Thank you for actually playing some games with the new ban list! So many people are getting super mad without even trying out the new format. Your voice stands out as very level-headed and grounded.
Great video. It takes a lot to recognize your own up to your initial emotional reaction as valid as it is and come out later with a great analysis on why everything is ok. Superb explanation and super informative.
This is the kind of video that I like. Not a heated video posted the day of about how everything was wrong, but a calculated, thought-out video about how everything is impacting the format. This was really well done. And as a side note, please be nice to people
If we're voting for people to help cEDH management, then I nominate Ryan to be speaker of the house. Love you and thank you for being a voice of reason and empathy in the community ❤
This feels eerily nostalgic to me, the first video that I saw from this channel was the podcast about flash being banned, been here ever since, thanks for all the content and here’s to many more!
Ryan, this is the most eloquent and thoughtful take I have seen about this all week. I volunteer a substantial amount of time as an admin, moderator, brewer, and reviewer for cEDH in a wide variety of spaces. Because of the nature of my position in in this community, I have seen so much ugliness from within our community this week. I love and care about this community, and it hurts my heart to see the constant anger, mocking, and harrassment we've seen. Thank you for taking the time to address the community and share your perspective, and thank you for being kind and caring in your response to this community. It comes as a light in dark times, and I couldn't agree with you more.
I know I'm the minority, but cedh was my escapism. I'm a father of 2. I have a full time job and a mortgage. My once a month cedh night at my lgs is the only me time I get atm. I don't collect, I buy exactly what I need. I was playing Etali and now I have no real replacement for it. It was my favorite deck I've played in almost 3 decades of magic. Can't play it in casual so it's just gone now.
Allen from Mental misplay is experimenting with a new post ban Dino. As a korvold player I’m feeling you tho. I’m gonna probably try and look at some of the Asian meta lists they have been a bit more mid range for a while.
I'm in a very similar situation. I'm a father with a full-time job, and I get twice a month to cEDH with a core friend group. I was attracted to cEDH because of the quick pace of the game. We tried to play casual but the games kept dragging on. With cEDH we get many games in through the evening. One benefit I have is that I play with the same 3 other guys and we instantly agreed to Rule 0 these bans to the void where they belong. Maybe you could propose the same idea if you play with some friends at your LGS?
I've been playing cEDH for 4 years now. I have a cEDH modular deck initiative. Korvold was one of my options, it is now gone. Godo was another option. Kraum is partner which is not aa good now. I've been focussing on K'rrik recently and am one of the sympathetic yet feeling lucky people out there to have a deck which has been only affected a small amount.
I feel you, man. I’m 20 and have been playing competitively for 6 years. I used to grind Modern events at my LGS, consistently getting great results. From the moment I got into Magic, I’ve always played Izzet colors. I still remember a friend showing me some Magic cards, and after googling them, I saw Niv-Mizzet for the first time-I instantly fell in love with his design. I played Niv-Mizzet, Parun in Standard, then in casual, and he’s the reason I stuck to Izzet colors for years in Modern. A couple of years ago, I got bored with the current Modern meta, so I decided to build a cEDH deck. I started saving up every day, week, and month to buy all the cards, except for Reserved List staples like Volcanic Island and Mox Diamond. What really hurts isn’t the money spent-because I didn’t buy these cards to sell them; I bought them to play. I’ve never cared about the game’s financial aspect. It was about finishing my deck, playing it, and enjoying the game. I loved collecting the pieces, even though proxies are widely accepted. Proxies were fine for other decks, but for Niv, I wanted the real deal. I felt like not owning the actual cards would be a disservice to him and myself. Now, with Dockside and Jeweled Lotus banned, the deck feels dead, and there’s no other commander that can replace the unique gameplay Niv provided. It was pure fun. I’ve always believed Commander needed a competitive banlist, because casuals can adjust their games with Rule Zero, but cEDH doesn’t have that luxury. Honestly, I’m considering quitting the game. Playing cEDH was my way to disconnect and recharge during long study sessions at university. Now, though, it feels like the format is losing its diversity because of bans catering to salty casuals and pubstompers, and that’s really frustrating.
I am weirdly split on this banlist. From PoV of casual pickup games, I like the bans. These cards have been warping the casual format at random pickup games/LGS in a pretty negative way, not due to the cards themselves, but due to how recent card design works with them, often leading to non-games or stomps. It is also surprisingly difficult to make certain players understand just why fast mana is so strong/a problem in casual, due to "but if sol ring is okay, why shouldnt I run crypt and lotus, I pulled them out of a pack and my deck needs them to work". Dockside itself also often is a weird 2 mana "I win" card a lot of the game in casual, with how popular various artifact/artifact token decks are On the other hand, from CEDH PoV, while Nadu needed to go due to play pattern problems, and dockside getting banned was probably good for the format, crypt and lotus being banned feels like a banning that will hurt the diversity of the format more than it will help. A lot of what I would call fringe CEDH decks such as Urza for example, are hurt by jeweled lotus going a lot more than Kinnan/RogSi/blue farm.
In hindsight, after a bit more playtesting, Urga wasn’t a great example. There is a bunch of fringe stuff that gets harmed, Niv Mizzet probably being a better example
I think you understand the health of the casual format is all that the RC cared about, they have said before that they don’t take cEDH into any consideration for bans. While yes I agree that it can hurt the meta of cEDH I think time will help discover what might’ve been looked over because of these cards
24:30 My concern is that these bans have not narrowed the gulf between thoracle/breach lines and every other win con. While cEDH at the LGS or online might be more somewhat more diverse, I don’t know that at the highest (tournament) level there will be greater deck diversity. Obviously this could turn out to be the worst take, but it is concerning to me.
You sir, are a vise man. Cred to you for making this video with not only the empathi for those who's feelings been shattered, but also a great way of explaining and compairing with earlier bans or almost bans. I wish this video reach out to all the edh//cedh players and also that they open their hearts and minds to the changes that are happening. Thank you for this.
Just starting this vid I'm gonna quickly list my personal thoughts on the bans. Dockside: Good fucking riddance. This was just a step too far in terms of fast mana. Nadu: Probably for the best that this is banned. Manual """storm""" that is even more boring than Krarkashima casting Gitaxian Probe 15 times in a row. Mana Crypt: I think I'd rather not have this be banned, but it's not a ban I'll complain about. Jeweled Lotus: This is a ban I will complain about. I like cooking with more expensive commanders and having the potential to rip my commander 3 mana faster than normal is a massive point in favor of the more cooked commander picks.
I also build creature less EDH decks and JL essentially made every commander a viable choice now. My Legolas will not be dropping JL anytime soon regardless of the ban.
Interesting to hear your thoughts and I especially appreciated your covering the edh spin-off formats and those banlists. I knew some of them, but as you said not most, and it was interesting to learn that EDH, with its ban signposts, not every problem card approach was actually late to banning those particular cards. Provided some helpful perspective on this whole thing. Also enjoyed your tone in framing the conversation you're trying to have. Good job
In the article, they specifically mention Sol Ring and admit that it meets all of the criteria that they lay out for mana crypt, but defend Sol Ring by saying "it's fun sometimes"
You are correct about it but I think. It came down to “do we ban like 100 cards or do we pick the stronger options?” They chose the latter and they also probably don’t want to completely stop all quick mana or potential explosive turns but to make them less consistent. It is a matter of a lesser of 2 evils for this one.
This is one of the few videos I’ve watched this week that’s actually helped me process these bans. Still haven’t updated decks but that’s probably gonna be next weekend’s plan. Thanks for sharing.
I think right now, cEDH is having a bit of an identity crisis. Our format's governing body isn’t interested in catering to our meta, and cards that weren’t a problem for us have been banned for the sake of casual EDH. We need to decide: are we EDH taken to its logical extreme, or aren’t we? If we are, then we need to accept that this is how things are. Even if we don't agree with them. I think the bans were too sudden, and handled very poorly by the RC. But bans are also a normal part of every other format. It's very telling that we react this poorly to cards being banned.
cEDH folk need to realize that these cards (especially Dockside and Nadu) warp the meta around themselves and, unless you really enjoy blinking Dockside for the next 50 years, the cEDH meta has been stale for a while and not in a good way. You need a meta shake-up once in a while and this banlist incidentally provides that. Now, I don't know whether this will be a good for the format or RogSi will dominate it all, but splitting the formats just so you can play with broken and banned cards is not it. If cEDH splits, a new banlist is in order (ban Rograkh and Thoracle maybe?), and reintroducing Dockside is not a smart move
This is my take on it too. I know a lot of people won't agree (and that's okay) but I've always thought that cEDH is just the rule 0 talk saying we're going to play EDH at the highest power we can. I think limitations are a foundation of the format, that's why we play with color identity. This changes how and what we play, but we'll be just fine.
@@florinalinmarginean1135this is a false equivalence. Dockside in cEDH would likely face a ban or be heavy restricted at tournament. So what the OP stated is true. CEDH is causing and while also being overly affected by bans for casual players. Dockside being a blow out Win More card in casual while being an interact or scoop card in competitive cause it to get banned in casual games. The peak of the cards annoyance is why it’s gone, which 99% of players don’t even have decks with the ability to do that.
Cedh isn't a separate format. It's just edh played at its most powerful and competitive spirit. Splitting the formats won't do anything. People will just break the new format and technically, a new cedh will be made.
@@mramisuzuki6962 I do not disagree with OP. However, why are cEDH players advocating for splitting the format right after this banlist? They clearly want to reverse the bans, and I don't think it will be healthy for the format. Anyway, the community seems pretty divided. Some want a split so they can play with these powerful cards, while others recognize cEDH is just EDH, but pushed to its limits, so a split doesn't really make sense
Basically every commander that has red in their colors and costs 4+ mana. Niv Mizzet, Kraum, maybe Ob Nix. But we shall see what players will do about that. Callahan and Ian talked about Blue Farm because prior to Jeweled lotus, Kraum was somewhat unplayable.
@@TheUrDragon25 I've been playing godo for eight years. He lost three of his most important pieces. The only way he could be more dead is if they banned helm.
We need to acknowledge EDH is not a casual format anymore and we cannot keep banning cards using the same logic has 14 years ago. CEDH people need to be the one making these changes from now on.
As a Stax player, this is literally the best news I have gotten all week. I love this ban so much. I am so happy about the fact that the format is slowing down and all of the cards I ran to fight mana rocks and Dockside Extortionist are now empty slots that I can improve and innovate on.
What a fantastic video! I don't play cEDH personally, but love watching the content, and everything was extremely well-said, in my opinion. You found a great way to summarize everything and gave players options moving forward. So many people fly off the handle and complain about issues, but so infrequently offer solutions! Great work!
The psy op of starting the video saying the bans were bad before making an incredible argument in favor of them was IMMACULATE! Took down all their mental defenses right away, then attacked behind the wall. All while cradling their volatile emotions. Bravo 👏
Great, thoughtful takes. I really appreciate your thorough articulation of these very reasonable views. I massively agree with the majority of them! Glad to see these perspectives being voiced to contrast all the rage.
