrees with you, no matter if you're Mana Logs or the scriptwriter/editor.
This is why Wizards reprint policy needs to change. At least with Yu-Gi-Oh!, staple cards get reprinted to the dust. Ash Blossom had been reprinted in Structure Decks twice. Even Pot of Prosperity got a significant price decrease.
Stop withholding cards that rarely see print. Just reprint them for everyone to enjoy and own. Do what Yu-Gi-Oh! and especially Pokemon do by releasing tins that reprint cards affordably (and probably in bulk). The secondary market should not be the focus.
WotC: We have nothing to do with the secondary market.
Also WotC: Here's our list of cards we will never print again so they don't lose value.
Yeah , the issue isn't even that these cards were restricted due to "reprint policies". Mana Crypt has been a problematic card in the format for a very long time, and JL was pointed out directly as being problematic before the card was even printed. WotC had 4 years to reprint JL and Dockside yet never lowered the rarities and make the card accessible, which is what caused the current situation. If anything RC should ban cards much faster next time.
I think ultimately that the RC acted too late, besides Nadu all of these cards stayed in circulation for way too long. Dockside is and has always been fucking nasty. Does red struggle with ramp, sure, treasures in general were the breakout from that, but if building around it then it's possible to generate a good and steady supply that supplement land drops for explosive plays at the right times. Dockside worked too well too fast and could benefit too much from universal ramp options that everyone not in green pretty much had to play, while also having access to those same options. More and better treasure generators will be released in red over time, Dockside was just a card that swung games too much in the middle. As for Crypt and Lotus, idk. I think they could and should have left Lotus alone. Without Crypt supporting, I dont think it still does quite the same job.
Nadu is really just obvious, but Im inclined to think that an errata reprint stipulating that the lands come in TAPPED unconditionally and that had some limitation on the card draw after resolving, but idk, so ban deserved.
Maybe its just me, but overall I think fundamentally anything that can be played for zero mana without jumping through serious hoops is corrosive to the game, it just breaks it. Theyre here to stay though, I just don't especially like that sort of card design and how impossible it really is to play around as an opponent. They sell like hotcakes though, so wotc has a fiduciary responsibility to shareholders to make products that will continually sell. It is what it is. There has to be some regulatory body over the game if we want to see wotc develop chase cards that they expect to see years of continuous value, someone has to enforce an incentive.
These cards were a problem for the game, theres some pain involved in fixing any problem.
I think most of the debate is due the stockholding collectors that spent hundreds on these cards.
And that shouldn't be a factor in the balance of the game
You realize adults with real jobs play cedh n edh . I didn't loose 3k in cards i lost the ability to enjoy the format the way I. Choose. Poor minded individuals are speaking about monetary loss 😅😅😅😅
No, there's some collectors but that's not the full picture. A lot of people who just wanted to play powerful cards and were willing to pay, crack packs or trade in for that have now lost the ability to play those cards. In addition, the explanation from RC basically amounted to 'We don't like fast mana and what it does to game but we're not gonna fully take it out.' That sounds reasonable until you realize you don't really know what's gonna be on the chopping block anymore. People are scared to chase after powerful, possibly expensive cards because RC can't be consistent with their own criteria.
@TresBS1 no they have not you can rule 0 them in with other players who want to play thos cards
@@domicci4460 You assume that everyone's got a crowd who'll actually let that happen. Rule 0 is not some magic fix
If Dockside Extortionist is played against me, my opponent gets maybe 200 treasure tokens on the low end.
I play alot of artifacts.
Aside from nadu i felt like dockside, rhystic, and orcish bowmasters shouldve been banned. Those cards literally shaped the format. The best combos involved dockside loops. Rhystic is just insane card advantage. Lastly orcish bowmasters has kept low cmc and mana dorks at an all time low for the fear of being removed easily
Some of these cards are likely up to the table to rule 0, but dockside should've never been printed. It pretty much steals games once it's played and made a full rotation around the table
JLotus also. It was to print money
If you ban sol ring, how many on the shelf precon decks become illegal. Its all of them. Wizards probably won't let them do this, due to product issues like this.
Exactly, honestly I didn't even think about this until I watched the latest CGB's banlist video. How awkward and disheartening for a new player would be to sit down at a table with your brand new precon, ready to learn the game and then someone at the table tells you that your Sol Ring is banned...
WOTC doesn’t control them. The RC could absolutely ban Sol Ring if they wanted to. They don’t seem interested in doing so right now, likely because of its ubiquity.
No matter what the fact that you must invest mana into sol ring, even if it’s just 1, will always make it less strong than mana crypt. Crypt letting you keep your color for a 3 mana play on turn 1 is infinitely stronger than whatever a turn 1 sol ring will do
Cedh should just grandfather in the vintage restricted list as the ban list. Leave everything else unbanned and fine. The point of cedh is to win as soon as possible, it’s competitive, full pandemonium power level 10 all gas no breaks and let em cook. It’s what it is and how it’s meant to be.
Now if you’re that guy who shows Up to pods just to slam dunk on Newbys , little kids and precons then feel free to be mad, I’ll put a cape on you, so you can be super mad.
one thing many people miss is that cEDH doesn't want to be a seperate format. They want to play the highest tier possible within the format which means following the banlist that isn't curated to their style of play. it is optimising within the confines.
I don't care what gets banned, I'm still gunna use it if I have it.
Agreed. I see the reasoning behind the ban, but I think it was a bad idea.
It's more a long of the lines of wizards made these cards chase cards in the last several sets. People who bought into them for play are getting hosed. Very seldomly do I hear about cedh players curb stomping casuals. I only have cedh decks so unfortunately I don't get as many games in as I'd like but I'm not a fan myself of casual play patterns so it's not remotely fun to me playing against lower power decks. A divided cedh ban list and edh ban list would be fine to me.
Honestly I think a fair bit of the controversy came from this being (afaik), the first ban from the rc since Sheldon Menery of the rc passed. Sheldon was divisive and was often seen as the biggest reason the RC wouldn't take action on cedh. So without a scapegoat having the rc continue it's obtuse methodology of what is okay and what isn't (like sol ring) and showing massive indifference if not outright disdain for cedh has players reeling, trying to handle a group whose authority is questionable for the exact same reason why any cedh rc would be.
Kinda crazy how wizards will design cards for a format and then never print them again, ensuring they're hard to get your hands on if ya didn't snap up the precon when it came out.
It got spicy real quick!
There is a significant difference between Sol Ring and Crypt or Lotus (beyond it being in every starter deck, which would make them unplayable and, while not itself necessarily meaning the card can't be played at all, it's worth consideration), which is that Sol Ring doesn't give you colored mana by itself on the first turn, so it can't make you set up the first turn but attracts you heat.
Which also doesn't make the card untouchable or weak, it only applies to the very first turn, meaning that the opponents have to be very explosive in their first or second turn to stop you taking off, which basically means a Sol Ring of their own, but is still is a difference that is worth checking. Overall there is more thought to be given on it, but a ban might still be needed.
Also, I'm going to be unpopular, but the RC is right in not accounting for cEDH in the banlist. Commander is a casual format by nature, it's the soul and what keeps you alive, without the social contract and this idea the format would crumble faster than it already is (as putting commander at the center of the design rather than leaving it as a format for otherwise unplayable cards is hurting it badly). It's not wrong to like and play cEDH, but it is a different game. Is like liking Baldur's Gate and hence wanting D&D's rules to be written so that the game is easily codifiable: it's not what the game is, and would hurt it badly if it was.
Sol Ring also has the cost of 1, Crypt has a cost of 0 which means if you got sol ring on turn one, you only have 2 mana where as crypt you have 3 as long as you got a land to play. Crypt is just better then sol ring.