Thanks for mentioning Rocco. Day 1 in the discord was a bit rocky but the brewers put heads down and we have some solid lists. Tutor in command one is good 😊
Balanced and calm(ing). Well done. Although I'm likely older than you, your consistent "everything's going to be just fine" makes you the unofficial cEDH dad. In all the good ways.
I think decks which traditionally used dorks has come out of this less affected by the bans. Gitrog for example. K'rrik is not badly damaged by this, just rely's more on what is left (mana vault, heartless summoning etc.) I think Magda is ok still, even without Dockside.
Speaking as somebody who was... Very vocal in the cEDH community after the banlist, I've since separated myself entirely from the wildfire debate that's been going on. The level of toxicity that I received both in public and private messages was far too much to bare. It was nearly impossible to have a reasonable conversation with anyone, because emotions quickly got involved. The amount of times I was able to stop the conspiracy theories and revolutionary vitriol for one night, I'd wake up and it'd start up twice as bad. It's a very volatile time. Maybe I'll return in the future... But I've since completely removed myself from the community. I've been debating on selling off my high-end staples due to how bad things got, because I'm not sure I want to deal with it again. I just hope things get fixed up in the future. Thanks for the great video, PWP.
Exactly! Wizards of the Coast allowed the RC to make these bans. Wizards is a billion dollar company. They're not going to let 5 random people make these types of decisions on their own. They took the "hit" because they've already made their money. They also probably have some replacements for these cards planned for next year.
I think Thassa should have died, and i think Rystic could have taken the hit. That card is kinda hard to track in casual circles, which it looks like this banned list is meant to moderate going forward
The ban list has an emphasis on the casual side of EDH. Thasa's Oracle isn't problematic at casual tables from a power level standpoint. It is arguably a mediocre card that is only made into an effective win condition with very specific (and also arguably bad) enablers. If someone is running Thoracle + Consult shenanigans in casual they're going to get heat for it because that does not reflect the type of experience most casual players are trying to foster in their games. Thoracle almost never "wins on the spot" in casual and when it can, it is probably actually like a pseudo lab-man for decks that try to win by self mill or card draw. It can be played fairly in blue decks that care about wizards, merfolk, top deck manipulation, or devotion to blue strategies. It's not really ban worthy.
A meta game within a format. I really like that description. Some interesting points brought up, which I wasn’t expecting. I was of the mindset that dockside was critical to red decks (playing Rowan myself). I hadn’t considered how ubiquitous it was, ie in ALL red decks, tutors for it, looping, etc. Seeing it laid out this way was enlightening. Same reasoning for mana crypt
Wonderful take on the topic. You mentioned the other formats and I have heard of them because of Moxfield and Scryfall. However I have only played Oathbreaker. I really like Oathbreaker, almost as much as EDH. I must point out that while Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt are banned in Oathbreaker, Dockside is still legal. Not as good though without the fast mana. On the discussion of the banned cards, I do not agree with Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt at all. I do play cEDH and have recently gotten i to the tournament scene. Top 16 my first tournament (64 players) with Malcolm / Vial Smasher. Not sure how I will pivot the deck now. I used Dockside as an enabler to use Magda to cheat Hoarding Broodlord into play. I could also use the treasures to hard cast Hoarding Broodlord. I also had Dualcaster Loops and of course Underworld Breach Lines. Not to mention Thoracle and Consult. The loss of crypt, lotus, and dockside have really neutered the build. I have a tournament in three weeks and I am not aure what I will do.
Mana crypt was "soft banned" IMO in casual edh, as are many cedh staples, at least in high quantities. No one was okay with a casual deck running all the fast mana and free interaction pieces, even if your commander/win conditions are bad. That is just a bad cedh deck. Sure it is okay to run a mox opal in your artifact theme deck, or a mana crypt in your coin flip deck, or dockside in your pirates/goblins deck, etc. But there is technically nothing in the rules preventing some one from doing this. Which leading to lopsided public games where people don't abide by the soft bans or have a proper rule 0 conversation. Hence why sadly theses cares are actually banned now. But its not just these 4 cards that are "soft banned" IMO, it is probably a good portion of the top cedh meta. Mox diamond, sol ring, chrome mox, rhystic study, mystic remora, the one ring, orcish bowmaster, thassa's oracle, demonic tutor, vampiric tutor, underworld breach, smothering tithe, etc. I foresee some of these cards being banned in the future with the recent precedent. And I would agree with those bans! In a casual setting of course. In a cedh setting though, I don't want to play a watered down version. I like you, want to play with the broken cards. Will it take another cedh meta card ban before we say "enough is enough" or just do it now because both formats would be healthier in the long run. Will it be difficult, will it stunt growth, maybe but worth it when "enough is enough".
They aren't really soft banned in casual EDH, otherwise these cards wouldn't demand such a high price tag on the secondary market. Thoracle is soft banned in casual EDH, even at high power tables, and its price reflects that. Dockside, Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt on the other hand... People need to realize that casual does not mean most people are playing at precon level. Most of the time, these cards will be played in casual decks, but they won't be abused for infinite combos or along Thoracle
The problem is though no one's actively trying to tell people that they can't do something. I've had people have those cards in their deck and I didn't even know because the only thing they claimed was the deck wasn't cedh. So just like your example, it's just a weak cedh deck but from their perspective it is not a CEDH deck at all.
@@florinalinmarginean1135 Yup! Unfortunately feels like the card assessment skill of a lot of casual players is a bit skewed by sol ring so they feel like "crypt and lotus arent THAT much stronger, they should be fine". Also a weird case of convincing themselves that since their deck itself is not THAT optimized, using stuff like crypt/lotus/dockside is completely fine, since what they are going to be using that mana on is "fine", and then are confused when they randomly pop off/stomp the pod with T2 voja
@@shaedeymamlas5496 you don't even need to go that far, I'm 3/3 on Golos players going "no, my golos is totally fair, it isn't that sort of golos" and proceed to cast golos and vomit their deck on the table the turn after. "I'm just casting triplicate titan and MH3 emrakrul for free, they die to path/swords, it's fine". "i'm only running darksteel colossus and not blightsteel, it's a meme deck" I mean, it really is the mana boost/cheating that is the issue there more than the cards, but that doesn't diminish that they are strong cards.
@@Starkipraggy on topic of “my deck is totally casual”, my absolute nemesis is Yuriko. I’m so far 3/3 on Yuriko players stomping the table then after being asked how they built the deck, they go “Well, I looked up competitive Yuriko, then removed demonic consultation&thassa’s oracle and a couple other cards, so this deck is roughly power level 6-7 or so, your decks just suck” Not sure what it is about Yuriko in particular, but feels like the commander just draws in players either wanting to pubstomp or totally clueless
A long watch, but this definitely opened my eyes to the other side of the argument. I appreciate the thorough discussion; you made some great points. I'm still salty, but definitely more understanding now 😊
I appreciate this take and that you took the time to compose yourself and collect your thoughts before responding. You obviously have a deep understanding of the format and can articulate a nuanced explanation of what to expect as the dust settles. Jlo will be missed. I never played it and some commanders certainly abused it, but I believe it promoted deck diversity, at the end of the day. Nadu will not be missed. Sure, it was absolutely annoying to watch the deck durdle, but there are so many other unhealthy play patterns layered on top of that. One of the most frustrating being to have your removal spell draw Nadu the interaction to stop your removal. The value Nadu provided was both immense and overly difficult to hinder, which is a combination that easily creates issues.
Very good address of the idea of splitting the format! I think it would be interesting to see a fully powered meta, like a vintage/cedh mashup. Maybe not a "no banlist" meta but one where the p9 is legal. As for casual edh, these bans are great and might have gone farther in my opinion.
You very briefly mentioned Bowmasters, but just on that point, I firmly believe the purpose of bans should be making weak decks more viable as opposed to putting a handicap on strong decks. Just to briefly explain with some cards people often want banned, as I've said in another comment how I believe banning fast mana hurts slow decks more than fast decks. Thassa's Oracle, it's strong, yes, maybe too strong, but with the fast mana among other things, decks could counter it, this should be supported, banning Thoracle doesn't just mean the card, it effectively removes a playstyle (one you may not enjoy, but some people do) The One Ring, blue is very good at drawing cards, and the strongest colour by a long way, with or without the one ring blue will have card advantage, the ring being colourless gives each other colour some sort of option to compete, supporting other colours, not nerfing blue Bowmasters, basically is the reason (parts/most of) green isn't playable at a high level, banning it creats more viable deck options in the meta while not significantly hurting black because bowmasters isn't a strategy or namesake of any deck and is replaceable
Personally I view Bowmasters in Dockside on the same level, but that's just me 🤷. The thing about those two cards are that your being punished by just playing the game. With Dockside your punished with just playing alot of artifacts and enchantments. With bowmasters you're punished by drawing extra cards. I think Bowmasters is worse and more toxic because you don't even have to be the one drawing extra cards and you're still getting punished. Having all your mana dorks shot down and killed. When you haven't even drawn a second card :///
@simplexius9250 Dockside unfortunately was abused and therefore I understand it's banning and avoided putting it alongside Thoracle and The One Ring in my comment, however with the way it scaled with table power it was a good tool, I.E. if I bring a cEDH deck to pubstomp my casual LGS, Dockside is typically one of the worse early rituals in my deck, however if I drop a handful of fast mana and an opponent plays a Dockside, it doesn't make us even but it gave them some kind of chance, these are of course extremes, but effectively it had the ability to close a gap in power imbalance. Granted it made people less likely to dump a hand full of rocks, but it didn't make treasures by oppressing those players (it wasn't Hullbreacher), looping it made it strong enough to deserve it's ban, outside of that (in an ideal world where things aren't ever abused) it was a great catch up tool that made a burst of mana to compete with opponents explosive starts
strong decks are beating you regardless of the "catchup" cards, you make 4 treasures with your dockside? They clone your dockside and now you're put in a difficult situation of "sac treasures and get 0 value because weak deck doesn't have that many instant speed plays" or "give strong deck 4+ treasures to take over the game even harder". One ring? you put in 4 mana into yours, they clone it for 2 and start drawing with that + their own draw effects.
@Starkipraggy so your argument is that you shouldn't play good cards to try to keep up with good decks, because the good deck might clone your good cards? 🤣🤣🤣
@@KingSkinny-ww2pl I'm not saying you shouldn't run them, but stronger decks are better positioned to take advantage of the stronger cards. You happen to draw your mana crypt to cast aatraxa on turn 5, I vamp tutor for crypt and T2 rhystic study for card advantage and am constantly able to hold up U for counters. Banning big swingy mana cards forces a more level playing field since a player wouldn't be able to get as far ahead on board as before.