@@psal8715 it's more that Crypt is significantly more explosive, and since that's the issue was the explosiveness (and, again, Sol Ring is in almost all previous decks rather than just one) I wouldn't call it unclear but more not communicated properly. Although I still wouldn't see Sol Ring strictly unbannable or not worth keeping an eye on.
I've heard that the main suspected reason for Sol Rings being ignored it because it's much cheaper than the other cards hit.
thats just cause wizards reprinted it like crazy, imo its just cause banning it would make every previous precon illegal
That's exactly it. Most players only think fast mana is a problem when they get beaten by the bougie $100 fast mana that they aren't personally running. If the banned cards were under $5 they would still be unbanned.
I'm an EDH purist on the opposite end from cEDH. My decks are generally made out of chaff that no one would ever run in a competitive or multiple-copy format, usually in the name of keeping to a theme around the commander, like playing Liliana's Steward in a Liliana deck; as the format was designed. That's the type of Magic I got into, draft piles of general color pie identity and tribals before archetype mechanics were stuffed into everything. Which means my decks are often worse than the auto-include-Sol-Ring precons that WotC puts out, and I have no desire to play Ulalek as my 5C Eldrazi commander when I just want to play the Devoid cards from Battle for Zendikar, or Voja as a Naya Wolf commander instead of Elfball #5183
Sol Ring not being banned is simply because it is in every single commander product printed and to be printed. When banning JLo and ilk is already meeting class action levels of financial loss, banning Sol Ring would negate every single store holding on to sealed product.
While financial decisions shouldn't interfere with game health, some things are indeed "too big to ban". Sol Ring ban would cause even more people ignore the RC all together.
yea all four cards definitely right to ban but they could have done this a better way, but at the same time wotc/company has blood on their hands because this is the reason you need to reprint power cards like the ban ones more often so they are not expensive, heck richard garfield feels the same way and he was talking power 9 powered cards.
oh by the way that was the wrong prices of the cards those were after banning
before the bannings dockside was $80, jeweled lotus was $90 and mana crypt is a whopping $200
and another thing not mention this is the real key to why sol ring wasn't banned.....its theirs around 124 precons grand total and only one....count em one ("Painbow" for those who don't know) doesn't have sol ring reprinted. if they banned sol ring then every single precon in existence would become illegal to play....thats the real reason its not banned so they gone to deep and sol ring is in too many precons.
last thing not mentioned im sure people will say that "thassa's Oracle" possibly a few other fast rocks, and maybe "The one ring" could have bit the dust as well but as mentioned the other fast rocks are conditional, heck maybe even some cards could be unban too to this day quite a bit of the crowd feels that "biorythmn", "panoptic mirror" and even "Gifts ungiven" feel could be unbanned due to graveyard hate/better counter spells/too slow in todays meta
somethimg that would actually help commander as a format is to divide it like the constructed formats
a standard legal cards commander, a pioneer legal cards commander, a modern legal cards commander, an un- set legal cards commander, etc etc, this will help with the power level inconsistency and the deck building inconsistency.
and the most important format of all kitchen table commander aka rule zero
Only casuals think these bans will be bad for cEDH. Stax and blood moon will be viable again punishing the soup combo meta game and bringing back diversity.
Playing fighting games, playing Yugioh, and watching The ManaLogs just confirm something I've known for a while, that being, that no amount of balancing is ever going to please everyone.
the reasoning of fast mana cards leading to a 1v3 is not justified by sol ring still being unbanned which a common defence of sol ring is to go 1v3 against the player who just activated sol ring. its really the price of them thats the issue and if they reprinted it as much as sol ring was it they all be banned together
They should’ve said the price the day of the announcements because the cheapest jeweled lotus was almost $80. Man crypt about the same if not higher.
Nadu was very fun in my derevi bird tribal deck. He will be missed in there but it’s overall better for the format. I do think the best solution is to bring back the banned as commander list and put him on it.
Everytime i have used mana crypt, its the thing that killed me. I didnt think it really should of been banned still. not really all that upset about it.
You know the ban announcements are big when even the ASMR top ten dude is covering it
A day later mana vault jumps up in price
Amazing video
Shitty situation
Let's go. So long Dockside. I won't miss you bozo.
I'm stunned it lasted as long as it did.
The factor that ties all these cards together to me is that they are all “made for commander” cards that never existed in standard. Nadu was revealed to be a mistake because it was “made for commander” in a modern set.
If a card is made for commander, Wizards needs to not make it $100 by scarcity. I fully believe that if Mana Crypt had been reprinted enough to make it a $20 card then it would not be banned.
Mana Crypt was not made for commander, and neither was Sol Ring- former was a Harper Prism book promo, latter was from Alpha
The reason that Sol Ring is still perfectly fine in the format is becaue you can get the loose change out of your couch and buy one Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus where to expenaive and that made them unfair becaue not everyone can afford on unlike Sol Ring
Which is WotC's fault for not reprinting them enough. If Crypt and Lotus were like $25-$30 people would have grumbled but it wouldn't crazy like this. To paraphrase another video, if Dockside was $8 and not $80 this wouldn't have hurt nearly as much.
thats not a defence of sol ring, its not an argument against sol rings bad design. giving everyone a broken card does not make the card no longer broken.
Magic has fallen billions must cry
Bad takes
People who want to play hyper-efficient FTK commander should just play Yugioh instead
Cedh exist for that reason
Oh boohoo my speculation didn't pay off. Fuckin crazy the people say they lost money when they damn well know they weren't going to sell those cards.
I love the recent bans. Mana Crypt being banned makes me extremely happy.
Honestly anyone crying about these bans are finance bros larping as Magic players, you can't change my mind, they're literally game breaking unfair cards that generate far too much advantage for the turn player that's near impossible for people to catch up with/play against, they're unfun, unfair, too powerful and should have never been printed in the first place, though as we all know WotC has no form of R&D or quality control and are actively trying to kill Magic
I think both cEDH and EDH are better of without those cards.
Before the bannings that seemed to be the consensus. I don't understand why so many cEDH players are upset.
Yep, literally minutes ago I got done with a game where seat 1 opened Sol Ring. They demanded removal before removal was live, were able to keep up protection by the time the removal WAS live, and were threatening lethal and demanding a board wipe before it was possible to find and cast a board wipe.
The game was ruined by Sol Ring, as games often are.
I think the RC made a wise Decision not banning Sol Ring. If banning $100 cards causes a lot of outrage, then how much outrage do you think their would be if every commander precon ever printed became illegal to play in commander because one card in all of them is banned in commander? Banning a card printed in every precon would be a massive blow to new players buying these to get into the game.
Definitely feel like Mana Crypt was banned to help lower the price of the card and increase the supply of Mana Crypts on the Second-hand market for Modern and Eternal players.
Dockside Extortionist I feel was the card that needed to be banned the least, given that Red decks, particularly mono-red decks struggle in EDH. Though the Overprinting of it I feel absolutely made the card Ban-worthy.
Jeweled Lotus was just a fuckin mistake on all fronts. I cracked mine in a pack when the set first came out, and it never felt good or fun to see my friends just look at me with resentment and have that lingering shit feeling over the table every time we play, even when it wasn't in any of my decks. It should never have seen print.
Powerful cards are fun, but blatantly 'OVERPOWERED' cards ruin formats. And I do run both Casual and CEDH circles, and sorry CEDH friends, but this ban needed to happen. Games are just too predictible
RC latest ban was a joke. Completely ignorant. Yeah let's ban cards made specifically for commander... oh and let's not look at the real problem. Red herring the players while thassas orical still remains.
The cards that were made for Commander were design mistakes and too powerful. Thoracle’s existance doesn’t make those cards good.
Nice ragebait
@@magnusprime962 naw
@@magnusprime962 get bend.