I for one love the bans! For context I main Atraxa, and I see a lot of people say the deck died, but I beg to differ! I've been trying my hand at playing crucible of world effects coupled with exploration to ramp past my opponents and slingshot past them. And it hasnt been that bad as of yet, just being able to basically go up a card each turn I would have missed a land drop makes a world of a difference.
Wow! That was the most clearheaded, intelligent discourse on the matter I have heard from any content creator. I have only dabbled in cEDH, but your words were incredibly insightful and resonant regardless. I would encourage you to reach out to some of the big channels like TCC and the Command Zone and invite those creators to watch this video in full; you have gone far beyond the insights those outlets have provided, and getting this kind of thinking out to an even greater number of commander players would open a lot of eyes and jump start the “healing process” in the wake of the recent bans. But of course, the elephant in the room: what is your take on WotC’s new stewardship of the format?
I'm sure this comment has been made dozens, if not hundreds of times below. But thank you Ryan! You and your team at PWP are a huge reason that I got into this format, and your opinion brings a much needed voice of reason to the discussion. I, like you, was angry at first and was considering finding another hobby/format to play. I appreciate you putting voice to what many like-minded individuals have already thought, that while these bans "sucked" at first glance, they might end up being good for the format in the long term and bring back strategies that were once seen as too slow into the fold. Thanks for doing what you do!
I like the point about clones, but lotus to me felt like it enabled bad table politics mana was getting so easily avalible we were seeing atraxa in cedh and it was getting powered out consitently on turn 3 ,8 mana consitently turn 3 and this only came from the laters of mana generators we had avalible. I would say the use for clones spiked hardest when atraxa came out and we had great reason too, people were playing 8 mana commanders with nuts etbs and everyone else ssid clone just got better. If my whole stratagy is generate absurd amounts of mana and slam my commander repeatedly until it sticks its kinda unfun tbh. The game is less of creative interactions and more of everybody whos not atraxa better have a cpunter ready and w can all take turns not letting that player play, the guy olaying the big commander does nothing but ask if he can cast his now 12 mana commander on turn 5 for the third time to see if the table has it again. And the whole table gets to save interation and let other big threats slide with because of the impending doom of the atraxa cast for the 4th time. Its not competitive its roll the dice did i have enough fast mana to make 8 by turn 3 ? Very glad that shits gunna get dumpstered. If a meta is clone heavy it probably means the threats are crazy good, and if crazy good threats are everywhere what do you interact with? If you cant interact with the crazy good threats becuase there is so many of them why play interaction? If your not playing interaction and fast mana and crazy effects are easy to come by why not kust jam like a clam ? Basiclly we were going backwards, interaction was dropping expeneive effects were on the rise and people were slowly leaning into sharing
Gotta say ur takes were awesome I’ve been tired of everyone saying their decks are dead and the format needs to be split. It makes me super torn. On one hand it makes me realize how big the format has gotten on the other it made me realize that not everyone is into Cedh for the same reason I got into the format. End of day Cedh is just no holds barred cutthroat commander splitting it off makes it not that. My first deck was paradox Joihra when that got band I swapped and brewed another version untill flash got big and I left. I realized that meta wasn’t for me and left to eventually come back when it was. Some of yall may need to do that and that’s ok. Cedh has eras we just entering another one.
Cards used to be banned for being expensive which is why timetwister was the only legal card from the p9 because it was cheaper than the rest, not because it's power.
Thanks for the video. In all honesty, as a player thinking about entering the format and wanting to play Heliod, this ban actually makes it seem like I have an ability to actually be involved in the format with at least a fringe playable deck. I appreciate your thoughts!
By far, best and most complete pov about stuffs happened. Even if my grixis pirate was just f*cked up, now i m more confident about the future of format
Thank you for making this video. I really liked it, even though our viewpoints are different. As an example, for reference, I play a lot of 7 point highlander. Which if you know canadian highlander is a 60 card variant of that, pretty much. There are three carss that are worth 5 points of your 7 when building decks, ancestral recall, time walk, and mana crypt. Let that sink in for a moment. Mana crypt is the same amount of points as time walk and ancestral recall. It was no surprise to me that mana crypt got banned, based on that data, as you pointed out, mana crypt is one of the most powerful carss in this game. Mana crypt is more points to play than black lotus. And there are still decks that point for it. Thats 80% of your total allotted points tossed into one card. 7 point highlander uas been around as long as EDH has so theres a lot of data on this from that standpoint. I am not happy about this ban. But i do think these cards had it coming.
I get the cedh = edh argument. I do. I really do. I also feel that after the growth over the last few years it has really become its own thing(reminded of the post-Ravnica/Theros rotation when Modern got really popular with player growth and loving/upgrading their various decks), and if there isn't a split then.... I would suggest that there needs to be more work (and honestly more bans) from the RC to delineate power levels for us, as this does nothing to fix the "rule 0" / "it's a 7, bro" issue, which I feel is actually the main problem and is just gonna keep coming back up and maybe even get worse. So like how WotC controls 60-card constructed - modern, legacy, vintage, etc - let the CAG/RC set some edh "format" expectations. Like, let a cedh tier exist, with fast mana, coalition victory, no flash, and the izzet otter. Let the people play with the stronger, faster stuff. Call it Daft Punk, idc. Then a more casual one (names are a work in progress, clearly) with the current banlist. Whatever the baseline "vision" is for EDH. Then another one, with no free commander spells, even less fast mana(and maybe it's just me, but if I was grim monolith, mana vault, or mox ___ I would be pretty worried about how long I have left right now), flash unbanned, etc. And then one for straight Battleship. And seriously tho, free the izzet otter. Banned as companion, whatever. He did nothing wrong.
As a main Duel Commander player who plays some cEDH on the side, Dockside Extortionist is perfectly reasonable in a 1v1 setting. Unlike Commander, traditional aggro is ubiquitous in the format and your opponent might not even have a single artifact or enchantment for it to do anything. Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt are a different story however. Remove them from the ban list and the pitchforks come out.
A well thought out response. I was, like so many, dead set against the bans. I think I'd got used to the fact we hadn't had any real impactful changes for some time and these were some big hits effecting many cEDH decks. I still feel that cEDH "could" have handled keeping Crypt, J-Lo, and to some extent Dockside in (the latter less so as it did warp some of the builds). But I see how these did not work well in more casual commander. After hearing the thoughts of creators like yourself I have come to the same conclusion regarding any potential cEDH split; it is not a realistic option. But EDH/cEDH will continue. A handful of deck strategies have become unplayable with the loss of dockside, and some higher costed commander options will feel the Crypt/J-Lo loss. But overall the subformat will be fine. It will continue to grow and it'll be just as fun.
The bans themselves make sense. As you said. You argued well, and I can't fault any of the logic. However, excluding the context of the bans shuts down a lot of debate. Excluding the financial aspects also shuts down a lot of debate. Even if everything the RC has done is completely above board and no one had a prior warning (including WoTC), it still looks bad. The festival in a box is particularly questionable. The implications of the ban are hugely disruptive and undermine trust in the RC and Wizards. Something you highlighted, the bans of these cards in other similar variant formats, is not something that even the most enfranchised player is aware of. Surely, the RC should be the people in charge of keeping an eye on that sort of thing and informing the player base. There has been a definite failure in communication somewhere. Commander as a format is too bloated. There are simply too many cards, and the banlist itself makes no sense. Some of it is from the early days of the format. As an example, why no Library of Alexandria? How do the og duals fit? Where does Timetwister land? What does the cEDH data indicate about Sol Ring? What is the cut-off point for percentage representation of any card? Again, with the communication, if we were told ahead of time that a certain level of card inclusion would potentially lead to a ban... And so on. Personally, I think the whole thing was badly handled and has left me without trust in the RC or WoTC. Not that my trust was high to begin with, but this certainly reinforced any doubts I had. To follow on from that, why would you believe that the RC's statement about it not being targeted at cEDH is true? Is that not just some sort of damage limitation? Anyway. Thanks for the video.
The RC has said since the day of the Flash Ban, “We do not take the needs of cEDH into account in assessing the needs of EDH.” They’ve never wavered from that position for an instant. You can be unhappy that’s their stance, but they never, ever hid that stance. People have outright asked RC members, “What happens if the needs of cEDH and EDH conflict?” Know what their answer has always been? “Such a conflict is impossible, because we do not consider the needs of cEDH. If you want to put a negative spin on that, then cEDH always loses.” The wording of the Flash Ban was actually, “This is the ONE TIME we will intervene on behalf of cEDH.” I agree that Jeweled Lotus didn’t need a hit. Mox Diamond is a much bigger offender, but as a RL card, the RC cannot get away with banning it. I also think the RC’s decision was based in part on things they can’t discuss. If, for example, WotC had a better-than-Mana Crypt in the pipeline, and the RC is powerless to immediately Ban marquee mythic Chase Cards, what choice would the RC have really had? Allow *another* 0-cost rock into the format?
I’m not for a new format, I’m for adjusting the banlist for cedh tournaments. I have to follow edh ban lists because that’s what TO’s go off of generally. I’d be all for an addendum adopted by TO’s, that reflect a different ban list for tournament play. As much as I want to play my Jlo/dockside and mana crypt with my small playgroup, we can’t because we attend 3-4 big tournaments a year, and a handful of smaller local tournaments(50-60 people) every month or two. If we played the old(banned) cards, we wouldn’t be playtesting accurately for a tourney. This wouldn’t split the format, I feel. Maybe it would. Does that make sense. Thoughts?
If you open with crypt/dockside/sol ring/jlotus (aces) and land (jack/queen/king) you win instantly and everyone shuffles up again. All commanders have to be female???
This is one of the best takes on the subject. I had not thought on how futile it is to split CEDH from EDH, and how it has been tried before already. You bring many good points and I have shared this video with my community. The monetary value is unfortunate, but this is probably overall good for the format (I had $1.9k in the banned cards myself, lol).
The biggest issue with EDH having any kind of banlist at all, is it is a primarily casual format. When cards get banned from 60 cards, for better or worse, it's based on competitive tournament data. EDH isn't a tournament format, so every ban is going to be based on vibes. It's how we ended up with an insane looking banlist where Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, and Time Vault sit alongside Coalition fucking Victory and Sylvan god damn Primordial. In my opinion, the genuine best thing for EDH as a whole is to completely abandon a banlist. Let casual players rule zero their way to appropriate power level games, and let cEDH players play Singleton Vintage which is what the format basically was.
You weren’t around for the sylvan primordial + deadeye navigator meta. It’s was brutal having someone wipe everyone’s lands over the course of two turns and you could tell do anything about it because they would just blink one of the pieces
@@matthewjohnson3656 I think if your deck can't beat a 6 drop creature and a 7 drop creature that both have to be in play at the same time, you deserve to lose
@@RickHardpack This was ten years ago. and they would drop one creature with protection, then cheat the other into play the next turn and then proceed to destroy everyone's lands. Its definitely not too strong powerwise today but it still creates a miserable play experience.
I feel like having a turn 1 sol ring play is so much stronger than it was before. Previously you could draw/play a mana crypt and be in line for mana against the sol ring player. Now you have less odds
9:00 im not agree with your comparative between nadu and paradox. If you have paradox you have all the mana to use instants, to counter or whatever you want, you will have a "infinite" draw with the one ring etc etc its not the same. Nadu is the same as big Etali clon deck or krark sakasima with the coins and both are still there... Maybe not, etali go away without mana crypt and jeweled lotus but you know
Something I haven't seen any content creator talk about outside of a brief mention by Commedian on The Mindsculptors is whether in a perfect world where the logistical issues surrounding splitting the format were not present it would be better for the community. From what I've seen in my travels, cEDH players seem to be looked down upon and ostricized from the greater commander community as is. To then also be told by our governing body that they don't consider us when making decisions not only feels bad, but further cements that wedge between the two groups. We're already split. We just don't have people looking out for us. I do recognize the logistical problems with creating a new format. But if there is a shot at having a more competitive-focused version of this format aimed at providing the insane power level I'd imagine most of us originally fell in love with, I'm going to support it. Content creators are the face of cEDH to the outside world, and I don't think it's unreasonable to say that if they have doubts and choose just to even entertain the idea it could be huge for the movement.
This was very well put together and thought out. Nice work man. You mentioned a data-driven focus would lend itself to the banning of these 4 cards. I'm curious if the data lends to a similar conclusion for other cards?
For context, I’m a casual player, I play casual from jank worse than precons to just at the edge of Cedh. As a casual player, the two cards I saw the most from these bans were Dockside and Jeweled lotus. On a casual level, I think Dockside was fine, it just sort scaled with table well enough that at its best it just felt like a craterhoof (as in a single card that can end the game with the right board state), but I completely understand the arguments you made for why it’s good that it’s gone in Cedh. Jeweled lotus was miserable. I had a play group where two people opened jeweled lotus’s, and some of the main ways I play edh are ingrained from playing against those players when they put a jeweled lotus in everyone of their decks. I’ve seen Miiryms, Klauths and Proshs cast on turn 2-3 multiple times. I’ve seen control commanders come out on turn 2 before anyone expected, and then survive multiple removal spells due to free counter magic like fierce. I started Miki gaming for removal, adding more removal. I started buying and putting in more artifact hate, all because this one card completely changed how games went. More than dockside and crypt, I do believe that lotus was worse for casual. And once again, that opinion is informed by the play patterns I’ve seen with lotus and more than that, how lotus made it feel like I needed to change not just my deck but my play philosophies.
Thank you!!!! I love thar u Ar not another no sayer and telling u’s what decks are bad… your thoughts are spot on and i love that it slowed Down. Lets try the new format befor we g’et so angry. Thanks for a fresh new video thats not just repeating eweyone els❤
Hey! I recently bought and built your one ring to rule them all deck on moxfield right before these bans came out. Any suggestions on what to replace the 3 cards with, I’m still fairly new so I’m open to any help!
Finally the same take I had. Mana crypt speeds up the entire format while jeweled lotus helped balance larger commanders’ share in the game, given the smaller commanders have free spells
this video is appreciated but I can't help but feel that you missed the boat on a number of arguments. specifically, re: splitting the format, here are some very confusing points you made: 1) you'll run into name recognition problems so when you go to play cEDH at a table, suddenly they're using different cards than you are counterpoint: when have you *ever* roped someone into a game of cEDH who wasn't already extremely well aware of, you know, the format itself? like, I've never met a "casual" cEDH player -- the kinds of people the "metagame within a format" attracts are the very same players who pay attention to said metagame! 2) you mention something about not getting buy-in from people if you split the format counterpoint: the people who play cEDH tourneys will not suddenly stop playing cEDH tourneys because they started using a different banlist; hell, it's possible a more curated banlist would *attract* players because it'd make for a healthier/more interesting meta 3) you bring up, like, tiny leaders and archon and stuff to suggest that no format that splits off can be successful counterpoint: did/do any of the formats you described have a dedicated circuit of tournament providers and large payouts for placing? you simply can't compare a very popular variant of EDH to something like tiny leaders 4) this idea of landing at the exact same banlist counterpoint: a banlist informed by maximizing metagame diversity is not one driven by simple appearance % of a single card; every archetype uses Mana Crypt and, as such, its presence means absolutely nothing as far as the "health" of the metagame! also, a few other points you brought up that are worth responding to: 1) I firmly disagree that Dockside was in any way limiting diversity; I expect this to be born out over the next few months of tournament results where top 16s will increasingly look similar to each other 2) stax (by which I mean creature-based stax) fell to the wayside in large part because of Bowmasters, not Dockside. I'll concede that a stax piece like Blood Moon has gone up in value but simultaneously the most effective stax pieces (Collector Ouphe, Null Rod, Stony Silence) have gone *down* in value 3) I do not believe that ”universally" slowing down the format will result in some increase in slower decks being successful; instead we'll have a deck like RogSi, which has a plethora of fast mana, become comparatively *faster* to a deck like Tivit because now Tivit can't rely on two of its critical pieces of ramp (Crypt and Lotus) final thoughts: I'm a huge proponent of splitting the format. I started playing cEDH to play with powerful cards and have grown tired of the at-times ridiculous banlist posted by the RC; there are countless cards that simply *do not need to be banned any longer*. the implosion of TopDeck could not have come at a *worse* time. the alternative banlist/unbannings they suggested was one of the few things to get me truly excited about brewing in months. edit: I typed this on mobile; apologies for typos or misspellings. if anything needs clarification, let me know!
When I brew it is more can I withstand bow masters. Maybe with rhystic being a little slower bow masters might go down a little. Idk. But bow masters gate keeps a lot too
I was almost done with the video and started writing a comment listing all of the commander-esque formats that have failed to gain widespread adoption. Glad I waited until the end of the video 😂 There are a lot of smart people behind these formats and they have all failed to gain any sort of broad adoption. I think the split group underestimates the benefits of remaining EDH and overestimates the ease of getting players to adopt a new format en-masse. I'm an American, so I definitely understand the impulse to toss the tea into the harbor, throw up the one-finger victory salute to the RC, and declare independence. I really do get it. Beyond the phisplophocal and emotional issues though (no bans without representation!), I think there is precious little evidence to indicate that a split would improve the long term health of cEDH. I think there's a good chance it would diminish it.
Great video. This community response is sort of a heightened version of what I’ve seen in response to significant meta shifts in other games. If people are willing to give it time, I think they will find the meta settle into something fun and healthy eventually.
Mana crypt is the poster child for why I would have two seperate banlists. Dockside falls into the same camp. Jeweled Lotus should have been hit before it was released. Nadu was an obvious design mistake.
I think that the big thing is that people got used to bans being so slow and barely happen. Hence commander players get very attached to our cards and decks because we felt like it was “safe”. So this set of bans showing a huge philosophical change from how it’s worked for years out of nowhere meant everyone felt blindsided and the disaster in how it’s been communicated kind of leaves everyone unsure what is going to happen in the future. Really the main way to fix this is to provide like a schedule for bans and a list of cards or types of cards they are looking at so we know what is coming. For me personally I have just decided to start thinking of EDH in general like I do 60-card formats and think more about decks as disposable and not buying cards I don’t strictly need to play (which is great with the proxy friendliness of cEDH especially). In the end that is almost definitely a much healthier way to think about a magic format as it will lead to me spending a lot less money on cards that frankly could be better spent on something else instead.
I am not a fan of banning lotus but.. I do understand why. I built an Adeline deck for a friend that with lotus powers out his commander on turn1. But overall I’m excited the overall price of cedh has gone down with the banns and I’m hoping I can get goshintai to that level ( slowing down other decks was a serious boost to my slow stax enchantment strategy)
EDH, cEDH… it makes me wonder if there would be enough space for a VDH - vintage dragon highlander… basically commander with vintage banlist- how does that fare? It’s basically no cards banned…
I’ve always thought that there should be a “vintage commander” and a “casual commander” banlist. The vintage list would very rarely change and be for those who want to do powerful stuff like dockside and mana crypt and the casual ban list could be more tailored for ensuring a fun casual experience where cards that are pretty universally agreed to be unfun such as Tergrid could be banned in addition to homogenizing powerful cards. If going to an lgs, you could ask “vintage or casual” and get a good idea of what people are doing and trying to achieve from their game. However, I agree that any change to the format would cause problems and unless it was done specifically by the rules committee, uptake would be low.
I just want to say: thank you so much Ryan for being so organized, open, and wholistic about this banning. We appreciate you!!
Oh man the intro without the usual slogan really set the tone :(
lol never watched before
Thank you for actually playing some games with the new ban list! So many people are getting super mad without even trying out the new format. Your voice stands out as very level-headed and grounded.
Great video. It takes a lot to recognize your own up to your initial emotional reaction as valid as it is and come out later with a great analysis on why everything is ok. Superb explanation and super informative.
Nadu is going to have to reevaluate their strategy. A lot… 13:37
Yeah I reevaluated and decided to move back to krark sakashima
Leet
This is the kind of video that I like. Not a heated video posted the day of about how everything was wrong, but a calculated, thought-out video about how everything is impacting the format. This was really well done.
And as a side note, please be nice to people
If we're voting for people to help cEDH management, then I nominate Ryan to be speaker of the house. Love you and thank you for being a voice of reason and empathy in the community ❤
This feels eerily nostalgic to me, the first video that I saw from this channel was the podcast about flash being banned, been here ever since, thanks for all the content and here’s to many more!
This was spoken like a therapist. So spot on about emotions. I think this was really well thought out and really well articulated! Thank you for this.
Ryan, this is the most eloquent and thoughtful take I have seen about this all week. I volunteer a substantial amount of time as an admin, moderator, brewer, and reviewer for cEDH in a wide variety of spaces. Because of the nature of my position in in this community, I have seen so much ugliness from within our community this week. I love and care about this community, and it hurts my heart to see the constant anger, mocking, and harrassment we've seen. Thank you for taking the time to address the community and share your perspective, and thank you for being kind and caring in your response to this community. It comes as a light in dark times, and I couldn't agree with you more.
I know I'm the minority, but cedh was my escapism. I'm a father of 2. I have a full time job and a mortgage. My once a month cedh night at my lgs is the only me time I get atm. I don't collect, I buy exactly what I need. I was playing Etali and now I have no real replacement for it. It was my favorite deck I've played in almost 3 decades of magic. Can't play it in casual so it's just gone now.
Allen from Mental misplay is experimenting with a new post ban Dino. As a korvold player I’m feeling you tho. I’m gonna probably try and look at some of the Asian meta lists they have been a bit more mid range for a while.