All the band besides Nadu are stupid and do nothin but hurt the format and there's no arguin that point at all and that's why we need what I'm callin a vintage commander format with a banlist the same or similar to vintage with it's own vedh and cvedh standards
"cEDH was made worse by the bans"
So, nothing of value was lost
Different strokes for different folks. Hating how other people play the game is very weird
@@buddieschiknful They signed in a casual format so they should expect bans and rules changes to no fit them. Flash ban was a gift of good will for them already
@@TheRedGauntlet I didn't say that it was wrong for those cards to be banned or that the cEDH community's reaction to this was correct. I'm merely stating that hating on how other people enjoy playing the game is weird.
@@buddieschiknful I dont mind others playing the way they want. My problem si when they want to change the game to suit their needs.
Fun fact, MTG was originally a very casual game. But things change ..
Why should anyone buy Commander packs in the future if the made-specifically-for-and-can-only-be-played-in-Commander cards that are the most expensive part of the pack just end up getting banned and going to nothing?
"going to nothing" self report
Mana crypt and Jeweled lotus deserved the hit
No they didn't
@@jayredharpstudios9672 0 cost mana rocks locked behind a paywall in a casual format isn't good and yeah proxies exist as well as rule 0 but some people don't like others playing proxies and not everyone is going to agree to rule 0. If anything the banlist gives the upper hand to the casual player since they could argue that these cards are banned and it's left up to the cedh player to find a pod to rule 0 them in. At the end of the day commander is a casual format and is the starting point for lots of people getting into magic. If anything the banlist should drop 1-2 times a year and cards should be banned and released on a necessary basis.
@kevinlee5753 commander maybe a casual format, but a casual format is still going to speed up with newer and powerful cards, and Jeweled Lotus can only work in commander so now it's a piece of cardboard that can't do anything, commander also isn't balanced at all so banning cards like Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus just hurts the format more than it improves it, because games are now going to go much longer than they should, if one player opens up with a Jeweled Lotus or any other piece of fast mana on turn 1 in a pod that can handle fast mana then go for them, and while yes the pay wall for Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt definitely exists and you can blame the collectors that would rather keep the prices so their precious piece of cardboard holds money
@@jayredharpstudios9672 commander isn't supposed to be a fast pace game which is why the banlist needs to be used more so cards that can generate advantage in the long run like rhystic study and smothering tithe and that purposely slow the game down even further like winter orb and winter moon should be banned.
@@kevinlee5753 well Commander is just going to get faster and not everyone has time for the 1+ hour game that lasts for fourteen turns which is why the fast mana is great for the format and seeing as how because of the banning of Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus has caused all of the other fast mana artifact price to increase by 200% that's not a good thing either.
Abolish the RC
Cry more.
😂
When what commander dies as a supported format
Free Birdman, Nadu Did NOTHING WROOOOOOONG!!!!
Jeweled Lotus is the one that makes no sense since its near useless now. You can do some meme things with the mana but that is it. It was MADE for commander. I wish they were way more consistent with the bans.
That card shoudnt have been made in the first place
@@TheRedGauntlet That's an opinion yes
Same thing can be said for nadu. Just because it was made a for a format doesnt give it any more right as anyother card.
@@zandaman802 Most people are mad because on how long it took to ban the cards and them just reprinting Mana Crypt is the extra kick in the face.
This is the worst take I’ve ever heard, how is this your job?
I don’t see you making and editing your own videos. Or even offering an actual counterpoint.
@@magnusprime962 and that’s why it’s not my job, even though in an open debate, it wouldn’t be close.
@@dillonday6123 It's fun to axiomatically declare yourself the winner of a debate that you refuse to participate in.
@@KaseyWynne did you listen to 15+ points of absolute garbage that was being espoused? Pick one, I’d be happy to show you exactly what I mean, but laying out full arguments for all of them seems like lost cause to a non receptive audience.
@@dillonday6123 So, yes, you refuse to participate in it. Got it. But, if you insist....talk about financial aspect, and how it shouldn't be taken into account when banning. That is the only one I'll ask about.