I'm in a very similar situation. I'm a father with a full-time job, and I get twice a month to cEDH with a core friend group. I was attracted to cEDH because of the quick pace of the game. We tried to play casual but the games kept dragging on. With cEDH we get many games in through the evening. One benefit I have is that I play with the same 3 other guys and we instantly agreed to Rule 0 these bans to the void where they belong. Maybe you could propose the same idea if you play with some friends at your LGS?
I've been playing cEDH for 4 years now. I have a cEDH modular deck initiative. Korvold was one of my options, it is now gone.
Godo was another option.
Kraum is partner which is not aa good now.
I've been focussing on K'rrik recently and am one of the sympathetic yet feeling lucky people out there to have a deck which has been only affected a small amount.
I feel you, man. I’m 20 and have been playing competitively for 6 years. I used to grind Modern events at my LGS, consistently getting great results. From the moment I got into Magic, I’ve always played Izzet colors. I still remember a friend showing me some Magic cards, and after googling them, I saw Niv-Mizzet for the first time-I instantly fell in love with his design. I played Niv-Mizzet, Parun in Standard, then in casual, and he’s the reason I stuck to Izzet colors for years in Modern.
A couple of years ago, I got bored with the current Modern meta, so I decided to build a cEDH deck. I started saving up every day, week, and month to buy all the cards, except for Reserved List staples like Volcanic Island and Mox Diamond. What really hurts isn’t the money spent-because I didn’t buy these cards to sell them; I bought them to play. I’ve never cared about the game’s financial aspect. It was about finishing my deck, playing it, and enjoying the game.
I loved collecting the pieces, even though proxies are widely accepted. Proxies were fine for other decks, but for Niv, I wanted the real deal. I felt like not owning the actual cards would be a disservice to him and myself. Now, with Dockside and Jeweled Lotus banned, the deck feels dead, and there’s no other commander that can replace the unique gameplay Niv provided. It was pure fun.
I’ve always believed Commander needed a competitive banlist, because casuals can adjust their games with Rule Zero, but cEDH doesn’t have that luxury. Honestly, I’m considering quitting the game.
Playing cEDH was my way to disconnect and recharge during long study sessions at university. Now, though, it feels like the format is losing its diversity because of bans catering to salty casuals and pubstompers, and that’s really frustrating.
@@d.g4466best of luck to you! I was surprised Etali wasn’t mentioned in this video
I am weirdly split on this banlist. From PoV of casual pickup games, I like the bans. These cards have been warping the casual format at random pickup games/LGS in a pretty negative way, not due to the cards themselves, but due to how recent card design works with them, often leading to non-games or stomps.
It is also surprisingly difficult to make certain players understand just why fast mana is so strong/a problem in casual, due to "but if sol ring is okay, why shouldnt I run crypt and lotus, I pulled them out of a pack and my deck needs them to work". Dockside itself also often is a weird 2 mana "I win" card a lot of the game in casual, with how popular various artifact/artifact token decks are
On the other hand, from CEDH PoV, while Nadu needed to go due to play pattern problems, and dockside getting banned was probably good for the format, crypt and lotus being banned feels like a banning that will hurt the diversity of the format more than it will help. A lot of what I would call fringe CEDH decks such as Urza for example, are hurt by jeweled lotus going a lot more than Kinnan/RogSi/blue farm.
jlotus? maybe. crypt? not really, it will enable slower strategies.
Urza actually gets better. No more dockside means you don’t instantly lose to it.
In hindsight, after a bit more playtesting, Urga wasn’t a great example. There is a bunch of fringe stuff that gets harmed, Niv Mizzet probably being a better example
I think you understand the health of the casual format is all that the RC cared about, they have said before that they don’t take cEDH into any consideration for bans. While yes I agree that it can hurt the meta of cEDH I think time will help discover what might’ve been looked over because of these cards
24:30 My concern is that these bans have not narrowed the gulf between thoracle/breach lines and every other win con. While cEDH at the LGS or online might be more somewhat more diverse, I don’t know that at the highest (tournament) level there will be greater deck diversity. Obviously this could turn out to be the worst take, but it is concerning to me.
You sir, are a vise man. Cred to you for making this video with not only the empathi for those who's feelings been shattered, but also a great way of explaining and compairing with earlier bans or almost bans. I wish this video reach out to all the edh//cedh players and also that they open their hearts and minds to the changes that are happening. Thank you for this.
Just starting this vid I'm gonna quickly list my personal thoughts on the bans.
Dockside: Good fucking riddance. This was just a step too far in terms of fast mana.
Nadu: Probably for the best that this is banned. Manual """storm""" that is even more boring than Krarkashima casting Gitaxian Probe 15 times in a row.
Mana Crypt: I think I'd rather not have this be banned, but it's not a ban I'll complain about.
Jeweled Lotus: This is a ban I will complain about. I like cooking with more expensive commanders and having the potential to rip my commander 3 mana faster than normal is a massive point in favor of the more cooked commander picks.
My thoughts exactly on this list except flipp Nadu and dockside
I also build creature less EDH decks and JL essentially made every commander a viable choice now.
My Legolas will not be dropping JL anytime soon regardless of the ban.
Interesting to hear your thoughts and I especially appreciated your covering the edh spin-off formats and those banlists. I knew some of them, but as you said not most, and it was interesting to learn that EDH, with its ban signposts, not every problem card approach was actually late to banning those particular cards. Provided some helpful perspective on this whole thing. Also enjoyed your tone in framing the conversation you're trying to have. Good job
Great video! we have a huge community of Conquest in Brazil. It's a very good format. Give it a try!
Can attest to how wonderful the conquest community is! It’s a great format and it’s full of great people 🙂
What is Conquest?
The argument about Mana Crypt being auto include. Can't that same argument be used for Ancient Tomb, Gemstone Caverns, and Sol Ring?
Yeah. I don’t understand how these talking heads still don’t get it…
Outside of Sol Ring, Mana Crypt is far more ubiquitous compared to those cards.
Yes
In the article, they specifically mention Sol Ring and admit that it meets all of the criteria that they lay out for mana crypt, but defend Sol Ring by saying "it's fun sometimes"
You are correct about it but I think. It came down to “do we ban like 100 cards or do we pick the stronger options?”
They chose the latter and they also probably don’t want to completely stop all quick mana or potential explosive turns but to make them less consistent. It is a matter of a lesser of 2 evils for this one.
This is one of the few videos I’ve watched this week that’s actually helped me process these bans. Still haven’t updated decks but that’s probably gonna be next weekend’s plan. Thanks for sharing.
I think right now, cEDH is having a bit of an identity crisis. Our format's governing body isn’t interested in catering to our meta, and cards that weren’t a problem for us have been banned for the sake of casual EDH.
We need to decide: are we EDH taken to its logical extreme, or aren’t we? If we are, then we need to accept that this is how things are. Even if we don't agree with them.
I think the bans were too sudden, and handled very poorly by the RC. But bans are also a normal part of every other format. It's very telling that we react this poorly to cards being banned.
cEDH folk need to realize that these cards (especially Dockside and Nadu) warp the meta around themselves and, unless you really enjoy blinking Dockside for the next 50 years, the cEDH meta has been stale for a while and not in a good way.
You need a meta shake-up once in a while and this banlist incidentally provides that.
Now, I don't know whether this will be a good for the format or RogSi will dominate it all, but splitting the formats just so you can play with broken and banned cards is not it. If cEDH splits, a new banlist is in order (ban Rograkh and Thoracle maybe?), and reintroducing Dockside is not a smart move
This is my take on it too. I know a lot of people won't agree (and that's okay) but I've always thought that cEDH is just the rule 0 talk saying we're going to play EDH at the highest power we can. I think limitations are a foundation of the format, that's why we play with color identity. This changes how and what we play, but we'll be just fine.
@@florinalinmarginean1135this is a false equivalence.
Dockside in cEDH would likely face a ban or be heavy restricted at tournament.
So what the OP stated is true.
CEDH is causing and while also being overly affected by bans for casual players.
Dockside being a blow out Win More card in casual while being an interact or scoop card in competitive cause it to get banned in casual games. The peak of the cards annoyance is why it’s gone, which 99% of players don’t even have decks with the ability to do that.
Cedh isn't a separate format. It's just edh played at its most powerful and competitive spirit. Splitting the formats won't do anything. People will just break the new format and technically, a new cedh will be made.
@@mramisuzuki6962 I do not disagree with OP. However, why are cEDH players advocating for splitting the format right after this banlist? They clearly want to reverse the bans, and I don't think it will be healthy for the format.
Anyway, the community seems pretty divided. Some want a split so they can play with these powerful cards, while others recognize cEDH is just EDH, but pushed to its limits, so a split doesn't really make sense
Incredible video! Love the tone and outlook and how well you were able to get your viewpoint across! We need more of this kind of content
I appreciate the words against a split. Isn't Godo also taking a big hit with three less fast Mana?
Godo is fully dead
Basically every commander that has red in their colors and costs 4+ mana. Niv Mizzet, Kraum, maybe Ob Nix. But we shall see what players will do about that. Callahan and Ian talked about Blue Farm because prior to Jeweled lotus, Kraum was somewhat unplayable.
Godo was a deck before Jlotus, it'll be fine.
Godo is totally fine. Those who know how to play it will continue to do well.
@@TheUrDragon25 I've been playing godo for eight years. He lost three of his most important pieces. The only way he could be more dead is if they banned helm.
It's the guy from the voice of Playing With Power MTG!
We need to acknowledge EDH is not a casual format anymore and we cannot keep banning cards using the same logic has 14 years ago. CEDH people need to be the one making these changes from now on.
As a Stax player, this is literally the best news I have gotten all week. I love this ban so much. I am so happy about the fact that the format is slowing down and all of the cards I ran to fight mana rocks and Dockside Extortionist are now empty slots that I can improve and innovate on.
As a stax player I agree! I have recently added blood moon and magus to my Blood pod deck ❤
What a fantastic video! I don't play cEDH personally, but love watching the content, and everything was extremely well-said, in my opinion. You found a great way to summarize everything and gave players options moving forward. So many people fly off the handle and complain about issues, but so infrequently offer solutions! Great work!
The psy op of starting the video saying the bans were bad before making an incredible argument in favor of them was IMMACULATE! Took down all their mental defenses right away, then attacked behind the wall. All while cradling their volatile emotions. Bravo 👏
Great, thoughtful takes. I really appreciate your thorough articulation of these very reasonable views. I massively agree with the majority of them! Glad to see these perspectives being voiced to contrast all the rage.
Thanks for mentioning Rocco. Day 1 in the discord was a bit rocky but the brewers put heads down and we have some solid lists. Tutor in command one is good 😊
Ryan, you as a Godo player and saying Dockside’s ban was OK…mad respect bro.
If you're nothing without jlotus/crypt/dockside as a go fast deck, you don't deserve jlotus/crypt/dockside.
Lovely take and I adore how well you articulated that we shouldnt let our actions be controlled by emotions!
35:36 THANK YOU!!! I've seen so many comments on reddit saying that cEDH should be it's own format which would defeat the purpose of cEDH
Balanced and calm(ing). Well done. Although I'm likely older than you, your consistent "everything's going to be just fine" makes you the unofficial cEDH dad. In all the good ways.
I really like that you summarised it so calmly.
I think decks which traditionally used dorks has come out of this less affected by the bans.
Gitrog for example.
K'rrik is not badly damaged by this, just rely's more on what is left (mana vault, heartless summoning etc.)
I think Magda is ok still, even without Dockside.
Speaking as somebody who was... Very vocal in the cEDH community after the banlist, I've since separated myself entirely from the wildfire debate that's been going on. The level of toxicity that I received both in public and private messages was far too much to bare. It was nearly impossible to have a reasonable conversation with anyone, because emotions quickly got involved. The amount of times I was able to stop the conspiracy theories and revolutionary vitriol for one night, I'd wake up and it'd start up twice as bad.
It's a very volatile time. Maybe I'll return in the future... But I've since completely removed myself from the community. I've been debating on selling off my high-end staples due to how bad things got, because I'm not sure I want to deal with it again. I just hope things get fixed up in the future. Thanks for the great video, PWP.
sorry, who?
Love listen to you. I was very upset with the bans too, but now I’m excited to see what happens with the meta ❤
If you hadn't mentioned that there was no script I wouldn't have noticed. Very good video, very well presented and reasoned points.
Don't worry next year we well have "Jeweled Mox" and "Mana Lotus".
Thassa's should've died too!
Exactly! Wizards of the Coast allowed the RC to make these bans. Wizards is a billion dollar company. They're not going to let 5 random people make these types of decisions on their own. They took the "hit" because they've already made their money. They also probably have some replacements for these cards planned for next year.
You should screenshot this, your prediction is probably a lot closer to being accurate than we’d like to believe.
I think Thassa should have died, and i think Rystic could have taken the hit. That card is kinda hard to track in casual circles, which it looks like this banned list is meant to moderate going forward
The ban list has an emphasis on the casual side of EDH. Thasa's Oracle isn't problematic at casual tables from a power level standpoint. It is arguably a mediocre card that is only made into an effective win condition with very specific (and also arguably bad) enablers. If someone is running Thoracle + Consult shenanigans in casual they're going to get heat for it because that does not reflect the type of experience most casual players are trying to foster in their games. Thoracle almost never "wins on the spot" in casual and when it can, it is probably actually like a pseudo lab-man for decks that try to win by self mill or card draw. It can be played fairly in blue decks that care about wizards, merfolk, top deck manipulation, or devotion to blue strategies. It's not really ban worthy.
A meta game within a format. I really like that description. Some interesting points brought up, which I wasn’t expecting. I was of the mindset that dockside was critical to red decks (playing Rowan myself). I hadn’t considered how ubiquitous it was, ie in ALL red decks, tutors for it, looping, etc. Seeing it laid out this way was enlightening. Same reasoning for mana crypt
Wonderful take on the topic. You mentioned the other formats and I have heard of them because of Moxfield and Scryfall. However I have only played Oathbreaker. I really like Oathbreaker, almost as much as EDH. I must point out that while Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt are banned in Oathbreaker, Dockside is still legal. Not as good though without the fast mana.
On the discussion of the banned cards, I do not agree with Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt at all. I do play cEDH and have recently gotten i to the tournament scene. Top 16 my first tournament (64 players) with Malcolm / Vial Smasher. Not sure how I will pivot the deck now. I used Dockside as an enabler to use Magda to cheat Hoarding Broodlord into play. I could also use the treasures to hard cast Hoarding Broodlord. I also had Dualcaster Loops and of course Underworld Breach Lines. Not to mention Thoracle and Consult. The loss of crypt, lotus, and dockside have really neutered the build. I have a tournament in three weeks and I am not aure what I will do.
Mana crypt was "soft banned" IMO in casual edh, as are many cedh staples, at least in high quantities. No one was okay with a casual deck running all the fast mana and free interaction pieces, even if your commander/win conditions are bad. That is just a bad cedh deck. Sure it is okay to run a mox opal in your artifact theme deck, or a mana crypt in your coin flip deck, or dockside in your pirates/goblins deck, etc.
But there is technically nothing in the rules preventing some one from doing this. Which leading to lopsided public games where people don't abide by the soft bans or have a proper rule 0 conversation. Hence why sadly theses cares are actually banned now.
But its not just these 4 cards that are "soft banned" IMO, it is probably a good portion of the top cedh meta. Mox diamond, sol ring, chrome mox, rhystic study, mystic remora, the one ring, orcish bowmaster, thassa's oracle, demonic tutor, vampiric tutor, underworld breach, smothering tithe, etc. I foresee some of these cards being banned in the future with the recent precedent. And I would agree with those bans! In a casual setting of course. In a cedh setting though, I don't want to play a watered down version. I like you, want to play with the broken cards. Will it take another cedh meta card ban before we say "enough is enough" or just do it now because both formats would be healthier in the long run. Will it be difficult, will it stunt growth, maybe but worth it when "enough is enough".
They aren't really soft banned in casual EDH, otherwise these cards wouldn't demand such a high price tag on the secondary market.
Thoracle is soft banned in casual EDH, even at high power tables, and its price reflects that. Dockside, Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt on the other hand...
People need to realize that casual does not mean most people are playing at precon level. Most of the time, these cards will be played in casual decks, but they won't be abused for infinite combos or along Thoracle
The problem is though no one's actively trying to tell people that they can't do something. I've had people have those cards in their deck and I didn't even know because the only thing they claimed was the deck wasn't cedh. So just like your example, it's just a weak cedh deck but from their perspective it is not a CEDH deck at all.
@@florinalinmarginean1135
Yup! Unfortunately feels like the card assessment skill of a lot of casual players is a bit skewed by sol ring so they feel like "crypt and lotus arent THAT much stronger, they should be fine".
Also a weird case of convincing themselves that since their deck itself is not THAT optimized, using stuff like crypt/lotus/dockside is completely fine, since what they are going to be using that mana on is "fine", and then are confused when they randomly pop off/stomp the pod with T2 voja
@@shaedeymamlas5496 you don't even need to go that far, I'm 3/3 on Golos players going "no, my golos is totally fair, it isn't that sort of golos" and proceed to cast golos and vomit their deck on the table the turn after. "I'm just casting triplicate titan and MH3 emrakrul for free, they die to path/swords, it's fine". "i'm only running darksteel colossus and not blightsteel, it's a meme deck" I mean, it really is the mana boost/cheating that is the issue there more than the cards, but that doesn't diminish that they are strong cards.
@@Starkipraggy on topic of “my deck is totally casual”, my absolute nemesis is Yuriko. I’m so far 3/3 on Yuriko players stomping the table then after being asked how they built the deck, they go “Well, I looked up competitive Yuriko, then removed demonic consultation&thassa’s oracle and a couple other cards, so this deck is roughly power level 6-7 or so, your decks just suck”
Not sure what it is about Yuriko in particular, but feels like the commander just draws in players either wanting to pubstomp or totally clueless
A long watch, but this definitely opened my eyes to the other side of the argument. I appreciate the thorough discussion; you made some great points. I'm still salty, but definitely more understanding now 😊
I appreciate this take and that you took the time to compose yourself and collect your thoughts before responding. You obviously have a deep understanding of the format and can articulate a nuanced explanation of what to expect as the dust settles.
Jlo will be missed. I never played it and some commanders certainly abused it, but I believe it promoted deck diversity, at the end of the day.
Nadu will not be missed. Sure, it was absolutely annoying to watch the deck durdle, but there are so many other unhealthy play patterns layered on top of that. One of the most frustrating being to have your removal spell draw Nadu the interaction to stop your removal. The value Nadu provided was both immense and overly difficult to hinder, which is a combination that easily creates issues.
Very good address of the idea of splitting the format!
I think it would be interesting to see a fully powered meta, like a vintage/cedh mashup. Maybe not a "no banlist" meta but one where the p9 is legal.
As for casual edh, these bans are great and might have gone farther in my opinion.
You very briefly mentioned Bowmasters, but just on that point, I firmly believe the purpose of bans should be making weak decks more viable as opposed to putting a handicap on strong decks.
Just to briefly explain with some cards people often want banned, as I've said in another comment how I believe banning fast mana hurts slow decks more than fast decks.
Thassa's Oracle, it's strong, yes, maybe too strong, but with the fast mana among other things, decks could counter it, this should be supported, banning Thoracle doesn't just mean the card, it effectively removes a playstyle (one you may not enjoy, but some people do)
The One Ring, blue is very good at drawing cards, and the strongest colour by a long way, with or without the one ring blue will have card advantage, the ring being colourless gives each other colour some sort of option to compete, supporting other colours, not nerfing blue
Bowmasters, basically is the reason (parts/most of) green isn't playable at a high level, banning it creats more viable deck options in the meta while not significantly hurting black because bowmasters isn't a strategy or namesake of any deck and is replaceable
Personally I view Bowmasters in Dockside on the same level, but that's just me 🤷. The thing about those two cards are that your being punished by just playing the game. With Dockside your punished with just playing alot of artifacts and enchantments. With bowmasters you're punished by drawing extra cards. I think Bowmasters is worse and more toxic because you don't even have to be the one drawing extra cards and you're still getting punished. Having all your mana dorks shot down and killed. When you haven't even drawn a second card :///
@simplexius9250 Dockside unfortunately was abused and therefore I understand it's banning and avoided putting it alongside Thoracle and The One Ring in my comment, however with the way it scaled with table power it was a good tool, I.E. if I bring a cEDH deck to pubstomp my casual LGS, Dockside is typically one of the worse early rituals in my deck, however if I drop a handful of fast mana and an opponent plays a Dockside, it doesn't make us even but it gave them some kind of chance, these are of course extremes, but effectively it had the ability to close a gap in power imbalance.
Granted it made people less likely to dump a hand full of rocks, but it didn't make treasures by oppressing those players (it wasn't Hullbreacher), looping it made it strong enough to deserve it's ban, outside of that (in an ideal world where things aren't ever abused) it was a great catch up tool that made a burst of mana to compete with opponents explosive starts
strong decks are beating you regardless of the "catchup" cards, you make 4 treasures with your dockside? They clone your dockside and now you're put in a difficult situation of "sac treasures and get 0 value because weak deck doesn't have that many instant speed plays" or "give strong deck 4+ treasures to take over the game even harder". One ring? you put in 4 mana into yours, they clone it for 2 and start drawing with that + their own draw effects.
@Starkipraggy so your argument is that you shouldn't play good cards to try to keep up with good decks, because the good deck might clone your good cards? 🤣🤣🤣
@@KingSkinny-ww2pl I'm not saying you shouldn't run them, but stronger decks are better positioned to take advantage of the stronger cards. You happen to draw your mana crypt to cast aatraxa on turn 5, I vamp tutor for crypt and T2 rhystic study for card advantage and am constantly able to hold up U for counters. Banning big swingy mana cards forces a more level playing field since a player wouldn't be able to get as far ahead on board as before.
I for one love the bans! For context I main Atraxa, and I see a lot of people say the deck died, but I beg to differ! I've been trying my hand at playing crucible of world effects coupled with exploration to ramp past my opponents and slingshot past them. And it hasnt been that bad as of yet, just being able to basically go up a card each turn I would have missed a land drop makes a world of a difference.
I mean this with every bit of my heart. I hope to see you and like minded others establishing our own RC for cEDH.
Wow! That was the most clearheaded, intelligent discourse on the matter I have heard from any content creator. I have only dabbled in cEDH, but your words were incredibly insightful and resonant regardless. I would encourage you to reach out to some of the big channels like TCC and the Command Zone and invite those creators to watch this video in full; you have gone far beyond the insights those outlets have provided, and getting this kind of thinking out to an even greater number of commander players would open a lot of eyes and jump start the “healing process” in the wake of the recent bans.
But of course, the elephant in the room: what is your take on WotC’s new stewardship of the format?
I'm sure this comment has been made dozens, if not hundreds of times below. But thank you Ryan! You and your team at PWP are a huge reason that I got into this format, and your opinion brings a much needed voice of reason to the discussion. I, like you, was angry at first and was considering finding another hobby/format to play. I appreciate you putting voice to what many like-minded individuals have already thought, that while these bans "sucked" at first glance, they might end up being good for the format in the long term and bring back strategies that were once seen as too slow into the fold. Thanks for doing what you do!
I like the point about clones, but lotus to me felt like it enabled bad table politics mana was getting so easily avalible we were seeing atraxa in cedh and it was getting powered out consitently on turn 3 ,8 mana consitently turn 3 and this only came from the laters of mana generators we had avalible.
I would say the use for clones spiked hardest when atraxa came out and we had great reason too, people were playing 8 mana commanders with nuts etbs and everyone else ssid clone just got better.
If my whole stratagy is generate absurd amounts of mana and slam my commander repeatedly until it sticks its kinda unfun tbh.
The game is less of creative interactions and more of everybody whos not atraxa better have a cpunter ready and w can all take turns not letting that player play, the guy olaying the big commander does nothing but ask if he can cast his now 12 mana commander on turn 5 for the third time to see if the table has it again. And the whole table gets to save interation and let other big threats slide with because of the impending doom of the atraxa cast for the 4th time.
Its not competitive its roll the dice did i have enough fast mana to make 8 by turn 3 ? Very glad that shits gunna get dumpstered.
If a meta is clone heavy it probably means the threats are crazy good, and if crazy good threats are everywhere what do you interact with? If you cant interact with the crazy good threats becuase there is so many of them why play interaction? If your not playing interaction and fast mana and crazy effects are easy to come by why not kust jam like a clam ?
Basiclly we were going backwards, interaction was dropping expeneive effects were on the rise and people were slowly leaning into sharing
Gotta say ur takes were awesome I’ve been tired of everyone saying their decks are dead and the format needs to be split.
It makes me super torn. On one hand it makes me realize how big the format has gotten on the other it made me realize that not everyone is into Cedh for the same reason I got into the format. End of day Cedh is just no holds barred cutthroat commander splitting it off makes it not that. My first deck was paradox Joihra when that got band I swapped and brewed another version untill flash got big and I left. I realized that meta wasn’t for me and left to eventually come back when it was. Some of yall may need to do that and that’s ok.
Cedh has eras we just entering another one.
I'm thinking about building Sram storm now that Dockside count doesn't matter.
Cards used to be banned for being expensive which is why timetwister was the only legal card from the p9 because it was cheaper than the rest, not because it's power.
Feels nice to see some careful, reasoned, logical takes coming out of the wood work now that the heat of the moment has passed.
Great video. I thought your points were articulated very well.
Thanks for the video. In all honesty, as a player thinking about entering the format and wanting to play Heliod, this ban actually makes it seem like I have an ability to actually be involved in the format with at least a fringe playable deck. I appreciate your thoughts!
I feel like my ob deck took a monster hit but I'm going to keep figuring it out dammit. I love ob
Great take Ryan. This actually has me wanting to get back into cedh.
So nice to see more discussion on Conquest. It's such a fantastic format
By far, best and most complete pov about stuffs happened. Even if my grixis pirate was just f*cked up, now i m more confident about the future of format
Thank you for making this video. I really liked it, even though our viewpoints are different.
As an example, for reference, I play a lot of 7 point highlander. Which if you know canadian highlander is a 60 card variant of that, pretty much. There are three carss that are worth 5 points of your 7 when building decks, ancestral recall, time walk, and mana crypt. Let that sink in for a moment. Mana crypt is the same amount of points as time walk and ancestral recall. It was no surprise to me that mana crypt got banned, based on that data, as you pointed out, mana crypt is one of the most powerful carss in this game. Mana crypt is more points to play than black lotus. And there are still decks that point for it. Thats 80% of your total allotted points tossed into one card. 7 point highlander uas been around as long as EDH has so theres a lot of data on this from that standpoint.
I am not happy about this ban.
But i do think these cards had it coming.
I get the cedh = edh argument. I do. I really do. I also feel that after the growth over the last few years it has really become its own thing(reminded of the post-Ravnica/Theros rotation when Modern got really popular with player growth and loving/upgrading their various decks), and if there isn't a split then.... I would suggest that there needs to be more work (and honestly more bans) from the RC to delineate power levels for us, as this does nothing to fix the "rule 0" / "it's a 7, bro" issue, which I feel is actually the main problem and is just gonna keep coming back up and maybe even get worse.
So like how WotC controls 60-card constructed - modern, legacy, vintage, etc - let the CAG/RC set some edh "format" expectations. Like, let a cedh tier exist, with fast mana, coalition victory, no flash, and the izzet otter. Let the people play with the stronger, faster stuff. Call it Daft Punk, idc. Then a more casual one (names are a work in progress, clearly) with the current banlist. Whatever the baseline "vision" is for EDH. Then another one, with no free commander spells, even less fast mana(and maybe it's just me, but if I was grim monolith, mana vault, or mox ___ I would be pretty worried about how long I have left right now), flash unbanned, etc. And then one for straight Battleship.
And seriously tho, free the izzet otter. Banned as companion, whatever. He did nothing wrong.
So uh, holy shit - this is what wotc is apparently doing. Whoa.
As a main Duel Commander player who plays some cEDH on the side, Dockside Extortionist is perfectly reasonable in a 1v1 setting. Unlike Commander, traditional aggro is ubiquitous in the format and your opponent might not even have a single artifact or enchantment for it to do anything. Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt are a different story however. Remove them from the ban list and the pitchforks come out.
turns out triple the opponents is all the dockside fun!
A well thought out response. I was, like so many, dead set against the bans. I think I'd got used to the fact we hadn't had any real impactful changes for some time and these were some big hits effecting many cEDH decks. I still feel that cEDH "could" have handled keeping Crypt, J-Lo, and to some extent Dockside in (the latter less so as it did warp some of the builds). But I see how these did not work well in more casual commander. After hearing the thoughts of creators like yourself I have come to the same conclusion regarding any potential cEDH split; it is not a realistic option. But EDH/cEDH will continue. A handful of deck strategies have become unplayable with the loss of dockside, and some higher costed commander options will feel the Crypt/J-Lo loss. But overall the subformat will be fine. It will continue to grow and it'll be just as fun.
The bans themselves make sense. As you said. You argued well, and I can't fault any of the logic.
However, excluding the context of the bans shuts down a lot of debate. Excluding the financial aspects also shuts down a lot of debate.
Even if everything the RC has done is completely above board and no one had a prior warning (including WoTC), it still looks bad. The festival in a box is particularly questionable. The implications of the ban are hugely disruptive and undermine trust in the RC and Wizards. Something you highlighted, the bans of these cards in other similar variant formats, is not something that even the most enfranchised player is aware of. Surely, the RC should be the people in charge of keeping an eye on that sort of thing and informing the player base. There has been a definite failure in communication somewhere.
Commander as a format is too bloated. There are simply too many cards, and the banlist itself makes no sense. Some of it is from the early days of the format. As an example, why no Library of Alexandria? How do the og duals fit? Where does Timetwister land? What does the cEDH data indicate about Sol Ring? What is the cut-off point for percentage representation of any card? Again, with the communication, if we were told ahead of time that a certain level of card inclusion would potentially lead to a ban...
And so on.
Personally, I think the whole thing was badly handled and has left me without trust in the RC or WoTC. Not that my trust was high to begin with, but this certainly reinforced any doubts I had. To follow on from that, why would you believe that the RC's statement about it not being targeted at cEDH is true? Is that not just some sort of damage limitation?
Anyway. Thanks for the video.
The RC has said since the day of the Flash Ban, “We do not take the needs of cEDH into account in assessing the needs of EDH.”
They’ve never wavered from that position for an instant.
You can be unhappy that’s their stance, but they never, ever hid that stance. People have outright asked RC members, “What happens if the needs of cEDH and EDH conflict?”
Know what their answer has always been? “Such a conflict is impossible, because we do not consider the needs of cEDH. If you want to put a negative spin on that, then cEDH always loses.”
The wording of the Flash Ban was actually, “This is the ONE TIME we will intervene on behalf of cEDH.”
I agree that Jeweled Lotus didn’t need a hit. Mox Diamond is a much bigger offender, but as a RL card, the RC cannot get away with banning it.
I also think the RC’s decision was based in part on things they can’t discuss.
If, for example, WotC had a better-than-Mana Crypt in the pipeline, and the RC is powerless to immediately Ban marquee mythic Chase Cards, what choice would the RC have really had? Allow *another* 0-cost rock into the format?
I’m not for a new format, I’m for adjusting the banlist for cedh tournaments.
I have to follow edh ban lists because that’s what TO’s go off of generally. I’d be all for an addendum adopted by TO’s, that reflect a different ban list for tournament play.
As much as I want to play my Jlo/dockside and mana crypt with my small playgroup, we can’t because we attend 3-4 big tournaments a year, and a handful of smaller local tournaments(50-60 people) every month or two. If we played the old(banned) cards, we wouldn’t be playtesting accurately for a tourney. This wouldn’t split the format, I feel. Maybe it would. Does that make sense. Thoughts?
ryan just delivered a whole therapy session for free. props.
Ryan it surprised me not at all that you had the most thoughtful, reasoned take. Please keep doing what you do
b&sEDH. It's EDH but with Blackjack & Strippers
I can get behind that!
If i could make gif's on youtube id make one with bender saying this
If you open with crypt/dockside/sol ring/jlotus (aces) and land (jack/queen/king) you win instantly and everyone shuffles up again.
All commanders have to be female???
This is one of the best takes on the subject. I had not thought on how futile it is to split CEDH from EDH, and how it has been tried before already. You bring many good points and I have shared this video with my community. The monetary value is unfortunate, but this is probably overall good for the format (I had $1.9k in the banned cards myself, lol).
Awesome video and well thought out opinions, thank you.
The biggest issue with EDH having any kind of banlist at all, is it is a primarily casual format.
When cards get banned from 60 cards, for better or worse, it's based on competitive tournament data. EDH isn't a tournament format, so every ban is going to be based on vibes. It's how we ended up with an insane looking banlist where Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, and Time Vault sit alongside Coalition fucking Victory and Sylvan god damn Primordial.
In my opinion, the genuine best thing for EDH as a whole is to completely abandon a banlist. Let casual players rule zero their way to appropriate power level games, and let cEDH players play Singleton Vintage which is what the format basically was.
No banlists, use tierlists instead. Removed the deck power level convo, unites cedh and commander, and means all cards have a home.
We already don’t play our cEDH decks on a regular power 6 table… we can just drop the banlist altogether and reinforce rule 0.
You weren’t around for the sylvan primordial + deadeye navigator meta. It’s was brutal having someone wipe everyone’s lands over the course of two turns and you could tell do anything about it because they would just blink one of the pieces
@@matthewjohnson3656 I think if your deck can't beat a 6 drop creature and a 7 drop creature that both have to be in play at the same time, you deserve to lose
@@RickHardpack This was ten years ago. and they would drop one creature with protection, then cheat the other into play the next turn and then proceed to destroy everyone's lands. Its definitely not too strong powerwise today but it still creates a miserable play experience.
I feel like having a turn 1 sol ring play is so much stronger than it was before.
Previously you could draw/play a mana crypt and be in line for mana against the sol ring player.
Now you have less odds
Yo I drank the dune-juice. Tatyova shows the fuck up in a few months
9:00 im not agree with your comparative between nadu and paradox. If you have paradox you have all the mana to use instants, to counter or whatever you want, you will have a "infinite" draw with the one ring etc etc its not the same. Nadu is the same as big Etali clon deck or krark sakasima with the coins and both are still there... Maybe not, etali go away without mana crypt and jeweled lotus but you know
Something I haven't seen any content creator talk about outside of a brief mention by Commedian on The Mindsculptors is whether in a perfect world where the logistical issues surrounding splitting the format were not present it would be better for the community. From what I've seen in my travels, cEDH players seem to be looked down upon and ostricized from the greater commander community as is. To then also be told by our governing body that they don't consider us when making decisions not only feels bad, but further cements that wedge between the two groups. We're already split. We just don't have people looking out for us. I do recognize the logistical problems with creating a new format. But if there is a shot at having a more competitive-focused version of this format aimed at providing the insane power level I'd imagine most of us originally fell in love with, I'm going to support it. Content creators are the face of cEDH to the outside world, and I don't think it's unreasonable to say that if they have doubts and choose just to even entertain the idea it could be huge for the movement.
This was very well put together and thought out. Nice work man.
You mentioned a data-driven focus would lend itself to the banning of these 4 cards. I'm curious if the data lends to a similar conclusion for other cards?
For context, I’m a casual player, I play casual from jank worse than precons to just at the edge of Cedh.
As a casual player, the two cards I saw the most from these bans were Dockside and Jeweled lotus. On a casual level, I think Dockside was fine, it just sort scaled with table well enough that at its best it just felt like a craterhoof (as in a single card that can end the game with the right board state), but I completely understand the arguments you made for why it’s good that it’s gone in Cedh. Jeweled lotus was miserable.
I had a play group where two people opened jeweled lotus’s, and some of the main ways I play edh are ingrained from playing against those players when they put a jeweled lotus in everyone of their decks. I’ve seen Miiryms, Klauths and Proshs cast on turn 2-3 multiple times. I’ve seen control commanders come out on turn 2 before anyone expected, and then survive multiple removal spells due to free counter magic like fierce. I started Miki gaming for removal, adding more removal. I started buying and putting in more artifact hate, all because this one card completely changed how games went. More than dockside and crypt, I do believe that lotus was worse for casual. And once again, that opinion is informed by the play patterns I’ve seen with lotus and more than that, how lotus made it feel like I needed to change not just my deck but my play philosophies.
Thank you!!!! I love thar u Ar not another no sayer and telling u’s what decks are bad… your thoughts are spot on and i love that it slowed Down. Lets try the new format befor we g’et so angry. Thanks for a fresh new video thats not just repeating eweyone els❤
This thought process must be why i love your deck building the most
Hey! I recently bought and built your one ring to rule them all deck on moxfield right before these bans came out. Any suggestions on what to replace the 3 cards with, I’m still fairly new so I’m open to any help!
Finally the same take I had. Mana crypt speeds up the entire format while jeweled lotus helped balance larger commanders’ share in the game, given the smaller commanders have free spells
Great video! Thank you for sharing it, I look forward to watching many more
this video is appreciated but I can't help but feel that you missed the boat on a number of arguments.
specifically, re: splitting the format, here are some very confusing points you made:
1) you'll run into name recognition problems so when you go to play cEDH at a table, suddenly they're using different cards than you are
counterpoint: when have you *ever* roped someone into a game of cEDH who wasn't already extremely well aware of, you know, the format itself? like, I've never met a "casual" cEDH player -- the kinds of people the "metagame within a format" attracts are the very same players who pay attention to said metagame!
2) you mention something about not getting buy-in from people if you split the format
counterpoint: the people who play cEDH tourneys will not suddenly stop playing cEDH tourneys because they started using a different banlist; hell, it's possible a more curated banlist would *attract* players because it'd make for a healthier/more interesting meta
3) you bring up, like, tiny leaders and archon and stuff to suggest that no format that splits off can be successful
counterpoint: did/do any of the formats you described have a dedicated circuit of tournament providers and large payouts for placing? you simply can't compare a very popular variant of EDH to something like tiny leaders
4) this idea of landing at the exact same banlist
counterpoint: a banlist informed by maximizing metagame diversity is not one driven by simple appearance % of a single card; every archetype uses Mana Crypt and, as such, its presence means absolutely nothing as far as the "health" of the metagame!
also, a few other points you brought up that are worth responding to:
1) I firmly disagree that Dockside was in any way limiting diversity; I expect this to be born out over the next few months of tournament results where top 16s will increasingly look similar to each other
2) stax (by which I mean creature-based stax) fell to the wayside in large part because of Bowmasters, not Dockside. I'll concede that a stax piece like Blood Moon has gone up in value but simultaneously the most effective stax pieces (Collector Ouphe, Null Rod, Stony Silence) have gone *down* in value
3) I do not believe that ”universally" slowing down the format will result in some increase in slower decks being successful; instead we'll have a deck like RogSi, which has a plethora of fast mana, become comparatively *faster* to a deck like Tivit because now Tivit can't rely on two of its critical pieces of ramp (Crypt and Lotus)
final thoughts: I'm a huge proponent of splitting the format. I started playing cEDH to play with powerful cards and have grown tired of the at-times ridiculous banlist posted by the RC; there are countless cards that simply *do not need to be banned any longer*.
the implosion of TopDeck could not have come at a *worse* time. the alternative banlist/unbannings they suggested was one of the few things to get me truly excited about brewing in months.
edit: I typed this on mobile; apologies for typos or misspellings. if anything needs clarification, let me know!
Great podcast! I loved the conclusions
When I brew it is more can I withstand bow masters. Maybe with rhystic being a little slower bow masters might go down a little. Idk. But bow masters gate keeps a lot too
Rip pretty much any Jund cedh deck
Dargo + Ikra T-T 🪦
We are locked into WOTC's "consume new product" machine, can't wait to see how many broken staples are printed next year!
As a Niv-Mizzet main with Korvold as their (only) secondary deck, this banlist update is giving me a bit of a challenge.
I was almost done with the video and started writing a comment listing all of the commander-esque formats that have failed to gain widespread adoption. Glad I waited until the end of the video 😂
There are a lot of smart people behind these formats and they have all failed to gain any sort of broad adoption. I think the split group underestimates the benefits of remaining EDH and overestimates the ease of getting players to adopt a new format en-masse.
I'm an American, so I definitely understand the impulse to toss the tea into the harbor, throw up the one-finger victory salute to the RC, and declare independence. I really do get it. Beyond the phisplophocal and emotional issues though (no bans without representation!), I think there is precious little evidence to indicate that a split would improve the long term health of cEDH. I think there's a good chance it would diminish it.
“Better to die fighting for freedom then be a prisoner all the days of your life.”
Tiny Leaders is out here taking strays. Leave my fun 1v1 format alone. Let it die in peace.
Great video. This community response is sort of a heightened version of what I’ve seen in response to significant meta shifts in other games. If people are willing to give it time, I think they will find the meta settle into something fun and healthy eventually.
Completely agree about Yuriko. The bans combined with the MH3 MDFC lands has really pushed that deck to another level.
Mana crypt is the poster child for why I would have two seperate banlists. Dockside falls into the same camp. Jeweled Lotus should have been hit before it was released. Nadu was an obvious design mistake.
I think that the big thing is that people got used to bans being so slow and barely happen.
Hence commander players get very attached to our cards and decks because we felt like it was “safe”.
So this set of bans showing a huge philosophical change from how it’s worked for years out of nowhere meant everyone felt blindsided and the disaster in how it’s been communicated kind of leaves everyone unsure what is going to happen in the future.
Really the main way to fix this is to provide like a schedule for bans and a list of cards or types of cards they are looking at so we know what is coming.
For me personally I have just decided to start thinking of EDH in general like I do 60-card formats and think more about decks as disposable and not buying cards I don’t strictly need to play (which is great with the proxy friendliness of cEDH especially). In the end that is almost definitely a much healthier way to think about a magic format as it will lead to me spending a lot less money on cards that frankly could be better spent on something else instead.
The RC said they don’t take cedh into consideration. How do we move forward with them actively not taking cedh into consideration?
I am not a fan of banning lotus but.. I do understand why. I built an Adeline deck for a friend that with lotus powers out his commander on turn1.
But overall I’m excited the overall price of cedh has gone down with the banns and I’m hoping I can get goshintai to that level ( slowing down other decks was a serious boost to my slow stax enchantment strategy)
EDH, cEDH… it makes me wonder if there would be enough space for a VDH - vintage dragon highlander… basically commander with vintage banlist- how does that fare? It’s basically no cards banned…
I’ve always thought that there should be a “vintage commander” and a “casual commander” banlist. The vintage list would very rarely change and be for those who want to do powerful stuff like dockside and mana crypt and the casual ban list could be more tailored for ensuring a fun casual experience where cards that are pretty universally agreed to be unfun such as Tergrid could be banned in addition to homogenizing powerful cards. If going to an lgs, you could ask “vintage or casual” and get a good idea of what people are doing and trying to achieve from their game. However, I agree that any change to the format would cause problems and unless it was done specifically by the rules committee, uptake would be low.